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Palestinians who were responsible for the killing of Israeli children after the establishment of the PA in 1993 also benefited from impunity.

Update: I found the reference you pointed out. Great work putting a link that explains next to nothing about your point of contention. Next time, link the document itself.

Okay, find me a biased American reporter who writes articles asking Americans to sympathize with Al-Qaeda.

Maybe he is not a reporter but this guy is an American on al-Qaeda's side.

That should be enough evidence to show that the Israeli attack on Gaza more morally ambiguous than the American attack on Afghanistan.

Sorry but the opinions if two biased people don't make what they say true.

Okay, maybe in your mind the prisoner swap was unjust. But it was still legally binding.

It is common law that any contract signed under duress is null and void. I would say "Sign or we keep your soldier" would be considered duress.

You mean the tunnels that were built so that Gazans could smuggle in the fuel ...

And arms and rockets into Gaza. They will also be used, as Hamas has stated and is doing now, to strike at Israel.

Abbas has already said that he supports the Israeli bombings in Gaza

Do you have any reference for this statement?

Maybe the PLA would have caught the criminals if they had a real police force, but Israel will not allow them to maintain one.

Did you even look at the date of that report? That happened twenty years ago. Things have changed.

Fatah = Israeli military government 2.0.

So if Fatah is a sham then any coalition between Hamas and Fatah is also a sham. You can not have it both ways.

Israel has "warned" the civilians to leave, but the Egyptian border is closed, so where can they go?

They have not been told to leave all of the Gaza Strip. They have been told to leave certain areas where operations will be held. Operations outside those areas are in direct retaliation to Hamas rocket attacks. Maybe Hamas should stop using their own people and human shields?

Then ninety Palestinian civilians are dead. Ninety for three.

It is not just about the deaths of 3 Israelis. It is also about the launching of rockets into Israel. While they cause few deaths they cause great terror. Would you feel safe if at any moment a rocket or mortar round could fall out of the sky and kill you? Read this for some perspective. It is like poking a bear. If Hamas pokes Israel enough times with rockets and terrorist attacks they will be swatted by the IDF.

This is what will happen to you if you vote for Hamas. This is what we will do to you. Some democracy those West Bankers have, eh?

I see no problem with that. If the Palestinians vote for Hamas they are voting for more rocket attacks and more Israeli retaliation. If they vote for a terrorist organization bent on the destruction of Israel they deserve to bear the consequences of that vote. Showing those consequences is not a bad thing.

Nobody of the Jewish faith is allowed to pray on the temple mount.

To quote the fount of all knowledge: Although freedom of access was enshrined in the law, as a security measure, the Israeli government currently enforce a ban on non-Muslim prayer on the site.

So it's apparently not the Palestinians who have a problem with Jews praying there.

And while Palestinian settlers can pick any valley they want to to build houses in and they don't even have to pay taxes on them, it is illegal for Jewish settlers to do the same on barren, rocky hilltops.

Citation please? The way I keep hearing that story seems to be quite the opposite. Jewish settlers are offered financial incentives (source, source), while the majority of Palestinian building permits are turned down (source).

A friend of mine visited the West Bank last summer. She worked at a small Palestinian farm which was denied electricity and running water. She saw families who lived in caves because their houses had been torn down and they weren't allowed to build new ones. The village she worked in was ~10km away from the next. What would normally be a 10 minute drive had been turned into a 1 hour journey because the separation wall conveniently deviated from the 1949 border, along which it was supposed to be built, to include a Jewish settlement.

Yeah, I totally see the Israelis being oppressed here...

Have You Killed a PalestinianToday?

May 22, 2009 5 Comments

1. In the good old days when the Summer and Winter Olympics were hosted in some really odd country, Canada for some reason comes to mind, the hosts used to be able to introduce their own sport to the smorgasbord of increasingly ridiculous sporting events that are the fruit of the Olympic Movement as the rich like to call it. So, maybe the Canadians would have introduced curling but they were beaten to this by the French in 1924. Anyway, a host country could push to have one of its sports as a demonstration sport to further the sports popularity.

Embracing the universalist elitism of the Olympic Movement and keeping in step with the mores of globalism, the tuyuur here at Mantiq al-Tayr very much hope that the Olympics will soon be hosted by Israel or by its satellite country, The United States of America. If the games are hosted in the US, then we recommend that waterboarding be introduced as a demonstration sport. In fact, recent events have provided excellent victims to be publically waterboarded by Israeli-trained CIA contractors and the winner would be the one who gets the most outrageous confession from these four morons who were set up by the FBI. (While Rosen and Weissman get off. Oh, and where the hell is Edward Mosberg? An email from Mantiq al-Tayr to the author of the article sent two days ago asking if Mosberg has come back to the US or not remains unanswered.)

However, in the interests of providing a really entertaining demonstration sport that will stimulate the loins of everyone from AIPAC to Judith Miller, we here at Mantiq al-Tayr held a minyan and bobbed our heads up and down begging Shadai to have the Olympics held in Israels eternal capital (no, not New York you smart asses), Jerusalem.

The Israeli national pass time is finding creative ways to murder Palestinian men, women and children. They are very good at it and probably would take the Gold, Silver and Bronze medals. Still, its great fun and Im sure that the US and the UK would at least give the Izzies a run for their money that they took from us.

So, for example, lets take the case of Israeli Border patrolmen Shachar Butbika and Dennis al-Hazub. They won a gold medal in 2002 for abducting a 17 year old Palestinian boy, beating the shit out of him, and then kicking him off the top of their patrol car as it roared down the road at 80 kph. His head smashed into the pavement and the impact killed him. What made this one even more fun was that the boy violated Israeli law by resisting their efforts to toss him off the patrol car kind of like a battle you have when you catch a big fish and real it in. Hahaha-Aretz reports:

He was beaten by Butbika and then forced to jump from the moving vehicle. He resisted, holding onto the jeeps roof, but was eventually forced out. One of the officers shouted hes dead. They drove away, without offering medical assistance, and tried to eliminate the evidence.

The 17 year old boys name is: 'Imran Abu Hamdiya

Here is a photo of him.

Imran Abu Hamdiya

Butbika and al-Hazub also won the silver medal that day as well. For earlier in the day they picked up another Palestinian youth, 20 year old Alaa Sankrut. Sankrut

was hauled onto the jeep, driven to a discreet location and kicked and beaten with a pickaxe handle, sustaining skull fractures

Unfortunately, Butbika and al-Hazub fucked up and the guy lived, much to the

Look, Palestine already has an invisibility cloak! They've cloaked their rockets to look like hospital oxygen tanks!

http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Casualties.asp

Four Palestinians are killed for every dead Israeli. If this isn't systematic genocide and Gaza isn't a ghetto for Arabs then please enlighten me.

Keeping the Israeli populace ignorant of the atrocities Israel performs takes huge amounts of propaganda, censorship and such tactics.

That's funny, because the people who would be actually doing these "atrocities" are, surprise surprise, Israelis! Israeli soldiers who go home every week and areWhen have you last seen the photo of a dead palestinian boy on the main cover or Yediot, or a story about what life in the conquered territories on the channel 2 news? completely free to tell their family, friends and the press about any atrocities they have witnessed. And yet this, somehow, doesn't happen. I wonder why?

This question has many answers. By far the worst attrocities are not performed by a single bad soldier. The worst ones are created by a large, irresponsive and irresponsible military beurocracy. Do you know what a palestinian man has to go through to meed his daughter in another part of the conquered terrirories? Or god forbid, in Israeli prison. What one has to do there to maintain a job, to go to school, to have the life we Israelis take for granted? Of the attrocities that are performed by single or few soldiers, they are indeed freely told (if the soldiers find it in their best interest to bring them up). Some end up in stories on such sites as B'tselem, but never reach the daily news. I also do hear, from time to time, people bragging about their prowess after doing some reserve time by mentioning what I would consider horrific abuses. Most Israelis are so brainwashed they think nothing of it.

Have you served in the army?

Yes, I have served in the army. That is not however something I like to admit. But as an 18 year-old boy, I had nothing but my parents' advice to guide me, and they said I should, so I did.

Do you have friends in the army?

Most of my friends serve in the military. I can't make them see my point of view, since this is such a powerful part of being Israeli, there is no chance they will change their mind. I also have a few friends who agree with me and do not serve anymore. To each his own, I won't turn anyones hand.

Are you (or anyone else) witnessing attocities that are not reporting to the press? You do realize this is a free country. Go ahead, tell the world about it.

Most of the stuff "they" don't want you to see isn't censured. Some of it is, but most of it is just marginalized and spun beyond recognition. Those who want to know what's going on have to turn to human rights organisations to tell them, because you can't trust the kind of materials they put in the mainstream channels. God, we're like a country that has only Fox News to watch. BTW, it all gets "reported to the press", the problem is, it's then the press that picks, chooses and distorts what it then reports to the public.

Full disclosure - I'm Israeli too and give me an example of your bull-shit atrocities.

I can give you hundreds.

This will end up being by used by the Israeli Left wing fascists to jail anyone who opposes the forced expulsion of Jews from their homes in areas the government wants to turn over to the Arabs.

What? Left-wing fascists? Sharon, while arguably fascist, was no left-wing bleeding heart. It was he who suggested that crazy idea about pulling settlements out of the ground. A better plan would have been just to stop funding for defense in the Gaza strip, leaving those settlers to defend for themselves.

There is poetic justice to Sharon's plan though, since kicking people out of their homes is what got us into this mess in the first place.

You seem to forget the thousands of teenagers who were jailed without trial for demonstrating against the expulsion of the Jews from Gaza.

I didn't forget, it just didn't seem relevant to the post I was making. You are right. People (be they settlers, palestinians, right or left wing adherants, jews or arabs) have the right to assemble and speak their mind without being charged, prosecuted or harmed. But don't you see that by saying to people all this time "these people (palestinians) are sub-human and therefore have no rights.", by robbing them of their rights, our own rights are at risk of being obviated? Because now people think "if I can shoot into a crowd in one demonstration, why can't I in another?" - repression is a frame of mind, which the settlers may have seen, for once, the back side of.

Wonder why they didn't mention Shooting Back?

the first page on google is your friend (or maybe foe)
Israelis accused of 'human shields' tactic : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/52128 70.stm
Israel's supreme court says the use of Palestinian human shields in arrest raids violates international law : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/43148 98.stm
A five-year-old boy is shot dead in Gaza as Israeli human rights activists condemn troops for the alleged use of "human shields : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/21951 55.stm
.. the young man, who was said to have had no political affiliations, was used as a "human shield" by the Israelis: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/21937 59.stm
Use of Palestinian Civilians as Human Shields by the Israeli Army: http://www.adalah.org/eng/humanshields.php
Israeli soldiers who took over the buildings used the occupants as human shield: http://www.btselem.org/english/Human_Shields/20060 720_Human_Shields_in_Beit_Hanun.asp
The Human Shields of Nazareth : http://www.antiwar.com/orig/cook.php?articleid=933 3
The Israeli army has signalled its intention to keep using Palestinian civilians as human shields in operations : http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/8431605A-2F 44-4282-8037-E8B53A529EB9.htm

I'm not seeing anything close to parity with the hundreds of Israeli civilians murdered in Palestinian terror attacks.

That's right, the numbers are not even close.

Show me Israeli teenagers blowing up Palestinian pizza restaurants or gunning down pregnant women, and I'll reconsider.

You've apparently never heard of Hebron. In any event, is the killing of civilians more acceptable to you when it's carried out by an army, as opposed to bands of teenagers?

To every argument Khalili made against killing civilians and one's self, Abu Aisheh answered with questions: Aren't we being shot down like dogs? Do you feel like a human being when the Israelis control your every move? Do you believe we have a future? If I'm going to die at their hands anyway, why shouldn't I take some of them with me?

But can you really justify their actions?
but can you justify the following:

Children have been shot in other conflicts I have covered--death squads gunned them down in El Salvador and Guatemala, mothers with infants were lined up and massacred in Algeria, and Serb snipers put children in their sights and watched them crumple onto the pavement in Sarajevo--but I have never before watched soldiers entice children like mice into a trap and murder them for sport.

Border Police Officer Forces Palestinian Resident of 'Attil to Commit Sexual Act with Donkey, in Zeita,Tulkarm District, The West Bank, June 2003

IDF Officer Etches Star of David on the Arm of Qassem 'Awisat, with Glass Shards, at Seida Checkpoint, Tulkarm district, The West Bank, 30 April, 2003

To every argument Khalili made against killing civilians and one's self, Abu Aisheh answered with questions: Aren't we being shot down like dogs? Do you feel like a human being when the Israelis control your every move? Do you believe we have a future? If I'm going to die at their hands anyway, why shouldn't I take some of them with me?

But can you really justify their actions?
but can you justify the following:

Children have been shot in other conflicts I have covered--death squads gunned them down in El Salvador and Guatemala, mothers with infants were lined up and massacred in Algeria, and Serb snipers put children in their sights and watched them crumple onto the pavement in Sarajevo--but I have never before watched soldiers entice children like mice into a trap and murder them for sport.

Border Police Officer Forces Palestinian Resident of 'Attil to Commit Sexual Act with Donkey, in Zeita,Tulkarm District, The West Bank, June 2003

IDF Officer Etches Star of David on the Arm of Qassem 'Awisat, with Glass Shards, at Seida Checkpoint, Tulkarm district, The West Bank, 30 April, 2003

Sir, your emotional rant has induced me to inform the public on the falsehood of your statements. While I do not want to change YOUR opinions, I can not allow these OPINIONS to be propagated as FACTS. As follows:

And if they weren't trying to remove israel from the face of the Earth,

If israeli settlers weren't trying to remove palestinians from THEIR land:

Total settler population in the West Bank and Gaza Strip:
1972: 1,500
1983: 29,090
1992: 109,784
2001: 213,672

Total settler population in East Jerusalem:
1972: 6,900
1992: 141,000
2000: 170,400

which is well documented by JEWISH human rights organizations:
The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories
settlers, whom even JEWS want to pull out:
Brit Tzedek v'Shalom - Jewish Alliance for Justice and Peace - for the sake of Israel's security, bring the settlers home
settlers, who sometimes aren't even Semites:
(When a delegation of rabbis travelled to Lima to convert a group of South American Indians to Judaism, they added just one condition: come and live with us in Israel. As soon as these new Jews arrived in the country, they were bussed straight to settlements in the disputed territories. )

* * * * * * *
they would be welcome to participate in the economic, social, and political makeup of the society at large...

such a change of policy is highly questionable. the opposite is taking place right now:

While the settlers benefit from an unlimited quantity of running water - including filling swimming pools and watering lawns, the Palestinian towns and villages suffer a severe shortage of running water, even for drinking and bathing.

Ever heard of Nuremberg Laws? Israeli Parliament votes to block Palestinians who marry Israelis from becoming Israeli citizens or residents,[...] supporters of bill call it necessary bulwark against infiltration by terrorists, as well as way to preserve Israel's Jewish majority; opponents call it racist measure

Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions - Israel Destroys Palestinian Infrastructure

* * * * * * *
Can't embrace my brother if he chooses to kill me and my people to get his political message across...

let us compare who is killing whom:
In the Palestinian terrorist attacks, about 920 Israelis were killed (up to 2.1.2004), and 4,400 were wounded (source: Israel's Ministry of Foreign Affairs). [...]
Following statistics of the Palestine Red Crescent Society 2,417 Palestinians were killed and 22,233 were wounded from September 29, 2000, to August 1, 2003, due to the Israeli military operations.

* * * * * * *
Better to contain and kill the MF'ers...
in the ghetto?

* * * * * * *
(In regard to removing Israel from the face of the earth, that's their STATED GOAL my friends. TAUGHT to SCHOOL CHILDREN!)

i can not verify what is beeing taught in schools, because I have never been there. have you? OTOH i can tell for sure what the Israeli public is discussing.

well, Israel is considering removing of all Palestinians into Jordan. In other countries this is called ETHNIC CLEANSING.
( King Abdullah has rejected the idea of permanently settling Palestinians outside their

Sir, your emotional rant has induced me to inform the public on the falsehood of your statements. While I do not want to change YOUR opinions, I can not allow these OPINIONS to be propagated as FACTS. As follows:

And if they weren't trying to remove israel from the face of the Earth,

If israeli settlers weren't trying to remove palestinians from THEIR land:

Total settler population in the West Bank and Gaza Strip:
1972: 1,500
1983: 29,090
1992: 109,784
2001: 213,672

Total settler population in East Jerusalem:
1972: 6,900
1992: 141,000
2000: 170,400

which is well documented by JEWISH human rights organizations:
The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories
settlers, whom even JEWS want to pull out:
Brit Tzedek v'Shalom - Jewish Alliance for Justice and Peace - for the sake of Israel's security, bring the settlers home
settlers, who sometimes aren't even Semites:
(When a delegation of rabbis travelled to Lima to convert a group of South American Indians to Judaism, they added just one condition: come and live with us in Israel. As soon as these new Jews arrived in the country, they were bussed straight to settlements in the disputed territories. )

* * * * * * *
they would be welcome to participate in the economic, social, and political makeup of the society at large...

such a change of policy is highly questionable. the opposite is taking place right now:

While the settlers benefit from an unlimited quantity of running water - including filling swimming pools and watering lawns, the Palestinian towns and villages suffer a severe shortage of running water, even for drinking and bathing.

Ever heard of Nuremberg Laws? Israeli Parliament votes to block Palestinians who marry Israelis from becoming Israeli citizens or residents,[...] supporters of bill call it necessary bulwark against infiltration by terrorists, as well as way to preserve Israel's Jewish majority; opponents call it racist measure

Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions - Israel Destroys Palestinian Infrastructure

* * * * * * *
Can't embrace my brother if he chooses to kill me and my people to get his political message across...

let us compare who is killing whom:
In the Palestinian terrorist attacks, about 920 Israelis were killed (up to 2.1.2004), and 4,400 were wounded (source: Israel's Ministry of Foreign Affairs). [...]
Following statistics of the Palestine Red Crescent Society 2,417 Palestinians were killed and 22,233 were wounded from September 29, 2000, to August 1, 2003, due to the Israeli military operations.

* * * * * * *
Better to contain and kill the MF'ers...
in the ghetto?

* * * * * * *
(In regard to removing Israel from the face of the earth, that's their STATED GOAL my friends. TAUGHT to SCHOOL CHILDREN!)

i can not verify what is beeing taught in schools, because I have never been there. have you? OTOH i can tell for sure what the Israeli public is discussing.

well, Israel is considering removing of all Palestinians into Jordan. In other countries this is called ETHNIC CLEANSING.
( King Abdullah has rejected the idea of permanently settling Palestinians outside their

> No, they just don't have their heads full of so much religious shit that they can't deal with reality.

That's right, every Jew thinks the idea of Israel being for Jews only is immoral, everyone in Israel shall have the same rights, regardless of nationality, religion or sex, etc. Oh wait, something's wrong with these links' titles ...

> "Isreal doesn't even have oil! ... "

" ... , but they do have matches", huh? Oh man, thanks, you just hit the right quote (by Ariel Sharon, I believe).

> So you admit they are stupid.

Yes they are, they didn't had a possibility nor money for a good european college, not even for a good school. The Jews aren't much brighter though.

> You shouldn't kill people because they are stupid.

Yes, you shall exploit them, am I right?

> You kill them because they are trying to kill you.

Do you realize, that this quote justifies Ukrainian nationalists who helped German Army to exterminate some thousands of Jews during Ukraine's occupation in WW2 ? And .. that's right, I wasn't talking about Palestinians, I was talking about millions of people, mostly in Ukraine and Rusiia who were killed, let starve, expelled, put in concentration camps during 20's - 40's, by orders of Jewish Communist Government. And then forgotten. I won't say these people were stupid, even if many of them couldn't read, knew no math and didn't play piano. They just weren't able to understand the principe "kill or be killed", ... before, and many of them also not after.

> The Israelis are very successful in hunting down and removing terrorists,

Which is not that hard, if you have well-trained forces and a couple of Apaches. Just bomb the approximate region and wait until the mob calms down. Dead civilians are not important.

> whereas the only thing mad palestinians is killing children in nightclubs and pizza restaurants.

You see, it's kinda hard to infiltrate a military base if you only have a bicycle, a pack of TNT on yourself and look like retarded arab. Nevertheless, whenever possible, Palestinians also attack military. If Isreal wants them to stop attacks against civilians, then just give the Palestinians enough money for proper weapons and training.

> How does this make Israel more likely to talk and sort out the whole mess, and less likely to kill terrorists (with some collatoral damage along the way)?

What would make Israel want to talk and sort out the whole mess anyway? Too bad they can't just collect them all and put them in a gas chamber - it's kind of 21st century and stuff...

> > will you be able to maintain your pride before God's face?
> No such thing as god. That's retro nonsense. There's just as much proof that the easter bunny exists.

What kind of proof would you require anyway? A big face in the sky? Or maybe a wonder or two? For easter bunny, go to supermarket and buy yourself one. The only evidence of God you can realize in this world is the faith in Him, which creates stable religion, which in turn creates stable moral norms, when it affects people over generations. People who lose the faith, begin to lose their moral and some of them begin to kill each other, because "it's normal".

> Such foul language - as befits one without a logical argument.

You right here - I'm sorry for saying that. As for "without logical argument", I will work o

Terrorists are a tiny minority but the Israelis strenghthen their hand by the way they treat Palestinians.. Their goal is basically to force them to leave..ethnic cleansing.. They have admitted this..many times.. And they have killed 4 times as many Palestinians than Palestinians have killed Israelis.. mostly civilians..children, etc.. There is no moral high ground..

Ethnic cleansing (moving people off of their land in order to replace them with another ethnic group) is illegal under international law.

Apartheid didnt fly in South Africa and it wont fly in the Middle East. That is why I suggest that any Israelis reading be nice to the Palestinians or it will come back to haunt you later. Why are they so greedy? There is enough land for both groups.. But Israel seems to want it all..

"Do onto others what you would have them do unto you" Thats the golden rule..

For some background on what is basically the big land grab see this URL - Check out the map - it speaks for itself.. You may wonder why you never saw this map before.. well, there's a reason. The US media doesnt want people to see this very basic fundamental information.. Why?

The Palestinian land is broken up into hundreds of non-contiguous little plots..with Israel holding the high ground, the aquifers, the roads, almost everything of value.. See the map at the URL below.. http://www.btselem.org/English/Publications/Summar ies/Land_Grab_Map.asp

Peace!

Did you know that the "q" in qmail stands for "queer"??? That's SO cool!!!

Top results for one-letter google searches as of Sat May 17
a : Apple
b : B'Tselem, The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the ...
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No, I'm not trolling.
Where do you take those things? 97 percent on west bank under PA control? Gimme a break. There are areas A, B and C and only area A is under full PA control.
For some reason Kofi Annan thinks different, btw. he's UN chief (maybe you need some citation or proof?)

As for 3 million people living in west bank and 1,2 million living in Gaza strip, they are NOT citizens of Israel and they have basically no rights.

This crime of being jewish on PA lands is some new kind of blood libel? Are you aware that such knowing lies can be punishable crimes? What about Ha'aretz reporter Amira Haas, who lives in occupied West bank?
Here you find last childs killed by israelis, you can search for more yourself.

The ratio of israeli vs palestinian children killed is similiar - about 1:3. For totals check Btselem.

The problem with this discussion is that one of us is underinformed or maybe just hostile. The facts I have brought are widely available and easily confirmed, but you just don't care. So if you think ignorance is strength then there's no point in discussion.