Re:What can be done about terrorism?
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This isn't even worth replying to, but the public gets it's money from it's JOBS. John Q. Public doesn't print money in his basement, he earns it by working for a corporation.
I'm not being but so naive. The support the US has enjoyed from most countries has been more than "we are sorry that happened to you". Canada has been a great help in terms of providing our stranded citizens with food and shelter, our injured with blood. All the NATO nations are ready to stand as one for us.
True that Middle East leaders may be less than sincere, but I was honestly touched that Arafat gave blood to the cause. The bottom line though, is that we have had peace treaty meeting after peace treaty meeting and Israel seems much more willing to negotiate than the Palestinians. I suggest the third world countries look at their own governments before blaming ours for the problems. I'm not saying we are perfect, but we ARE trying to help both sides.
Re:What can be done about terrorism?
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Once again you have a good point. Socialistic countries have done fine, however that doesn't mean that Capitalist countries have done BAD does it?
In general people in capitalist democracies are fairly happy people. Granted there are occasionally corporate guided injustices such as the DMCA. The problem is most people would rather complain about the DMCA and the "evil" corporations than use their democratic right to do something about it.
Re:What can be done about terrorism?
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"- AC Power came from Telsa, Hungarian, admittedly living in the US. The native US solution was Edison's DC, a dead end."
A mans native country seems irrelevant. Why do you think Tesla, Einstein, and Sikorsky all came to the US in the first place?
"- Airplanes were being developed across the world. The Wright Bros were only one of several who couldhave made the first flight. Most of the significant early flights were French anyway (qv Bleriot)."
Actually your best bet to debunk me would have been Russia. In early days the French might have been influential, but even today The USA and Russia remain the dominant force in high-tech airplane design. Mig, Mil, Ilyusion (sp?), Antonov, and others are all great designers. France gets credit for the Concorde, but generally speaking are still way behind the US and Russia. Russia of course has since dropped communism, and ones things settle down I think they'll be happier.
But isn't France a capitalist country? I honestly don't know for sure, but I know old communist propaganda referred to France, England, and the US as "capitalist democracies"
"- Helicopters. Developed by Germany in the 1930's. Developed from Spanish work on autogyros."
But perfected in it's present form in the US by Igor Sikorsky
"- Radio. An expatriate Italian living in the Uk called Marconi had something to do with this I believe"
You believe wrong, actually. Marconi had his patent stripped for violating 14 Tesla patents. It irks me that he still gets credit for the invention.
"- Television. Ever heard of John Logie Baird?"
Same as France isn't England a capitalist country?
"- "a large bulk of Space Travel". Who orbited the first satellite? Who orbited the first animal? Who orbited the first human? Who sent the first probe to the moon? Who built and sustained for three times its design life the first practical space station? Hint: it wasn't a capitalist nation..."
I've already given huge credit to Russia with regard to airplanes. And you are correct it wasn't a capitalist country, but the rub is that it IS a capitalist country. They obviously see some benefits to the system.
"- "resultant satellite communications networks". The ones that work were heavily-regulated, quasi-government geosynchronous satellite networks. We have of course seen separate purely capitalist networks since: take a bow Globalstar and Iridium!!!! (Funny how they're not taking over from the nasty old government ones...)"
I'll admit again to not knowing a whole heck of alot, but aren't EchoStar, the MANY C-band GE Satellites, etc. Owned by those corporations?
"Basically all *major*, quantum advances come from publicly funded research, which is then *commercialized*. Capitalism is only involved in the second."
Ummmm, where do you suppose the public gets the money from?
Re:What can be done about terrorism?
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You make a good point. But compare capitalist countries with non-capitalist ones, which would you rather live in?
Granted Russia is having some problems, but the switch is very recent, and any such large change in the way a country operates is going to take a while to adjust to.
Re:What can be done about terrorism?
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I agree with you 100 percent, but these people are blaming a government for the deaths of thousands of people by a terrorist attack, and ignoring some crucial points.
First Israel might not be saintly, but the Palestenians damn sure aren't either. It is the Palestenians who are ungiving during peace talks (peace talks carried out by the US I might add. The terrorist apologists would have you believe we are doing nothing to work toward peace in the area).
There is a time and a place to express concerns over the government. At this point we are for all practical purposes at war with an invisible enemy. No is not the time to start wars amongst ourselves. Now is the time to band together and neutralize the threat. THEN we can see what changes might need to be enacted in foreign policy.
Once again this "The USA is hated by much of the world" attitude is pure propaganda. The evidence is out there. Our long time enemies, the Russians have sided with us, the European Union, the Canadians, the Egyptian leader called us a "Generous Friend" and the Palestinian leader himself has denounced the attacks and even given blood to the cause! A few citizens of a few third world countries might not like the United States because we are trying to put an end to decades of fightings, something Israel is willing to do, and the Palestinians aren't.
People would be well to remember what happened the last time we stayed out of world affairs. It was very similar to what happened on 09/11/01, Pearl Harbor. Sometimes ignoring conflicts around the world isn't always the answer, and fighting amongst ourselves over foreign policy while a terrorist organization responsible for the death of thousands is on the loose is never the answer.
It's easy to sit back and say that the US needs to just change foriegn policy and not worry about retaliation, but not bringing the terrorists to justice would be welcoming future attacks, and that isn't just America's "warlike" behavior talking, that's a worldwide consensous, NATO agrees with us enough to have initiated Article V.
Re:What can be done about terrorism?
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Oh you are absolutely correct, we should all be in horse drawn buggies and dying of Small Pox and Polio. MUCH sarcasm intended.
Re:What can be done about terrorism?
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Thank you for posting this, and for the moderators for modding it up. As an American I am disgusted by how quickly even our own people forget the American money and lives lost to help people in need. Even at a time when almost every major country is calling us a generous friend (most recently Egypt, I just heard), our own people are blaming capitalism for the tragic actions of lunatic madmen.
It is at times like these that I wish America was as devoid of freedom as those people would have you believe, so we could exile their ungrateful asses out of here.
Re:What can be done about terrorism?
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"I believe that this is wrong. I believe that capitalism is a gross, horrific abomination that produces this sort of terror. If you believe otherwise then I hold you accountable."
You'd be well to remember that it was a capitalist country that gave us AC Power, Airplanes, Helicopters, Nuclear Power, Computers, Radio, Television, a large bulk of Space Travel and the resultant satellite communications networks and pretty much every other modern convienance. Let's see how well you and your family would be doing without the major medical advances made by the "evil capitalists"
If the world hates us so much why have the Canadians, Russians, British, and even the Palestinian leaders all expressed their sorrow and sent their sympathies? Why has NATO offered full use of it's military resources.
Everyone keeps talking about how we should look at how hated the US is, why because some third world countries aren't to keen on our actions? I for one am taking a different approach, I am very proud to see the worlds powers standing by us in support in this hard time.
It's ashame that some Americans such as yourself care less about the country than Russians.
"Nor are other demented individuals capable of mass killing likely to be deterred by the prospect of "their own people" getting killed in retaliation, wether they are suicidal or not."
Terrorists have a very focused mindset. It has been clearly stated by interviews with the Palestinian people that they believe this is going to make us pull out of Israel. The terrorists beyond a shadow of a doubt feel the same way. In their delusional heads they are powerful enough to make the US surrender. If the goal which they are so strongly fighting for and so adamantly adhering to pull us out of Israel, then trust me, pushing us further in is the last thing they want.
"ut we should take great care not to kill more innocent people and escalate the hatered and violence between the U.S. and much of the rest of the world."
Are you hearing the same news reports as I? The Prime Minister of Canada is certainly on our side, the Russians have sad "This is an inhuman act which must not go unpunished", the EU has echoed that sentiment, Yasar Arafat (sp?) himself is on our side and he is the president of the peoples who are supposed to hate us so much!, and NATO has offered the full use of it's military powers. Retaliation isn't something that would make the world mad at us. Retaliation is something that the civilized world stands ready to help us achieve, your definition of "much of the rest" in that sentence is very distorted.
Exactly, one only has to read the interviews with the Palestinians to illustrate your point. Lots of them said things such as "This is exactly what was needed to get the US to pull out of Israel." That is a fairly good example that these people who condone terrorist attacks do in fact believe that the US, and indeed the rest of the world, will just roll over for them.
A few of these terrorists might have been suicide bombers, but not ALL terrorists are suicide bombers. Furhtermore if there goal is to pull us out of Israel and away from the Palestines, and the result of the attack is a counterattack on the Palestines (Arafat denounced the attacks, so this is all just speculation of course), then the attack accomplished the exact opposite of its goal.
If we do nothing then we are setting ourselves up for an "It can't hurt to try" attitude from every two-bit wannabe terrorist out there. Most of whom, although willing to die, are not outright suicidal.
Well, from all accounts I've heard the president of the Palestines has denounced the attacks, so I don't know exactly how much the government over there agrees with the "death the the US" sentiments of it's citizens.
The citizens I saw though were armed militant looking types. Perhaps their attitude towards us is one reason our peacemaking attempts continually fail over there.
Oh, OK. But I think you are misunderstanding MY intent as well. I didn't mean that the US should go randomly and intentionally bombing Palestinian citizens. What I meant was that if those people who cheered our deaths were to become civilian casualties as a result of our retaliation to their leaders act of war (if it was their leaders responsible) then I would feel no remorse over their loss.
There is a big difference IMNSHO between feeling no remorse for civilian casualties during wartime, and cheering civilian casualties during an act of terrorism, and if the USA (or anyone) had killed palestinians civilians without warning during peacetime for no appparent reason, I doubt very many of us would be in the streets celebrating.
Umm, maybe I missed something, but Average Joe Mideaster CONFESSED to the Oklahoma City bombing.
Did the thousands of people in the WTC confess to something that I don't know about? If so, what was it?
Your analogy is way passed silly. You are talking about cheering the death of the man confessed to be responsible for the death of hundreds, and the cheering of the death of thousands who did not confess to a crime that has not been committed.
You are correct. I apologize, the term has been thrown about many times today and I suppose it was lodged in my head. Although I'm not sure I agree with you completely. Genocide isn't the "wiping out" of a race, but rather the mass murder of a race. The most famous genocide being the Holocaust at the hands of the Nazis. That was certainly genocide but the Jewish people were obviously not "wiped out".
That being said, I think in a way genocide still applies. They might not have all been the white race, or the black race, or the asian race, but they all were the AMERICAN race and though we might not scientifically be one race, I think this incident has proved that all but the most bigoted of us pull together as if we were blood brothers when our lifes, and way of life, is threatened.
Ok, heres the deal. First of all even the Palestinan president has denounced these attacks. It's fairly obvious that our attempts at sanctioning peace talks between the palestinians and the israelis did NOT justify the genocide of what will possibly be 10's of thousands of people. if they had then the president of the people we were supposed to have wronged so greatly wouldn't be on OUR side.
Secondly we are talking about the lifes of innocent people. Had we just went over and killed thousands of civilians in one fell swoop, I doubt any "rednecks" would be out cheering. That is a sick and immoral act.
But most importantly everyone keeps saying that we need to be peaceful. I can't believe anyone could be that stupid. If we don't fight back, they don't fight back, right? Fine, what about in 5 years when another terrorist groups is thinking of such an act? Would you rather them look back on this attempt and realize that they would get away with it, or realize that the full wrath of the US and her allies (which as it is shaping up now is at least Russia, and Britian, probably many more) will rain down upon them if they carry it out? What about 5 years after that, and 5 after that?
Letting terrorists get away with Genocide will only show the worlds madmen that they too can get away with such an act.
If more blood has to be shed now, to prevent what could be innumerable mass murder attacks in the future, then I for one say so be it. And I for one would be willing to fight and die to see that this never happens again.
It depends on who is guilty and how you define 'innocent'. The video of those people celebrating in Middle Eastern countries sickens me. I would feel no remorse for them if they or their leader is responsible and they were made to suffer the same fate as those whose deaths they cheered, or feel the same pains as those who lost loved ones today.
Calm down dude, first of all, suggesting that someone may buy a private jet is hardly a potshot. Would you be offended if I said that you might be interested in a private jet?
Secondly, I think the main reference was just made because Bill is one of the few people who could afford an $80,000,000 jet. In fact anytime ANYBODY wants to make a reference to being wealthy they use Bill Gates. "$100 a head?! What am I.. Bill Gates!", etc. etc. etc.
Maybe the problem is you see everything as an insult towards Microsoft when it really isn't.
I hate to play devils advocate, but the moral of the story isn't "Don't host in the US." it's "Don't host in the US if you plan on breaking US law."
Whether or not we agree with the laws, there is a big difference between the two morals.
Dude, I think it's slashdot jeopardy. We are supposed to give our answers in the form of a question.
What groundbreaking achievement will IBM announce soon?:)
Slashdot Mirror
This isn't even worth replying to, but the public gets it's money from it's JOBS. John Q. Public doesn't print money in his basement, he earns it by working for a corporation.
I'm not being but so naive. The support the US has enjoyed from most countries has been more than "we are sorry that happened to you". Canada has been a great help in terms of providing our stranded citizens with food and shelter, our injured with blood. All the NATO nations are ready to stand as one for us.
True that Middle East leaders may be less than sincere, but I was honestly touched that Arafat gave blood to the cause. The bottom line though, is that we have had peace treaty meeting after peace treaty meeting and Israel seems much more willing to negotiate than the Palestinians. I suggest the third world countries look at their own governments before blaming ours for the problems. I'm not saying we are perfect, but we ARE trying to help both sides.
Once again you have a good point. Socialistic countries have done fine, however that doesn't mean that Capitalist countries have done BAD does it?
In general people in capitalist democracies are fairly happy people. Granted there are occasionally corporate guided injustices such as the DMCA. The problem is most people would rather complain about the DMCA and the "evil" corporations than use their democratic right to do something about it.
A mans native country seems irrelevant. Why do you think Tesla, Einstein, and Sikorsky all came to the US in the first place?
"- Airplanes were being developed across the world. The Wright Bros were only one of several who couldhave made the first flight. Most of the significant early flights were French anyway (qv Bleriot)."
Actually your best bet to debunk me would have been Russia. In early days the French might have been influential, but even today The USA and Russia remain the dominant force in high-tech airplane design. Mig, Mil, Ilyusion (sp?), Antonov, and others are all great designers. France gets credit for the Concorde, but generally speaking are still way behind the US and Russia. Russia of course has since dropped communism, and ones things settle down I think they'll be happier.
But isn't France a capitalist country? I honestly don't know for sure, but I know old communist propaganda referred to France, England, and the US as "capitalist democracies"
"- Helicopters. Developed by Germany in the 1930's. Developed from Spanish work on autogyros."
But perfected in it's present form in the US by Igor Sikorsky
"- Radio. An expatriate Italian living in the Uk called Marconi had something to do with this I believe"
You believe wrong, actually. Marconi had his patent stripped for violating 14 Tesla patents. It irks me that he still gets credit for the invention.
"- Television. Ever heard of John Logie Baird?"
Same as France isn't England a capitalist country?
"- "a large bulk of Space Travel". Who orbited the first satellite? Who orbited the first animal? Who orbited the first human? Who sent the first probe to the moon? Who built and sustained for three times its design life the first practical space station? Hint: it wasn't a capitalist nation..."
I've already given huge credit to Russia with regard to airplanes. And you are correct it wasn't a capitalist country, but the rub is that it IS a capitalist country. They obviously see some benefits to the system.
"- "resultant satellite communications networks". The ones that work were heavily-regulated, quasi-government geosynchronous satellite networks. We have of course seen separate purely capitalist networks since: take a bow Globalstar and Iridium!!!! (Funny how they're not taking over from the nasty old government ones...)"
I'll admit again to not knowing a whole heck of alot, but aren't EchoStar, the MANY C-band GE Satellites, etc. Owned by those corporations?
"Basically all *major*, quantum advances come from publicly funded research, which is then *commercialized*. Capitalism is only involved in the second."
Ummmm, where do you suppose the public gets the money from?
You make a good point. But compare capitalist countries with non-capitalist ones, which would you rather live in?
Granted Russia is having some problems, but the switch is very recent, and any such large change in the way a country operates is going to take a while to adjust to.
I agree with you 100 percent, but these people are blaming a government for the deaths of thousands of people by a terrorist attack, and ignoring some crucial points.
First Israel might not be saintly, but the Palestenians damn sure aren't either. It is the Palestenians who are ungiving during peace talks (peace talks carried out by the US I might add. The terrorist apologists would have you believe we are doing nothing to work toward peace in the area).
There is a time and a place to express concerns over the government. At this point we are for all practical purposes at war with an invisible enemy. No is not the time to start wars amongst ourselves. Now is the time to band together and neutralize the threat. THEN we can see what changes might need to be enacted in foreign policy.
Once again this "The USA is hated by much of the world" attitude is pure propaganda. The evidence is out there. Our long time enemies, the Russians have sided with us, the European Union, the Canadians, the Egyptian leader called us a "Generous Friend" and the Palestinian leader himself has denounced the attacks and even given blood to the cause! A few citizens of a few third world countries might not like the United States because we are trying to put an end to decades of fightings, something Israel is willing to do, and the Palestinians aren't.
People would be well to remember what happened the last time we stayed out of world affairs. It was very similar to what happened on 09/11/01, Pearl Harbor. Sometimes ignoring conflicts around the world isn't always the answer, and fighting amongst ourselves over foreign policy while a terrorist organization responsible for the death of thousands is on the loose is never the answer.
It's easy to sit back and say that the US needs to just change foriegn policy and not worry about retaliation, but not bringing the terrorists to justice would be welcoming future attacks, and that isn't just America's "warlike" behavior talking, that's a worldwide consensous, NATO agrees with us enough to have initiated Article V.
Oh you are absolutely correct, we should all be in horse drawn buggies and dying of Small Pox and Polio. MUCH sarcasm intended.
Thank you for posting this, and for the moderators for modding it up. As an American I am disgusted by how quickly even our own people forget the American money and lives lost to help people in need. Even at a time when almost every major country is calling us a generous friend (most recently Egypt, I just heard), our own people are blaming capitalism for the tragic actions of lunatic madmen.
It is at times like these that I wish America was as devoid of freedom as those people would have you believe, so we could exile their ungrateful asses out of here.
"I believe that this is wrong. I believe that capitalism is a gross, horrific abomination that produces this sort of terror. If you believe otherwise then I hold you accountable."
You'd be well to remember that it was a capitalist country that gave us AC Power, Airplanes, Helicopters, Nuclear Power, Computers, Radio, Television, a large bulk of Space Travel and the resultant satellite communications networks and pretty much every other modern convienance. Let's see how well you and your family would be doing without the major medical advances made by the "evil capitalists"
If the world hates us so much why have the Canadians, Russians, British, and even the Palestinian leaders all expressed their sorrow and sent their sympathies? Why has NATO offered full use of it's military resources.
Everyone keeps talking about how we should look at how hated the US is, why because some third world countries aren't to keen on our actions? I for one am taking a different approach, I am very proud to see the worlds powers standing by us in support in this hard time.
It's ashame that some Americans such as yourself care less about the country than Russians.
Terrorists have a very focused mindset. It has been clearly stated by interviews with the Palestinian people that they believe this is going to make us pull out of Israel. The terrorists beyond a shadow of a doubt feel the same way. In their delusional heads they are powerful enough to make the US surrender. If the goal which they are so strongly fighting for and so adamantly adhering to pull us out of Israel, then trust me, pushing us further in is the last thing they want.
"ut we should take great care not to kill more innocent people and escalate the hatered and violence between the U.S. and much of the rest of the world."
Are you hearing the same news reports as I? The Prime Minister of Canada is certainly on our side, the Russians have sad "This is an inhuman act which must not go unpunished", the EU has echoed that sentiment, Yasar Arafat (sp?) himself is on our side and he is the president of the peoples who are supposed to hate us so much!, and NATO has offered the full use of it's military powers. Retaliation isn't something that would make the world mad at us. Retaliation is something that the civilized world stands ready to help us achieve, your definition of "much of the rest" in that sentence is very distorted.
Exactly, one only has to read the interviews with the Palestinians to illustrate your point. Lots of them said things such as "This is exactly what was needed to get the US to pull out of Israel." That is a fairly good example that these people who condone terrorist attacks do in fact believe that the US, and indeed the rest of the world, will just roll over for them.
If we do nothing then we are setting ourselves up for an "It can't hurt to try" attitude from every two-bit wannabe terrorist out there. Most of whom, although willing to die, are not outright suicidal.
Well, from all accounts I've heard the president of the Palestines has denounced the attacks, so I don't know exactly how much the government over there agrees with the "death the the US" sentiments of it's citizens.
The citizens I saw though were armed militant looking types. Perhaps their attitude towards us is one reason our peacemaking attempts continually fail over there.
Oh, OK. But I think you are misunderstanding MY intent as well. I didn't mean that the US should go randomly and intentionally bombing Palestinian citizens. What I meant was that if those people who cheered our deaths were to become civilian casualties as a result of our retaliation to their leaders act of war (if it was their leaders responsible) then I would feel no remorse over their loss. There is a big difference IMNSHO between feeling no remorse for civilian casualties during wartime, and cheering civilian casualties during an act of terrorism, and if the USA (or anyone) had killed palestinians civilians without warning during peacetime for no appparent reason, I doubt very many of us would be in the streets celebrating.
Umm, maybe I missed something, but Average Joe Mideaster CONFESSED to the Oklahoma City bombing. Did the thousands of people in the WTC confess to something that I don't know about? If so, what was it?
Your analogy is way passed silly. You are talking about cheering the death of the man confessed to be responsible for the death of hundreds, and the cheering of the death of thousands who did not confess to a crime that has not been committed.
You are correct. I apologize, the term has been thrown about many times today and I suppose it was lodged in my head. Although I'm not sure I agree with you completely. Genocide isn't the "wiping out" of a race, but rather the mass murder of a race. The most famous genocide being the Holocaust at the hands of the Nazis. That was certainly genocide but the Jewish people were obviously not "wiped out". That being said, I think in a way genocide still applies. They might not have all been the white race, or the black race, or the asian race, but they all were the AMERICAN race and though we might not scientifically be one race, I think this incident has proved that all but the most bigoted of us pull together as if we were blood brothers when our lifes, and way of life, is threatened.
Ok, heres the deal. First of all even the Palestinan president has denounced these attacks. It's fairly obvious that our attempts at sanctioning peace talks between the palestinians and the israelis did NOT justify the genocide of what will possibly be 10's of thousands of people. if they had then the president of the people we were supposed to have wronged so greatly wouldn't be on OUR side. Secondly we are talking about the lifes of innocent people. Had we just went over and killed thousands of civilians in one fell swoop, I doubt any "rednecks" would be out cheering. That is a sick and immoral act. But most importantly everyone keeps saying that we need to be peaceful. I can't believe anyone could be that stupid. If we don't fight back, they don't fight back, right? Fine, what about in 5 years when another terrorist groups is thinking of such an act? Would you rather them look back on this attempt and realize that they would get away with it, or realize that the full wrath of the US and her allies (which as it is shaping up now is at least Russia, and Britian, probably many more) will rain down upon them if they carry it out? What about 5 years after that, and 5 after that? Letting terrorists get away with Genocide will only show the worlds madmen that they too can get away with such an act. If more blood has to be shed now, to prevent what could be innumerable mass murder attacks in the future, then I for one say so be it. And I for one would be willing to fight and die to see that this never happens again.
It depends on who is guilty and how you define 'innocent'. The video of those people celebrating in Middle Eastern countries sickens me. I would feel no remorse for them if they or their leader is responsible and they were made to suffer the same fate as those whose deaths they cheered, or feel the same pains as those who lost loved ones today.
No, that was the joke that the British had previously been using for war purposes, IIRC. It was dubbed over a video of Hitler.
Secondly, I think the main reference was just made because Bill is one of the few people who could afford an $80,000,000 jet. In fact anytime ANYBODY wants to make a reference to being wealthy they use Bill Gates. "$100 a head?! What am I.. Bill Gates!", etc. etc. etc.
Maybe the problem is you see everything as an insult towards Microsoft when it really isn't.
Whether or not we agree with the laws, there is a big difference between the two morals.
That should of course be:
It's naive to think that the Great Programmer would use C to code the universe. Everyone knows He used Objective-C!
And you have the nerve to call us blasphemers! :)
What groundbreaking achievement will IBM announce soon?
1984 - Big Border is watching.