Slashdot Mirror

Walk on out. They can't stop you. They can't come after you. IF they stop you, you can sue for wrongful imprisonment.

http://www.crimedoctor.com/loss_prevention_3.htm

Are Door Bag Searches Legal?

Yes, as long as the inspection is voluntary. No, if the bag check is involuntary or coerced. This is a rather fine legal distinction that is subject to misunderstanding and abuse. Basically, nothing in the law gives the merchant the right to detain a customer for the purpose of searching a shopping bag unless there is a reasonable suspicion of retail theft. See my web page on Shoplifting: Detention & Arrest for more details

A customer can refuse to have their bag checked and simply walk out the door past the bag checker. Hopefully the bag checker has been trained to know that they cannot force anyone to submit to a bag search without cause. This is important because the expectation of the bag checker is that all bag contents have been purchased. The worst thing that could happen is that an aggressive bag checker would forcibly detain or threaten a customer who refused to comply with the voluntary search

I've walked out of a Best Buy before and the alarm went off. There was absolutely no one AT the door to begin with. I was already 5' out the second set of double doors when I got a "Sir, Sir, The alarm went off." I turned around, acknowledged the fact to the guy that indeed, the alarm had gone off and kept walking. He was in a tizzy on his radio. Followed me 1/2 way to my car. I think tried to get my plate number, however, from another link on that page.

To establish a solid base for probable cause and prevent false arrest claims, there are six universally accepted steps that a merchant should follow before deciding to stop someone suspected of shoplifting:

You must see the shoplifter approach your merchandise
You must see the shoplifter select your merchandise
You must see the shoplifter conceal or carry away or convert your merchandise
You must maintain continuous observation the shoplifter
You must see the shoplifter fail to pay for the merchandise
You must approach the shoplifter outside of the store

They didn't have a single one of those and they knew it.

Rules are a bit different for CostCo and Sams Club as that is a part of the membership agreement you sign.

But just standing outside using an ATM in broad daylight isn't something I've ever heard of anyone having trouble with.

I allow a possibility of robbery in day time, for a good reason:

Most bank ATM robberies occur at night between 7pm and midnight (link.)

Most != all, that's why I can't say that the daytime is a guarantee of safety. Basically it depends on how bad the area is, and how much that drug user needs your money.

While that may be the law, that's not how it usually works out.

Arm Broken at Macy's

Wal-Mart employees kill suspected shoplifter

This security consultant seems to believe there are laws that state you can detain people.

Another opinion citing "International Association of Professional Security Consultants" (IAPSC)guidelines, which seems to agree with the above consultant.

2935.041 Detention, arrest of shoplifters; protection of library, museum and archival institution property.

(A) A merchant, or his employee or agent, who has probable cause to believe that items offered for sale by a mercantile establishment have been unlawfully taken by a person, may, for the purposes set forth in division (C) of this section, detain the person in a reasonable manner for a reasonable length of time within the mercantile establishment or its immediate vicinity.

2935.041 Detention, arrest of shoplifters; protection of library, museum and archival institution property.

(A) A merchant, or his employee or agent, who has probable cause to believe that items offered for sale by a mercantile establishment have been unlawfully taken by a person, may, for the purposes set forth in division (C) of this section, detain the person in a reasonable manner for a reasonable length of time within the mercantile establishment or its immediate vicinity.

Again, you haven't provided the link. You say it's there then post it. I can post several links that back up my argument about the necessary components to shopkeeper's priveledge.

1. http://www.crimedoctor.com/shoplifting2.htm
2. http://www.ehow.com/how_2040070_legally-detain-sho plifter.html

Can you even post one to support yours. You've made up falsehoods about the articel throughout this thread. Back it up with something. I'm at least reading the article and not making up crap about getaway cars and rushing out of the store. You've been spewing BS about this all day and not one iota of it has been fact. Post the link.

Ignoring the differences in California and Ohio statutes, probable cause in a shoplifting case requires a good deal more than "he wouldn't show me a receipt." By and large, in order to detain someone on suspicion of shoplifting you need to see them:

• take merchandise,
• conceal it, and
• leave the store without paying for it.

And you have to keep them under continual observation the whole time.

As you mentioned, Mr. Righi's refusal to suck corporate cock is not probable cause.

Having read TFA, it looks to me like the security guard and store manager have unlawfully detained not just Mr. Righi, but his entire family: By blocking the car from moving, the manager and guard trapped his father and father's wife, his brother and two sisters. That's five crimes -- possibly felonies -- committed by the store, on top of whatever crimes they committed against their customer.

If Mr. Righi and his family decide to pursue this, I think the perpetrators and their employers will be begging for the chance to apologize and settle.

I'll post this here.

A quick Google found this overview of what is allowed, not allowed and recommended in the case of shoplifting detention.

Basically, they can't simply "suspect" someone or complain if he refuses to show a receipt. They need to SEE the suspect take the property. More details about "probable cause" are here. Details on the issue of false arrest are here.

I'll post this here.

A quick Google found this overview of what is allowed, not allowed and recommended in the case of shoplifting detention.

Basically, they can't simply "suspect" someone or complain if he refuses to show a receipt. They need to SEE the suspect take the property. More details about "probable cause" are here. Details on the issue of false arrest are here.

I'll post this here.

A quick Google found this overview of what is allowed, not allowed and recommended in the case of shoplifting detention.

Basically, they can't simply "suspect" someone or complain if he refuses to show a receipt. They need to SEE the suspect take the property. More details about "probable cause" are here. Details on the issue of false arrest are here.

First, he didn't have to show his receipt or open the bag containing **his** property for the Circuit City door monitor. Unless you are shopping in a membership store where you signed a contract allowing such searches they are **voluntary**

Security consultant Chris E. McGoey notes:
"A customer can refuse to have their bag checked and simply walk out the door past the bag checker. Hopefully the bag checker has been trained to know that they cannot force anyone to submit to a bag search without cause. This is important because the expectation of the bag checker is that all bag contents have been purchased. The worst thing that could happen is that an aggressive bag checker would forcibly detain or threaten a customer who refused to comply with the voluntary search."
http://www.crimedoctor.com/loss_prevention_3.htm

Sure, it would have been easier to submit to a search, but stores use the force of conformity as a method of social engineering to get you to comply. A voluntary search isn't voluntary unless you can say no without negative consequences, otherwise the search is **coerced**. The effectiveness of this social engineering will be seen in the comments of people who will say he should have just shown his receipt. These people show their receipts and, based on innate human behavior, think that everyone should behave as they do and that not to do so is to be unreasonable. But where should it stop? If you think the store had a right to make him show a receipt and have his bags searched--contrary to law--why not make him take his shoes off and let them inspect his wallet? They have **just as much right** do do that as search his bags, which is to say, "none."

Not showing your receipt when you don't have to may seem like a trivial gesture but clearly it is not. The OP was within his legal rights and as a result was arrested. Most of us are unwilling to face those kind of consequences to stand up to our everyday rights. He was not. I hope he brings awareness to the over zealous use of searches by private business acting like they are the government with police powers.

As to the arrest for failing to show his license. The OP was the one who called the cops and they arrested **him**, not the store personnel who were unlawfully detaining him in the parking lot! Idaho state law specifically says he just has to identify himself to the officer not show ID, and he isn't required to have an ID on him! To all of those who say he should have been arrested for not showing ID do you think that would also apply if he hadn't been carrying one? If not, why is it any different to arrest him just because he did?

If being asked to have your stuff searched by a Best Buy employee offends you, then don't submit to the search.

Just keep walking.

There's no law requiring you to stop, and the search is completely voluntary. So simply don't volunteer.

Just keep walking.

Please remember that the Fourth Amendment to the US Constitution applies to all citizens. This, in combination with established law, requires an establishment of probable cause before detaining a suspected shoplifter.

Just keep walking.

The alarm at the door going off is not probable cause to suspect a person of a crime. Instead, it probably (ie, usually, almost always, nearly every fucking time) means that a clerk failed to properly deactivate a tag: It is not probable cause to suspect someone of a crime, but is rather probable cause to believe that a human being has made an error.

Just keep walking.

They have no cause to physically detain you, and you've done nothing wrong. You have no reason to actually stop. It's your stuff: You just paid for it, and the goon by the door probably even watched you pay for it. Even the receipt belongs to you, and you cannot be compelled to submit it for inspection without probable cause. That a clerk made a mistake is not a factor -- the transaction is done.

Just keep walking.

If they attempt to detain you by blocking your path, without establishing probable cause, they are committing false imprisonment . As an American, you cannot be unlawfully detained (however briefly) against your own free will.

Just keep walking.

If they attempt to touch, grab, or otherwise physically restrain you, they are committing assault. This entitles you to engage in a reasonable amount of self defense. This doesn't mean that you get to pull your well-honed Cold Steel blade and begin carving them up like sushi, but it does mean that you can at least counter whatever tactics they're attempting to use. Minimize your effort, and focus on the goal: Leaving the store with your stuff.

Just keep walking.

Most of this shouldn't ever matter. A properly-trained store employee will know these things, and will not attempt to pursue the effort as long as you just keep walking. A typical confrontation goes something like this:

Greeter: "Sir, may I see your receipt?"

Patron: *keeps walking*

Greeter: "Sir?"

Patron: *keeps walking*

Greeter: "SIR!"

At this point, as long as you just keep walking, the automatic door will shut between you and them and you'll no longer hear their vacant pleas.

It's your stuff, which you own. It's nobody's business but yours. So take that stuff that you just paid for, and just keep walking .

If being asked to have your stuff searched by a Best Buy employee offends you, then don't submit to the search.

Just keep walking.

There's no law requiring you to stop, and the search is completely voluntary. So simply don't volunteer.

Just keep walking.

Please remember that the Fourth Amendment to the US Constitution applies to all citizens. This, in combination with established law, requires an establishment of probable cause before detaining a suspected shoplifter.

Just keep walking.

The alarm at the door going off is not probable cause to suspect a person of a crime. Instead, it probably (ie, usually, almost always, nearly every fucking time) means that a clerk failed to properly deactivate a tag: It is not probable cause to suspect someone of a crime, but is rather probable cause to believe that a human being has made an error.

Just keep walking.

They have no cause to physically detain you, and you've done nothing wrong. You have no reason to actually stop. It's your stuff: You just paid for it, and the goon by the door probably even watched you pay for it. Even the receipt belongs to you, and you cannot be compelled to submit it for inspection without probable cause. That a clerk made a mistake is not a factor -- the transaction is done.

Just keep walking.

If they attempt to detain you by blocking your path, without establishing probable cause, they are committing false imprisonment . As an American, you cannot be unlawfully detained (however briefly) against your own free will.

Just keep walking.

If they attempt to touch, grab, or otherwise physically restrain you, they are committing assault. This entitles you to engage in a reasonable amount of self defense. This doesn't mean that you get to pull your well-honed Cold Steel blade and begin carving them up like sushi, but it does mean that you can at least counter whatever tactics they're attempting to use. Minimize your effort, and focus on the goal: Leaving the store with your stuff.

Just keep walking.

Most of this shouldn't ever matter. A properly-trained store employee will know these things, and will not attempt to pursue the effort as long as you just keep walking. A typical confrontation goes something like this:

Greeter: "Sir, may I see your receipt?"

Patron: *keeps walking*

Greeter: "Sir?"

Patron: *keeps walking*

Greeter: "SIR!"

At this point, as long as you just keep walking, the automatic door will shut between you and them and you'll no longer hear their vacant pleas.

It's your stuff, which you own. It's nobody's business but yours. So take that stuff that you just paid for, and just keep walking .

If being asked to have your stuff searched by a Best Buy employee offends you, then don't submit to the search.

Just keep walking.

There's no law requiring you to stop, and the search is completely voluntary. So simply don't volunteer.

Just keep walking.

Please remember that the Fourth Amendment to the US Constitution applies to all citizens. This, in combination with established law, requires an establishment of probable cause before detaining a suspected shoplifter.

Just keep walking.

The alarm at the door going off is not probable cause to suspect a person of a crime. Instead, it probably (ie, usually, almost always, nearly every fucking time) means that a clerk failed to properly deactivate a tag: It is not probable cause to suspect someone of a crime, but is rather probable cause to believe that a human being has made an error.

Just keep walking.

They have no cause to physically detain you, and you've done nothing wrong. You have no reason to actually stop. It's your stuff: You just paid for it, and the goon by the door probably even watched you pay for it. Even the receipt belongs to you, and you cannot be compelled to submit it for inspection without probable cause. That a clerk made a mistake is not a factor -- the transaction is done.

Just keep walking.

If they attempt to detain you by blocking your path, without establishing probable cause, they are committing false imprisonment . As an American, you cannot be unlawfully detained (however briefly) against your own free will.

Just keep walking.

If they attempt to touch, grab, or otherwise physically restrain you, they are committing assault. This entitles you to engage in a reasonable amount of self defense. This doesn't mean that you get to pull your well-honed Cold Steel blade and begin carving them up like sushi, but it does mean that you can at least counter whatever tactics they're attempting to use. Minimize your effort, and focus on the goal: Leaving the store with your stuff.

Just keep walking.

Most of this shouldn't ever matter. A properly-trained store employee will know these things, and will not attempt to pursue the effort as long as you just keep walking. A typical confrontation goes something like this:

Greeter: "Sir, may I see your receipt?"

Patron: *keeps walking*

Greeter: "Sir?"

Patron: *keeps walking*

Greeter: "SIR!"

At this point, as long as you just keep walking, the automatic door will shut between you and them and you'll no longer hear their vacant pleas.

It's your stuff, which you own. It's nobody's business but yours. So take that stuff that you just paid for, and just keep walking .

This doesn't really affect your stand about boycotting Best Buy, but just in case you're not aware, you should know that having your bags searched as you leave Best Buy, or any other store that does that, is a purely voluntary thing. You can politely refuse and just keep walking. They have no legal right to require you to submit to a bag search, and they know it (the guards are trained to understand that). There's an article about it here.

Here's what these guys had to say: "Yes, as long as the inspection is voluntary. No, if the bag check is involuntary or coerced. This is a rather fine legal distinction that is subject to misunderstanding and abuse. Basically, nothing in the law gives the merchant the right to detain a customer for the purpose of searching a shopping bag unless there is a reasonable suspicion of retail theft. "

That depends on state law. If I see you commit a felony, in most states I can arrest you and detain you until the police arrive. Many states authorize merchants to detain suspected shoplifters. Usually this requires that a store employee witnesses the crime, not just because a buzzer went off. See here.

Everything I've ever read, typified by this and this, state that, yes, the store can detain you if you've been in their store, but if they turn out to be wrong, they're utterly hosed.

Everything I've ever read, typified by this and this, state that, yes, the store can detain you if you've been in their store, but if they turn out to be wrong, they're utterly hosed.

I know, I know, who trusts web sources? But, here's some reading...

ARE DOOR BAG SEARCHES LEGAL?

Yes, as long as the inspection is voluntary. No, if the bag check is involuntary or coerced. This is a rather fine legal distinction that is subject to misunderstanding and abuse. Basically, nothing in the law gives the merchant the right to detain a customer for the purpose of searching a shopping bag unless there is a reasonable suspicion of retail theft. See my web page on Shoplifting: Detention & Arrest for more details.

A customer can refuse to have their bag checked and simply walk out the door past the bag checker. Hopefully the bag checker has been trained to know that they cannot force anyone to submit to a bag search without cause. This is important because the expectation of the bag checker is that all bag contents have been purchased. The worst thing that could happen is that an aggressive bag checker would forcibly detain or threaten a customer who refused to comply with the search.

Yes, I must add something about Toyota's suscess too. It sold like mad you know.

Why? This explains: http://www.crimedoctor.com/autotheft2.htm

In fact, Toyota must thank to those thiefs. If they didn't steal, it wouldn't sell at all.

From Crimedoctor:

You must approach the shoplifter outside of the store. Although not technically necessary, following this step eliminates all possibility that the shoplifter still intends to pay for the stolen product. A few courts have held that detaining someone for shoplifting inside a retail store does not establish the criminal intent of theft. However, in several states shoplifters can be detained once they have concealed the merchandise. When approaching a shoplifter outside of the store always have a least one trained employee as a witness. There is safety in numbers and most shoplifters will cooperate if they believe fighting or running is futile. When you approach a shoplifter outside it is important to identify yourself clearly and your authority for stopping them. Plain-clothes loss prevention agents carry badges or official looking ID cards so the shoplifter has no doubt who they are. Most shoplifter apprehensions should be accomplished with no force or if necessary, minimal force like touching or guiding. Professional loss prevention agents sometimes will use handcuffs to take someone into custody, if they are first trained how and when to legally apply them properly.

In almost every jurisdiction if you follow these six steps, you should have no problem with proving criminal intent to shoplift and be able to establish probable cause to detain a shoplifter.

I guess the question is exactly how can a store detain you, especially if the items shoplifted are at a value low enough for the crime to be a misdemeanor?

That is where Security Expert comes into play:
In almost all jurisdictions in the United States, merchants are legally empowered to detain shoplifting suspects for investigation and possible arrest and prosecution in the criminal justice system. This power is called "merchant's privilege."

There are more details about Merchant's privilege in the aformentioned link.

"Are you serious? What would you do if I refused?"

I've tried this, after reading this page:

http://www.crimedoctor.com/loss_prevention_3.htm

I actually let them search my purchase bag, but not my work bag, which had my laptop, tools, CDs, etc.

I'll be honest, I was a bit nervous and I could've handled it better. But in the end, they let me go, with my purchase.

The guy at the door had no idea what to do though... he called the manager over, and the manager didn't really know what to do either. Here's a tip: Don't give them your bag or receipt, so you can just walk out (which you **can** do).