Slashdot Mirror

It causes lung conditions in smokers, heart problems in obese people and a very long list of other unlikely symptoms.

In case it wasn't already clear, that was sarcasm and claims of infrasound illnesses are bullshit.

True enough. Scientists have been fighting fake news for decades. Peter Sinclare documents the birth of a climate denial meme here: https://youtu.be/khikoh3sJg8 . The meme was picked up and echoed by the supposedly legitimate media despite the fact a cursory review of the source material would quickly dispel the myth.

It's no wonder there is such a disparity between the public perception of the scientific consensus and the actual scientific consensus.. How could the general public be expected to understand the basic science when the media isn't even bothered to perform a quick source check.

temperature recording stations, which have never been a constant, and you rely on multimillion dollar satellites

The satellites are also not constant. You have to adjust for orbital decay, diurnal cycle, remove stratospheric signal, accommodate for sensor degridation, and you need to stitch data from multiple satellites. On top of that, satellites don't measure temperature, they measure radiance which needs to be reinterpreted as temperature using a model. Yes, they are very expensive, but that doesn't really mean that they are infallible or somehow a gold standard. Even Carl Mears who develops the RSS satellite data set says he trusts surface temperature measurements much more than the satellite models. Watch the video in this link: http://climatecrocks.com/2016/...

... I was only partly wrong about the NATO rounds. ... I wasn't wrong, my information was just old. ... [Jane Q. Public, 2014-08-27]

Condescendingly lecturing a veteran like this was wrong: "Bullshit, dude. Maybe where your tour was... Just plain bullshit. ... Give up, man. You are trying to argue with someone who knows what she's [she's?!?] talking about. ... Jeez, dude. Do you even read your own bullshit? ... You may know more than I do about what the military is currently doing, but I do know something about 5.56 ballistics, thank you very fucking much. ... maybe you know more about what the military is doing these days, but if that's what they're doing, they're being just plain stupid. ..."

... So sure, I've made some small errors. And admitted them when I did. But that is only a minority of links above, which you are apparently trying to claim are all "nonsense". Like the beta decay: after some initial confusion I asked how the oscillations take place, and someone answered. I admitted that I was wrong. ... [Jane Q. Public, 2014-08-27]

No, after delt0r answered, you insisted he must not have understood your point. After I repeated delt0r's point, you claimed that you had got yourself sorted out already and accused me of butting in and insulting you.

You've repeated this pattern ad nauseum. After your neutrino rant, you repeatedly claimed that I missed where you admitted you were wrong and asked me "why didn't you bother to repeat the part...?" when I actually had repeated that part and responded to it.

In fact, the more I read of these old streams, the more I've found where I was actually correct. (Like the one on bicycle stability for instance.) I have a copy of that paper right here and it says I was correct. ... [Jane Q. Public, 2014-08-27]

It's more likely that your Sauron-class Morton's demon told you that it says you were correct. Just like you've insisted you were still correct about punctuation despite never providing sentences with the plurals of i, a, and u.

... YOUR problem is that you claim these things are nonsense, but you haven't disproved a single one of them. Why not? ... in a lot of it I wasn't wrong at all, you just think I was. ... [Jane Q. Public, 2014-08-27]

Because you're galloping faster than any Gish Gallop I've ever seen, and because despite your protests you seldom accept refutations for longer than about 5 minutes anyway.

... One last thing, to anybody else who has bothered to wade through a

My point is that you've been spreading nonsense like a firehose for years, and each time your Sauron-class Morton's demon convinces you that you're right and the other person isn't very good at refutation. This doesn't just apply to your nonsense about climate change, dark matter, neutrino oscillation, the Casimir effect and Maxwell's equations, creationists, Obama birthers and 9/11 Truthers.

It also applies to your nonsense about conservation of energy, beta decay, quantum computing, nuclear isomers, Cherenkov radiation, virtual particles, infinities, string theory, cold fusion, R o s s i ' s E - C a t L E N R h o a x, peltier coolers, GPS, bicycle stability, control theory, hyperbolic trajectories,

We already are doing something about climate change! The price of solar is plummeting and some are suggesting that it will be a disruptive technology on the same order as the internet:

the tipping point will arrive around 2020. At that point, investing in a home solar system with a 20-year life span, plus some small-scale home battery technology and an electric car, will pay for itself in six to eight years for the average consumer in Germany, Italy, Spain, and much of the rest of Europe. Crucially, this math holds even without any government subsidies for solar power. - http://climatecrocks.com/2014/...

http://climatecrocks.com/2011/...
"It’s important to note, Roy Spencer is MOST famous for being wrong – wrong in the the very areas that should be his area of greatest strength and expertise."
http://ourchangingclimate.word...
John Christy, Richard McNider and Roy Spencer trying to overturn mainstream science by rewriting history and re-baselining graphs
http://www.realclimate.org/ind...
"So here’s what Roy did. He took two indices of interannual variability: the Southern Oscillation (SOI) index, which is a proxy for El Nino, and the Pacific Decadal Oscillation Index (PDOI). He formed an ad-hoc weighted sum of these indices,and then multiplied by an ad-hoc scaling factor to turn the resulting time series into a time series of radiative forcing in Watts per square meter. Then he used that time series to drive a simple linear globally averaged mixed layer ocean model incorporating a linearized term representing heat loss to space. And voila, look what comes out of the oven!"

Again, obviously you can't recognize that your accusations are baseless, even though you reasonably should have known that.

This would be funny if it weren't such utter bullshit. We JUST had an exchange about that, and you admitted that my comments weren't "baseless". But now you make the same accusation again. Which is it? What are you trying to claim? [Jane Q. Public]

Link to the exchange with that admission, because it sounds like you're talking to imaginary voices again. Yet again, obviously you can't recognize that your accusations are baseless, even though you reasonably should have known that. I've been consistently saying that your accusations of fraudulent bullshit lies are baseless, and that you reasonably should have known that.

I am a person using a pseudonym, just as you are. I am no more a liar than you are. From the evidence, in fact, I'd guess I'm a good bit less of one. ... You haven't been able to demonstrate even one instance of my actually lying. So stuff it up there where the sun doesn't shine, as they say.

Again, you're a man named Lonny Eachus dishonestly posing as a woman on the internet. Unlike most of the misinformation you spew, this point is so simple and non-technical that your Sauron-class Morton's demon isn't an excuse.

The conclusion that Lonny Eachus is a pathological liar raises a disturbing question. I've previously defended contrarians like Jane/Lonny against suggestions that they're knowingly spreading misinformation:

"... You’ve previously asserted that contrarians know more than they let on, but I’ll defend Hanlon’s razor and the information deficit model to the dumb, naive, non-psychologist death. I refuse to believe that anyone who truly groks the Great Dying and the rate limits on adaptation via migration or evolution could keep spreading civilization-paralyzing misinformation. I suspect that Morton's demon is far stronger than most people realize. For example, even Morton himself was later consumed by this demon in such a depressing way that I won’t link it. ...

... I refuse to believe that some know more than they let on. Considering the stakes involved, that hypothetical informed contrarian (who I don’t believe exists) would have betrayed humanity. Even arsonists usually have a personal escape route, but knowingly spreading civilization-paralyzing misinformation has no plausible escape route. From my moral and pragmatic perspectives, the information deficit model seems to be correct.

Even as their numbers dwindle, I’ll keep defending the morality of contrarians. There’s no shame in being insufficiently informed about a complex scientific topic, as long as one eventually stops spreading misinformation that threatens the future of our civilization.

There are more enjoyable hobbies. Hobbies that don’t stain one’s legacy. Video games, reading, scuba diving, etc."

Jane, I've been defending people like you for years, insisting that you're not knowingly lying. I've insisted that you're spreading misinformation not because you're dishonest but because you're unable to overcom

Solar is being adopted largely by the middle class: http://climatecrocks.com/2013/...

The U.S. is also making strides: http://climatecrocks.com/2014/... . The revolution is being spearheaded by the Tea Party who values independence from government utilities: http://climatecrocks.com/2014/... "Monopoly utilities want to extinguish the independent rooftop solar market in America to protect their socialist control of how we get our electricity.”

The U.S. is also making strides: http://climatecrocks.com/2014/... . The revolution is being spearheaded by the Tea Party who values independence from government utilities: http://climatecrocks.com/2014/... "Monopoly utilities want to extinguish the independent rooftop solar market in America to protect their socialist control of how we get our electricity.”

In Germany citizens and co-ops own about half of the solar capacity. So it is the average tax payer who both pays for and benefits from the subsides. It represents a real democratization of the energy market. "Not only has energy production in Germany been pried from the hands of the “Big Four,” namely the four utility giants that had dominated the German energy market, but it is now also radically decentralized." - http://climatecrocks.com/2014/...

It is amazing what they have achieved. Especially in the face of doubters who predicted rolling brown outs that never materialized. The next revolution needs to come in storage. I'm optimistic.

A cursory googling doesn't paint Steve S. Goddard as someone that has a rigourous approach to statistical analysis.

And might this help explain the melting of the ice more so than global warming

Probably not unless the plastics are dark. If they are dark they will absorb solar energy that would have otherwise been reflected. Black carbon for example can accelerate ice loss: http://climatecrocks.com/2014/...

The study, in Proceedings to the National Academy of Sciences (Keegan et al. 2014) finds that black carbon from wildfires facilitated widespread Greenland ice sheet surface melting in just two years since the end of the 19th century: 1889 and 2012. They argue convincingly that not just warm temperatures, but the positive feedback with black carbon and surface solar heating can push the surface energy balance into net heating and ice melt. Further, the likelihood for future increases in air temperature and wildfire boosts the probability of high altitude former “dry snow area” surface melting by end of century to every few years, if not even more frequently, they conclude.

Arctic ice loss is occurring much faster than was anticipated by climate models, so it is likely that there are other factors at play.

“Steven Goddard” is a pseudonym used by an anonymous climate denialist crank, so incredibly sloppy that he even embarrassed arch climate denier Anthony Watts... (Source: New Lows: Sea Ice and “Steven Goddard” credibility)

Hide what decline, precisely

Mann has better things to do than being beaten over the head by the kindergarten level thinking behind the "Hide the decline" incident. If there was an honest debate, then that would be fine. But this is really the case of the absurdly stupid wasting everyone's time and money.

Sure when you see the list of 70 articles, it looks compelling. However, a little thought should tell you that's it's pretty thin evidence for his claims. If you average it out, it's a mere 7 articles a year spread across the entire English speaking world. That not terribly surprising that some articles would be written about it, given the combination of some unusually cold weather and the not-yet-settled debate in the climate science about whether the long-term natural cooling trend (plus aerosols) or shorter-term anthropogenic warming trend would be the primary driver for climate change in the near future.

Of course, as I often find when I look at the Watt's Up blog, the evidence only passes a friendly cursory review. Several of those 70 articles are repostings of the same article in different newpapers, and even more troubling is that some of the articles in that list aren't even about global cooling. For instance, they list a 1977 Times cover story called The Big Freeze. Apparently, it's about a cold and snowy winter, not a coming ice age.

Of course, this is not unexpected. Anthony Watts always seems to hold people who disagree with him to a much higher standard than those he agrees with. Just look at his treatment of Mueller who was an unquestionable god of climate science right up until he tried to tell Anthony Watts something he didn't want to hear, then suddenly he was a turn coat who sold out.

Initially the defendants were pretty cocky. Perhaps not so much now that this just got real. Here is what they originally published in an article titled "Get Lost":

"If Mann sues us, the materials we will need to mount a full defense will be extremely wide-ranging. So if he files a complaint, we will be doing more than fighting a nuisance lawsuit; we will be embarking on a journalistic project of great interest to us and our readers.

My advice to poor Michael is to go away and bother someone else. If he doesn't have the good sense to do that, we look forward to teaching him a thing or two about the law and about how free debate works in a free country."

- http://climatecrocks.com/2014/...

Can I at least ask for some other numbers, such as the number of bird kills resulting from pollutants dumped out by the big coal fired plants in Ohio?

Here's a somewhat biased response with numbers. But the comment down the thread a bit is right... it would be better to write it as GWh/bird -- some rough estimates seem to suggest that in the US, energy use is around 1.0 GWh/bird -- though that includes all birds, not just golden eagles.

Ice levels at the north pole are shrinking, but Antarctic ice levels are setting new records highs. There has been zero net change globally.

Glaciologists appear to disagree: http://climatecrocks.com/2012/11/08/new-video-antarctic-versus-arctic-ice-apples-and-oranges/.

I'm entirely unconvinced that a few degrees warmer climate equals disaster, famine and mass extinction.

Just for reference, an average temperature climb of a few degrees Celsius over a relatively short period may have caused one of the great extinction events, the Permian Extinction. Over 90% of the earth's biomass died during that event. As I understand it, a large part of the problem was that photosynthesis became unsustainable in the plants at the time. Photosynthesis is temperature sensitive and one hypothesis is that the leaves on the plants that flourished at the time were unable to dissipate enough heat to continue the process. Most of these plants died (and then everything that ate those plants died), until new plants with thinner and narrower leaves (which dissipated heat more efficiently) were able to replace them.

It won't necessarily cause famine or mass extinction, because we might not hit the extinction threshold before we run out of profitable fuels to burn and even if we do, the genetic engineering companies like Monsanto might take pity on the poorest nations in the world and give away their patented crop seed that is adapted to grow in the world's new climate, but it is a serious risk which must be considered.

"nobody seems to be able to find anything he's ever said that put him in the "skeptic" camp..."

Especially if they don't have 5 seconds with which to perform a google search.

Here's the latest. Scientific American has now published an interview with Richard Muller, in which Muller repeats the most popular climate denial talking points related to Mike Mann's famous and endlessly replicated hockey stick temperature graph, and throws in unsupportable slurs against Al Gore, the IPCC, and climate science in general. The magazine's editors did not see fit to fact check any of the statements.

Source

I used to think that way -- but I've been following the technology for a long time, and things are really starting to move. Here is some food for thought...

The missing link in renewable energy (cheap scalable batteries).
solar reaching price parity soon
Wind at a crossroads. The power output increases as a square of tower height -- so people are thinking about enormous off-shore towers, or towers in the great lakes.


There is really a lot more going on, including 20% of the US economy being under a revenue neutral carbon cap-and-trade for 10 years. (Bet you didn't know that.) This part of the US economy has seen the slowest growth in energy prices, and experienced more economic growth than the rest of the country. (Follow the link for reports.)

Renewable energy isn't just about the environment, or energy security -- it's also about growing the economy. Alas for the political discourse. The oil/coal lobby is well funded and very active, and the chief cronies in crony-capitalism.

Every time you deniers "call us on it", we link again and again and again to the real science. You ask for the data, the data is available. You cast aspersions on the data, and it's independently verified. You fund studies meant to show that there's no warming, the study shows that there really is warming.

When we "call you on it", you disappear into the woods.

Peter Sinclair just did a piece on Harrison Schmidt's scientific integrity, vis-a-vis this story.

Now, Harrison Schmitt, ex-astronaut, and a board member at the Oil and Tobacco shilling Heartland Institute, whose own shaky scientific integrity is documented in the video ... has apparently trolled the ranks of retired right wing NASA engineers (don’t see any climate specialists on this list) for yet another anti-factual denialosphere non-news story. Schmidt was famously rejected for a post heading the New Mexico Department of Energy, Minerals, and Natural Resources after accounts of his scientific distortions surfaced. He is also noted for appearing on the Moon-bat Conspiracy theory Alex Jones show to discuss his theory that the "environmental movement has been taken over by communists".

http://climatecrocks.com/2012/04/11/heartlands-truth-challenged-harrison-schmidt-trolls-nasa-nursing-home-for-new-list-of-scientists/

Presumably, Schmitt and Heartland [Institute] will be following up with a list of Doctors who prefer Camels.

I think they would tell you this:

Every year since 1997 has been warmer than 1997. Every single one. Every one. So you're absolutely 100% wrong.

If you look at the second graph on this page you'll see how you've been lied to. It's getting warmer, the people who are trying to trick you are simply cherry-picking picking two arbitrary points on a noisy line and claimin those two points are the trend. In some cases you're being deliberately deceived, in other cases, the people telling you this junk are just completely ignorant. Oh and if you really believe in climate change denial, Not-actually-a Lord Muncton (one of the most prominent anti-global warming spokespeople), also has a pill that simultaneously cures AIDS and cancer. Seriously. That's the kind of people who claim that anthropogenic global warming isn't real and that you can't trust scientists.

Muncton also advocated that every man, woman and child in the United States should be tested monthly for AIDS and anyone detected with signs of an infection should be "permanently removed from the population". He a right-wing conservative crackpot.

Look more noise from Dr. Roy Spencer intelligent design proponent global warming denier. I would feel guilty if I was using this person's history on the subject and ignore the science but it looks again like he's ignoring the science to push an agenda. Who gave us this wonderful article? Why our own timothy, Slashdot's barely literate "editor". We need to buy him more paste to eat so he'll stop posting this bullshit.

http://climatecrocks.com/2010/12/22/orwellian-language-of-the-new-world-order-or-just-silly/