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Is the BSA "Grace Period" a Scam?
An anonymous reader asks: "I work at a small non-profit that has 18 employees plus a 13 seat computer lab. We received a form letter from the Business Software Alliance (BSA) telling us to do a self audit and if we find any unlicensed software to report it during our 'Grace Period' because 'if you organization's software is not licensed, it could become to focus of a BSA investigation'. Now this is obviously a method to scare up some business for the BSA members. If we ignore this, how likely is it that we will be 'investigated'. I know that I cannot produce the original CD's and/or documentation for some of the software that we HAVE paid for."
Is the BSA "Grace Period" a Scam?!!! more like celda
This is America! Your innocent until proven guilty! Hey Wait......
Support Objectivism and the United States,
Ayn Rand
"it could become to focus of a BSA investigation"
it could become to what?
If you stole from them, and you admit it in the near future, they promise not to sue you. Yep, sounds like a scam to me.
Step 1: Promise not to sue people
Step 2: ????
Step 3: Profit!!!
from http://www.newsfactor.com/perl/story/9921.html:
:
CAAST -- a nonprofit industry alliance group that counts among its members Adobe Systems, Apple Canada, Microsoft Canada, and Symantec -- said that one in every three business software applications in the country was pirated in 2000.
On a positive note, the report showed a four-year decline in the software piracy rate, dipping to 38 percent last year from 41 percent in 1999 and 40 percent in 1998.
"Although the piracy rate has decreased, software piracy continues to signify lost jobs, wages and tax revenues in Canada," said CAAST president Allan Steel. "Organizations need to realize the importance of implementing policies and procedures in order to achieve and maintain compliance."
The rest of the world, on the other hand, is not quite as obedient
The BSA and CAAST studies, which were conducted by the independent International Planning & Research Corporation (IPR), also found that for the first time in six years, the world piracy rate increased, edging up to 37 percent in 2000.
If this is the case I don't think there's a whole lot you can do... Get ready to negotiate! :-)
Why do you not have the original licensing documentation for your lab? This is the most important thing for a computer lab administrator to take care of. If something goes wrong with one computer, do you have documentation that shows that you are legally permitted to transfer the software from one computer to another? If not, then you're asking for trouble.
Let this be a lesson to you. Get a box that holds all your licenses. It's really that easy.
I have been pwned because my
A Google new search reveals all sorts of interesting articles, including some cases where people were busted.
And this little gem:
y'know, if you're trying to keep your warez on the down low, its not a good idea to post a slashdot story about it.
Perhaps some pertinent questions:
Supposing the BSA does perform an investigation, I'm wondering what the actual legal procedures are.
Are you required to maintain documentation of every last opened piece of software? I know at the CIT department I worked in for school, we had Windows 95 manuals stacked up in storerooms, even though there was a school wide license. I don't know if this is required though.
Furthermore, what happens if they find you're missing a couple documents, and decide to take you to court. Is any jury going to decide, based on either a "preponderance of the evidence" or "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard that this software was obtained and/or used illegally?
Any legal experts out there?
If it's somewhere in a license they can show we bought, that we have to allow access to the installed software, then for every license they can show, I can provide an adequate installation.
I checked their About page and found the following statement:
Promoting a safe and legal online world
The Business Software Alliance (BSA) is the foremost organization dedicated to promoting a safe and legal online world.
We are the voice of the world's software, hardware and Internet sectors before governments and with consumers in the international marketplace. BSA members represent the fastest growing industries in the world.
BSA educates computer users on software copyrights and cyber security; advocates public policy that fosters innovation and expands trade opportunities; and fights software piracy.
Nothing in there suggests any legal authority. They are advocates not enforcers. Those letters strike me as very misleading. Anyone want to post a copy?
We got one of these...
They called a 'truce' in our town of 500. We are a 2 employee show, run from a basement.
We bought a bunch of stuff, but never sent in the registration cards. We registered some stuff back in '97-'98 probably, and nothing since. We haven't gone out of business, so they figure we're probably pirating something. We are not, but since we haven't registered anything in a while (Microsoft Tech support is sooo valuable!), and are continually considering the move to Linux (just a matter of time...) we come up in their database as a possible pirate. Oh the miracles of databases!
All we did was make a file of receipts and certificates, and they can wade through it if they come a knockin. We're sure it's all there, and we can hopefully sue if they end up siezing a computer, especially since we are legal.
We had to look real hard for the licenses, but we found them. The certificates are useless without a receipt.
They can't investigate you, they have no police powers what so ever. They can only initiate an investigation if they have sufficent evidence of a crime being commited. Tell them to take there scare tactics and shove them up their ass, where they keep their wads and wads of cash warm.
Rest assured that you aren't the only ones in this boat.
I work in an enterprise environment. Last year, I registered for one of those free magazine subs and a few weeks later... viola, a letter from the BSA using the same name/address pair.
The BSA must be getting names from those lousy online surveys (company size, whats your position, how much software will you be buying in 6,12,24 months).
Sounds more like SPAM to me !
"Whoever would overthrow the liberty of a nation must begin by subduing the freeness of speech."--Benjamin Franklin
I got the same form letter about a week ago. I'm just a student so I'm not really sure why I got sent one. I do have all the receits for the software I use. After reading it several times, I'm just assuming it's a scare tactic to drum up sales.
...
I think the only question that went through my head was what if any legal power would the BSA actually have if they did decide to audit me. Seeing as I don't own a company
You must have some sort of legal counsel advising your non-profit. Ask him (or her) to request a preliminary injunction against the BSA to prevent them from disrupting your business.
Isn't that what the "grace period" is all about?
Isn't it so you can rush out and buy licenses?
--
the strongest word is still the word "free"
Some one wrote this the last time the BSA came up on Slashdot- sorry, I saved the quote but not the poster. The conventional wisdom thus far from other posters seems to be 'ignore it,' but if it goes further, consider this:
I know someone that was audited by the BSA and decided to fight it. Basically they countered by stating they wanted full disclosure of who reported them so as to determine the validity of the claim prior to wasting internal resources and dollars. They also argued that the reporting tools are a violation of privacy. Yes, they expected them to place some software on their network which scans their entire network not to mention each machine's registry. Third, they also argued that even if they were in violation of license, the license is between them and the vendor (after all, the license does not allow for the BSA as having legal proxy interests) and unless the vendor in questions decides that they'd like to personally persue the issue, the BSA does not have legal authority or the legal grounds to persue the action. Furthermore, they argued that even if something odd was discovered and they lost, only the government has the right to impose fines on legal matters as such and they would be within their legal rights to simply purchase any outstanding licenses or settle directly with the vendor in question and completely dismiss the BSA altogether thereby eliminating the need to pay any fines or added fees.
Last I heard, even though two ex-employees had turned them in, the BSA simply walked from the issue as, from what I gathered, they really don't have a legal leg to stand on.
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store, not a government agency.
If I'm clean, and I know it, I'd blow them off.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
A scam, probably not. Is it smart, also probably not. Im in the chicagoland area and have been hearing the commercials for BSA on the radio everywhere across the dial. What they are aiming for is to get people turned in by relying on an unhappy employee to rat them out.
That being said, keep in mind that the BSA is just an organization set up to find pirated software and collect fees. Fees that they no doubt get a cut of. They seem to have no problem using peoples fear and turning it into the driving force of their biz.
You are under NO obligation to report anything to them, unless they hand you a court order. They are an independent entity and have no more ability to legally inspect your systems than I would. so it would be in their best interest to make it seem that they do have that ability
This seems to be a page right out of the RIAA playbook, pretend something is true and youll fool at least some of the people
You can fool some of the people some of the time, all of the people some of the time, but never all of the people all of the time
I got confused when I read about the BSA and software. I was wondering what the Boy Scouts of America had to do with is. My best advice: Be Prepared.
"I know that I cannot produce the original CD's and/or documentation for some of the software that we HAVE paid for"
Don't you keep receipts/use CC's? Unless you bought the software with cash at a street corner, there is a record that you purchased it.
then YOU MUST BE AN OSS TERRORIST!!!
I wouldn't be surprised if that company is owned by M$ or some other bigass company.
I considered sending bills to spammers that used my bandwidth without permission. None of them paid.
I suggest that if you do anything as a responce, it should be to send them a bill for your wasted time. Call them on their hypocricy and do the rest of us a favor.
BTW, if I get get one email about this shit I'll raise some hell and subscribe some people to some mailing lists.
You can't judge a book by the way it wears its hair.
Corporate Software Licensing In General is a Scam. Wouldn't you say? And thus, the goons who enforce these licenses are a scam.
I think you are correct in that they just get a bunch a mail lists and start firing off the letters. We started getting these letters when my wife passed the bar.
I've received letters from both 2x in the last week. No, we don't pirate software. No, I'm not going to respond to them, although I've got half a mind to have my attorney to send them a "friendly" letter telling them to lay off the heavy handed mafia like tactics (this is my opinion of the tenor of the letter). We provide a myriad of services to clients and our clients have been receiving these letters too.
Having been around for quite a few IT generations, I've seen these before but they still get me going. I'm still going to ignore them. IANAL. Despite wanting to come unglued at them for the way I feel that they portray things, I'm holding my tongue.
For what it is worth, the MS letters are far friendlier than the BSA letter. The BSA letter is very pointed.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
--Mike--
Who's there?
BSA: (mumbles)
Who?
BSA: Unicef.
Oh! Why didn't you say that before?
BSA-landshark attacks pirate who opens the door.
It depends on what you're doing of course, but if I were in your position I would be taking a very hard look at Linux or freebsd right now.
455fe10422ca29c4933f95052b792ab2
When we get the same letter (each and every year) we promptly throw it out. The first time we got one we asked our corporate lawyer what rights they have. If they do decide to come to your door, simply kindly turn them away. They can only "audit" your premisis with the help of a warrant from the US Marshals. Note that if you do turn them away, they very well might come back with said warrant. YMMV.
-- Cameron
It seems to me that the big winners, once again, are the lawyers that represent the small companies and non-profits alike. Even if a company does disregard the letter, it would seem a prudent move to investigate the matter more closely by bringing such material to your company's lawyer.
While the BSA does not directly say that you will be sued, you *could* be sued by the company whose software they are looking for. IANAL, but to say that the BSA is going to sue you is a threat that is illegal in the US if the entity does not have legal grounds on which to sue - in your company's sake, proof of no licenses. Entities, whether corporate or personal, can not go around saying they're going to sue and not sue, either; that's a method of blackmail, I would think.
I think that the BSA just tries to use FUD to make money. They scare some company into letting them in their doors and then its game-time! They've got you.
Keep them outdoors and tell them to pack sand - or toss the letter out.
In the mean time, I'd do some damage control and find those licenses, just in case.
... disregarding the obvious problems I have with the BSA which other are sure to point out (and that I have ranted about before) legality, authority and such. It seems very odd to me that anyone should have to PROVE they bought something. CompUSA pulls the same shit when your walking out of the store, I get pretty irate and being stopped and having my purchases searched at the door, especially when I took only TEN STEPS from the register. But that's a little more understandable than the BSA's tactics, after all if I'm in the store with no receipt it's more likely that I didn't just lose it (though it is possible). When you buy site licenses I can imagine you have to show that you have a valid license, as far as proving you didn't buy it after the letter was sent, they can fuck off. If your legal now there's nothing they can do. But what about off the shelf purchases? What about backup copies (allowed by law) that were kept in a firesafe when the originals were destroyed. Like someone commented earlier, you are innocent until proven guilty, the burden of proof is on the prosecution. Hell I'd demand a jury of my peers.
I'm the big fish in the big pond bitch.
...This is the BSA, in the UK, right?
So how exactly do they propose to check up on me anyway? On what legal basis can they force me to let them into my business to perform an "audit" to their satisfaction? Who the hell do these people think they are anyway?
This is just the usual scare-mongering. It's about time someone stood up to people like this and made them produce some evidence and go to court. Better yet, let them go after a legit company, and sue them for some form of defamation afterwards.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
How clever is that??? Send out threatening letters to all of the fresh law graduates! What's one market in the US that you don't want upset with you? Lawyers you say? Duh.
These letters are sales pitches. However, with that said, if you can prove due diligence that you attempted to acquire all your warez^H^H^H^H^Hsoftware legally, no court would convict you. The fish they're trying to fry are the "one copy on all the machines" types.
Where software pirating really eats away at profits is in corporate and educational institutions.
The poster's experience describes *the* sole interface between an authority and the potentially law-breaking organization. This IS the only place the information gets exchanged.
The poster is doing a simple risk assessment. Now, these are fine for life and death matters like war eg "force depletion assessment" (thanks west wing), or for business risks. But this is a risk with the law, and history shows us that it is not worth discussing.
All information to actually answer the posters comment would either go into making him feel ok with his illegal risk, or give him ideas on how best to avoid getting caught.
So....I dont think that the BSA simply asking some random,relatively senior member of an organization is effective at all. I don't think that something this routine is worth any human's time. I do think that we have to engineer ourselves out of the loop here (thats one of the basic things we do as programmers).
But, when envisioning a model of how we could engineer ourselves out of the loop, the idea of trusted computing comes to mind.
Suppose the process is automated. Well, as corporations serve their master (the dollar), it might be more justified to fake that your corporation is running legal software (however that might be for all non-spyware microsoft stuff...) although this brings up the idea (how the heck does the BSA actually invesitigate for non-spyware produces (maybe answering this will satisfy the poster)).
But, the easiest way to solve this problem is "trusted computing".eg devise an untamperable way to record certain data on a device connected the computer and to the net (eg write only without capability of deleting). Make a standard for this, and get all software vendors that care to implement their software to make use of this.
Yeah, I realize that this is going to ruffle a lot of feathers as it seems that everyone is freedom-for-the-sake-of-freedom here. But I am simply presenting a pretty ruff and pretty good solution to how to engineer ourselves out of the loop here.
-- -- --
Help my mini cause: My journal
Actually, this campaign was going on two years ago. In the fall, I think. Same scam.
Reminder to self: Keep magnet with in close proximity to computer for emergency use.
Quote from an interview with Bruce Perens by Joe Barr:
"What is happening is that through various legal "gotcha's" that are incorporated in the EULA, or in things that are deceptively sent to companies, [the BSA] are getting a company to waive a legal right: the right to privacy.
"They send you a postcard and ask you if you want to know about licensing. If anyone in your company signs it and returns it, it actually gives them authority to come in and audit your company. I don't have direct experience with it, and if you go look into the press on BSA you will find out about this one. They target low-level employees in your company, and it sounds on the postcard like it's a seminar on software licensing. But if someone checks "Yes, I'm interested", then somewhere in the fine print it's actually an invitation to come and audit the software licensing for the company."
http://www.linuxworld.com/2003/0117.barr.html
Look, the letter is scary, but everyone in any buisness gets it. Unless you get another nasty letter or have vengeful ex-employees, disregard it. Even I got one. They just send it out to the area they're investigating to turn up anyone they can without any real work.
Would be nice to crucify the BSA with the RICO Act under the "conduct or participate, directly or indirectly, in the conduct of such enterprise's affairs, through a patter of racketeering activity" section, for misrepresenting the legal system for the express purpose of intimidation.
Nailing them for mail fraud would be nice too, if you can find them deliberately transmitting false statements.
They are scum only out to extort a buck.
Well first off we received a phone call from them after we first ignored the three letters they sent us. Then we basicaly said okay sure sure sure to them on the phone, have a nice day- Click. Then we ignored them some more, and that was 2 years ago and we have not heard back from them.
Of course you should be paying for the software, and if you do not have the licenses I suggest you get this resolved. A receipt should be sufficient enough to track down when/where the software was bought. You have 20 computers, and a receipt for 20 copies of MS-Office..well guess what, no lawyer in their right mind would go to a judge with this. Do not tell me you have no receipts for the software,, what kind of mickey mouse outfit are you working for? The IRS is going to be your next problem!
So in the long run I would just ignore them. Go ahead and do an internal audit of which you lose the documentation, then I would start buying software in a one and two a month type scenario. Nothing to break the bank.
In any case DO NOT LET THEM COME DO AN AUDIT! They have no right to enter your buisness, and they will not do this without a court order. And if they have a court order your lawyers can fight this easily. It is impossible for them to prove they have a shread of proof, and anything that an disgruntal ex-employee has said is hearsay.
We think the reason they contacted us is because an ex-employee wanted a raise since he just graduated a CCNA course and was Cisco certified (I find this amuzing since he took a class for 2 years on the CCNA test which has a book of less then 500 pages), problem is that it was not his job to work with Cisco equipment and we have no positions available for him. Since he was an asshole and demanded a raise we fired him, so we think he called the BSA and said we were illegal for Adobe software because the software cabinet the IT department has only has 2 copies of the Adobe Acrobat software, what the moron does not know is that we have 15 copies of it in different departments maintained by that department since it is specialized software and only a few people get (The IT department maintains a copy of the license and screen prints, also copies of the receipts are filed in the IT office which he would not know about since he was a tech, and shitty one at that!). It is installed currently on about 10 peoples computers.
The BSA isn't a government body. If the BSA asks you to do a self-audit, or they'll come audit you, just ignore it, or plead dumb. They're hoping that you're going to come forward and get your software licensed. If you have a small, non-profit company, you're not going to have to worry about the BSA coming to you to do an audit. They don't have the manpower. If the BSA does happen to show up at your company, unless they have a WARRANT, they don't have the right to audit anything.
In other words, yes. It IS a scam.
I'm sorry but if you're in a business you should be keeping your receits for tax purposes anyway that's enough to proove you purchased the software you need to look at your entire method to running your business everything about licencing should be kept until you dispose of the software or it's no longer used any other way is just foolish and it also means you're liable. I'd be more afraid of your business practice than your stupid American business association
The odds?
0.
Literally.
0.
If they had any intention of "auditing" people (which, btw, is illegal in and of itself! It violates property laws, search & seizure laws, as well as laws against extortion, to name a few) they would have just gone ahead and done so already. Instead, they've put millions into cranking out form letters to people as scare tactics, since they know they're effectively powerless.
If auditing companies produced any meaningful monetary award, they would already be doing so...which they aren't. And even if they did, they sure as hell wouldn't tell you or I about it in advance.
Logic prevails.
Bowie J. Poag
...actually installed illegally pirated software, though. Show me a case where a group with genuinely bought software but a couple of misplaced certificates was successfully sued?
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
SCREW THIS. So much for 'taking the opposing point of view'. You know why the BSA exists? Because executives at giant software companies had a dream. And that dream was to have six supermodels wrestling nightly in Cristal champagne. And 0-day warez is THREATENING THAT DREAM! Think about it! Do you want to kill that dream? SUPPORT THE BSA!
Karma: pi (Mostly due to circular reasoning in posts).
I've seen these letter before from clients. If they do not specifically charge you with piracy, stealing or whatever, throw it out and don't bother downloading their spyware.
You have the same rights you always had. They have to have probable cause to get a warrant, and they have to have a warrant before they can come into your office forcibly. A warrantless vampire cannot come in unless you invite them in.
IANAL, but I believe that as long as you have practiced due diligence and can show that you took reasonable steps to not break the law, then no judge with an actual brain would rule against you.
That being said, the BSA is looking for those who buy one copy and load it all across the office. I know of a company that did that, got ratted on by a disgruntled employee. Bottom line: they paid big. These are the fish they want to fry, and there are plenty of them out there.
Now, if you've been pirating software, and get a letter, and throw it out, and they still come after you, you won't get any sympathy from me!
-- I am. Therefore, I think!
Step 1: Promise not to sue people Step 2: ???? Step 3: Profit!!!
"Grace period" means they won't sue you if you come forward. It doesn't mean they'll let you continue to use pirated software; they just expect you to buy legitimate copies at this point. It's the same thing that the IRS does every few years. If you come forward they won't penalize you for not having filed your tax returns, but that doesn't mean you don't have to pay any back taxes.
Tell them "sure, no prob", but tell them that you'll
charge $X/hour to perform the audit and ask them to draw up the PO.
There's something so heart-warming about stuffing these types of people with disinformation.
What the parent says gives me yet another reason to fill out every single business reply card that I can with bogus krunk and send it back.
They have whatever authority you agreed to when you clicked through that license agreement. You _did_ read that thing, right?
They get those things from mailing lists from other companies, the same way people get any other sort of junk mail. They don't really know much about the people they send them to; they're just hoping for a response. Ignore it or say "go away" - even if you come to their attention, they still can do nothing. They have no authority to search your property. And even the police would need proof of guilt, not lack of proof of innocence. That's how America works.
A friend of mine owns a very small niche vertical intergration software company. He has a canned response for all threats of lawsuits, BSA investigation, etc. The only people he doesn't use this on is the government, since they don't need any help getting any more fucked up.
"Can I please have your lawyers contact number, I have a fax machine, and will send all information I have to your lawyer." He then sends one piece of information (a page, one liscence, etc) at a time, every hour on the hour, to said lawyer, to cause their clients legal bills to explode. Considering that he logs everything he does and has backups dating back for the last 15 years, he has a lot of information that he can send. Legal bills are quick ways to empty someone's pockets.
I might be missing something obvious here, so apologies if that's the case - but I've never understood what gives the BSA the right to walk into your office and demand to see your licenses? Is it embedded in an EULA somewhere, because I thought even the police were supposed to need a warrant to get into your office...
"Warrior, poet, wise man, child"
The BSA have quite a coercive system: Induce you to waive your right to not incriminate yourself, then induce you to "prove yourself innocent".
They sent me a letter a couple years ago, and I told them not to bother me again. Best strategy is to put them on notice that you consider mail from them to be harassment and to cease and desist.
I got one of these too. These dumb monkeys are getting the names from free industry rags that you sign up for and any of those jars you dropped your business card in as well as anywhere else they can buy or steal a name.
We have 2 person company that is fully licensed, but these crack monkeys are welcome to come by with a warrant if they want. Expect additional discussions with my lawyer though.
All of the new companies we are working on will be running OSS whenever possible. No Adobe, MS, Macromedia, whatever.
The most horrible space tragedy in recorded history occured five days ago, and all you people can do is talk about whether the BSA "grace period" is a scam? My *god*, folks, get some priorities here!
I actually heard a radio ad for the BSA outside of Boston today, rather odd.
Basically it was to upper level people in a medium business talking about an BSA announcement and not knowing if they were in compliance, and then the senior person telling the other person to make it his top priority cause it would suck to tell the investors that they made a profit then had to pay it all in fines to the BSA or whomever.
"Not knowing when the dawn will come, I open every door." - Emily Dickinson
Here is the letter we got, mispellings are mine, formatting isn't perfect:
BSA, 1150 18th Street NW, Suite 700, Washington, DC 20036
Is your business using unlicensed software? If so, the Business Software Alliance is offering a one-month opportunity to get licensed. Your BSD Grace Period Participation ########
January 22, 2002
MY ADDRESS
Dear FOO,
You may have heard that the Business Software Alliance is investigating ANYTOWN area organizations that use unlicensed software. If your organization's software is not licensed, it could become the focus of a BSA investigation. So, audit your software now. Unauthorized copying is the same as stealing. The penalties for copyright infringement are serious - sometimes totaling hundres of thousands of dollars - and in this economy, can your business affort that risk?
BSA is an association representing the leading software companies: Adobe, Apple, Autodesk, Avid, Bently Systems, Borland, CNC Software/Mastercam, FileMaker, Internet Security Systems, Macromedia, Microsoft, Network Associates and Symatec. Together with our memebers, we educate the public about software compliance and protect intellectual property rights.
Would you be able to tell if an employee had installed an unlicensed software program? Your business has until February 28 to get licensed.
BSA recognizes that, for whatever reason, your company may not have managed its software assets properly. That's why from February 1-28, BSA is offering a Software Grace Period to business like yours in ANYTOWN. Please take this time to review your software installations and usage and, if necessary, acquire the licenses your business needs. If, after you have participated in the Grace Period, your organization becomes the focus of a BSA investigation, BSA will not seek to impose penalties for any unauthorized copying that occurred before February 28, (unless your organization has already been informed that it is under investigation). If BSA contacts you, just show your Grace Period Participation Nuber and the software purchase receipts. [Please see the reverse for terms.]
Not sure if your organization is fully licensed? BSA can help you find out.
Visit our Web site at www.bsagrace.com for more information and to download the free Software Audit Tool, or call our special Grace hotline at 1-877-536-4BSA (1-877-536-4272). If you find that your business isn't 100% licensed, contact your software vendor immediately and buy the software licenses you need before the Grace Period ends on February 28.
Sincerely,
Bob Kruger, Vice President, Business Software Alliance
Grace Period Participation Terms
Bsd is offering a one-month Grace Period between February 1-28, 2003.
1. For your organization to qualify for the Grace Period campaign:
2. If, after you have participated in the Grace Period, your organization becomes the focus of a BSA investigation, BSA will not seek to impose penalties for any unauthorized copying that occurred prior to February 28, 2002 (unless your organization has already been informed that it is under investigation). If the BSA should contact you, just show your Software Grace Period Participation Number and software purchase receipts.
3. For the purpose of the Grace Period, BSD members are: Adobe, Apple, Autodesk, Avid, Bently Systems, Borland, CNC Software/Mastercam, FileMaker, Internet Security Systems, Macromedia, Microsoft, Network Associates and Symatec.
I got mine. They didn't even spell my company name right! Then just this week I got a letter from Microsoft with my company name mispelled exactly like on my BSA letter.
They are just hoping I will turn myself in. I mean Lord knows I only buy one copy of SuSE and install it on ALL of my computers and servers!
The Dickheads!
-- Many men would appreciate a woman's mind more if they could fondle it
The thing is just that.. How can they claim you have signed up for that, I mean, who says I do run windows? If you took a look at my computer it would be obvious, but they cannot claim to have some evil rights from a license agreement that they can't say I have signed... Doesn't that innocent until proven guilty apply anylonger in the US?
Land of the free my ass - at least they don't claim that here (The danish counter part did some of that too, except they just send out bills for about 100k$ or something like that instead of telling people to buy the stuff)
you are a developer for your company. You know they are stealing some software, that is pretty common in a start up that's under 2 years old, and has only had an office for under a year. The company is trying to register some of it's software and strive twords becoming legit, but you know they aren't there yet.
anyways, you know it's bad when your developing a plug-in for a major piece of software, and when you call thier tech support for an API problem, and they ask for your product ID number, you give it to them, they politely inform you that your using a pirated copy, *and* you quickly realize that there's not even a SINGLE legit copy of thier software in your office.
"Hey, here's a sweet plug-in we developed, and we're sure it works great, even thou we don't have an actual copy of thier product anywhere". Um, yea.
Did you ever just try walking past the checkpoint on the way out?
Fry's operates a similar checkpoint. I just ignore it -- even when I have a trolleyfull. Never have they attempted to stop me.
My rationale is that in order to stop you they need to have some reason to suspect that you have stolen something. Merely ignoring the checkpoint is not a reason. If they attempt to stop you by force, they are getting into very deep water.
I don't understand.
I'm the perfect guy for them. I'm totally unable to pay an expensive lawyer. Easy prey.
Could it be that they don't have my address or e-mail?
Ah, must be that: the makers of the OS I use (linux) are not affiliated with them. How dumb of me!
Maybe I should write a letter to BSA to come and check if I paid for my distro?
I'm a student and I've recieved three of their letters. The last one I recieved was about 2 months ago. I drafted a letter and mailed it to them saying:
All the software used on my computer is Open Source. You're very welcome to come audit me, but I dont keep my licenses on hand. You can find my licenses and user agreements online, at nearly any computer software oriented site. Perhaps you are familiar with my software license's, it's called the GNU GPL. Good Day Gentlemen.
Funny thing is, they havent replied yet to that letter...I wonder why?
Choose wisely you must...
Of course it's a scam. It's a scam to scare the suckers into buying licenses. We got the very same letter for the past two years, and you know what? Every year it's weakened the proposition that we should install more back end MS products. If it weren't for the fact that no one in my office trusts Samba for anything other than an academic play toy and a handy tool for developers everything (back end, server wise) would be non-ms.
The worst part about it, my GM, the grandfather figure got one of those letters personally and got suckered into paying $400 bucks for Office and Project. Bah. If I had known that I would have been preaching Open Office or something to him.
Original at http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,19093,00.asp
... That was a fishing expedition."
July 30, 2001
Truce or Dare
By Michael R. Zimmerman
If you're a small or medium-size company, there's a good chance you've heard from the Business Software Alliance about getting your software compliant with its licenses. If not, you probably will. The group is well into a nationwide letter and radio campaign to do just that.
But what you probably don't know is that, like so many of the companies that stuff your mailboxes with junk mail, the BSA, which represents such software giants as Microsoft Corp., Adobe Systems Inc. and Apple Computer Inc., has no intention of following up on its letters--regardless of how threatening and personal they may seem. It won't phone. And it won't pop in for a surprise audit.
Instead, an eWeek investigation reveals, the BSA's campaign is primarily a marketing effort essentially designed to scare people into buying more software. But for many enterprise customers who are quickly becoming fed up with the group's hardball tactics, the campaign is having the reverse effect: compliance, then departure to alternative products, like open source.
The reason the BSA Truce Campaign is more bark than bite is simple: As part of each Truce Campaign, the group sends out hundreds of thousands of letters at a time to businesses in a handful of cities. For the month of July, for example, it mailed 700,000 letters to businesses in five cities between New York and Portland, Ore. As such, it would be virtually impossible to contact even a sample of those companies to check up on their progress or lack of progress.
Indeed, one of the only ways the BSA is gauging the success of the Truce Campaign is by the size of the spike in software sales for various cities as the BSA passes through, which so far total 19.
"Everywhere we've run the Truce Campaign, we're seeing dramatic increases in sales," said Bob Kruger, vice president of enforcement for the BSA, in Washington. "So it's being successful."
But a deeper look into the Truce Campaign, as well as an ongoing and almost identical anti-piracy campaign by Microsoft, a founding member of the BSA, reveals something more complex: the possible beginning of an entirely new business model built around anti-piracy and fear. The bottom line: There's money in anti-piracy, and plenty to go around.
To be sure, piracy results in major losses of revenue for the software industry. According to the BSA, $2.94 billion was lost to piracy in North America alone last year, while $11.75 billion was lost to it globally for the same period. But so far this year, those figures have declined.
Since the launch of its enforcement campaign in North America in 1993, however, the BSA has brought in about $70 million in settlements, a mere drop in the bucket compared with the overall total. Now it seems the industry, with the help of the BSA, is taking a new tack, with its focus on generating revenue the old-fashioned way.
Consider the following: Microsoft has been busy constructing a network of support services through distributor and licensing partners to assist customers in assessing and auditing their software to comply with their licenses.
One Microsoft partner, License Online Inc., of Bellevue, Wash., tracks where the BSA is headed and rounds up as many of its 36,000 registered channel partners as it can for those cities to swoop in and sell licenses.
"When we know what area the BSA is going into, we're going in scrambling to piggyback on their marketing efforts," said Sharon Erdman, vice president of marketing for License Online.
License Online offers its partners across the United States a 12 percent commission on any licenses they sell through License Online. To get the contractors rolling, the company supplies them with a list of companies Microsoft has sent its anti-piracy letters to. In addition to commissions, the contractors are told the companies contacted have the potential to become "long-term" customers.
"Microsoft has absolutely partnered with businesses who can address the concerns," according to Devin Driggs, a Microsoft spokeswoman in Lake Oswego, Ore. "It feels a responsibility to its customers to address any issues with compliance they may be experiencing."
As far as the anti-piracy fight becoming a business unto itself, Driggs said Microsoft views the subject as an industry issue.
Kruger acknowledged that the BSA's letter campaign is a direct marketing campaign designed to encourage users to get in compliance and not directed at any company in particular. The group uses common mailing list companies such as Dun & Bradstreet Inc. to generate the lists.
Microsoft's campaign is more deliberate, company officials said.
"I don't think we're doing anything that's random," said Nancy Anderson, associate general counsel for the company, in Redmond, Wash. As part of Microsoft's licensing agreements for its products, Anderson said, "the customer agrees to assure us they are current. The obligation is on them to assure them and to undertake an audit if requested by Microsoft."
Not surprisingly, however, the hardball tactics are having a negative effect on customers.
"We were nailed for tens of thousands of dollars," said Cary White, an IT manager at a financial services company in San Diego who acted on a letter from Microsoft. "We received a letter addressed to our CEO that they received a tip we were not compliant with Windows, Word and Excel.
"My company is to completely go away from Microsoft," White said. "We're not going to buy any more Microsoft products. It's my decision. They're alienating their customers. I don't trust them."
The fear factor
For the BSA and Microsoft campaigns to work, the fear factor is essential, according to letter recipients contacted by eWeek.
"[Fear] is the first emotion when you get the letter. It's like, 'Oh my God, the Gestapo's coming,'" said Robert Fuller, president and chief operating officer of R.E. Fuller Engineering Consulting, a one-man company in Camas, Wash.
The BSA has struck fear in customers' minds through carefully worded, but threatening letters and an accompanying radio ad blitz warning businesses to beware of disgruntled employees dropping dimes on them.
According to the BSA's Kruger, the Truce Campaign is merely a 30-day grace period companies can use to get their software in compliance. If a company does use the time to get in compliance, it will avoid any potential future BSA investigation that may spring up as a result of its radio ad blitz.
But that doesn't explain the BSA's use of what many are calling threatening language. What's troubling to businesses, besides not being informed on how they were selected for the mailing list, is the letter's accusatory tone. For example, one line reads: "If you're caught [with unlicensed software], your organization could face penalties totaling hundreds of thousands of dollars."
And while Kruger insists the Truce Campaign is not a vehicle for generating leads or tips, that contradicts the thrust of the BSA's radio spots.
For example, at one point, the announcer in a radio spot for the Truce Campaign currently running in New York asks Kruger how the BSA receives most of its leads. Kruger responds: "Most of the calls come from current or former employees. I would say to businesses that, unless you have no current or former unhappy employees, you are only one phone call away from becoming the target of a BSA investigation."
"My management's concern was that there was almost a bit of paranoia about [the Truce Campaign]," said Peter Rassmussen, a technology manager at a Midwest retailer. "There were radio ads going on at the same time that sounded like Joe Stalin encouraging you to turn in your parents."
As for Microsoft, Anderson said, it's not in the company's interest to frighten customers. "We don't want to create anxiety," she said. "It's not our interest."
Misleading the pack
Exacerbating the anxieties for companies contacted by eWeek that have received Truce Campaign letters was the seemingly intentional vagueness of the letters, vagueness that is compounded by misleading information.
For example, though the Truce letter establishes a 30-day deadline for software reviews and includes a line that states, "If the BSA contacts you, just show your Truce Participation Number and software purchase receipts to take advantage of the Truce," the BSA has no intention of contacting any letter recipient.
But at least one radio spot, the one currently playing in New York, implores letter recipients to "review your software installations and acquire the licenses you need before the Business Software Alliance returns to New York City!"
Still, Kruger insists: "We don't visit any of these companies. The ones getting the letters are not under investigation."
When asked if these discrepancies were misleading or at least confusing, Kruger said any letter recipient who is confused can go to the BSA Web site or call the Truce hot line for information.
Also at issue is ironing out exactly what authority the BSA has to present deadlines, request software reviews or even conduct audits. According to Kruger, the only authority the BSA has, as power of attorney for its members, is to seek court orders on behalf of its members to conduct software audits on businesses suspected of using pirated or unlicensed software. But even then, the BSA does not seek such court orders frivolously.
"We only proceed on the basis of reliable information," Kruger said. "We take pretty good pains here to make sure our cases are based on solid information before going forward."
Indeed. Despite the tone in the Truce Campaign letters and radio ads to the contrary, the task of proving guilt lies with the BSA.
"The burden's on the BSA to prove itself to the court," said Peter Baruk, director of anti-piracy at Network Associates Inc., in Santa Clara, Calif., and former vice president of piracy for The Software & Information Industry Association, another software advocacy group in Washington that conducts piracy investigations. "If you're contacted by the BSA and doing the right thing, you have nothing to worry about. So, why respond? You can and be a good corporate citizen. [But] there's no reason why you'd have to react to a letter like this."
Maybe they are looking for hungry new law grads (== cheap) and figure the eagle eyed ones will see a way to fill their hands with someone else's money. It's a way to filter out the ones that don't see opportunity in every ambulance.
Infuriate left and right
Your girlfriend? I don't think so, Tim...
As someone who provided the BSA with information that lead to legal action and a $250,000 settlement against a former employer, I can tell you first hand that it is not something to be taken lightly. They do periodically run these "grace periods" to give companies a chance to police themselves. But if you get a letter addressed to your company specifically that doesn't refer to a grace period, chances are they have inside information about your licensing situation. The BSA does enforce copyright law for software companies and maintains an army of lawyers to investigate and litigate allegations of software piracy.
It is not worth an intelligent man's time to be in the majority. By definition, there are already enough people to do th
I just got one of these and I'm taking the following action:
- NOT contacting the BSA. I expect this will be the last I hear from them, If they want to try an audit they can contact our legal. Nothing would amuse me more than the possibility of unleashing a pack of rabid lawyers on weasels like this.
- Doing an internal audit. I believe in compliance and any company that doesn't *WILL* get screwed. Just because the BSA itself has no legal authority doesn't mean they can't press for criminal charges or initiate a civil suit. An 'audit' could very well be part of a 'discovery' process and 'dicovery' is a serious pain in the ass.
- Taking the opportunity to remind users who get *broad* lattitude (no net filters, no email scanning, no bandwidth metering, new hardware every couple of years or less, reliable backup, lots of tools and training, and prompt support) that there are limits.
- Secretly hoping I one day get the opportunity to really let these people have it. I've spent too much money on my own software and advocated compliance too long and hard with my clients to take kindly to being shaken down. I'm a vengeful chap and I am VERY patient.
Just today I was telling a friend about the BSA (he had never heard of them) and their "hired goons" tactics. When I went to show him the BSA web site, we got a popup telling us about the Opaserv worm. I had never heard of it before, but according to the BSA it is "a malicious act that tricks victims into believing that the Business Software Alliance has shut down their computer due to licensing issues".
I can't say I can condone any virus/worm, but come on, that's dang funny. Probably not very funny if you get it, but I think it's the most clever use of worm I can remember.
I worked at a small, poorly-run brokerage firm this summer, and witnessed the stupefying power of the BSA first-hand. They drummed up a lot of publicity by having the local papers run several stories about regional busts they had made (both of which were the result of disgruntled ex-employees turning in their former employees), and buying some ad space on local radio stations. Then the letter came, and my boss, not knowing much about the ways of legality and whatnot, promptly allocated over $15k for systematic re-purchase of all software currently installed on the computers. Most of the progs were fairly up-to-date, and many (but not all of them) were properly licensed. Moral of the story; this is a scam, albeit a very effective one, as it is supported by legitimate businesses engaged in an underhanded approach to bolster their own sales, and I have a feeling that many more bosses than just my own went out and needlessly spent large sums of money in fear of being found "not in compliance".
IANAL
." An "enterprise" is defined to include "any individual, partnership, corporation, association, or other legal entity, and any union or group of individuals associated in fact although not a legal entity; . . ."
Just doing a quick lookup on racketeering and RICO I came across this definition.
The statute's definition of "racketeering activity" includes "any act or threat involving murder, kidnapping, gambling, arson, robbery, bribery, extortion, dealing in obscene matter, . . . which is chargeable under State law and punishable by imprisonment for more than one year . .
Since the BSA is sending letters threatening an investigation in an attempt to scare you into buying more software, it sounds like extortion.
Maybe you could turn in the BSA (or Microsoft for that matter) and get all their assets siezed!!!
We've had dealings with these guys before. On talking to our lawyer, apparently the BSA (at least here in Australia) can obtain the equivalent of a search-warrant. They need to have reasonable proof to get one - hence the ex-employee-ratting-out tatic. They require an insider that has a reasonable chance of having knowledge of the target-companies systems. Once they get the court-order, they are allowed to tell everyone at the business to shut down all computers until they are cleared with the BSA. So while the letters are designed to scare businesses into admitting their culpability, your chances of actually being audited are pretty small.
Why not apply for software donations?
Seriously, it sounds like half of the complaints that people here have with software licenses and/or pricing is that they are misapplied to you.
If you are a computer geek running a server in your basement, a $1500 license for windows advanced server isn't going to be worth it, but you still want the software so you can learn how to work with it and be better prepared to use it at work. To me, that sounds like you should be screaming for a hobbyist license rather than pirating it from work.
If you wouldn't purchase it anyway, I'm sure the software company would rather have reasonable compensation rather than have you pirate their software.
Petition for hobbyist and student licenses!
I registered for COMDEX a couple years ago under the name of a company I was employed by; it was a three or four person company, and I won't comment on their licensing schemes here.
Regardless, I have gotten two letters in the last week -- one from the BSA, one from Microsoft -- saying I could be liable for an audit.
I'm no longer employed by the company, and the letters were sent to my dorm room. Will these guys come in and ransack my place? I'm running all Free Software but I still would rather avoid having the BSA tramp across my new floor rug.
More than that, the parent company of COMDEX is now bankrupt. This is the first time I can remember getting actual mail addressed to me as a programmer -- did COMDEX sell my info to stave off bankruptcy? Or did they always have that policy?
This is very, very nice... but hopefully he automates the data stream (to avoid it becoming a pain for him) AND ensures nothing irrevant gets sent, because instigator can surely then sue him for costs.
As someone who provided the BSA with information
Why on earth would you do that? What motivation would there be for you do to such a thing?
To make laws that man cannot, and will not obey, serves to bring all law into contempt.
--E.C. Stanton
FIRST, I MUST SOLICIT YOUR STRICTEST CONFIDENCE IN THIS TRANSACTION. THIS IS BY VIRTUE OF ITS NATURE AS BEING UTTERLY CONFIDENTIAL AND 'TOP SECRET'.
WE ARE TOP OFFICIAL OF THE GOVERNMENT REVIEW PANEL ("BSA") WHO ARE INTERESTED IN PIRATED SOFTWARE INTO OUR COUNTRY. IN ORDER TO BECOME COMPLIANT WE SOLICIT YOUR ASSISTANCE TO ENABLE US TO AUDIT YOU.
HOWEVER, BY VIRTUE OF OUR POSITION AS BSA COMMITTE MEMERS, WE CANNOT ACQUIRE THIS SOFTWARE IN OUR NAMES. I HAVE THEREFORE, BEEN DELEGATED AS A MATTER OF TRUST BY MY COLLEAGUES OF THE BSA TO LOOK FOR AN UNDERLICENSED PARTNER WHO WE CAN AUDIT. HENCE WE ARE WRITING YOU THIS LETTER. WE HAVE AGREED TO SHARE THE MONEY THUS; 1. 20% FOR THE BSA 2. 80% FOR THE UNLICENSED SOFTWARE VENDOR 3. 2 - 5 YEARS FOR YOURSELF.
PLEASE,NOTE THAT THIS TRANSACTION IS 100% SAFE AND WE HOPE TO COMMENCE THE AUDIT LATEST SEVEN (7) BANKING DAYS FROM THE DATE OF THE RECEIPT OF THE FOLLOWING INFORMATIOM BY TEL/FAX; 234-1-7740449, YOUR COMPANY'S SIGNED, AND STAMPED LETTERHEAD PAPER THE ABOVE INFORMATION WILL ENABLE US WRITE LETTERS OF THREAT. THIS WAY WE WILL USE YOUR COMPANY'S NAME TO INTIMIDATE YOU WITH QUASI-LEGAL LETTERS.
WE ARE LOOKING FORWARD TO DOING THIS BUSINESS WITH YOU AND SOLICIT YOUR CONFIDENTIALITY IN THIS TRANSATION. PLEASE ACKNOWLEDGE THE RECEIPT OF THIS LETTER USING THE ABOVE TEL/FAX NUMBERS. I WILL SEND YOU DETAILED INFORMATION OF THIS PENDING PROJECT WHEN I HAVE HEARD FROM YOU.
YOURS FAITHFULLY,
DR CLEMENT OKON
Read reviews of shopping cart software
BSA targets particular cities and/or business types and sends out blanket letters to companies that meet the requirements. You can get a list of targeted cities on BSA's web site:
http://www.bsa.org/usa/events/
Any sales increase in the city immediately after mailing of the letters gets BSA money. Now the letters don't really have an affect if they can't show they sometimes follow through.
The BSA will then go after certain targets either ones they think are particularly egriegous or they have pretty good proof of violations (the BSA has registration/purchase info from their member organizations plus any public informaion about companies so they can see a company with 1000 employees appears to only own 100 copies of Office -- this may be legit).
So, the BSA will ask for proof of purchase for software from their member organizations (their ability to do this given in the license agreement for most software). Note SERIAL NUMBERS AND CD'S ARE NOT PROOF OF PURCHASE. You MUST HAVE RECEIPTS!
If you refuse they can file an civil copyright infringement lawsuit against you and can ask the court to impound the computers as evidence. They can also ask the prosecuting attny's to bring criminal actions against you.
Details of why the BSA has the law on their side:
http://www.bsa.org/usa/antipiracy/law/
I'd say for a small organization you're probably safe -- unless you had somebody get pissed off at you and reported you to the BSA and raised their awareness of your company from mailing address to red light.
Under current US law the BSA acts legally. If you disagree with this you can choose software that has no such problems (i.e. open source, free software) or you can work to change the law while obeying it or you can start some kind of civil disobedience (just remember -- if you break the law you still have to pay the price for breaking it, even for good intentions. many civil rights fighters ended up in jail to prove their point, if you can't afford the price don't use this method).
I prefer a mix of 1 and 2. I don't think the right to copy other people's software is worth jail time to go the disobedence route.
They sent a letter from a mailing list to my home address, to a made up business name that I put on some magazine subscriptions. Considering that I've never registered with my name any of my win32 software, I find it strange to be getting a letter.
Trashed and I never thought about it again.
Besides, I make a point of being legal for all my software - I know what bought my house, cars, clothes, etc... everything I own. I'm a professional software developer, I know where my living comes from and I respect other developers.
Bowie,
Er, what's a Project Founder?
Not being rude, but I'm curious and it's not self-explanatory (or I'm particularly stupid).
Tim
a few years ago. We went through the process of using their "self-audit tool" (Gasp I think?). As the "new" IT person I got the (nasty) responsibility for assessing the situation and bringing us into compliance. The problem we found wasn't with "commercial" software such as Microsoft, etc.; what we did find was shareware being used/abused. We ended up purchasing licenses for several products (Winzip, CuteFTP, etc) that people "needed" but never bothered to put a requisition in for. Additionally we ended up rolling out Win2k and instituted some control over who could/couldn't install software etc. It was a time consuming process analyzing the data and such as the program listed *EVERYTHING* including all of the standard windows utilities such as the calculator and such. Bottom line was that the odds were probably better that I'd get by lightning than for them to have came in; but it needed to be done and the letter made it a priority with our owners so I can't fault the process.
(They also munged our address a few different parts of the firm's name, I'm surprised it even showed up in the mail.)
Nothing in there suggests any legal authority.
:)
:/
:)
They don't make their move without 'teeth'.
Their authority usually come from support of local Government. In our case the local Custom supply informtion to BSA for their investigation, because our Government is so gullible in believing BSA is really a non-profit organization for the humanity.
When it comes to the legal action, they need someone to report to them, probably a disgruntle employee you just fired. Haven't you seen the ad encouraging you to betray your employer for that $15,000 reward?
What's next is to get a warrant. Say someone in your company is report to BSA you are using an illegal copy of Windows XP. Then Microsoft has the legal right to seek authority in Government help in investigation. Of course BSA can't represent the 'victim'(Microsoft in this case), but out of mistery those 'victim' will grant right to BSA to represent them. You see BSA is a non-profit organization subsidize by, you bet, Microsoft, Oracle, Novell, IBM, etc.
So the best advise is to treat your employees good. They can't do anything if nobody turn you in. (yeah I know it's difficult.)
Personally, I refuse to play. I will not purchase any software from any company that employs the services of collection agencies such as the BSA. Furthermore, I will do everything in my power to dissuade my clients from purchasing software from these companies.
Need a Linux consultant in New Orleans?
No company can barge into a business and demand to be allowed to search unless there already exists an agreement to that effect. Typically, the only people really subject to this are companies with site licenses or subscriptions to certain programs, such as Microsoft products. And in that case, only the vendor can do it.
Aside from that, you can't be "audited" by the BSA. If they have evidence or accusations against a company, they can turn it into local law enforcement, who may show up at the front door with a representative of the vendor as a witness.
Even aside from that, it's good practice nowadays to have good software control. Even if you can't produce the certificates, receipts or transaction records can also show valid proof that something was bought.
And if you really have warez, well, it's time to wire in EMP devices into your HDD cages in each machine and wire them to a central switch.
We had the BSA sicced on us by a disgruntled ex-employee. We didn't receive one of those mass mailed letters, we received a bona-fide messenger delivered packet from the BSA, naming specific software titles. Also in the letter was their "gracious" offer to do a self-audit and orders to report the results of the audit to them. Failure to comply with their demands would result in the BSA taking us to court, getting a court order to come in and conduct an audit themselves, with their software and people,and under the eyes of either the State Troopers or US Marshals to make sure that we didn't interfere.
So we did an audit and found out that we were only one copy of a certain software title out of compliance. We sent back the results of our audit, along with copies of our licenses to the BSA, along with an offer to buy the extra license at full retail price. They replied that our licenses and audit results were not good enough, that they also wanted us to produce the receipts for the software.
The receipts. Apparently, having the licenses are not good enough. Or maybe the BSA figured they could strongarm some money out of us, so they leaned a little harder. I had heard that before the BSA sends out these demands, they research the company to see if they have enough cash to make their efforts worthwhile. Having recently completed a series of capital funding, I suppose we looked mighty tempting.
This meant many days of going through three years of financial records. Eventually, we found most of our reciepts and purchase orders, except for a few things from the very beginnings of the company when the records weren't really kept. But we did have the licenses. Of course, the BSA, now really smelling blood, came down with an arbitrary amount to fine us along with a statement that if we did not pay this (ridiculous) sum for basically being one copy out of compliance, they would take us to court and demand far more.
I was never told how much exactly we had to pay the BSA, but I heard it was "not insignificant". It was somewhere in the 5-figure range. All for one copy of Visio, and some tossed receipts from three years ago.
I always argued that the BSA had no right to demand our receipts and financial records since we were able to produce the software licenses. It's a bunch of crap. I can't see how the BSA can legally operate in this country. There is another organization that operates in a similar fashion- it's called the Mafia. Bastards.
Just burn a couple of dozen copies of Knoppix and keep them in the drive trays. Then if BSA comes a knockin, just cut the power, when you reboot all evidence will be lost.
Choke on it dickheads.
heh.
They are just copying what Jessie Jackson does to 'help pressure' companies into handing protection money so 'bad' PR is not generated.
8 95 261650/qid=1044503089/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/103-855440 5-1087059?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
see "Shakedown: Exposing the Real Jesse Jackson" by Kenneth R. Timmerman at
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0
BSA once sent me a threat letter. The company was legitimate but had only one employee (me), though I used to put 10-15 employees on surveys and convention registrations. Not thinking, I'd disposed of the letter then. If/When I get another one I'm going to tell them to show me something from their attorney and the law and essentially, shove the audit up their ass. Why? I'm 100% Microsoft free. I'm using Linux/MacOS desktops, Wordperfect or OpenOffice for word processing, Apache/Linux for web servers, etc.. I hope other companies do the same.
I also recently received a letter from the BSA. I read it several times, and even disscused it with a few friends (who said I should frame it and put it on the wall). The thing that struck me the most after reading the letter was the "implied guilt". Then, just three days ago I received another letter only this time from Microsoft saying that I better use the "BSA grace period" to make sure I am licensed.
Now I can understand that they want to curb piracy of software but, I realy do not like receiving letters "implying" that I may be running or using illegal software.
But I would have to agree that this is just nothing but a scare tactic or a attempt to EXTORT money. On a scale of 1-10 this would have to rate an 8 on the FUD meter.
BSA: We want to run this auditing software on your computer.
Me: Do you have a linux version? Oh wait, I might be able to run it under wine...
"I bow to no man" - Riddick
The BSA is a trade organization much like the MPAA, RIAA, IDSA, and former SPA (which is called something like the SIIA now or something, I've forgotten). They possess no legal power whatsoever, but they are watchdogs and they do cause a lot of trouble for both big-time pirates (they brought down #warez4cable and were involved in the PWA [pirates with attitude] case). The most they can do is threaten you and rat you out to the real authorities.
A word of advice, though. Regardless of being able to produce the original CDs, the FBI will almost certainly not persue anyone who's done less than $5000 USD worth of damage to a company in estimated loss sales (the FBI simply doesn't have the resources) - they DEFINATLY wont go after a small non-profit that lost a few CDs. Irregardless of that, unlike the BSA, the government actually has to produce enough evidence to convince a judge to grant a search warrent. So don't worry, you can safely ignore any messages from the BSA.
Yes, they are probably fishing...throw a line out and see who will bite. I wonder what would happen if someone was completely uncooperative with them. Remember, *they* have the burden of proof. They have to have some evidence (like testimony) that you are running illegal software.
Oh wait, this is post-911. Is there still a burden of proof before someone is found guilty? I know trails and lawyers aren't necessary any more (see the Jose Padilla story).
Kind thoughts do not change the world
A landlord has the power to enter your "home," and is specifically granted this power under some state laws. At least in my state, they must have a reasonable justification, AND give advance notice; they can't just barge in willy-nilly (IANAL).
Still, even if you rent rather than own, even your local police department needs a search warrant to enter your apartment. Also, if a person legally consents to a search, that consent can be withdrawn at any time. At that point, a search warrant is required. How is some kind of private "trade group" going to bypass that little requirement? Even if you clicked some EULA, I don't see how you can give up your Fourth Amendment rights with the click of a mouse. The police have much more power than some trade group, and if they need a warrant, how can some trade group skate by without one? Any lawyers want to comment?
I'd like to see these guys try it, quite honestly... just like that rental car company that was levying fines based on their GPS spy-unit speed measurements... they were denied. Private organizations/businesses don't have the power to levy a fine; that power belongs to the State.
If they were bold enough barge into your home unannounced, with no legal authority to do so, it would be at least Breaking and Entering, or even Burglary (if you were home at the time). If they threatened you in the process, it would be Aggravated Burglary, and you might even be justified in some self-defense. Somehow, I suspect a bunch of software-licence-hunting bean counters are not up for that kind of action.
Even if they do have some sort of "compliance inspection" in their EULA, it's just begging for a court challenge if they force the issue.
If you click a button saying "it's OK to shoot me," don't doubt for one minute that somebody would go to prison for a very long time if they actually pulled the trigger.
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
Remove "Grace Period" from the question.
Then the answer is a resounding "yes".
-Rob
Uh, revenge. He was probably horked off at his previous employer. Not saying that it's right or that he should have done that (or that he shouldn't - maybe the employer was a bastard of legend, who knows). I'm just saying that it's not exactly unknown.
Advice: on VPS providers
I received one of these for a nonprofit that doesn't exist and never existed. I think they are just grasping for straws. If they come to me demanding access to the nonprofit's computers, it's simple for us. They don't exist.
There is criminal law and there is civil law, certain rights and expectations apply in the one but not the other. Then there is the fact that property, being not a person, has no legal rights and is therefore guilty until proven innocent.
these gestapo tactics, and MS's incredibly obnoxious and confusing licensing designs are forcing people *away* from using software by the bsa companies.
Even with their price increases and crackdown on piracy, is having to lower their prices to try stop their market losses.
I used to know companies that believed in microsoft products all the way. Now, even they are starting to hate microsoft.
Lovely. Microsoft will put themselves out of business through their own success.
Are you posting to slashdot and not using linux? Geeze, if you use linux you don't have to worry about "paying for software."
Seriously though I'd say it was just spam.
-Chris
considered sending them bills anonymously
You can't judge a book by the way it wears its hair.
Sorry, I am a little late to this discussion.
.
Here's my advice. Do not reply to any email. tell your employee's not to reply to any email. Do not reply to any letters, tell your employee's not to reply to any letters.
Because . .
If you DO reply, then that gives them everything they need to audit you.
This is exactly the way Government does it. Ignore the bastards.
Love Music? Got a Band? Are you a Label? http://garageradio.com
In what way does this statement differ from "I have a job?", besides using large obfuscatory words?
And Ben Dover ain't pretty but you're going to get it so you may as well enjoy it.
one of my client did return the audit form with a letter saying that the only license they got is GPL and a copy was attached for their reference.
Then Microsoft sales came the other week and offered an attractive 'switch' packages. How Microsoft knew he need a switch is a mistery.
1) SPAM all businesses with lawyer letters claiming damages of millions of dollars with a 30 day payment deadline.
2) ???
4) profit!
If I started doing this, I would get sent to jail for fraud. Maybe someone should check into it.
Two infinite things: your stupidity and mine. But I'm not sure about the latter. If my sig offends you, I'm sorry.
Check out:
http://archive.infoworld.com/articles/hn/xml/02
It's the best revenge because it hits the BSA where it hurts.
I'm starting to lose patience with any government or nonprofit entity that has so much spare money it won't make 2003 the year of Open Source.
So much work tracking computers and software wasted... And the money of course. I got nice OT though so GO BSA!
All my software is free software. Well, my Gamecube games aren't, but I don't think they do software audits...
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
To me it's almost like random extortion.
Pay up or pay out the nose. True the company
can opt out and not participate but they elude
that they will impose penalties.
I'm all for being legal but extortion is extortion.
Here's a question, if piracy is rampant as MS
suggests regarding its products, why do they
report such a huge profit margin for their
productivity tools?
They both have to be invited in before they do harm...
They both have no legal power...
They both need to suck YOUR blood to survive...
They both live on victims...
They both seem to live forever...
and finally
They both are related to M$...
In a business environment I can understand that there is a requirement to keep receipts of purchases including software just for accounting purposes. But what about home users? There are several legit ways to obtain software that do not result in a receipt of any kind. What about Christmas presents? What about the OEM copy of WinXP Home Edition that was traded for a PS2 with my buddy who's running RedHat on his Laptop? What about the accounting software, where the box and original CD disappeared from the office but the backup copy is still around?
My point is that since when do I have a legal obligation to retain receipts of my purchases, whether it be a product I own or a license to use some product?
As far as backups are concerned, I keep copies of all commercial software I own and use. I use the copies to install and keep in my CD drive, I hardly ever the originals. So if I loose the original or can't produce it when asked I am now guilty of stealing?
Am I a criminal just because my record keeping sucks?
i think this is a stupid question
If you don't have an Open License agreement with MS you have nothing to fear -- but fear itself you lame commie! Ben Dover has better rumps to roast.
Tell them you run an all linux shop. Then they will have to prove you accepted thier agreement before they can audit you.
Who says we start a mass call-in to thier 1-888 number from phone booths? Watch thier phone bill rise and have a literal DDOS of thier phone system! I plan to call in reports for the following orginazations over the next few days. Microsoft and other BSA members along with the IRS, NSA (You can look at our computers but then we would have to shoot you), CIA, FBI, Delta Force (can you audit something that dosen't officially exist?), just to name a few.
http://www.bsa.org/usa/about/members/
iRepairIT - iPhone, Mac, & PC Repair
And they keep the abortion quack away. I got that from Ben Dover hiself.
Posting anonymously for good reason:
.
My current employer is an academic group of about 25 people. We have workstations for every person, and a few extras besides. Some run Linux, but the majority run Windows.
We pirate like crazy. The people who have a clue object to this; frankly, we think the group should either play fair, or use Linux. The problem is that the rest of the group hates Linux and wants to use Windows for everything, but doesn't think it's worth paying for. So we have the same copy of Windows 2000 on ten machines, along with the same Acrobat, the same Office. .
Sure, we probably have (in theory) more licenses than this, but they were lost long ago and no one in the group gives a shit anyway. Of course since there are Linux admins but no Windows admin it's even worse. People routinely make their own personal copies of group software, which they hoard and take home to install on their computer, their girlfriend's, their parents'.
Seriously, the group could use a good BSA ass-kicking. Maybe it'd convince people (including The Boss) to switch to Linux for more stuff, once they realize how much it would cost to legally have all those Adobe installations.
Perhaps the parent poster was disgruntled. Perhaps he saw colossal mismanagement and felt that something needed to change. Perhaps, even, he simply decided that the company should follow the law, and would not do so unless forced.
I despise Microsoft and the BSA. However, if you're going to use their software, you should pay for it. I do not want to pay for Office- it costs twice as much as my last computer- so I use LaTeX and AbiWord. They're not much, but I'm happy with my choice. Others should be as honest.
Oddly enough, a web page I visited had a BSA add with a voodoo doll telling you to stick you boss "where it hurts" and then to select a pin. Selecting any of said pins then stabs the doll and you get to go on to the "whistle-blower" page. Not only was I disgusted with the add, I was also disgusted with any of their affiliates who enjoy this tactic of extortion, intimidation, and blatant "protectionism". Isn't that what the Mafia does, "protect" you from harm they may inflict?
What exactly do you mean by "Don't touch this button?"
Unfortunately, since this would not be a criminal case but rather a civil case, you might be up the creek and have to defend yourself.
But an anectdote from a year or two ago... a small business owner told the BSA field agents to take a hike. They came back in an hour with US Marshalls and a warrant. They're running a well-oiled legal shakedown machine. That's why everything I run is properly licensed, GPL, BSD, Apache... it's all licensed. I wiped the Windows boxes when I got a BSA letter about 18 months ago. I wonder how many other small businesses will do the same when they get their shakedown letters.
so they "pirated" software. here is the result:
one, it doesn't cost the software companies a thing. you steal a car, it takes steel, rubber, plastic from somewhere. you make a DIGITAL copy, it costs software co. nothing. and many of the "pirates" wouldn't have bought the software.
two, the people using the software are not using a cheaper alternative. why would you use OO.org, when ms office is "free". so, piracy destroys competition. i remember there used to be at least three major office suites. corel, lotus, and office. in fact, office 97 offered wordperfect and lotus 123 keystrokes, BECAUSE THEY HAD TO. but "piracy" reduced the market share of the other two to nil
three, "piracy" promtes sales. as one program and one format becomes the "standard", especially if it is closed, peopole eventually all have to get on board. and not everyone or every business can "pirate".
i am as big a free market economy guy as you can get. i am as low tax and low regulation as you can get. but this whole piracy thing is bullshit. and they know it.
My problem? I was perfectly gruntled, until some numbnuts came by and dissed me.
Company I worked for was targeted by MS; there was a HUGE fuss to turn up all the licenses for MS products. I'd never seen the bigwigs get so whipped up about something save a virus infection.
About a week later, we got a policy statement saying Linux and Solaris(which represented half of our servers in our branch office) were no longer to be used, and all said systems would be converted over to Windows 2k. Funny fucking thing, but half of our customer installations and such were unix(the product ran on win and unix.) We told them to take a short walk off a long pier, and they came back and said each box would be evaluated on a individual basis(and the threat was it would be a battle the whole way, on every box.)
Something stinks in Redmond and it ain't Billy's feet.
I say.. how?
If you don't respond, they may investigate you. That's cool. That's their perogative. If they want to start investigating me, they can go right ahead.. they still have to abide by the law.
That means: Can they send an email to my company,look to see if the reply came from an exchange server, then ask microsoft if we bought exchange? Sure. Can they walk in the door and demand that we run software? Absolutely not.
They can "investigate" all they want. The only people that can force you to do anything, however, are the courts.
ignore them. they seem to be sending this to everyone.
I've gotten one for every corporation I have been named on (I am a member of a few LLCs) about 3 months after incorporation. Even "shelf" companies that don't have any active business yet. My favorite was the one using the name/address I used for my MSDN Universal subscription. I am not sure why MS violates their own privacy "labeling" but what do they expect they'll find, I installed some package on 11 computers instead of the ten allowed (for certain products) on my personal machines... JUst calming down and remembering that the Mac OS X distribution comes with cool development tools, OPEN Office for OS X, etc... And, Apple gives back to the open source community, unlike MS. (Darwin, changes/improvemts in the KDHTML? engine in Safari, lots of prior funding for Linux on Power PC, etc.)
Software groups like MS and Adobe empower the BSA to investigate and recoup software piracy costs. The BSA gets evidence that a company might be pirating software then works with local law enforcement on a raid.
The BSA itself doesn't have the power to raid your business, but they can and do use the local authorities to raid businesses.
Solution? Don't use products whose companies are a member of BSA.
I sent them back a message with a copy of the GPL attached, and told them that it covered all my installed software.
I did admit that one of the machines here had come with Windows installed, but I'd erased the disk and installed linux, so although I actually do have one Windows license, I'm not using it. I offered to sell it to them.
I haven't got a reply yet (and it's been a couple years).
Really; why tolerate a shakedown like this? Just send letters to the sales people at all their member companies, saying that this sort of extortion has persuaded you to switch entirely to Open Source software, and that since they support the BSA, you are afraid to buy any software from them. Don't send letters to the BSA; write to the companies that actually sell the software.
Maybe if enough of us do this, it'll get a message across.
Who are their members now, anyway? Do we have a complete list?
Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
All you need is an invoice showing you've paid. That's it, really. And because your company is a non-profit, they'll likely have all expense reports back 5 years (as they get audited very frequently).
You're a -small businessman-. You're trying to -make a small profit- and -stay afloat-.
... although if you -do- try this, you might want to try -real hard- to find those CDs.
You -pay taxes-.
It's his job to shoo away criminals. Get an appointment and explain how these clowns are keeping you from doing things that make money, and which law lets them get away with that trash.
I dunno if this is a good idea, but ask HIM if HE can tell you where all his software licenses are. Would HE like to be audited? Have his computers impounded?
Tell him you expect him to keep it from happening. Express disappointment in his votes for those laws. Praise his negative votes.
Yahoo! Pipes are awesome. How awesome? http://pipes.yahoo.com/jesdynf/slashdot
...In the NT admin forum. Article is here.
id reply saying yes we had XX number of illegal licenses thanks for letting us know, we now removed all said software replaced it with open source.
I won't pay for the software either!
Well folks, here's dangerous information that makes me a terrorist by telling you this:
There's this little thing called the Constitution that contains a little thing called the Fourth Amendment. This Fourth Amendment gives you the right to tell any number of these people to F--- OFF when they come knocking on your door without a search warrant, etc. To pay you a vist with a warrant, etc. in the first place, they have to have probable cause... So don't give them probable cause.
Now I know that we live in the recently-converted U.S.S.A. which is a pathetic facsimile of Pre-Nazi Germany, and thanks to Bush signing the Patriot Act and Homeland Security Act the Constitution has been pretty much disbanded, but you can still use your Constitutional Rights (Assuming you live in Amerika) until the New World Order finishes pissing on it, passing it through a paper shredder, and burning the remains.
If I was you, I would just recommend switching over to Linux with a virtually infinite amount of combinations and write a letter back to these fine folks saying, "Dear Fascist Bastards, thanks to your letter, you can tell Microsoft and every other Mini-me Nazi that supports you, that we have decided to choose since we're tired of being pushed around. F--- You, F--- Your Mother for making the mistake of giving you birth in the first place, and most importantly, F--- Off."
...by the local sheriff with a search warrant. Otherwise, the rep will be introduced rather quickly to a slamming door in the face.
:)
The BSA as a whole is a scam, and I agree that it should be brought up on racketeering charges. Al Capone was a gangster, but at least he ran soup kitchen's for poor families. We'll forget for now that it was off ill-gotten gains.
Government's idea of a balanced budget: take money from the right pocket to balance...oh who am I kidding?
run a site with nothing but OSS/freeware/Mac OS.
... because i'm an a-hole....
Call BSA pretending to be a "disgruntled ex-employee"...
have them come out a few times... make them waste their time and money...
finally, when they seemed really really frothed, let them in....laugh hysterically at them.... then show them the door.
at least, that's what i'm planning to do here in the near future when i start my business. I'll tape/record everything and let you all know how it goes.
guns kill people like spoons make Rosie O'Donnell fat.
It would be useful to know BSA "target" cities. Then local LUG's could coincide their InstallFests during the same months.
Is the BSA almost single-handedly making the case for the adoption of open-source in non-profit orgs?
Steve Magruder, Metro Foodist
The solution, of course, is to ditch all the BSA software. No software, no audit.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
when they stop discriminating against homosexual leaders.
The easiest way out would just be to pirate all of your software, that way you never agreed to a licensing agreement and the BSA can't come busting down your door without a search warrant. Oh wait, this is Ashcroft's America...nevermind, doing that would be doubleplusungood.
At the top of the sponsored links:
& ba nner_id=10004115
Want to get even?
Make your boss pay! Report illegal software.
http://1.httpads.com/httpads/click.php?sid=2543
Redirects to:
http://www.bsa.org/usa/report/report.php
Note that the BSA is using PHP!
Server: Apache/1.3.27 OpenSSL/0.9.6g (Unix) AuthMySQL/2.20 PHP/4.1.2
X-Powered-By: PHP/4.1.2
I wonder if BSA member Microsoft knows that....
MDC
Do you have ESP?
before you mod me down, really read this post because it fits a theme I've been noticing lately.
Ever notice how everyone tries to be the enforcer? Corperations, media mogules, senators and even your local legislators? It seems these days people want to be in charge, or the authority trying for a power grab they can't achieve and throwing in some new speak to throw off the commoner who isn't educated enough to know the difference between REAL authority and a scam or fake.
The BSA is just another example to me.
Dunno, just my 0.02c. Mod away
I own a domain and based on the DNS records the BSA spammed me with this piece of shit. They had no inside information from anyone.
Furthermore, an acquaintance attempted to get Microsoft itself involved in his ignorant former employers misuse of licensing and they did nothing. In fact they refused to use their rights to check up on the report.
This letter is meant for BIG companies. There's no money in attacking a small guy, unless that small guy represents a good propaganda opportunity. Use the rule all experienced, knowledgable, shysty, lawyers go by
Admit nothing.
Deny everything.
Make counterclaims.
Stop fomenting fear with your lies.
Dear BSA, following your letter suggesting a self audit of our compagny, I am glad to inform you that we did indeed complete the required process.
As you suspected, it was impossible for us to account for every software package and updates/sidegrades we acquired over the last 10 years.
We carefully considered the cost of a complete research of archives and archeological search at the municipal dump, as well as the cost of re-acquiring the missing licences.
We therefore advise you that your audit letter prompted us to move to a mostly open source and free software environement. We thank you for being the catalyst in that switch, the proverbial "last straw".
The few worksations still running software from BSA members are fully licenced and these licences are available for your viewing pleasure if you so desire.
Yours trully,
me
My gut tells me that a clause agreeing to such audits in a "shrinkwrap" EULA wouldn't be enforceable, but it would be enforceable if it were in an "enterprise" agreement, or other negotiated contract.
So how did you acquire your software?
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
It would be very difficult for them to prove that you did steal software. There is no requirement that you have to keep receipts for everything you own. So if I were you, I won't worry about it.
Sending out the invisible mod points for a yuk well done.
I think you could enter into a real contract and agree to let the vendor come and inspect the machines at certain intervals, provided to got something in return like a discount or something. That is, the provision would have to be genuinely negotiated, not tucked away in the fine print of a boilerplate contract. I wonder how many businesses would voluntarily consent to something like this.
:o) I know for certain that the Seventh Circuit (Illinois, Wisconsin, Indiana) ruled in favor of the vendors, but I don't know what even that court would think of gotcha inspection clauses buried in EULA's. In other words, we should I think be held to the expected stuff int he EULA's that are so mindnumbing and crammed into little boxes that we don't read them, but not any forfeit-your-life clauses without a heads-up.
Which brings us to EULA's or shrinkwrap license. They are kinda sorta enforceable, depending on where you are.
The difference being that the IRS is a government organisation, has an obvious legal mandate to do this and you're legally obliged to play ball with them. The BSA is privately owned, has no real mandate, and you are not obliged to even answer them.
Given that apparently a LARGE number of companies (mostly smaller ones with little to no legal defense budget) are the ones being targeted by the BSA for these letters, and that there seem to be a lot of these letters going out, I am left wondering how well the BSA researches the companies before they send the letters out.
In other words, does the BSA actually know whats going on in these companies, or do they just mail out letters at random, like junk mail?
Have any of you heard of any fully OSS companies getting these letters from the BSA? And if so, what was the response?
"Our funds have never taken part in toxic or death spiral convertible financings of any sort" -BayStar's managing partne
my mom got on of these leters a while ago, kind of weird seeing as she is a lettering artist, doesnt even own a computer, nor could see ever even use one :P
I routinely receive notices from the BSA around once or twice a year. I throw them away without opening - we've not a Microsoft product in the house - all Linux (which, last time I checked, was free) and Sybase ASE (which we pay a lot for ;)).
My non-expert opinion is these are spam letters targeted at anyone and everyone who is listed as a technical contact SOMEWHERE.
Thanks,
--
Matt
You haven't agreed to a single legally binding thing. In no way does signing (let alone just reading and clicking OK) ANY sheet of paper (outside of a confession of treason) cause you to give up any of your legal rights. Such a contract is completely unenforceable and would be thrown out the second it enters court.
They can put in a clause to allow agents to crash at my house on the weekends and eat my dorritos but it doesn't mean it's in any way enforceable. Talk to an attorney. No matter how hard you try you can't sign your rights away. When it comes down to it most EULA's are slightly more valuable than toilet paper due to this fact. Hell, check your state laws. Many states have clauses in their local civil or criminal codes that basically say something to the effect that "contracts that are partially in violation of any participants rights are wholely illegal"
Do your research. Especially when it comes to your local right to privacy and to unsolicited mailings, phone calls, etc. Has it occured to anyone that "shotgun" tactics might in fact be considered SPAM. Let's get some anti-spam lawyers after their ass. Under my own state and city laws, unless I decide to bend over and say "oh yes please come in and dont' use lube" they can piss and moan all they want and that's about the limit to their "legal" recourse.
Find out about my new childrens book: SS Death Camp Criminal Batallion Go To Monte Carlo For The Massacre
The next thing you know we will all be getting letters in the mail requesting that we do a voluntary audit of our home electronics, or other valuables to make sure we are not using any stolen goods. How many people here can provide proof of purchase for all their posessions (Not that we will give a rats ass when the time comes, but it just goes to show...)
If they request the licences, tell 'em you don't have them anymore and refuse to let 'em leave empty handed.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
...do you expect them to release such information? They're on a roll, a bankroll in fact, and anything which spoke against them pillaging businesses who normally can't be bothered with the overhead of tracking every box and download associated with them would be anathema.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Oh, and if any idiot from the BSA has a problem with what I'm saying, my name is Robert Q. Campo, and my address is 881 West Harrisville Lane, Cleveland, OH 64113. Come and get me, asshole.
`For what we are about to recieve...'
Seriously, they promise to be lenient if you fess up in that period, nasty if you don't. Do you trust them?
Much better to support one of their competitors.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
A couple of places you typed "BSD" instead of "BSA."
Can I expect a similar letter from Theo anytime soon?
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Is a EULA a signed contract that will hold up in a court of law? No!
They are not even honoring the refund if you do not accept the terms.
EULAs are not law. Stop believing everything they want you to believe.
UCITA clouds the issue a bit but that was only passed in two stupid states.
Anyway, here's what happened:
We are about 1,800 employees big. We go the BSA letters about a year ago. Our legal people consulted with outside legal specialists regarding this. The result was that we caught up on licensing real fast, and we produced documentation to the BSA that proved we were legal and that was the end of the legal hassle. Of course this took about 9 months :-)
Several comments:
1) We were big enough to atract attention, and we are profitable, so we were the perfect "target."
2) No one in our company considers this a "scam." We willingly decided on our own to use commercial software and we intended to pay for it (honestly!). We did find inaccuracies on our purchasing: We had too much of some stuff, too little of other stuff. We purchased what we needed to.
3) In response to some dumb comments on here: The BSA deals with the software of its vendor members, not ALL software vendors. We were sent a list of the software producers whose products were in question.
4) Some people here have said that EULAs are invalid: Bullshit. There have been court decisions going BOTH ways, but the more recent antecedents have all been in favor of EULA validity. It can't get much clearer: If you agree to the EULA terms, you are bound by them.
5) The old "prove it" reprise: Someone here said to just ask the BSA to prove that you stole software. This is inaccurate/misleading. If you say to the BSA "prove it," then the BSA IMMEDIATELY will subpoena your receipts for your purchases (Which, they will successfully argue in court, they need to "prove it"). They CAN do this, and they DO do this. If you get to be too much of an asshole about this, they can get the court marshal to seize your computers. It has happened before...
6) There are federal statutory guidelines that indicate collectible damages. If you are an asshole to the BSA (or a software producer), they can be assholes back: I believe it was Snapple that got fined a couple million bucks because they were assholes to the BSA... Technically it is a copyright violation every time you load an unlicensed program into RAM (every time you run it). Normally this would fall under the "reasonable uses" clause thing, but since the copyright is being violated, there is no "reasonable use" to it... Therefore every time you run the program you incurr the federally-mandated minimum fine... In case you feel like bitching about this, you should know this case went to court, and was not settled out of court, as far as I know it was not successfully appealed either.
7) Does the BSA have the right to send these letters? OF COURSE! What are you going to say, "No! I want to hear these threats from Adobe!" Just get it over with... It's easier to deal with one entity, you will get it over with quicker. Ovbiously, the BSA members give the BSA authority to sue on their behalf! The EULA has nothing to do with this.
8) Lastly: If you use commercial software, it is understood by definition that you must pay for it. What the hell is the problem with that? No one held a gun to your head to force you to use AutoCAD!
The BSA has no legal jurisdiction over anybody.
I always just tick random boxes, but I might change this. If they really are searching their database for people who claim to run a 10,000-seat Windows installation, I could be in trouble.
DUH! If you buy the software as a result of the letter, then you are agreeing that you were out of compliance. You cannot say you were "extorted" to comply with a contract (EULA) you explicitly agreed to of your own free will! That's just ridiculous!
Comment removed based on user account deletion
IANAL, but something down the line that we reserve the right to make backup copies, reverse the code if necessary to obtain interoperability with our system, and any fees or charges due us if their software fails to perform as advertised.
Then, if they pull that EULA "agree" button crap, we can just pull our our purchase requisiton, which they accepted by shipping product and accepting payment.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
There is a special "independent" agency that has the right to ask police to break into your house if someone reports you are using pirated software.
And since game/internet cafes are at every block, some of the big chains actually have shares in that agency and that way they get rid of the competition (some of each, at least back in 2000, resorted to converting to linux and running it as internet cafe only)
As I read the EULA, they have the right to audit, but there is no statement that you are liable for the costs of the audit itself, even if you've misappropriated software.
Another interesting point is: have you really agreed to the EULA? In some places, yes, in some places no. Maybe the company doing the installation agreed to it, but you didn't. Maybe you bought the machine with software pre-installed and the previous owner agreed to (and broke, in most cases) the terms. Even if you have agreed, is the agreement binding? If yes, are any parts of the agreement void by law (federal, state, local)? If they have no right to even demand an audit, you should sue the BSA(A) for harrassment and/or sool the local equivalent of Fair Trading onto them. The Australian law against their practice goes by the title `Letters demanding monies, with menaces', or simply extortion.
The EULA has termination clauses. It might be useful to exercise them before audit if all else fails.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
The BSA does enforce copyright law
Since they weren't created by the government, but they are enforcing laws, I declare them to be vigilantes, which is illegal, iirc. Fight them, don't help them. Do you want to make the world a better place, or a worse place?
Like what I said? You might like my music
They probably do send those letters based on mailing lists from business magazines or professional organizations. My father is a CPA, and he gets some trade mags at our house, but he does no business at home. About a year or two ago we got a letter, I don't remeber the details, but it was threatening an audit of our software liscenses. I tossed it, the carbon copy that came three weeks later, and never heard anything more about it.
Funny, if I owned a drycleaning shop in Chicago, I bet at some point I'm going to get an advisement to buy some "insurance" to protect my shop, if you know what I mean.
They could claim all sorts of legalish mumbojumbo, but still torch my store if worse comes to worse (or drive customers away, deliver chemicals or supplies, or lower the priority of my clothes getting cleaned and pressed at the big cleaners.
In any other measure of the law, this is Racketeering.
Does BSAA raid premises?
A.Yes, the BSAA can be granted an Anton Piller order which is similar to a search and seizure warrant. If a Vendor has reasonable grounds for believing that illegal software copying is occurring within an organisation and that evidence may be destroyed if notice is given, then the Vendor may apply to the Court for an Anton Piller Order. This is an order which requires persons in charge of the premises to allow the Vendor and representatives of the Vendor to enter company property for the purpose of searching for and seizing illegal copies of software, manuals and other documents which indicate that software theft has occurred.
For obvious reasons, no advance notice is given of when the Vendor's representatives and solicitors arrive at the premises for the purpose of carrying out the search.
Material seized on the search is used as evidence in the proceedings for infringement of copyright.
So it can be perfectly legal when they break down the door. Generally they will have some police with them I believe.
I think Anton Piller was a ship that had stuff on it that was going to flee to avoid civil action and the Court Order to keep it here was used as a basis for actions like the BSAA raids.
We are selling software, OS and applications. This gave us an edge. Along with our smart business practices, we have now a monopoly.
Therefore, our gross profit margins are phantastic, over 80 %! Our cash reserve is huge - over 40 billion $.
We still don't have enough and need more, more, more. We are right right right right, nobody can touch us - right?
Wanna walk in those moccasins?
The BSA are not the police. They are not a government. Nobody has the authority to come on your property without permission. Even if they did get the police involved, the burden of proof is on them.
;)
Do I have to prove that I paid for every single item in my house that I bought years ago? I think not.
I'd love to see them audit the company where I work. Yeah, that's 200 servers, without a license in site. But we run Linux.
You've just given OSS another spiffy, shiny selling feature. By going OSS, you no longer have to waste much (if any) company time, resources, effort, or money on software compliance issues. Now, it's our duty as good little employees to make the technologically-challenged managers understand this wonderful money saving aspect of OSS.
Back almost a half century ago, when I was in the
fifth grade, I remember something very much like this.
One of the school bullies would come over to me and say,
"See them guys over there? If you give me half your lunch money,
I'll protect you from them. Otherwise, they'll take *all* your
lunch money, and kick your butt on top of that."
Different era. Same tactics.
I'm kinda curious. Just because you can't produce original software discs or documentation doesn't mean you didn't buy it. It just mean you can't prove you did. Last I checked, in the USA, you're innocent until proven guilty. They have to show that you did not get this software from a ligitimate source. If they can't prove it, that's their problem.
A friend of mine got his notice to come down for a physical during the Vietnam War. He threw the letter away.
A month later he got a call from the Draft Board. 'Why didn't you come down for your phyiscal?'
'I never got the letter,' he replied.
They sent him another letter. He threw it away.
(insert your favorite programming language DO LOOP here)
He did this for the entire Vietnam War and never got busted.
True.
it's about not paying ridiculous sums of money for it and generating ridiculous profits for the seller who then takes the money to drive other legitimate companies out of business. It's about not paying money to a monopoly who abuses it's power. It's about making software affordable for everyone. It's about not having some license Nazi banging on my door to see what I have on my machine. It's about building a competitive market where one company doesn't manipulate standard protocols so they only work with their property products and wont work with the rest of the industry. It's about a truly free(as in libre) market.
We started getting these letters when my wife passed the bar. ...but was the bar licensed?
She told them to phuck off as she gets these kinds of sales techniques all the time.
The very next day a Mocrosoft rep called out of the blue. Our MS licences werent up for renewal and we never bought anything from them recently. Coincidence?
Harelys have some parts made in Japan. How many of such does it take to make the bike in some way Japanese?
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Step 1. Report them to the FTC
Step 2. Shred BSA scam letter
Step 3. ???
Step 4. Profit!!!
Download it, register it, and see how long it takes them to send you your own, personalized letter.
It would also answer the questions asked about if it checks for installed and removed software vs only installed software.
Won't mean a hill of beans if the lawyers are on staff instead of contracted out. You can bet the BSA has got their own private squad of attorneys.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
The Biological Weapons Alliance (BWA), an association comprised of leading weapon-producing nations, has received information that your country may have illegally-duplicated proprietary weapons products installed on your bases. Specifically, your country may not have the licenses required to support all copies of Anthrax, Pneumonic Plague, and Smallpox, which are currently installed on your bases...
The BSA, AFAIK, is NOT a goverment-sponsered law enforcement agency. I see 'bsa.ORG' not 'bsa.gov' or 'bsa.fbi.gov' The BSA is a trade organization, a bunch of lawyers most likely.
...tho I did find this quote from one of the BSA VPs last year:
Therefore, they have NO right to go searching through any of my stuff or your stuff. "EULA says they can" my ass.
I'm having a hard time find any case law regarding the BSA (if you find some, post it, I'd be interested)
"...the raids would have an immediate effect on the roughly $12 billion in lost revenue from which the Alliance claims its members suffer each year."
So they're LOSING that much, which means that to actually be staying in buisness at that rate, how much MORE do they actually have to be making? I'm not advocating piracy, but suppose they're losing 30% to piracy. That means that they are MAKING 40 BILLION dollars a year in revenue.
There is very little future in being right when your boss is wrong.
There are some questions about the irs's legal standing.
WISCONSIN COMPANY PAYS SOFTWARE WATCHDOG $150,000
>I wonder how many businesses would voluntarily
>consent to something like this.
If a public corporation did this, their SEC filings would have to name names of anyone with access to financial systems as insider risks. Those individuals would have to sign SEC waivers as well, and would be subject to the same blackout periods for stock trades as anyone else with access to financial systems.
Only among the tinfoil hat crowd.
now what you'd want to do is publish name, photo, address of that assfucked judge who ordered to pay that money becuase she/he is BSAs-whore and should be avoided at all costs.
Why didn't you send them a cease and desist order, citing harassment, and claiming damages?
Sound's like a lot of people settle with these thugs, and lots more just toss the letters. The letter itself might constitute a civil offense.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
Your contract with BSA companies cannot override your constitutional right (and your organizations) to not provide self-incriminating information. As the answer to their question could possibly involve criminal conduct, you have a right not to respond, as long as the threat of criminal prosecution exists. If the possibility of criminal prosecution is removed (by a court), then you are subject to the contract provisions.
:). About as sound legally as their BSA clauses. All of this is moot, however, for 13 stations, they are not going to bother getting a court order.
In any event, assuming you post clear rules for your lab users that use of computers is for personal use only, then their agents have no right to inspect your property without a court order. Actually, probably be fun to add some click through contract to your public work stations requiring users to forgo all rights to sue
I am not a lawyer, but that's probably why I still offer free advice!
"Don't you know you're going to shock the monkey?"- Peter Gabriel
Legend has it that these evil spirits, frightening and powerful though they may be, would not venture into the domain of one's house, unless one lets them in ...
If a friggen PO-LICE officer can't look in the damn trunk when it's overflowing with cocaine, what makes you think some geeky-faced piece of shit Associate Engineer Fuckup Specialist from the BSA has any right to bring his ugly ass into your fucking business?
Dude, get a grip!
The cop's actions are backed up by the government, whereas the BSA geek's actions are backed up by Microsoft.
In light of the disparity between the authority of those two entities, isn't it totally obvious that the cop will be saying "Yes, sir" and "No, sir", whereas the BSA geek will open the exchange by ripping your pants off and bending you over the nearest table?
We shall need a nice BMW with a minority driver, innocent of any crime or criminal intent, who happens to draw attention by cruising through, say, a predominantly white upper middle class neighborhood or, alternatively, a predominantly non-white underclass neighborhood. As TV teaches us, he must be up to something.
Said driver has a malfunctioning tail light (grounds for the stop). Said driver is heard to say "Shit" in angry exasperation as the white cop, just like the last white cop before him, approaches the car (grounds for the "reasonable suspicion" of personal or public danger). Thus the cop, now fearful, orders driver out of car and tells him to submit to a frisk. Driver protests, "Hey! Why are you picking on me?" This triggers heightened suspicion in cop who, later, will state in court that the defendant resisted -- grounds for use of physical force in effecting the frisk and arrest, and subsequently for a search incident to arrest that allows the cop to dig widely through concealed areas and containers in the car. Thus far, we have an arrest, a lot of searching, and probable cause hasn't even entered into it. We're getting by quite nicely on the very flexible "reasonable suspicion" standard without any of the bothersome probable cause tests or a search warrant.
Now the the car's impounded, and what happens? The trunk is opened. It's the precinct's policy to inventory everything. And that search -- again, warrantless and without probable cause -- is constitutionally permissible because the cops aren't specifically looking for criminal evidence; oh, no, they're merely impounding and inventorying the vehicle. Bad luck for our driver if he actually had anything illegal in there...
Within recent memory the U.S. enjoyed a brief period of rich protection under the Fourth Amendment, chiefly due to the wisdom of the Warren Court, between the 1960s and early 1980s. Since that time the Rehnquist Court and other conservative benches have seen to it that the police are able to conduct warrantless searches with wider and wider authority, holding variously that the public interest is served by abrogating personal privacy and increasing investigatory protections and abilities. That has been the theory, anyway; the Drug War has been its practice. Today, your actual freedom against unreasonable search and seizure is a function of many factors, not limited to the exception-riddled case law, your skin color, the attitude of the cop who stops you, your ability to afford effective counsel, and the temper of the court.
*to the tune of 'I'm a lumberjack'* (um - kinda - use it as a general guideline)
Yes I'm your man from BSA!
I send out letters ev-ree-day!
My favorite thing I like to find
Are pe-ople with an ax to grind!
They call me with their pirate tales,
So I can help Bill increase saaaales!
Cake or Death? Cake Please!
Since they weren't created by the government, but they are enforcing laws, I declare them to be vigilantes, which is illegal, iirc.
The obligation to pursue copyright violations falls on the owner of said copyright (the BSA in this case). The gubmint only enforces copyright law through the courts.
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
Then there is the fact that property, being not a person, has no legal rights and is therefore guilty until proven innocent.
Ah yes, the basis of property seizure, right? That's one egregious hole in our legal code. IMHO, the best solution to it would be to legally tie it to its owner. Make provisions to cover lending and leasing (i.e. loaning a car to your buddy vs. renting them at Budget) and carve out an exception when you know that your renter is using it for illegal activities (some sort of accessory thing, probably).
It'll never happen, though. Too profitable for the drug warriors and local PDs
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
While you're at it, why not ditch any crap they might even try to audit, run a nice open source Linux shop, and sue their asses for harassing you?
Way back when, in the mid 90's when THe Church of Scientology went after, basically, the internet? http://www.thecia.net/users/rnewman/scientology/er lich/home.html
This man remembers quite well, in fact they go into what happened: He got all of his data at his home/office confiscated,etc. This was just CoS in their way to suppress. It looks like BSA, or whomever is behind/affiliated with them is trying the same tactic. Scare. Shock. Fear.
On a side, got disgruntled workers? Remember that Non-Disclosure form they signed? Dig that bad boy up.
Ah, I hate it when life must come down to these legal stunts. Good thing there's open source.
This useless space for sale, inquire at front desk.
First things first: any MS shop with any sense and more than 5 employees would do well to invest in an open license. An open license is an agreement between you and MS in which you are given licenses at a slightly discounted price based upon the volume and general expense of those items you purchase.
When you purchase an open license for say, an OS, you do not receive any media whatsoever. You will have to purchase a media pack that will come with a simple reg key. This is the reg key that you will can and should use on your OS installations (assuming you don't just mirror them like everyone else does).
As for the "University that got sued for millions" because they didn't have an unique license # on each machine. I don't buy that story in it's current incantation. I think you either heard it wrong or plain old don't know what you're talking about. Regardless, anyone here can find this information out on MS' Open License web page or by calling a large software reseller (CDW is friendly about this) and asking to speak to an open license rep.
Cheers,
-- RLJ
A.) Of course you don't mind posting your name and address. The BSA isn't about to come after you. What could they possibly confiscate -- your TrapperKeeper? Your dad's rusted-out pickup truck? Your mommy's diaphragm? Please. They're looking for adults, with assets...not acne-ridden children who chuckle at their Slashdot witticisms in an attempt to forget having their lunch money beaten from them at recess.
B.) A police officer "cannot" look in your trunk? Why don't you try telling him that when he tries, big fella? News flash: The law says that improperly discovered evidence may be refused admittance into a court record. It does NOT say you can do jack shit about it when Officer Soviet decides to rape your civil rights in the breakdown lane on Route 56. Sure, you can have a good laugh about it when the judge tosses your case, three months down the road...but in the meantime, you've had your car impounded, spent the night in jail, appeared in court a half-dozen times, and paid $X in lawyer's fees. Cry about it all you want. "Tough break" is what the judge'll tell you. "Dismissed!!"
C.) Just because a couple of dumbass moderators who probably play even more XBox than you decided that your witty little pseudo-rebellious bullshit was worth modding...please, don't take that as encouragement. LEARN a thing or two before you go shooting off your ignorant little lips, next time. God forbid some equally-uneducated moron reads your comment, wrongly assumes you know what the fuck you're talking about, and decides to make a belligerent ass of himself. Giving shitty advice, as you have done, at best, proves your own idiocy. At worst, it can really cause some problems for some other poor, foolish soul. Have some pity for the stupid, kid...you just may discover that you're among them.
There is basicly 3 roads out of this BSA:
* if you have paid for your software, just show them the proof of purcage.
* if you have paid but can't find the documentation, then you can hope that BSA will belive you. You will naturally increase your changes by showing doucmnetaion for all your other software, and telling them freely about your problem.
* if you have stolen the software: dont do the crime, if you can't take the time...
I'm sure your company just decided to pay something like a quarter of what it had already spent in man-hours to make the slimeballs go away, but asking for receipts is really just a bluff.
If you didn't have licenses, a civil court could reasonably decide that the preponderance of the
evidence shows you liable for damages. But to say you have licenses and obtained them illegally is a charge of grand theft, a criminal charge. They would have to prove this in criminal court, beyond the shadow of a doubt. No way they'd waste the money on that. IANAL, BIPOOTV.
-Ryan C.
-Ryan C.
Is it so much to ask that you keep a little cardboard box with the install CDs in your bookshelf? Or did some of the workers take the CDs home with them? The latter is actually legal for many pieces of software (like AutoCAD 2000), but if they actually care about the organization, they'd bring the CDs back to work. So ultimately, this is about laziness and a stupid cardboard box, or about employee theft. Take your pick.
Who checks that BSA licenses are in order?
:-)
Tell them to fsck off via a lawyers letter. Report them to the local BBB.
Write a memo to management explaining the savings they would make by moving to Linux+OpenOffice, copy to Microsoft
How many pieces of silver did you receive for this action?
IANAL. That said, there is a generally accepted legal theory that two parties cannot enter into a binding agreement if one of them could not be expected to understand that agreement, is not properly represented when entering into that agreement, or the agreement contains "fine print" conditions which defy common sense or expectation, or which are intended to deceive. There are other exceptions as well, but these are the important ones for the moment.
I say all this because the shrink wrap license ("EULA") - through which the BSA claims to derive its authority - is thus on extremely thin legal ice. In fact, I am on a neverending quest to find reference to any (any) case where any of the more onerous terms of a shrinkwrap license have prevailed in court. (UCITA, of course, changes everything - but that's a subject for another post.)
Almost all users of computers never properly understand the "contract" they have supposedly "agreed to" by using their software. They are ignorant of the need to keep and maintain records (as if their word processor was a firearm or motor vehicle), and the idea of granting some organization permission to enter their premises and inspect, demand documentation, and otherwise claim supra-police-like powers just to "insure" that they're not violating their "agreement" must profoundly, breathtakingly, and absolutely fail the test of "reasonable expectation."
In the case of copyright violations, there are criminal and civil penalties. You can sue me for stealing your software. You can also call the police on me, who may choose to arrest me and try me for said same. But enter my place of business uninvited to "inspect" or "audit" on the basis of a shrink wrap license? I don't think it flies.
Let's sum up.
The BSA claims a variety of privileges (from the EULA) which it doesn't really have. It threatens you with actions which are almost certainly illegal. Software users are unaware of their "obligations" under their "licenses" even if you consider them binding (which is asinine), and even when they attempt to follow the rules, there are many cases where it will not be possible to provide documentation "to the satisfaction of the auditor" - whose standard is arbitrary, and purposefully engineered to make it unlikely you can meet it. You are frequently given a very short time in which to reply to the ultimatum - purposefully short, to insure you will not have time to properly inspect your facilities before making a decision. Then there is the oft-cited case of schools and charities which use donated equipment for which the paperwork is not, and probably can never be, in order.
The cost of self-defense is borne by the defender in civil court. Knowing one is on the receiving end of a legally specious and improper legal challenge is one thing. Being able to afford your defense against some of the world's richer companies is quite another.
Most victims who receive this have done everything right, but have not retained all their receipts, and/or cannot afford the considerable manpower and expertise it will take to insure "not one single unlicensed copy of anything" exists on any of the machines in their organization. Consider... will even one violation, even when made by an employee in violation of a company policy, result in punitive damages?
Generally the BSA gets what it wants: a "settlement" in which they are paid not to "report" to federal authorities and/or file a questionable lawsuit. The victim pays again (perhaps many times again) for what they already own.
We have come a long way from the simple world of Best Buy which you describe.
The fact that no one understood their options or the consequences of their choices is the very thing at issue here. Extortion, coercion, and foul play describe these practices perfectly.
Groups like the BSA are not a "price to pay for preventing theft." Their tactics are both immoral and unnecessary. They have no place in the enforcement of copyright. The police are the ones whose job it is to handle software thieves. But then there'd be no money in it for anyone, eh?
Want to Know How to Cheat the GPL? Read On!
If you do business with the BSA they will be keeping tabs on you, making sure you follow your word and keep your agreements. If you do not like that - and you clearly don't - dont buy from them.
And go out of business. Slashdot readers in high school and college can talk about how "3l33t" Linux and OpenOffice.org are, but let's wander over into the real world that most businesses occupy. Businesses exchange documents in Word format. They exchange presentations in PowerPoint. Formatting matters. Features matter. Being able to hire secretaries that know the software matters. No matter how much you like Linux or FreeBSD, you won't find a talented pool of officeworkers that know how to use it.
If anything I said was substantially incorrect, businesses would be switching in droves to open source alternatives. That's how capitalism works. If it was cost-competitive to use open source in most businesses, then Windows would not have a 90+% installed base.
There is no extortion. There is no coercion. There is no foul play.
When a company has monopolistic powers, there is foul play.
The BSA here in Australia send out flyers and spam regularly to frighten people into coughing up like nice docile consumers should.
... MUCH faster than Access... I'm now installing Gentoo Linux, KDE, OpenOffice and Mozilla for our sales staff. They look a bit puzzled whe they first see KDE, but after they click the little Mozilla icon and it comes up with their email / sales database, they forget all about it and get to work...
While it is true that they can screw you big time if they catch you using unlicenced software, the chances of that are about 1:1000000 unless someone drops your name in to them, and honestly, unless you've had an IT worker leave on bad terms recently, how likely is that to happen?
I would throw the garbage in the bin where it belongs and if (BIG if) they come investigating and catch you red-handed, claim gross ignorance and point the finger back in time to one of many people how have now left the company and may or may not have installed unlicenced software without management's consent.
I would also use the situation to explain to management the merits of getting off the upgrade treadmill, and into the free world of Linux.
I just finished porting our Access XP (MySQL backend) sales system to LAMP (Linux, Apache, MySQL, PHP). It was a bit annoying for the first week while I was learning what was going on (didn't know html or php), but now I really enjoy it, and it's not hard. It took me about 3 weeks all up to recreate about 15 different Access forms / reports as web pages. And you should see how fast it runs now
Folks were handing out BSA flyers saying, "Earn 10,000 euro by reporting a company using unlicensed software". Ummmm...yeah.
I bet one gets the 10,000 euro only if it leads to a fine or law suit. Pure evil.
A brief note about economics is probably in order. The cost of making a physical CD is not what you are paying for when you buy a CD. You are paying for the cost of developing, testing, marketing, researching both that program and future programs.
That means that pirating software costs the developer the chance to recover the costs of making that software in the first place.
And before anyone mods this Flamebait, give a moment's thought to what this means for the (non-BSA member) Linux companies out there: companies with (as a rule) very good chances of going out of business each year. They spend time researching, fixing, improving the OSS software that you use regularly... but since most people download this without actually paying a penny for it, they have to find alternative routes to make money.
Now I think that there are lots of arguments for OSS, but it does make the economics much more complicated for all involved.
The facts are this:
- the BSA has no statutory powers to investigate or so on, but as a representative of various organisations, they can pursue civil action on behalf of their members: there's nothing wrong with this in theory.
- these tactics they are using are a little heavy handed, not dissimiliar to the TV licensing authority approach in the united kingdom, personally I don't like it, and the ethics are questionable, it is a form of heavy handedness.
- you say ' I know that I cannot produce the original CD's and/or documentation for some of the software that we HAVE paid for.' - well, that's your fault really, you should keep better records - try speaking to an accountant about the need to keep records for purchase of assets. No one excuses you for failing to keep proper business records of ownership (why don't you throw away the deeds to your house/property?).
- if you are eventually shown to be in violation of licensing terms, then punitive damages could actually be higher because you've already received a notification about the fact that you may be in violation - you can't claim to have been unknowledgeable.
- software costs money to produce - you might not entirely agree with the licensing terms, but how can you disagree with the need for organisations to try and enforce the terms of their agreements. personally, my life wouldn't have been so good if I had not developed commercial software for which companies were able to license/sell.
"if you have paid but can't find the documentation, then you can hope that BSA will belive you."
I'd like to suggest here that the onus is on the BSA to *prove* you stole something; at the last count, in the USA as in the UK, people were *supposed* to be "innocent until proven otherwise".
Logically, the BSA is the party potentially accusing you otherwise.
If a court falls for "there's no docs, see, it must be stolen" as sole evidence then it's a very poor court indeed.
~Tim
--
Rushing on down to the circle of the turn
The BSA seems like one of the flagships of globalisation, since it does the very same here, in Hungary.However not the BSA itself does this "investigation", but the police, usually with an "expert", who is of course trained and tought by the BSA.
:))
Unfortunately it does not receive enough publicity that it uses our tax and the police to enforce their member software firms' will on the public.
Dictatorship is not your privilege anymore, my American fellows!
Free your mind!
They employed him.
If he then performed duties that were not his the company made a mistake and have to pay to have the mistakes taken care of.
I'm pretty sure that the company didn't have a lot of computers sitting there with no OS doing nothing and now have a lot of computers with an unlicensed OS installed sitting there doing nothing.
Seeing as you are now in the responsible position it is your duty to uninstall those OS's.
It's pretty simple really.
And it is the law not the "rules", there is no hesitation.
Still, if you install Windows what do you expect. It's when not if that day will come thay the decision will bite you in the ass.
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
I've done some software coding on my own, and I suspect the BSA may be using my software in an unlicensed fashion. (I'm working on an implementation of PacWar.)
As such, and given the EULA, I would like to audit the BSA's computers to confirm that my software is not installed.
Any idea how easy a subpoena their software reciepts to confirm that they haven't pirated my code? Also, I have 'friends' who also write software and thus need to do the same thing. Who knows, the fines could be tens of thousands of dollars, and the auditing fees could also be worth thousands. I have a lot of friends who are short of cash.
It's an idle threat!
Hum... I could almost read your post "I'm happy with my choice. Others should be happy with Linux too."
I find it appalling that you would like to convince people to switch to Linux by provoking a BSA audit.
I am an academic and our lab is also a 100% Microsoft shop. I use Linux at home, but I fully endorse our Microsoft-only policy at work. Why? Compatibility and familiarity. People come in and go. Most of them don't know how to use Linux and are only familiar with the Office tools. We want them to get their PhDs as fast as possible and at present even teaching some of them to use Matlab (and yes, Octave's useless because it uses Gnuplot for plotting) takes too long. They are here to do experimental research, not to learn how to use OS ("why do I have to mount/unmount floppies? why doesn't the CD eject when I press the button on the CD-ROM?...") or how to import/export Office documents in and out of the Open Office. Manuscripts are prepared in MS Word because it would be goddamn waste of time to teach people a programming language (LaTeX). I've never gotten the point in using it anyway. It's the publisher's job to prepare the layout and if you just want to type in text, why would you want to learn an arcane language like LaTeX?
Microsoft Campus license allows us to install and copy as many MS Office and WinXP installations as we wish. We bought the Matlab 6 licenses. Downloading Adobe Acrobat's free versions for every machine is also quick and painless. As long as everybody is using Word, collaborating is easy.
The owls are not what they seem
Here's a thought, folks... Taken from the BSA letter posted here:
:) Something along the lines of "Yes... Each of these machines used $10,000 in illegal software, but since your letter, we converted them to a GPL'd software solution. Have a nice day!" >
"BSA recognizes that, for whatever reason, your company may not have managed its software assets properly. That's why from February 1-28, BSA is offering a Software Grace Period to business like yours in ANYTOWN. Please take this time to review your software installations and usage and, if necessary, acquire the licenses your business needs. If, after you have participated in the Grace Period, your organization becomes the focus of a BSA investigation, BSA will not seek to impose penalties for any unauthorized copying that occurred before February 28, (unless your organization has already been informed that it is under investigation). If BSA contacts you, just show your Grace Period Participation Nuber and the software purchase receipts. [Please see the reverse for terms.]"
Now, this is quite amusing... While it does imply that you should go out and buy copies of software to cover yourself, the term used is "acquire the licenses your business needs".
This is fun, because essentially the remainder of the paragraph goes on to state that if you do this, they agree not to prosecute you for prior unlicenced software. So essentially, the GPL, being a valid software licence, could be used to replace other software and even if they have evidence that you acted improperly prior to that, they have committed themselves to not prosecuting you. Which is nice of them
And remember, the next time MS gives you that TCO crap, that this hassle, and its attendant expenses, are part of the TCO of using software that falls under the aegis of the BSA.
Just say no.
KFG
the BSA isn't stupid. Neither is Microsoft, Adobe, AutoDesk, etc.... A bunch of those companies founded the BSA as a non-profit organization to enforce their copyrights. Basically it gives them a scapegoat "it wasn't us that raped you it was the BSA." But it's a load of crap -- the BSA acts on very few of the letters that go out (probably less than 1%) but when they do act they have all their legal ducks in a row and do so with the Authorization of their members.
Licenses & the law allow the company to appoint a legal representative for them -- that's the BSA. They are authorized to act for their member companies. That's why they can fle copyright infringment suits, that's why they can get the gov't to impound the computers (to prevent destruction of evidence via format or bulk erasers)
When they did this at my former employer, my response was pretty swift - I sent them a bill and a form to ask if they approved the hours I spend to catalog all the machines (about 1600).
I never got a response back so far.
Do you still have the invoice of the software you purchased ? If you're a company, you know you gotta keep those... .
...is a scam.
I saw a banner ad sponsored by the BSA the other day suggesting that a great way to "get back" at your boss is to report them to the BSA for using illegally copied software. Great bunch of guys... :p
Come to the University of Mars! Classes starting soon!
In fact, here it is!
2 k. gif
http://m.doubleclick.net/viewad/821789/3ways2_1
Come to the University of Mars! Classes starting soon!
Whilst you were at that former employer, did you bring the license probems to the attention of the board or other responsible people?
If you did (and perhaps learnt they didn't care, or lost your job as a result), then good, but if you didn't then I have to wonder about your motives.
In any case DO NOT LET THEM COME DO AN AUDIT! They have no right to enter your buisness, and they will not do this without a court order. And if they have a court order your lawyers can fight this easily. It is impossible for them to prove they have a shread of proof, and anything that an disgruntal ex-employee has said is hearsay.
Once they show up with the court order (and the local gendarmes), you have to let them in, correct?
In the meanwhile, can you get a lawyer, or do they prevent you from any outside communication while the audit is taking place?
Any lawyers been there/done that for an on-going search (not necessarily a BSA Audit) to provide legal cover?
Mod Karma -1: I sed bad wurds. If I cep my mouf shut, I wud be at riyses.
But then there isn't so much difference between a Concorde [>100k] and a "Tante Ju" (aka Iron Annie) Junkers Ju 52 either. True -- however, did you ever try some egrep on the registry?
Both planes are passenger planes. One is very fast, eats fuel like there was no tomorrow, has a very long range, and so on. The other one is small (13 passengers), is much slower, was operational 45 years earlier, some are still flown today, after 70+ years, is a historic milestone, etc.
No, that maps not to registry vs.
PS: "a full disk sector" is 512 bytes. You think of a filesystem block ("cluster" in FAT-speak). This would be 1-4k for ext2. And ReiserFS does pack short files, wasting far less than a block -- so your basic assumption is flawed.
Most of the BSA's power comes from EULAs which basically legalize compulsory amputation for copyright violation. In the case of an organization running all OSS software, no EULA's have been signed. No contracts have been signed and no agreements with BSA members have been made.
Such a company has vastly more legal options than a typical company that is Microsoft/Adobe all the way. Let's see:
1. Libel/Slander law. After all they have to have probable cause from someone to make that raid.
2. Laws regarding harassment. Their standard techniques are certainly harrassment if you are contractually obligated to permit it.
3. Their audits basically shut you down while they take your machines apart. There's a basis for a monstrous civil suit.
4. A really good lawyer could probably think up some criminal charges to go along with the civil charges you're going to nail them with. Get the local DA involved as well. Some people have mentioned RICO. A case could be made for it by an all OSS company.
With some perserverence their typical scenario could be turned back around on them. Settle with US and we won't break you over a wheel. The non-legal threat of extremely bad publicity for the member company they're acting on behalf of should generate some nice pressure as well. Actually, all of the above also applies to the members who think they're going to get a win for.
I say go for it.
in which he explains that all your software is legally licensed and if the BSA had any evidence against this, they shall sue you. If not, they shall cease sending you letters like this, unless they want to be sued for threatening you.
You've just described the whole idea of open source software at first.
Singularity: a belief in the "God" idea with the "demiurge" relation inverted.
http://www.bsa.org/usa/report/offices.phtml
Paste in here:
http://www.bsa.org/usa/report/report.php
Hours of fun, I promise you!
"If you create user accounts, by default, they will have an account type of Administrator with no password." KB Q293834
A friend of mine received a similar letter when he was working for a company in the UK. It was relativiely small (less than 30 people), and they weren't sure what to do, until one of the IT guys who had previously worked for Oracle in the US made a suggestion... lie.
They sent a very legal-looking response to the BSA that stated (paraphrasing here) that they had no pirated software on site and that they were a contractor to the Israeli Security Agency (they weren't of course) and that if the BSA wished to have access to the facility they would need to get joint clearance from Britain's MI5 (the British security service) and the Israeli government before they would be allowed to enter the facility. They even gave the contact information for both agencies. The BSA was never heard from again.
A man I know as a regular in my local pub owns a chain of estate agents. They have 4 branches and they own about 40 PCs and a server or two. The only BSA related software the agency uses is the Windoze OS and a few copies of MS Office which are only used by secretary's (all 100% legit). The main software used for running the agency is actually a bespoke application, developed locally by a small software house.
He got the letter from the BSA mentioning the grace period, thretening a surprise audit etc. He reponded by informing the BSA if they made any attempt to enter any of his premises he would treat the matter as aggravated tresspass and use whatever means necesary to te remove them. The was followed up with a "We are sorry you are taking this attitude, but we have a right blah, blah" letter, but after that he heard nothing.
The BSA may have a (questionable) contractual right to audit your software, what they don't have is the right to enter buildings and act like they have legal backing. I know someone who was at the sharp end of such and audit and aparently it is not very pleasant. The BSA folks do act as if they are policemen and they are very upfront.
The BSA is just a trade body, the software equivalent of the Taxidermists Association of Scotland or the Charterd Institute of Accountants. They exist only to represnt the interests of MS, Adobe etc. They have no legal powers whatsoever. Their powers of enforcement as an organisation are exactly the same as mine as an individual. If they hassle you, ignore them and tell them to sue you or go away, simple as that.
Whatever your moral stance, legally speaking software piracy is wrong. However there are existing mechanisms in place to deal with piracy. The BSA approach seems to be to squeeze the biggest amount of cash out of the existing customers of its members. What about the many SME's that have never, ever bought legit software? How does the BSA deal with these types, given that the BSA probably doesn't even know they exist? I know of several businesses who don't have one single piece of legit software, the BSA doesn't even know they exist. BTW I won't snitch on these businesses, I live in Northern Ireland and I like having knee caps.
The BSA duses extortion to make money for its members. Its picks on those who are largely 100% legit, but may have made mistakes, these are easy targets. It would seem to ignore those who are serial pirates, those who do not intend to now or ever buy software. This approach is easy for the BSA, they really should sort their priorities out.
+5 insightful
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Did the real BSA apply for any legal protection for it's acronym?
I mean the Boy Scouts of America of course...
I know they aren't exactly in the same arena but still I see BSA and I think Boy Scouts, and I'm wondering what about the BSA is a scam?
Why the heck is this flamebait? If you are going to bash microsoft, get a clue. A university with a Volume License could use ghost to set up every machine. An enterprise volume license does not have product activation. The original poster is clueless. Microsoft Select License, Enterprise Agreement (EA), & EA Subscription customers can use volume licensing media to re-image Microsoft software products licensed via a finished goods channel, primarily OEM and retail, with an identical version of the software.^M^MMicrosoft allows Select License, EA, and EA Subscription customers to use volume licensing media to re-image Microsoft software products licensed via a finished goods channel with an identical product without the need to purchase a volume license. --If we are going to fight microsoft, and win, we are going to have to learn the facts and act responsibly.--
He then sends one piece of information (a page, one liscence, etc) at a time, every hour on the hour, to said lawyer, to cause their clients legal bills to explode.
So what, do you think a lawyer copes with every fax he receives imediately after reception? He much probably has a secretary who manages his correspondence.
Here's a simple fix. Abandon the use of all
proprietary software and switch to Open Source.
Linux, FreeBSD.. take your pick!
Thats one reason I dont register.. and *never* purchase under a MOLP type agreement plan..
Its retail white boxes all the way, or OSS packages.
They dont need to know who i am, what im using, or tell me that my software has expired..
---- Booth was a patriot ----
...when my wife passed the bar.
You have my deepest condolences.
SERIAL NUMBERS AND CD'S ARE NOT PROOF OF PURCHASE. You MUST HAVE RECEIPTS!
There are other forms of proof of purchace than a recipt!
Unless you paid cash for the software (unlikely) you will have credit card / bank statements (they WILL keep records of all transactions) showing payment to XYZ software co. Cheque book stubs, tax records from when your busness claimed back the sales tax (VAT in the UK) on the purchaesd software etc etc.
If they demand recipts that were lost years ago I'd tell them to go fuck themselves.
Besides, think of the BSA as being like baliffs (repo men). If you dont answer the door, they quickly give up and go someware else to another easier job. If you open the door and say "it wasnt me" they will know you are an easy target :-)
Anyone quoted by a reporter knows how little they understand
Don't believe what you read is the truth.
All I saw when I first look at the headline was BSA and grace-period scam.. I thought to myself "Boy Scouts of America" how could you? You shouldn't even deal with technology, isn't that kind of opposite of the whole idea of camping and getting back to nature.
Who makes you Sig?
Unfortunately, the onus is on Company X to prove that they have licenses for all the software they're using.
Now, my knowledge of law is pretty scarce, but why is this the case? If someone accuses you of something, isn't the burden of proof on them?
We started getting these letters when my wife passed the bar.
The first time is always the hardest. Good luck to her in her continuing battle with alcoholism.
I had signed up at some trade show where they made you fill out your name, address, company and title and other such identifying information. Although I'm usually pretty guarded about such information, I put down my real address, but put down the name of my one-person company, with me as the president of it. Some months later, I got a letter from the BSA saying that they had had an anonymous tipoff from someone in the company that we had some licensing problems with our software.
A few problems:
a) I'm the only person in the company, I sure as hell didn't tip them off on myself
b) I run webhosting using Linux and do software development on Mac OS X with the free suite of Project Development tools from Apple. Um, there's no software for me to have stolen!
Needless to say, I was furious, called the number on the letter, and told them to take me off their correspondence list. They took me off, no questions asked, and I haven't heard from them since.
Not to say that there is no bite to their bark, but they don't always have a source like they say they do. The distribution of letters seems to be fairly random.
--
Mac OS X--Unix without the assholes^Whassles.
Basicly this is a shakedown. Consult with a lawyer. You may have some recourse under the RICO (Racketeering Influenced and Corrupt Organizations) law.
The only thing they're chasing is the guy with the money.
Can I bum a sig? I left mine at the office.
Get some cardboard boxes and load all of your software and liscenses into them.
Mail the items back to the manufacturer with a nice cover letter similar to this:
Dear (name of your account manager),
This is my official notification of cancellation of liscenses and business with (name of software company), as stated in your EULA (if you do not agree with the terms of this EULA, cease using software and return same to company...blah blah blah).
Get bent.
Sincerely,
(Your Name)
After that, load and use free software, and use the money you save to extend your business or pad the profit margin.
Lodragan Draoidh
The more you explain it, the more I don't understand it. - Mark Twain
What happens if the music industry decides to put together one of these groups? Am I going to receive a letter requesting to see the receipts of all the CD's I purchased that have since been converted to MP3's?
I've noticed that this usually happens in Q1.
Q1 is traditionally the slowest month in business spending, especially on IT and other capital or infrstructure projects, particularly in these trying economic times. Financial management wants to get some kind of projection on this year's recievables before they release a lot of overhead spending.
Which means that software companies, which for several years running had been selling "updates" to their software at a huge clip are now facing major shortfalls in Q1 and Q2 due to a purchasing pattern that starts to resemble retail sales -- some spending Q2, better in Q3 & Q4, but little or none in Q1.
So they get the BSA to send these letters out in January to help beef up Q1 numbers. It's an extortion racket, plain and simple.
You might not get sued, but you centanly could be pulled over for "avoiding an intersection" (or something like that).
It happened to my sister when she witnessed what she deemed to be a volitile arguement in a party store where she was going to ask for directions in a bad section of Detroit. She decided she really didn't feel like getting shot, and so kept driving, and was immediatly pulled over by an undercover cop and given a ticket.
Very odd, given that plainclothes cops usually don't enforce traffic violations, as that kinda blows their cover.
McFly777
- - -
"What do people mean when they say the computer went down on them?" -Marilyn Pittman
Jesus Christ on a pogo stick! You are so fucking full of shit! The GPL *DOES* give you something. The GPL gives you the right to use the software any way you like, and the right to redistribute it and incorporate it into whatever you like, given you follow certain terms. Under copyright law, those are rights you don't normally have, the GPL gives you those rights. If you violate the terms of the GPL, then by distributing said GPL'ed software, you are comitting copyright violation.
You must have some pseudo-religious belief that paying for software is inherently wrong.
What the fuck? You do realize that people PAY for the Debian GNU/Linux distribution, don't you? You know, the GNU project made enough money to support itself by SELLING SOFTWARE for nearly a decade. You obviously don't have a fucking clue what you're talking about.
Jealous of billg's riches? Well, too bad, some people are good businessmen and some aren't -- just because you're not the richest man in the world doesn't mean you should whine about it and make up all sorts of bullshit lies about how paying for software is "extortion," etc.
Again, WHAT THE FUCK? Most free software/open source advocates are not so blinded by money, are you are fuckin` asshole for making such accusations! Most of these people could make a lot more money working with proprietary software, often have been offered such, but they don't because they, get this, actually have principles they live by!
And your previous "then you steal it" comment was total flaimbait. The poster never said anything remotely implying anything of the sort.
Goddam, what a fuckin` asshole you are!
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
Goodbye GHS.
Hellooooo Ernie Ball!
I found my inner child, then I got caught abusing it...
People don't get sued for GPL violations. They only get sued for Copyright violations. Once the GPL isn't worth sh*t (sh*t being what it's not worth once you violate it) you have no rights to distribute the associated GPL software that the DMCA doesn't otherwise give you. Once they show that you're distributing binaries of GPLed code, all they have to do is show that you're not making the source code available.
The GPL doesn't give the owner of the software's copyright any rights that they wouldn't otherwise have under copyright law. They simply give the recipient protection from copyright prosecution, as long as (s)he follows certain rules.
There is a huge credit card processing software company down in Florida... Southern Data-something or other, that has for a long time been distributing the GNU awk binary (compiled for Win32 on x86) as a component of their software distribution. There are no source code files provided nor is there a copy of the GPL text provided, in fact this outfit will deny that they use gawk as a component in their product if you ask them to their face.... but it's there on their CDROM, plain as day, blatantly present, not even botherd to hide it under another name.
http://www.airscanner.com/pubs/jail.pdf
interesting read
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
This may be true *now*, but until just last spring MS tried to enforce the technicality that using Ghost (or whatever) to image x # of machines meant you had to purchase another Select license for each machine. Their thinking was that even though all your shiny new computers came with OEM Windows licenses, you must have used a serial number-less Select installation CD, therefore you had to (re-)purchase all your Windows licenses under a Select Agreement (or Enterprise agreement, if you drink enough of the MS Kool-Aid). When MS came out with their new licensing scheme in the fall of '01, AND tried to keep this insane technicality in place, enough businesses cried foul until MS backed down a bit.
What really interests me is how MS plans to handle the fact that only about 30% of businesses have signed onto the new licensing scheme, and the rest are simply sitting on their Win2000 installed base and seeing how long they can make it last before the next upgrade. Or experimenting with Linux in the meantime. The battle is not over yet!
Come on lawyers in the slashdot audience, we need a few of you to act in the greater good (and your own self interest) and file a class action law suit against these people. Here's why:
First, you will win. Consider this analogy: suppose you build a pre-fab shed in your backyard. In many places you would buy a kit from your local Home Depot, and maybe you even sent in a card that came with the kit to the manufacturer (they promised you a catalog or something). Now, in most urban places building codes would make running electricity to the shed without a permit illegal. Suppose then that the shed company sold its mailing list to local contractors and those contractors started sending out threatening letters like this one to purchasers. Letters like "Is your shed illegal? Is it up to code enforcement? You can hire us now to come audit your building or in 30 days or we may call city planning and you could face stiff fines.". If you received such a letter you would feel exactly like you feel after receiving this BSA letter: you have no idea what city codes are. You may very well call them to have them come "check out" your premises. Such a scam would be deceptive marketing and extortion.
So lawyers, why don't you file a class action lawsuit on behalf of all those who have received this letter? Claim that at least half of that $70 million BSA made last year was fraudulent. You should do this for many reasons, among them:
(1) It's a solid case. These people are sending out threatening letters to ordinary folks who may have just subscribed to a magazine.
(2) You will get a percentage of the bounty. Even if you only get 20% of the $35M, it is well worth your time.
(3) It will set a legal precedent that can be used to attack other extra-legal entities that are running similar extortion rackets (think RIAA and that punk silicon valley firm that crawls P2P networks). These other extra-legal entities may be on firmer legal ground, but if you can erode that ground in a case that is stronger then it will make shutting them down later easier.
So come on lawyers, act in your own self interest and for the greater good.
-AC
The BS Alliance...
It sounds a bit like extortion to me though.
"Were my university to be audited, it would cost around $2,000,000 just to double check"
Based on your statement that you have ~10k PC's, that comes to something like $200 per machine to check liscense status. Even making some pretty generous assumptions about your hourly rate, and assuming you've never heard of interns, I can't imaging getting anywhere even close to $200 per box...
They are vampires. Do not invite them in. They have no power if you do not invite them in. Do not respond to them. Do not taunt them. Do not try to be clever.
If they do not have an invitation to enter, they cannot collect evidence. If you do not respond to them, they do not have evidence that you have any software at all. For example, "Our 40 copies of MS Office and XP are licensed." gives them information about your business that they wouldn't otherwise have.
So I repeat, don't talk, write, phone, or otherwise look, sneer, laugh, or taunt them. Just ignore them, their letters, and their demands.
Quietly. And spread this around. You know the funny thing is that all of what I just said was common knowledge more than 5 years ago, but what I'm reading on Slashdot today seems to show me that people are actually responding to these letters. Tsk tsk.
Toddlers are the stormtroopers of the Lord of Entropy.
The BSA is going to go where the money is, which is with the company.
Hit the BSA with a RICO counter-suit. That behavior is typical of an underworld protection racket.
After consulting with his lawyer, he sent a reply to Microsoft along the following lines: "We would be very happy to assist you in this matter, but since your request would take up a considerable amount of time of our employees, we will have to charge you accordingly."
Microsoft's reply to this was: "Oh, well, never mind..."
Does anybody have similar experiences? It seems perfectly legitimate to charge for any such burden imposed by another company. I wonder if there's a profound legal basis, however.
This BSA business has been going on for awhile now, and is apparently proving very profitable to the BSA's member's. Here's a article from eWeek article that explains the tactics in a bit more detail.
Possibly the most misleading and offensive part of this whole mess is the active solicitation by the BSA of "disgruntled" employees willing to rat out their employers. What is hardly mentioned is that, should the BSA claim to have evidence provided by such a source, they must first prove the validity of that source before any legal warrant can be issued. No law enforcement agency will raid a business, big or small, on the uncorroborated word of a suspect source (although, with Ashcroft, you never know). As a few of the posts above have noted, there have already been instances where companies have ratted out rivals in an apparent attempt to gain an business edge from the disruption (Sometimes, you have just gotta love capitalism). If this is in fact happening, I imagine the risks of retaliatory lawsuits by the victimized is sky high, and I'll be willing to bet the dollar amounts awarded to folks unjustly accused will far outweigh any gains the BSA would have made on a few unlicensed copies of Win98.
Then, there's the extra expense of litigation. Whether necessary or not, businesses forced to litigate against the BSA will have no choice but to raise prices to cover the costs of both the case itself an the inevitable increase in insurance rates. Members of the BSA will also be faced with increases in legal spending, and this in turn will only serve to raise prices for their products. How can this be good for anyone?
The thing that really burns me is that, by operating on the assumption that the mere threat of an audit is often enough to make smaller companies roll over on command, the BSA membership demonstrates a callous disregard for their customer base, and an apparent gleeful willingness to offend just about anyone as long as they get the cash. If this is their idea of an acceptable new business model, we are in deep trouble in the days/years to come - UCITA or not.
I'm not tense. I'm just terribly, terribly, alert.
Yes their sending these out to businesses in IL and saying that there's a 45 day grace period that will end on feb 28th.
They are sending these letters to all registered businesses in the state and I think they got the addresses and contact info from the state. The reason I think this is becuase I have a home based business and have always used a po box for all business mail- the state is one basically the place that would have had my home address related to my business because they require a physical address for sales tax licensing.
About a week after receiving the bsa letter I got a very similar letter from microsoft mentioning the grace period and letting me know that if I need additional licenses I could get them for up to 20% off- then the fine print says that microsoft can't guarantee you any discount because you'll have to buy the additional licenses from one of their authorized resellers and that the resellers regulate the discounts they decide to give- so you may not really get one.
this has really pissed me off- I immediately killed my last windoze box and put redhat on it- I had just bought my first mac a few months before and it's great- I'm shooting for a dual powermac in the next six months. because I'm in a home based business that doesn't operate normal business hours they would basically have to have a search warrant to look at my computers. I dare them! I spoke to a few people about this and from what i've heard a search warrant cannot be issued to a private company for something like this. I'm so mad!!!
Creationists are a lot like zombies. Slow, but powerful and numerous. And they all want to eat our brains.
The whole organization is one big scam, to extort people and pretend to be a law enforcement body.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
That the BSA can cover any commercial Linux software too? i.e. if they don't provide it for free, at all, to the public, and only sell it for profit, if you have it installed illegally (i.e. you didn't pay for it), the BSA can come to you too, right?
Sure, the BSA works more with MS, Apple, Oracle, Autodesk, etc, but it applies software-wide.
Hell, I wonder how many companies out there have WinZip installed everywhere, and haven't paid for it - it's shareware, and it can still be hit by the BSA.
They arent the government they cant do anything. Even if they sue you it will stay in the courts for years before anything is done and you honestly dont even need a lawyer (you as a not for profit should have one anyway). So ignore them.
Many mortgage companies now require first-time home buyers to study for and take a test that proves they understand the details of their new home loan.
Why, you ask? So that if push comes to shove, they can demonstrate that, because of your passing test score, that you understood the contract.
Unfortunately, none of it is as good as their old "Son, I believe that's against the law !" shtick.
Ouch ! What do you do ?
iirc there's also written that should you not agree to the eula you shall return the product for refund
i don't know about you guys but where i come from, i don't think a document without a signature is legally binding. how can a EULA be legally binding if there is no signature?
What a pathetic cop-out. Your system sucks ass and you try to defend it instead of fixing the holes.
"Property [...] has no legal rights". Sure. But what dumbass system charges property? Oh yeah, the US system. Where your property can be charged with a drug offense and you have to prove your innocence to get it back. And where the police agencies that confiscate the property get to keep the funds from auctioning it off. That's really reasonable. How can you possibly claim this makes sense?
And this double jeapordy crap is hilarious. You say you can't try someone twice for the same crime. What happened to OJ? Oh yeah, two court cases. They couldn't prove he killed his wife, yet he was found liable for killing her. That's moronic, yet it's a "Feature" of your system. You don't actually have to prove someone committed a crime to put them in prison, you sue them into debt and have everything they own confiscated, because the burden of proof is much lower in a civil case.
There's a ton of double-talk bullshit in US law like this.
Note that this probably wouldn't work if the company were truly using a large number of illegal copies. "Gee, our complete office just decided that they need MS Word," probably wouldn't fly.
Of course the receipt thing is just ridiculous. I am sure that I have a ton of software that I purchased and would have difficulty finding the receipt for (although it sounds like I shouldn't admit that). Even the IRS only requires you to keep records 7 years!
McFly777
- - -
"What do people mean when they say the computer went down on them?" -Marilyn Pittman
and I am pretty sure that there is illegal stuff here. I wonder if they go after member companies for other member companies?
Law enforcement is one of the most clearly defined aspects of the US legal system: it is the jurisdiction of the local police, the county sheriff's department, state police, US Marshals and the FBI. That's it (well, unless I've gone brain dead and am forgetting a few Departments of The Man).
I do not recall seeing the BSA on COPS.
Cheers,
-- RLJ
We got one of those too. I haven't been able to come up with a way to get them to waste their money actually auditing us, but I'm working on it. Except for the single windows machine and my Mac, all of our machines run either free software, or software we wrote ourselves. It would be fun to have them come in and waste their time.
No, the lawyer doesn't cope with every fax immediately and does not HAVE TO bill for each item based on the time that they are received, but they COULD claim that each item was processed immediately as it was received, thereby incurring a one-hour increment billing charge on the hour. Not likely, but you never know.
Your trite simplifications of the US legal system are worth less than the number of active brain cells that you possess, which I guarantee to be a single digit number.
HA HA HA... HA HA F'in HA
As a mortgage professional, I can assure you that you must have 2 things to take out a home loan:
1) downpayment/credit
2) pulse
There is absolutely NO stipulation for understanding your contract. There are dozens of forms to be signed in triplicate in which you sign away rights you never knew you had... Even the folks that WANT to understand couldn't read through a Mortgage, a Note (yes, there is a difference), etc etc etc at closing. The best part is that you'll sign it anyway, since you want the house and had to move heaven and earth just to get to a point where you CAN read and disagree with your documents.
If there is a dispute, too bad. Your mortgage company has a contract, you signed it, and any court would throw your suit out for wasting their time and tax-payers money.
I'm sure education is an option and a VERY good idea, but there's nothing mandatory.
Classes indeed...
I think my Linux/GPL software is unlicensed...
So I better report it to the BSA.
You should too.
-Pniwckquemeister
The InfoAnarchy Wiki has a BSA page up HREF="http://www.infoanarchy.org/wiki/wiki.pl?BSA" >here.
Might be nice to get a repository of BSA monkeyshines going in one place.
Recently, a New York court threw out a clause in a popular software package's EULA. The offending portion prohibited publishing the results of benchmarks without the consent of the company.
This was found to be a violation of free speech. However, I believe it has finally put in question the validity of all overbearing EULA's.
For some reason, the first level in most games I've bought recently seems to be "You're playing a contract lawyer and you have to get through this bunch of clauses". Then later on you get guns and things and it gets more fun. The first level is boring but really easy, there's usually only two or three buttons to try.
First they figure that half of the installed copies won't be paid for, so they sell their $100 software for $200 instead to make up the difference. Then they say "Oh my god half of the installed copies aren't paid for!" and calculate a 'loss' of $200 for each such copy. That's how they get these ridiculous figures.
God you're a simpleton. You're the jingoistic motherfucker beating his chest about how wonderful the USA is. The fact that other legal system have problems doesn't make yours any better. It's obvious that you bringing up other legal systems is a an evasion because you can't defend your own.
US law is probably the worst of the first world countries. The DMCA, the UCITA, the never-ending copyright terms, the legalized bribery (oops, sorry, "donations"), the "property has no rights" crap. Take it like a man, your country of the free, isn't.
"FUCK the BSA!. They really don't have the right to suspend the 4th amendment, no matter what their stupid letter says. Wipe your ass with it, wrap it in dead fish, and send it back to them. To them to return once they have a fucking search warrrant. Fucking nazis.
...here's the real-world answer.
...is probably more like it. Admin's don't generally just go around updating OS's for no reason and without management having any idea that they were updated. Even if the admin did update it without any management approval, dontcha think they might ask something along the lines of "who paid for this software?".
Company: We need to put xyz app on our computers
Admin: We need Windows 2000 for that.
Company: So don't you have a copy?
Admin: We need licenses for them all.
Company: Yeah, whatever, just get the computers updated.
Blame the company, not the admin.
It happened to me when my faculty members at my Uni tried to claim that they (as in the faculty) owned copyright and any consequent profit in my media honours thesis. Fools didn't realise I was also a law student at the time too (still am, sadly). I spent time researching the situation, spoke to some media lawyers, and even found the University's OWN policy documents on the matter... and provided them with written proof that they were inarguably wrong. Somehow the staff didn't believe me. Or didn't want to belive me. My response was then "bill me". They never have and never will. Sadly, a year later they asked for money from a fellow student... who paid for it cause she was UNWILLING to fight them. "Oh, because they said its so it must be so".
It happened with a friend on Austudy. Basically there was a fuck up and the government claimed he owned them money. When he talked to them about it and said they were wrong, the person was like 'no, you owe us the money, you can't fight us, that's the law'. He fought them and won.
People in positions of power, or at least with appearance of power, will claim to have the law behind them to give them greater authority... and because citizens tend to view law as some great big evil other... when, in fact, the greatest thing about the common law tradition is that its the citizens' law. Chances are, they don't have ANY legal authority behind and just use the treat to silence disent.
Frankly, I think legal studies should be a compulsory study at high schools. It'll never happen, because then citizens will actually know their legal rights.Can't have that happen.
Consider these time wasting idiots another scam to rip you off. Ignore the letter. If they do contact you tell them that you will press charges for harassment. The BSA has no legal authority, anywhere. They can start a civil legal action on behalf of a member of the BSA if a complaint is made to them by a person who claims illegal copies of software are being used at a location. Otherwise they can pee up a tree. The BSA is seeming to be running a protection racket like the Better Business Bureau, another bunch of crooks.
The BSA have an ad on the radio in boston (on the clasiical music station no less). They have a fake interview with some BSA official.
He said that most of their leads come from unhappy employees and unless your company has all happy employees, make sure you do a audit during the grace period. You could pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for each unlicensed title..kinda a threating ad actually.
They also sent a co-worker a card with a flashing LED (It turned on when you opened the card.. Kinda neat actually). The card was basically telling him to rat out our company if they were using illegal software. Funny thing is we work in a Unix environment thats classified.. Not much commercial software there, and I know we pay dearly for the development tools we have. Plus the BSA couldn't get into the building legally so we wern't too woried. Nothing came of it.
Bzzt! Incorrect.
You can file a civil case in the United States without any evidence whatsoever, alleging anything you like. Evidence comes much later in a civil case, through a process called "discovery"
I could sue you tomorrow for turning the sky pink, for the cost of the $100 filing fee. Even better, in many states such as CA, the judge adjudicating the case does not even have the power to order me to pay your legal fees even when you win or he throws the case out. You'd have to sue me separately alleging malicious prosecution, and win your case.
How do I know? One of our competitors filed a bogus lawsuit alleging we pirated their product from a demo CD they sent to a prospective client who signed up with us instead - they use NT/ASP, we run Java/Linux. Their product is a joke, ours is 10x better.
It may sound laughable to a techie, but thus far in 11 months we have racked up $0.5m in legal fees, mostly paid by our corporate liability insurance, and we have still yet to get to the point where the actual facts become relevant (e.g. there was never a CD in the first place) and we can file a motion to have the judge dismiss the case.
It's a business harassment tactic, and it's working.
This is the USA, where deep pockets have much more influence on "justice" than the truth. Wake up and smell the Starbucks(TM).
There's another organization similar to the BSA (ISA? Not sure) that DOES use a an outside lawyer. However, the lawyer might be paid a percentage only, and that out of the percentage the ISA gets. In that case you wouldn't be doing much harm.
Not sure whether the BSA legal team is strictly in-house or not. As a pseudo-tech company they probably get many publications for the pointy-haired boss audience, and have followed the advice to outsource everything but the outsourcing department.