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Finnish Politician Suggests Embedding Chips In Citizens To Protect the Welfare State
New submitter janit writes that social benefits to Finnish citizens living outside of Finland have in recent days been the cause of controversy, and links to an article which suggests just how much of a controversy: A politician from the True Finns Party, Pasi Mäenranta, is also worried about the abuse of the benefits. He published a post on Facebook, where he suggests that all Finnish citizens leaving the country be embedded with an identification chip. Sounds like a parallel system might be a popular idea with some U.S. presidential candidates, too.
About google etc...
So, It doesn't get to chip me. In other words over my dead body...
I guess we need a second installment of 1984 as the pace of ideas from authoritarian control freaks have exceeded Orwell's wildest nightmares.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
The opposite of what America does!
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Sorry, but I've got a GFY for him and suggest road gravel and lye.
Revelations 13:16-17:
And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name...
Just sayin', regardless of reality or fantasy, when your policy suggestion is basically the exact thing the devil does during the "end times," you might have a tough sell there.
We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
You're smarter than that, Finland.
>> (ID chipping) might be a popular idea with some U.S. presidential candidates, too
Do you have something to back that up? Did the Clintons go on the record back in the Hillarycare days on this or something?
There are much easier ways to make the welfare system well financed and sustainable than to get a chip into people.
This seems to be a non sequitur argument which is set to frame the political discussion in a way that it becomes a legitimate policy option.
Especially US presidential candidates....
--PM
Sounds like a parallel system might be a popular idea with some U.S. presidential candidates, too.
I'm genuinely curious. I know the knee-jerk reaction is going to be "Teh Republicanz!", but I haven't heard any suggestion from any Dem or Rep that they want to introduce this. National ID cards? Sure, there are some politicians spouting that, but chipping people like dogs is a step beyond that.
Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
Wait...are you implying that chips are for cows?
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
All the "chip" technology is moving to China. They own IBM servers, laptops, and much of all computer fabrication in the world. To roll out to the travelling civilian population means it isn't the 1-2 bleeding edge samples, but is instead commodity hardware.
This is a great way to backdoor their operatives into Finland, or the US, or really anywhere. It also gives any traveller a giant target - want to find and kill an American abroad - use chip based selection.
Suggestion: Go ask the US national labs how they feel about smartphones - especially something like the iPhone. If it isn't' singing aria's about its securability - then it is a bad idea to put its dumber cousin into a person.
He is using several arguments: we could track terrorists (== people going to Syria), we could find easily people in natural catastrophes. I think he missed one of the advantages. If everyone, including children, has a gps chip, and the data about location is stored for a reasonable amount of time (let's say 50 years, but more is possible) we will be able to find possible pedophiles if a children complains, even 50 years later!
While Marlin Perkins sits back in his Mutual of Omaha office, Jim Fowler is out in the helicopter shooting herds of Finns with tranquillizer darts and tagging them with chips after they collapse.
Way to treat people like animals. Why don't we just tattoo them, and make them wear armbands? Oh wait...
Left MS Windows for Linux Mint and never looked back!
Vote for Bernie in 2016!
The Finns Party (this is the current English name of the party!) politicians are notorious for posting stupid shit on Facebook. A few weeks ago one of their politician declared a "war on multiculturalism" on saturday wee hours and that caused a fucking massive controversy and spawned demonstrations.
The Finns party are known for their radical stances on various subjects, so this should be considered too when evaluating these posts.
I mean, Allen B. West is a well known Republican.
How about a different source?
(BTW, I am not a Republican)
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Finn here.
He's a municipal "politician", with no chance of being elected to parliament.
He has been appropriately ridiculed nationally, apparently it's time he was ridiculed internationally too. Have at it.
And so it begins.
We play the game with the bravery of being out of range
You can embed a chip into me. But, it has to come as part of a bionic implant that gives me superhuman abilities.
My Citizen's Dividend plan has the following eligibility: all natural-born, resident, American citizens over the age of 18 receive the full Dividend.
If you weren't born here, you don't get it. This prevents an influx of gold-digging first-generation immigrants from coming to America for the free money.
If you aren't living in America, its territories, its military bases, its naval ships, or in active military deployment, you're not resident and you don't get shit. You left the country; we'll pay you to come back.
Kids don't get shit, either.
The primary risk control of the second-generation risks is a vestigial legacy welfare system: although unemployment, HUD vouchers, and food stamps mainly go away (and Social Security effectively expands), a tiny portion of those state-run welfare systems (probably consolidated into a single department, since even die hard bureaucrats aren't that ridiculous) remains running to provide welfare services to immigrants and families. This avoids paying everyone $4000 per year per child, which would have to be more money than 99% of families strictly need per child, meaning 99% of families have more spending money if they pop out welfare babies; the legacy systems hand out shit like EBT, so you can buy your kid food while we don't give you extra money for video games and drugs.
Why pay your citizens when they're not resident? If they're not resident, you shouldn't tax them; if you're not taxing their income--that is, if they both have income *and* aren't subjected to taxation--why are you providing them benefits? I write the social contract quite fragile, so you don't get benefit even if you're taxed *if* you just moved here from elsewhere, and so you don't get benefit if you leave the reach of taxes. That's harsh for some, but stabilizes the system for the vast majority; your country isn't 1/4 first-generation immigrants and half your citizens don't live outside the country (and you wouldn't have the tax basis to pay them all a welfare benefit if they did).
Leaving your country is a risk. You follow it when the opportunity risk is bigger than the threat risk.
Support my political activism on Patreon.
a passport in terms of the security it provides for "the state"? Do you think that people won't be stealing/selling the chips to others who want to be identified as Finnish citizens? Do you think that a minor surgical procedure that can be performed in any alley is going to be more secure than a printed document?
His political career is finnish.
Thank you. I'll be here all week. Try the veal.
This is just a high-tech version of a universal ID system. That is what we need to oppose since you can easily extend the concept to allow for non-invasive natural ID technologies (aka biometrics) to become the "mark". That and universal surveillance.
How about we punish people who abuse the welfare system with blacklisting from it? In the US, our Office of the Inspector General for Social Security found that the Social Security Administration was committing black letter of the law violations on about 25% of the Social Security Disability payments it was awarding. That means the floor for how much corruption is 25% of all transfer payments. Send the employees involved to prison and blacklist the fraudulent recipients from receiving it, even if later they end up needing it after all. Cruel? You bet. That's a feature in dealing with welfare cheats. If they're going to cheat the current recipients who need it and the tax payers, then by God society isn't going to have a wad of cash ready for when they do need it.
"The party combines left-wing economic policies[16] with conservative social values, socio-cultural authoritarianism, and ethnic nationalism."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finns_Party
Seriously Finland? 17% of you think this is a good thing? Most of us out there would like to see left-wing social values combined with conservative money spending, and just forget the rest.
Yikes...
... now I understand Linus.
So stopping welfare abuse is protecting the welfare state? So conservatives are trying to protect the welfare state when they claim their actions are to curb abuses, that never really curb abuses.
... Europe considers implementing a new chip-in-Finn system!
It's not like it's unreported or tinfoil hat. It's straight up relevant counter points!
BTW, chipping isn't the right idea either.
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I'm all for embedding chips in politician to protect the state... oh, wait ...
Then require the ex-pats to register with their local consulate or the nearest consulate or embassy that does business on behalf of Finland, and set up a regular appointment schedule that they have to keep in order to keep receiving benefits. Also consider the nature of the financial institutions that the government is willing to direct-deposit to, such that they have to be banks that don't work with groups like ISIS.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
As long as all the politicians get one first :D
Our own elected representatives are the absolute poster child of welfare. Considering how much they actually work vs what their financial and retirement compensation pays out, I would say the ER's are pretty much pot, meet kettle here.
Chip every one of them and anytime they decide not to show up for a vote, or are out campaigning instead of doing their damn job, no pay for jhou that day :D
"Control" makes it sound almost benign. "Those selfish bastards are trying to control us." That's something you can actually relate to as a human being, even if you oppose it. After all, it happens in the workplace every day.
Unfortunately, the reality is much less human. It's about ownership. There is only one reason to imbed a tracking chip in another living being: because you own it. Control may be the objective, but ownership is the relation which makes it possible, whether that ownership is announced outright (as in totalitarian states) or obfuscated via the political system (as in democratic states).
In any event, if a human being can legally force another human being to accept a tracking chip, then the only rational description of this relationship (from above, so to speak) is that the first human being owns the second.
I don't believe an update is needed, because the tyrants don't have new ideas or plans. The implementation of the ideas is being closer to a reality does not make it a new idea.
-The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
Let's face it, the Bible is allegory and the Social Security number is the number you fear. You are marked with it at birth, and though it may not appear physically on your skin, it is embeded in your mind, and written by (in) your dominant (right) hand every time you complete a business transaction. It is essentially a permanent number which identifies you and is almost impossible to change. You are taxed through it, every business is tracked by it, every significant financial transaction requires it - to buy a house, get a car, apply for government help, collect disability or retirement benefits, even to sign up for tickets to the Masters golf tournament.
To not see that the beast has already taken over and given to embed a number in everyone is to be blind to what has already occurred. The chip isn't the problem, the chip is just a convenience. It's your participation in the entire last century of society that dooms you to hell.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
I'll die of starvation or worse on the street rather than take THE MARK OF THE BEAST when it comes. Loyalty to God is above all else.
> he suggests that all Finnish citizens leaving the country be embedded with an identification chip.
Passports already carry a mandatory chip. Thus finnish people traveling outside the European Union are already chipped in a way, but their passports can become lost or stolen and re-used for illegal activities.
If dog can be micro-chipped without ethical problem, humans could be, too.
Politicians need to be tagged and monitored. Bonus points if you can build remote shock capability into the tags.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Scandinavian welfare states evolved from the traditional communitarian cultures of these countries. Within this culture, the Lutheran moral code promotes helping each other out in time of need while stigmatizing freeloading.
But now Europe as a whole is facing an uncontrollable, Arizona-style flood of refugees who are not part of this culture and who do not feel restrained by the Lutheran moral code. Now Finland has its first Joe Arpaio.
To paraphrase a known formula:
"Here in Finland we have this thing called 'idiotic politicians' "
Surely not constrained into Finland only, but this is just a lot of noise from a representative of a party that has been a magnet for extremists and only recently has started to clean up its act to become a relatively worthy political force.
Will probably splinter into 2-3 groups due to the pains associated with decency...
Surely not worth /., even in its current, sordid state...
Typical retail clerk, probably per store policy, in a power outage will be to say "Can't do it." Can't/won't take cash because "the computers are down". You can tote up the costs and add the tax and have exact change, but they still won't make the effort to accept it because "the computers are down".
the True Finns Party
That was the giveaway for me.
He advocating a Citizen's Dividend of 17%. 17% of what I'm not sure, but the general idea of a citizen's dividend is that profits from government own commons, like oil drilling permits and royalities, mineral rights, timber rights, should be charged and paid out to citizens directly instead of going into government's general funds.
They want to detect Finns leaving the country at border crossings so as not to fund expatriates? Good luck with that. There are too many non monitored points one can cross the border and I doubt the RFID chips will be worth a damn once the people are out of range.
Controlling who has access to bank accounts and from where might be a better aproach. Auto deposit of benefit checks could be cut off if the account is accessed from overseas for an extended period of time.
Have gnu, will travel.
This "politician" hails from a party known in Finland as: The Hineys.
That should tell you how their views are generally regarded.
To all politicians that think chipping citizens is a good idea: Fuck you.
Why not just extend welfare protections to everyone? If everyone is entitled to social security, you limit the types of abuse. The wealthy would then make up the difference with taxes.
..and that response is: Fuck you, asshole. How about we 'embed' our collective boots in your ass, jerk? Fucking politicians, why do we even tolerate them!?
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
the Lutheran moral code promotes helping each other out in time of need
I like to help others in their time of need too! Let's mug someone and give the proceeds to charity!
They want their logical fallacy back.
"A politician from the True Finns Party, Pasi Mäenranta..."
I do not receive any social benefits from Finland but if they even thought about chipping my parent for receiving pension that she worked hard for when our family lived in Finland, that person trying that would lose their life very slowly. We are humans not cattle.
No worries, ha
The first thing I thought of when I read this were the numbers that the Nazis tattooed prisoners in death camps with.
It amazes me how a politician would think its OK to even suggest this, and how he can even still keep his job.
If we have a jobless economy, cashless is the natural result.
Both halves of the one party system want control over us.
Whether it is the RINO party or the Leftocrat party.
Or did you forget ObamaDontCare which forces people to buy insurance they cannot afford or else they get fined, or punish nuns for not providing class-1 carcinogens to their employees. Leftocrats big time.
Stop being a partisan hack. Use your brain. Both halves are corrupt.
After he had one implanted, we can discuss it.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
If no one scans it? OK, great, put an RFID chip in a person so they can receive State welfare while living outside the State. What difference does it make? The checks are direct deposited, who verifies the person's identity when they are /outside/ the country? Seems the simple solution is to not offer welfare to citizens who choose to not live in Finland.
As an American living outside the USA, I can't even get a bank account from most banks because of the ridiculous reporting requirements (if they have even 1 customer with US citizenship, the entire bank becomes subject to a bunch of extra rules). I not only have to continue filing taxes every year even though I work in a foreign country (something unique to America and only a couple other countries) but I have to also file, separately, an FBAR every year, telling them about every bank account I have access to that ever had $10,000+ in it during the year (despite the fact they already know about it because of the filing requirements posed on banks).
Small boys with a predilection for building protocol droids using home robot kits and pod racing will start developing a scanner to find the embedded chips in their mother's bodies to liberate them.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
McVeigh complained that the Army had implanted a microchip into his buttocks so that the government could keep track of him. [Ref 1]
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
new ways to dig up dirt on and discredit opponents of the state, even if you have to make it up.
You can have a welfare state
Or
You can have open immigration.
You cannot have both.
Personally, I'd be happier with open immigration and no welfare state. Just me. But everyone is addicted to the welfare so that means immigration has to be tightly controlled.
And here someone accuses me of not being politically correct. Politically correct is frequently idiotic. You cannot have open immigration and a welfare state. I'm not even going to explain why... its self evident. And that fact that pointing out the obvious there is politically incorrect should be a wake up call to believers in political correctness that the whole framework is useless.
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
From a long ignored book - the Book of Revelation: Chapter 13 verses 16 & 17 "He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name". We have choice to embed the chip on the right hand or forehead.
...as prophesized
The welfare state is not a goal of itself, or should not be. This looks like the time to start breaking down the welfare state, if this is what is needed to keep it working.
Thank you, Bradley Manning, Edward Snowden and so many others, for courageously defending humanity, my freedom and more!