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locusts have no king, yet they advance together in ranks; - Proverbs 30:27

-Peace

Because so many "experts" keep perpetuating the myth that homosexuality is not changeable, despite thousands of living testimonies who prove otherwise. Most doctors and academics would never use terms such as "treat" or "prevent" when discussing homosexuality. They say it's just another lifestyle and that there's nothing wrong with it, not a psychological malady to be healed from. And if doctors say it's okay, the normally logical conclusion would be that there's no need to get treated. Gays and lesbians don't seek treatment because they've been told over and over that they're stuck with their anatomically-incompatible sexual [dis]orientation. Most physicians possess neither the will nor the knowledge to treat and prevent homosexuality anyway.

Do you also have a link for skin pigment treatments to turn black people white?

Skin color is a physical attribute. It's not an issue of right or wrong.

If you think a man will burn in hell because he's gay, you have a major screw loose. Would women burn in hell for sleeping with other women?

Any kind of sexual thought (prolonged) or sexual behavior could be wrong, male or female, hetero- or homosexual, depending on the relationship between the participants. However, homosexuality has the distinction of being biblically immoral in every possible relationship and situation. It is an unhealthy fixation with the same sex.

I sin in some capacity probably everyday. It is just as wrong as a homosexual act or any other sin. But the response of me and many other sinners is completely different from that of homosexuals. After my sin, I (1) freely acknowledge before man and God that my sin was wrong, (2) seek God's forgiveness with a humble and contrite heart, and (3) repent (regret and turn away, disavow, resolve to cease) of it.

Unfortunately, homosexuality isn't just a single sinful act. Homosexuality is a continual state of unrepentant sin. It's a life-long stance of rebellion against God. No one can authoritatively judge a person's soul, especially based on just one facet, but IMHO the probability is that any given homosexual will spend eternity in hell unless they repent of all sin and follow Christ before they die.

Drunkenness increases the likelihood of all kinds of mistakes and misery, technology-related or not, such as overdosing on drugs (prescription/legal or not), choking on your food, hurting those you love, splurging your secrets, getting robbed, short-changed, or pick-pocketed, making stupid gambles, getting killed by your enemy (thinking of armies here), getting raped, getting AIDS, having unplanned pregnancies, falling off a boat and drowning, falling off a ladder, etc.

Technology just creates additional situations where the danger caused by intoxication is immediate and severe. You don't have to have a Bimmer and a cell phone to be a dangerous fool when you're drunk. I think the social stigma is as old as the vineyards themselves.

I know there is a new testament teaching about drunkenness.

It is certainly not only an NT teaching. Please follow this link to the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia's entry on drunkenness, which I gave earlier. It's thorough yet concise.

Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler, and whoever is intoxicated by it is not wise. (Proverbs 20:1)

Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags. (Proverbs 23:19-21)

Drunkenness increases the likelihood of all kinds of mistakes and misery, technology-related or not, such as overdosing on drugs (prescription/legal or not), choking on your food, hurting those you love, splurging your secrets, getting robbed, short-changed, or pick-pocketed, making stupid gambles, getting killed by your enemy (thinking of armies here), getting raped, getting AIDS, having unplanned pregnancies, falling off a boat and drowning, falling off a ladder, etc.

Technology just creates additional situations where the danger caused by intoxication is immediate and severe. You don't have to have a Bimmer and a cell phone to be a dangerous fool when you're drunk. I think the social stigma is as old as the vineyards themselves.

I know there is a new testament teaching about drunkenness.

It is certainly not only an NT teaching. Please follow this link to the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia's entry on drunkenness, which I gave earlier. It's thorough yet concise.

Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler, and whoever is intoxicated by it is not wise. (Proverbs 20:1)

Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags. (Proverbs 23:19-21)

Drunkenness increases the likelihood of all kinds of mistakes and misery, technology-related or not, such as overdosing on drugs (prescription/legal or not), choking on your food, hurting those you love, splurging your secrets, getting robbed, short-changed, or pick-pocketed, making stupid gambles, getting killed by your enemy (thinking of armies here), getting raped, getting AIDS, having unplanned pregnancies, falling off a boat and drowning, falling off a ladder, etc.

Technology just creates additional situations where the danger caused by intoxication is immediate and severe. You don't have to have a Bimmer and a cell phone to be a dangerous fool when you're drunk. I think the social stigma is as old as the vineyards themselves.

I know there is a new testament teaching about drunkenness.

It is certainly not only an NT teaching. Please follow this link to the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia's entry on drunkenness, which I gave earlier. It's thorough yet concise.

Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler, and whoever is intoxicated by it is not wise. (Proverbs 20:1)

Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags. (Proverbs 23:19-21)

If historical accounts don't count, most history cannot be believed.

And of course you wouldn't be judging me, nah nah, of course not, kind of creates a logical dilemma, when one uses such a simplistic interpretation, doesn't it.

How about we apply the whole word to this: i.e. 1john4:1 might be a good start, and of course 1Thessalonians5:21 is also relevent, as is Philippians1:7-10, the point being that we are also told to use discernment, and not just to take things on face value.

I have problems with the fact that on one hand the Amish seem to have incredible hubris about following all kind of teaching of man, (i.e. their own teaching which are not in GOD's word), but on the other hand they will grow stuff like tobbacco which kills people, what of thou shalt not murder, and the totally ignore Matthew 10:16, the Amish seem to be more like as "harmless as serpents and as wise as doves"

And of course you wouldn't be judging me, nah nah, of course not, kind of creates a logical dilemma, when one uses such a simplistic interpretation, doesn't it.

How about we apply the whole word to this: i.e. 1john4:1 might be a good start, and of course 1Thessalonians5:21 is also relevent, as is Philippians1:7-10, the point being that we are also told to use discernment, and not just to take things on face value.

I have problems with the fact that on one hand the Amish seem to have incredible hubris about following all kind of teaching of man, (i.e. their own teaching which are not in GOD's word), but on the other hand they will grow stuff like tobbacco which kills people, what of thou shalt not murder, and the totally ignore Matthew 10:16, the Amish seem to be more like as "harmless as serpents and as wise as doves"

And of course you wouldn't be judging me, nah nah, of course not, kind of creates a logical dilemma, when one uses such a simplistic interpretation, doesn't it.

How about we apply the whole word to this: i.e. 1john4:1 might be a good start, and of course 1Thessalonians5:21 is also relevent, as is Philippians1:7-10, the point being that we are also told to use discernment, and not just to take things on face value.

I have problems with the fact that on one hand the Amish seem to have incredible hubris about following all kind of teaching of man, (i.e. their own teaching which are not in GOD's word), but on the other hand they will grow stuff like tobbacco which kills people, what of thou shalt not murder, and the totally ignore Matthew 10:16, the Amish seem to be more like as "harmless as serpents and as wise as doves"

And of course you wouldn't be judging me, nah nah, of course not, kind of creates a logical dilemma, when one uses such a simplistic interpretation, doesn't it.

How about we apply the whole word to this: i.e. 1john4:1 might be a good start, and of course 1Thessalonians5:21 is also relevent, as is Philippians1:7-10, the point being that we are also told to use discernment, and not just to take things on face value.

I have problems with the fact that on one hand the Amish seem to have incredible hubris about following all kind of teaching of man, (i.e. their own teaching which are not in GOD's word), but on the other hand they will grow stuff like tobbacco which kills people, what of thou shalt not murder, and the totally ignore Matthew 10:16, the Amish seem to be more like as "harmless as serpents and as wise as doves"

Seriously as a geek & a comitted christian I've always found the Amish & similar to be the ultimate in wierdo Hypocrites

It's always inspiring to see a "committed Christian" who really takes the seventh chapter of Matthew to heart.

Note that it's Jesus Himself who's speaking in this passage.

So can you turn TCPA *off* and *on* like a switch, like a jumper, or bios setting? And can you run Windows, Linux, etc. the same way you always did once TCPA bios's becomes the norm?

Yes, you can. The trick is that in a few years no one is going to let you download anything for money, unless the Microsoft-signed Fritz chip on your mobo attests that your system will enforce the limitations they set. Neither will anyone let you do online banking, recieve confidential email or process company documents. Paranoia

This of course means you have to turn TCPA *on*.

It also means you will not be allowed to transfer the MP3 you bought to your portable player without paying extra. (And of course your portable should be "well behaved" as well)

Man created life? That's news to me. Noah put every creature on the ark? That is NOT even CLOSE to what it says. Moses waved his arms and parted the ocean? Ahh, I don't think it was the wind from his arm motions. (It was not the ocean either.) You've taken God out of the picture in all three instances.

If you're going to disagree with something, it might help to know what it is you're disagreeing with.

RTFM

Life for Adam in the Garden of Eden was not an idle pursuit of berries and time with Eve. Adam was told to work the garden and care for it. The first task (see verse 19) though was to name the animals. Interestingly, modern-day scientists are now completing an extension of humankind's first job.

It all becomes clear now :).

Think about it, when we were in high school, if we could just graduate and turn 18 then we'd be grown up, mature, and happy.

In college, if we could just graduate and get that coveted degree, then we'd be successful and people would give us the respect we deserve.

Okay, now we've got a degree, if I can just find a job paying at least...

Hmm, I've got that job but I wish it gave me more fulfillment. If I could get the job that guy has, then I'd be much happier and people would see how successful I am. Oh yeah, and it pays more so I can get more toys.

Oh no, Mr SoAndSo saw me driving my Accord. I better go talk to the dealer about leasing a Lexus so the clients at work won't think I'm second rate. Oh yeah, and Bob bought that new big screen tv at Best Buy - I think I saw one two inches bigger at Circuit City that I may have to go look at.

Well, these new toys are pretty fun, but I'm still kinda lonely. All I need now is a wife... Then I can sit back and relax and enjoy being successful.

Now this is nice, loving wife, good job, lots of toys. I should build me a nice big house by the lake. Then I'd have it all.

I've got to go talk to the loan officer about that educational assistance so I can send my kids to one of their top choice ivy league schools.

When does the cycle end? The problem is, life doesn't build to some climatic point where we can sit back as say "Now I'm happy and successful." It just keeps chugging on like a machine. And yet, we keep looking for that magic something that will complete the puzzle.

We're not the first ones to go through this cycle. Take a minute and read Ecclesiastes. I am a Christian, but this is an interesting read even if you're not. King Solomon sets out to find meaning in life. If there ever was a person that could find enjoyment and happiness in life outside of God, Solomon could. He had done it all. Considered to be one of the wisest men of all time, he had intelligence, wealth, power - anything he wanted could be his. And he goes through it all and declares it to be vanity. He makes the conclusion that we can't find happiness and fullfillment outside of God.

Of course, once you begin searching for God, you run into a whole host of other issues to deal with. Ecclesiastes is a very honest book. There are two chapters dealing with atheism. In Ecclesiastes, the covenant name of God, Yahweh, is never used. Instead, Solomon refers to God euphemistically by other references and names. Some scholars believe that this book is written intentionally with the nonbeliever in mind. Ecclesiastes addresses someone who has sincere questions about life and the nature of God. It was interesting to me that the article at FastCompany explores some of the same issues that Solomon does.

Ecclesiastes is sometimes difficult to understand because we are unfamiliar with the language and illustrations. If you are really interested in studying the book, you might try reading the following book by Tommy Nelson:

The Problem of Life With God: Living with a Perfect God in an Imperfect World

(Tommy Nelson is the same guy that did a series on the Song of Solomon - a study about love, romance, and marriage. If you're struggling with those issues (don't we all?) you should strongly consider studying that book of the Bible. More resources are available at: www.thesongofsolomon.com. )

The conclusion of King Solomon is that we should enjoy life today. Be happy with what we have. Love and serve God on a daily basis - trusting Him with the big questions we don't understand. How many times do we let what we don't understand ruin what we could enjoy today? How many times do we miss the special moments of today because we're too busy trying to get to that magical point in life where everything clicks?

I know this post may open up a whole can of trolls, but for those of you who are honestly searching for answers to questions like this, I suggest that you at least give it a read and decide for yourself. It's good stuff that has made a difference in my life and in the life of people around me. I'm one of the lucky ones who has been able to hang onto a tech job during these last couple of hard years. And for the most part, I've been able to buy the toys and "stuff" that I've wanted. But I found myself not happy despite it all. I was just accumulating things and not really enjoying any of it.

I've tried lately to make it a point to slow down and enjoy the things I have - enjoy my family, enjoy my work, and spend time with the guys doing guy things ("Let's go lift heavy objects and put them back down again."). I stopped staying late at work trying to impress someone enough to get promoted and I spent that time down at the tutoring center playing with kids that don't get enough attention at home. If you want fullfillment, go spend some time with one of them - a kid comes in with a frown on her face and leaves laughing - that's success.

I think we're looking in all the wrong places.

Think about it, when we were in high school, if we could just graduate and turn 18 then we'd be grown up, mature, and happy.

In college, if we could just graduate and get that coveted degree, then we'd be successful and people would give us the respect we deserve.

Okay, now we've got a degree, if I can just find a job paying at least...

Hmm, I've got that job but I wish it gave me more fulfillment. If I could get the job that guy has, then I'd be much happier and people would see how successful I am. Oh yeah, and it pays more so I can get more toys.

Oh no, Mr SoAndSo saw me driving my Accord. I better go talk to the dealer about leasing a Lexus so the clients at work won't think I'm second rate. Oh yeah, and Bob bought that new big screen tv at Best Buy - I think I saw one two inches bigger at Circuit City that I may have to go look at.

Well, these new toys are pretty fun, but I'm still kinda lonely. All I need now is a wife... Then I can sit back and relax and enjoy being successful.

Now this is nice, loving wife, good job, lots of toys. I should build me a nice big house by the lake. Then I'd have it all.

I've got to go talk to the loan officer about that educational assistance so I can send my kids to one of their top choice ivy league schools.

When does the cycle end? The problem is, life doesn't build to some climatic point where we can sit back as say "Now I'm happy and successful." It just keeps chugging on like a machine. And yet, we keep looking for that magic something that will complete the puzzle.

We're not the first ones to go through this cycle. Take a minute and read Ecclesiastes. I am a Christian, but this is an interesting read even if you're not. King Solomon sets out to find meaning in life. If there ever was a person that could find enjoyment and happiness in life outside of God, Solomon could. He had done it all. Considered to be one of the wisest men of all time, he had intelligence, wealth, power - anything he wanted could be his. And he goes through it all and declares it to be vanity. He makes the conclusion that we can't find happiness and fullfillment outside of God.

Of course, once you begin searching for God, you run into a whole host of other issues to deal with. Ecclesiastes is a very honest book. There are two chapters dealing with atheism. In Ecclesiastes, the covenant name of God, Yahweh, is never used. Instead, Solomon refers to God euphemistically by other references and names. Some scholars believe that this book is written intentionally with the nonbeliever in mind. Ecclesiastes addresses someone who has sincere questions about life and the nature of God. It was interesting to me that the article at FastCompany explores some of the same issues that Solomon does.

Ecclesiastes is sometimes difficult to understand because we are unfamiliar with the language and illustrations. If you are really interested in studying the book, you might try reading the following book by Tommy Nelson:

The Problem of Life With God: Living with a Perfect God in an Imperfect World

(Tommy Nelson is the same guy that did a series on the Song of Solomon - a study about love, romance, and marriage. If you're struggling with those issues (don't we all?) you should strongly consider studying that book of the Bible. More resources are available at: www.thesongofsolomon.com. )

The conclusion of King Solomon is that we should enjoy life today. Be happy with what we have. Love and serve God on a daily basis - trusting Him with the big questions we don't understand. How many times do we let what we don't understand ruin what we could enjoy today? How many times do we miss the special moments of today because we're too busy trying to get to that magical point in life where everything clicks?

I know this post may open up a whole can of trolls, but for those of you who are honestly searching for answers to questions like this, I suggest that you at least give it a read and decide for yourself. It's good stuff that has made a difference in my life and in the life of people around me. I'm one of the lucky ones who has been able to hang onto a tech job during these last couple of hard years. And for the most part, I've been able to buy the toys and "stuff" that I've wanted. But I found myself not happy despite it all. I was just accumulating things and not really enjoying any of it.

I've tried lately to make it a point to slow down and enjoy the things I have - enjoy my family, enjoy my work, and spend time with the guys doing guy things ("Let's go lift heavy objects and put them back down again."). I stopped staying late at work trying to impress someone enough to get promoted and I spent that time down at the tutoring center playing with kids that don't get enough attention at home. If you want fullfillment, go spend some time with one of them - a kid comes in with a frown on her face and leaves laughing - that's success.

I think we're looking in all the wrong places.

Thanks for the SAB link; it's very instructive. I guess I haven't done my due diligence on the issue. One thing did strike me as odd, though: the author seems to base his analysis on the King James translation, which isn't the only, or even the best translation available. Compare some of the passages in the SAB with the same passages in the New International Version (a good reference can be found online here).

This sort of thing has always raised a couple obvious questions for me. How true can the Bible be, if its meaning varies from translation to translation? How do we know which translators to trust, if any?

These are tough questions, and not ones that I can answer in any definitive way right now. However...

The edition of the NIV translation that's sitting on my bookshelf at home includes a lengthy preface that details the makeup of the translation team, the sources used, and the methods used to do the translation. Where multiple sources include the same passage, one is chosen as "canonical", and the others are referenced via footnotes. The reasons for choosing one source over another are explained. Where two sources do not agree, the canonical passage is in the main text, and the alternate passage is provided in full, in a footnote. I would like to see similar assurances of scholarly rigor from the author of the SAB. Please let me know if I've missed the webpage where that information is provided. I haven't had much time to explore the site yet.

But I'm not a biblical scholar, and I really don't know anything about textual criticism. So as far as the accuracy of the translation, and the validity of the original source texts goes, I have to rely almost entirely on the experts in the field.

So I will read more of the SAB, and cross-reference it with other translations, and consider its points. It's the least I can do, if I'm at all serious about finding the truth.

May I ask a favor in return? That you read the first chapter or two of Mere Christianity, by C. S. Lewis. I couldn't find any online editions with a casual Google search, but it should be available in any bookstore. It is, I think, a good example of an intelligent, well-reasoned choice for Christianity. Its arguments are probably not bulletproof, but they make an interesting counterpoint to the SAB.

The rest of our conversation seems to be about trust: who can we trust, and why should we trust them? I think that the answer is the same for religious matters as it is for anything else. The difficulty is when two trustworthy people make contradicting statements. If we care about the topic at all, this means more work for us. In the end, we must examine the issue for ourselves, and personally decide which statement is true, and which is false.

Now that we've exchanged book titles, we can probably come back to the issue of trust later, after we've done some studying of our own :)

I've copied this post into my journal; would you mind posting your reply there, instead of here? It's probably a better place to continue this discussion.

How ironic that they don't know how bad national IDs are, considering that the Bush administration are conservative Christians!

Here's why national IDs are bad:

Revelations 13:16-18

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

quit washing your hands!

Here's another good reason to quit washing your hands: WWJD? (What Would Jesus Do?)

All you folks who are teaching your kids to wash their hands before they eat are going against the teachings of Jesus! I mean, compared to an eternity in hell, an antibiotic-resistant staph infection is a walk in the park!

Please moderate this as "+1, saving your sorry soul from eternal damnation."

.nosig

Look! It's still there in the KJV! Scroll down about 1/3 of the page and you'll seen Esther with ten chapters.

It's been in every version of the Bible I've ever seen, including the 1889 Darby Bible. Of course, the additional apocryphal text is not there.

Why don't you try BibleGateway.com and find out for yourself.

Close, but not quite.

According to the Bible, there were two men with that honour. The other is Elijah - 2 Kings 2:11

I've always considered the Enoch passage to be quite vague - Genesis 5:24

Also he wasn't the only Enoch in the bible, Cain also had a son named Enoch - Genesis 4:17.
Perhaps the distro saw itself as the son of a murderer?

Close, but not quite.

According to the Bible, there were two men with that honour. The other is Elijah - 2 Kings 2:11

I've always considered the Enoch passage to be quite vague - Genesis 5:24

Also he wasn't the only Enoch in the bible, Cain also had a son named Enoch - Genesis 4:17.
Perhaps the distro saw itself as the son of a murderer?

Close, but not quite.

According to the Bible, there were two men with that honour. The other is Elijah - 2 Kings 2:11

I've always considered the Enoch passage to be quite vague - Genesis 5:24

Also he wasn't the only Enoch in the bible, Cain also had a son named Enoch - Genesis 4:17.
Perhaps the distro saw itself as the son of a murderer?

- God

The main thing I need to say is: Read the context!

Look here if you really want to know how biblical prophecy relates to modern times.

It has started:

• And great (excessively oppressive) hailstones,
• 
  as heavy as a talent [between fifty and sixty pounds],
  of immense size, fell from the sky on the people;
  and men blasphemed God for the plague of the hail,
  so very great was [the torture] of that plague.
  (Revelation 16:21)

Trust me; Fundamentalist sermons will be referring to this story for a long time to come.

The message is here.

God sets before every man two options: good and evil. Man is free to choose at his whim.

On September 11, the terrorists chose evil and acted hatefully against other people. However, God preserved the lives of most of the near-victims. (Remember, 50,000 people daily worked in the WTC alone.)

When people are close to death, their values become aligned with God's. That is the whole point of this, I believe. When victims in the towers knew they were going to die, they didn't care about downloading the next Mozilla build. Major political controversies were not given a thought. The project that was due at 11:00 AM didn't matter anymore.

Their minds were transformed. All of a sudden, they valued the precious moments of life as never before. They recognized the truth that people are dependent on God for every breath. Their faith, perhaps long withered away, was revived and strengthened to trust in the Creator as Savior and Lord. They desperately wanted their family to know "I LOVE YOU."

These are the things that matter to God. And if the truth be known, to people too. Not technology, not politics, not entertainment, not science. It's all about getting back to the basics.

1. Love God with all of your heart, soul, mind.
2. Love other people as you love yourself.

God did allow many people to die, but that is His right. He was not obligated to give anyone life in the first place.

When you were born, did you sign a contract with God that He would give you 80 years of life?
How is it that you think God owes you something?
Are your good deeds so meritorious that God is beholden to your righteousness?
How do you reason that a sinner does not deserve death?

Who are you to judge God?

Here's where that first line comes from.

Your ejaculation about "genocide" shows that you have not grasped the concept of holiness and its inherent intolerance, or, dare I say it, "bigotry." Yes, God is a Bigot with a capital B. Bigotry has become a loaded word and a political epithet, but it is nothing more than intolerance (another loaded and greatly abused word *sigh*), and even a cursory reading of the Bible makes it clear that God is absolutely intolerant of evil. And, of course, God and only God makes the rules about what is evil.

The nations that God commanded Israel to destroy were nations of people who had rebelled against God for many generations. It was chronic, consistent, unrepentant evil and repudiation of God. So God rightly and justly commanded His chosen people to destroy them. Earlier, God had used the Flood to do the same thing. Also, this "genocide" serves as a great illustration of the eternal condemnation that awaits all people who reject God. There is no contradiction here. As individuals, we are not to murder from a personal agenda except for self-defense (this is explicitly biblical). But government is a human institution established and sanctioned by God. If God-fearing leaders justly wage war, there is nothing wrong with it, even if it wipes out a whole nation. I whole-heartedly agree with Deuteronomy 7:3: "make no treaty" with an evil people. That's why the United Nations is completely ineffectual in making progress towards peace. Treaties with liars and cheaters do not work! Peace is not the absence of war, but the absence of evil (i.e., the presence of Christ). Destroying the menacing threats of corrupt nations results in greater peace. Appeasement with evil only helps it to flourish. There's no reason to have guilt when destroying evil. We never celebrate the taking of life, but removing unbridled corruption from the earth is the SOBER DUTY of a moral people. (Moral being defined only by the single living God of the Bible.) This is wholly just and righteous because it is the way of God. It is the reason we destroyed the Taliban, and it is the reason we are going to war with Iraq.

As for your last point, Jesus instructs us to always live as if He were coming back at any moment. This is the proper way to live, regardless of when He actually does return. It is the perfect attitude of a Christian whether it's 35 A.D. or 2035 A.D. or 4000 A.D.

You are ticked that I have a "monopoly" on God. Unlike the capitalist free market system, truth is exclusionary by its nature. It can't help but be monopolistic. If you're not in line with that single, narrow truth, then you believe in a falsehood. (Hold off on the knee-jerk reaction; read on for clarification.) Jesus said,

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." (Matthew 7:13-14)

Since God is Truth, and Truth is exclusive, then God is exclusive. Unholy things cannot be in the presence of His holiness. It's not an issue of fairness or hateful condemnation. Trust me, you don't want fairness. The fair and just thing for God to do is to throw us all into Hell. But He exhibits grace that is available to all people.

The only way in which I consider myself "somehow special" is that God showed me grace, which I do not deserve. I am far from holy and have no worth in myself except that which God gave me. I do not claim to be better than anyone else. The more I grow spiritually, the more I can understand why Paul called himself "chief of sinners." Little by little, God opens my eyes to deeper (hidden) levels of sin in my life.

By nature of being saved by grace, I am indeed part of an exclusive group of people. (defs. 1-2 without qualifications; defs. 3-5 with qualifications; def. 7 invalid) However, it is by no means an exclusionary group of people. The church I attend (like most others where the Spirit is not quenched) welcomes all people. We love all people. If you are anywhere near Greenville, SC, I'd be happy to invite you to my church. Send me an e-mail. We have contemporary music in the late service. I really want you have a chance to see the "hatred" in our church. :-)

The notion that there is no Hell is a lie straight from Hell. Just go here and search for all the references to eternal life and eternal judgment/punishment/death. The acceptance of Christ does cleanse all sin once and for all. I just don't know where to begin in trying to correct you on this. These themes run throughout the entire Bible. I don't see how you miss it.

You accused me of having hatred in my world view. I don't say that someone is going to hell because they don't believe what I believe. It's not about me! I have no inherent authority to say what is true or not. All authority descends from the Father. The writers of the Bible were "carried along by the Holy Spirit" to write God's truth. I'm just reading the words on the pages and "literally" interpreting them in the proper linguistic, cultural, and literary form contexts with great deliberation, reverence, and care. I do not sacrifice core Christian doctrines because they disagree with my politics or personal "logical" reasoning of fairness. Paul wrote that God's "foolishness" is wiser than man's "wisdom." I have not imposed my will on the Bible. My values and moral framework have been greatly changed as a result of studying the Bible.

It is arrogant to say that the eternal punishment that the Lord Jesus Christ spoke of is hateful just because it turns [fallen, corrupted] man's sense of fairness on its head. No man is capable of giving increase to God's store of logic. It is arrogant to think that you can.

Kiwi, I feel exactly the same way you do. A narrow way of salvation and a broad avenue of damnation does seem hateful at first. It's hard to reconcile it with our feelings about fairness. I think that's because we have no idea how abhorrent our sin is to God. If we had even an inkling of a clue how outrageous and repulsive even our "smallest" sins appear in the eyes of God, I think we would all willingly jump into the lake of fire because of our overwhelming burden of shame. Many people never come to terms with the reality of God's punishment, but it is better to ultimately die with the hard truth than to live with a comforting lie.

Condemnation is not wrong or unfair. In the beginning, God created a perfect world for us, and He lived openly among us. But we rejected His commands and we hid from Him (Genesis 3). Our sin is the veil that separates us from Him, and we continue to hide from Him because of our sinful disposition.

Sin cannot be in the presence of holiness. It's like oil and water; they do not mix! Righteousness and wickedness have nothing in common; light cannot have fellowship with darkness, thus saith the Bible. It's not a matter of fairness. That's just the way it is. It's not hateful on God's part or mine. People end up in Hell because they've broken down the door trying to get in.

Be careful not to believe something just because it appears to be good. "Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve." (2 Corinthians 11:14-15) That last statement sounds awfully sinister, doesn't it? Wonder what he means by "their end"?

Perhaps you should just look to the fact that you exist for evidence.

I'm not going to get into a debate about evolution here, but do you really think that beings as complex as humans could really evolve by pure chance? (I won't get into a debate on evolution vs. creationism because God could have used evolution to create. Even if He did that, what counts is that you see the hand of God in it.)

Seriously. We have extremely complex organs, especially our brains. But beyond that, we have emotions and feelings and consciences. How could all that come about by pure unguided chance?

but Ok, there's more evidence.

Did you know that a core belief in monotheism (God) is very prevelant among "primitive" peoples? I'm currently reading an absolutely amazing book called Eternity In Their Hearts, which documents many examples of that. There are many cases where God revealed to the people that they would soon meet someone who has His written word, and those people received the Gospel message joyfully (even after spending centuries fending off other religions).

Want more? Jesus Christ did many healings in Bible times to prove that He was Who He said He was. Guess what -- He still does the same thing today! This site has quite a bit of useful information on that topic. And I know it's true. I have heard of many supernatural, instantaneous healings from friends and church people, and have even witnessed a college friend being healed from Attention Deficit Disorder. It really happens. The name of Jesus is powerful!

Or perhaps the fact that the Bible presented a perfect picture of what the world looks like today is good evidence. 2 Timothy 3 sums up men's attitudes these days very well. Jesus talked in Matthew 24 about earthquakes, famines, etc, but "the end is still to come". There have been significantly more earthquakes and famines in the last century or two than previously. Note in verse 24:7 "Nation will rise up against nation." The Hebrew phrase "x against x" means a TOTAL conflict, where every "x" in the set was involved. Jesus basically predicted World War 2 here. Then there's the fact that Israel is a nation again, with their own "king", which was prophesied repeatedly in the Old Testament. Do you have any idea how unlikely that seemed, even in the early 1940s? Then the prophet Daniel said that "many will go here and there to increase knowledge" in the last days. Airplanes anyone? Travel is far, FAR more common now than it ever was before. And all this is happening at the SAME TIME! And there's quite a bit more, this is just a brief sample from my memory. Oh what the heck, here's a link to a pretty good list of them.

Here's an article that gives some interesting evidence that the Torah (first five books of the Bible, which contain the creation story and the Law of Moses) could ONLY have been given by God. Hint: there are codes embedded in the Torah that predict future events.

This is just a few examples of why faith in God, and specifically in the Bible, is entirely reasonable!

Perhaps you should just look to the fact that you exist for evidence.

I'm not going to get into a debate about evolution here, but do you really think that beings as complex as humans could really evolve by pure chance? (I won't get into a debate on evolution vs. creationism because God could have used evolution to create. Even if He did that, what counts is that you see the hand of God in it.)

Seriously. We have extremely complex organs, especially our brains. But beyond that, we have emotions and feelings and consciences. How could all that come about by pure unguided chance?

but Ok, there's more evidence.

Did you know that a core belief in monotheism (God) is very prevelant among "primitive" peoples? I'm currently reading an absolutely amazing book called Eternity In Their Hearts, which documents many examples of that. There are many cases where God revealed to the people that they would soon meet someone who has His written word, and those people received the Gospel message joyfully (even after spending centuries fending off other religions).

Want more? Jesus Christ did many healings in Bible times to prove that He was Who He said He was. Guess what -- He still does the same thing today! This site has quite a bit of useful information on that topic. And I know it's true. I have heard of many supernatural, instantaneous healings from friends and church people, and have even witnessed a college friend being healed from Attention Deficit Disorder. It really happens. The name of Jesus is powerful!

Or perhaps the fact that the Bible presented a perfect picture of what the world looks like today is good evidence. 2 Timothy 3 sums up men's attitudes these days very well. Jesus talked in Matthew 24 about earthquakes, famines, etc, but "the end is still to come". There have been significantly more earthquakes and famines in the last century or two than previously. Note in verse 24:7 "Nation will rise up against nation." The Hebrew phrase "x against x" means a TOTAL conflict, where every "x" in the set was involved. Jesus basically predicted World War 2 here. Then there's the fact that Israel is a nation again, with their own "king", which was prophesied repeatedly in the Old Testament. Do you have any idea how unlikely that seemed, even in the early 1940s? Then the prophet Daniel said that "many will go here and there to increase knowledge" in the last days. Airplanes anyone? Travel is far, FAR more common now than it ever was before. And all this is happening at the SAME TIME! And there's quite a bit more, this is just a brief sample from my memory. Oh what the heck, here's a link to a pretty good list of them.

Here's an article that gives some interesting evidence that the Torah (first five books of the Bible, which contain the creation story and the Law of Moses) could ONLY have been given by God. Hint: there are codes embedded in the Torah that predict future events.

This is just a few examples of why faith in God, and specifically in the Bible, is entirely reasonable!

uh, no.

I'll try to explain the concept of evil from its Biblical perspective. You probably won't believe this (yet) but try to bear with me and see if it makes sense.

God first created all His angels, including Lucifer, the "guardian cherub," who had a very high position right at the throne of God. He, in his free will, decided to try to overtake God. THAT is how evil started. He, and a third of the angels who rebelled with him, were thrown out of heaven and became demons.

Lucifer (now Satan) convinced Adam and Even to eat the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Now that they knew of evil, God decided that they could NOT be allowed to eat of the Tree of Life. If they ate of BOTH trees, it would guarantee that man would live forever in a fallen world. The horror! That's why He banished them from the Garden of Eden. That's what caused bad things to start happening in the world (see Genesis 3.

So, he DID put things in the world that would allow death, yes. That includes giving men (now prideful as Lucifer was) the ability to kill people, and it allows natural disasters to kill people as well. It is a shame that some people die at young ages, but that just happens. The world has fallen. Again, the alternative to allowing people to die would be allowing them to live forever in an imperfect world! That would NOT be fun!

I hope that answers your question. It may not cause you to believe in God, but just know that bad things in the world don't prove that a good God doesn't exist!

Jesus has everything to do with it. You're not understanding the parallel between Adam and Jesus. We are spiritually dead because of Adam, but we can be spiritually alive because of Jesus. Since Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection were literal, then Adam's sin must also be literal.

I take the Bible literally, but that doesn't mean that every passage is literal. The Bible (or Biblios, meaning "small books") is composed of many different kinds of literature; some are musical lyrics, some poetry, some historical account, some epistles, some prophecy or apocalyptic, and parts of some are parables. You have to read each book or passage according to what kind of writing it is.

Now, Genesis is clearly not poetry. It's not a book of songs. Obviously not a letter. Not prophetic as a whole. It is written as a historical account of many origins - the beginning of the universe, our solar system, Earth, life, organisms, marriage, family, sin, salvation (Tree of Life), the Church, the nations (Babel). Historical accounts are written in as literal a manner as possible. Furthermore, when reading Genesis (or any other book), it's disingenuous to haphazardly switch between reading literally and figuratively depending upon the verse's "believability". That's no way to go about interpreting any writing.

When you say that you don't believe in a literal creation story, you are insinuating that Jews and Christians have ALL been wrong, including Moses, Abraham, Jesus, the twelve disciples - basically all the writers of both Old and New Testaments and every believer that ever lived up until the Darwinian heresy. If evolution is true, that would mean that Darwin was a prophet since he has spoken this divine revelation of Truth that has (according to you) been obscured by God's Word for all these millenia.

Jesus didn't touch on the topic of the Creation at all.
There was no need for Jesus to teach doctrines that were already universally accepted. The Pharisees were hypocrites, but they believed in a six-day creation. In fact, the Pharisees accused Jesus of doing wrong because He healed on woman on the seventh day, the day of rest.

Indignant because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath, the synagogue ruler said to the people, "There are six days for work. So come and be healed on those days, not on the Sabbath." (Luke 13:14)

Just like he didn't talk much about masturbation.
Yes, He did. Let's first admit that masturbation causes us to think lustfully about women - to desire them only as a means to satisfying our flesh. The Lord Jesus said, "You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." (Matthew 25:7-8)

Genesis explains the purpose of sex, and it is not for gratifying the self. Of course, there is pleasure in giving it to your spouse to whom you "cleave" (Genesis 2:24 KJV).

So tell me, do you think we should kill all the homosexuals in the world, or carry on God's command to destroy the infidels in the promised land?
-- or --
Do you think we should carry out Jesus' command against putting anyone to death as a punishment? ("He who has no sin cast the first stone.")
This nicely parallels the discussion about the Sabbath above. Please read this passage, paying special attention to verse 8. Also, notice footnote 2, referring to Hosea 6:6. The purpose of the Law in the OT is to demonstrate that man cannot earn his salvation by keeping the law. The emphasis was on relating the weight and seriousness of the Law, but also on the neccessity of God's grace for one's salvation as in Hosea 6:6: "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings."

I'm troubled that you don't want to believe that something in the Bible is literal unless thousands of people saw what was being written about. By that standard, we can believe little of the Bible. The only events recorded in the NT that were witnessed by thousands were the crucifixion, the resurrected body of Christ, and the beginning of the Christian Church on the day of Pentecost. Those events provide text for part of the Gospels and Acts. That leaves a whooole lot of the Bible in the questionable/unbelievable category. However, without the rest of the Bible, the crucifixion and resurrection are absolutely meaningless! You can't have two windows on the second story of a house suspended in mid-air without the rest of the house to support it.

Kymermosst, I hope I haven't misrepresented your position, but I'm concerned about your lack of faith. There should not be qualifications in order to believe what the Bible says. The Lord Jesus told the doubting Thomas, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." (John 20:29) Since you believe in Jesus, you should believe also in what Jesus believed. As a follower and student of Master, Teacher, Creator of the Universe, the Son of God, Jesus Christ, it should be the yearning of your heart to believe all things and do all things as He did.

P.S. If you didn't follow the links in the last post, I hope you will go back and do so. I recommend that you sign up for this weekly newsletter about Creationism. I find it very interesting. There's no risk of spam, and it's just one e-mail per week.

The main point I am arguing is, if it looks like a banana, smells like a banana, and tastes like a banana, it's likely a banana.
It looks like the Bible is right, and evolution is wrong.

One thing is, the process of Creation isn't core to a Christian's belief. The Creation, as described in Genesis, is pretty much irrelevant.
Genesis and evolution conflict on many fundamental issues. According to Genesis, plants were created on the third day... but the sun was not created until the fourth day! Please tell me what version of evolution is compatible with this. Photosynthesis before the sun? Materialistic science would reject this miracle, and it would not accept the notion that (life-sustaining) light on the earth existed before the sun (light created on first day). Also, the order that animals were created conflicts with the supposed order of evolution. There are many, many other irreconcilable conflicts, both physical and theological.

If it had been eliminated when the Bible was put together, you'd never have noticed. It's not a central issue, and questioning or invalidating the Creation doesn't destroy Christianity.
It is a fundamental issue! Invalidating creation invalidates the Bible. Every Scripture is God-breathed and is beneficial for teaching [or, doctrine], for verification, for correcting faults, for instruction in righteousness. (2 Timothy 3:16) This was written by Paul, a former Pharisee and multilingual (Hebrew, Greek, Latin?) Torah scholar who studied under the famous rabbi Gamaliel and being God's chosen "Apostle to the Gentiles" "carried along by the Holy Sprit" to write what he wrote. Now tell me, Kymermosst, what are your credentials that you feel justified in undermining the author of half the New Testament?

The main discrepancy between the Bible and evolution is the issue of death. Evolution asserts that millions of years of death, disease, bloodshed, and suffering existed before man evolved. But the Bible teaches that it was man's action in the Garden of Eden that brought about the world's fallen state. When Adam ate from the Tree of Knowledge, God had to hide the Tree of Life (Gen 3:22-24). The entire earth was cursed, but not until Adam and Eve were created and disobeyed God. If death and destruction existed before people existed, then there is no purpose for Jesus Christ. We know that Christ was a literal man, performed literal miracles, and literally died on a wooden execution stake with a crossbeam for the sins of billions of literal people. For this reason, it is reasonable and logical to believe that Adam and Eve were literal individuals in an actual garden and talked openly and plainly with their Creator. By logical extention, the account of the creation should be read plainly and literally. To insert myriad beliefs of evolution and millions of years into the Creation story is just mind-boggling distortion and wild speculation. Since the Bible clearly states that creation occured over six days, why is this so hard to accept?

Don't feel so threatened.
I'm threatened because I will not compromise the truth. Biblical creation and evolution are incompatible. The study of creation leads to godliness; the study of evolution leads to atheism. Notice that there are no prominent Christians in evolutionary fields. The leaders are always atheist/agnostic. Creation glorifies God; evolution tries to disown God. I am not just guessing that this is true; I know it's true. Read what evolutionists say. Theistic evolution is a slippery slope away from God.

Remember, that the translations into English are not always accurate as they are in the original language, and in the original Hebrew, it is possible to interpret the description of the Creation in a way that indicates that it took six days for God to reveal the Creation to Moses, not that it took six days for God to do it.
Jews believe that it took six days to create the world. That is, traditional Jews do. Since there is dissension among Hebrew speakers (only after Darwin's prominence), this really brings out the true reason for the division of belief. If language were the issue, then all Jews would believe one way or the other. The issue, then, is actually an unwillingness to believe what the Torah/Bible plainly says. It is the compromising of beliefs because of the influences of the secular/pagan culture.

But this really is about interpretation, ien't it?
No. It's about Christians wanting to get along with everybody else. It's an issue of pride and not wanting to look foolish in the eyes of academia and the scientific community. As Christians, we know that "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding." (Prov. 9:10)

Keep in mind that many so-called Christians interpret the bible in very interesting ways.
I encountered such a person when I read your post.

Look, Jesus of Nazareth was a rabbi. He knew the Torah inside and out, and he believed in the literal creation account. You want to argue with Jesus? Jesus didn't have to read Genesis to know about creation; He was there! He is part of the Tri-Unity of Father, Son, and Spirit. John 1:1 says: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (Word = Jesus)

You must know the Bible, my friend. The best commentary and study aid of the Bible is the Bible itself. If you interpret the Bible through the worldview of Bible-haters, you are bound to end up with some "very interesting" interpretations.

Moses just had to go to the water to make it recede, Joshua had to get his feet wet before he saw results!

No, it's public domain.

Here's the reference.

OK, from the flip side of the coin.

Italy is predominantly Roman Catholic... check it out. [CIA]
and the Roman Catholic lawbook is the Bible...
and the Bible says all sin and blasphemy is forgivable, except blasphemy against God... check it out. [Bible]

So from that end, it makes perfect sense to block a website that carries blasphemy against God, instead of say, child porn.

God never once told anyone to rape anybody

This comment has spared me from bothering to look up an instance of God ordering rape, since it points out Numbers 31:17-19. Rape is implied in ownership of women. (In fact, in many countries in the world today, "marital rape" is taken for granted as an okay thing.) Which reminds me: I forgot to mention God's sanctioning of slavery in the Bible as well.

But if I understand all you people correctly, that would constitute a massive disregard for the psycho's 'rights' and 'freedom'. And that person running around claiming God told him to kill everyone is trampling on YOUR 'freedom'. So who's 'freedoms' are being more trampled on?

Yes, we do have to give a little "freedom" to live together. I give up the freedom not to go around stealing people's stuff and killing people for the security of knowing that my own stuff won't be stolen, and that people won't be killing me. Just where the line between freedom and security ought to be drawn is a matter of constant debate, of course. I for one have never said that I don't want any security.

As a born-again Christian, I don't see how I can EVER separate my public life from my private life: my God desires/demands that my public life reflect my personal beliefs. I'm not going to run around killing people, but if I pray in a restaurant, who's business is it?

Again, I think you're attacking a strawman. I for one have not the slightest issue with your praying in a restaurant. I don't think there's any law against that, either. I have no problem with your religious beliefs influencing your public life, either. I don't even have a problem, per se, with people's religious beliefs affecting matters of public policy. (I am not theoretically opposed to people opposing contraception education for religious reasons, for instance, however much I may disagree.) What I am against is gov't policy specifically endorsing a religious belief.

So again, you have the freedom to act in accordance with your religious beliefs, but I have the right to act in accordance with mine. And, in reality, we will compromise, even if we're not fully satisfied. That's how real life works.

I fail to understand how my use of the ellipses is "dishonest." The part I omitted was "all Men are created equal, that they". I suppose I should have left that part in; it would have only bolstered my claim that they believed in God!

The [empty-headed] fool says in his heart, "There is no God." This is quoted from the Amplified Bible. The statement appears in Psalm 14:1 and Psalm 53:1. The additional text is clearly marked so that the reader will not confuse it with the actual translated text. "Empty-headed" is simply a clarification of what the original Hebrew word means. If you read the rest of the verses I linked to, you'll see what is meant by "fool," as well. Here's an explanation of the AB that I copied from here:

It attempts to take both word meaning and context into account in order to accurately translate the original text from one language into another. The Amplified Bible does this through the use of explanatory alternate readings and amplifications to assist the reader in understanding what Scripture really says. Multiple English word equivalents to each key Hebrew and Greek word clarify and amplify meanings that may otherwise have been concealed by the traditional translation method.

Ann, God loves you more than you could imagine. Here you are thumbing your nose at him, but he still loves you so much that he would take you up in his arms and embrace you and be with you for all eternity. You (and I and everyone else) are guilty in God's court, but he came and sacrificed himself on the cross to pay the price for your freedom. He was separated from the Father so you wouldn't have to be. But you must accept the gift and believe. And follow Jesus as Lord.

There's nothing in your past that can hinder your acceptance. "No matter how deep the stain of your sins, I can remove it. I can make you as clean as freshly fallen snow. Even if you are stained as red as crimson, I can make you as white as wool," (Isaiah 1:18) says the Lord. I am praying that you will come to know who Jesus is... really.

I fail to understand how my use of the ellipses is "dishonest." The part I omitted was "all Men are created equal, that they". I suppose I should have left that part in; it would have only bolstered my claim that they believed in God!

The [empty-headed] fool says in his heart, "There is no God." This is quoted from the Amplified Bible. The statement appears in Psalm 14:1 and Psalm 53:1. The additional text is clearly marked so that the reader will not confuse it with the actual translated text. "Empty-headed" is simply a clarification of what the original Hebrew word means. If you read the rest of the verses I linked to, you'll see what is meant by "fool," as well. Here's an explanation of the AB that I copied from here:

It attempts to take both word meaning and context into account in order to accurately translate the original text from one language into another. The Amplified Bible does this through the use of explanatory alternate readings and amplifications to assist the reader in understanding what Scripture really says. Multiple English word equivalents to each key Hebrew and Greek word clarify and amplify meanings that may otherwise have been concealed by the traditional translation method.

Ann, God loves you more than you could imagine. Here you are thumbing your nose at him, but he still loves you so much that he would take you up in his arms and embrace you and be with you for all eternity. You (and I and everyone else) are guilty in God's court, but he came and sacrificed himself on the cross to pay the price for your freedom. He was separated from the Father so you wouldn't have to be. But you must accept the gift and believe. And follow Jesus as Lord.

There's nothing in your past that can hinder your acceptance. "No matter how deep the stain of your sins, I can remove it. I can make you as clean as freshly fallen snow. Even if you are stained as red as crimson, I can make you as white as wool," (Isaiah 1:18) says the Lord. I am praying that you will come to know who Jesus is... really.

I fail to understand how my use of the ellipses is "dishonest." The part I omitted was "all Men are created equal, that they". I suppose I should have left that part in; it would have only bolstered my claim that they believed in God!

The [empty-headed] fool says in his heart, "There is no God." This is quoted from the Amplified Bible. The statement appears in Psalm 14:1 and Psalm 53:1. The additional text is clearly marked so that the reader will not confuse it with the actual translated text. "Empty-headed" is simply a clarification of what the original Hebrew word means. If you read the rest of the verses I linked to, you'll see what is meant by "fool," as well. Here's an explanation of the AB that I copied from here:

It attempts to take both word meaning and context into account in order to accurately translate the original text from one language into another. The Amplified Bible does this through the use of explanatory alternate readings and amplifications to assist the reader in understanding what Scripture really says. Multiple English word equivalents to each key Hebrew and Greek word clarify and amplify meanings that may otherwise have been concealed by the traditional translation method.

Ann, God loves you more than you could imagine. Here you are thumbing your nose at him, but he still loves you so much that he would take you up in his arms and embrace you and be with you for all eternity. You (and I and everyone else) are guilty in God's court, but he came and sacrificed himself on the cross to pay the price for your freedom. He was separated from the Father so you wouldn't have to be. But you must accept the gift and believe. And follow Jesus as Lord.

There's nothing in your past that can hinder your acceptance. "No matter how deep the stain of your sins, I can remove it. I can make you as clean as freshly fallen snow. Even if you are stained as red as crimson, I can make you as white as wool," (Isaiah 1:18) says the Lord. I am praying that you will come to know who Jesus is... really.

Christians believe in the Bible as the Word of the living God. Mormons have altered the Bible to fit their own theology. They don't believe in the same Jesus as Christians do; they don't believe in the same God as Christians do. Since the word "Christians" was coined in Antioch a couple of millennia ago, it has meant followers of Christ. The Mormons redefined who and what Christ is to fit their theology, then based on that definition call themselves Christians.

That is known as bait and switch in retail. It's much like the JW's, who also believe in a very different Christ.

Just because you call yourself something doesn't mean you are that, particularly if you have quietly switched meanings of the key words involved.

Mormons think their God was once a man; Christians see their God as self-existent, outside of our time-space continuum (which he created on the first day). Mormons think they all came from a planet (Kolob?? not sure) and that each of them have a chance, if they're good enough, to become gods of their own planet, if they are male Mormons. The females get to be pregnant continually with "spririt babies" if they're good. Mormons also think (see their Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 5:21) that black people are black because they were cursed by God.

True Christians on the other hand, believe what the apostle Paul wrote: There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

If an alien dosn't have a soul, then it's called 'meat' and it's not a sin to kill it if you put it to good purpose.

Precisely my point. And who decides whether or not aliens have souls? Considering that there is no evidence for the existence souls (and, in fact, there is evidence *against* the existence souls), my guess is that religious leaders will base their decision on whim.

The Ten Commandments talk about murder, wrongfully causing a death, not killing.

Bible Gateway is your friend (and your enemy). Your assertion that The Ten Commandments (I'll assume that you're discussing the first set of "the" Ten Commandments) talk about "murder" instead of killing is not supported by the translators of the KJV, NKJV, ASV, KJ21, and DARBY translations of the scriptures. Are you suggesting that those translators were incompetent and did not know the difference between "to kill" and "to murder"? I suggest you try and garner some consensus among Christians as to what Exodus 20:13 means before you claim that it discusses "murder" as if the issue had been conclusively decided. It seems to me that the jury is still out! I agree that translating "to kill" as "to murder" avoids a lot of potential problems, but since when did human expediency govern the will of God?

The Bible never gives arguments for the existence of God. It's only recently that such a large number of people claim not to believe in some kind of supernatural god. Throughout the ages, it's been seen as an axiomatic truth. Genesis states, "In the beginning, God..." No explanation. It's just always been obvious. The US forefathers reiterated this: "We hold these Truths to be self-evident that all Men... are endowed by their Creator..." The Bible states: The [empty-headed] fool says in his heart, "There is no God."

no claim could be more extraordinary that the claim that there is an all-powerful being that can turn people into salt

Christians don't know how to scientifically explain the conversion of Lot's wife into a pillar of salt, AFAIK. This is, by definition, a miracle. However, many have a strong feeling that it has something to do with the fact that it occurred very close to the Dead Sea, which is the saltiest body of water in the world - much saltier than oceans. Perhaps a "dirt devil" (sand storm) came about and caked her with the salt that was in the air.

impregnate virgins

Just one virgin. It was a one-time miracle for God's one Son. This truly must be taken on faith. However, it seems to me that a new living being growing within another and coming forth into the world is really the greater wonder. (I'm not sure if we can call birth a miracle since it doesn't violate natural norms, although IMHO there is obviously a supernatural element.)

control the weather over the entire earth

Again, the far greater wonder is that there is weather or an earth at all. To question God's abilities is to question God's existence. If God made the earth, why would it be hard for Him to manipulate it? Can't a potter remold his sculpture? Can't a programmer rewrite his code? If a developer can skin his program, why can't God "skin" his planet's weather?

Written histories by ancient peoples are, at best, suspect.

One of the most interesting things that jumps out at me as I study the Bible is how human nature is strikingly consistent, universal, and timeless. Mankind is the same in all places and in all times. Technology, science, and education really have not changed our nature at all. I wouldn't criticize the ancients lest I bash modernity equally. The fact is that the historicity of the Bible is unparalleled by any other ancient work. For 700 pages of extraordinary proof, I suggest that you read The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell.

There are a million and seven excuses by Christians about why God is so elusive.

In the beginning, God was not elusive. Genesis 3:8 says, "Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden." Regardless of how literally or figuratively you want to interpret that, God was definitely not elusive.

Notice this! It was not God who began to hide from people; it was people who began to hide from God! And why? Because the man and woman had sinned and were ashamed.

A major theme of the Bible as a whole is that our sin (rebellion against God - this includes disbelief) is an impenetrable wall that separates us from God. Evil and holiness/perfect goodness cannot coexist in the same place at the same time. It's like mixing oil and water. They always stay separate no matter how vigorously you try to stir them together.

If God seems elusive it is because your sin has blinded you.

This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Corinthians 2:13-14)

When I shut up the heavens so that there is no rain, or command locusts to devour the land or send a plague among my people, if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land. Now my eyes will be open and my ears attentive to the prayers offered in this place. (2 Chronicles 7:13-15)

The question is not, "Why does God allow some people to suffer?" The question we should be asking is, "Why doesn't God cause us all to suffer?" God is loving, but He is also just. In God's court, we are all criminals and deserving of the (eternal) death penalty. The reason anybody ever has any comfort or happiness at all is because of God's grace (unmerited favor). If God were to give us what we deserve, we would all have Ebola from birth and suffer even greater horrors in hell forever.

Are AIDS and Ebola really the worst kind of things that can happen to someone? I say No for two reasons. First of all, the longest span of time any disease can continue to afflict a person is his mortal life. From start to finish a person usually doesn't have a disease more than 80 years. That may seem like a long time unless you acknowledge the full timeline of your existence. The condition of our being's wellness in this life isn't worthy to be compared with the condition of our being in the afterlife. How long do you draw a segment of 80 years on a timeline that includes eternity? It's an invisible speck. Perspective! (I realize that it requires faith to even believe in an afterlife. I'm just giving you what I fervently believe to be God's world view, which is what I think you were wanting.)

It's much more important to be concerned about what your wellness will be in the infinite afterlife than in this short physical life. So what calamity exists in the afterlife that we should be concerned about? You're probably already somewhat familiar with the concept of heaven and hell so I won't go into it, except to say that they are real, literal places, and you'll be in one or the other for all time. The thing to remember is that your choice MUST be made during this short, mortal life. When your body dies, your eternal destination is set for all time. No second chances. As the band Rush used to sing, "If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice."

You would have me believe that he loves all of us.

Yes, I would. He has provided a way to save us from the only tribulation that we really need to worry about. As soon as we (man) messed up, God cleaned up. In Genesis 3:23, He provided a way to save us from the punishment for our sin. God "placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life." Jesus Christ came and brought this salvation to us by taking all of the punishment that man deserves and heaping it upon Himself, the one who had no sin of His own. Is this not love?

Compared to hell, everything else is "small stuff." Even death, disease, and disasters. It's sad, but it's all man's fault. Such things didn't happen before man allowed the Devil to bring sin into the world. It's not true that "bad things happen to good people." Bad things happen, true, but is anyone good by God's standards? The Bible says No.

priests are sexually molesting young children

The Bible says that you reap what you sow. If you sow evil then you will reap evil. The Catholic Church has accepted doctrines and practices that are unbiblical and/or pagan. Most notably, in recent years, the Catholic Church has become accepting of homosexual men being priests. Now, the Bible excludes (from God's plan) or condemns homosexuality from Genesis to Revelation. (References upon request. It would require another post.) Whenever the subject comes up in the Bible, the word "abomination" usually comes close behind.

Now that the gate to the Catholic priesthood has been thrown wide open, many gay men have been attracted to it and are welcomed in. It turns out that the Church's tolerance for gay priests combined with the time-honored, traditional vows of celibacy are a tragic combination. Let me explain. In the relatively small population of men who don't mind abstaining from sexual relations with women, you can see that homosexual men would make up a large percentage of candidates for the priesthood.

So, here again, mankind has reaped what he has sown. The Catholic Church disobeyed God's commandments, and "innocent" (remember previous discussion) children suffered as a result. Granted, not all of the perverted priests are gay, but gay people certainly never had a monopoly on sin. The Bible says, "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God." Thankfully, the Bible also says that "God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." (John 3:16-17)

I was just skimming over this part of the thread and was excited to see somebody boldly standing up for Christians, because I saw myself in that description. But then you disappointed me. ;-) It's sad, but some Christians do have nothing more than a blind faith. I believe that is a sin based many verses of Scripture. The writer of Ecclesiastes says in 1:13, "I devoted myself to study and to explore by wisdom all that is done under heaven. What a heavy burden God has laid on men!" Most Jewish children in Israel to this day memorize the entire Tanakh (Old Testament) early in life.

"Come now, let us reason together," says the Lord. (Isaiah 1:18)

Our faith is founded on facts, which were recorded as any other history is recorded but with far more numerable and trustworthy records. Our faith is founded on the literal, living, interacting God (Y-H-W-H) who manifested himself as a literal, historical Man (Yeshua) to restore mankind from its fall from righteousness dating back to another literal, historical man (Adam) in the literal Garden of Eden. There is much to be learned and studied. You want details, I know, I know... So Go read a book. Or a website

The greatest commandment demands intellect:

Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. (Matthew 22:36-38)