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...just pick a random european country

As an European I disagree. Try to home school in Germany. Try to run a Church the government don't like (say a Baptist church) in France. Try to (legally) buy a gun in Romania. Try to run a political organization the government really hates in Spain. Banning a political party isn't an alien idea to The Council of Europe.

A pregnant asylum seeker I knew here in Norway asked the Norwegian Child Welfare Services (Barnevernet) for help. She foolishly assumed they at least would try to help her before taking her child. They came to the hospital when she gave birth and took it. Other cases have reached the international media.

I'm not claiming that the USA is Heaven. I'm not claiming Europe is Hell. Here in Norway I can (within some limits) home school, run an unpopular church, buy a gun and run an organization the government don't like. While crime speech is illegal our courts have usually chosen an interpretation that bans less speech then what is possible using other interpretations. Claiming that a random European country have more liberty than the USA is still horribly wrong.

IANAL, but I believe this is the Norwegian law in question (translation courtesy of google):

204a. Whoever

a. produce, acquire, introduce, possess, leaving to another or for a fee or systematically familiarize themselves with the production of sexual abuse against children or representations sexualising children,

b. concerned with depictions of sexual abuse of children or representations as sexualising children, otherwise referred to in 204, first paragraph, or

c. misleads anyone under 18 to have himself photographed as part of the commercial production of motion and motionless pictures with adult content, or produce such representations where anyone under 18 is depicted,

punishable by fines or imprisonment for up to 3 years.

                With children the purposes of this section, persons who are or appear to be under 18.

                Anyone who negligently performs the action specified in the first paragraph, punished by fines or imprisonment for up to 6 months. At the same penalty the owner or parent who willfully or negligently fails to prevent it in a business is carried out actions described in the first paragraph.

                The penalty can be eliminated for the taking and possessing an image of a person between 16 and 18, if it has given their consent and the two are roughly equal in age and development.

                  204 second paragraph, second and fourth paragraphs shall apply correspondingly.

Added by Act of May 20, 2005 No. 29

Emphasis (for what I think is relevant) mine. The law was probably written in good intent, but I think cartoons (which this basically is) being illegal is just crazy, it should count as free speech.

It does define children as persons though, so I would say it's not actually illegal (since a fictional character is not a person).

This thread is about the US constitution but as a Norwegian I can assure you that the Norwegian politicians ignore our constitution just as like the US politicians ignore the theirs.

In Norway, the law(1) says (in my translation) that "any punishment can be set aside if those who had sexual relations, are relatively equal in age and development".

This paragraph always struck me as a great idea.

1: http://lovdata.no/cgi-wift/ldles?doc=/all/nl-19020522-010.html&196 - in norwegian.

Why, yes :)

http://www.lovdata.no/for/sf/md/td-20040601-0922-0 02.html#2-5 - That would be Section 2-5 in "Forskrift om begrensning i bruk av helse- og miljøfarlige kjemikalier og andre produkter (produktforskriften)." Or, directly translated, "Regulation regarding use of health- and environmentally dangerous chemicals and other products (the product regulation)"

This explisitly bans the production, import, export, sale and use use of lead based shotgun shells. Funny enough, lead is still allowed in normal rifle ammunition and, as far as I know, used and allowed as fishing weights.

Norway adheres to the Berne convention (or did last time I looked anyway) and if you take a picture of another person here, that person has a copyright on the picture. So does the person that took the picture, apparantly, but the person in the picture can veto any publication etc.

In Norwegian here:
http://lovdata.no/all/hl-19610512-002.html#45c
In English (but unoffical I expect):
http://www.ub.uio.no/ujur/ulovdata/lov-19610512-00 2-eng.pdf
(para 45c)

Of course, there is a lot of leeway for the media to use pictures that are in the public interest etc. even if the copyright holder might object, but the basic law is quite clear.

Most licences prohibit "reverse engineering" too - it's just not enforcable since the local laws explicitly allow reverse engineering. Of course IANAL so I can't tell you if the lagal "reverse engineering for interoperability purposes" also include disassembly. I would think it did.

Spot on. The Norwegian law, on this, paragraph 39i, is a translation of European law 91/250/EEC, article 6.

Both allow reverse-engineering for interoperability purposes, both specifically mention decompilation.

The Norwegian law has also added the following line to the end of the paragraph: Bestemmelsene i denne paragraf kan ikke fravikes ved avtale., which means The regulations of this paragraph cannot be waived through agreement.
That is, any EULA or contract clause forbidding reverse engineering for interoperability is void.

Although, if some Slashdotters read their EULAs more carefully, they'd probably have noticed that most of them already take this into account and forbid "reverse engineering except as allowed under law" or something to that extent.

Check out http://lovdata.no/all/hl-19020522-010.html#391a That's the one about stealing smaller items... Fines and/or 6 months in prison

Stupid autolinking... My brain must be too small :-) Now, IANAL, but I think you need to read a little further, to: http://lovdata.no/all/hl-19020522-010.html#391a (also in Norwegian) This paragraph is what's used against ppl who steal stuff of lesser value, candybars, a single book, or what have you. The other paragraph is what makes you a criminal if you empty someones living room of stuff.

IANAL, but a quick search seems to indicate[1] that the penalty for theft is the same as in your quote: fines and up to three years in prison.

[1] http://lovdata.no/all/hl-19020522-010.html#257 (in Norwegian)

>>(All legal, since they were all copied from borrowed CDs).
>Dude.... I hope you have a good lawyer!!!

I don't need one. It says so in the law, that I'm allowed to do it. As long as I keep it non-commercial, I'm allowed to copy it. But I'm not allowed to distribute it, only the copyright holder is allowed to do that. It is no different that the 80ies tape-copying in that manner.

3. Share with close friends, and this is interpreted in a strick sense. Your best friend that you grew up with? Sure! Someone from class or a cow-orker? Nope, not close enough.

You're right, it's 13 months now.

Where'd you get 18 months from?
From the law.
The law sets the service length up to military service period + 180 days at maximum, and allows calling you in for repetition service.

The implementing rules sets it to military service period + 1 month. And I've never heard about anybody being called in to do civilian service repetition. (In contrast to the Civil Defence people, who get called out from time to time.)

You're right, it's 13 months now.

Where'd you get 18 months from?
From the law.
The law sets the service length up to military service period + 180 days at maximum, and allows calling you in for repetition service.

The implementing rules sets it to military service period + 1 month. And I've never heard about anybody being called in to do civilian service repetition. (In contrast to the Civil Defence people, who get called out from time to time.)

No, it had not.
However the court did actually adress the issue.

There already is/was a provision in Norwegian copyright law specifying that reverse-engineering for interoperability purposes is legal and the right may not be voided by contracts.

Paragraph 39i of norwegian copyright law to be precise.

If your norwegian isn't so hot, it's just an implementation of EEC directive 91-250-EEC, article 6.

I should clarify that.. Reverse-engineering is not generally illegal either. It's a gray area, subject to license agreements and so on.

However, the right to reverse-engineer for interoperability purposes is clearly legal, and can't be waived by license agreements.
(Norwegian copyright law, paragraph 39i).

The Norwegian Personal Data Act (Chapter VII) and the statute to the Personal Data Act (Chapter VIII) allow for video surveillance as long as a certain set of rules are followed, including where you're allowed to set up the cameras, disclosure of images, and notification that surveillance is being carried out (for example with a sign).

The translation is by Jon Bing, who also translated the judgement of the first instance court.

Note that footnote 9 is somewhat wrong. He seems to be confusing civil cases with criminal cases; in civil cases the parties may in some instances choose whether or not lay judges are to hear the case. (In civil cases the default is only professional judges.)

I don't understand the purpose of footnote 11, but it should probably read "That is 88,000,000".

The translation is by Jon Bing, who also translated the judgement of the first instance court.

Note that footnote 9 is somewhat wrong. He seems to be confusing civil cases with criminal cases; in civil cases the parties may in some instances choose whether or not lay judges are to hear the case. (In civil cases the default is only professional judges.)

I don't understand the purpose of footnote 11, but it should probably read "That is 88,000,000".

Bail exists under the Norwegian Criminal Code section 188 ("kausjon"), but is rarely used. You do not have the right to use a get-out-of-jail-for-money card, it's up to the court.

Whether or not you are held in prison pending trial would depend on several factors, including the gravity of the accused crime. Murder suspects are more seldom released, at least during the early stages of the investigation.

Lov om rettergangsmaten i straffesaker (Straffeprosessloven) [The Criminal Procedure Code] section 307 provides that

Any person who has been acquitted may not appeal unless the court has found it proved that he committed the unlawful act referred to in the indictment.

Any person acquitted by a judgement of the Court of Appeal in a case that is tried with a jury may not appeal unless the issue of guilt has been decided against him.

I.e. you may not appeal because you are not happy with the reasonings of the court, ot because you'd like to have a higher court take a look at the case (such as to render a more authoritative ruling), as long as you were acquitted. This goes for civil cases as well.

This case was not tried before a jury, but with a combined court of three judges and four lay judges (in this case: two exptert lay judges and two regular lay judges), since the maximum sentence that could applied was less than 6 years, see the Norwegian Criminal Code section 352. The Norwegian Penal Code section 145 only provides for a maximum jail term of two years if damage is caused or the felony took place for an ulawful gain. Otherwise the maximum prison sentence would be six months.

One of the judges (Stavang) holds a Norwegian (research) doctorate in law, and a minor degree in economics, and was quite interested in the antitrust implications of the DVD region system. In an answer to a question by Glyn Ford, Mario Monti answered that "... the Commission has obtained significant amounts of information relating to the establishment and ongoing operation of the regional coding system from a broad range of film studios, DVD equipment manufacturers, and commercial retailers. The Commission is now completing its analysis of the file with a view to ascertaining the system's compatibility with the Community competition rules." See Official Journal of the European Union C 137 E of 12 June 2003 (page 34[pdf file]).

The whole criminal procedure act is available translated into Engilsh as a large PDF file. The General civil penal code is also available translated into English as a PDF file.

Or alternatively, could his supporters?

His supporters? Who are they? No, only parties to the case may appeal; you must have "legal standing".

Lov om rettergangsmaten i straffesaker (Straffeprosessloven) [The Criminal Procedure Code] section 307 provides that

Any person who has been acquitted may not appeal unless the court has found it proved that he committed the unlawful act referred to in the indictment.

Any person acquitted by a judgement of the Court of Appeal in a case that is tried with a jury may not appeal unless the issue of guilt has been decided against him.

I.e. you may not appeal because you are not happy with the reasonings of the court, ot because you'd like to have a higher court take a look at the case (such as to render a more authoritative ruling), as long as you were acquitted. This goes for civil cases as well.

This case was not tried before a jury, but with a combined court of three judges and four lay judges (in this case: two exptert lay judges and two regular lay judges), since the maximum sentence that could applied was less than 6 years, see the Norwegian Criminal Code section 352. The Norwegian Penal Code section 145 only provides for a maximum jail term of two years if damage is caused or the felony took place for an ulawful gain. Otherwise the maximum prison sentence would be six months.

One of the judges (Stavang) holds a Norwegian (research) doctorate in law, and a minor degree in economics, and was quite interested in the antitrust implications of the DVD region system. In an answer to a question by Glyn Ford, Mario Monti answered that "... the Commission has obtained significant amounts of information relating to the establishment and ongoing operation of the regional coding system from a broad range of film studios, DVD equipment manufacturers, and commercial retailers. The Commission is now completing its analysis of the file with a view to ascertaining the system's compatibility with the Community competition rules." See Official Journal of the European Union C 137 E of 12 June 2003 (page 34[pdf file]).

The whole criminal procedure act is available translated into Engilsh as a large PDF file. The General civil penal code is also available translated into English as a PDF file.

Or alternatively, could his supporters?

His supporters? Who are they? No, only parties to the case may appeal; you must have "legal standing".

Lov om rettergangsmaten i straffesaker (Straffeprosessloven) [The Criminal Procedure Code] section 307 provides that

Any person who has been acquitted may not appeal unless the court has found it proved that he committed the unlawful act referred to in the indictment.

Any person acquitted by a judgement of the Court of Appeal in a case that is tried with a jury may not appeal unless the issue of guilt has been decided against him.

I.e. you may not appeal because you are not happy with the reasonings of the court, ot because you'd like to have a higher court take a look at the case (such as to render a more authoritative ruling), as long as you were acquitted. This goes for civil cases as well.

This case was not tried before a jury, but with a combined court of three judges and four lay judges (in this case: two exptert lay judges and two regular lay judges), since the maximum sentence that could applied was less than 6 years, see the Norwegian Criminal Code section 352. The Norwegian Penal Code section 145 only provides for a maximum jail term of two years if damage is caused or the felony took place for an ulawful gain. Otherwise the maximum prison sentence would be six months.

One of the judges (Stavang) holds a Norwegian (research) doctorate in law, and a minor degree in economics, and was quite interested in the antitrust implications of the DVD region system. In an answer to a question by Glyn Ford, Mario Monti answered that "... the Commission has obtained significant amounts of information relating to the establishment and ongoing operation of the regional coding system from a broad range of film studios, DVD equipment manufacturers, and commercial retailers. The Commission is now completing its analysis of the file with a view to ascertaining the system's compatibility with the Community competition rules." See Official Journal of the European Union C 137 E of 12 June 2003 (page 34[pdf file]).

The whole criminal procedure act is available translated into Engilsh as a large PDF file. The General civil penal code is also available translated into English as a PDF file.

Or alternatively, could his supporters?

His supporters? Who are they? No, only parties to the case may appeal; you must have "legal standing".

This law explicit states that "Det kan ikke avtales eller gjores gjeldende vilkar som er ugunstigere for forbrukeren enn det som folger av loven her.", translated "It can not be agreed upon terms that represent a lesser benefit to the customer than what follows from this law".

The only "problem" with this law as I see it is that it only declares such terms void. In my opinion it should also be illegal for the seller to try to make the customer believe certain terms are valid if the seller knows or should have known that this law voids the terms.

OK, i read up some on the law in question.

It turns out I was wrong, it's not legal to download unlicensed software from the Internet in Norway, only music and movies.

12 gives you explicit rights to make single copies for private noncomercial use of publicly available copyrighted material. The law does not require the process of making the material publicly available to be lawful. But 12 makes an excemption for computer programs and states that its not legal to copy those.

Sorry my error :-)

12 norwegian copyright laws

Btw, this is also the same paragraph that gives you the right to tape TV-shows on your VHS recorder at home.

You should also be aware that økokrim (norwegian economical crime unit) is not a very reliable source for what is illegal or not. They are infamous for claming this and that as illegal and then loosing big time in the courts (not only in IT-cases but also regarding economic cases). Latest famous case was against DVD Jon where the courts basicly tould økokrim that the things they were accusing Jon for were not illegal in Norway.

Where did I hear the claim avout downloading obvious illegally distributed software:

Well it's quite a time ago (3-4 months) in an newspaper article (unable to find any online version) discussing implications for the scandinavian countries if we accept the european directive implementing a sort of european DMCA. The article quite clearly stated that Norway and Sweeden had exactly the same problem with their laws that made only the sharing/distribution/uploading part illegal. Of course the article was probably talking about music and movies not software.

BTW Seeden have now accepted the european directive and it will be active law very soon.

Here (Norway) you can download whatever you want from Kazaa,

Where did you hear that ridiculous claim? Read the law -- "Den som mottar eller skaffer seg eller andre del i utbytte av en straffbar handling, eller som yter bistand til å sikre slikt utbytte for en annen, straffes for heleri med bøter eller fengsel inntil 3 år." (He who receives or acquires for himself or others the revenue resulting from an illegal act, or that aids acquiring this for someone else, shall be punished for "heleri" with fines or prison up to 3 years).

The Supreme Court refuses most request for appeals, and the next level down usually only hear complaints about procedure or application of law and usually put substantial weight on the evidence and findings of the lower court.

In this particular case the proceedings of the lower court (the Tingrett) were audiotaped - I don't know whether the video feed into the press room was also taped.

The verdict (in Norwegian) says quite
clearly that Johansen had done almost exactly what the prosecution claimed he had - but that this was not a crime according to Norwegian law.
I have big problems seeing how the appeals court (lagmannsretten) could twist the law to make it a crime. On the other hand, it's a jury court, and if the prosecution experts can manage to brainwash the lay people on the bench ...

Indeed. They're required by law to do so, by 9-4 of the law on education:

9-4. Books and other teaching aides
In subjects other than Norwegian, one can only use books and other teaching aides that are available in bokmål ["norwegian"] and nynorsk ["new norwegian"] at the same time and same price.

The Norwegian Constitution in Article 97 clearly states that no law can have retroactive effects.

Here is an english translation of the Constitution.

...a similair bill passed half a month ago.

This law (norwegian link) was created and put into use within one day when it was suspected one of Bin Ladens economic supporters was in this country. Really scary.

One of the most frequent argument for why DeCSS is a Good Thing is that Linux people have no DVD decoder available.

DeCSS is a Win32 program to copy the DVD file to the HD. It cannot be used to play DVD on Linux. This argument is thus void when defending Jon Johansen

DeCSS source code can be used to produce players for Linux though. But it is still not a good reason for DeCSS.

And it is my understanding that quality is lost too. (Not sure about that, can anyone confirm/debunk?)

Several people have said that reverse engineering is legal in Norway.

Yes, it is, within certain limits. You can reverse engineer something to "establish the ideas and principles that are the base for the different parts of the program" (Norwegian Copyright Law 39h, third section - Lov om opphavsrett til åndsverk m.v. 39h - tredje ledd).

The fifth section of this law also says that these rights cannot be revoked by an agreement => any licence agreement cannot restrain this right.

Now, this part of the law does not grant you the right to reverse engineer a program and then rip the entire decoding scheme.

39i however gives you the right to "produce a copy of the computerprogram code and translate the code when this is neccesary to obtain the information to obtain functional compliance with a selfdeveloped program and other programs"

But the point here is "functional complicance" (no: funksjonelt samvirke). DeCSS is not ment to function with any of the programs that they ripped the decrypting scheme from.

Also in 39i, second section it states that this is prohibited for

"other means than to make possible functional compilance" that it cannot be "passed on to others, except when this is nessecary to make functional compliance possible" and (this is an important point) it "cannot be used to develop, produce or market a computer program that largely corresponds to the original program in shape, or for any other action that violates the copyright for the program"

DeCSS is meant to preform the same function as the Xing decoder that they reverse engineered so 39i does not apply either.

Now, before a bunch of other laymans lawyers like me pounce on me and say that you have to reverse engineer the Xing Decoder to ensure functional compilance with their DVD player under Linux: The law is about functioning with the program you reverse engineer. Thus I can reverse engineer Word to obtain the knowledge to make a program that functions with Word. Not to make another Word processor.

Jon Johansen did not write the decoding part for DeCSS, therefore they have nothing on him.

True, he did not write the decoding, only the interface, but what he did do was to distibute DeCSS (which is a program violating copyright law). This is what they can nail him on.

Unfortunatly, the copyright law does not provide for much slack when it comes to agruing points like "but information should be free" and "they want to limit my choice of OS". And JJ going out in the media saying things like "we won't respect that" probably won't help him.

The Norwegian goverment is suing JJ on it's own.

False. A Norwegian lawyer went to the police and "pressed charges" (no: leverte anmeldelse). The police are obligated to look into the matter (just like they have to do when you say "so and so stole my car" - without any ohter comparisation). The police discuss it with legal personell and if they have reasonable suspicion that something illegal has taken place the first this they do is to sieze evidence. There goes computers and anything else that might be of value. Including different means to discover the identity of the other people involved.

So the fact is that yes, the Norwegian goverment is suing Jon Johansen, but not on it's own. It's is following up a report by another citizen (the lawyer)

Let me finish by saying that I think it stinks that you can't use DVD's on Linux, but this is because no one bothered to develop one legaly.

If someone want to chew me out for this they can either respond here or send an email to DVD@henriksen.no (last alternative ensures the quickest reply)

- Glenn

Dont think you get appointed a pro bono attorney, unless its a criminal case (state vs person). Atleast I didnt find anything in the online lawbooks about it.