The BSD developer was an accomplished BSD committer and should have known better. The Linux developer offered to relicense some of his code under BSD. Theo decided to turn it into a human-rights issue with great flamag.
Bruce, it was not only one-way. It could have been handled much better on both sides.
It's interresting that people seem to think _I_ have to apologize, as the OpenBSD developers did the Bad Things in the first place. There's a simple rule: Don't violate copyrights and don't get blamed for it. It's so simple.
First, let me say that I am totally shattered and disappointed.
I am doing work in both the Linux and BSD communities, and this is by far one of the most
destructive flamewar I have ever witnessed. It will be hard to repair the damage done...
This is very sad.
More commentary from the BSD community is over at undeadly.org.
It's only fair to note that while there has been lots of stupid flaming on the OpenBSD side
as usual, the linux bcw developers, while trying to appear rather nice and careful on the public mailing lists, where
laughing their asses off about the whole thing behind the scenes in their IRC channel. They didn't exactly try hard to keep things
peaceful either.
Some quotes, the first one actually shows the igniting spark.
Others show how people enjoyed watching the flames.I find it disgusting that some
people seemed to enjoy watching an already brittle relationship between two deeply
related communities fall into pieces. Do they also throw stones at public
demonstrations and then go home to watch the riots on telly?
[20:55] <nbd> when you complain about the license violation, please make it publicly:)<br>
[20:55] <mb_> I think I should contact them. That's crossing a border. Copying magic register writes is one thing, but copying algorithms is another<br>
[20:55] Action: nbd thinks this is very blatant<br>
[20:55] <johill> mail the authors, Cc Theo de Raadt, and bcm43xx and jon (lwn)<br>
[20:55] <st3> i'dd cc lkml too<br>
[20:55] <johill> watch the outcry<br>
[20:55] <st3> for the sake of fun<br>
[20:55] <mb_> no, not lkml<br>
[20:56] <mb_> I don't like stupid replies from retards in my inbox:)
[20:56] <johill> heh
[20:56] <mb_> Too many of them subscribed there
[20:44] <st3> It's too late. He has given up, because of your first mail.
[20:44] <st3> He has already deleted his work from our tree.
[20:44] <st3> everybody is crying
[20:47] <st3> "Too late."
[20:48] <st3> rotfl
[20:48] <st3> well, i'm a bit sorry anyway
[01:40] <johill> nothing
[01:40] <johill> fluff
[01:40] <johill> he needs to fill his email with long paragraphs
[01:41] <johill> (I think he's trying to say that the developer who stole all the code shouldn't really be blamed because he might be too much of a wimp)
[01:41] <johill>;)
[01:51] Action: Newsome laughs at theo complaining about someone being "mean"
[23:46] <Kaloz> theo is emotional and sensitive guy
[23:46] <Kaloz> and you are all bastards
[23:46] <Kaloz> he's now crying in a dark corner:(
[23:46] <Kaloz>:P
[23:47] <Kaloz> hey, theo is an emo?:D
[23:53] <mb_>:D
[13:33] <Kaloz> I know the bsd morons quite enough.. what always make me laugh that they simply claim whatever software it is, if it's gpl, it's crap and badly coded
Of course you should be skeptical about what you hear on slashdot!
I wasn't meaning to say that you have to believe me (which would be quite arrogant indeed), I was meaning to say that you can see the truth for yourself with tcpdump (which is much better than just believing some random bloke on slashdot:-)
I find that hard to believe, since most consumer wireless AP are also NAT devices. Even Nintendo's own wifi adapter uses windows' connection sharing.
The traffic between players is completely UDP, so they can do NAT traversal. TCP is only used to connect to Nintendo's servers. Check for yourself with tcpdump if you still don't believe me.
disable wireless security and implement real security, such as a RADIUS login. then set up a firewall rule to allow unauthenticated devices to access nintendo's servers
The problem is that online gaiming with a DS is peer to peer. Nintendo's servers only match players.
..what I want is an affordable DS cart loaded up with Firefox, a lightweight mail client (put the keyboard on the touchscreen), a lightweight AIM app, telnet/ssh, and maybe even an IRC client. Give me that, and I won't need an iPhone.
Firefox is impossible because the DS has too little memory to run it.
But you can have links/telnet/ssh/bitchX IRC with dslinux.
A mail client (mutt or mailx) may be added in the future. If you have a host to run
bitlbee on you can have AIM via bitchX.
You'll need to buy a Supercard or an M3 (they cost small bit more than a DS game), and possibly a NoPass device (don't know how much they are right now but they should cost less than Supercard/M3). Check the dslinux wiki for more information.
Ubuntu distributes the proprietary NVidia and ATI drivers, for instance, and provides kernels with these modules pre-built and linked.
No, not "linked". They cannot distribute a kernel with proprietary modules linked in, as this would violate the GPL. They provide an optional package that installs the modules on disk, and the user does the linking by loading the module. So it is legal because Ubuntu is doing "mere aggregation" of free and proprietary components, and the user does not distribute the kernel with the proprietary module linked in (remember that the GPL does not cover use but only distribution of software).
Is this not the same thing Groklaw covered quite sometime back? There are several updates in the link, including a clarification from Allchin on that 'I'd buy a Mac' quote.
Which is hilarious in itself:)
Quote:
2-and-a-half years later, Windows Vista has turned into a phenomenal product, better than any other OS we've ever built and far, far better than any other software available today, in my opinion. It's going to be available to customers on Jan 30, and I suggest everyone go out and get it as soon as you can. It's that good.
Next thing he says is:
The spirit of being self-critical continues to flourish at Microsoft.
Does BSD handle I/O differently in some fundamental fashion than Linux? It sounds like, by eliminating block devices, that they basically remove the kernel from doing any re-ordering or caching of data, which makes things "safer" (in the event of a crash) but seems like it would have big performance penalties
Good question.
The FreeBSD people claim that no one is using block devices anyway (source):
no serious applications rely on block devices, and in fact, almost all applications which access disks directly take great pains to specify that character (or "raw") devices should always be used. Because the implementation of the aliasing of each disk (partition) to two devices with different semantics significantly complicated the relevant kernel code FreeBSD dropped support for cached disk devices as part of the modernization of the disk I/O infrastructure.
So does Oracle not rely on the block layer they pay Axboe to maintain? Or did FreeBSD's block layer implementation simply suck so badly that no one was using it? I'm using FreeBSD btw, and I don't really notice much of a difference to Linux wrt disk i/o (but I don't run busy databases).
I'd like to get a satisfying answer from a disk i/o guru as well please:-)
That somebody would be willing to write device drivers for nothing, apparently just to forward the cause of a free operating system, is pretty impressive.
Would be? This has been going on for ages. Most FOSS drivers are and have always been written by people in their spare time. Heck, most FOSS anything is written by people in their spare time.
gregkh is doing this as a PR stunt. He isn't saying anything new. It's about the same thing the OpenBSD people have been doing with their numerous public requests for hardware documentation (except they don't agree with NDAs).
I hope this will be fruitful. Not only in the interest of Linux, but also *BSD and other free systems.
Couldn't you also just get a slot-1 device, and then put memory-mapped RAM in slot-2?
Yes, if vendors supplied a RAM expansion for slot 2 the problem would go away.
Do you know if it would be possible to run an ssh client on DSLinux without RAM expansion?
The ssh client works well without additional RAM. If you want to browse the web with links or run the bitchx IRC client, you are better off with extra RAM. But if you just want to ssh into some other box and do everything else there, you don't need extra RAM. See also http://www.dslinux.org/wiki/DSLinux_as_Terminal
The latest hardware is the slot-1 type, which is a DS-sized card and requires no additional hardware or modifications to the DS. These are much simpler to use than slot-2 devices, but as the majority of homebrew was designed for the slot-2 hardware and it's ability to boot GBA software, there are some compatibility issues. They are thankfully being ironed out, and as slot-1 devices become the standard we fully expect that all new homebrew will be designed with them in mind.'
For DSLinux, the issues cannot be ironed out! So this new trend gives us headaches:(
The DS has only 4MB of RAM. DSLinux has been using extra RAM present in add-on devices for some time now (usually an extra 32MB).
But because only slot-2 is mapped into RAM, only slot-2 devices can provide additional RAM.
Slot-1 devices can only be accessed via serial.
So if you want to run DSLinux, don't get a slot-1 device, get a slot-2 device that provides additional RAM.
A quick browse of the Wikipedia webpage on sampling shows a number of cases where artists have been sued for sampling, so the best thing is to get yourself a lawyer who will direct you towards a good license that allows you to share your work non-commercially.
Could this really be avoided? Is it still time to revert those climate changes?
Shouldn't we be preparing for the worse yet?
Instead of deciding whether or not it's really happening ?
Well, according to Douglas Adams' stories, people start to panic only when it is already way too late to do something about the situation.
people are well known for their friendliness, and its very easy to get in with an IT qualification.
That's true. I would not mind living in Ireland again (in spite of the fecking rain), but I would not like to have my (potential
future) kids in an Irish school, having spent a year there myself as an
exchange student from Germany. Very conservative and strict teachers. They don't get along with
the kids at all, which creates a really bad environment for them to learn. Not to mention that
there are (yuck) single-gender schools (I was in a mixed one).
I fondly remember one incident when I had to sit in the library during a class we had off (this does not
happen at all in Germany, where you can go out during free classes), and a first year student came up to me
telling me that I was sitting on "his chair". Before I could reply anything the teacher was
at the table and furiously yelled at him Don't you talk to a sixth year like that!
When I mentioned to her that it was no surprise that he'd treated me with disrespect since he was being
treated like that all the time himself, she asked me out of the room. The other students in the library
chuckled, expecting me to get into trouble. Once the door was closed she told me she knew I was right,
but it was just the way they did things there. She kept repeating this as an answer when I asked her
why she was doing it even if she knew it was wrong...
I have to admit that the German school system is very, very bad for other reasons, namely that it is badly funded and the kids are seperated into several different branches of schools (and thus into social classes) very early on, with very bad job prospects for those with a low degree. But the teachers tend to be much nicer. Scandinavian schools sound best from what I've heard.
Also, you can say what you like about the Germans, Netherlands or Scandinavian countries,
but lets face it; they have no sense of humour.
Yeah, but you have to admit that the Irish are only funny when they're drunk:)
If you're an environmentally concerned sort, you might also be happy to know that it generates extraordinarily little pollution compared to the refinement and combustion of fossil fuels.
I'm still unhappy about the waste created: "Most of the radioactive isotopes in high level waste emit large amounts of radiation and have extremely long half-lives (some longer than 100,000 years) creating long time periods before the waste will settle to safe levels of radioactivity."
<sarcasm>
Future generations will probably be sincerely delighted about how responsibly we are handling radioactivity today, if they manage to notice before it is too late.</sarcasm>
Releasing individual tracks of a song is similar to releasing the source code of a program (from a musician's point of view).
I wish more people would do that. I'd love to buy a DVD containing all the studio tracks of recordings of Bjoerk songs,
for example, and remove the "singing", keeping the songs as instrumentals. But I don't have the freedom to do this, so I my only option is to not listen to it at all because I can't stand Bjoerk stuff the way it's been released:(
actually, writing in nice red bold letters "You don't have to agree to these terms to use this software" under the license block would create an interesting "WTF" situation
If your reasoning is that your definition of use does not include re-distribution,
this should also be mentioned explicitely to avoid accidentally misguiding users who are unaware of the details of the GPL.
Or it could be linux using proprietary binary modules to talk to the Wii hardware and software... kinda like Nvidia is doing.
No, Nintendo would violate the GPL if they did that. Nvidia is not doing this either, since nvidia is not distributing a Linux kernel binary with their drivers linked in. You can link whatever you want into your copy of the Linux kernel, as long as you don't distribute it. That's the loophole nvidia is using to get around having to GPL their drivers. They only distribute the module, and the user links it into the kernel.
Disclaimer: I really like the GPLv3 because it garantees (even better than the GPLv2 that had some loopholes) that my software will be Free for everyone to modify and reuse, forever.
(Emphasis mine)
GPLv2 intended exactly this when it was drafted. The loopholes came up with new developments (specifically, DRM hardware), and did not exist at the time. GPLv3 may just as well need another revision in a couple of years or decades, depending on new developments we cannot yet foresee.
Grep the FreeBSD commit logs for @apple, and you'll see. Apple have given a lot of code back to FreeBSD.
Interestingly, grepping the FreeBSD source tree itself for '@apple' shows a lot of hits in GPL licensed parts of the tree, such as binutils, gcc and gdb.
Now let's look at the BSD-licensed core parts:
[stsp@ted/usr/src]$ grep -r '@apple' sys sbin bin usr.bin usr.sbin lib
sys/net/bpf.h: * <dieter@apple.com>. The header that's presented is an Ethernet-like
[stsp@ted/usr/src]$
Now, I'm too lazy to run cvs log and do the grep there. But I sure hope that I would get more than one hit...
Slashdot Mirror
Bruce, it was not only one-way. It could have been handled much better on both sides.
Please see my comment here: http://bsd.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=229865&cid =18654497
Michael, please see my comment here: http://bsd.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=229865&cid =18654497
It takes two sides for a fight, always.
First, let me say that I am totally shattered and disappointed. I am doing work in both the Linux and BSD communities, and this is by far one of the most destructive flamewar I have ever witnessed. It will be hard to repair the damage done... This is very sad.
It's only fair to note that while there has been lots of stupid flaming on the OpenBSD side as usual, the linux bcw developers, while trying to appear rather nice and careful on the public mailing lists, where laughing their asses off about the whole thing behind the scenes in their IRC channel. They didn't exactly try hard to keep things peaceful either.
http://bcm-specs.sipsolutions.net/irc-logs/bcm-sphttp://bcm-specs.sipsolutions.net/irc-logs/bcm-sp
http://bcm-specs.sipsolutions.net/irc-logs/bcm-sp
http://bcm-specs.sipsolutions.net/irc-logs/bcm-sp
Some quotes, the first one actually shows the igniting spark. Others show how people enjoyed watching the flames.I find it disgusting that some people seemed to enjoy watching an already brittle relationship between two deeply related communities fall into pieces. Do they also throw stones at public demonstrations and then go home to watch the riots on telly?
Of course you should be skeptical about what you hear on slashdot!
I wasn't meaning to say that you have to believe me (which would be quite arrogant indeed), I was meaning to say that you can see the truth for yourself with tcpdump (which is much better than just believing some random bloke on slashdot :-)
Firefox is impossible because the DS has too little memory to run it.
But you can have links/telnet/ssh/bitchX IRC with dslinux. A mail client (mutt or mailx) may be added in the future. If you have a host to run bitlbee on you can have AIM via bitchX.
You'll need to buy a Supercard or an M3 (they cost small bit more than a DS game), and possibly a NoPass device (don't know how much they are right now but they should cost less than Supercard/M3). Check the dslinux wiki for more information.
No, not "linked". They cannot distribute a kernel with proprietary modules linked in, as this would violate the GPL. They provide an optional package that installs the modules on disk, and the user does the linking by loading the module. So it is legal because Ubuntu is doing "mere aggregation" of free and proprietary components, and the user does not distribute the kernel with the proprietary module linked in (remember that the GPL does not cover use but only distribution of software).
Which is hilarious in itself :)
Quote:
2-and-a-half years later, Windows Vista has turned into a phenomenal product, better than any other OS we've ever built and far, far better than any other software available today, in my opinion. It's going to be available to customers on Jan 30, and I suggest everyone go out and get it as soon as you can. It's that good.Next thing he says is:
The spirit of being self-critical continues to flourish at Microsoft.
Good question.
The FreeBSD people claim that no one is using block devices anyway (source):
So does Oracle not rely on the block layer they pay Axboe to maintain? Or did FreeBSD's block layer implementation simply suck so badly that no one was using it? I'm using FreeBSD btw, and I don't really notice much of a difference to Linux wrt disk i/o (but I don't run busy databases).
I'd like to get a satisfying answer from a disk i/o guru as well please :-)
Would be? This has been going on for ages. Most FOSS drivers are and have always been written by people in their spare time. Heck, most FOSS anything is written by people in their spare time.
gregkh is doing this as a PR stunt. He isn't saying anything new. It's about the same thing the OpenBSD people have been doing with their numerous public requests for hardware documentation (except they don't agree with NDAs).
I hope this will be fruitful. Not only in the interest of Linux, but also *BSD and other free systems.
Yes, if vendors supplied a RAM expansion for slot 2 the problem would go away.
The ssh client works well without additional RAM. If you want to browse the web with links or run the bitchx IRC client, you are better off with extra RAM. But if you just want to ssh into some other box and do everything else there, you don't need extra RAM. See also http://www.dslinux.org/wiki/DSLinux_as_Terminal
For DSLinux, the issues cannot be ironed out! So this new trend gives us headaches :(
The DS has only 4MB of RAM. DSLinux has been using extra RAM present in add-on devices for some time now (usually an extra 32MB). But because only slot-2 is mapped into RAM, only slot-2 devices can provide additional RAM. Slot-1 devices can only be accessed via serial.
So if you want to run DSLinux, don't get a slot-1 device, get a slot-2 device that provides additional RAM.
See also:i nux-devel/2006-December/000379.html m mended_storage_devices
http://mailman.dslinux.in-berlin.de/pipermail/dsl
http://www.dslinux.org/wiki/Running_Homebrew#Reco
That's true. I would not mind living in Ireland again (in spite of the fecking rain), but I would not like to have my (potential future) kids in an Irish school, having spent a year there myself as an exchange student from Germany. Very conservative and strict teachers. They don't get along with the kids at all, which creates a really bad environment for them to learn. Not to mention that there are (yuck) single-gender schools (I was in a mixed one).
I fondly remember one incident when I had to sit in the library during a class we had off (this does not happen at all in Germany, where you can go out during free classes), and a first year student came up to me telling me that I was sitting on "his chair". Before I could reply anything the teacher was at the table and furiously yelled at him Don't you talk to a sixth year like that! When I mentioned to her that it was no surprise that he'd treated me with disrespect since he was being treated like that all the time himself, she asked me out of the room. The other students in the library chuckled, expecting me to get into trouble. Once the door was closed she told me she knew I was right, but it was just the way they did things there. She kept repeating this as an answer when I asked her why she was doing it even if she knew it was wrong...
I have to admit that the German school system is very, very bad for other reasons, namely that it is badly funded and the kids are seperated into several different branches of schools (and thus into social classes) very early on, with very bad job prospects for those with a low degree. But the teachers tend to be much nicer. Scandinavian schools sound best from what I've heard.
Yeah, but you have to admit that the Irish are only funny when they're drunkI'm still unhappy about the waste created: "Most of the radioactive isotopes in high level waste emit large amounts of radiation and have extremely long half-lives (some longer than 100,000 years) creating long time periods before the waste will settle to safe levels of radioactivity."
<sarcasm> Future generations will probably be sincerely delighted about how responsibly we are handling radioactivity today, if they manage to notice before it is too late.</sarcasm>
Releasing individual tracks of a song is similar to releasing the source code of a program (from a musician's point of view). I wish more people would do that. I'd love to buy a DVD containing all the studio tracks of recordings of Bjoerk songs, for example, and remove the "singing", keeping the songs as instrumentals. But I don't have the freedom to do this, so I my only option is to not listen to it at all because I can't stand Bjoerk stuff the way it's been released :(
If you want to try Linux on your DS, check here: dslinux.org
If your reasoning is that your definition of use does not include re-distribution, this should also be mentioned explicitely to avoid accidentally misguiding users who are unaware of the details of the GPL.
Otherwise, ever heard of gpl-violations.org?
(Emphasis mine)
GPLv2 intended exactly this when it was drafted. The loopholes came up with new developments (specifically, DRM hardware), and did not exist at the time. GPLv3 may just as well need another revision in a couple of years or decades, depending on new developments we cannot yet foresee.
Now let's look at the BSD-licensed core parts: Now, I'm too lazy to run cvs log and do the grep there. But I sure hope that I would get more than one hit...