Posted by
ryuzaki0
on from the do-we-use-the-Sun-icon-or-the-MS-icon dept.
djradon writes: "According to this link, Microsoft and Sun have settled the Java lawsuit. Looks like Microsoft won't be supporting Java in any way, anytime soon, which is too bad because I think the ability to write COM components in Java was the best development option for IIS."
CS degrees aren't supposed to teach you a specific language. Hell, they're not even supposed to teach you to program; any moron can learn to do that, just look at slashcode. They're supposed to teach you how to THINK about programming, and how to solve the problems that come up while programming in an effective way. These solutions are ENTIRELY independent from language. Perhaps their are significant differences between philosophies for, say, OO languages and other languages (although this is debatable); in any case, a CS degree earned today should be usable regardless of language.
Besides, is ANY accreditted institution giving degrees based on a single language? Where I am, you need to know C/C++, Java, CL, and MIPS assembly to even have a chance at graduating.
Actually, I got to UW-Madison in Wisconsin, and with the exception of a 1 credit c++ class by e-mail, another c++ class you can't get credit for if you're a CS major and a little bit of machine language that's only good on MIPS-RISC systems, all we do here is java, and I am indeed at an accredited university.
Don't get me started on this!...Too late!
If I could design the curriculum of a CS degree, it would throw out the mostly useless mathematics (at least to CS majors), such as "Calculus", and replace it with lambda-calculus, intuitionistic logic, and automata theory. I would probably have Kleene's classic book "Introduction to Metamathematics" used as the core book of the course track. Also, introductory courses in mathematical philosophy would also be required.
The problem is that I believe in the importance of foundations for understanding... not notches on your resume.
Finally, let me repeat the importance of all CS students reading the notable mathematician's book: Introduction to Metamathematics by S.C. Kleene. Sure, most of the material that is covered in the book has most likely been covered in a combination of automata theory, logic theory, and descrete math text books, but never will you read a book with such insight. There is a reason that this computer science book has been in print for about 50 years now. Truth lasts forever.
I think.Net will be a resounding flop. MS is trying to price itself out of the market.
Businessmen do not like being pushed around, and MS is getting pushy with business. I don't think most business would want to trust MS with their data.
---
IE can stand for Internet Explorer or Industrial espionage. Maybe both.
And why should they trust them?
They were hacked twice. In the same
time period I might add. Why would
people trust their data to a company
that can't protect their own?
--
M$ stock dropped in 1/2 since last year. If you are a MCSE, you will be broke.
Both C# and the CLI have both been submitted to the ECMA org. Sun has yet to do this, and this model, together, is a very viable alternative to Java (which Sun will not release it's grip on), plus has some performance gains.
Sun's failure in standardizing Java will be either an M$ or IBM gain. Their licensing costs are rediculous...
IL is probably the coolest thing since Java, IMHO.
*BUT*, the problem is, is that the 'write once, run anywhere' solution to the problem only exists on MS-brand products. Hardly anywhere, now is it?
Java will remain prominent simply because of this fact...
However, if MS were to write.NET runtimes for other operating systems and IL compilers for various unix-centric languages (such as perl, which *is* coming for windows), java would be so brick dead it would be rather sad and hilarious at the same time.
Simply put,.NET is another rare thing in microsoft, a great, wonderful thing, only to be limited by the short sightedness of a short man with a short man complex.
I think.NET will be a resounding success and the pricing is on purpose to encourage the growth of Application Service Providers by making owning your own servers unattractive. As we know, it seems Microsoft is headed towards renting access to applications and this pricing will limit the producers of services to those who can afford the development costs, not like in the days of VB3.
Microsoft's problem is that there is no real reason to upgrade Microsoft Office or even Windows 98. The current versions do what 95%+ of people need. In order to ensure an on-going revenue stream they need to change their business model to a subscription service model where they charge you for the same application every month.
They will port.NET to other platforms because it will be the services that will be important, not the platforms. Microsoft is betting on having the best services. They have already won the office suite wars and they have been steadily accumulating the raw materials for services such as the electronic rights to images.
Without exception, all the non-technical people I know would love to have a simple on/off device that gave them access to a range of applications for a monthly fee. They hate upgrades, backups, and everything else that is not directly related to getting their work done.
Even more in favor of this are small businesses of fewer than 50 employees (to pick a number at random) because they cannot really justify the cost of a full-time IT person.
People will trust Microsoft with their personal data. People already trust their bank, their accountant, their doctor, their dentist, their lawyer, their realtor, etc. With careful marketing of image, an ASP can be a trusted entity.
As to whether or not businesses will do this, they already do. I know of an insurance company who outsources their IT to a consulting company who actually does the work on a leased IBM mainframe owned and maintained by a third company.
This will happen because it will sneak into corporations like PCs did. At first no real business would run on anything but a mainframe. Then, as PCs became accepted at home because of hobbiests and early adopters, small businesses began to use PCs because they couldn't afford "real" computers (I remember accounting packages that loaded from cassette and ran in 64K being used by small businesses). Pretty soon all companies had PCs because they couldn't afford not to, competively speaking.
Since this new approach is what Microsoft wants (remember the constant revenue stream is desired) and Microsoft controls the vast majority of the bottom end of computers (i.e., the same place that PCs snuck in to begin with) this will happen.
From Microsoft's perspective this has the additional benefit of defanging the accusation of leveraging their operating system to the detriment of others. They will now be able to claim that they operate on an ECMA standard platform and anyone can implement it.
The new consulting (services) company between Microsoft and Anderson is a sign of this as well. Those consultants will advocate spreading IT costs across time periods in nice predictable amounts rather than the current spikey model where the spikes are caused by an unwanted upgrade cycle. This will be irresistably attractive to accountants and CEOs who hate surprises in the quarter's bottom line.
I expect the XBox is the precursor of something that will become a SOHO terminal that is as hard to work as a light switch.
The big question is not "Will.NET succeed?" it's "What can advocates of free software and open source offer that is as attractive?".
People who haven't looked at.NET or who write it off as a lame alternative to Java/J2EE should look into it more and watch The Show at MSDN.
To whet your appetite: one feature is the ability to browse the web from your IDE, locate a server offering a.NET service, see all the functions and parameters that are available for accessing that service, and then include that service (complete with IntelliSense prompting in the editor) as just another component.
While this subscription model might look good to some businesses who always upgrade their software with each new release, I don't think individual users will go for it.
I will not pay a monthly fee to run software when the ability exists to install it once and have it run forever, free of additional charge.
If new software becomes available with new features, I and I alone will be the one to decide if I want it or not.
This subscription scheme just means you still pay for software "upgrades" every 6 or 12 months, only now the software might not have anything new in it, it could be exactly the same.
How is this concept new or interesting in any way?
Why not just go out and buy a big f*ck-off UNIX machine and run apps remotely over X?
Run Java apps remotely over X if you need a well designed OO authoring environment and GUI, and run JSP/Servlets or applets if you need web deployment. There are a plethora of other options, from elegant Python to the heavily bracketed LISP and most all of them cost you nothing, are proven and tested from years of abuse and most of them have been integrating XML since the day it was suggested by the W3C.
And you can do it today, not at some unspecified time in the future, after applying 6 service packs, paying for n client licenses and being told to pay for an upgrade to the next version to really see it work properly.
All the stuff that.Net offers is here, and has been for years. Like we don't have enough middleware?
The addition of XML-wrapped messages in proprietary binary format is going to revolutionize the industry??
I just don't get what problem they are trying to solve, unless it's 'What should we do to delay Microsoft from getting destroyed by Linux/BSD, Apache and Java in the server room?'.
I mean, you only have to look at the NetCraft server uptime statistics to see how well Win32 stacks up against the rest.
They must be smokin some pretty good crack up in Redmond
-- I gots ta ding a ding dang my dang a long ling long
X doesn't do the same job as.NET..NET allows a developer to create an application that contains different components that are supplied as services.
It is true that you can accomplish much of.NET with server-side Java but there aren't the development tools to allow things like dynamically discovering self-documenting services on the network. Also, Microsoft is working with ECMA and can claim to PHBs to be more "open" than Java.
Add to that the fact that you can trivially create projects with components made in different languages that are full peers to each other (a COBOL object can extend a C# object and the result can be invoked from Visual Basic all from inside the same IDE).
Applets are dead. Microsoft has seen to that. I recently revisited applets to see if any improvement has been made and the Java plugin fails to even install on my system. This problem is a known bug which has been known for several months. If I had to download the plugin over a dialup connection I would have been really annoyed!
I am pretty certain Microsoft will port.NET to Linux and other OSs (probably as a version a shade less than whatever is available on Microsoft platforms) because the the real battlefield has moved past that and into services.
For most users there will be no service packs or client licenses and that's the point. The only people who will have to worry about those issues will be the service providers. All the end user (individual or business) needs to worry about is "Did we pay our IT services bill?".
Go talk to any non-nerd individual or small business and ask them which they would rather have: systems and software they own but have to take care of themselves OR a service they don't have to maintain and that is accessible from anywhere, for a modest monthly fee.
The problem for most people is this: they buy a system then install whatever they need for the next 18 months.
Then they find they want/need some new application which requires a newer version of the operating system or a more powerful CPU. At this point they are out of luck. They don't know how to upgrade, they've never done a back up, and quite possibly they need more powerful hardware anyway.
These are the people who would much rather pay an extra $10 or $20 a month to the cable company to get access to all the latest software with never a worry about anything else.
I am pretty certain Microsoft will port.NET to Linux and other OSs
I think you're fooling yourself. We all know that.NET is going to be yet another way for MS to try to bind people to it's operating system. It used to be stuff like games and Office document formats, but as more and more popular games are ported to other platforms, and open-source office products start supporting MS Office formats, they've got to move to something more drastic. MS will never port.NET to anything except Windows for the exact reason that Halo won't be released on the PSX2... it's the hot new product, and if you want to use it, well... you'd better be using the MS product. It's the sad truth.
-----
-- "Cut word lines. Cut music lines. Smash the control images. Smash the control machine." - William S. Burroughs
It is certainly true that it would be typical for Microsoft to not port.NET to other platforms but I think the game has changed and that the underlying platform is no longer relevant. The main competitor to.NET is J2EE and in both cases it is in the best interests of the advocates to hide as much of the underlying platform (Windows, Solaris, Linux, OS/390,...) as possible and to focus on universal acceptance.
When you consider that.NET uses SOAP when accessing remote services, it seems pretty clear that how to implement the interface to.NET will be hard to keep secret. Also, the Common Language Infrastructure has been submitted to ECMA as a proposed standard so a lot of what's on the server will be known as well. The only place left for significant value is in what the service provides. Here the deep pockets of Microsoft et alia give them a serious competitive advantage over a talented developer in his "garage".
It also solves those pesky licensing and reverse-engineering problems too.:-)
That's true, but given that you can easily snoop the network connection and that a.NET service advertises in a standard way what it can do by describing the function name, parameters, and results; then it seems to me it will not be too hard to figure out what is going on.
>> Java but there aren't the development tools to allow things like dynamically discovering self-documenting services on the network.
Perhaps you are posting without knowing the opposition? Have you not heard of JINI? I quote:
Jini[tm] network technology provides a simple infrastructure for delivering services in a network and for creating spontaneous interaction between programs that use these services regardless of their hardware/software implementation. Any kind of network made up of services (applications, databases, servers, devices, information systems, mobile appliances, storage, printers, etc.) and clients (requesters of services) of those services can be easily assembled, disassembled, and maintained on the network using Jini Technology.Services can be added or removed from the network, and new clients can find existing services - all without administration.
-- and if you think no one is using it, you better look at Seagate, Epson, etc... Jan Newmarch's "Guide to JINI Technologies" even has a chapter to run the LEGO MindStorms as a JINI Service. In fact, here is a link showing the use of the Palm to control the LEGOs via JINI.
I am not sure what issue you have with installing the Java Plugin (since I have it working on every machine here). Perhaps it is your system?
Does it matter if Microsoft ports.NET to Linux, BSD, BeOS, etc? How many of us would even be willing to use it? Besides the inherent incompatabilities Microsoft will most likely FORCE on it, how can you even trust their product to be stable? I can't even get their page about.NET to LOAD from ANY BROWSER! Tell me that is accessible from anywhere.
But enough about justified Microsoft Bashing. I am not denying that people will get.NET because they don't know better (ie: see MSN/AOL) -- but don't fool yourself into thinking that they are creating something New, Unique, or Better.
Having been a Java/CORBA advocate for the last four or five years, I am aware of JINI. What I would like to know is which Java IDE is it that allows you to browse the network seeing service providers as being just another component to be referenced, no matter what language that service is written in?
As for the problem with the plugin, as I said, it is a known and documented problem with jinstall.exe. It is "Bug Id 4393067" and is known since 28 November 2000.
You apparently overlooked the name of my company OpenSourcerers -- I am not a Microsoft advocate! However, to ignore the biggest gorilla on the block doesn't make sense, many people will be willing to use.NET.
I have no trouble viewing the.NET page in any of the browsers I have here (Links, Lynx, Opera, Netscape, and IE), perhaps it is your system?
You seem to have missed the gist of what I have been saying: I think Microsoft has concluded that the Era of the Platform is over and that we are entering the Age of the Service.
``This settlement will not impact our customers or current products in any way and will allow us to focus our time and resources on what we do best: developing great software.''
If thats not a big lie, I don't know what is
-- "The heresy of one age becomes the orthodoxy of the next" - Helen Keller
In defence of the monolith, they did pay Sun $20m in order that they can continue to sell their current line of pseudo-Java products. So, like they say, their current customers and current products are not affects.
I think MSFT actually believes this. Consider that MS morphed Java into a COM producing language. The rest of the market went over to CORBA with Java as middleware. In the MS grand scheme, it really means that they have one less language to "COMify", ".NETify", and support.
In a way, MS is now able to concentrate C#. Maybe that's what they wanted all along.
So they'll be dropping ALL Java support? As in, no more VJ++, no JVM, and no Java support in IE? What the hell am I supposed to do with the two semesters of intro programming in Java I'm taking? Java is required here!!
If your two semesters involved VJ++ then you never learned Java. My school teaches Java. They won't use MS software to do it because they actually teach Java. What a concept.
Oh, come on. Both Sun and Microsoft signed the Java licencing deal knowing that it would end in a lawsuit. It was bad faith to begin with -- Ballmer pretty much admitted that in a recent Wired interview. Microsoft would have neve entered into that contract if it was all just $3.5M/Year hunky-dory licencing.
Microsoft's strategy was to pretend to be all behind Java for a few months, get in a fight, and then make Sun out to be the bad guy to their customers. It would have worked too, if crappy browser applets were the only use for Java (see the AC comments on this page for a Microsoftie who still think that).
Sun's strategy was of course to make Microsoft look like the bad guy and themselves like the good guys who fought off extend-and-embrace. The only difference is that Sun generally succeeded, won the lawsuit, and now Microsoft is stuck spending millions of dollars reinventing Java in the form of.NET and then millions more trying to sell it to corporations that are already using Java. --
The frightening thing about Windows development is how much languages need to have the support of MS, to some degree at least. There are a lot of companies that do not see a product, business practice, language or whatever as being valid unles it has MS support and can fit in easily to their existing support package and MS dominated infrastructure. There is no doubt that Java will continue as the main language on the Internet, with Perl, for some time, but this is, nonetheless, not good news for Java.
You know exactly what to do- Your kiss, your fingers on my thigh-
--
You know exactly what to do- Your kiss, your fingers on my thigh- I think of little else but you.
Java was never a language for application development anyhow. You want to develop applications under Windows? Go get a copy of Visual C++.
As you may have noticed, applications development is on the point of being wiped out completely anyway. The ubiquitous browser (in its' various forms) needs connecting to a webserver, some business logic and database. Increasingly the only question being asked about this architecture is "do we use jsp or asp?".
Java will continue to be supported on Windows NT. Sun will make sure of it. And IBM, curiously, seem to have the edge over Sun in this area.
Don't fret. Nothing's changed, it's just PHB fodder.
Its very poorly organized IMHO.
And the data structures are a joke -- most take an object as an argument and return an object... How many people write programs where you assoicate one object with another? -- don't you usually associate an object with a key or an index value ?
So Java needs MS? It's not in any way difficult to add a Sun compliant Java to any MS platform. The minute MS starts breaking that capability, there's more grounds for lawsuits.
-- 7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
I would suggest Borland C++ builder, I've played with VC++ and the only real visual thing I've seen so far is that it shows up on the monitor. Beyond that there isn't much visual desgn to it. I guess it would be ok if the only programs you intended to write were multi-window programs.
Check out C++ Builder, its a visual development tool.
-- If ignorance is bliss, the world is full of blissful people
No, Java does not need MS, and MS doesn't need Java.
A common excuse for not implementing a Java solution in at work is that there is no one "Java", with MS Java now unsupported and out of the picture, business can say "Oh, okay, now there is only one 'Java' (This meaning the JVMs and JREs from Sun and IBM type big boys) so we can develop in it and know that it'll work across JVMs.
Of course, one could argue Java sucked in the first place, but since it is the only language I've bothered to learn, I can't complain.:-)
Java NEEDS to be able to run under Windows 9x/ME/NT/2000 because that's -85 percent- of the market for desktop and small server computers out there.
In short, if you want to make money with any commercial product based on Java, you have to be WIN32 API compatible in the first place. That's why even Sun's own work on Java have to include WIN32 API support, because despite what Sun thinks of Microsoft, they know that the vast majority of Java installations have to run under Windows, like it or not.:)
I don't see MS doing anything against Java soon either. Many software titles have some Java glued in, games and business apps. They install the Sun Java runtime libraries and do their thing. As long as Sun doesn't abandon Java entirely, there's little MS can do about it except sit and pout.
The only tool, utility, or application I have encountered recently which used Java is the Viewlet builder.
While that util is pretty cool, I just don't see the popularity of Java being all that strong. At least not in the Windows desktop arena, and certainly not on the Windows server, where COM and ASP dominate.
Take a class on Object-Oriented programming. Java hides the messy passing of pointers and references since that was the BIGGEST mistake made by C/C++ programmers (myself included).
It is actually quite natural to pass objects back and forth. If I want to call a routine called "getImage", why the hell should it return "45" or something instead of a GIF or JPG?
When programming in C/C++, you usually will use pointers (*) or references (& or -> or . or whatever)... If you get them mixed up (like A LOT of C/C++ programmers do) it makes your program unstable or not work at all.
I was simply stating that you don't use them in java. sure, they are behind the scenes, but you are NOT going to use the wrong one.
What do you mean inconsistent? You pass in your variable name in all cases.
I completely love Java through and through. However, I'm glad there will be a language similar to Java that embodies many of the same features, i.e. C#. This will lead to both languages competing with each other (hopefully) and in the end produce more options and better products. This lawsuit makes me wonder if C# would even exist if Sun weren't so protective of Java.
If Sun weren't so protective of Java, Microsoft would have already exercised its extend and embrace muscle and made a proprietary version of Java that only worked on Windows.
That's what started this fight in the first place, Microsoft started making proprietary extensions to its version of Java which produced apps which only ran on its OS. Sun didn't want Microsoft putting the Java logo on such a mongrel.
-- Education is a better safeguard of liberty than a standing army. Edward Everett (1794 - 1865)
Personally, I think this summarizes it best. From Sun's press release:
"Microsoft has proven time and again that it is unwilling to abide by the common rules of the internet," Sueltz said. "Its behavior with regard to the Java technology was just one instance. And when presented with the choice of compatibility or termination, Microsoft chose termination."
Microsoft.NET is just another guise for Microsoft to bid on interoperability while assuring that only Microsoft official platforms are recognized as first class citizens. You can be completely sure that there will be APIs that are not published, and that other parts will be so poorly documented that they might as well not be, and so on. It will inevitably turn into Win32 over the Internet, and if you're not running Win32, you're on your own. Microsoft is only interesting in interoperability when it really equals migration to an all-Microsoft platform. The Microsoft Exchange connectors for Lotus Notes and Novell Groupwise don't exist because Microsoft has a desire to have their systems co-exist. They exist so that you can slowly convert your existing systems to Microsoft systems.
-- I used up all my sick days, so I'm calling in dead.
I'm not suggesting that the man page system is better. I'm slamming Microsoft's incomplete documentation, not it's poor documentation compared to unix systems. It's frustrating looking through an API header file, seeing all these prototypes for API calls and not having any way of finding out what it does. And it's infuriating to see those same API calls used by other Microsoft products, and still be completely clueless as to what they do.
-- I used up all my sick days, so I'm calling in dead.
Do marketroids never quit?
by
Mike+Van+Pelt
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· Score: 1
This Microsoft press release has an embarrasing ammount of "rah-rah" cheerleading, right up there to the same level as Steve Jobs in full blast at MacWorld. (There goes my karma; both sides will moderate me down now.)
Sure, I expect a press release to be from the releaser's point of view, and even a bit of spin, but really, it ought to be toned down from "preaching to the faithful" levels for a general press release.
Re:Do marketroids never quit?
by
greenrd
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· Score: 1
They basically have to do it to save face - just think how embarassing it looks for MS to settle, pay $20 million, and yet be stuck with Java 1.1.4!
Of course, people like us just read it and laugh, but this is primarily aimed at investors, and some investors can be very stupid.
Of course, with their own little improvements, starting with the name- Microsoft C#. Let's hope it falls flat.
One thing's not clear to me though. Does the new license deal allow MS to keep the non-compliant Java in IE, or will users have to use the Java plugin? As a developer I hate to force users to trouble with installing a plugin even though it makes things so much easier for me. No "native" Java support in IE might actually help C# can ground if IE maintains 90% market share and makes Java inconvenient. I think I'll pull for Java though.
The original link WAS Microsoft's side. Did you see the "SOURCE: Microsoft Corp." at the bottom? Or perhaps did you notice that there were quotes from Microsoft officials but no quotes from Sun? And how likely is is that an indepenent journalist or Sun would include the following: "About Microsoft
Founded in 1975, Microsoft is the worldwide leader in software, services and Internet technologies for personal and business computing
"
If Java on the desktop was usefull it would be a threat to MS. Unfortunately Java on the desktop has been mostly hype (please note I qualified that with mostly, YOUR spinning cube is amazing).
Given that it's relatively useless and a potential threat it's no suprise MS dumped it.
It appears Java's future lies on the server.
When are we going to get a good OO language that isn't hung up on this crossplatform binary compatability?
Microsoft is still acting like a big dog
by
stuce
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· Score: 1
This is awesome.
Everyday it seems like Microsoft is doing more and more to dig it's own grave. It's still acting like it's the big dog in town and can just decide which standards it will choose to use and which it wont. The only two places java really matters is on servers and in browsers. And while they may own the browser market at the moment they cant NOT support it because Sun can just make a an ActiveX control that embeds it. But the DON'T own the server market, not even close. Their avarice will lead to their own extinction. It's only a matter of time.
Sun's take http://www.sun.com/2001-0123/audiocast/
by
Software
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· Score: 1
Nice 'about' line in this impartial news item..
by
eightball
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· Score: 2
About Microsoft
Founded in 1975, Microsoft is the worldwide leader in software, services and Internet technologies for personal and business computing.
The company offers a wide range of products and services designed to empower people through great software -- any time, any place and on any device.
I realize this is a Microsoft press release, but I was half expecting an entry follow it saying something regarding Sun. Humor escapes me at the moment, but you can imagine what they would like to say..
Humorous post without a punchline? Down, please..
Re:Nice 'about' line in this impartial news item..
by
Felinoid
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· Score: 1
Ehhh:) It's not inaccurate and not abnormal..
The only thing I can think of is how could someone be on-line and read this artical and not know who Microsoft is...
Sun maybe less so but any investor worth his salt (Yahoo.. news for investors.. stuff that makes money) should allready know who Sun is...
Yeah... just to make things clear, _without_ sounding too much like a dick, the article was begotten via PR Newsiwire, which is a press release channel. It's basically Microsoft's official spin on it. Nothing more, nothing less, and having nothing to do with journalism.
``The Microsoft.NET platform is the best way to build, deliver and aggregate Web Services, and Microsoft is committed to helping software developers build Web Services with whatever programming language is most appropriate for their particular needs.''
Well, this seems to be the party line for the forseeable future.
While the Technology looks promising, the big problem is their track record. Ultimately, the old saw of never buying version 1.0 of anything is very true of MS products.
This is just my opinion, based on my experience. Even if I want to trust that vision, I find that I cannot. I have been burned too often. In each case, it as a matter of a litte less value, for a little more money. Maybe I exagerate, but that is what it seems like.
and so I make a comment only slightly tongue in cheek when I saw that I am slightly concerned about the World Wide Web becoming Microsoft's fishing.NET
It makes me nervous.
-- "It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
Why would a company, who's soooo good at monopolizing everything, support something that is similar to c#?
Bob the Destroyer
YAPC (Yet Another Pissing Contest)
by
Colz+Grigor
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· Score: 2
To preface: I use both Sun and Microsoft products regularly. I am not a fan of Microsoft, but I also don't care much for Sun. I still think NeXT kicks both of their asses and it's been dead neigh-on half-a-decade now.
Anyway...
It's been interesting to look at how Microsoft and Sun have gone head-to-head in the open market in the past. I am talking about the competition to Microsoft's Office suite found in the form of Sun's StarOffice. A lot can be said about the advantages and disadvantages of each respective product, however Microsoft will probably always be the market leader for office products.
In the end, I think it comes down to which company has the better marketing machine behind them. The key to seeing which platform (C# vs. Java) will rule the industry will be found in the Marketing Expense columns of each company's balance sheets.
::Colz Grigor
--
Re:YAPC (Yet Another Pissing Contest)
by
ScumBiker
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· Score: 1
You know, as far as I can tell, Star Office is simply a M$ works clone. Well, not exactly, but pretty close. Of course, it runs on *nix, so that does make it cool, but I really can't see it being a competitor to M$ Back Orifice^H^H^H^H^H^H^H Office.
I am just starting to learn Java myself though. Luckily I've got Linux on my laptop...
Frankly I'm glad M$ has dropped Java. Now we should be able to get somewhere with it. No worries about proprietary extensions. No need to wonder if it will compile on that AIX box. Cool stuff.
Microsoft lose all rights to 'Java Compatible'
by
tjwhaynes
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· Score: 4
To me, this looks like a major hiccup for Microsoft. Under the terms of this agreement, MS has permanently lost the rights to the Java Compatible trademark. From the Sun press release:
With the contract terminated, Sun and Microsoft have agreed to end the current litigation, initiated in October, 1997 before Judge Ronald M. Whyte in U.S. District Court in San Jose, under the following general terms:
The Court will enter a permanent injunction barring Microsoft from using the JAVA COMPATIBLE trademark. Previously, the Court found that Microsoft had distributed incompatible implementations of the Java technology, and the court entered a preliminary injunction barring Microsoft from using the JAVA COMPATIBLE trademark on these incompatible products.
To protect developers and consumers who have already invested in Microsofts implementations of the Java technology, Sun has agreed to grant Microsoft a limited license to continue shipping essentially as is its currently shipping implementations of the outdated 1.1.4 version of the Java technology. Those products have already been modified to comply with injunctions secured by Sun in the litigation. The license covers only the products that already contain the Java technology, and lasts only for seven years.
Beyond that, Microsoft has no rights to distribute the Java technology, or to otherwise use any of Suns intellectual property.
To those who believe this sounds the death knell for Java, think again. Microsoft is now in the unenviable position of not being able to use the most widely recognised java trademark, while its competitors (Sun, Netscape and others) will be able to capitalize on it. This agreement is even wider than Java, stopping MS from licensing, distributing or making use of any of Suns Intellectual Property either. That may make C#'s passage into the world a little tricky if Sun has much of the Java technology patented...
C# doesn't cut it. It's not here now and Java is and has been for six years.C# is still months off release and even at the first release it won't get wide use until the development tools and toolkits catch up. That will hurt.
Cheers,
Toby Haynes
-- Anything I post is strictly my own thoughts and doesn't
necessarily have anything to do with the opinions of IBM.
Re:Microsoft lose all rights to 'Java Compatible'
by
prisoner
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· Score: 1
I'm not sure that I agree. It doesn't seem like much has happened to java in the last year. I think now that MS's path is clear to them, they'll grow c# as fast as possible and I just don't think Sun has the resolve to do a hell of alot about it.
Re:Microsoft lose all rights to 'Java Compatible'
by
Ig0r
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· Score: 2
The College Board is also switching it's AP CompSci language from C++ to Java in 2003.
That's millions of lost dollars from schools who would have otherwise bought microsoft Java IDEs, and an enormous loss of mindshare in future programmers.
--
-- Soma: because a gramme is better than a damn.
Re:Microsoft lose all rights to 'Java Compatible'
by
SectoidRandom
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· Score: 1
Yes, I think this worked out brilliantly for Sun, first they introduced Java years ago with all the hype, etc, M$ 'incorporated' it into their plans, the language took off, now that its a 'standard' (of sorts) M$ can't use it.
Sun has succeded in stopping the "Embrace and Extend" policy of M$, good for them! And us!
Re:Microsoft lose all rights to 'Java Compatible'
by
Ig0r
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· Score: 1
They apparently think that C++ isn't OO enough, so they're switching to java.
--
-- Soma: because a gramme is better than a damn.
Re:Microsoft lose all rights to 'Java Compatible'
by
dondiego
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· Score: 2
re: logo
MS hasn't used the "compatible" logo since 1998... Why would this be a major hiccup for MS? Sounds to me like business as usual... If MS's competitors haven't capitalized on that fact in the last 3 years, I'm not sure they quite understand that part about competition...
Re:Microsoft lose all rights to 'Java Compatible'
by
crivens
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· Score: 1
I'm sure that Microsoft won't care about using the Java trademark, as they're focusing on their.NET technology.
Re:Microsoft lose all rights to 'Java Compatible'
by
MrBlack
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· Score: 1
C# is already "out" in a fairly stable beta. Visula studio.net isn't too far off either. I think it will be developer inertia, not a lack of product, that will slow C#'s uptake.
Re:Microsoft lose all rights to 'Java Compatible'
by
civilizedINTENSITY
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· Score: 1
I said APPLICATION not cross platform abilities. You just don't seem to get it. Or do you really think you could write an application in c# today and run it on our Physics dept.s SGIs? Without cross platform abilities you couldn't even write a "notepad" application. Please get a clue.
Re:Microsoft lose all rights to 'Java Compatible'
by
IntlHarvester
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· Score: 1
Last year, I read an interview with Ballmer in PCWeek or something. He pretty much admitted that there was *lots* of customer interest in better Java integration on Windows machines. But, it was all Sun's fault that there wasn't, so blame them and get them to drop the lawsuit.
This was all before.NET, so I doubt you'd hear anything like that now. But it shows that Microsoft has percieved that fighting Sun over Java hurt them. (But anyone following IT knows that Servlets/JSP has been the hottest internal development tool since, well, ASP -- and MS has totally cut themselves out of that market, and not being in a market is the worst thing from MS's own point of view. Their fault for making the same stupid assumption that most Slashdotters have made that Java==Applets.)
So, now Microsoft has to fight back with a Java work-alike (.NET), but they've lost years with this lawsuit and lots of mindshare. The only really smart thing about.NET is that it supports VB as a real peer on top of the VM, so it allows MS to get their curly brace-fearing allies in on the act. --
Re:Microsoft lose all rights to 'Java Compatible'
by
NeoMage
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· Score: 1
Microsoft hasn't used the "Java Compatible" logo on their products since 1998, so how is this a loss?
Re:Microsoft lose all rights to 'Java Compatible'
by
TummyX
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· Score: 1
C# doesn't cut it. It's not here now and Java is and has been for six years.C# is still months off release and even at the first release it won't get wide use until the development tools and toolkits catch up. That will hurt.
.NET development tools are already lightyears ahead of java development tools.
And the class libraries are already richer than java's. The first release of the classes includes collections, regex, reflection, interop, xml, soap etc. How long did it take java to get those?
Microsoft can develop much faster than sun can. Already there are numerous websites running on the beta of.NET and ASP.NET.
Re:Microsoft lose all rights to 'Java Compatible'
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 1
Java is just a watered down version of C++! If C++ isn't "OO enough" Java certainly isnt. No programmer is dumb enough to think that since Java forces main to be a static method of an object that makes Java "more OO."
Smalltalk is a "real OO" language. So is Ruby. Python is pretty close. Java is so similar to C++ in terms of object-orientedness that its downright silly to make any distinction between them.
Re:Microsoft lose all rights to 'Java Compatible'
by
cyber-vandal
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· Score: 2
Are there? URLs please.
Re:Microsoft lose all rights to 'Java Compatible'
by
LordNimon
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· Score: 1
C++ lets you write non-OO code. I don't know anyone who always uses "cout " for all output. There's always a printf() somewhere. But with Java, there's no choice - you have to make your code OO, and that makes it easier to teach these concepts. There's no room for laziness with Java. --
-- And the men who hold high places must be the ones who start
To mold a new reality... closer to the heart
Re:Microsoft lose all rights to 'Java Compatible'
by
jafac
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· Score: 2
This would have been GREAT news for Java, two years ago. . .
What was that other poster's sig about the courts running the clock out?
-- These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Re:Microsoft lose all rights to 'Java Compatible'
by
TummyX
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· Score: 1
Sun should have dropped their suit against Microsoft, atleast if Microsoft had kept their license and hadn't been sued Java would have taken off as a programming language-- now with Microsoft support due to die in seven years (if I read the report correctly) we can welcome C# in for the long haul. Java can still proliferate on Linux/etc, but I just don't see it making the kind of impact it could have had with Microsoft involved.
-- All I know about Bush is I had a good job when Clinton was president.
Re:Goodbye Java, hello C#
by
donglekey
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· Score: 4
A few points:
1. Java has done very well without Micrsoft support. I agree that Micrsoft support would be optimal, but I think that java is good enough that it doesn't need it, even though it could benefit from it.
2. Microsoft was not really supporting or helping Java or Sun all along. They did some shitty shit with Visual J++. They put "windows only" extensions and nullified the whole point of Java, thus screwing over programmers, themselves, and Sun to an extent, while at the same time blatantly breaking the licensing and contracts that they had with Sun for the development of a Java IDE.
3. I love java, but where it works best right now is Windows, which is rediculous. If it is to have a bright future on other operating systems, which I completely believe it does, it will need to have everything be more syncronized and not come out with different OS versions at different times. It shows disrespect for their own cross-platform philosophy.
just my $.02 on your third point - I develop on Solaris and deploy on HP/UX. I've never had a problem and so far, everything has been quite speedy. No complaints here.
anyone seriously thought that MS would continue to support Java. MS loves the bait and switch. "Here, we support OS/2....'cept we call it Windows NT." I still remember using NT3.5 and getting !!OS/2!! errors. The strange thing is that MS doesn't seem to mind burning millions until they figure out what exactly to do about an emerging technology. They jump on the bandwagon, pour cash into something and then just take what they think is good....dunno....
I'm going to write that off as hearsay. Lots of parts of NT are from OS/2 (including the bootloader, apparently straight off), but you wouldn't mistake a Blue Screen for a OS/2 Panic. --
Founded in 1975, Microsoft is the worldwide leader in software, services and Internet technologies for personal and business computing. The company offers a wide range of products and services designed to empower people through great software -- any time, any place and on any device.
Are they serious? Is this section for all those readers of Yahoo Business News who had never previously heard of Microsoft?
It's a press release from Microsoft directly (read the part where it says 'Source'). EVERY company that does press releases gives some sort of history of the company for investors. Sure, you'd have to live under a rock not to know who they are, which I suppose might be your point, but there ARE an awful lot of rocks out there. =)
-- All I know about Bush is I had a good job when Clinton was president.
Yeah, I'm always surprised when a "news" service just reprints press releases verbatim. I shouldn't be, but I am. So why didn't they reproduce the nice letterhead it was faxed in on too?;)
MSFT Bashing in this case bogas...
by
djMaxM
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· Score: 5
MSFT wrote the best and fastest compiler for Java hands down when Sun started this stupidity. RMI was a freakin' mess, Netscape caused half of it, and then Sun comes after MSFT. There are cases where MSFT does some annoying stuff, like forcing MSN bookmarks in IE, but this one I can't fault them for.
I give a big middle finger to Sun for blowing what Java could have been.
Re:MSFT Bashing in this case bogas...
by
JAK
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· Score: 2
In a word: Bullshit!
Perhaps you mean that Microsoft had the fastest JVM for Java, although you'd have to qualify that to say that it was not Java-compatible. Hell, I've run into problems with M$'s JVM's released a few last summer because they've obviously done some "neat" stuff to make their JVM fly, which, by the way, breaks little things like object serialization. Yes, I'm talking JVM, as the code I've run into problems with (byte-code, that is) ran fine under every Sun & IBM JVM back to 1.1.
RMI was a mess? Excuse me? RMI's a helluva lot more elegant, maintainable, debuggable, etc, etc, than COM...now there's a mess.
Nope, given the choice I'd much rather continue developing on the Java platform. I've been in the unfortunate position of having to work with Microsoft's convoluted brain-dead band-aided API's and I'll take Java over that anyday. The platform independence is a great feature for me(maybe crucial for others), but it's the advantage of being able to crank out more robust, more secure, more maintainable software in less time (and with less gray hairs) that's Java's main attraction for me.
Re:MSFT Bashing in this case bogas...
by
Dalroth
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· Score: 1
Sorry man, Jikes has every other java compiler beat (yes, even Microsofts). As for VMs, that's still up in the air depending upon what you want your VM to do...
Re:MSFT Bashing in this case bogas...
by
Tsujigiri
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· Score: 1
I believe default homepages are evil as well and should just be [blank.html], but that's a different topic.
Why so? I used the free web hosting space to make up a little gateway site for myself (some notes and bookmarks and stuff) and use that as my default page. I quite like it.
It's titled "Damien's Gateway to the Internet, If you're not Damien, why are you here?".
Also, I work at a Teaching Hospital, and my work browser defaults to the University web page. Once the hospital intranet is complete, I'll change to that.
So what's evil about that??
--
"I'll take the red pill. No! Blue! AAAaaaahhhhhhhhh" - Monty Python meets the Matrix
Re:MSFT Bashing in this case bogas...
by
vanillicat
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· Score: 1
Ah, but you see, Microsoft has mainted that their browser isn't unique MS branded "internet explorer" software, but is instead just a tool that is part of the overall Windows OS. If it was truly only a tool, it should not be pushing on its user an ISP (see a few posts up). Your point about it being okay would only hold if MS agreed that the Internet Explorer is more of a unique entity than they say. Sadly, they don't.
Re:MSFT Bashing in this case bogas...
by
rking
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· Score: 1
Think you need to reread the comment you were replying to, or even just the text you quoted. He said "default homepages are evil", not "user selected home pages are evil". Not that either bother me.
Re:MSFT Bashing in this case bogas...
by
lgraba
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· Score: 1
In order for a JVM to be good, it must not only be fast but adhere to the JVM specification. MS' JVM did not do that. Code that was compiled with MS' extensions would only work with MS' JVM. Not only was this not cross-platform, it was not even cross-JVM. It's not like MS couldn't have lived by the rules (the specification and the contract) and provided COM integration; there are a handful of companies that produce tools to do just that. I think its clear (supported by e-mails brought up in the DOJ suit) that they were trying to produce a 'polluted' java.
As far as RMI being a mess, are you kidding? RMI makes it far easier to build distributed systems than any of the other technologies I have used (DCOM, CORBA), and its dynamic code capabilities give it a lot of flexibility and power.
Things are no worse than they were
by
lazar
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· Score: 1
The frightening thing about Windows development is how much languages need to have the support of MS
Actually nothing will change on the Java front. People doing Java development were not using MS development software in the first place as:
a. it sucked horribly, and
b. it was not real Java anyway
And they definitely do not depend on MS, that is the whole point of using Java.
Yes some support from Microsoft is necessary: that of Windows allowing a JVM to run. But it would be pretty difficult for MS to go as far as preventing that don't you think?
There are a lot of companies that do not see a product, business practice, language or whatever as being valid unles it has MS support
Yes, there are. But again, these are not the companies that were using Java in the first place.:-)
Re:Things are no worse than they were
by
CyberKnet
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· Score: 2
Actually, I'm not too convinced that Microsoft thinks it would be taking it a bit far to stop a JVM from running. Remember Win3.* that would not run under ANY DOS unless it was MS DOS? I think Microsoft has absolutely no problem shoving its clout to say "No JAVA on our OS from now on, period"
---
-- Video meliora proboque deteriora sequor - Ovidius
Re:Things are no worse than they were
by
Tim+Macinta
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· Score: 1
Remember Win3.* that would not run under ANY DOS unless it was MS DOS? I think Microsoft has absolutely no problem shoving its clout to say "No JAVA on our OS from now on, period"
I don't think your analogy holds up very well because of one thing - there are already a lot of apps out there that use Java (even if they aren't written entirely in Java). I don't think there were many (any?) apps that required DR-DOS, but there are plenty of apps out there that would need to be largely rewritten if Java ceased to work. If Microsoft intentionally broke Windows so that Java wouldn't run, it would piss off an inordinate amount of current users who are dependent on it. The companies who put out products dependent on Java would have the choice of rewriting their software and not have it work for the next several months (at least) while the new version is developed, or switching to a platform that does support Java (e.g., Linux) to keep their products useful.
Re:Things are no worse than they were
by
Darkstorm
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· Score: 1
I believe this would get them even more enemies. For one oracle relies on java for most of its support tools. Without jave administering oracle would become a pain. Also with third party objects many companies manage to get around some of their licensing issues by using java programs run over thier intranet.
The biggest plus to java is platform independance. I've started learning just for that reason. Although its speed is somewhat of an issue, for some things it is not as big of a drawback as it was.
-- If ignorance is bliss, the world is full of blissful people
Re:Things are no worse than they were
by
TheAncientHacker
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· Score: 2
Remember Win3.* that would not run under ANY DOS unless it was MS DOS?
No. I don't. What I do remember (and I was around then) was a beta test version of Win 3.1 which would only run on a few specific versions of MS-DOS because that was what the beta was actually testing and blocked any other choices. Of course, you may find the urban legend more fun...
Re:Things are no worse than they were
by
jafac
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· Score: 2
Veritas also uses Java for it's VMSA console. Microsoft may want to piss off Sun, and they may want to piss off Oracle, but they sure as hell don't want to piss off Veritas. If MS wants to play in the High Availability server market, they sure as hell don't.
-- These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
You can read the settlement agreement here. The short version is that Microsoft can't use the "Java Compatible" trademark, but can continue to distribute it's version 1.1.4 of Java, for another seven years. Apparently the 1.1.4 version has been modified to pass Sun's compliance tests.
Yet another example of intellectual property rights being used to do the right thing...
Thalia
I always knew they were up to no good
by
Chuck+Flynn
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· Score: 4
Microsoft, I mean. They never knew how to play their hand right. Gates was moneyed from the start, with his father's fortune from the bootlegging days, and Bill's Harvard degree. But he never had the sense knocked into him, y'know?
When I first got started in this industry, it took me thirty years for me to hear the name "Microsoft", and it wasn't because I was off on Madagascar with the lemurs or nothing. It was because Microsoft didn't even exist yet. Didn't even exist. Do you remember what that was like? Some day you kids will tell your young rascals about what it was like to walk to school up-hill both ways knee-deep in AOL cds, but there was a time when these conglomerates didn't exist. That was when IBM was all we needed, the big blue momma. Man, could IBM shine. And then they were shoved out of the PC industry by that devil Microsoft and that whore Intel. I will never forget that day when my boss came in and gave us the news. Wow.
And here's Microsoft getting shoved around by Sun, now. And with the law on someone else's side, too. You never saw IBM make that mistake, no sir. IBM knew how to play its antitrust hand, and IBM knew how to deal with upstarts. IBM is up there next to General Motors in my book, and not just because they made me the man I am (just as GM made me the man I was in the backseat of that Chevy Sport Coupe that summer back in, well darn, it's slipped my mind). Microsoft? No one will remember them in twenty years. Heh, and I won't be around to see it happen, neither.
Sun can keep Java. As long as they don't touch my cobol. It wasn't my first language, but man could I make that baby fly like a greased pig out of an oil can. Object oriented? Object sharing? Classes? My parents' generation taught us in primary school to share, and anything we wanted to learn about classes we learned in the streets with a switchblade. That's why Bill and Microsoft never got off the ground. No common sense. No street sense. If he'd have walked for one mile in another man's long underwear, he'd have known that you don't mess with another man's shoes. Or his Java, either.
Good riddens, Microsoft. I spit on the mockery you've made of us all. You are not welcome at the family barbequeue in Jersey.
Re:I always knew they were up to no good
by
tommck
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· Score: 1
Microsoft, I mean. They never knew how to play their hand right. Gates was moneyed from the start, with his father's fortune from the bootlegging days, and Bill's Harvard degree. But he never had the sense knocked into him, y'know?
Bill doesn't have a Harvard degree. He dropped out. T
-- ----
It puts the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again. It does this whenever it's told.
Re:I always knew they were up to no good
by
Darkstorm
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· Score: 2
Object oriented? Object sharing? Classes?
Well, look at it this way, since the young punks being pumped out of colledges now who think they know it all, and most don't know anything...they need everything broken down into simple terms. since they have pretty much did away with liner programming they had to try and keep the confusion down a bit or no one would be able to use it. Give it a few more years and they will have a language out for the morons which will not require any code be written.
As for those of you out ther just getting out of colledge and you do know something the above statement probably doesn't apply to you. But if you language of choice is Visual basic then it probably does.
-- If ignorance is bliss, the world is full of blissful people
I dare say I'm quite relieved at this, it means less support for Java throughout the industry, and nothing could be better.
Java is slow, worthless, and I'd rather see an OS written in C++ than any application written in Java.
Re:Well I'm relieved....
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 1
The problem with writing an OS in C++ is that there is no well-defined ABI and name-mangling scheme etc. - they keep changing. So, for an OS kernel, where you almost need to know what every byte does to code in any way efficiently, C is much better for predictablility. GCC 3.0 promises to produce at least a de-facto standard C++ ABI, so perhaps things will change in future.
I think MS is too lenient on money hungry shitheads like Sun. They should end all support for anything Java related - they shouldn't even allow Java crapplets to run in their browser.
Like Sun, Oracle, or any other crap ass money hungry company wouldn't piss on Microsoft and leave them for bankruptcy if they had the chance. I don't want to sound too pro-MS here, but when I code in Java at my day job - everyday feels more and more like I am just using duck tape and bailing wire to create uglyness.
J2EE? What a bunch of marketing hype bullshit - I can't believe the industry standard is moving towards this bucket full of crap ass acronyms. Whenever I here a marketing person ask "will it be developed using the J2EE framework" - I want to slap the bitch 2 times with my open hand.
no no. not yay at all, this is terrible terrible news..
if, as i suspect they will, MS remove
java support from IE then my world
will be a much sadder more boring place.
interestingly, as soon as I installed the PDC developers edition (including C# etc) java in the
browser stopped working.
booo..
--
http://switch.to/miles
This will be good for Mozilla!
by
ShawnX
·
· Score: 1
Think about it, if Micro$oft is pulling Java from IE, etc then Mozilla will gain popularity. Some people need java and Mozilla provides this.
-ShawnX ---
--
Everyone wants a Tux in their life.
Re:This will be good for Mozilla!
by
prisoner
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· Score: 1
It might be good for Mozilla but it won't mean dick to the market at large. MS has what, 70% of the market? Of that 70% how many do you think "need" java support....I'd guess about.001% I've got a fast machine and a fast connection and I dump out of pages that attempt to load applets as they are butt-ass slow and fairly useless.
The scary thing about Windows programming is how much languages need to have the support of MS, to some degree at least. There are a lot of companies that do not see a product, business practice, language or whatever as being valid unles it has MS support and can fit in easily to their existing support package and MS dominated infrastructure. There is no doubt that Java will continue as the main language on the Internet, with Perl, for some time, but this is, nonetheless, not good news for Java.
I completely love Java through and through. However, I'm glad there will be a language similar to Java that embodies many of the same features, i.e. C#. This will lead to both languages competing with each other (hopefully) and in the end produce more options and better products. This lawsuit makes me wonder if C# would even exist if Sun weren't so protective of Java.
Everyday it seems like Microsoft is doing more and more to dig it's own grave. It's still acting like it's the big dog in town and can just decide which standards it will choose to use and which it wont. The only two places java really matters is on servers and in browsers. And while they may own the browser market at the moment they cant NOT support it because Sun can just make a an ActiveX control that embeds it. But the DON'T own the server market, not even close. Their avarice will lead to their own extinction. It's only a matter of time.
Don't forget java in the embeded market. Writing programs for PDA's or cell phones in java? hell yeah. The only place java isn't being used very effectily is in desktop applications. Which makes sense I guess, but if more people would write applications in java it might start to make more progress. Also if swing wasn't so slow, but that another story.
Wolfram's Mathematica has Java embedded now as a scripting language. The same way you import mathematica notebooks, you can import java classes, from the notebook commandline. Just as you would call mathematica functions and operators you can call java. Sounds interesting enough I actually signed up for Java this semester. First I made sure they taught Sun's Java, of course!
Looks like Microsoft won't be supporting Java in
any way, anytime soon
I didn't know that Microsoft actually supported Java. When you take a competitor's product, change it slightly so it's not compatible, and call it your own... well, I guess that's just par for the course at Microsoft.
-- "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
Umm...Gates DROPPED OUT of Hah-vahd...
by
MsGeek
·
· Score: 1
Check your facts, Chuck...Bill Gates never got his degree, unless Harvard gave him an honorary degree when I wasn't looking.
----
http://www.msgeek.org/ -- Because you can't keep a geek grrl down!
-- Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
Re:Umm...Gates DROPPED OUT of Hah-vahd...
by
MessiahXI
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· Score: 1
They did.... I guess you weren't....
Re:Hmmm... a better slogan
by
OmegaDan
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· Score: 1
A better slogan might be -- compile once interpret anywhere... I think "run" is getting a bit loose with the language.
"Java is a trademark of Sun Microsystems. Could that be why Microsoft is calling its next J*v*-like product.NET instead of Java? " .NET is language independant. You can use PERL, Java, Python, C#, VB, whatever the hell you want
Oh Great! Re:This will be good for Mozilla!
by
tommck
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· Score: 1
Except That Mozilla sucks ass!
-- ----
It puts the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again. It does this whenever it's told.
Re:Oh Great! Re:This will be good for Mozilla!
by
ShawnX
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· Score: 1
For now, Im sure it'll get faster. It's come a long way since I used it. It can't get any worse then it is now;) ---
The reason Microsoft should be bashed...
by
Gendou
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· Score: 5
We do not bash Microsoft because they deliver poor products. This is utterly untrue. Microsoft Office is the model of every other office suite out there. IE is the ideal browser. Windows has AMAZING hardware support (well, NT5+ does - the Win2000 driver model is genius). Microsoft devotes a VERY large sum of money to research.
Microsoft has many good things about them. But, they have a few critically bad things. These things should be the reasons we bash MS:
1. They monopolize the computer industry and stifle competition.
2. They do not open their source so that other developers can create software on an even playing field with them.
3. They are not responsive to fixing flaws in their systems that are discovered by the community at large.
4. They overcharge for their software and force their clients into a nasty, anti-competetive business relationship.
None of these are "bash Microsoft because their software sucks." Now, it's true that Windows is below par, but that's not the only thing they do.
Calm down. Poor quality software is the *worst* reason to bash a closed-source, inflexable, monopolizing corporation. Fundamental matters of principle carry a lot more weight.
Re:The reason Microsoft should be bashed...
by
istartedi
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· Score: 3
1. They monopolize the computer industry and stifle competition.
They enforce standards and create opportunities. Making a PCI card? Write a Windows driver for it, and the job is done. BeOS? Would never have been started if it weren't for nasty closed source OS's like Windows and MacOS. Now crappy Open Source desktops are starting to steal just enough market to make BeOS a poor business, so they do the only thing they can do, which is to appease the OSS community, but it was the prospect of selling the OS for $70/per that caused them to enter the market with something new and innovative--not the opportunity to "serve the community".
2. They do not open their source so that other developers can create software on an even playing field with them.
And I bet the Giant's offense won't just hand the ball over to Baltimore. What a bunch of bad guys they are.
3. They are not responsive to fixing flaws in their systems that are discovered by the community at large.
When the problem is fixable, they usually respond in a decent ammount of time. Think Linux is better? Consider the recent Linux worm.
4. They overcharge for their software and force their clients into a nasty, anti-competetive business relationship.
Don't like the high price? Try to offer a similar product at a better price. That's what a free market is all about. There is nothing immoral about them charging as much as they like for an OS. You might counter that this takes money from the pockets of organizations like hospitals that offer lifesaving services. The counterpoint is that if they charged less it would reduce the quality of life of employees and stockholders, which can kill just as many people as bad health care (poverty is no better for your health than an x-ray machine that crashes, it just kills in a less dramatic fashion).
Calm down. Poor quality software is the *worst* reason to bash a closed-source, inflexable, monopolizing corporation. Fundamental matters of principle carry a lot more weight.
The attacks levied against companies selling proprietary software are in many cases just the same old attacks that have always come from socialists. When it comes to morality, it doesn't matter how you think things should be. It matters how things will be as the result of the outcome from your actions. History is on the side of a balance between socialism and capitalism, with the preservation of individual liberties being important. In the case of software, capitalism works better on the desktop so far, and socialism is better on the server so far. Individual liberty has been preserved in that people are allowed to create free and proprietary software, and customers are allowed to choose. Let's hope it stays this way.
-- For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
Re:The reason Microsoft should be bashed...
by
Gendou
·
· Score: 5
I'm sorry, but most of your responses here are just too poorly informed to be remarked on. Grr... But I will make a few comments.
And I bet the Giant's offense won't just hand the ball over to Baltimore. What a bunch of bad guys they are.
This comment is ridiculous. Microsoft has a myriad of API's in Windows that they keep to themselves. This gives them a serious upperhand over other software developers and it's unfair because they are a monopoly. Not to mention that your analogy makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. If they give the ball over, they no longer have the ball. And comparing the ball to source is also silly. I am not saying Microsoft give up Windows for free, I am saying that they document their API's so that other developers can use them to make better products. Sheesh. You must not have done well on the english section of your SATs.
Don't like the high price? Try to offer a similar product at a better price. That's what a free market is all about. There is nothing immoral about them charging as much as they like for an OS. You might counter that this takes money from the pockets of organizations like hospitals that offer lifesaving services. The counterpoint is that if they charged less it would reduce the quality of life of employees and stockholders, which can kill just as many people as bad health care (poverty is no better for your health than an x-ray machine that crashes, it just kills in a less dramatic fashion).
First of all, have you ever read any of the reasons the DOJ was going after Microsoft? Their OEM practices are deplorable. But I'll let you mill through archives for info on that. Yes, it is a very bad thing to over charge for an OS when you're monopolizing. Try a similar product? There is much to choose from, but you still have to support the mainstream. If Dell or Compaq suddenly decided that they cannot afford Microsoft's products, and go entirely with BSD, Linux, etc., they'd quickly run out of business because of the MS monopoly. In the medical business, you go to several different companies if you want to buy equipment. They quote you prices. You make your selection based on deals. You cannot do this with MS. The information to make a competing x-ray machine is open and available to everyone. It's in science journals. Designs are public knowledge. No one said "you cannot infringe upon our rights to make x-ray machines." However, Microsoft makes their design closed and unavailable so that no one can make an alternative (instead, we use clean room tactics to get as much as we can, hence WINE), therefore, there is no choice to try a similar product at a better price. If Microsoft turned open source, they'd still have a business. People would choose Microsoft as an authority on Windows, but other companies could make Windows-compatible alternatives that would be cheaper and perhaps even better (then again, the source is a mess).
Ugh. I should give up. People like you infuriate me so much that I can barely form a coherent arguement against your rebutal to my case of Microsoft's wrong-doings in their monopolizing, greedy, and certainly tyrannical business policies. I have nothing against capitalism, of course it's a great system. BUT, evolution cannot occur when there's only one way of doing things and no way to break out of it. And WHY must you go on with this clearly stupid view of OSS==socialism? Socialism is about everyone being equal and surviving equally regardless. OSS is about survival of the fittest! THINK!
Re:The reason Microsoft should be bashed...
by
pi_rules
·
· Score: 2
2. They do not open their source so that other developers can create software on an even playing field with them.
And I bet the Giant's offense won't just hand the ball over to Baltimore. What a bunch of bad guys they are.
I also don't agree with what the originall poster said -- but consider the recent Kerebos extensions fiasco. Opening the code really is useless (or uneeded)... but opening the standard for properly interfacing with existing systems should be expected.
3. They are not responsive to fixing flaws in their systems that are discovered by the community at large.
When the problem is fixable, they usually respond in a decent ammount of time. Think Linux is better? Consider the recent Linux worm.
You mean the worm that only infects RedHat systems? The same one that fixes the hole on infection? The same one thats been patched for months?... and been patched for so long that somebody made a program which can exploit and fix the problem? That's a long time if you ask me... so long that somebody automated the fixing process. When's the last time you saw an exploit for IIS that would download and install the patch for you?:)
Justin Buist ...rambling as usual
Re:The reason Microsoft should be bashed...
by
eV_x
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· Score: 1
Just curious - what API's are you referring to that M$ won't release public docs on, or is that what you've read several thousand times from other people?
Re:The reason Microsoft should be bashed...
by
Bungie
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· Score: 1
Microsoft has a myriad of API's in Windows that they keep to themselves. This gives them a serious upperhand over other software developers and it's unfair because they are a monopoly.
I would have to agree with you there. One of the primary reasons that Internet Explorer is so "fast" is because it uses hidden functions that can work at almost the kernel level. Netscape and other browser developers have never been able to compete for just that reason. That is why IE kills Netscape 4.x on Windows but not on the Mac, because Netscape is able to access the full potential of the MacOS's capabilities. ust watch Wintop when you use IE and when you use something like Opera. What does the second listed task (kernel32) do under IE that it doesn't under others?
-- The clash of honour calls, to stand when others fall.
Re:The reason Microsoft should be bashed...
by
ardiri
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· Score: 1
Just curious - what API's are you referring to that M$ won't release public docs on, or is that what you've read several thousand times from other people?
<sarcasm>
its those API's that cause all those blue screens in Internet Explorer et al:) the "normal" developers follow the API's, so blue screens are less likely:P
</sarcasm>
Re:The reason Microsoft should be bashed...
by
RayChuang
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· Score: 2
I think one thing that hurts Linux is that there is too MUCH choice when it comes to what you can do with Linux.
The result can be an absolute nightmare, especially on large IT organizations that need ease of OS installation and maintainance. That's why Solaris and Windows NT/2000 are still doing well even in face of "cheap" competition from Linux. Even Linux that is pre-loaded on commercial systems are usually the commercial distributions from Red Hat, Mandrake, Caldera, etc.
You can create a "homebrewed" Linux, but unless you're extremely familiar with the innards of Linux it is a major hassle to maintain--and very likely beyond the skill of the majority of computer users out there. It should be noted that the supposedly "home-brewed" versions of Linux distributed for use on college campuses are usually modified versions of commercial distributions from Red Hat, Mandrake, S.u.S.E., TurboLinux, Caldera, and so on.
-- Raymond in Mountain View, CA
Re:The reason Microsoft should be bashed...
by
Glanz
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· Score: 1
Yeah but did you know that Microsoft Office 10 had a "cure cancer" app?
-- Rien n'est plus beau
que le creux du 0.
Re:The reason Microsoft should be bashed...
by
Henry+Lightcap
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· Score: 1
2. They do not open their source so that other developers can create software on an even playing field with them.
And I bet the Giant's offense won't just hand the ball over to Baltimore. What a bunch of bad guys they are.
Let's carry on that analogy. You're absolutely right, the Giants shouldn't agree to just hand over the ball to Baltimore. They spend cash and resource to learn how to play better ball, and how to exploit the weaknesses of other teams. Just the same, there's no reason that M$ should agree to hand over all information and technologies on which they have spent millions in R&D. That's how captalism works and drives companies to create better and better products, just like teams striving to be better and better. But there are rules in any system. Baseball has salary caps to (hopefully) keep teams from forming "monopolies" in the league, by creating the best team, which then creates oodles more money, and *would* allow them to buy the best players, thus continuing their dominance and in the process destroying competition in the league. Antitrust laws, at their conception were designed for the same purpose-- To foster competition. So, the problem with M$ is not analogous to handing over a ball...its more an issue of regulating how much control they have over the marketplace, based on dominance. Once one company (baseball team) gains that kind of dominance in the marketplace, the start to bend exitsting laws (league rules) and begin to control that which they are participating in. That is a bad scenario, plain and simple. Would you watch baseball if the Giants (actually, an analogy to the Yankees may be better here) dictated the rules in the league, thereby reinforcing their dominance in the league they regulate? I doubt it. We all bitch enough as it is... Also, note that it is okay to be dominant and learn to exploit the weaknesses of competitors--thats the point of competition. But the problem arises when the dominance allows you to bend regulation and get away with not following the rules. So, there's your comparision. Do with it what you will.
Nicks suck. Like mine?
Re:The reason Microsoft should be bashed...
by
Waldmeister
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· Score: 1
They enforce standards and create opportunities.
No. A standard is a piece of paper and not a piece of software. Microsoft first makes the software and after that eventually a piece of paper, describing it, which has often been unusable. With a standard, different software companies should be able to compete to provide the best implementation.
Windows is no standard in this sense; Office, too.
And even C# and.NET starting as a piece of paper, the examples are so windows specific, it's mostly doubtfull, that it will get anytime something else than a next generation windows.
What Java technology can do that C# and .NET can't
by
yerricde
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· Score: 5
I dare you to find me an application that java can handle that C# cannot - TODAY.
Three things Java technology can do that C# and.NET can't today, January 23, 2001:
Run as an applet in web browsers on Macintosh computers.
Run as an applet in web browsers on GNU/Linux or Solaris systems.
Looks like M$ is getting things solved...
by
smoondog
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· Score: 1
Slowly and fairly quietly, M$ seems to be cleaning up its high profile cases. Although the government case is the highest profile case I can remember, this is the least number of total cases I can remember in since I've been following M$.
They've shelled out $20M + legal costs to screw Java. That seems much cheaper than developing, marketing, and supporting a truly competing technology. This way, they've demolished Java (be realistic, without MS backing Java will go the way of Pascal) and are free to develop and market their not-so-competitive platform without any real competition.
-- Think outside the... Hey, where'd the friggin' box go?
I would love it if it did. I use pascal every day. Well, Object oriented pascal, its close. Delphi is a wonderful programming environment that will soon be working on linux.
I doubt that all the java programmers out there are going to quit thier jobs or imidiatly switch to a propriatary language just to please M$. All M$ could do is stop java from working and that would put them back in court with sun. So far M$ hasn't done to well in court lately.
-- If ignorance is bliss, the world is full of blissful people
Our best researcher (in a university Physics dept)recommended Delphi. My numerical analysis professor also indicated that he would be pleased if I learned Delphi. I have to admit I'm starting to get curious.
As some people who have never used or worked with delphi seem to think, delphi is not as limited as they want it to be. My opinion is this:
If you are just starting in programing and are a bit intimidated by c/c++ delphi is a good choice since it is easier to learn and will not let you make as many mistakes as c/c++ will allow.
If you have been working in c/c++ and want to program in windows C++ Builder is great.
I believe allot of language have a paticular area they are best used for. Delphi creates nice windows (and soon Linux) programs that are much easier to debug. Java is covering the web/multiplatform area well. Perl for server side scripting. C/C++ is never going to go away soon for system and just about any os programming (shame it never lived up to its multiplatform specs).
If you are interested in delphi get the standard version and play with it for a while. I think the other strong point of delphi is there are thousands of free components you can get out there that are open source.
I guess the whole point is that use what you want, try several (Visual Basic/VC++ are very nasty though and you could save some headaches avoiding them). If you don't get stuck in the one language rut then you will be happier in the long run.
-- If ignorance is bliss, the world is full of blissful people
Most of my numerical work is in either Mathematica or Matlab, depending on if its for the Physics dept or the Math dept. I learned Fortran 77 back in the early 80s. Never played with ADA.
Why this hurts MSFT (no axe to grind either)
by
rustin_ross
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· Score: 2
COM and COM+ are sweet distributed computing models, but a big chunk of the financial and large transactional industries (our clients) are using CORBA/EJB/C++ for their systems.
I'm not saying there isn't still a big demand for COM/Visual C/VB developers out there... but the dev teams with bigtime projects seems to favor Java and CORBA.
Upshot... I think MSFT is in for a very rough ride if they don't open their eyes, and I'm perfectly happy running W2k on my desktop.
http://www.roytalman.com
The version of IE for Macintosh computers seems to be written in C++ (I've ResEdited version 3.0 before.) The Windows version is most likely also in C++, and it's considered part of the OS (it has a Supplemental EULA just like this instead of the full EULA). I don't know what other parts of Windows are written in C++, but I'd say at least 25 percent.
That's funny, Microsoft.com is responding with HTTP Error 500 Server Too Busy.
The KDE desktop for GNU/Linux, BSD, and UNIX systems is written almost entirely in C++.
not *entirely* sure where that response came from... but ok...
I'm defining "OS" as the core of the system... the kernel, not the components of the rest of the system... I don't like the idea of an OS written in C++ at all (games and such are another matter), but I like the idea of *anything* written in java even less
it's about time Micro$oft got put in their place about stealing other peoples stuff.
The Last Block in Microsoft's plan
by
hooded1
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· Score: 3
As most of us know Microsoft was out to get Java from the start. Their reasons were quite simple really: they feared and hated what they could not control. Over the past 5(more/less?) years we have seen microsoft make many attempts at destroying java. Many of these attacks have been only partially successful, although they have removed Java from some areas, it is still quite strong in others. As some of you may know, Java is the most common language taught in College Comp Sci courses. In the past 2 years schools have been increasingly moving away from c++ and closer to java. I believe this recent victory of Microsoft will barely influence college's choice to use Java.
-- A rabbit in the hand is worth 4 in the cage
Re:The Last Block in Microsoft's plan
by
gsarwar
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· Score: 1
This isn't a victory of Micro$oft. Micro$oft agreed to pay $20 million to Sun as damages. They can no longer use "java compatibility" logo and they can't use Sun's java technology in any new products. Rather they've been allowed to include sun's java technology intheir existing products for next 7 years.
Java and the JDKs run on M$ (& everything else.)
by
crovira
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· Score: 2
M$ has just compounded the C# mistake (try to do a search with 'C#',:-)
They're going to try to ramp up C# to use the VB VM. They realize that C# doesn't quite cut it as a language (like they care about semantic and syntactic purity,) and that VB's VM is pokin' slow and its been cracked to bits.
M$ don't care but they should.
VMs are bitches to write and the best one is produced by the folks with the most experience (Namely the ParcPlace Smalltalk VM that's been honed and whetted by experience since 1977.) Java's second with 1996. Nineteen years difference.
Man we Smalltalkers laugh at VB-ers, Java-ers and C# should be good for a ROTFL.
-- MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own.
If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
This is actually a pretty good settlement for Sun
by
alexhmit01
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· Score: 5
Microsoft settled for VERY intelligent reasons. They need to conserve their legal resources. They got embarassed in the anti-trust suit, and with the findings of fact, there was no way that they'd win this suit.
The injuction about the logo wasn't too big a deal. MS doesn't need it. However, this goes beyond the logo.
They can't use Sun's IP. That means that they can't produce a Java anything. They can keep their existing Java software on the market for 7 years, (very key, screwing with Visual Studio now would annoy them) but they can't make more.
This means that the JVM plug-ins can be used preventing MSIE broken Java. With the next version, the Java VM disappears. Now, it is questionable if a third-party can write a reasonably fast Windows JVM, but who knows.
Java is taught at MIT, it is taught at most schools. Except the "elite" CS schools that still teach whatever their developed version of LISP is, most schools are teaching Java starting from the intros. With the CS curriculum in HS switching, Java programmers will be prevalent.
This won't change. Java is a REALLY good teaching language. Yes, there are easier ones, but schools don't like teaching strange tech. They want to be able to be "real world" enough to interest students. C++ has been a nightmare, Pascal was long dead when it was given up, Java is a nice language. It is easy to teach CS principles in it.
Java will still run on Windows. However, it will be a Sun or IBM Java VM, not a MS one. This means that MS can't break compatibility. Sun won. MS settled because they'd lose everything in the case. Also, this is good for MS Spin because they "drop support" for Java. However, Java won't go away.
Java IDEs are getting better. They will replace VB for "stupid apps." Meaning, I can write my DB applications in Java (possibly for JSP deployment via web browser), and run them on Solaris, Linux, and Macintosh, plus Windows. Someone will have to write a good VM for Windows, but it can be done. Also, Win2K helps here.
Win2K makes it easy to deploy applications across the Enterprise (if you are big enough to waste the time to learn all the stuff for it). This means that big companies can deploy the new VM quickly. This will help Java.
MacOS X is going to help Java, Mac will probably be able to build up to 10-15% of the user base. Why? With the Internet, the local platform matters less, and MacOS X is intuitive and powerful. I expect Linux to grab about 5%-10% of the userbase as it becomes more easily used.
MS will maintain 75%-80%, but a unified front of MacOS/Linux (via Java and a shared UNIX/BSD background) will prevent the monopolization of the past as long as the anti-trust lawsuit stays around.
Expect MacOS X.1 or whatever they call it to support X natively, that will let open source apps run on it. Microsoft isn't going away, they aren't going under, they may not even shrink (the market is still expanding, albeit slowly), but their ability to force everyone out will be gone soon, and Java may do it.
This DOES justify Sun's keeping Java proprietary. That's why MS couldn't kill it with Embrace and Extend. Open Source can "win" in that nobody can destroy it, but it can't "win" in the legal game. Sun was able to fight off MS, even if they weren't as pure with their code as we'd like.
Can anyone connect to any host of microsoft.com? I just got a call from someone who cannot connect to microsoft.com and I can't either. Is something up with that domain? Ok, which one of you script kiddies is responsible for this?
Not I. And I can't either.
www.theregister.co.uk reports the DNS
screwing up M$ & Yahoo over the weekend...
but that's a looong time ago as these
things go.
Read the article - Re:All Java??
by
Malc
·
· Score: 2
They get to carry on with current stuff for another seven years.
Re:Hmmm... a better slogan
by
jheinen
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· Score: 2
Come off it. Java is plenty fast for almost any application, especially on the server side, where it really shines (in some cases it outperforms C++). It's no longer necessary to do low-level performance optimization for most mission-critical enterprise-class applications. Today's processors and current JVMs and JITs are more than fast enought to handle the job. Besides, you get far more optimization milage when you look at it from a structural standpoint rather than from the code level.
-Vercingetorix
-- -Vercingetorix
"Necessitas non habet legem." -St. Augustine
While everyone is busy rejoicing Microsoft's departure from the land of Java, I'd like to remind them of what else Java is losing:
- Microsoft's innovations. Feel free to knock their OS'es, but their language experience is great. They built a wickedly fast (albeit nonstandard) JVM way before anyone else could.
- Top-notch tools. Dev studio is one of the slickest IDE's out there, and puts the other clumsy, bug-ridden java tools to shame (jbuilder, cafe).
- Exposure. Like it or not, Microsoft represents the majority. Losing MS won't make it any easier for java to gain mainstream acceptance. Wouldn't it be great if IE5 supported Java 2 right out of the box?
-- Slashdot: come for the pedantry, stay for the condescension.
> - Microsoft's innovations. Feel free to knock their OS'es, but their language experience is great. They built a wickedly fast (albeit nonstandard) JVM way before anyone else could.
It's easy to make a fast JVM when you ignore the standards..
In reality I suspect the reason Microsoft broke with Java standard is to gain speed (not to push Microsoft Java)..
I suspect they accually believed that Sun would let them force thies changes and Sun would just addopt them into Java...
This would give Microsoft an advantage over Linux and Solarus in java...
However Sun wants Solarus to have the advantage not Windows or Linux so they stand fast instead of allowing Microsoft to push them around.
As for Microsofts language experence...
Microsoft wrote Microsoft basic for the first kit computers.. WAY BACK... When compiler languages were in demand.. Microsoft basic comiler... When structured languages were in demand QuickBasic...
Think about this.. Basic is not given to being a compiler or structured language.. it rebells against it.. But Microsoft did it anyway...
Thats pritty dang impressive.
Basic is old.. obsolete.. and would be dead if not for Visual Basic... If Microsofts legacy is any mesure I suspect this is probably an object orented basic.. However I wouldn't know becouse I never used it...
Yeah Microsoft has some pritty insain experence with programming languages...
But I doupt Sun would have ever taken advantage of this and Microsoft isn't very good about working with other companys...
>> Top-notch tools. Dev studio is one of the slickest IDE's out there, and puts the other clumsy, bug-ridden java tools to shame (jbuilder, cafe).
Ahem..agreed. VStudio is a great IDE. Lot of others just 'copied' the look/functionality (including kdevelop). But I use Jbuilder 4.0 @ work on a daily basis, let me tell you it is an excellent IDE. Simple / swing based / intuitive interface / powerful. It sure is slower as it is Java/swing based.
MS had the lead in tools market. They even managed to shove Borland (or Inprise or what ever it is called today) out of tools market. I mean that is BOrland, every one used/loved. I still remember the turbo C++/pascal dos based borland IDES:-)
But there is a limit what you can have a tool do. Now lot of other player are catching up, and MS's edge is quickly narrowing. Borland made a big splash with Jbuilder for all 3 major platforms (win / linux / solaris).
As always competition is good. It keeps everyone on their toes and encourages innovation. I don't love MS, but I don't ditch a good product just b/c it is from Redmond.
"They built a wickedly fast (albeit nonstandard) JVM way before anyone else could."
Point of order. They licensed code from Symantec for their JVM. If you look at performance comparisons from a few years ago, the Symantec JIT and the MS JIT were almost identical in performance. And until recently, the Java console in IE said as much. MS built a COM wrapper around someone else's wickedly fast JVM.
Java2? Why not? It's just another COM object. Now THAT is something that MS did right. Now Java2 can be integrated in the browser and MS doesn't have to support it. Systems integrators (DELL, Gateway, etc.) could very well include it right out of the box if there is sufficient demand for it.
--
- I don't need to go outside, my CRT tan'll do me just fine.
They built a wickedly fast (albeit nonstandard) JVM way before anyone else could.
It's quite easy to build a tool that outperforms anything else if you own the APIs (including the secret undocumented calls) on the platform and also make it incompatible with the spec by rewriting portions of it to hook deeply into the underlying OS. What's the chance MSFT could have built a superior JVM for a platform they don't own?
Microsoft Will Have Java...Just Not Directly
by
MSwanson
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· Score: 2
With the release of Visual Studio.NET, Microsoft has opened up the IDE to third-party language developers (the first time this has happened), and word has it that a third-party is already working on a Java language implementation. As such, this may very well be a non-issue.
I can get drunk in the morning. You, on the other hand, will still be a fag.
I believe that's a Winston Churchill reference (he was a bit of a drunken manic-depressive). One evening at dinner, a lady says to Churchill, "You are drunk, horribly drunk!". Churchill replies, "Madam, you are ugly, horribly ugly, but in the morning, I shall be sober."
Now there was a great quick witted drunken bastard.
Re:Java needs MS - Sorry, you are incorrect.
by
slashbrent
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· Score: 3
Your comment makes the unwritten assumption that MS is the only way Java can be developed and/or implemented on an M$ box/databse/OS.
Borland, Metrowerks, Netscape, AOL, Whoever *CAN* produce compliant (and labeled appropriately) Java tools/apps for an M$ system. I dont see how M$, as one vendor, halts support on the entire platform. Perl and Apache run on just fine on M$, as does Java under Netscape/Mozilla (except Java on the current Linux builds, which sucks, but i digress).
The real "win" here is that MS can no longer kill Java by embracing it and essentially polluting it until its only of use to Gates and company. Maybe now we can force them to use the *correct* version.
Hey Bill: McNealy OWNZ you!!!:-)
..Brent "One musn't enthone ignorance simply because there is so much of it."
--
Moderators need an additional choice: "Karma Whore" for people who cut-and-paste articles as their comments!
You've committed the ultimate crime: One line indirect denial of fact by suggestion.
Java IS a standard. There are rules that must be followed so that products including Java implementations can be branded Java compatible.
That is the definition of a standard.
-- The message on the other side of this sig is false.
Java Becoming Irrelevant...
by
pnatural
·
· Score: 3
because languages are becoming irrelevant. or more specifically, differences between languages are becoming irrelevant. remember 10 years ago when the only way to write a fast app was to code in C? these days, you can get almost the same performance from any number of languages. what happens when all user-land code is relegated to the same run-time sandbox? does the language matter at all?
on the one hand, a language independent compiler or byte-code is a good thing because it provides an additional layer of abstraction, but in the specific case of Java, Sun has made a very determined effort to associate Java the language with Java the byte-code. (or if you're a half-empty kinda person, Sun has not made the effort to distinguish between the two). if the language becomes less important, so does the byte-code. enter.NET, a platform with true language independence, and Sun/Java suddenly looks much less attractive.
i don't mean to spew off MS FUD, but what they've done with.NET and it's language independence is remarkable. i can (and have) written a class in Python, inherited from that class in VB, and debugged the two together as a Perl app. seems to me that with.NET, i'm getting my cake and eating it, too.
Re:Java Becoming Irrelevant...
by
bryanbrunton
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· Score: 1
It is a giant Myth that.NET (CLRT) is language independent. So I think your post is pretty much BS. The CLRT is a language neutering wreck of an idea. Yeah, you can achieve independence if you use about 30% of what is offered from each language. To do any real work you have to use MS common library classes.
I've looked at the Python.NET implementation. It is about 10% completed. At best it is an admirably academic achievement, at worst an very ugly hack.
Re:Java Becoming Irrelevant...
by
gsarwar
·
· Score: 1
language independance is still a hype. Micro$oft's claim about language independance is not new with.NET. They've been claiming the same language independance with COM/DCOM, and all of us saw how much those claims were true. Now, they've started the same claims with.NET, which're not true either. And yes, its possible if you end up modifying all of the languages to conform to similar features. You can observe this thing happening to VB.net, as millions of VB developers are complaining about the modifications to the language:
http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2675 673,00.html
Some VB developers are saying that its no more Visual Basic but Visual Fred or VB.NOT.
MS isn't loosing Java as of yet
by
WildBeast
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· Score: 1
"For its part, Microsoft is permitted to use a version of Java in Microsoft products that already contain it or are in beta for the next seven years, according to Microsoft. " - ZDNet
Java will even be used in the.NET platform and.NET is going to last very long.
Re:MS isn't loosing Java as of yet
by
Chris+Johnson
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· Score: 2
As long as Farenheit?;)
Re:Java deosn't need MS.
by
catseye_95051
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· Score: 2
Wrong.
Sun AND IBM both make excellent Java VMs for Win32.
Java will continue to flourish on Win3 and other platforms. There just wont be the incomapatable, Un-java, MSVM around to confuse people.
This is good news all around for Java.
Re:This is actually a pretty good settlement for S
by
catseye_95051
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· Score: 2
Yep.
You clearly understand it.
Its frightening how many people don't. I was going to post to try to educate a few but you';ve posted evrything I was going to try to explain.
This is a good day for Java. Without the threat of the MS fatal-embrace we might even see some loosening of the restrictions.
The issue in web develupment is simple. You need to support IE. If IE dosn't support Java then nither can you.
But occasionally you have to ignore compatability to get a feature working. IE won't do it but Netscape will..
This is a major boost for Netscape becouse websites won't be able to throw away Java overnight.
This is a boost for Linux sence we don't have IE to run MsJava and are pritty much stuck with SunJava and Netscape Java (Sun Java is used by Konquer)
This is an injury not a death..
But now Microsoft must try to kill Java to continue to push IE.. Sun must kill IE to continue to push Java...
Eather way Netscape gains levrage.. and we gain levrage...
It's not a death... not yet... Java is alive... IE is alive... And now the real battle begins...
Hmm.. I should read the article. But if it says basically what the summary says, which is that MS won't be keeping Java around, I think MS made a Really Bad Move.
Microsoft is still behaving as though they own the planet. Maybe they will be able to hold on, but I think they are just digging themselves into a hole. The trends I'm seeing in the tech market are toward open standards (though that might just be because of where I get my tech news). Microsoft appears to be continuing in the other direction, toward full integration of their entire software line upon proprietary standards.
The market is turning into two camps: Microsoft and Anything But Microsoft. Lines are being drawn, and I think MS will shortly be on the retreat, rethinking these ideas... --
> The market is turning into two camps: Microsoft and Anything But Microsoft. Lines are being drawn, and I think MS will shortly be on the retreat, rethinking these ideas...
There's also the camp consisting of those of us who work for a living and really don't give a good god damn about these silly little treehouse wars, who develop java applications on Microsoft Windows, with Sun's JVM, to run primarily on Microsoft Internet Explorer, served by a FreeBSD server, with the network managed by Linux.
Have fun in your awkward little monoculture. --
-- I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
Re:Java and the JDKs run on M$ (& everything else.
by
__aanonl8035
·
· Score: 1
>> M$ don't care but they should.
I think you make a valid point about the complexity of VMs, but isn't this always the standard modus operandi for Microsoft.
Microsoft will take an inferior product (IE 3.0, Word 5.0, Excel) and shoehorn it in to compete against the dominate program in the marketplace (Netscape, Wordperfect, Lotus) and then let their marketing department push it onto the desktop.
After time, they throw in everything including the kitchen sink and eventually have more features then the competition.
When this mess started I felt that it was a no win situation. If MS won then Java was going to be fragmented, if Sun won then Java was going to be left in the hands of a bunch of clowns. So here we are; Microsoft lost the battle, Sun will lose the war.
We all lose.
Now we will get brain dead attempts by M$ to cripple JVMs and strange new Java-like languages that only run (slowly) on M$ OS's. Java will become even more of an entrenched Sun-only toy, never getting the input it needs to make it reliable enough for the big league.
Big game? Are you brain dead? Big defined by market share or heavy lifting abilities... you let me know when MS get a real project. Let me know when MS runs life support systems, or ATC systems, or even lowly ATM machines... You stupid web monkeys... sheesh
Re:Java and the JDKs run on M$ (& everything else.
by
Osty
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· Score: 2
They're going to try to ramp up C# to use the VB VM. They realize that C# doesn't quite cut it as a language (like they care about semantic and syntactic purity,) and that VB's VM is pokin' slow and its been cracked to bits.
That's rather incorrect. The Common Language Runtime (CLR, the core of.NET development) is not the VB Runtime. Totally different technologies. If anything, VB7 will target the CLR, not the other way around with C# targetting VBRUN.
Do some research before you start spouting, or you'll look like a fool.
I now know what Microsoft is
by
Mr.+Bubbles712
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· Score: 1
But on a more personal note, I just tried to post something here, Straight from the site, to make fun of micro$haft, and I couldn't.(lamnness filter) So just go to the site, and look at what microsoft is defined by yahoo. And notice that there is no account of what Sun is.
-- Alas, poor clippy, I loath him so.
Java platform works with _lots_ of languages
by
yerricde
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· Score: 2
.NET is language independant. You can use PERL, Java, Python, C#, VB, whatever the hell you want
Same with Java technology. It's not limited to the Java language; any language that can be preprocessed into the Java language (covers Basic, C, and COBOL), compiled into JVM bytecode (covers Java, JVM assembly language, ML, C, Ada, Eiffel, Python, Smalltalk, and Haskell), or interpreted easily (covers Tcl/Tk, Forth, Perl, Lisp/Scheme, EcmaScript, Logo, Prolog, and Python) can be used with the Java platform. And there are many more.
Re:This is actually a pretty good settlement for S
by
_xeno_
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· Score: 4
It should probably be noted that as it turns out, Sun concentrates on the Windows JVM for their JDK first, then on Solaris, and then on Linux. The Windows version of JDK1.3 was out before the Solaris version. The Windows JDKs from Sun are already very good.
As long as developers can bundle the Java Runtime Environment installer for Windows, Windows Java Apps won't suffer at all.
-- You are in a maze of twisty little relative jumps, all alike.
Interesting timing if you think about it
by
BlackStar
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· Score: 1
Here's a thought. Just as the higher bandwidth connections become more prevalent, and software distribution via Win2k and Java JumpStart get moving, Sun settles with MSFT. Now the barriers to the JDK distribution are falling away. People can get the JRE in 8Megs on Windows. On 56k that's a bit painful, but on ISDN, xDSL or Cable, it's no longer a big deal.
Heck, compared to say the 53MB of Unreal Tournament Demo, it's insignificant.
So Sun succeeds in stopping the busting up of the Java platform, ensuring the integrity, and also calls off the fight as soon as the market has removed a large chunk of the barriers that were working against them from going without MS anyways.
I think the settlement is great, and I also think that Java will do fine, and.NET will likely succeed as well. MS programmers will move to.NET and C#, and everyone else will use Java, C++ (or maybe C# if it gets standardized. It is pretty clean) and C. (Insert your favourite other language including but not limited to Python, Perl, Lisp, Smalltalk, Eiffel and Ada here).
That may make
C#'s passage into the world a little tricky if Sun has much of the Java technology
patented...
While I think Sun Java is a good system, it is old technology. If Sun has patents on any fundamental aspect of Java or Java implementations, those patents are unlikely to be valid, and if there is any significant economic incentive for challenging them, they will be challenged.
Sun may have legally valid patents on some peripheral aspects of Java that they can use to make it hard for others to produce compliant implementations. But trying to enforce such patents against third party implementations would be suicide for the Java platform.
Re:This is actually a pretty good settlement
by
alexhmit01
·
· Score: 2
Agreed, if you are distributing software via CD or large download, including the JRE is trivial. Indeed, if there is a standard way to verify that it is installed (trivial with the Windows Registry, there are advantages to it, even if its a pain in the ass), you can include it without a problem. It shouldn't be a much bigger deal than the MFC/VB runtimes included copies that we used to use in the past.
Now the Sun JREs blow, they need to be improved and optimized. Unfortunately, it is harder to write a JRE without the OS Code. However, I don't know how much that matters.
When I had a Pentium 75, I used to think that Java was unbearably slow, because it would run at half the speed of native code. With a Pentium 166, it was annoying. With my K6-3 450, I wouldn't want to run a spreadsheet in Java. With my Athlon/P3 machines at the office (and what every new computer user has), it is insignificant.
JIT has probably gotten runtime to 80%-90% of native code for "real apps" (where you run the application for a while, so it can optimize), and the 50% hit for trivial apps doesn't matter because they're trivial. Intel/AMD compensated for Java's speed.:)
Re:This is actually a pretty good settlement for S
by
alexhmit01
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· Score: 1
Thanks for the vote of confidence, I try.:)
Enough of us aren't mindless twits, you'd think that we could all make an effort to post more often so that the unknowledgable users don't dominate. I mean, real posts almost always get a useful mod up, so browing at 2+ or 3+ gets good stuff, I just wish it wasn't always 7 of 300.:)
There just wont be the incomapatable, Un-java, MSVM around to confuse people.
Which is *exactly* the point. Java has breathing room now. Whether it makes it or not...well we'll see. But its chances are *greatly* improved now that MS can't continue extinguishing it.
The Java trademark is proprietary, but Java itself isn't. That hasn't hurt Java. In fact, it's good.
There are already several open source implementations: Intel's open runtime, GNU gcj, TransVirtual's Kaffe, and Japhar. They are incomplete and not fully compatible, but they are getting better, and they offer some useful non-100%-Java add-ons. And because they aren't called "Java", people don't get confused. Everybody is happy.
Even Microsoft can freely implement themselves something that works like Java and runs existing Java code. They just can't try to confuse their customers about what they are getting: that's what trademarks are for.
Re:I would still be concerned though
by
q000921
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· Score: 2
Microsoft doesn't have any control over that. The IE architecture allows people to plug in whatever they want. If they don't provide support for Java in IE, Sun or someone else will, including auto download and auto install.
You won't believe this but, just before I hit submit, I got the impulse to add "Ok, so I guess I'm a fag." But then, never frustrate a fag-caller.
An (interesting) question...
by
alex.muc
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· Score: 1
I haven't looked into the details of what the agreement states in terms of settlement and just how much (or how little) involvement Microsoft can have in Java from now on, but it makes me wonder whether Sun wouldn't be more interested in the standards process for Java now that Microsoft is unable to "muddle" with the spec. Any thoughts anyone?
Re:Java and the JDKs run on M$ (& everything else.
by
q000921
·
· Score: 2
VMs are bitches to write and the best one is produced by the folks with the
most experience (Namely the ParcPlace Smalltalk VM that's been honed and
whetted by experience since 1977.) Java's second with 1996. Nineteen years
difference.
I think Microsoft misrepresents the complexity and timeframe of what they are attempting, but you overestimate it. Good dynamic runtimes and dynamic compilers are non-trivial, but there have been considerably more than ParcPlace and Java. In fact, you can get about half a dozen good, mature ones in open source off the net.
Microsoft has the resources to build a good dynamic runtime, but getting the bugs out and the tuning still requires real-world feedback. My guess is that it will probably take them 3-4 years to produce something decent. Until then, they merely need to give the appearance that they are producing something decent, something that MS marketing is quite good at.
Re:This is actually a pretty good settlement for S
by
civilizedINTENSITY
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· Score: 1
Agreed. His was the best post today, for sure, and maybe the best I've read this month. Consise, no religion, and involving the principal matters. Glad to see it got a 4.
MS Java... the lesser of three evils for IIS
by
e_n_d_o
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· Score: 2
I used to write Java COM components with IIS. While the Java libraries (com.ms.blah), were pretty thin wrappers around IIS stuff, I tend to agree that Java/IIS was a pretty good match. It was amazing how little effort they put into the Java versions of their APIs... I remember having to pass in arrays with length 1 to calls in order to get return values. And I remember how it was technologically impossible to retrieve an array of HTTP request parameters (that had the same name) from Java... all you could do was get them back comma delimited (and thus mangled).
Then I remember when we discovered a never-publicized bug in MS' jdbcodbc.dll. The JDBC-ODBC bridge used to blow up if you sent more than 32k to it trying to set a text (CLOB) column. It would bring down the JDBC-ODBC stuff, the JVM, and thus IIS (JVM was running in process). We reported it, had to fight getting charged for tech support, and it was finally fixed six months after they'd escalated it to that mythical maximum level of importance. Were it not for being able to manually copy old versions of jdbcodbc.dll from old Win95 boxes, our client's app would have been DOA. Cost us two weeks tracking the sucker down
too. Maybe we should have written a security exploit around it and made it into a security bug. Perhaps that would have caught their attention.... but oh, wait, it was 1998 and MS didn't give half a rats rear end about security anyway.
Eventually, we figured out that it was probably a good idea to ditch all dependence on MS and go straight J2EE. ---
Re:What Java technology can do that C# and .NET ca
by
drudd
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· Score: 1
Too bad there's no 1.2 jre for mac's though...
Doug
-- Venn ist das nurnstuck git und Slotermeyer? Ya! Beigerhund das oder die Flipperwaldt gersput!
Re:What Java technology can do that C# and .NET ca
by
bnenning
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· Score: 2
There is in the Mac OS X public beta (1.3 will ship with the final release). It works quite well, and Swing looks much less crappy than usual because it uses native Aqua widgets.
-- How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
Re:This is actually a pretty good settlement
by
_xeno_
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· Score: 1
Pathetically enough, the Windows Sun JVM is still the best Sun JVM... At least, based on my (limited) experience with Sparc Stations. (I don't have the opertunity to use Solaris too much...) Linux and Windows JVMs I can actually testify to using and can compare them.
The real thing is that Sun needs to stop playing around with the AWT and actually start optimizing it for various platforms - the AWT is rather slow. And Swing doesn't help it in the least...
-- You are in a maze of twisty little relative jumps, all alike.
From the point of view of my last company, it rhymes with ExoSucks Communications, this means very little, which is probably will be good for Sun. For a pipe company like ExoSucks, a company which benefits from being platform independent (sure, we'll run a Mac OS X Server , , , admin . . . anyone? . . . Bueller?) being able to put as many popular logos at the bottom of their press releases is all that matters. Cisco Powered! bling! Powered by Java! bling! These things have meaning to the people who write or and work on the systems that run in the datacenter. And those people ultimately (usually) bless the purchase rec. for the sales moron who makes the buy. By disenfranchising those individuals, M$FT makes a big mistake. No more logo on the releases. No more free adverts. No more deep core support.
C# and .NET platform support: Look beyond desktop
by
yerricde
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· Score: 1
1. Run on less than 3% of all desktop machines 2. Run on less than 5% of all desktop machines
The old bandwagon argument. If all your lemming friends were jumping off a cliff, would you also jump?
"5%" and growing. As computer hardware becomes cheaper, the Microsoft Windows tax becomes a larger percentage of the price, making a GNU/Linux system a viable option for low-end PCs and set-top boxen. For example, Dell systems are now available with Linux preinstalled instead of Windows, and the new AOL TV(TM) set-top box reportedly uses a Linux-based system.
You emphasize the word desktop. AFAIK, JavaServer Pages(TM) technology runs on Linux and UNIX servers; server-side content generation with.NET doesn't. Last time I checked, there were more UNIX or nixclone servers than NT/Win2K servers on the Web; check Netcraft if you don't believe me.
The last step that is required now is a good way to run multiple Java apps on the main platforms (Windows, Mac OSX and Linux). One of the reasons why desktop apps haven't really taken off is that each app launched takes quite a bit of memory with the VM - if you can move some of that overhead into a centralized place then it would be a lot easier to run Java desktop apps.
Desktop Java apps can be pretty good - with a lot of optmizing, I worked with a team to get a pretty decently sized Swing based app with a lot of DB access and forms and MDI working resonably well on a P166 running W95 with 32MB of RAM, using the 1.2VM - and it was over two years ago that I completed that project. Even at the time it ran just like any other app on a P450 and given that the newer VM's are getting better and better you could probably do some pretty powerful desktop apps today. I still haven't seen many good examples, TogetherJ is impressive but still a bit slow.
I really agree with you that OSX will help Java on the desktop, and Java is already moving up from the other end as well with Palm VM's and iMode applets.
-- "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Re:Java and the JDKs run on M$ (& everything else.
by
TummyX
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· Score: 2
They're going to try to ramp up C# to use the VB VM. They realize that C# doesn't quite cut it as a language (like they care about semantic and syntactic purity,) and that VB's VM is pokin' slow and its been cracked to bits.
Ahem. C# uses the.NET runtime's VM (Common Language Runtime). VB.NET is a completely rewritten VB and it targets the CLR just like C# will. VB.NET is nothing like the old VB (except for syntax).
Also, VB has been natively compiled since version 6, so it has had no need for a VM for quite a while.
VB's VM is pokin' slow
Compared to what? Java? LOL
This Is the beginning of the end for java
by
Squarewav
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· Score: 1
I bet sun doesnt even relise what they just did, more likly then not MS is going to drop java in the next release and replace it with something of there own, as it stand right now , what 90% of people on the web use the newest version of IE that has has java, now if IE no longer includes java , that will put the number of java users down to what Im guessing 15%(I'll assume some people will d/l suns java).Web sites are no longer going to write for it as pritty much anything less then 25% of the market isnt worth the effort. and more likly then not switch to whatever IE has even if its activeX. forceing other OSs even farther away from a "modern" browser. (bad news for alt-OSs good for MS).
I never Liked java, I though it was slow buggy and used too much ram , it doesnt run anybetter on my new k7-900 as it did on my 486-with p83 overdrive. I for one will not download java, esp if sites stop developing for it. and Im sure Im not alone. However, this can be very bad news for alt-OSs if everyone starts writing for activeX, the lack of a browser with active X support will drive new usesers away from the OS. But its also possible that AOL will use NS6 that alone will couse a great shift in the "browser wars"
Let the games begin!
Re:This Is the beginning of the end for java
by
Squarewav
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· Score: 1
thats what I was trying to state. if activeX or some other windows only format begins to show up everyware on the web, it will be a very bad thing for alt-os's. theres alot of people who dont use beos couse the browser doesnt support java or whatever. what if your jobs web site used activeX or your online bank. not having a browser with active X support would annoying to say the least and thus new users who have grown dependant on MSs browser will be turned off by linux, beos whatever. this already has happend, I dont know how may times ive heard things like "I dont like linux couse it cant run IE or NS sucks "
It is very amusing as I read the postings that you all seem to think that Microsoft still worries about Java. While Microsoft has been working on new versions of their Visual Studio suite, Visual J++ has been stagnat. Ask any Visual J++ user out there if they have had any updated release and they will tell you. Instead, Microsoft has been putting their effort into C# and thier.Net initiative. The truth: C# is Java. Give C# 2 years and we talk. I can see the same hostile take over that IE did to Netscape. Rememember when we all thought that Netscape marketshare will never go below 50%, well newsflash people. C# will turn out to be a much better language to work with, with real productivity tools.
Until now, with all the Microsoft bashing that Microsoft products are inferior (which I take as cheap talk, and you are free to talk cheap), I have always been intrigued by the fact that Microsft JVM for a loooonnngggg time has had the *fastest* JVM and Java compiler on the market. What a slap to Sun and all it's loyal followers. They had to come up with HotSpot to bridge the gap. And I bet you MSJVM still kick their ass. But who cares. As long as I can write code, I am happy.
Java applets will be replaced by ActiveX controls. C# will push Java in a few years. And Windows will always be the OS of the masses. Linux and flavors of unix will always be a niche market. Even unix vendors can't standardize amongst themselves.
Microsoft Transaction Server, together with COM+ and C#, will make the oh-so-powerful-and-damn-slow EJB technology looks like a joke. CORBA is going nowhere. How is Orbix today? What happened to all those CORBA vendors, that suddenly happened to have disappeared? OMG is good for the academics. Companies out there want real solution to their problem. Cost effective solution. And Microsft over and over have consistently delivered to their customers.
And please don't tell me that Unix is so much better than Windows. Unix has had 25 years to mature. Give Windows another 5 years and then we talk.
Bottom line. It's a good thing that Java is no longer on Microsoft task list. That means more time to make C# a kick ass language, which by the way, has been submitted to the ECMSA standard body, something that Sun (yeah, this one is for all the open source nuckle head) has been reluctant to do. Why?
PS-Apple can't even write a decent office package for their own platform. They need Microsoft to do it for them. Thinking about what Microsoft contributed to the public in popularizing the PC and office productivity (taken that the GUI+pointing device idea was from Xerox, adopted by everybody), they must be really bad at designing software.
And now that Netscape development team is moving under the umbrella of AOL Technology, how many people would argue that AOL is better than Microsoft? --
what are you on?
ActiveX will not replace Java applets - why? ActiveX is too insecure. ActiveX is windows only.
Java applets are platform independant. Get into the real world - not everyone wants to run windows, microsoft webservers - when there are better solutions (weblogic etc)- AND cheaper solutions such as Apache.
Unix is mature. Windows is NOT mature.. it still changes too much and its still too insecure to be true.
"Give Windows another 5 years and then we talk"
crap. I heard this time and time again.. its still not right is it?
You can still write COM components in Java. I did. It's just a little bit harder.
A year and a half ago I was in charge of modifying one of the last Microsoft-specific parts of code in my company's product. Our goal was to become 100% pure so as to be able to port to Solaris. Doing so involved getting rid of some J++ code which made it really easy to interact with COM. Instead, I used JNI and wrote some wrapper classes in C++ that interacted with the COM components we needed from the Microsoft platform. On Solaris we just plugged in some Java code that did the same thing.
In addition, I believe IBM's alphaWorks has a project bridging COM and Java Beans, and doesn't Sun also have a COM-to-Java bridge?
I don't believe that languages are becoming irrelevant. The best way to write a fast app is in C, but our machines are becoming faster, so the slow enviroments are not so painfull to wait for. All the intrepreters for them are written (largely) in C, not C++, not Java, C. As the intrepreters get faster, we see a difference, but they still cannot be as fast as real machine code.
-- Spring is here. Don't believe me, look outside!
Microsoft IE is way faster on the Mac
by
SeanAhern
·
· Score: 1
That is why IE kills Netscape 4.x on Windows but not on the Mac, because Netscape is able to access the full potential of the MacOS's capabilities.
That turns out not to be the case On a G3 and a G4, MS IE knocks the socks off Netscape in speed. And it can't be because of some hidden API that Apple only shares with Microsoft. I think Microsoft just wrote better code than Netscape/AOL.
(I can't believe that I'm saying that about Microsoft, but in this case, it's true.)
Re:This is actually a pretty good settlement
by
Zagadka
·
· Score: 1
AWT isn't really slow. Swing is somewhat slow, but plain AWT is actually quite quick. The problem is that most people who code directly to AWT don't know what they're doing, and they overide paint() but not update(). Check out the applets at Java on the Brain to see some good AWT-intensive Java applets.
Some classic MS double speak...
by
AtrN
·
· Score: 1
From the CNET report (Jim Cullinan being identified as the Microsoft representative)...
Cullinan, however, blamed Sun for the lawsuit and maintained Microsoft's stance that Sun was trying to stop Microsoft's innovative work with Java.
"They have harmed consumers and developers by trying to reduce choice and the
availability of technology," he said. "They decided to go to court and try to compete
on the issue."
Hang on. Weren't you the company found guilty
on exactly that? Sheez. I guess if you say it
enough people will believe you. Love the
"innovation" aspect too.
This is terrible.. just terrible
by
LordOfYourPants
·
· Score: 1
What I'll miss most about java would be the removal of hackish sleep() statements I put in my code in order to stop it from running too fast when it was C code.
Starting with JDK1.4 the releases will be synchronized. On a side note, there are
blazing fast JVMs (no pun intended) for wintendo, check out IBM's VM on
http://www.volano.com/report.html.
-- Unable to read configuration file '/bigassraid/htdig//conf/14229.conf'
Geocrawler error message.
There's nothing wrong with writing an OS in C++ as long as you use good programmers. Although, that is easier said than done. As long as they understand the implications of what they write in terms of the assembly generated by the compiler, it's a fine language for writing an OS.
The problem with languages is that the easier it is to write, the less people think. The theory is that with higher level languages people can devote their minds to worry about their high level algorithms instead of continually worrying about low level implementation details. The reality is that they just use their brains less, and don't properly think about either the low level or the high level. The *worst* possible software is generated when people go even higher level and start generating programs using Rational Rose together with the Design Patterns book.
This is part of the reason why Java applications are generally shit. It's only the fault of the language to the extent that people are encouraged to think less. This doesn't "let you concentrate on what's important", it just allows mental laziness, and very few people have the discipline to devote the freed mental CPU cycles to their design. Instead it just lets them churn out more shit code, which fools them into thinking they are being more "productive". Likewise, lots of C++ programs are worse than the equivalent C.
The redeeming feature of C++, and the reason why there are several decent applications and a couple of decent OSs written in C++ is that it shoots you in the foot often enough to prevent you from forgetting about the low level details for very long. Even though in theory the language allows you to ignore implementation details, there are so many gotchas that you have to understand all the gory details in order to write tolerable code. Like, you can use multiple inheritance, but just try doing that without understanding what virtual inheritance means and you'll soon be in a world of pain. The many dangerous and complicated language features in C++ keep people on their mental toes.
I agree completelly. That's why I write all my CGI programs in assembler these days. After all, C has some redeeming features, like manual memory management, that certainly will keep you bug shooting for months, which is a good thing because it keeps you on your mental toes, but anyone who understands what a generic computing device is understands that to write even a half decent program you need obviously be intimately familiar with every machine instruction and its implications with regards to processor microcode, IO operations etc. I recently got sacked from my company because my boss can't understand the principles of quality software enginering and demanded that I produce an HTML form handler in a few days. Idiot...
In closing, I'd just like to remind you that, generally, C applications are also shit, and when they are shit, they misbehave in a lot nastier ways than "poorly designed" programs in high level languages (with garbage collect and memory management).
Choose The Right Tool For the Job
by
SubtleSeer
·
· Score: 1
This may appear to be a big blow for Microsoft, and a win for Sun. However, as developers there should be more of an emphasis placed on teaching programmers how to choose the right tool for the job. Since MS Java was not compatible with Sun Java, then it didn't
necessarily deserve to thrive.
Forget about the personal fued between MS and Sun, as developers we're not capitalizing off of their egos. Our job is to create rock-solid deployments for our customers.
At the same time, developers for the Windows platform should be familiar with most of the development tools for Windows and know how to choose the right tool for the job. Developers for the *nix variants should be able to do the same.
Visual Basic, Visual C++, Delphi, and Java are all mainstream languages that can be used for application development or "enterprise" development on Windows. C, C++, Cobol, and Java can be used on *nix variants.
All of this "enterprise" talk is only relevant if the developer knows how to be flexible. A good programmer could create a rock-solid enterprise deployment using Visual Basic "webclasses" and create a DHTML application on the server side if he takes the time to design it in a logical and clear fashion. It is a useful tool if used properly, with less time and overhead.
As a matter of fact, I was speaking with this guy the other day, and he didn't even know how to take advantage of using modules and classes in VB App development. It is a powerful feature of the language, and it keeps the programmer in tune when they do development in another language like C++ or Java.
Nevertheless, he was not taught the real value of learning how to write successful modules and classes. He was not taught how to design object-oriented apps, that can have linear algorithms within an event driven model. So his whole source code was just "event-driven" vb code with no coherent structure.
The problem today is everybody is bias, including Universities. These technical training courses are teaching their students how to create programs, but they are not teaching them the science and art of programming. Once you know how to program, it doesn't matter what language you use. The true potential of these tools are not being harnessed because of fanaticism. I'm a programmer, not some cult follower. I wish more of these young programmers would learn that, and stop following zealots.
SubtleSeer
Re:What Java technology can do that C# and .NET ca
by
CiaranMc
·
· Score: 1
That's actually a pretty big problem. one of the whole points of Swing is that it doesn't use native widgets at all, so the developer has a better idea of the Look and Feel of the application.
If a developer wants to use native widgets, they should use AWT, surely?
I might be misunderstanding, but is this going to mean no Servlet support for IIS? It's one of the areas that I wanted to start learning very soon but as so many people use inferior webservers:) it'd be pretty pointless. *sigh* Shame if it means that IIS won't support it
Microsoft still involves in Java community
by
jsse
·
· Score: 1
In case you didn't know, Microsoft signed a contract with Transvirtual to support development of a GPL PersonalJava 1.1 compliant java envirnoment Kaffe. You can find the news here
However, don't dream that Microsoft dedicates to the growth of Java and GPL. Some conspiracists suspected that the whole things is to hurt Java development. The fact that Kaffe has not implemented java.security will help supporting the false claim "Java is not secure"
"Microsoft is throwing money at a small company trying to make some noise at JavaOne, the way they do every year,"Jim Mitchell, vice president of architecture and technology at Sun's JavaSoft division, said.
Re:Java needs MS - Sorry, you are incorrect.
by
marnanel
·
· Score: 1
True. But I think you haven't answered the original poster's point, which was that there are, unfortunately, many people who don't see a technology as somehow safe or OK unless it has Microsoft's name on it.
``Microsoft is very pleased with the successful conclusion of this litigation,'' said Tom Burt, deputy general counsel for litigation at Microsoft.
"It's pretty simple: This is a victory for our licensees and consumers," said Sun's Chairman and CEO Scott McNealy.
Everyone wins - there are no losers. Why can't everything end so happily?
Re:This is actually a pretty good settlement for S
by
RayChuang
·
· Score: 3
Well, there is a real good reason why Sun wants the Java VM to work on the WIN32 API first: that is -85 percent- of the market for desktop computers and small servers.
Sun may dislike Microsoft but frankly, Sun knows that for Java to be significant they -have- to be able to run on the most popular OS platform by a long, long way.
Don't be surprised that this settlement may result in a deal for a Sun-certified Java VM to be part of Internet Explorer 6.0, or at least provide direct hooks to work under IE 6.0.
Look, there are a LOT of engineers that have already invested in learning Java. It makes sense and it doesn't tie you into a single platform.
I do believe that C# will adapt, but how can it compete with a 'relatively' open and cross-platform language?
I don't think at this point, even if Microsoft has an amazing set of development tools that are superior to Jbuilder, Visual Age, etc etc, could catch up overnight with Java.
Java is really one of the few great enterprise server solutions (for the internet) that is both robust and scalable. (I don't consider a 4-cpu Dell running windows 2000 scalable).
--------------------
Would you like a Python based alternative to PHP/ASP/JSP?
I do believe that C# will adapt, but how can it compete with a 'relatively' open and cross-platform language
C# and the CLI have been submitted to the ECMA for standardization. It will be more open than Java.
The.NET framework is also being ported to other platforms.
Java is really one of the few great enterprise server solutions (for the internet) that is both robust and scalable. (I don't consider a 4-cpu Dell running windows 2000 scalable).
Re:What Java technology can do that C# and .NET ca
by
Pengo
·
· Score: 2
You can force it to use Motif & Metal 'themes'
--------------------
Would you like a Python based alternative to PHP/ASP/JSP?
Next Windows won't come with a JVM...
by
devjoe
·
· Score: 1
But, this means that the next new version of Windows will not have a JVM. Users will only be able to run java applets in IE if they download one from Sun...
Sun may actually be able to make some money by selling some copies of their JVM in stores, to people who don't want to have to download (much as MS sells update disks for Windows). {Complete your Windows 2002 installation with Sun JVM...:-) }
And of course, then these users will see what the rest of us have seen all along: how badly Microsoft messed up Java. How many of the java applets on the web won't run on standard-conforming JVMs because they were made with MS's non-standard-conforming Java compilers.
Does this mean that M$ was really scared?
by
galego
·
· Score: 1
One thing that I noticed was this was a 'settlement' and not a 'ruling' (according to my reading). Does this mean that M$ was scared of a being ruled against?
The only reason they didn't settle with the DOJ is well...there was no way. Back when Caldera was about to win the ruling in court against Microslush...Bill got out the checkbook and Caldera settled out of court. The check for them seems to be a worthwhile tradeoff to being proved wrong in court.
I know there are other times when M$ paid off the plaintiff...err...I mean settled, instead of letting the suit play out. I think that's where M$'s lawyers are best...realizing when they are going to lose, and getting Bill to pony up the cash.
Comments? Flames? Rebuttals? Corrections?
Cheers
Galego
--
Que Deus te de em dobro o que me desejas
[May God give you double that which you wish for me]
Re:What Java technology can do that C# and .NET ca
by
hemul
·
· Score: 1
I'll add
Run as a server on everything from ipaqs to IBMBigIron.
Actually, I wish I had done more assembly, although compilers are pretty good these days. I was learning things like Lisp, prolog, pop11 and ML when in retrospect, I would have been better off learning more assembly, and understanding microcode would be even better. However, C is sufficiently low level for most tasks thanks.
There are plenty of shit C/C++ applications, this is true. Writing such applications isn't easy, and not everybody is smart/experienced enough to do it right. Yes, when they misbehave they do so nastily. So nastily in fact, that the problem tends to get noticed and fixed. Tell me something though, where are the good applications written in high level languages. Of the actual applications you use every day, how many are written in high level languages ?
True enough, it does take longer to write an HTML form handler in a low level language. The discipline involved wouldn't pay off until you start writing much larger and more complicated applications. That's the paradox, high level languages are supposed to help out with very big complicated programs, but the more impressive the task performed by a working program is, the less likely that it was written in a high level language. To me, impressive programs are things like: compilers, CAD/CAM applications, operating systems, space shuttle control systems, voice recognition, etc etc. The bigger the project, the more important it is to have control down to the lowest level.
-- http://rareformnewmedia.com/
Someone Will Make Java for .NET
by
quakeaddict
·
· Score: 1
Someone will make a Java implementation for.NET. The.NET spec is as open as open gets, and someone will create a compiler that will work with the CLR.
MS is out of the business of promoting Sun technology and has moved on to bigger and better things.
The Java threat to MS was the idea that somehow Java could become the OS. As we all know, this was more hype than reality. Java apps are slower than dog pooh and never really constituted a desktop threat. MS was being paranoid of their monopoly.
It doesn't get any more propietary. It is owned and controlled by a single company. The JVM is a closed source proprietary engine. Even the test suites are not public (so SUN can twist the results in order to twist arms.)
Microsoft doesn't want Java! There will be no more Java! Pascal was taught in ALL the colleges in it time but you kids wouldn't remember that. Java is now history. It will never run well again on MS products. Microsoft will not be working with SUN on any platform. Bet on it. And Sun is the loser because Windows no longer supports Java...
With new C-Sharp/.NET bytecodes, which, btw, are all as open as commercial company can do it, and all documented - Microsoft wants Java dead as soon as possible. They really don't need Java for anything now - they can claim platform-independence, class reuse from various languages, ease of OO programming, existing infrastructure for support of distributed applications etc., etc. - all of Java strong points. So surely they don't want Java anymore - they just developed their own Java.
-- --
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.
Re:What Java technology can do that C# and .NET ca
by
Frodo
·
· Score: 1
As soon as anybody writes C# bytecode interpreter for Linux and good system classes library for Linux, it would work. At least when programmed right.
Don't foget how much time it took to Sun to recognize there's Linux and there should be Java for Linux. Years. And.NET is not even released.
-- --
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.
Re:What Java technology can do that C# and .NET ca
by
Anonymous Coward
·
· Score: 2
Many people have made the point that JAVA will run almost anywhere and that C-Dull will require Windows. The counter argument is that Windows is a monopoly and has 90% of the worlds computers.
My point is this. They have way less than 50% of the server side busienss, and it appears that they will never dominate that business. Do you want to lock yourself in to Windows on the server side when you don't have to?
Lastly you want an application that I can write in JAVA that I cannot in "Inactive C", err C-dull... I will write an application that gets information out of a SQL database and returns it to me in an object. I will do this WITHOUT any sql code. If the database changes (i.e. adds tables ect) I will NOT have to change my code. My code will handle transaction management, messaging and state without me having to type ONE line of code... I do this in JAVA today. You cannot do this in C# today. I didn't even mention database pooling.
Have you checked where ORACLE, IBM AOL/TW, SUN, BEA, APPLE ect are putting there development dollars. It is NOT C# it is JAVA, XML and to some extent LINUX. The evil empire is falling...
I never thought I would say this, but thank you Reno.
I never used it and I never will. Sun is run by idiots. Java coders only write script! They don't write 'programs'. People who say otherwise are very lame.
A line from Shadowlands: "Are you trying to be insulting or just plain ignorant?"
JavaScript is a scripting language. It has been standardized into the HTML spec by the W3C. JavaScript was not developed by Sun, and is not directly affiliated with Sun.
Java is a programming language developed by Sun. It is compiled into a bytecode and is executable in a Java VM.
Some very complex and mission-critical code is written in Java, and it is by far the fastest-growing programming language today.
Don't knock it 'till you've tried it...
--
"Anything is better than IE, and you can quote me on that." -- Wil Wheaton.
Re:What Java technology can do that C# and .NET ca
by
NecroPuppy
·
· Score: 1
As soon as anybody writes C# bytecode interpreter for Linux and good system classes library for Linux, it would work. At least when programmed right.
What makes you think that anyone would? M$ has been trying to marginalize Linux since day one. Why would they provide the necessary port? And, IIRC, Corel got rid of it's Linux stuff, thus dumping the only support for.NET that I've heard of.
M$ is only going to provide.NET to what they consider 'valid' platforms, which in their eyes does not include Linux. And I'm happy about this... I don't like the.NET, and I don't want to see it on my future Linux box...
-- I like you, Stuart. You're not like everyone else, here, at Slashdot.
Actually, JavaScript was originally called "LiveScript" until someone at Netscape decided it would be beneficial to capitalize on the current Java wave, so the name was changed. At the time, Java and JavaScript were completely unrelated [footnote]. Now, however, well defined interfaces exist between the two separate languages.
-- there are 2 kinds of people. those who divide people into 2 kinds, and those who don't.
C# is sightly better than Java
by
peter303
·
· Score: 2
C# is my favorite dialect of object-oriented C.
It fixes a few flaws in Java, while emulating
most of it.
The chief drawback is that MicroSoft is doing
almost nothing to promote it on non-MS platforms.
Microsoft Broke The Rules...
by
AlgUSF
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· Score: 1
Microsoft thought that they were big enough that they could just crush Sun. I think with Sun doing all of the Windows Java implementations, Sun is working on getting the power to crush Microsoft. I hate hearing people talk about "If Java takes off" or "If Java is a success". The Java programming language is taught in almost every university, and some high schools. Java is the fastest growing programming language, and C# (a rip-off of Java) won't stop that momentum.
--
I want my rights back. I was actually using them when our government stole them after 9/11.
Where Java Went Wrong...
by
ChaoticCoyote
·
· Score: 1
...is in trying to be everything to everyone.
Sun's rather dictatorial manner hasn't helped Java, either. Scott McNealy is a Gates-wannabe, trying the lead a rebellion to change dictators.
Java is, however, far from dead. On the client side, servlets and JSP provide power and structure. I don't hesitate to use Java on the server.
On the client side, Sun killed Java through rapid change and bloat. Building a solid VM takes considerable effort and stability; Sun, alas, sis not seem interested in stability. Swing is overkill for most applications; AWT works quite well, expecially when Java is used for small, focused applications.
For some of my projects (portable, graphic demonstrations of scientific principles), Java works well. I can ship an Java application to a computer scientist anywhere in the world, and he can run it without need to recompile or argue over window managers and desktop environments. But for normal, everyday applications, Java is dead, as Corel and other companies have discovered.
Long live Java on the server; long live Java in the niches it best fills. Goodbye, Java as the "everything to everyone" language.
-- Scott Robert Ladd
Master of Complexity
Destroyer of Order and Chaos
Re:Where Java Went Wrong...
by
CrazyLegs
·
· Score: 1
I would agree that Java on the server is a "good thing". I work for a multi-national bank and we use servlets and JSP to run our on-line banking channels (millions of xact per day, 24/7 uptime, yadda, yadda).
I slightly disagree with your comments on client-side Java, though. Applets suck... hands down. Not because they're not functional, though. There are very useful applet implementations in the world. The big problem, IMHO, is insufficient bandwidth to do anything really useful to a wider audience. When Mon and Dad have broadband, then maybe applets will be appealing.
Java client applications, however, are a different story. Again, the corp I currently work for has employed some very sophisticated Java applications (on WinNT...) and they work very well, technically and from a business perspective. That is, they perform well, are reliable, can share corp-specific utility classes with other Java implementations, and our development staff can contribute to more technology environments (cust channels, admin, Intranet, etc.) than was previously possible.
IMHO, the BIGGEST problem with Java today is that it's largely past the hype-cycle, so the media sees it being "dead" (read: less newsworthy). Look at this way, lowly COBOL is still the language that powers most large corporate environments - but it's "dead" too.
In the meantime, MS has recycled the same ol' COM/DCOM/ActiveX/etc/ garbage again as.NET (wasn't it DNA just a few years back). They're irrelevant...
Regards.... CrazyLegs
--
CrazyLegs
"Pork!!" said the Fish, and we all laughed.
Re:Hmmm... a better slogan
by
MidnightLog
·
· Score: 1
Come off it. Java is plenty fast for almost any application,...
I think that OmegaDan was simply arguing semantics (interpret vs. run) instead of slamming Java. Or maybe I'm giving him (too much) benefit of the doubt.
--
To understand what's right and wrong, the lawyers work in shifts...
Re:This is actually a pretty good settlement for S
by
scrytch
·
· Score: 2
> They can't use Sun's IP. That means that they can't produce a Java anything.
This disturbs me immensely that a language is being claimed as someone else's property. Even if you write a compiler from scratch, most java tools will not work without the sun.* packages. Didn't this whole flap start from MS tainting the precious sanctity of the core java packages?
If Java were part of a standards body, MS Java would simply not have met certification. Instead, Sun sued. If I distributed a modified and possibly broken C++, there is no C++ Inc that can sue me over it.
MS was an easy target for you to hate. If Sun turned its guns on me, I'd be out on the street. --
-- I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
The 1.3 JDK is available for all platorms
by
Trith
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· Score: 1
In the old days, the JDKs were released way out of sync. Today, JDK 1.3 is available for Windows, Solaris, and Linux. You can't keep looking to 1998.
-----
Re:Java. What about JavaScript?
by
CrazyLegs
·
· Score: 1
Ummm.... I'm confused about this. My belief was that JavaScript was just an unfortunately-named technology that has little to do with Java. While we're on the topic, what would REALLY be useful is if JavaScript was implemented in a standard way on all broswers. Wouldn't it be nice if it could, for example, exhibit consistent behaviours across browsers when interacting with Java Applets? Of course, the one may as well wish for a consistent DOM implementation, too....*sign*
Regard....
CrazyLegs (don't ask....)
In general, I think many "idealistic" software engineers miss out on this simple fact: A majority of software engineering tasks today are more akin to plumbing than science. You don't have the performance optimization demands that justifies using a lower level language and dwell on algorithms for ages. A language with auto-vivifying variables and dynamic list types may use 20% more memory space and 50% more clock cycles than needed, but it's usually not a problem. To a purist, yes, but that won't convince your company to assign more resources to the task. So you take some high level stuff and throw it together to shuffle some data from A to B, mangle it a bit, and you're done. It may not be pretty, but it's economy.
/Digital plumber
Java replaces C++, CLU at MIT, but not LISP/Scheme
by
brlewis
·
· Score: 1
The Civil Engineering course (1.00) now uses Java in the fall term, but still uses C++ in Spring. The CS course on software eng (6.170) now uses Java, not CLU.
Courses like 6.001 and 6.044J continue to use Scheme and will probably always use it. After all, that language was designed for teaching CS principles.
I'm teaching a non-credit workshop at MIT this Friday on using Scheme for server-side web applications.
Re:Java needs MS. [ DISTRIBUTION ]
by
Big+Jojo
·
· Score: 2
The thing that Java needs is widespread
distribution... and prior to some of the
antitrust rulings, that meant that Sun needed
to get Microsoft to distribute it.
On the other hand, it seems like it'd
now be practical for Dell, Compaq, Gateway,
etc to bundle Sun's JVM into their distros.
And of course,
for "large customers", which do custom
installs of Win32 based operating systems,
to do the same thing... which they were
probably doing already.
buy IIS Servlet support from third parties
by
brlewis
·
· Score: 1
My company uses JRun with IIS, one of many third-party servlet engines. This lets me develop BRL apps on my Linux box and deploy on IIS with no modification.
My only concern, albeit a small one, is that of Java applets in web pages. Maybe it's not the ideal environment, but currently it's the only reasonably cross-platform, cross-browser way to deliver client-side executable content that's too complex to do in JavaScript. What will happen when Internet Exploder no longer has Java support? Webmasters will have a choice: force IE users to download a Sun Java plug-in, or write the applet in C# and only support IE7 (or whatever) users. That sounds quite forboding if you're a fan of non-Microsoft desktops.
I truly hope that this scenario never comes to pass. It won't, if AOL gets on the ball and switches its AOLclient to use Mozilla as the browser. Let's hope this happens soon. --
-- Tired of FB/Google censorship? Visit UNCENSORED!
Re:What Java technology can do that C# and .NET ca
by
Frodo
·
· Score: 2
You don't need Microsoft to do anything for you. All.NET interfaces are documented extensively. Including bytecode formats. Just go to MSDN, take the docs and start coding. You have better things to do? Then why Microsoft should make your world better for their own cost?
-- --
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.
Re:What Java technology can do that C# and .NET ca
by
SlippyToad
·
· Score: 1
And I dare you to find a web page that I need to visit that requires Java. I use Opera 5, the free edition, without java because I didn't see the point in downloading 7 MB of java interpreter for the.000213% of the banner ads I see that use some sort of java animation. Been using it for about a month now. Every once in a great while, I see a box that says "This applet requires a plug-in blah blah blah" and I just happily ignore it. MS is dropping Java because it will have zero impact on them, and no one in their right mind is using it for web development. I'm not saying that means anything to me -- I am, after all defecting from the IE camp because IE also is irritating and I am tired of screwing with it. When I next boot up Linux, I will probably download the free Opera for Linux and use that, just because I have no time for Netscape. But at any rate, who gives a shit what C# can do or what Java can do? I don't need either of them and won't bother visiting sites that do.
-- One day I feel I'm ahead of the wheel / the next it's rolling over me / I can get back on / I can get back on
.NET no more language-independent than JVM
by
brlewis
·
· Score: 1
You could write a class in JPython, inherit from that class in Java, and debug the two together via interactive Kawa Scheme. The JVM's language independence is there regardless of whether or not Sun emphasizes it.
Languages that support continuations (e.g. Scheme) will have the same difficulties on.NET's CLR as they do on the JVM. See the recent thread on comp.lang.scheme about.NET.
Sun's version of the settlement
by
tjhart
·
· Score: 1
Sun has their own take on the settlement...
http://www.sun.com/smi/Press/sunflash/2001-01/sunf lash.20010123.1.html
having not read any of this crap:) I'm guessing Microsoft wanted to take over java, kinda like they attempted with html (to just add in elements that would force people to use their kernel crashing browser that seems to take you 4 updates to just cover the security end of things):P
If i'm wrong oh well. foo bar.
SUN + MS, the total is more than the sum of ...
by
wamckee
·
· Score: 1
I like Java. It's clean and powerful. Sun has worked long and hard to make a good product. They should be rewarded for their efforts.
Unfortunately, without MS's support they are embarking on a long and difficult road to acceptance. As much as I dislike it, MS provides instant access to the largest market. By putting a JVM (not the lousy 1.1.4 but a nice 1.3 version) in IE, you get instant acceptance.
Point one, downloading a ~7MB plug-in just to get a JVM installed is enough to put off some users from using Java at all.
Point two, it only seem logical that MS should make the WIN32 JVM -- for better or worst they know there OS/browser best. I noticed that the Sun plug-in doesn't do Unicode clipboard operations correct, etc. At least MS got that right in their JVM.
Point three, RMI was a bad idea. JNI is much nicer.
Point four, it seems that the immovable rock has met the irresistable force. It's just corporate stubbornness that prevents these two from working together. Like it or not they are a good match. Grow up you two and play nice!
Point five, a thin Java client based OS is a good idea. Maybe Java and Linux can get together to defeat the evil looming.NET that will enslave yet another generation to the MS empire.
Point six, someone, some day will invent a byte-code CPU and it will be fast. (A JVM is versistile but cost you in the performance department.) What software will it run? If MS abstains from Java/byte-code they are going to miss out on possible future markets. Maybe this is a good thing. Or, are they going to create yet another (God help us) HAL for the their Windows NT platform and not take advantage of the inherent advantages of an all Java machine? (Gain of salt alert: I made the same prediction with p-code in the Apple II+ era and found myself eating my words since a p-code CPU never caught on.)
If you're going to play in the same sand-box (hehe) you've got to learn not to throw sand. A strategic alliance between Sun and MS would go along way to making my life as a programmer a lot easier.
Re:I would still be concerned though
by
jafac
·
· Score: 2
hm - installation of VC++ 6.0 *requires* that the MS JVM be installed in IE. ..
-- These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
I've done very minimal fiddling with java so bear with me on this.
What is it about Java that makes it frequently go zombie? (The zombies are generally dead forks of Netscape, which seriously hamper the live ones. This is on Winboxen; I don't see it much on other platforms, and I shun IE unless a page won't display in NS.)
Is it a fundamental problem in the Win/Netscape plugin interpreter or is it bad design on the part of the app coder?
Microsoft bailed out of Java a while ago: Visual J++ has been sold, and the official.NET policy on Java seems to be: "We don't support that."
The only JVM that will be coming from Microsoft will be the one inside IE (or whatever they call it nowadays). And maybe they'll just ditch that in favor of Sun's Java plugin.
What does this really mean for Java? On one side, there's MS, one there's Oracle, Sun, HP and a host of other vendors. Who will "win" in the end? Impossible to say.
-- WWTTD?
Re:The 1.3 JDK is available for all(most) platorms
by
tchristney
·
· Score: 1
Sure, but not yet on MacOS. And the last version that will be available for MacOS 9 or less is 1.1.8. Basically, Mac users have to wait until MacOS X ships in late March, and then only if they are willing and able to upgrade to the new OS. For example, people with pre-G3 PPC's are out of the loop unless they go to some flavour of linux. Many Mac users will never make that step.
Re:What Java technology can do that C# and .NET ca
by
malachid69
·
· Score: 1
First of all, there isn't ANY webpage you NEED to visit (Java or no). I am also using Opera5. I downloaded it without Java because it automatically used one of the 4-5 implementations I currently have installed (Netscapes, I think).
However, when talking about web development, you are right. You do not need Java as long as everything you see is static. However, I doubt if all the last 10 pages you went to were. Java is the ONLY cross-browser option for web development. Do the research. XML isn't yet. DHTML definitely isn't. Javascript isn't. I have about 10 browsers installed for compatability testing -- and MOST pages that do ANYTHING dynamically work on (at the most) 2 of the 3 most popular (Netscape, IE, and Opera).
Personally, I visit a LOT of sites with Opera that do not work correctly, and I have to load Netscape or something to use it (menus, search results, whatever). For example, pull up www.hotbot.com, do a search, then click on Revise Search. Don't know about you, but it doesn't work on my copy. It would (on all browsers) if it was Java.
And people complain that they don't want to use Java because it is too slow? I challenge you to find another way to incorporate interactive Lightware scenes in a web page for 2k....
Re:What Java technology can do that C# and .NET ca
by
Kisc
·
· Score: 1
How, exactly, is that going to slow Microsoft down any?
Do they care about any of those platforms? Answer honestly, now.
Failure is not an option.
--
Failure is not an option.
It comes bundled with Windows.
Irony: Apple's now doing same to Java as MS did
by
mactari
·
· Score: 1
The degree to which Java can integrate in platform-specific ways with Apple's "soon" to be released OS X is even more incestuous than it ever was with VJ++ (not that I care as long as the plat-neutral stuff's all there).
Check this pdf from Apple's Developer resources. Surprising what you can do without a monopoly.;^D
Ruffin Bailey
"This may be the fault of the interpreter, in which case HE is the hippopotamus."
--
It's all 0s and 1s. Or it's not.
Re:umm... isn't MIT one of those 'elite schools' ?
by
alexhmit01
·
· Score: 2
6.001 (Intro CS), 6.034 (AI) etc., still use Scheme (MIT Lisp's derivative).
I included MIT in the elite shcools.
The difference, 1.00 (taught to Civil Engineers and Business Majors) is Java based (although it might be C++ one term and Java the other, it's hard to keep track off).
6.170, the software engineering lab of Computer Science required for all CSE majors is in Java now, not CLU.
Everyone graduating from MIT with a CS degree knows Java.
Java is useful for teaching software engineering because you focus on design strategy instead of debugging pointers. For MIT, the real world benefit is uninteresting, we're expected to learn new languages quickly. For "lower tier" schools (not to be insulting, hence the quites), like local colleges and community colleges, Java will become increasingly used. This is important, because if you need a lot of programmers, the bulk will be people that learn pragmatic details.
My point is, Computer Scientists will learn whatever language. Computer Programmers will use the few they were taught, and Java is likely to be one of them.
As far as "the best teaching language", I feel Python is a pretty good choice.
Python is an extremely well-laid language, one where whitespace is significant, one line of
source is one statement (no free form semicolon-terminated lines, with exception of triple quoted text), and indentation is significant.
Unlike direct C derivitaves (C++, Java), variables need not be declared, and because it's semi-interpreted, it is easy to pick up.
Unlike Perl, it's damned neat and no one's going to have an Obfuscated Python contest.
It's a language with extreme real world exposure. Episode I was engineered with quickly brewed Python.
Don't get me wrong. I like learning other languages. However, as a starter, Python kicks.
-- I used to be someone else. Now I'm someone better. Real life is underrated.
Sun does *not* concentrate on Windows
by
fm6
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· Score: 2
I was actually working for Sun during much of the JDK 1.2 effort, and I can assure you that Windows and Solaris development goes strictly in tandem, or at least it did when I was there. But even then Sun was fielding complaints that Solaris Java was "trailing" Windows Java. This had nothing to do with the actual software, and a lot to do with Sun's bureaucratic and baroque release and distribution channels. Rivalry and miscommunication betwen Javasoft and Sunsoft (these opcos are officially dead, but their cultures are still in place) didn't help either.
Probably a lot of the Javasoft people would like nothing better than to concentrate on the Windows JDK, and perhaps bring the Linux JDK in-house. From their point of view it's silly to give equal effort to the Solaris JDK, which accounts for 10% of the downloads. But for better or worse, Sun's base business is hardware, and they can't afford the slightest hint that they're not fully supporting that hardware.
As most of us know Microsoft was out to get Java from the start.
I've come to see Microsoft as the modern equivalent of the Borgia family. Microsoft, like the Borgias, is greedy, power-hungry, ruthless, aggressive, unprincipled, and has made a lot of enemies. So in both cases people believe every rumor and nasty inference.
"Everybody knows" that Lucrezia Borgia slept with her father and poisoned her lovers on a weekly basis -- "facts" which have no historical basis. By the same token, everybody feels free to infer malicious motives to every strange action by Microsoft, even when they shoot themselves in the foot.
Java is a case in point. As every Word user or COM programmer knows, MS loves to totally redesign things, and to heck with backward compatibility or predictable product behavior. MS can't even maintain consistency with its own APIs. Is it very suprising they couldn't resist redesigning the language and "improving" the API? Especially when they had just hired Anders Hejlsberg, compiler wizard and architect of the much-beloved Delphi Visual Component Library.
A lot of MS's actions have more to do with technical bigotry, personal animosity, and plain old compulsive bit-twidling than with fiendish plans or self-interest. Which is not to say that MS lacks in these things. But the fiendish plans are often overrated, and the self-interest often takes a back seat to less mature motives.
Slashdot Mirror
As messed up as this sounds.....there goes my java implemented CS Degree. Note to self, Buy MSFT
I guess .NET is looking good for Microsoft now... "compile once, run anywhere" (except non-ms OS's)
``This settlement will not impact our customers or current products in any way and will allow us to focus our time and resources on what we do best: developing great software.'' If thats not a big lie, I don't know what is
"The heresy of one age becomes the orthodoxy of the next" - Helen Keller
So they'll be dropping ALL Java support? As in, no more VJ++, no JVM, and no Java support in IE? What the hell am I supposed to do with the two semesters of intro programming in Java I'm taking? Java is required here!!
You know exactly what to do-
Your kiss, your fingers on my thigh-
You know exactly what to do-
Your kiss, your fingers on my thigh-
I think of little else but you.
I completely love Java through and through. However, I'm glad there will be a language similar to Java that embodies many of the same features, i.e. C#. This will lead to both languages competing with each other (hopefully) and in the end produce more options and better products. This lawsuit makes me wonder if C# would even exist if Sun weren't so protective of Java.
This Microsoft press release has an embarrasing ammount of "rah-rah" cheerleading, right up there to the same level as Steve Jobs in full blast at MacWorld. (There goes my karma; both sides will moderate me down now.)
Sure, I expect a press release to be from the releaser's point of view, and even a bit of spin, but really, it ought to be toned down from "preaching to the faithful" levels for a general press release.
Micro$oft Java.
Oh well..
Here.
The original link WAS Microsoft's side. Did you see the "SOURCE: Microsoft Corp." at the bottom? Or perhaps did you notice that there were quotes from Microsoft officials but no quotes from Sun? And how likely is is that an indepenent journalist or Sun would include the following: "About Microsoft
Founded in 1975, Microsoft is the worldwide leader in software, services and Internet technologies for personal and business computing "
dont forget that HP clean room chai could get there for MS .NET
JAVA AS A ISO would rock and kill most of this wrangleing and SUN could make money from the libs to vendors
regards
john jones
If Java on the desktop was usefull it would be a threat to MS. Unfortunately Java on the desktop has been mostly hype (please note I qualified that with mostly, YOUR spinning cube is amazing).
Given that it's relatively useless and a potential threat it's no suprise MS dumped it.
It appears Java's future lies on the server.
When are we going to get a good OO language that isn't hung up on this crossplatform binary compatability?
This is awesome.
Everyday it seems like Microsoft is doing more and more to dig it's own grave. It's still acting like it's the big dog in town and can just decide which standards it will choose to use and which it wont. The only two places java really matters is on servers and in browsers. And while they may own the browser market at the moment they cant NOT support it because Sun can just make a an ActiveX control that embeds it. But the DON'T own the server market, not even close. Their avarice will lead to their own extinction. It's only a matter of time.
Sun's take is linked from http://www.sun.com/2001-0123/audiocast/. Sorry, a direct link didn't work (silly session id in the URL).
About Microsoft
Founded in 1975, Microsoft is the worldwide leader in software, services and Internet technologies for personal and business computing.
The company offers a wide range of products and services designed to empower people through great software -- any time, any place and on any device.
I realize this is a Microsoft press release, but I was half expecting an entry follow it saying something regarding Sun. Humor escapes me at the moment, but you can imagine what they would like to say..
Humorous post without a punchline? Down, please..
Yeah... just to make things clear, _without_ sounding too much like a dick, the article was begotten via PR Newsiwire, which is a press release channel. It's basically Microsoft's official spin on it. Nothing more, nothing less, and having nothing to do with journalism.
``The Microsoft .NET platform is the best way to build, deliver and aggregate Web Services, and Microsoft is committed to helping software developers build Web Services with whatever programming language is most appropriate for their particular needs.''
Well, this seems to be the party line for the forseeable future.
While the Technology looks promising, the big problem is their track record. Ultimately, the old saw of never buying version 1.0 of anything is very true of MS products.
This is just my opinion, based on my experience. Even if I want to trust that vision, I find that I cannot. I have been burned too often. In each case, it as a matter of a litte less value, for a little more money. Maybe I exagerate, but that is what it seems like.
and so I make a comment only slightly tongue in cheek when I saw that I am slightly concerned about the World Wide Web becoming Microsoft's fishing .NET
It makes me nervous.
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
Why would a company, who's soooo good at monopolizing everything, support something that is similar to c#? Bob the Destroyer
Anyway...
It's been interesting to look at how Microsoft and Sun have gone head-to-head in the open market in the past. I am talking about the competition to Microsoft's Office suite found in the form of Sun's StarOffice. A lot can be said about the advantages and disadvantages of each respective product, however Microsoft will probably always be the market leader for office products.
In the end, I think it comes down to which company has the better marketing machine behind them. The key to seeing which platform (C# vs. Java) will rule the industry will be found in the Marketing Expense columns of each company's balance sheets.
--
To me, this looks like a major hiccup for Microsoft. Under the terms of this agreement, MS has permanently lost the rights to the Java Compatible trademark. From the Sun press release:
With the contract terminated, Sun and Microsoft have agreed to end the current litigation, initiated in October, 1997 before Judge Ronald M. Whyte in U.S. District Court in San Jose, under the following general terms:
- The Court will enter a permanent injunction barring Microsoft from using the JAVA COMPATIBLE trademark. Previously, the Court found that Microsoft had distributed incompatible implementations of the Java technology, and the court entered a preliminary injunction barring Microsoft from using the JAVA COMPATIBLE trademark on these incompatible products.
- To protect developers and consumers who have already invested in Microsofts implementations of the Java technology, Sun has agreed to grant Microsoft a limited license to continue shipping essentially as is its currently shipping implementations of the outdated 1.1.4 version of the Java technology. Those products have already been modified to comply with injunctions secured by Sun in the litigation. The license covers only the products that already contain the Java technology, and lasts only for seven years.
Beyond that, Microsoft has no rights to distribute the Java technology, or to otherwise use any of Suns intellectual property.To those who believe this sounds the death knell for Java, think again. Microsoft is now in the unenviable position of not being able to use the most widely recognised java trademark, while its competitors (Sun, Netscape and others) will be able to capitalize on it. This agreement is even wider than Java, stopping MS from licensing, distributing or making use of any of Suns Intellectual Property either. That may make C#'s passage into the world a little tricky if Sun has much of the Java technology patented...
C# doesn't cut it. It's not here now and Java is and has been for six years.C# is still months off release and even at the first release it won't get wide use until the development tools and toolkits catch up. That will hurt.
Cheers,
Toby Haynes
Anything I post is strictly my own thoughts and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the opinions of IBM.
Sun should have dropped their suit against Microsoft, atleast if Microsoft had kept their license and hadn't been sued Java would have taken off as a programming language-- now with Microsoft support due to die in seven years (if I read the report correctly) we can welcome C# in for the long haul. Java can still proliferate on Linux/etc, but I just don't see it making the kind of impact it could have had with Microsoft involved.
All I know about Bush is I had a good job when Clinton was president.
anyone seriously thought that MS would continue to support Java. MS loves the bait and switch. "Here, we support OS/2....'cept we call it Windows NT." I still remember using NT3.5 and getting !!OS/2!! errors. The strange thing is that MS doesn't seem to mind burning millions until they figure out what exactly to do about an emerging technology. They jump on the bandwagon, pour cash into something and then just take what they think is good....dunno....
Founded in 1975, Microsoft is the worldwide leader in software, services and Internet technologies for personal and business computing. The company offers a wide range of products and services designed to empower people through great software -- any time, any place and on any device.
Are they serious? Is this section for all those readers of Yahoo Business News who had never previously heard of Microsoft?
I didn't pay for my operating system either
MSFT wrote the best and fastest compiler for Java hands down when Sun started this stupidity. RMI was a freakin' mess, Netscape caused half of it, and then Sun comes after MSFT. There are cases where MSFT does some annoying stuff, like forcing MSN bookmarks in IE, but this one I can't fault them for. I give a big middle finger to Sun for blowing what Java could have been.
The frightening thing about Windows development is how much languages need to have the support of MS
Actually nothing will change on the Java front. People doing Java development were not using MS development software in the first place as:
a. it sucked horribly, and
b. it was not real Java anyway
And they definitely do not depend on MS, that is the whole point of using Java.
Yes some support from Microsoft is necessary: that of Windows allowing a JVM to run. But it would be pretty difficult for MS to go as far as preventing that don't you think?
There are a lot of companies that do not see a product, business practice, language or whatever as being valid unles it has MS support
Yes, there are. But again, these are not the companies that were using Java in the first place.Yet another example of intellectual property rights being used to do the right thing...
Thalia
Microsoft, I mean. They never knew how to play their hand right. Gates was moneyed from the start, with his father's fortune from the bootlegging days, and Bill's Harvard degree. But he never had the sense knocked into him, y'know?
When I first got started in this industry, it took me thirty years for me to hear the name "Microsoft", and it wasn't because I was off on Madagascar with the lemurs or nothing. It was because Microsoft didn't even exist yet. Didn't even exist. Do you remember what that was like? Some day you kids will tell your young rascals about what it was like to walk to school up-hill both ways knee-deep in AOL cds, but there was a time when these conglomerates didn't exist. That was when IBM was all we needed, the big blue momma. Man, could IBM shine. And then they were shoved out of the PC industry by that devil Microsoft and that whore Intel. I will never forget that day when my boss came in and gave us the news. Wow.
And here's Microsoft getting shoved around by Sun, now. And with the law on someone else's side, too. You never saw IBM make that mistake, no sir. IBM knew how to play its antitrust hand, and IBM knew how to deal with upstarts. IBM is up there next to General Motors in my book, and not just because they made me the man I am (just as GM made me the man I was in the backseat of that Chevy Sport Coupe that summer back in, well darn, it's slipped my mind). Microsoft? No one will remember them in twenty years. Heh, and I won't be around to see it happen, neither.
Sun can keep Java. As long as they don't touch my cobol. It wasn't my first language, but man could I make that baby fly like a greased pig out of an oil can. Object oriented? Object sharing? Classes? My parents' generation taught us in primary school to share, and anything we wanted to learn about classes we learned in the streets with a switchblade. That's why Bill and Microsoft never got off the ground. No common sense. No street sense. If he'd have walked for one mile in another man's long underwear, he'd have known that you don't mess with another man's shoes. Or his Java, either.
Good riddens, Microsoft. I spit on the mockery you've made of us all. You are not welcome at the family barbequeue in Jersey.
Read the rest of this comment...
I dare say I'm quite relieved at this, it means less support for Java throughout the industry, and nothing could be better.
Java is slow, worthless, and I'd rather see an OS written in C++ than any application written in Java.
I think MS is too lenient on money hungry shitheads like Sun. They should end all support for anything Java related - they shouldn't even allow Java crapplets to run in their browser.
Like Sun, Oracle, or any other crap ass money hungry company wouldn't piss on Microsoft and leave them for bankruptcy if they had the chance. I don't want to sound too pro-MS here, but when I code in Java at my day job - everyday feels more and more like I am just using duck tape and bailing wire to create uglyness.
J2EE? What a bunch of marketing hype bullshit - I can't believe the industry standard is moving towards this bucket full of crap ass acronyms. Whenever I here a marketing person ask "will it be developed using the J2EE framework" - I want to slap the bitch 2 times with my open hand.
So stupid
Oracle.
no no. not yay at all, this is terrible terrible news..
if, as i suspect they will, MS remove java support from IE then my world will be a much sadder more boring place.
interestingly, as soon as I installed the PDC developers edition (including C# etc) java in the browser stopped working.
booo..
--
http://switch.to/miles
Think about it, if Micro$oft is pulling Java from IE, etc then Mozilla will gain popularity. Some people need java and Mozilla provides this.
-ShawnX
---
Everyone wants a Tux in their life.
I completely love Java through and through. However, I'm glad there will be a language similar to Java that embodies many of the same features, i.e. C#. This will lead to both languages competing with each other (hopefully) and in the end produce more options and better products. This lawsuit makes me wonder if C# would even exist if Sun weren't so protective of Java.
Everyday it seems like Microsoft is doing more and more to dig it's own grave. It's still acting like it's the big dog in town and can just decide which standards it will choose to use and which it wont. The only two places java really matters is on servers and in browsers. And while they may own the browser market at the moment they cant NOT support it because Sun can just make a an ActiveX control that embeds it. But the DON'T own the server market, not even close. Their avarice will lead to their own extinction. It's only a matter of time.
I didn't know that Microsoft actually supported Java. When you take a competitor's product, change it slightly so it's not compatible, and call it your own... well, I guess that's just par for the course at Microsoft.
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
----
http://www.msgeek.org/ -- Because you can't keep a geek grrl down!
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
A better slogan might be -- compile once interpret anywhere ... I think "run" is getting a bit loose with the language.
Free Techno/Jazz/DNB/MI Music by guys obsessed with monkeys!
Micro$oft Java
Java is a trademark of Sun Microsystems. Could that be why Microsoft is calling its next J*v*-like product .NET instead of Java?
Like Tetris? Like drugs? Ever try combining them?
Will I retire or break 10K?
Except That Mozilla sucks ass!
---- It puts the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again. It does this whenever it's told.
For now, Im sure it'll get faster. It's come a long way since I used it. It can't get any worse then it is now ;)
---
Everyone wants a Tux in their life.
Both
Microsoft has many good things about them. But, they have a few critically bad things. These things should be the reasons we bash MS:
1. They monopolize the computer industry and stifle competition.
2. They do not open their source so that other developers can create software on an even playing field with them.
3. They are not responsive to fixing flaws in their systems that are discovered by the community at large.
4. They overcharge for their software and force their clients into a nasty, anti-competetive business relationship.
None of these are "bash Microsoft because their software sucks." Now, it's true that Windows is below par, but that's not the only thing they do.
Calm down. Poor quality software is the *worst* reason to bash a closed-source, inflexable, monopolizing corporation. Fundamental matters of principle carry a lot more weight.
I dare you to find me an application that java can handle that C# cannot - TODAY.
Three things Java technology can do that C# andLike Tetris? Like drugs? Ever try combining them?
Will I retire or break 10K?
Slowly and fairly quietly, M$ seems to be cleaning up its high profile cases. Although the government case is the highest profile case I can remember, this is the least number of total cases I can remember in since I've been following M$.
-Moondog
They've shelled out $20M + legal costs to screw Java. That seems much cheaper than developing, marketing, and supporting a truly competing technology. This way, they've demolished Java (be realistic, without MS backing Java will go the way of Pascal) and are free to develop and market their not-so-competitive platform without any real competition.
Think outside the... Hey, where'd the friggin' box go?
COM and COM+ are sweet distributed computing models, but a big chunk of the financial and large transactional industries (our clients) are using CORBA/EJB/C++ for their systems. I'm not saying there isn't still a big demand for COM/Visual C/VB developers out there... but the dev teams with bigtime projects seems to favor Java and CORBA. Upshot... I think MSFT is in for a very rough ride if they don't open their eyes, and I'm perfectly happy running W2k on my desktop. http://www.roytalman.com
www.hiredinsight.com
I'd rather see an OS written in C++
The version of IE for Macintosh computers seems to be written in C++ (I've ResEdited version 3.0 before.) The Windows version is most likely also in C++, and it's considered part of the OS (it has a Supplemental EULA just like this instead of the full EULA). I don't know what other parts of Windows are written in C++, but I'd say at least 25 percent.
That's funny, Microsoft.com is responding with HTTP Error 500 Server Too Busy.
The KDE desktop for GNU/Linux, BSD, and UNIX systems is written almost entirely in C++.
Like Tetris? Like drugs? Ever try combining them?
Will I retire or break 10K?
it's about time Micro$oft got put in their place about stealing other peoples stuff.
As most of us know Microsoft was out to get Java from the start. Their reasons were quite simple really: they feared and hated what they could not control. Over the past 5(more/less?) years we have seen microsoft make many attempts at destroying java. Many of these attacks have been only partially successful, although they have removed Java from some areas, it is still quite strong in others. As some of you may know, Java is the most common language taught in College Comp Sci courses. In the past 2 years schools have been increasingly moving away from c++ and closer to java. I believe this recent victory of Microsoft will barely influence college's choice to use Java.
A rabbit in the hand is worth 4 in the cage
M$ has just compounded the C# mistake (try to do a search with 'C#', :-)
They're going to try to ramp up C# to use the VB VM. They realize that C# doesn't quite cut it as a language (like they care about semantic and syntactic purity,) and that VB's VM is pokin' slow and its been cracked to bits.
M$ don't care but they should.
VMs are bitches to write and the best one is produced by the folks with the most experience (Namely the ParcPlace Smalltalk VM that's been honed and whetted by experience since 1977.) Java's second with 1996. Nineteen years difference.
Man we Smalltalkers laugh at VB-ers, Java-ers and C# should be good for a ROTFL.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
Microsoft settled for VERY intelligent reasons. They need to conserve their legal resources. They got embarassed in the anti-trust suit, and with the findings of fact, there was no way that they'd win this suit.
The injuction about the logo wasn't too big a deal. MS doesn't need it. However, this goes beyond the logo.
They can't use Sun's IP. That means that they can't produce a Java anything. They can keep their existing Java software on the market for 7 years, (very key, screwing with Visual Studio now would annoy them) but they can't make more.
This means that the JVM plug-ins can be used preventing MSIE broken Java. With the next version, the Java VM disappears. Now, it is questionable if a third-party can write a reasonably fast Windows JVM, but who knows.
Java is taught at MIT, it is taught at most schools. Except the "elite" CS schools that still teach whatever their developed version of LISP is, most schools are teaching Java starting from the intros. With the CS curriculum in HS switching, Java programmers will be prevalent.
This won't change. Java is a REALLY good teaching language. Yes, there are easier ones, but schools don't like teaching strange tech. They want to be able to be "real world" enough to interest students. C++ has been a nightmare, Pascal was long dead when it was given up, Java is a nice language. It is easy to teach CS principles in it.
Java will still run on Windows. However, it will be a Sun or IBM Java VM, not a MS one. This means that MS can't break compatibility. Sun won. MS settled because they'd lose everything in the case. Also, this is good for MS Spin because they "drop support" for Java. However, Java won't go away.
Java IDEs are getting better. They will replace VB for "stupid apps." Meaning, I can write my DB applications in Java (possibly for JSP deployment via web browser), and run them on Solaris, Linux, and Macintosh, plus Windows. Someone will have to write a good VM for Windows, but it can be done. Also, Win2K helps here.
Win2K makes it easy to deploy applications across the Enterprise (if you are big enough to waste the time to learn all the stuff for it). This means that big companies can deploy the new VM quickly. This will help Java.
MacOS X is going to help Java, Mac will probably be able to build up to 10-15% of the user base. Why? With the Internet, the local platform matters less, and MacOS X is intuitive and powerful. I expect Linux to grab about 5%-10% of the userbase as it becomes more easily used.
MS will maintain 75%-80%, but a unified front of MacOS/Linux (via Java and a shared UNIX/BSD background) will prevent the monopolization of the past as long as the anti-trust lawsuit stays around.
Expect MacOS X.1 or whatever they call it to support X natively, that will let open source apps run on it. Microsoft isn't going away, they aren't going under, they may not even shrink (the market is still expanding, albeit slowly), but their ability to force everyone out will be gone soon, and Java may do it.
This DOES justify Sun's keeping Java proprietary. That's why MS couldn't kill it with Embrace and Extend. Open Source can "win" in that nobody can destroy it, but it can't "win" in the legal game. Sun was able to fight off MS, even if they weren't as pure with their code as we'd like.
Can anyone connect to any host of microsoft.com? I just got a call from someone who cannot connect to microsoft.com and I can't either. Is something up with that domain? Ok, which one of you script kiddies is responsible for this?
They get to carry on with current stuff for another seven years.
Come off it. Java is plenty fast for almost any application, especially on the server side, where it really shines (in some cases it outperforms C++). It's no longer necessary to do low-level performance optimization for most mission-critical enterprise-class applications. Today's processors and current JVMs and JITs are more than fast enought to handle the job. Besides, you get far more optimization milage when you look at it from a structural standpoint rather than from the code level.
-Vercingetorix
-Vercingetorix
"Necessitas non habet legem." -St. Augustine
- Microsoft's innovations. Feel free to knock their OS'es, but their language experience is great. They built a wickedly fast (albeit nonstandard) JVM way before anyone else could.
- Top-notch tools. Dev studio is one of the slickest IDE's out there, and puts the other clumsy, bug-ridden java tools to shame (jbuilder, cafe).
- Exposure. Like it or not, Microsoft represents the majority. Losing MS won't make it any easier for java to gain mainstream acceptance. Wouldn't it be great if IE5 supported Java 2 right out of the box?
Slashdot: come for the pedantry, stay for the condescension.
With the release of Visual Studio.NET, Microsoft has opened up the IDE to third-party language developers (the first time this has happened), and word has it that a third-party is already working on a Java language implementation. As such, this may very well be a non-issue.
it would be bad publicity if the next version of IE was not able to run Java at all
Yes, very bad for Microsoft.
Now MS drops another thing that could keep them alive longer !
That's good news, man !
I can get drunk in the morning. You, on the other hand, will still be a fag.
I believe that's a Winston Churchill reference (he was a bit of a drunken manic-depressive). One evening at dinner, a lady says to Churchill, "You are drunk, horribly drunk!". Churchill replies, "Madam, you are ugly, horribly ugly, but in the morning, I shall be sober."
Now there was a great quick witted drunken bastard.
Your comment makes the unwritten assumption that MS is the only way Java can be developed and/or implemented on an M$ box/databse/OS.
Borland, Metrowerks, Netscape, AOL, Whoever *CAN* produce compliant (and labeled appropriately) Java tools/apps for an M$ system. I dont see how M$, as one vendor, halts support on the entire platform. Perl and Apache run on just fine on M$, as does Java under Netscape/Mozilla (except Java on the current Linux builds, which sucks, but i digress).
The real "win" here is that MS can no longer kill Java by embracing it and essentially polluting it until its only of use to Gates and company. Maybe now we can force them to use the *correct* version.
Hey Bill: McNealy OWNZ you!!! :-)
..Brent
"One musn't enthone ignorance simply because there is so much of it."
Moderators need an additional choice: "Karma Whore" for people who cut-and-paste articles as their comments!
That was vaporous dude.
You've committed the ultimate crime: One line indirect denial of fact by suggestion.
Java IS a standard. There are rules that must be followed so that products including Java implementations can be branded Java compatible.
That is the definition of a standard.
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
because languages are becoming irrelevant. or more specifically, differences between languages are becoming irrelevant. remember 10 years ago when the only way to write a fast app was to code in C? these days, you can get almost the same performance from any number of languages. what happens when all user-land code is relegated to the same run-time sandbox? does the language matter at all?
.NET, a platform with true language independence, and Sun/Java suddenly looks much less attractive.
.NET and it's language independence is remarkable. i can (and have) written a class in Python, inherited from that class in VB, and debugged the two together as a Perl app. seems to me that with .NET, i'm getting my cake and eating it, too.
on the one hand, a language independent compiler or byte-code is a good thing because it provides an additional layer of abstraction, but in the specific case of Java, Sun has made a very determined effort to associate Java the language with Java the byte-code. (or if you're a half-empty kinda person, Sun has not made the effort to distinguish between the two). if the language becomes less important, so does the byte-code. enter
i don't mean to spew off MS FUD, but what they've done with
"For its part, Microsoft is permitted to use a version of Java in Microsoft products that already contain it or are in beta for the next seven years, according to Microsoft. " - ZDNet Java will even be used in the .NET platform and .NET is going to last very long.
Wrong.
Sun AND IBM both make excellent Java VMs for Win32.
Java will continue to flourish on Win3 and other platforms. There just wont be the incomapatable, Un-java, MSVM around to confuse people.
This is good news all around for Java.
Yep.
You clearly understand it.
Its frightening how many people don't. I was going to post to try to educate a few but you';ve posted evrything I was going to try to explain.
This is a good day for Java. Without the threat of the MS fatal-embrace we might even see some loosening of the restrictions.
The issue in web develupment is simple. You need to support IE. If IE dosn't support Java then nither can you.
But occasionally you have to ignore compatability to get a feature working. IE won't do it but Netscape will..
This is a major boost for Netscape becouse websites won't be able to throw away Java overnight.
This is a boost for Linux sence we don't have IE to run MsJava and are pritty much stuck with SunJava and Netscape Java (Sun Java is used by Konquer)
This is an injury not a death..
But now Microsoft must try to kill Java to continue to push IE.. Sun must kill IE to continue to push Java...
Eather way Netscape gains levrage.. and we gain levrage...
It's not a death... not yet... Java is alive... IE is alive... And now the real battle begins...
I don't actually exist.
Hmm.. I should read the article. But if it says basically what the summary says, which is that MS won't be keeping Java around, I think MS made a Really Bad Move.
Microsoft is still behaving as though they own the planet. Maybe they will be able to hold on, but I think they are just digging themselves into a hole. The trends I'm seeing in the tech market are toward open standards (though that might just be because of where I get my tech news). Microsoft appears to be continuing in the other direction, toward full integration of their entire software line upon proprietary standards.
The market is turning into two camps: Microsoft and Anything But Microsoft. Lines are being drawn, and I think MS will shortly be on the retreat, rethinking these ideas...
--
Java Plug-in or Java Web Start
Either solves your IE problem.
>> M$ don't care but they should.
I think you make a valid point about the complexity of VMs, but isn't this always the standard modus operandi for Microsoft.
Microsoft will take an inferior product (IE 3.0, Word 5.0, Excel) and shoehorn it in to compete against the dominate program in the marketplace (Netscape, Wordperfect, Lotus) and then let their marketing department push it onto the desktop.
After time, they throw in everything including the kitchen sink and eventually have more features then the competition.
Time will tell. May god have mercy on us.
When this mess started I felt that it was a no win situation. If MS won then Java was going to be fragmented, if Sun won then Java was going to be left in the hands of a bunch of clowns. So here we are; Microsoft lost the battle, Sun will lose the war.
We all lose.
Now we will get brain dead attempts by M$ to cripple JVMs and strange new Java-like languages that only run (slowly) on M$ OS's. Java will become even more of an entrenched Sun-only toy, never getting the input it needs to make it reliable enough for the big league.
Yuck!
They're going to try to ramp up C# to use the VB VM. They realize that C# doesn't quite cut it as a language (like they care about semantic and syntactic purity,) and that VB's VM is pokin' slow and its been cracked to bits.
That's rather incorrect. The Common Language Runtime (CLR, the core of .NET development) is not the VB Runtime. Totally different technologies. If anything, VB7 will target the CLR, not the other way around with C# targetting VBRUN.
Do some research before you start spouting, or you'll look like a fool.
But on a more personal note, I just tried to post something here, Straight from the site, to make fun of micro$haft, and I couldn't.(lamnness filter) So just go to the site, and look at what microsoft is defined by yahoo. And notice that there is no account of what Sun is.
Alas, poor clippy, I loath him so.
Same with Java technology. It's not limited to the Java language; any language that can be preprocessed into the Java language (covers Basic, C, and COBOL), compiled into JVM bytecode (covers Java, JVM assembly language, ML, C, Ada, Eiffel, Python, Smalltalk, and Haskell), or interpreted easily (covers Tcl/Tk, Forth, Perl, Lisp/Scheme, EcmaScript, Logo, Prolog, and Python) can be used with the Java platform. And there are many more.
Like Tetris? Like drugs? Ever try combining them?
Will I retire or break 10K?
As long as developers can bundle the Java Runtime Environment installer for Windows, Windows Java Apps won't suffer at all.
You are in a maze of twisty little relative jumps, all alike.
Heck, compared to say the 53MB of Unreal Tournament Demo, it's insignificant.
So Sun succeeds in stopping the busting up of the Java platform, ensuring the integrity, and also calls off the fight as soon as the market has removed a large chunk of the barriers that were working against them from going without MS anyways.
I think the settlement is great, and I also think that Java will do fine, and .NET will likely succeed as well. MS programmers will move to .NET and C#, and everyone else will use Java, C++ (or maybe C# if it gets standardized. It is pretty clean) and C. (Insert your favourite other language including but not limited to Python, Perl, Lisp, Smalltalk, Eiffel and Ada here).
While I think Sun Java is a good system, it is old technology. If Sun has patents on any fundamental aspect of Java or Java implementations, those patents are unlikely to be valid, and if there is any significant economic incentive for challenging them, they will be challenged.
Sun may have legally valid patents on some peripheral aspects of Java that they can use to make it hard for others to produce compliant implementations. But trying to enforce such patents against third party implementations would be suicide for the Java platform.
Agreed, if you are distributing software via CD or large download, including the JRE is trivial. Indeed, if there is a standard way to verify that it is installed (trivial with the Windows Registry, there are advantages to it, even if its a pain in the ass), you can include it without a problem. It shouldn't be a much bigger deal than the MFC/VB runtimes included copies that we used to use in the past.
:)
Now the Sun JREs blow, they need to be improved and optimized. Unfortunately, it is harder to write a JRE without the OS Code. However, I don't know how much that matters.
When I had a Pentium 75, I used to think that Java was unbearably slow, because it would run at half the speed of native code. With a Pentium 166, it was annoying. With my K6-3 450, I wouldn't want to run a spreadsheet in Java. With my Athlon/P3 machines at the office (and what every new computer user has), it is insignificant.
JIT has probably gotten runtime to 80%-90% of native code for "real apps" (where you run the application for a while, so it can optimize), and the 50% hit for trivial apps doesn't matter because they're trivial. Intel/AMD compensated for Java's speed.
Thanks for the vote of confidence, I try. :)
:)
Enough of us aren't mindless twits, you'd think that we could all make an effort to post more often so that the unknowledgable users don't dominate. I mean, real posts almost always get a useful mod up, so browing at 2+ or 3+ gets good stuff, I just wish it wasn't always 7 of 300.
Alex
There just wont be the incomapatable, Un-java, MSVM around to confuse people.
Which is *exactly* the point. Java has breathing room now. Whether it makes it or not...well we'll see. But its chances are *greatly* improved now that MS can't continue extinguishing it.
There are already several open source implementations: Intel's open runtime, GNU gcj, TransVirtual's Kaffe, and Japhar. They are incomplete and not fully compatible, but they are getting better, and they offer some useful non-100%-Java add-ons. And because they aren't called "Java", people don't get confused. Everybody is happy.
Even Microsoft can freely implement themselves something that works like Java and runs existing Java code. They just can't try to confuse their customers about what they are getting: that's what trademarks are for.
Microsoft doesn't have any control over that. The IE architecture allows people to plug in whatever they want. If they don't provide support for Java in IE, Sun or someone else will, including auto download and auto install.
No, wait, what was I thinking? Fag.
You won't believe this but, just before I hit submit, I got the impulse to add "Ok, so I guess I'm a fag." But then, never frustrate a fag-caller.
I haven't looked into the details of what the agreement states in terms of settlement and just how much (or how little) involvement Microsoft can have in Java from now on, but it makes me wonder whether Sun wouldn't be more interested in the standards process for Java now that Microsoft is unable to "muddle" with the spec.
Any thoughts anyone?
I think Microsoft misrepresents the complexity and timeframe of what they are attempting, but you overestimate it. Good dynamic runtimes and dynamic compilers are non-trivial, but there have been considerably more than ParcPlace and Java. In fact, you can get about half a dozen good, mature ones in open source off the net.
Microsoft has the resources to build a good dynamic runtime, but getting the bugs out and the tuning still requires real-world feedback. My guess is that it will probably take them 3-4 years to produce something decent. Until then, they merely need to give the appearance that they are producing something decent, something that MS marketing is quite good at.
Agreed. His was the best post today, for sure, and maybe the best I've read this month. Consise, no religion, and involving the principal matters. Glad to see it got a 4.
I used to write Java COM components with IIS. While the Java libraries (com.ms.blah), were pretty thin wrappers around IIS stuff, I tend to agree that Java/IIS was a pretty good match. It was amazing how little effort they put into the Java versions of their APIs... I remember having to pass in arrays with length 1 to calls in order to get return values. And I remember how it was technologically impossible to retrieve an array of HTTP request parameters (that had the same name) from Java... all you could do was get them back comma delimited (and thus mangled).
Then I remember when we discovered a never-publicized bug in MS' jdbcodbc.dll. The JDBC-ODBC bridge used to blow up if you sent more than 32k to it trying to set a text (CLOB) column. It would bring down the JDBC-ODBC stuff, the JVM, and thus IIS (JVM was running in process). We reported it, had to fight getting charged for tech support, and it was finally fixed six months after they'd escalated it to that mythical maximum level of importance. Were it not for being able to manually copy old versions of jdbcodbc.dll from old Win95 boxes, our client's app would have been DOA. Cost us two weeks tracking the sucker down
too. Maybe we should have written a security exploit around it and made it into a security bug. Perhaps that would have caught their attention.... but oh, wait, it was 1998 and MS didn't give half a rats rear end about security anyway.
Eventually, we figured out that it was probably a good idea to ditch all dependence on MS and go straight J2EE.
---
Too bad there's no 1.2 jre for mac's though...
Doug
Venn ist das nurnstuck git und Slotermeyer? Ya! Beigerhund das oder die Flipperwaldt gersput!
Comment removed based on user account deletion
There is in the Mac OS X public beta (1.3 will ship with the final release). It works quite well, and Swing looks much less crappy than usual because it uses native Aqua widgets.
How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
The real thing is that Sun needs to stop playing around with the AWT and actually start optimizing it for various platforms - the AWT is rather slow. And Swing doesn't help it in the least...
You are in a maze of twisty little relative jumps, all alike.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
From the point of view of my last company, it rhymes with ExoSucks Communications, this means very little, which is probably will be good for Sun. For a pipe company like ExoSucks, a company which benefits from being platform independent (sure, we'll run a Mac OS X Server , , , admin . . . anyone? . . . Bueller?) being able to put as many popular logos at the bottom of their press releases is all that matters. Cisco Powered! bling! Powered by Java! bling! These things have meaning to the people who write or and work on the systems that run in the datacenter. And those people ultimately (usually) bless the purchase rec. for the sales moron who makes the buy. By disenfranchising those individuals, M$FT makes a big mistake. No more logo on the releases. No more free adverts. No more deep core support.
1. Run on less than 3% of all desktop machines 2. Run on less than 5% of all desktop machines
Like Tetris? Like drugs? Ever try combining them?
Will I retire or break 10K?
The last step that is required now is a good way to run multiple Java apps on the main platforms (Windows, Mac OSX and Linux). One of the reasons why desktop apps haven't really taken off is that each app launched takes quite a bit of memory with the VM - if you can move some of that overhead into a centralized place then it would be a lot easier to run Java desktop apps.
Desktop Java apps can be pretty good - with a lot of optmizing, I worked with a team to get a pretty decently sized Swing based app with a lot of DB access and forms and MDI working resonably well on a P166 running W95 with 32MB of RAM, using the 1.2VM - and it was over two years ago that I completed that project. Even at the time it ran just like any other app on a P450 and given that the newer VM's are getting better and better you could probably do some pretty powerful desktop apps today. I still haven't seen many good examples, TogetherJ is impressive but still a bit slow.
I really agree with you that OSX will help Java on the desktop, and Java is already moving up from the other end as well with Palm VM's and iMode applets.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
They're going to try to ramp up C# to use the VB VM. They realize that C# doesn't quite cut it as a language (like they care about semantic and syntactic purity,) and that VB's VM is pokin' slow and its been cracked to bits.
.NET runtime's VM (Common Language Runtime). VB.NET is a completely rewritten VB and it targets the CLR just like C# will. VB.NET is nothing like the old VB (except for syntax).
Ahem. C# uses the
Also, VB has been natively compiled since version 6, so it has had no need for a VM for quite a while.
VB's VM is pokin' slow
Compared to what? Java? LOL
I bet sun doesnt even relise what they just did, more likly then not MS is going to drop java in the next release and replace it with something of there own, as it stand right now , what 90% of people on the web use the newest version of IE that has has java, now if IE no longer includes java , that will put the number of java users down to what Im guessing 15%(I'll assume some people will d/l suns java) .Web sites are no longer going to write for it as pritty much anything less then 25% of the market isnt worth the effort. and more likly then not switch to whatever IE has even if its activeX. forceing other OSs even farther away from a "modern" browser. (bad news for alt-OSs good for MS).
I never Liked java, I though it was slow buggy and used too much ram , it doesnt run anybetter on my new k7-900 as it did on my 486-with p83 overdrive. I for one will not download java, esp if sites stop developing for it. and Im sure Im not alone. However, this can be very bad news for alt-OSs if everyone starts writing for activeX, the lack of a browser with active X support will drive new usesers away from the OS. But its also possible that AOL will use NS6 that alone will couse a great shift in the "browser wars"
Let the games begin!
Until now, with all the Microsoft bashing that Microsoft products are inferior (which I take as cheap talk, and you are free to talk cheap), I have always been intrigued by the fact that Microsft JVM for a loooonnngggg time has had the *fastest* JVM and Java compiler on the market. What a slap to Sun and all it's loyal followers. They had to come up with HotSpot to bridge the gap. And I bet you MSJVM still kick their ass. But who cares. As long as I can write code, I am happy.
Java applets will be replaced by ActiveX controls. C# will push Java in a few years. And Windows will always be the OS of the masses. Linux and flavors of unix will always be a niche market. Even unix vendors can't standardize amongst themselves.
Microsoft Transaction Server, together with COM+ and C#, will make the oh-so-powerful-and-damn-slow EJB technology looks like a joke. CORBA is going nowhere. How is Orbix today? What happened to all those CORBA vendors, that suddenly happened to have disappeared? OMG is good for the academics. Companies out there want real solution to their problem. Cost effective solution. And Microsft over and over have consistently delivered to their customers.
And please don't tell me that Unix is so much better than Windows. Unix has had 25 years to mature. Give Windows another 5 years and then we talk.
Bottom line. It's a good thing that Java is no longer on Microsoft task list. That means more time to make C# a kick ass language, which by the way, has been submitted to the ECMSA standard body, something that Sun (yeah, this one is for all the open source nuckle head) has been reluctant to do. Why?
PS-Apple can't even write a decent office package for their own platform. They need Microsoft to do it for them. Thinking about what Microsoft contributed to the public in popularizing the PC and office productivity (taken that the GUI+pointing device idea was from Xerox, adopted by everybody), they must be really bad at designing software.
And now that Netscape development team is moving under the umbrella of AOL Technology, how many people would argue that AOL is better than Microsoft?
--
You can still write COM components in Java. I did. It's just a little bit harder.
A year and a half ago I was in charge of modifying one of the last Microsoft-specific parts of code in my company's product. Our goal was to become 100% pure so as to be able to port to Solaris. Doing so involved getting rid of some J++ code which made it really easy to interact with COM. Instead, I used JNI and wrote some wrapper classes in C++ that interacted with the COM components we needed from the Microsoft platform. On Solaris we just plugged in some Java code that did the same thing.
In addition, I believe IBM's alphaWorks has a project bridging COM and Java Beans, and doesn't Sun also have a COM-to-Java bridge?
I don't believe that languages are becoming irrelevant. The best way to write a fast app is in C, but our machines are becoming faster, so the slow enviroments are not so painfull to wait for. All the intrepreters for them are written (largely) in C, not C++, not Java, C. As the intrepreters get faster, we see a difference, but they still cannot be as fast as real machine code.
Spring is here. Don't believe me, look outside!
That turns out not to be the case On a G3 and a G4, MS IE knocks the socks off Netscape in speed. And it can't be because of some hidden API that Apple only shares with Microsoft. I think Microsoft just wrote better code than Netscape/AOL.
(I can't believe that I'm saying that about Microsoft, but in this case, it's true.)
AWT isn't really slow. Swing is somewhat slow, but plain AWT is actually quite quick. The problem is that most people who code directly to AWT don't know what they're doing, and they overide paint() but not update(). Check out the applets at Java on the Brain to see some good AWT-intensive Java applets.
What I'll miss most about java would be the removal of hackish sleep() statements I put in my code in order to stop it from running too fast when it was C code.
Starting with JDK1.4 the releases will be synchronized. On a side note, there are blazing fast JVMs (no pun intended) for wintendo, check out IBM's VM on http://www.volano.com/report.html.
Unable to read configuration file '/bigassraid/htdig//conf/14229.conf'
Geocrawler error message.
There's nothing wrong with writing an OS in C++ as long as you use good programmers. Although, that is easier said than done. As long as they understand the implications of what they write in terms of the assembly generated by the compiler, it's a fine language for writing an OS.
The problem with languages is that the easier it is to write, the less people think. The theory is that with higher level languages people can devote their minds to worry about their high level algorithms instead of continually worrying about low level implementation details. The reality is that they just use their brains less, and don't properly think about either the low level or the high level. The *worst* possible software is generated when people go even higher level and start generating programs using Rational Rose together with the Design Patterns book.
This is part of the reason why Java applications are generally shit. It's only the fault of the language to the extent that people are encouraged to think less. This doesn't "let you concentrate on what's important", it just allows mental laziness, and very few people have the discipline to devote the freed mental CPU cycles to their design. Instead it just lets them churn out more shit code, which fools them into thinking they are being more "productive". Likewise, lots of C++ programs are worse than the equivalent C.
The redeeming feature of C++, and the reason why there are several decent applications and a couple of decent OSs written in C++ is that it shoots you in the foot often enough to prevent you from forgetting about the low level details for very long. Even though in theory the language allows you to ignore implementation details, there are so many gotchas that you have to understand all the gory details in order to write tolerable code. Like, you can use multiple inheritance, but just try doing that without understanding what virtual inheritance means and you'll soon be in a world of pain. The many dangerous and complicated language features in C++ keep people on their mental toes.
You might think I'm kidding, but I'm not.
http://rareformnewmedia.com/
Take a look at J-Integra which can map COM/DCOM objects to Java. Very good too.
I agree completelly. That's why I write all my CGI programs in assembler these days. After all, C has some redeeming features, like manual memory management, that certainly will keep you bug shooting for months, which is a good thing because it keeps you on your mental toes, but anyone who understands what a generic computing device is understands that to write even a half decent program you need obviously be intimately familiar with every machine instruction and its implications with regards to processor microcode, IO operations etc. I recently got sacked from my company because my boss can't understand the principles of quality software enginering and demanded that I produce an HTML form handler in a few days. Idiot...
In closing, I'd just like to remind you that, generally, C applications are also shit, and when they are shit, they misbehave in a lot nastier ways than "poorly designed" programs in high level languages (with garbage collect and memory management).
This may appear to be a big blow for Microsoft, and a win for Sun. However, as developers there should be more of an emphasis placed on teaching programmers how to choose the right tool for the job. Since MS Java was not compatible with Sun Java, then it didn't necessarily deserve to thrive.
Forget about the personal fued between MS and Sun, as developers we're not capitalizing off of their egos. Our job is to create rock-solid deployments for our customers.
At the same time, developers for the Windows platform should be familiar with most of the development tools for Windows and know how to choose the right tool for the job. Developers for the *nix variants should be able to do the same.
Visual Basic, Visual C++, Delphi, and Java are all mainstream languages that can be used for application development or "enterprise" development on Windows. C, C++, Cobol, and Java can be used on *nix variants.
All of this "enterprise" talk is only relevant if the developer knows how to be flexible. A good programmer could create a rock-solid enterprise deployment using Visual Basic "webclasses" and create a DHTML application on the server side if he takes the time to design it in a logical and clear fashion. It is a useful tool if used properly, with less time and overhead.
As a matter of fact, I was speaking with this guy the other day, and he didn't even know how to take advantage of using modules and classes in VB App development. It is a powerful feature of the language, and it keeps the programmer in tune when they do development in another language like C++ or Java.
Nevertheless, he was not taught the real value of learning how to write successful modules and classes. He was not taught how to design object-oriented apps, that can have linear algorithms within an event driven model. So his whole source code was just "event-driven" vb code with no coherent structure.
The problem today is everybody is bias, including Universities. These technical training courses are teaching their students how to create programs, but they are not teaching them the science and art of programming. Once you know how to program, it doesn't matter what language you use. The true potential of these tools are not being harnessed because of fanaticism. I'm a programmer, not some cult follower. I wish more of these young programmers would learn that, and stop following zealots.
SubtleSeer
That's actually a pretty big problem. one of the whole points of Swing is that it doesn't use native widgets at all, so the developer has a better idea of the Look and Feel of the application.
If a developer wants to use native widgets, they should use AWT, surely?
-Ciaran
I might be misunderstanding, but is this going to mean no Servlet support for IIS? It's one of the areas that I wanted to start learning very soon but as so many people use inferior webservers :) it'd be pretty pointless. *sigh* Shame if it means that IIS won't support it
In case you didn't know, Microsoft signed a contract with Transvirtual to support development of a GPL PersonalJava 1.1 compliant java envirnoment Kaffe . You can find the news here
However, don't dream that Microsoft dedicates to the growth of Java and GPL. Some conspiracists suspected that the whole things is to hurt Java development. The fact that Kaffe has not implemented java.security will help supporting the false claim "Java is not secure"
"Microsoft is throwing money at a small company trying to make some noise at JavaOne, the way they do every year,"Jim Mitchell, vice president of architecture and technology at Sun's JavaSoft division, said.
True. But I think you haven't answered the original poster's point, which was that there are, unfortunately, many people who don't see a technology as somehow safe or OK unless it has Microsoft's name on it.
M
GROGGS: alive and well and living in
``Microsoft is very pleased with the successful conclusion of this litigation,'' said Tom Burt, deputy general counsel for litigation at Microsoft.
"It's pretty simple: This is a victory for our licensees and consumers," said Sun's Chairman and CEO Scott McNealy.
Everyone wins - there are no losers. Why can't everything end so happily?
Well, there is a real good reason why Sun wants the Java VM to work on the WIN32 API first: that is -85 percent- of the market for desktop computers and small servers.
Sun may dislike Microsoft but frankly, Sun knows that for Java to be significant they -have- to be able to run on the most popular OS platform by a long, long way.
Don't be surprised that this settlement may result in a deal for a Sun-certified Java VM to be part of Internet Explorer 6.0, or at least provide direct hooks to work under IE 6.0.
Raymond in Mountain View, CA
Look, there are a LOT of engineers that have already invested in learning Java. It makes sense and it doesn't tie you into a single platform.
I do believe that C# will adapt, but how can it compete with a 'relatively' open and cross-platform language?
I don't think at this point, even if Microsoft has an amazing set of development tools that are superior to Jbuilder, Visual Age, etc etc, could catch up overnight with Java.
Java is really one of the few great enterprise server solutions (for the internet) that is both robust and scalable. (I don't consider a 4-cpu Dell running windows 2000 scalable).
--------------------
Would you like a Python based alternative to PHP/ASP/JSP?
You can force it to use Motif & Metal 'themes'
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Would you like a Python based alternative to PHP/ASP/JSP?
Sun may actually be able to make some money by selling some copies of their JVM in stores, to people who don't want to have to download (much as MS sells update disks for Windows). {Complete your Windows 2002 installation with Sun JVM... :-) }
And of course, then these users will see what the rest of us have seen all along: how badly Microsoft messed up Java. How many of the java applets on the web won't run on standard-conforming JVMs because they were made with MS's non-standard-conforming Java compilers.
The only reason they didn't settle with the DOJ is well...there was no way. Back when Caldera was about to win the ruling in court against Microslush...Bill got out the checkbook and Caldera settled out of court. The check for them seems to be a worthwhile tradeoff to being proved wrong in court.
I know there are other times when M$ paid off the plaintiff...err...I mean settled, instead of letting the suit play out. I think that's where M$'s lawyers are best...realizing when they are going to lose, and getting Bill to pony up the cash.
Comments? Flames? Rebuttals? Corrections?
Cheers
Galego
Que Deus te de em dobro o que me desejas
[May God give you double that which you wish for me]
I know, it sounds stupid, doesn't it.
Actually, I wish I had done more assembly, although compilers are pretty good these days. I was learning things like Lisp, prolog, pop11 and ML when in retrospect, I would have been better off learning more assembly, and understanding microcode would be even better. However, C is sufficiently low level for most tasks thanks.
There are plenty of shit C/C++ applications, this is true. Writing such applications isn't easy, and not everybody is smart/experienced enough to do it right. Yes, when they misbehave they do so nastily. So nastily in fact, that the problem tends to get noticed and fixed. Tell me something though, where are the good applications written in high level languages. Of the actual applications you use every day, how many are written in high level languages ?
True enough, it does take longer to write an HTML form handler in a low level language. The discipline involved wouldn't pay off until you start writing much larger and more complicated applications. That's the paradox, high level languages are supposed to help out with very big complicated programs, but the more impressive the task performed by a working program is, the less likely that it was written in a high level language. To me, impressive programs are things like: compilers, CAD/CAM applications, operating systems, space shuttle control systems, voice recognition, etc etc. The bigger the project, the more important it is to have control down to the lowest level.
http://rareformnewmedia.com/
Someone will make a Java implementation for .NET. The .NET spec is as open as open gets, and someone will create a compiler that will work with the CLR.
MS is out of the business of promoting Sun technology and has moved on to bigger and better things.
The Java threat to MS was the idea that somehow Java could become the OS. As we all know, this was more hype than reality. Java apps are slower than dog pooh and never really constituted a desktop threat. MS was being paranoid of their monopoly.
I'm still working on a clever footer.
It doesn't get any more propietary. It is owned and controlled by a single company. The JVM is a closed source proprietary engine. Even the test suites are not public (so SUN can twist the results in order to twist arms.)
Microsoft doesn't want Java! There will be no more Java! Pascal was taught in ALL the colleges in it time but you kids wouldn't remember that. Java is now history. It will never run well again on MS products. Microsoft will not be working with SUN on any platform. Bet on it. And Sun is the loser because Windows no longer supports Java...
With new C-Sharp/.NET bytecodes, which, btw, are all as open as commercial company can do it, and all documented - Microsoft wants Java dead as soon as possible. They really don't need Java for anything now - they can claim platform-independence, class reuse from various languages, ease of OO programming, existing infrastructure for support of distributed applications etc., etc. - all of Java strong points. So surely they don't want Java anymore - they just developed their own Java.
-- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.
As soon as anybody writes C# bytecode interpreter for Linux and good system classes library for Linux, it would work. At least when programmed right. .NET is not even released.
Don't foget how much time it took to Sun to recognize there's Linux and there should be Java for Linux. Years. And
-- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.
Many people have made the point that JAVA will run almost anywhere and that C-Dull will require Windows. The counter argument is that Windows is a monopoly and has 90% of the worlds computers.
My point is this. They have way less than 50% of the server side busienss, and it appears that they will never dominate that business. Do you want to lock yourself in to Windows on the server side when you don't have to?
Lastly you want an application that I can write in JAVA that I cannot in "Inactive C", err C-dull... I will write an application that gets information out of a SQL database and returns it to me in an object. I will do this WITHOUT any sql code. If the database changes (i.e. adds tables ect) I will NOT have to change my code. My code will handle transaction management, messaging and state without me having to type ONE line of code... I do this in JAVA today. You cannot do this in C# today. I didn't even mention database pooling.
Have you checked where ORACLE, IBM AOL/TW, SUN, BEA, APPLE ect are putting there development dollars. It is NOT C# it is JAVA, XML and to some extent LINUX. The evil empire is falling...
I never thought I would say this, but thank you Reno.
Steve Michael
smichael@netcapade.net
I never used it and I never will. Sun is run by idiots. Java coders only write script! They don't write 'programs'. People who say otherwise are very lame.
As soon as anybody writes C# bytecode interpreter for Linux and good system classes library for Linux, it would work. At least when programmed right.
.NET that I've heard of.
.NET to what they consider 'valid' platforms, which in their eyes does not include Linux. And I'm happy about this... I don't like the .NET, and I don't want to see it on my future Linux box...
What makes you think that anyone would? M$ has been trying to marginalize Linux since day one. Why would they provide the necessary port? And, IIRC, Corel got rid of it's Linux stuff, thus dumping the only support for
M$ is only going to provide
I like you, Stuart. You're not like everyone else, here, at Slashdot.
there are 2 kinds of people. those who divide people into 2 kinds, and those who don't.
C# is my favorite dialect of object-oriented C.
It fixes a few flaws in Java, while emulating
most of it.
The chief drawback is that MicroSoft is doing
almost nothing to promote it on non-MS platforms.
Microsoft thought that they were big enough that they could just crush Sun. I think with Sun doing all of the Windows Java implementations, Sun is working on getting the power to crush Microsoft. I hate hearing people talk about "If Java takes off" or "If Java is a success". The Java programming language is taught in almost every university, and some high schools. Java is the fastest growing programming language, and C# (a rip-off of Java) won't stop that momentum.
I want my rights back. I was actually using them when our government stole them after 9/11.
Sun's rather dictatorial manner hasn't helped Java, either. Scott McNealy is a Gates-wannabe, trying the lead a rebellion to change dictators.
Java is, however, far from dead. On the client side, servlets and JSP provide power and structure. I don't hesitate to use Java on the server.
On the client side, Sun killed Java through rapid change and bloat. Building a solid VM takes considerable effort and stability; Sun, alas, sis not seem interested in stability. Swing is overkill for most applications; AWT works quite well, expecially when Java is used for small, focused applications.
For some of my projects (portable, graphic demonstrations of scientific principles), Java works well. I can ship an Java application to a computer scientist anywhere in the world, and he can run it without need to recompile or argue over window managers and desktop environments. But for normal, everyday applications, Java is dead, as Corel and other companies have discovered.
Long live Java on the server; long live Java in the niches it best fills. Goodbye, Java as the "everything to everyone" language.
--
Scott Robert Ladd
Master of Complexity
Destroyer of Order and Chaos
All about me
To understand what's right and wrong, the lawyers work in shifts ...
> They can't use Sun's IP. That means that they can't produce a Java anything.
This disturbs me immensely that a language is being claimed as someone else's property. Even if you write a compiler from scratch, most java tools will not work without the sun.* packages. Didn't this whole flap start from MS tainting the precious sanctity of the core java packages?
If Java were part of a standards body, MS Java would simply not have met certification. Instead, Sun sued. If I distributed a modified and possibly broken C++, there is no C++ Inc that can sue me over it.
MS was an easy target for you to hate. If Sun turned its guns on me, I'd be out on the street.
--
I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
In the old days, the JDKs were released way out of sync. Today, JDK 1.3 is available for Windows, Solaris, and Linux. You can't keep looking to 1998.
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Ummm.... I'm confused about this. My belief was that JavaScript was just an unfortunately-named technology that has little to do with Java. While we're on the topic, what would REALLY be useful is if JavaScript was implemented in a standard way on all broswers. Wouldn't it be nice if it could, for example, exhibit consistent behaviours across browsers when interacting with Java Applets? Of course, the one may as well wish for a consistent DOM implementation, too....*sign* Regard.... CrazyLegs (don't ask....)
CrazyLegs
"Pork!!" said the Fish, and we all laughed.
In general, I think many "idealistic" software engineers miss out on this simple fact: A majority of software engineering tasks today are more akin to plumbing than science. You don't have the performance optimization demands that justifies using a lower level language and dwell on algorithms for ages. A language with auto-vivifying variables and dynamic list types may use 20% more memory space and 50% more clock cycles than needed, but it's usually not a problem. To a purist, yes, but that won't convince your company to assign more resources to the task. So you take some high level stuff and throw it together to shuffle some data from A to B, mangle it a bit, and you're done. It may not be pretty, but it's economy.
/Digital plumber
The Civil Engineering course (1.00) now uses Java in the fall term, but still uses C++ in Spring. The CS course on software eng (6.170) now uses Java, not CLU.
Courses like 6.001 and 6.044J continue to use Scheme and will probably always use it. After all, that language was designed for teaching CS principles.
I'm teaching a non-credit workshop at MIT this Friday on using Scheme for server-side web applications.
The thing that Java needs is widespread distribution ... and prior to some of the
antitrust rulings, that meant that Sun needed
to get Microsoft to distribute it.
On the other hand, it seems like it'd now be practical for Dell, Compaq, Gateway, etc to bundle Sun's JVM into their distros. And of course, for "large customers", which do custom installs of Win32 based operating systems, to do the same thing ... which they were
probably doing already.
My company uses JRun with IIS, one of many third-party servlet engines. This lets me develop BRL apps on my Linux box and deploy on IIS with no modification.
My only concern, albeit a small one, is that of Java applets in web pages. Maybe it's not the ideal environment, but currently it's the only reasonably cross-platform, cross-browser way to deliver client-side executable content that's too complex to do in JavaScript. What will happen when Internet Exploder no longer has Java support? Webmasters will have a choice: force IE users to download a Sun Java plug-in, or write the applet in C# and only support IE7 (or whatever) users. That sounds quite forboding if you're a fan of non-Microsoft desktops.
I truly hope that this scenario never comes to pass. It won't, if AOL gets on the ball and switches its AOLclient to use Mozilla as the browser. Let's hope this happens soon.
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You don't need Microsoft to do anything for you. All .NET interfaces are documented extensively. Including bytecode formats. Just go to MSDN, take the docs and start coding. You have better things to do? Then why Microsoft should make your world better for their own cost?
-- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.
And I dare you to find a web page that I need to visit that requires Java. I use Opera 5, the free edition, without java because I didn't see the point in downloading 7 MB of java interpreter for the .000213% of the banner ads I see that use some sort of java animation. Been using it for about a month now. Every once in a great while, I see a box that says "This applet requires a plug-in blah blah blah" and I just happily ignore it. MS is dropping Java because it will have zero impact on them, and no one in their right mind is using it for web development. I'm not saying that means anything to me -- I am, after all defecting from the IE camp because IE also is irritating and I am tired of screwing with it. When I next boot up Linux, I will probably download the free Opera for Linux and use that, just because I have no time for Netscape. But at any rate, who gives a shit what C# can do or what Java can do? I don't need either of them and won't bother visiting sites that do.
One day I feel I'm ahead of the wheel / the next it's rolling over me / I can get back on / I can get back on
You could write a class in JPython, inherit from that class in Java, and debug the two together via interactive Kawa Scheme. The JVM's language independence is there regardless of whether or not Sun emphasizes it.
Languages that support continuations (e.g. Scheme) will have the same difficulties on .NET's CLR as they do on the JVM. See the recent thread on comp.lang.scheme about .NET.
Sun has their own take on the settlement... http://www.sun.com/smi/Press/sunflash/2001-01/sunf lash.20010123.1.html
having not read any of this crap :) I'm guessing Microsoft wanted to take over java, kinda like they attempted with html (to just add in elements that would force people to use their kernel crashing browser that seems to take you 4 updates to just cover the security end of things) :P
If i'm wrong oh well. foo bar.
I like Java. It's clean and powerful. Sun has worked long and hard to make a good product. They should be rewarded for their efforts. Unfortunately, without MS's support they are embarking on a long and difficult road to acceptance. As much as I dislike it, MS provides instant access to the largest market. By putting a JVM (not the lousy 1.1.4 but a nice 1.3 version) in IE, you get instant acceptance. Point one, downloading a ~7MB plug-in just to get a JVM installed is enough to put off some users from using Java at all. Point two, it only seem logical that MS should make the WIN32 JVM -- for better or worst they know there OS/browser best. I noticed that the Sun plug-in doesn't do Unicode clipboard operations correct, etc. At least MS got that right in their JVM. Point three, RMI was a bad idea. JNI is much nicer. Point four, it seems that the immovable rock has met the irresistable force. It's just corporate stubbornness that prevents these two from working together. Like it or not they are a good match. Grow up you two and play nice! Point five, a thin Java client based OS is a good idea. Maybe Java and Linux can get together to defeat the evil looming .NET that will enslave yet another generation to the MS empire.
Point six, someone, some day will invent a byte-code CPU and it will be fast. (A JVM is versistile but cost you in the performance department.) What software will it run? If MS abstains from Java/byte-code they are going to miss out on possible future markets. Maybe this is a good thing. Or, are they going to create yet another (God help us) HAL for the their Windows NT platform and not take advantage of the inherent advantages of an all Java machine? (Gain of salt alert: I made the same prediction with p-code in the Apple II+ era and found myself eating my words since a p-code CPU never caught on.)
If you're going to play in the same sand-box (hehe) you've got to learn not to throw sand. A strategic alliance between Sun and MS would go along way to making my life as a programmer a lot easier.
hm - installation of VC++ 6.0 *requires* that the MS JVM be installed in IE. . .
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
I've done very minimal fiddling with java so bear with me on this.
What is it about Java that makes it frequently go zombie? (The zombies are generally dead forks of Netscape, which seriously hamper the live ones. This is on Winboxen; I don't see it much on other platforms, and I shun IE unless a page won't display in NS.)
Is it a fundamental problem in the Win/Netscape plugin interpreter or is it bad design on the part of the app coder?
--Blair
Microsoft bailed out of Java a while ago: Visual J++ has been sold, and the official .NET policy on Java seems to be: "We don't support that."
The only JVM that will be coming from Microsoft will be the one inside IE (or whatever they call it nowadays). And maybe they'll just ditch that in favor of Sun's Java plugin.
What does this really mean for Java? On one side, there's MS, one there's Oracle, Sun, HP and a host of other vendors. Who will "win" in the end? Impossible to say.
WWTTD?
Sure, but not yet on MacOS. And the last version that will be available for MacOS 9 or less is 1.1.8. Basically, Mac users have to wait until MacOS X ships in late March, and then only if they are willing and able to upgrade to the new OS. For example, people with pre-G3 PPC's are out of the loop unless they go to some flavour of linux. Many Mac users will never make that step.
First of all, there isn't ANY webpage you NEED to visit (Java or no). I am also using Opera5. I downloaded it without Java because it automatically used one of the 4-5 implementations I currently have installed (Netscapes, I think).
However, when talking about web development, you are right. You do not need Java as long as everything you see is static. However, I doubt if all the last 10 pages you went to were. Java is the ONLY cross-browser option for web development. Do the research. XML isn't yet. DHTML definitely isn't. Javascript isn't. I have about 10 browsers installed for compatability testing -- and MOST pages that do ANYTHING dynamically work on (at the most) 2 of the 3 most popular (Netscape, IE, and Opera).
Personally, I visit a LOT of sites with Opera that do not work correctly, and I have to load Netscape or something to use it (menus, search results, whatever). For example, pull up www.hotbot.com, do a search, then click on Revise Search. Don't know about you, but it doesn't work on my copy. It would (on all browsers) if it was Java.
And people complain that they don't want to use Java because it is too slow? I challenge you to find another way to incorporate interactive Lightware scenes in a web page for 2k....
http://www.google.com/profiles/malachid
Comment removed based on user account deletion
How, exactly, is that going to slow Microsoft down any?
Do they care about any of those platforms? Answer honestly, now.
Failure is not an option.
Failure is not an option.
It comes bundled with Windows.
The degree to which Java can integrate in platform-specific ways with Apple's "soon" to be released OS X is even more incestuous than it ever was with VJ++ (not that I care as long as the plat-neutral stuff's all there).
;^D
Check this pdf from Apple's Developer resources. Surprising what you can do without a monopoly.
Ruffin Bailey
"This may be the fault of the interpreter, in which case HE is the hippopotamus."
It's all 0s and 1s. Or it's not.
6.001 (Intro CS), 6.034 (AI) etc., still use Scheme (MIT Lisp's derivative).
I included MIT in the elite shcools.
The difference, 1.00 (taught to Civil Engineers and Business Majors) is Java based (although it might be C++ one term and Java the other, it's hard to keep track off).
6.170, the software engineering lab of Computer Science required for all CSE majors is in Java now, not CLU.
Everyone graduating from MIT with a CS degree knows Java.
Java is useful for teaching software engineering because you focus on design strategy instead of debugging pointers. For MIT, the real world benefit is uninteresting, we're expected to learn new languages quickly. For "lower tier" schools (not to be insulting, hence the quites), like local colleges and community colleges, Java will become increasingly used. This is important, because if you need a lot of programmers, the bulk will be people that learn pragmatic details.
My point is, Computer Scientists will learn whatever language. Computer Programmers will use the few they were taught, and Java is likely to be one of them.
Don't say I didn't warn you.
As far as "the best teaching language", I feel Python is a pretty good choice.
Python is an extremely well-laid language, one where whitespace is significant, one line of
source is one statement (no free form semicolon-terminated lines, with exception of triple quoted text), and indentation is significant.
Unlike direct C derivitaves (C++, Java), variables need not be declared, and because it's semi-interpreted, it is easy to pick up.
Unlike Perl, it's damned neat and no one's going to have an Obfuscated Python contest.
It's a language with extreme real world exposure. Episode I was engineered with quickly brewed Python.
Don't get me wrong. I like learning other languages. However, as a starter, Python kicks.
I used to be someone else. Now I'm someone better.
Real life is underrated.
Probably a lot of the Javasoft people would like nothing better than to concentrate on the Windows JDK, and perhaps bring the Linux JDK in-house. From their point of view it's silly to give equal effort to the Solaris JDK, which accounts for 10% of the downloads. But for better or worse, Sun's base business is hardware, and they can't afford the slightest hint that they're not fully supporting that hardware.
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I've come to see Microsoft as the modern equivalent of the Borgia family. Microsoft, like the Borgias, is greedy, power-hungry, ruthless, aggressive, unprincipled, and has made a lot of enemies. So in both cases people believe every rumor and nasty inference.
"Everybody knows" that Lucrezia Borgia slept with her father and poisoned her lovers on a weekly basis -- "facts" which have no historical basis. By the same token, everybody feels free to infer malicious motives to every strange action by Microsoft, even when they shoot themselves in the foot.
Java is a case in point. As every Word user or COM programmer knows, MS loves to totally redesign things, and to heck with backward compatibility or predictable product behavior. MS can't even maintain consistency with its own APIs. Is it very suprising they couldn't resist redesigning the language and "improving" the API? Especially when they had just hired Anders Hejlsberg, compiler wizard and architect of the much-beloved Delphi Visual Component Library.
A lot of MS's actions have more to do with technical bigotry, personal animosity, and plain old compulsive bit-twidling than with fiendish plans or self-interest. Which is not to say that MS lacks in these things. But the fiendish plans are often overrated, and the self-interest often takes a back seat to less mature motives.
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