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Depends on the denomination. The Roman Catholic church (the largest single denomination of Christians in the world), for example, don't really claim it's a literal transcription - that is, that the people who wrote it heard some booming voice in the clouds and wrote things down. Instead they claim that the Bible is the "word of God" in that it was "divinely inspired". God didn't speak to the writers from a burning bush, but he "guided their hand" while they wrote it. *Lots* of ink has been spilled over the years on the subtle implications of this difference on the meaning of the Bible, relevance for free will, etc. See this bit from the Catholic Encyclopedia for the tip of the iceberg.

That's part of the "mystery of faith." Here's an apologetic. Scroll down to "Reason and Supernatural Mystery."

You've heard this same line of thought before in scientific contexts and probably agreed with it. For instance, you'll hear an astronomer offer a solution to the Fermi Paradox, that the alien activity is going on right in front of our faces (cosmically) but we can't comprehend it, any more than an ant understands that its hill is next to an interstate highway.

Or wave/particle duality. How can something be both a particle and a wave? You can get a glimpse of an idea (but this is only a metaphor to help understanding. There is no intuition in quantum mechanics). Take a cylinder and place it between a light source and the wall, and point one of the round surfaces at the light. Now look at the wall. What do you see? A circle. Now rotate the cylinder 90 degree on its axis. Now look at the wall. What do you see? A rectangle. So which is it? A circle, or a rectangle? It's both and neither, much like the way the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all one God, but distinct from each other.

Our vision of God is like a dim view of a more perfect geometry.

So, you're right. It is a gap in our understanding, but it's not because we're too dumb to understand that. We're very well aware of it. But we recognize that there are things we do not understand, and things we can probably never understand, in the same way an ant will never understand us.

".. other content inappropriate for children"

Curiously they do not block web sites of places like http://www.catholic.org/, https://www.churchofengland.org/, http://www.jewfaq.org/index.shtml, http://www.islamreligion.com/ ... all purveyors of ideas that really screw kids up: make them feel guilty of normal feelings, make them do strange things, ... If they insist on a banned list it would be good to see this sort of site added.

everyone who doesn't join your faith is doomed to eternal suffering in this world and the next, and their children and their children as well

Although so is frequently said by some Christians, the idea is not part of the doctrine and not found in the Bible either (certainly not as attributed to god or any prophets). The current Pope is on record saying the exact opposite, actually.

strong impulse to teach them

Proselytizing is one thing (though Judaism frowns even on that).

But Islam — uniquely — is not satisfied with mere teaching. Koran compels the faithful to fight non-believers (or denigrate and tax them, as a minimum). Because — uniquely — Islam was established to help create a theocratic empire (Caliphate) and justify all means used to that end...

As Truman famously said, The Buck Stops Here. The president is the head of the executive branch and the commander in chief of the armed forces. He absolutely has authority over his personal security. My opinion? Take a queue from the Queen and take public transit. Or from the Pope and walk. Even heads of states who have boots on the ground in Afghanistan fly commercial. Nothing supports a culture of fear more than a leader who doesn't have enough faith in his people to travel among them.

... issues like "dizziness, heart palpitations, chronic depression". The US RDA for vitamin D for adults is several times too low, and people in solitary confinement indoors are unlikely to be getting enough sunlight to make up the difference. The isolation itself is no doubt harmful to many people too, but the vitamin D aspect could at least be addressed easily even within the current system. The nutrition issue is even larger; see for example:
http://www.psychologytoday.com...
http://www.theguardian.com/pol...
http://www.naturalnews.com/039...

And environmental toxins contribute too:
http://www.motherjones.com/env...

Ironically, corporations get to repent by "restorative justice" (paying reparations or fixing what was broken) while real people are hit with "punitive justice".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R...

US prison population stats:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I...
"In 2008 approximately one in every 31 adults (7.3 million) in the United States was behind bars, or being monitored (probation and parole). In 2008 the breakdown for adults under correctional control was as follows: one out of 18 men, one in 89 women, one in 11 African-Americans (9.2 percent), one in 27 Latinos (3.7 percent), and one in 45 Caucasians (2.2 percent). Crime rates have increased by about 25 percent from 1988 to 2008.[18] In recent decades the U.S. has experienced a surge in its prison population, quadrupling since 1980, partially as a result of mandatory sentencing that came about during the "war on drugs." Violent crime and property crime have declined since the early 1990s.[19]"

Recent incarcerations for drone protesters, but presumably not in solitary:
http://www.syracuse.com/news/i...
http://www.syracuse.com/news/i...
http://www.syracuse.com/news/i...
http://www.veteransforpeace.or...

What a difference a nun can make even in prison:
"84-year-old nun sentenced for her anti-nuclear activism"
http://www.catholic.org/nation...
"Rice said she learned in prison to see her fellow inmates, not as perpetrators but as "victims" of a system that gave them few options. Walli says that like Rice, he spends long hours talking to inmates to "instill the idea that human life is sacred. "They know that they are the human fallout and the victims of the profiteering by the elite and top leaders of the corporations that are contracted to make the nuclear weapons. It's (the money) denied to human services that should be the priority of any government," Rice said. "

It's "thou shalt not murder,"

It's actually Hebrew that Slashdot won't reproduce, and the translation is normally held to be "Thou shalt not kill" on the basis that is what the KJV translates it as. Other more modern translations use "kill" rather than "murder". Nice selective translation, though.

No, the translation is not "normally" held to be "... kill." Especially not because of the KJV. The modern English translations, including the most popular ones, translate the word as "murder". See, for example, the New International Version, the New American Standard, the Amplified Bible, even the New King James Version. Also, an old, but literal translation, the aptly-named Young's Literal Translation, translates it as "Thou dost not murder." Take a look at the other translations on that site and note how the vast majority translate the word as "murder." Pretty much the only modern, widely-used, translation that uses "kill" is the New Jerusalem Bible.

And FYI, the "Hebrew that Slashdot won't reproduce" can be romanized as "rasah", a term that while hard to pin down the exact meaning of, scholars generally agree means more than simply "kill". This site has some discussion of it.

It's also notable that the Bible explicitly mentions the death penalty as acceptable: "Anyone who kills a person is to be put to death as a murderer only on the testimony of witnesses. But no one is to be put to death on the testimony of only one witness." -- Numbers 35:30. So perhaps that will refresh the memory of the AC a few posts up who "[didn't] recall any exceptions for "Oh but if the other guy killed someone else that's O.K, you know?"

Father Zakaria Botros is enlightening to many. . . .

Michael Coren & Father Zakaria - about islam 1
Michael Coren & Father Zakaria - about islam 2

including to many who live in the Middle East . . . .

, SPLA North
Father Zakaria: Islamic Scholars Hide Muhammad's Misbehavior

This is why Al Qaida put a $60,000,000 bounty on his head.

People react to the culture in which they're brought up. And even in the Middle East, it's a small proportion of Muslims acting in the way rightists here want to depict all Muslims as.

Yes, this is clearly a problem of "rightest" depiction of the actions of Islamists.

Bounty on Salman Rushdie increased to $3.3 million - Iran will pursue makers of anti-Islam film: vice-presidenthor

Pakistani minister puts bounty on anti-Islam filmmaker's head

Egypt's president elect Mohammed Morsi says he will try to free Blind Sheikh

Mohammed Morsi, Egypt's president elect, on Friday appealed for the release of one of Osama bin Laden's closest associates, a call sure to alarm critics worried about the direction he will take the country

Interview with Father Zakaria Botros, 'Radical Islam's Bane' - An interview with the Coptic Orthodox Priest with a 60 million dollar bounty on his head from al Qaeda.
More: Michael Coren Interviews Father Zakaria Botros 'Radical Islam's Bane'

Allied Menace

"Here are two brother countries, united like a single fist," said socialist Hugo Chávez during a visit to Tehran last November, celebrating his alliance with Islamist Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Che Guevara's son Camilo, who also visited Tehran last year, declared that his father would have "supported the country in its current struggle against the United States." They followed in the footsteps of Fidel Castro, who in a 2001 visit told his hosts that "Iran and Cuba, in cooperation with each other, can bring America to its knees." For his part, Ilich Ramírez Sánchez ("Carlos the Jackal") wrote in his book L'islam révolutionnaire ("Revolutionary Islam") that "only a coalition of Marxists and Islamists can destroy the United States."

As an atheist, I have no dog in this fight, except one: I want to live in a peaceful world.

You want to live in a peaceful world, and al-Qaida and assorted Islamists want you to live in a Muslim world. I expect that neither of you will get your wish unless enough people prefer any peace, even the peace of the graveyard, or the "peace" of slavery, to the long term struggle to defense genuine peace a freedom.

Iran has said, many times (e.g. last month http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=44676), that they want and intend to cause "the death of all Jews and the destruction of Israel".

Bizarre. If they want to cause "the death of all Jews" you'd think they'd start with the ones in Iran wouldn't you?

Ah, the original source of the "Catholic Online" craziness is Reza Kahlili in World Net Daily - http://www.wnd.com/2012/02/ayatollah-kill-all-jews-annihilate-israel/.

It's not the one I read (I think I read either New york times or Forbes), but content is 90% similar:

http://www.catholic.org/technology/story.php?id=44500

There are several others
http://open.salon.com/blog/steve_klingaman/2012/01/25/lets_not_kid_ourselves_about_manufacturing_jobs
http://gizmodo.com/5878209/why-apple-doesnt-make-the-iphone-in-america

--Coder

They are just not encouraged to THINK about it.

Really?... Start here if you'd like. It illustrates internal debates beginning way back with St. Augustine, and continues today. Google can turn up thousands more.

Hell, The US Catholic Church can't even decide which translation to use! ...and note the last link, an informal guide to choosing. I'll expand the relevant bit:

"At Catholic Answers we are often asked which Bible version a person should choose. This is an important question about which Catholics need to be informed. Some have been given very little help about how to pick a Bible translation, but keeping in mind a few tips will make the decision much easier. There are two general philosophies translators use when they do their work: formal or complete equivalence and dynamic equivalence. Formal equivalence translations try to give as literal a translation of the original text as possible. Translators using this philosophy try to stick close to the originals, even preserving much of the original word order. Literal translations are an excellent resource for serious Bible study. Sometimes the meaning of a verse depends on subtle cues in the text; these cues are only preserved by literal translations. "

The only universal recommendation I could Google up is that literal translations are better than dynamic (pre-interpreted to make more readable) translations. So, err, for an organization that you purport to be all big on control, you'd think that they would not only have one translation, but that they would recommend one which was dynamic (that is, pre-interpreted), no?

As for the Index Libororum Prohibitorum, its purpose has changed dramatically over the years, and for the past and present centuries, holds little if any of what you're representing it as. You may want to actually look up what it really is (link provided for convenience).

the inflation-adjusted median income has gone down by 17%

No, it hasn't.

Whoops! That's right. I meant that the income share of the bottom 90% of families (ie, just about all of us here) has gone down by 17%.

Here is the theoretical justification for the laffer curve: At a 0% tax rate, no revenue is generated. At a 100% tax rate, no one works. Somewhere in between is higher, therefore someone in the middle it must have a downward slope.

I agree. And it seems that, after that is established, every Republican I talk to waves their hands in the air and claims that it's just obvious that we're well in the downward-slope region.

I don't buy it.

Something else worth considering. A miniscule increase in year to year economic growth accumulates geometrically over time.

I don't agree. This isn't a simple algebra-II problem where we're calculating compound interest or bacteria multiplying in a dish and things just keep multiplying over and over.

Eventually, you're going to reach the point where everybody's working and they can't make (TV's | houses | cars | lattes ) any faster. This is what boggled me about the dot-com boom; everybody thought that the "new economy" was going to make everything super-cheap to make. But I couldn't shake the fact that it still takes just as many swings of a hammer to build a house.

Unless they somehow make: 1) the house take fewer hammer-swings to build, 2) the hammer-swinger accept less money per swing of the hammer, or 3) somehow lower the cost of the materials, then the price of a house isn't going to go down. But #3 is actually just #1 and #2 applied to the materials supplier.

Now, #2 doesn't really help the economy because the hammer-swinger is going to have less money to spend on other goods. So, the only thing that really helps the economy is #1: making it take fewer hammer swings. The economists' term for this is "worker productivity". Now, the dot-com boom did give us some productivity gains in the form of just-in-time inventorying, smoother channels for ordering/tracking/paying, etc... but it didn't do much to make houses take fewer or smaller nails.

So, anyway... the long and short of it is: I don't agree that we can make tweaks that give us miniscule bumps in the GDP and that they will just keep compounding geometrically without bound. The GDP has a ceiling, determined by worker productivity (ie, how efficiently the worker can make their widget), availability of workers, demand for the widgets, etc. Cyclically, we get politicians who try to squeeze out more GDP with tweaks to the system and then we get corrections like we have now.

Really? Because the Vatican says otherwise. So does the CIA.

Actually, if you want to talk about across border propaganda, the current situation between the two Koreas fits perfectly.

On Wednesday, South Korean civic groups launched leaflets critical of the North’s communist’s regime, near the North Korean border to denounce the sinking of a South Korean warship in March.

Seoul resumed blaring propaganda broadcasts into its northern nemesis for the first time in six years

Eleven loudspeakers have already been installed along the border, and South Korea is attempting to set up electronic displays, according to the statement.

Really, imagine if North Korea had the internet or...even radio. Instead of just sending out crazy loud shit across their border, they could just broadcast radio signals or facebook pages instead.

The only thing I have against China being pissy about it is that, quite possibly, the unrest isn't stirred up from outside the country but is an accurate reflection of the internet using citizens (are they citizens?) within their country.

>For example, consider that you (probably) think that hanging someone is wrong. There's this historical character X, who is an amazing guy, a paragon of virtue, and he also cleaned up his area by hanging a lot of people. You'd claim this guy was scum?

Actually - I'm in favor of the death penalty. The problem with your proposal is that it means justice is contextual, it can't be. Justice must be permanent thing, LAWS aren't always just, hence they need to be flexible and adaptable, but there was NEVER a time when owning slaves was NOT wrong, it just wasn't always illegal.
I'm sure if you went back and asked any of the slaves from the cultures where it was acceptable THEY would not consider it moral or okay... context of the time or not, justice is firm and fixed. This presents no problems, because justice is incredibly simple.

>"God, save us from the Vikings" mean anything to you? I'm talking about the context of the time, not their individual morality.

All morality is individual, and at the time of the Vikings - what they did was NOBLE in the culture and context of the Norway of that time, and considered scum in most other places. So whose context wins ?

>And again, your entire rant about individuals and soldiers being haunted has absolutely nothing to do with the actual Christian doctrine regarding war. I'd summarize, but it's probably better for you to just read the official policy for yourself:
http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=12206

Right and Catholic doctrine is official Christian doctrine now ? You ever heard of something called the reformation. Practically EVERY other branch of christianity disagrees with the most important parts of that doctrine (like the infallibility of the pope).
I even gave you an EXAMPLE of a well known and notable branch that is entirely pacifist in doctrine.

>There's a really serious difference between a love for peace, and refusing to stop a rapist from attacking your daughter.

Strawman attack - I specifically stated that defending yourself and your loved ones with minimum required force is acceptable - you twist it as if I was proposing this. But I don't believe organised war is ever the answer, it's never just. My points about those soldiers being haunted is - they know it was wrong, because it was unjust, it's never any other way.
Sometimes, it may be the only possible way forward, but that just proves how UNJUST humanity is, it doesn't make the war just. The sad thing is, even if a war was one day fought that was so perfect as to be just (something I deem logically impossible) it would STILL not be justifiable. Because the price of war is pretty much without exception far darker and more evil than the nobility of the cause can justify.
Essentially, the ends never justify the means. When the means is war, it doesn't even add up.

I'm ending this now. It's useless to debate with somebody who genuinely believes that killing other people for wearing the wrong flag on their uniforms can ever be okay.

>>I studied history as well as an extra major - and you're just plain wrong. Nobody can be free of bias, it's a basic fact of human mental development, one of those biasses is our moral view - you cannot, EVER switch it off. So yes, impossible.

I'm talking about judging characters in the past using the context of our modern times. This you CAN do, and I work in US History these days, and work with a lot of historians, and they all agree on this point.

For example, consider that you (probably) think that hanging someone is wrong. There's this historical character X, who is an amazing guy, a paragon of virtue, and he also cleaned up his area by hanging a lot of people. You'd claim this guy was scum?

>>If we do that, then Vikings raping and pillaging cannot be judged against because it was NOBLE in THEIR morality ?

"God, save us from the Vikings" mean anything to you? I'm talking about the context of the time, not their individual morality.

>>Yes, Christians weren't expansionist at all...

I didn't say they weren't expansionist. I think it's a mistake to equate the 1000 year history of Muslim expansionism, conquest, and conversion by the sword with anything the Christians did, including the Crusades (which were the biggest Christian effort that could be labeled this way).

Probably the closest analogy you could find in Chrisendom would be the various Khanates, but they were definitely not expanding to spread Christianity.

And again, your entire rant about individuals and soldiers being haunted has absolutely nothing to do with the actual Christian doctrine regarding war. I'd summarize, but it's probably better for you to just read the official policy for yourself:
http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=12206

In a nutshell, it is a moral evil to be an ultimate pacifist, and there's no justification in the Bible to be that way. There's a really serious difference between a love for peace, and refusing to stop a rapist from attacking your daughter.

Because genetic manipulation is a moral sin. http://www.catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=5429 I feel bad for the Catholics that have to take insulin . . . .

Hey guys, I dont like Alan Keyes either but thats a low blow.

Even THIS is more scientific than "intelligent design"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_D._Unwin ...I mean, come on, the friggen VATICAN finds "intelligent design" not only an insult to science, but an insult to GOD.

http://www.catholic.org/national/national_story.ph p?id=18503

this is, for certain, an understatement. the director of the vatican observatory, speaking on behalf of the church's scientific understanding, makes clear the position the church takes on science, and specifically, evolution. he actually tears into a "rogue bishop" for making statements otherwise. the vatican even goes so far as to denounce ID being taught in the classroom. seems the catholic church may have done something right.

Yeah, if you thought the coeliacs had trouble, wait and see what the catholics will do with these guys!

He was my favorite hacker!

It also might help if a certain powerful, ubiquitous church would change their ridiculuous stand on birth control.

I'm serious. I was brought up a catholic, and their stance on condom use (that it is a mortal sin) is utter lunacy. Yeah, that's great that you provide care for nearly 25% of AIDS patients. You know what would be better? 25% *fewer* AIDS patients. People not getting sick beats caring for sick people *every day of the week.*

Christianity forsakes icons, perhaps rightly, as they distract one from one's relationship with one's God, and their spiritual emotional connection.

There are over a billion people calling themselves Chrisitans, and they adhere to thousands of different denominations and sects. The generalizations you can make about all Christians are very few. You certainly can't claim that all, or even most, Christians revile icons. It's particularly stupid to make this statement in connection with a movie made by a guy who adheres to a form of Christianity that revels in icons, about the iconic moment in Chrisitian history.

.budhhism.god
.catholic.god
.hindu.god
.islam.god
.jewish.god
.scientology.god
.taoist.god
.zen.god

The Martyr Award or the like.

Oh, they already did that. Too bad it hasn't been hip since the sixties, but hey, retro is in these days.

If you can handle satire, see my suffer the Usenetter prayer.

If you can handle satire, see my suffer the Usenetter prayer.

to say your prayers before clicking the link, and you will be absolved.

That's fundy Protestantism, actually. Jesuits, to name but one group in the One True Church, have always cherished science as a way to understand Creation and marvel at the power of God.www.va
--

Nice try, but the majority (60%) of the energy from el Sol is IR (Infrared Radiation), which is not blocked out by clouds. You know IR has the type of radiation used by your remote controls. You can't see it, but it is a significant part of the spectrum. The problem is that IR is kept in by clouds when it is re-radiated. The main indicator of this re-radiation of IR is night time temperatures. This is the greenhouse effect.

You should be worried. Actually, when our generation (currently 20 - 30) is about 60, the weather and environment could be really dicey. My hope is that hydrogen will become the major energy source in the next 10 years so that greenhouse gas production drops significantly (especially for automobiles - a major cause of carbon release). If this doesn't happen, you better start praying.

--

"When I'm singing a ballad and a pair of underwear lands on my head, I hate that. It really kills the mood."

I have never read the Confessions, but it is my understanding that they detail his early life which was quite raunchy. He was a big sinner turned big saint.

From http://saints.catholic.org

St. Augustine of Hippo is the patron of brewers because of his conversion from a former life of loose living, which included parties, entertainment, and worldly ambitions. His complete turnaround and conversion has been an inspiration to many who struggle with a particular vice or habit they long to break.

"Give me chastity and continence, but not yet." - Saint Augustine (354-430)

Anyone interested in looking up patron saints should try saints.catholic.org -- it contains an index of the officially-recognized patron saints, plus some good background information.

I will quote their explaination of patron saints here:

What is a patron saint?

Patron saints are chosen as special protectors or guardians over areas of life. These areas can include occupations, illnesses, churches, countries, causes -- anything that is important to us.

The earliest records show that people and churches were named after apostles and martyrs as early as the fourth century. Recently, the popes have named patron saints but patrons can be chosen by other individuals or groups as well.

Patron saints are often chosen today because an interest, talent, or event in their lives overlaps with the special area. For example, Francis of Assisi loved nature and so he is patron of ecologists. Francis de Sales was a writer and so he is patron of journalists and writers. Clare of Assisi was named patron of television because one Christmas when she was too ill to leave her bed she saw and heard Christmas Mass -- even though it was taking place miles away. Angels can also be named as patron saints.

A patron saint can help us when we follow the example of that saint's life and when we ask for that saint's intercessory prayers to God.

Some things to note -- the news article simply mentioned a popular movement to have the Vatican declare St. Isidore the patron saint of the Internet. These popular movements happen all the time within the Roman Catholic Church. Some receive official approval, some do not.

Of course, any Catholic (or anyone else) can request the intercession of any saint in any matter. No one needs to wait for Vatican approval.

Personally, while I can see why St. Isidore would show an interest in the Internet, there are some other saints I would nominate:

• St. Gabriel (already mentioned) -- the patron of communications workers
• St. Jude -- patron of hopeless causes :^)
• St. Jerome -- my favorite candidate for patron of the Internet. He is the patron saint of librarians. He was also a prolific writer of letters and tracts, and was a ... vigorous ... debator. He had flaming down to an art form centuries before the Internet was invented, and I believe he would be very much at home here.