Commercial DVD Software Comes to Linux

timekillerj writes "Turbolinux launched a new version of it's Linux distribution today. The key feature is the first commercial DVD player, provided by Cyberlink. PowerDVD for Linux supports menu navigation, Dolby Digital sound, subtitles, and more."

Comments

What?

[Pig Hogger]

No commercial skipping? No region unlocking?

Plonk!

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

69.00 dollars? No source code?

Plonk!

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's a typo, it's supposed to say $699.00.

Darl McBride

Re:What?

[Fweeky]

They wouldn't get licensed with such features. They don't ship with them on Windows, why do you expect them to do so on Linux?

Don't worry, I'm sure someone will come up with a small layer between your DVD drive and any software which silently strips region codes, PUO's (Prohibited User Operations) and CSS.

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

Linspire delivers this for USD. 5!!

Re:What?

[dillee1]

It is the commercial and region lock that value added the product to $69.
OSS player crippled off those features and thus avail for free.

Re:What?

[vnguyen6]

Enough of the commercial software bashing. Would somebody just tell what is the name of the package or where I can get it?

Re:What?

[Master of Transhuman]

I can't find a reference to any Linux edition of PowerDVD on their Web site.

Must be a version available only through TurboLinux.

One can hope this is not by contract, however, and that Cylink will make it available for other distros.

Also, the price for PowerDVD is only $39.95 for the Standard edition (until end of July, then it's the usual $49.95) and the Deluxe Edition is $62.95 until end of July, then $69.95. This doesn't exactly make it "more expensive" than DVD players just because one can buy a cheap DVD player on sale someplace.

Re:What?

[nmk]

I think its a good thing that more commercial software is starting to become availible on Linux. Who cares if it doesn't have source code. I think one of the reasons companies are reluctant to release applications on Linux is that perception that all Linux apps have to be free and have source code included. Linux may be open source, but that doesn't mean all Linux apps have to be. If Linux users actually start paying for software, and stop bitching about source code, you might actually see some major titles being ported.

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

This doesn't exactly make it "more expensive" than DVD players just because one can buy a cheap DVD player on sale someplace.

so, by costing more, that does not necessarily make it more expensive? Im sorry, i must have been absent that day from math class.

Now, IMO, the influx of commercial software to Linux is a good thing, but not every piece of commercial software that makes its way over is a good thing. Games like ut2k3, good. Apps like MatLab and Mathematica, even WordPerfect, good. Stuff like PowerDVD I dont consider great, but with good sofware coming over, you cant help but expect there to be crapware (not that powerDVD is crapware) that makes its way over the devide aswell. Eventually, BonziBuddy and Gator will come over. Its inevitable.

Re:What?

[dtfinch]

On their ftp site, the non-commercial stuff at least.

It's more of a distribution for people who only want to switch 99% to open source, and are willing to pay for the few things they need that are protected from being implemented in open source by patents or the DMCA.

Re:What?

[Reziac]

I think you're right -- a good deal of the perceived lack of market, thus lack of ports, is actually a perceived "what a bunch of cheapskates, why waste our time if they won't pay money for our product anyway?" Yeah, opensource is a Good Thing[tm]. But so are regular paychecks. In fact, one might say the latter are necessary if we're going to have the former.

PowerDVD for Windows comes with LiteOn DVD drives (and probably others, but I'm familiar with it from there -- nice well-behaved app at least on XP). What would be good is for the same version, ported to linux, to come on the PowerDVD CD provided by LiteOn. It would give both products, and the linux desktop, a nice boost.

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

Just wait and see - this first release of PowerDVD for Linux is the only one you'll see, barring major bugfixes. When they see a total of 19 sales for a userbase supposedly several orders of magnitude larger they'll just fire the product manager and stick to scooping cash out fo the windows bundling market with snowshovels.

It happened with Loki and others and it will happen again. Enterprise decides Linux products are a viable proposition, gets bit in ass - because Linux users just will not pay for software. With DeCSS and other tools they don't have to, and questions of IP ownership or legality hardly keep them awake at night.

And so it goes on. Every few months we get these stories predicting world domination and the collapse of Microsoft, but the same thing always happens. Microsoft releases a new version, makes billions, while Linux users sneer at the nerve of a company that dares to offer a product without giving away their major asset (the source) for the outrageous price of $69.

BTW, people who believe in "Free" software don't believe in regular paychecks, at least not for programmers engaged in programming. That's supposed to be something you do for love, and you earn your actual income through nebulous means like "support". Except that you gave away your source of course so anyone can compete with you in providing that support. Fuck that for a joke...

commercial?

[fodi]

I think I'd prefer non-commercial software, please...

Re:commercial?

[eviltypeguy]

Well, as most people have realised by now, that will probably never be legal in the USA or most of the world thanks to our software patent overlords.

Re:commercial?

[dollargonzo]

both xine and mplayer already play DVDs (althought mplayer doesn't support dvd menus yet). i think the inclusion of powerDVD was to counter the claim by some linux using DeCSS defenders that "well, we don't have a single legal way to play DVDs..."

Re:commercial?

[Anonymous Coward]

Or do you really think you'd go in and tinker with the code and make it better?

You could have it ignore things like the "No fast forwarding" flag pretty easily, or disable Macrovision so it can work through your A/V setup (e.g. TV out through a VCR to your TV).

Re:commercial?

[cyberMalex]

Actually, as an avid Linux user, I'm extremely pleased to see commercial entities realizing the market potential of Linux.

I am personally sick of trudging through MPlayer's DVD navigation abilities, and welcome CyberLink's entry into the fray. (Even if the software isn't open source, is IS native to Linux, which is a first step.)

PowerDVD has been my favorite software MPEG2 decoder for windows for quite a while, and I can only wonder what the power of Linux will do for the same technology.

Re:commercial?

[tmk]

Could it be like on Windows?

Windows Media Player or Real Player can not play DVDs by default. But when you installed WinDVD the players WMP and RealOne can do.

Re:commercial?

[Dave2 Wickham]

Just wondering; have you tried Ogle or Xine? IIRC they both support DVD menus...

Re:commercial?

[WindBourne]

Why not have choice? Personally, I am happy to see this. Now, we will have to improve the non-proprietary to beat it (if that is not already the case).

Re:commercial?

[kandimar]

So, you don't believe in following published standards then?

Re:commercial?

[LostCluster]

It's not the software patent overloads as much as the DVD CCA and DMCA overlords. They own CSS, and DeCSS is illegal. There's no way to legally distribute anything that can decode CSS without sending them a royalty for every copy, so any form of free or Free software is ruled out.

Re:commercial?

[NickeB]

Personally i find OGLE to be an excellent DVD-player for linux, and a good complement to mplayer.

Re:commercial?

[Anonymous Coward]

"PowerDVD has been my favorite software MPEG2 decoder for windows for quite a while"

Not trying to start anything but PowerDVD is widely hailed as having the worst picture quality of any commercial software DVD player. At the AVS forums and pretty much every decent HTPC forum it goes something like Sonic's, Nvidia's, WinDVD, and PowerDVD way at the bottom. Just something to think about.

Re:commercial?

[cyberMalex]

Yeah, but my experience was that mplayer was the most efficient. (Most other players can't play skip-free on some of my lower-end machines.)

Re:commercial?

[Anonymous Coward]

DeCSS is legal in Norway.

Re:commercial?

[Anonymous Coward]

They don't have the DMCA, now do they? .-)

Re:commercial?

[aristotle-dude]

For crying out loud. Not every programmer out there has another job or in-house development to pay the bills with. How do you expect people to earn a living to put food on the table? Donations? ROFLMAO!

Waah, I want free software. Waah, I want the source code. Waah, Apple hardware is too and I want to build my own from substandard parts someone threw away.

If you don't have money, get a real job son.

Don't get me wrong, Open Source is good is a good thing but you should pay for your codecs like everyone else does. Reverse engineering codecs/encryption methods without paying royalties is just as bad as software piracy. Commercial software will be key to the success of linux on the desktop and those that stand in the way of it are only helping MS keep their hold on the market.

I don't know if these people complaining are rich kids with trust funds who have never worked a day in their life or pizza delivery guys who are bitter because they could not afford college. I grew up poor and I had to work hard to get where I am today.

Re:commercial?

[WindBourne]

Actually, in major parts of the world, decss is totally legal. In the US and part of europe, it is illegal, but that may change down the road.

Re:commercial?

[black mariah]

Neither one. They're aging liberal hippie douches that still pine for the days of ITS and spooge in their pants anytime someone talks about LISP. What you're reading is the exhaust fumes from the dumbasses that treat software like a fucking religion.

Re:commercial?

[theguywhosaid]

Even if the algorithm is different than the one they patented or whatnot? Or if "everyone" who recieves a copy it has a legal DVD player? Its pretty safe to assume most people with a DVD drive have a licensed software decoder. Prolly still doesnt DMCA comply, but does that cover the patent issue?

Re:commercial?

[boudie]

And where are you today? Complaining to people that don't have it as good as you in Slashdot. And what did they teach you in college? They taught you to think you're smart. A truly smart person would use Xine or Mplayer and keep the $69 for something worthwhile. Finally, if someone wants to write software to do something that already exists for free and wants to get paid for it they can go hungry.

Re:commercial?

[Nurgled]

Also, PowerDVD has the worst interface of any software DVD player. Why try to mimick a real device with all of the limitations that go along with it?

I don't want a DVD *Player*, I want a set of DVD *Codecs* which can be plugged into my player of choice, where I play everything else. On Windows this means a few DirectShow plugins, but of course there's no standard media codec API for "GNU/Linux".

Re:commercial?

[Jubii]

I think I'd prefer non-commercial software, please...

At the risk of offending some, I must say that this kind of setiment is one thing that's hurting Linux growth. How can we expect software developers to make software for Linux, when we can't assure them that they'll be able to make any money?? And you may ask.. "why do we need commercial software developers anyway?" Because we want more "Joe Sixpack" types to switch to Linux. If you're average user can't go to the store and buy a program for Linux, they're going to find an OS where they can. And right now, there is pretty much no commercial software market in Linux. I've also heard the chicken and egg problem.... to get brand name apps on Linux you need the users, but to get the users you need the brand name apps. Well here's a start, support the commercial software on Linux... even if you don't like commercial apps, do it because you hate Microsoft, and maybe then commercial developers will see that it's worth their time (and money) to port Brand X to Linux.

Re:commercial?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hi, Welcome to Slashdot!

People around here champion standards loud and long until it does not suit their particular agenda in any area. At such a point, said standards become "draconian controls" that must be defeated.

A rule of thumb is to remember that Slashdot is built upon the familiar FOSS hypocrisies, and that the only "freedom" anyone here cares about is his own.

Re:commercial?

[Anonymous Coward]

Also, PowerDVD has the worst interface of any software DVD player. Why try to mimick a real device with all of the limitations that go along with it?

Most Windows DVD player software has a DVD-player-lookalike interface by default. It's what the lusers like. However, most DVD player software is also fully skinnable, and PowerDVD is no exception; I rather like it, now I have a decent functional skin installed.

Re:commercial?

[Anonymous Coward]

Reverse engineering codecs/encryption methods without paying royalties is just as bad as software piracy.

Well, that statement can safely be discounted - it's an attempt at proof by assertion. Kindly provide some support for your claim.

(Let us note in passing that, historically, reverse-engineering without paying royalties has been a spur to growth in the software industry. Oh, what a terrible thing!)

Re:commercial?

[FireFury03]

I wonder if it's legal to run DeCSS as a service on a server outside the US - i.e. it cracks the keys to watch the DVD over the internet - it only has to be done once because your DVD player can then cache the keys for the next time you want to watch the DVD.

Re:commercial?

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

For crying out loud. Not every programmer out there has another job or in-house development to pay the bills with. How do you expect people to earn a living to put food on the table? Donations? ROFLMAO!

Waah! I'm not good enough of an engineer to get a piece of the billions of dollars that IBM, HP and other companies are putting into open-source development so I will pretend that only college kids and trust-fund babies work on open-source software.

Like so many before you, you make the mistake of equating commercial software with proprietary software. You have not been paying attention to the market for the last 10+ years. No soup for you.

PS - I walk the walk myself, taking home my share of that open-source development funding and have done so since before the days of Mosaic. So please, no silly accusations of never having worked a day in my life.

Re:commercial?

[Thomas Shaddack]

So, you don't believe in following published standards then?

Depends on what's their purpose.

If their purpose is streamlining data exchange and storage, then they are good and should be followed. (Exception: unless they are seriously botched, which means another standard is necessary.)

If their purpose is cramming ads down our throats, then an alternative or a standard extension (like the skip-ads patch) should be offered.

Re:commercial?

[Anonymous Coward]

I've bought many DVDs that came with a player (for Windows). So is the DVD distributor paying royalty for each copy of the DVD player software?

If not, then claiming that each copy of DeCSS distributed should include a royalty payment is inconsistent.

If so, then it is consistent, but I will personally ignore it. Why? I'm a good citizen. I obey the speed limit (don't want to hurt anyone). I pay my taxes (ouch. We need public services.) I don't pirate software and I don't share music. But I paid $20 for that Spiderman DVD and I'll be damned if someone's gonna tell me how I can watch it. I understand not copying it and giving it away, but my conscience is clean watching it using DeCSS. The only reason this is an issue is because they think I'm gonna copy it and give it to someone else. Well I'm not.

I think they should try another approach that doesn't offend us non-piraters. Play a 30-second commercial that says "Are you or your kids illegally sharing music?" or something of that nature.

Re:commercial?

[Anonymous Coward]

They own CSS. Correct.
DeCSS is illegal. Correct.
It's illegal without sending royalty. Wrong.

DeCSS is illegal period. This isn't a patent issue with CSS. It's industry trade secret protection.

Even if you don't agree, with patents or trad secrets, even if I wanted to pay, I cannot get permission from them to use their decoding scheme. That's what monopoly power over an intellectual property means. You are the sole provider. You decide who can or cannot use--for example, with patents and unlike copyrights, this *includes* research purposes (cannot use for research without permission); there is no clause protecting research or anything similar to fair use.

DeCSS is illegal because they do not have an open or really known royalty system. This is further complicated given playback is an mpeg2 variant--you also have to get the permission of the mpeg2 holders, but that's realisticly surmountable given mpegla (mpeg licensing association) which has open requirements, but afaik, they have a minimum limit--but one could get around that likely by forming a small group of people who want to purchase legal implementations).

CSS owners have chosen not to do anything like mpegla. So even if I wanted to pay royalties, they have elected not to grant me the right to their intellectual property. I'm dead in the water until they decide they want to sell. Note this has nothing to do directly with price, although indirectly, if you wanted to dumb a few billion, I think they'd listen.

I have, for years, wanted to buy a commercial, standalone (the app, not a whole system) legal Linux or BSD runable DVD application. I contacted a few companies in the past that /. covered who noted they had such an app in the pipeline and the licensing worked out (IBM, Cyberlink, and one other). None would sell to me, whether it be for personal use or to integrate with a product.

No where is it found where I can send royalties even if I wanted to *and* which they would accept and grant me a one app/user right.

DeCSS is illegal because they have chosen to control the scheme, not because of the want for a free (as in money/beer) app, so forget about a legal open source free as in source and beer app. You can likely get away with DeCSS running on Linux boxes because it's small scale; they aren't going to bother going after you.

(The only legal scheme is this (close source, third-party commercial app with presumed license), although I think it would be interesting if a non-licensing body bought a slew of PowerDVDs but sent their own app out (likely illegal but I'd like to read that court case)).

Re:commercial?

[aristotle-dude]

Cool. Do you mind if I come to your house and take whatever I want from your fridge and living room?

If you are not paying for codecs, then you are stealing.

Re:commercial?

[Yottabyte84]

I use ogle as well. and my only complaint about it is that it doesn't deinterlace.

Re:commercial?

[Nurgled]

Is there a "use native widgets instead of filling up RAM with useless bitmap resources" skin?

Re:commercial?

[boudie]

So who should I give myself up to, Jack Valenti? And if you come to my house aristotle-dude, I'll teach ya what they didn't in college.

Re:commercial?

[Master of Transhuman]

Bullshit.

Stealing is using force (or fraud) to take something that someone has and therefore cannot have anymore because you took it.

Copying a codec is and cannot be stealing - unless you break into the developer's computer and copy it. If obtained without force or fraud, the subsequent copying and distribution is not stealing. It may be illegal, but laws are not correct behavior or economically correct - they are merely laws.

Stuff your lame "morals" up your ass.

Re:commercial?

[ianezz]

but of course there's no standard media codec API for "GNU/Linux"

Well, GStreamer is probably going to be it.

Re:commercial?

[Kent Recal]

If you are not paying for codecs, then you are stealing.

Your comment was modded -1 Retard.

Re:commercial?

[aristotle-dude]

*Whoosh* - the sound of what I said going over your head.

I happen to be an inhouse developer. Please don't talk down to me. Many open source projects may claim to be meritocracies but there is a lot of ego driven decision making and brown nosing going around.

I was not talking about Open source projects involving infrastructure such as Apache or mysql but rather application and utility development which I feel should remain in the hands of closed source developers who bother to hire usability experts to make user friendly interfaces and help to de-scope unneeded features which clutter up the interface. Most open source application software is a pain to use and quite uninspired as they try to emulate MS Office to closely.

Open source has it's place in fighting entrenchment of proprietary infrastructure and closed standards but fighting against Microsoft's competitors on the application front only solidifies the position of MS on the desktop.

You want to use Gimp or Open Office? Fine but don't discourage closed source developers from writing software for linux.

PS. I'm quite proud of the fact that I work for a private company that receives no hand outs from other companies.

Re:commercial?

[WWWWolf]

I don't want a DVD *Player*, I want a set of DVD *Codecs* which can be plugged into my player of choice,

...which, incidentally, all have rather horrible user interfaces which also try to mimic "real" player devices.

Keyboard keys work these days pretty well if you bother to learn them, but will someone please invent a media player interface that doesn't stink? Even Apple can't create a completely fool-proof media player interface - oh boy, aren't we in trouble?!

Re:commercial?

[jobsagoodun]

DeCSS is illegal period. This isn't a patent issue with CSS. It's industry trade secret protection.

To be a trade secret, doesn't something have to be secret?

Re:commercial?

[Anonymous Coward]

You probably mean InterActual player. It, like all free Windows DVD players, does not come with a decoder. It relies on the decoder from either your graphics card (if so equipped) or a commercial program. The software doesn't need a special lisence as long as it doesn't include a decoder.

Re:commercial?

[sageman]

I believe ogle actually contributed a considerate amount of code to the xine project to get dvd support in xine using the dvdnav plugin, described as so: "This is probably one of the more ambitious plugins for Xine. Its ultimate aim is complete support for all DVD features (including interactive menus, multiple angles, etc.). Initial versions have been available for some time but once the Ogle DVD player ( http://www.dtek.chalmers.se/groups/dvd/) came to prominence, some of the original code was replaced with code from Ogle for which the original creators of Ogle deserve thanks." (http://davis.lbl.gov/Manuals/XINE/howto-5.html) I remember using ogle for a long time and then finding this out and just using xine for all my movie needs from then on.

Re:commercial?

[IANAAC]

If you are not paying for codecs, then you are stealing.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what it is I'm buying, but I always thought I was buying content - and I buy quite a lot of it. What I choose to use to play it should have no bearing on the content, should it?

Re:commercial?

[sageman]

You know, its not only the rich that go to college, but the intelligent too. Poor folk can still get merit scholarships and I know of quite a few folk (personally) that get free tuition due to their merit awards. Additionally, one could also enroll in Reserve Officer Training Corps and get a considerate amount of their college fees payed off in exchange for a little military time. Save up money, go to a community school, get good grades and you'll be able to get merit scholarships to other schools to continue education.

Sorry, but don't really like the education bashing here.

This post isn't meant as an insult, implied or direct, just saying basically that anyone that works hard enough can be a college graduate.

Re:commercial?

[Anonymous Coward]

I am personally sick of trudging through MPlayer's DVD navigation abilities

Try VideoLAN. DVD navigation, and no stability problems like Xine.

Re:commercial?

[isorox]

Reverse engineering codecs/encryption methods without paying royalties is just as bad as software piracy.

No, it's not. Even ignoring the artificial scarcity that goes against all traditional economic systems, reverse engineering for interopability has traditionally been legal in europe, and it is legal in Austrailia too.

I've got nothing wrong with anyone writing commercial software for Linux, and I have several commercial programs. Mathematic functions should not have any copy restrictions though.

Oh, and I'm encrypting this message with ROT-26. If you decrypt it you are as bad as what you claim to detest.

Re:commercial?

[mrchaotica]

I don't give a damn about programmers being able to earn a living! Patents exists as an incentive to create, not as an entitlement to people with a failing business plan!

Waah, I can't compete in a free economy anymore so I'm going to whine to the Government for help!

If you can't compete, then find a different business. Or FUCKING STARVE, AND GOOD RIDDANCE TO YOU!!!

Re:commercial?

[boudie]

If someone is poor and can't afford to go to college, you can still learn all you need about computers for nothing, just time and effort. That is if you're using free software. Learning to compile mplayer with libdvdcss is a good start. I'm a high school drop out and have to ACTUALLY WORK, you know, physical labour. It only requires grade four skills, but still pays $35,000 a year. Would like to go to college but can't afford the cut in pay/benefits that come with most technology jobs these days. And I won't have to move to India either.

Re:commercial?

[Anonymous Coward]

I crack my CSS keys with a DeCSS reflector beacon that is orbiting my CPU core in hyperspace. It doesn't underlie the law of man, not even that of physics as we know it. To enable this, compile xine with the --enable-hyperspace and --legalize-it options. My right to believe in this procedure is guaranteed by the NUTS act of 2004.

Re:commercial?

[tepples]

It's not the software patent overloads as much as the DVD CCA and DMCA overlords.

DVD-Video uses MPEG-2 and Dolby Digital codecs, both of which are covered by U.S. patents and foreign counterparts. See also MPEG LA.

Re:commercial?

[joeljkp]

I wonder if an enterprising individual could sell binary DVD codecs only. Like libcss but binary and for a small ($5) fee.

Re:commercial?

[nutshell42]

In my experience xine skips less if you've got enough power to play it without framedrops (long version: xine is threaded, mplayer not, mplayer is slightly faster and if you're system's only good enough to play with framedrops mplayer produces less but if your system is capable of playing the video-stream xine is smoother because mplayer has skips when one frame is especially cpu intensive while the threaded architecture of xine can compensate)

Both have linearblend deinterlacing and inverse telecine (if you've got the horsepower and mplayer - xine has it but it's shitty in the post-1.0rc2 versions =/ ) which beats the crap out of the deinterlacing of PowerDVD - in fact all Windows players I've seen have deinterlacing so bad I wonder what I'm (and my friends - all versions came with different graphic cards, DVD-Roms etc) paying them for.

Re:commercial?

[Anonymous Coward]

why even bother with the cache?
why not set up a dvd-db, just like cddb, except this one stores CSS keys instead of song titles...

a lot of free players out there would jump on including support for it in the software... automatically look up the dvd and use the key to open the css, without violating the DMCA (it's not circumvention if you're not actually use decss yourself).

Although I'm sure this could be seen as a slippery slope - using this logic it could be seen as being OK to borrow a stolen car from the guy who stole it, because you didn't technically steal it yourself.

Re:commercial?

[tzanger]

You've got mplayer and xine. Now bugger off and let us big boys talk.

Re:commercial?

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree. I'm always extremely pleased to see a company that has Linux products. Closed source has its place, in a lot of cases lock-in is imposible even with closed source. IBM, RH, Mandrake, Nvidia, etc all deserve respect for their support of our favorite free (as in freedom) platform.
I can't comment on PowerDVD, I've never seen it, but I welcome it to the party.

Re:commercial?

[Anonymous Coward]

I never went to college smartass.

I think we all figured that out from your ill-informed post.

Re:commercial?

[a_karbon_devel_005]

Modded insightful? pfft.

I think I'd prefer non-commercial software, please...

Nothing stopping you... write it.

Oooh wait there is something stopping you, patent/copyright laws.

STFU and be appreciative that we can finally get a legal player.

Re:commercial?

[ClosedSource]

In this case, it does. The protections built into a licensed player are part of the economics of the sale of the content. They could have increased the cost of the content as an alternative, but they decided to offer cheap and protected content instead. I believe most consumers would prefer the cheap option.

Re:commercial?

[cbr2702]

If you're average user can't go to the store and buy a program for Linux, they're going to find an OS where they can.

Why do we assume that the average user would rather go to the store and buy the program? The average user now has internet acess and soon will have boadband, and going to the store is a bother. With a distro like Lindos/Linspire with its simplified version of apt-get, you can look at a wider selection of programs in a wider selection of categories than you can in a store, and then get the one you want for free. Updates/upgrades are very simple and can even be scheduled. Buying software at a store is inneficient and outmoded.

Re:commercial?

[ClosedSource]

Well, a lot of average users do buy software at a store whether they want to or not. But I don't think that was the grandparent's main point. The point was that if current Linux users won't buy closed source software, then nobody will make any for Linux.

Since the average user buys most of their software from closed source companies, the lack of closed source titles for Linux will inhibit Linux's growth.

Re:commercial?

[Anonymous Coward]

that doesn't matter.
What (most?) consumers prefer is not really an argument. I bet most would prefer to pirate content anyway.

Secondly, last time I checked DVDs were a lot more expensive than VHS tapes, so what you say is currently not the case. (ok, the quality is less, but there is no way we can check what would be the content price without encryption, so there is absolutely no proof to backup your statements).

In addition, if it is part of the economics it suggest that it makes more money for the providers, and at the same time it is cheaper for the consumers? I have a problem understanding that.

For me, this only shows they choose a lame business system.

Re:commercial?

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

Please don't talk down to me.

You set a poor precedent with your onomatopoeiac pronuciations and implications that people who disagree with you are no-talent, bitter losers. What's the matter? You can dish it out but you can't take it?

I was not talking about Open source projects involving infrastructure such as Apache or mysql

So what? Did I say anything about infrastructure? Oh you assumed that all those billions are just going into the kernel and back-end tools? I think you still haven't been paying close attention. Sun has been doing usability research with gnome. Mozilla is as focused on end-user stuff as they are on the API. Novell's Ximian is all about Evolution and their Desktop. Music composition and creation tools for linux are starting to seriously compete with expensive stuff from the likes of Steinberg. Meanwhile Free applications like vlc blow away powerdvd in terms of functionality and quality of output. Other than poorly thought out legal constructs, aka software patents, standing in the way, there is no reason to use powerdvd over the Free alternatives. Powerdvd is not the best tool for the job.

PS. I'm quite proud of the fact that I work for a private company that receives no hand outs from other companies.

WTF? What the hell does that mean? The best I can make out is you seem to think that companies like IBM and Novell are giving money away, no strings attached, to other companies working on Free software? If that's the case you have a seriously poor grasp of the way business works. And furthermore, 10 to 1 your "private company" takes "handouts" from the government in the form of tax breaks if not outright grants, few companies of any size in America do otherwise.

Re:commercial?

[Airw0lf]

I wonder if it's legal to run DeCSS as a service on a server outside the US

Yup, let's host it in Norway.

Re:commercial?

[LordLucless]

I paid their royalties when I bought my DVD. Now I want to watch it. They want me to pay them for the encryption keys to something I have already bought. It would be like charging $60 for Doom 3 - and then another $60 for the decryption keys that actually let you install it.

Re:commercial?

[Anonymous Coward]

Loser.

Re:commercial?

[Nutria]

Stealing is using force (or fraud) to take something that someone has and therefore cannot have anymore because you took it.

Having just spoken to My Aunt The Lawyer, I can categorically say: your view of "stealing" is limited. There is also plain old theft. Think of shoplifting if you are confused.

For example, when you shoplift, you aren't using force (unless it's hard to jam that CD under your belt), and it's not fraud, but you are stealing. So, it's simple theft.

In the case of using commercial software which you did not pay for, well, there are laws against that, which are about as effective as dope laws, but, still, it is a crime.

Re:commercial?

[Anonymous Coward]

onomatopoeiac?

Re:commercial?

[nathanh]

Don't get me wrong, Open Source is good is a good thing but you should pay for your codecs like everyone else does. Reverse engineering codecs/encryption methods without paying royalties is just as bad as software piracy.

I disagree. Software piracy I'll agree is 100% wrong. Software patents on the other hand are an abomination in computing.

I grew up poor and I had to work hard to get where I am today.

Boo fucking hoo. So did many of the rest of us. But that doesn't mean we all agree with you that software patents are a good thing.

Re:commercial?

[nathanh]

At the risk of offending some, I must say that this kind of setiment is one thing that's hurting Linux growth.

Couple of points.

I'd be fine with it if Linux growth stops right now. It's a good size, there's a high percentage of developers, we wield enough buying power to get the attention of many hardware manufacturers, we have mountains of software, etc. Sure, I wouldn't mind if Linux achieves "World Domination", but I wouldn't compromise the benefits of Linux (like no licensing hassles) in order to increase the size. As RMS loves to say, be wary of companies bearing gifts who merely ask that you relinquish a little freedom in exchange. It's a Faustian bargain.

I agree that closed-source applications can be a good thing but only when they add value. I don't see a closed-source DVD player as being particularly useful to modern Linux distributions. I've been using Totem for ages and it works fine, including menus, and Totem integrates nicely with the GNOME desktop. PowerDVD isn't even a decent player (I've used it on Windows and it sucked) so why would I care about PowerDVD on Linux?

Final point. Apparently software patents and the DMCA makes it illegal to use DVD players like Totem but legal to use PowerDVD. That just shits me. My software choices being dictated by some pathetic USPTO decision. I'd rather not play DVDs at all.

Re:commercial?

[Anonymous Coward]

What about a freedb style database of keys for DVDs?
Would that also run foul of the DMCA?

Re:commercial?

[Alsee]

Why not have choice?

What a wonderful idea.

Now, we will have to improve the non-proprietary to beat it

AND GO TO PRISON.

The US's DMCA and the EU's with the EUCD and other countries with equivalant laws all make it CRIMINAL to use or to distribute a choice.

Those in the US, write your senator and congressman asking them to co-sponsor the DMCRA which de-criminalizes the use and distribution of alternatives.

-

Re:commercial?

[Alsee]

Reverse engineering

Is the very foundation of the PC industry itself. Compaq attacked the IBM-BIOS with 15 programmers, a million dollars, and several months to reverse enginereer it. This event is widly recognized within the industry as the watershed moment responsible for the home PC explosion.

How the hell is it "piracy" if I do the work to write my own code to play my files? How the hell is it piracy if I sell or otherwise distribute MY work and MY code to other people to use to play THEIR files?

-

Re:commercial?

[wolrahnaes]

Although I'm sure this could be seen as a slippery slope - using this logic it could be seen as being OK to borrow a stolen car from the guy who stole it, because you didn't technically steal it yourself.

Not the same. There you're possessing stolen property, and the other party also committed a crime.

A better analogy would be comparing this to a child who wants to go somewhere. He/she can't legally drive, so he/she asks a parent to take them somewhere.

According to the DMCA, I can't legally break CSS when in this country. I can, however, ask someone else who can legally do this to do it for me.

Re:commercial?

[dvdeug]

Most open source application software is a pain to use and quite uninspired as they try to emulate MS Office to closely.

Have you even tried TeXmacs? LyX? Tex & Emacs? Even Abiword? People want MS Office, so that's what Open Office is. If you don't want MS Office, there's several options for you to take.

application and utility development which I feel should remain in the hands of closed source developers

It's a free society; if I want to work on a program and make it open source, then I will. That's doesn't stop you from working on a closed source program. And in a capitalist society, it's may the best program win.

If people prefer the closed source programs to the open source programs (overall, money included), then they will use them. If people prefer the open source programs to closed source programs (overall, usability included), then they will use them, and in a free society no one has the right to tell them otherwise.

fighting against Microsoft's competitors on the application front only solidifies the position of MS on the desktop.

If OpenOffice only hurts Microsoft's competitors, what makes StarOffice, or any other Microsoft competitor, hurt Microsoft?

Re:commercial?

[chgros]

Reverse engineering codecs/encryption methods without paying royalties is just as bad as software piracy
Note that in this case there are no patents involved (the CSS is so lousy it certainly doesn't deserve a patent). There is no "innovation" "stolen" when reverse-engineering the encryption. There is no reason to pay anyone to decrypt a DVD, which is easy to do. It's just illegal under the DMCA.

Re:commercial?

[BillyBlaze]

I don't think the markets are really all that different. Nobody, Windows or Linux, is going to pay for something they know they can get for free within their moral limits. For example, I often buy commercial games (especially those that work in Linux), because there aren't really comparable free games, and I won't infringe copyright. But in this instance, why should I pay for DVD playing software when I can get better software for free? I consider using the illegal DeCSS not only not wrong, but almost my civic duty. As for converting Joe Sixpack, he'd rather already have something than have to go to a store and buy it.

Re:commercial?

[Anonymous Coward]

I am perfectly happpy to pay for the software, but I want a way to be absolutely certain that there is nothing surreptitious in the software (e.g.call home or other spying features) and I want a decent license. In fact it would be worth it to me to pay a premium if it is GPL'd.

With closed source you are at the mercy of the company.

Re:commercial?

[Anonymous Coward]

You must be competing for "Most Ignorant Comment" here on slashdot.

Congratulations, you're in the Top-10!

Re:commercial?

[broeman]

well, it might be illegal in your country. My Danish government (and neighbour-countries) allow DeCSS, because of unfair treatment to Linux or other OSes.

This is not something I made up. I went into my government homepage on Digital Rights, and it clearly states: "You are allowed: to break codes and encryption of a DVD-movie, a music-cd or netradio in that extend, that it is necessary to see the movie or listen to the music in private. It is for example not illegal, that if you break the encryption on a DVD, if it is necessary to play the DVD on your private PC by help of an Linux Operating System". (Excuse me for the bad translation ;)

Re:commercial?

[Anonymous Coward]

What the hell do you do for a living?

Re:commercial?

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course there's nothing preventing GPL'd code from including spyware. Spyware is primarily an alternative revenue source for companies that give away their products rather then sell them.

Re:commercial?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's fine, but if Linux keeps its current market share then closed source software will probably continue to dominate and open source will remain a niche offering.

Re:commercial?

[Reziac]

While I agree that PowerDVD's gimmicky *default* interface is stinky (as with ALL apps that try to emulate a meatspace device) -- I've found the best way to use it is in "fullscreen" mode, which makes the stinky interface go away entirely. Then just use RightClick to access the context menu during playback. Also there is an action-sensitive [self-hiding] topbar menu which contains all the other menus and options. So there's no need to use the stinky part. :)

While I haven't used other DVD playback apps, it's partly due to lack of motivation: PowerDVD proved very well-mannered and intuitive (do what seems obvious, and usually the expected happens), it hasn't crashed in hundreds of hours of use, and it doesn't overwhelm the poor old P3-500.

Anyway, I'm pleased that it's now available for linux, and hope to see both linux and Windows versions bundled with DVD drives in the future.

Re:commercial?

[bersl2]

I just spent 5 hours incoherently disagreeing with you. I have just deleted all of it, because it can be stated so much more... better...

-------------

Save electricity and bandwidth, the scarcity of information is completely artificial. Without scarcity, there is no money. If you want to support that sort of thing, go ahead.

And OK, we'll stop reverse engineering things. When people stop "pirating" commercial software at the same time. If illegal proliferation of free software at the expense of commercial software is bad for Linux, then illegal proliferation of commercial software on Windows as much keeps MS in power. I guarantee, if you get rid of all the street vendors in Asia selling cracked versions of Windows for $10, and all of the warez on peer-to-peer networks and Usenet, so many more people would be receptive to free software and open formats. You cannot deny that the desire to have software for free (or almost) is powerful and widespread. And there really is very little reason not to oblige.

Re:commercial?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah no, it's you that's whining. I'm a programmer earning a living quite nicely thanks very much. The free economy says that what I do has value, and many people are willing to pay for that value - in fact many collectives of people (companies) are willing to pay me regularly to retain my services just in case I or someone in a similar position thinks of a new way to create value. It's called a job.

Thing is, I'm not stupid enough to try to sell to a market full of thieving cockheads like you.

So next time you want an application for CAD, EDA, Mathematical applications, Photo manipulation (the GIMP sucks - period) FUCKING WRITE IT YOURSELF. Except that you can't. If you could do things like that then you wouldn't be a pathetic lowly support person. Bwahahahaha!

Re:commercial?

[Anonymous Coward]

Troll, my oh-so-much-smaller-than-RMS'-ass.

This is Insightful.

When people realize this it usually means that have achieved what is usually called maturity. (Often it is the same day they leave Slashdot for good - which is why a majority on Slashdot always spouts this excrement.) In fact it means they have realized what responsibility is all about - and saying that information wants to be free doesn't mean it costs nothing to create.

Re:commercial?

[RedBear]

Waah, I want free software.

If you don't have money, get a real job son.

I don't want free software, but I do want Free Software, and I'll pay for it if it's something I need or want. I know a lot of others will too. It's not just about getting free stuff. It's not really about money at all. It's about choices and control. As in, who gets to control my computer, my data and by extension my world and my life.

Don't get me wrong, Open Source is good is a good thing but you should pay for your codecs like everyone else does.

Any particular reason? Just because a corporation wants it that way?

Reverse engineering codecs/encryption methods without paying royalties is just as bad as software piracy.

So if someone patents a codec or algorithm that is so simple you could solve it in your head in 5 seconds, you should pay them royalties for that thought? There are many reasons that software and algorithm patents are bad. The simplest one is that patenting such things stifles innovation and damages our economy relative the rest of the world. There are much smarter people than me that have been trying to point this out for decades now.

Commercial software will be key to the success of linux on the desktop and those that stand in the way of it are only helping MS keep their hold on the market.

Commercial software is not required to be proprietary. People like free stuff, but most of us will be willing to pay for commercial software that doesn't attempt to exert unnecessary control over our computers, our data, or our lives. So yes, instead of paying for this crippled proprietary software, many of us will be waiting for a Free-as-in-speech implementation. By coincidence this usually means it will also be free-as-in-beer. Kudos to the first company that markets a Free-as-in-speech implementation of something like this and charges money for it. They will make money.

Re:commercial?

[julesh]

DeCSS is illegal period. This isn't a patent issue with CSS. It's industry trade secret protection.

Not in Europe it isn't. Europe (as a whole) doesn't have any general form of legal trade secret protection, other than the non-disclosure agreement -- and the limit of the use of that is that the disclosing party will have to pay damages. I don't think Johanssen was a signatory to any NDAs on CSS encryption.

The limit of protection of CSS in Europe is what they can get away with calling 'contributory copyright infringement' under the EUCD (same as it being the DMCA that's used against DeCSS in the US), and the more people using DeCSS in order to play their DVDs the better the case for a "substantial non-infringing use" we have.

I believe most EU countries are yet to make any form of decision over the legality of DeCSS. My suspicion is that a fair proportion would find it to be a legal and legitimate tool.

Re:commercial?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know if these people complaining are rich kids with trust funds who have never worked a day in their life or pizza delivery guys who are bitter because they could not afford college. I grew up poor and I had to work hard to get where I am today.

Well... some of those people may simply be complaining about their fair use of purchased items.

For example, what if your car had to be serviced by the manufacturer's mechanic? The company made the car posssible, added their technology, so only the company can access your car's systems???

I can imagine the scene... a young man tries to sell his tricked-out car, only to find that the car is Honda's intellectual property, and he is a criminal for modifying it and 'gasp' trying to redistribute it!!!!! Now his brain is in violation of the law because he is not permitted to understand the inner workings of the engine, as that technology is Honda's too!

Re:commercial?

[julesh]

utility development which I feel should remain in the hands of closed source developers who bother to hire usability experts

Maybe in some cases you are right. A lot of commercial applications have better UIs than their free counterparts.

However, this story is about PowerDVD -- I downloaded the windows trial of it a few weeks ago and deleted it after about two days. It has the most obscure and hard to use user interface I've ever seen. Controls that you need to use frequently are hidden and need to be revealed by clicking on what looks like a piece of window decoration. There are buttons which change purpose depending on what the application is doing, and which use the same inexplicable icon in both modes. There doesn't seem to be any way to jump to a particular point in the file you're playing (this is a lack of a feature, but an important one for usability that exists in almost all other media player applications).

Re:commercial?

[julesh]

Oh, I forgot. If you drag & drop a directory containing a DVD image onto the application, it starts playing the contents of the image files. But it won't let you view the DVD's menu. In order to do that, you need to open the directory by clicking on one of those buttons with an obscure icon and no tool-tip.

Re:commercial?

[Des Herriott]

you should pay for your codecs like everyone else does

Rubbish. I paid for my DVD's, and I paid for my DVD-ROM drive. Why the hell should I have to pay yet again for the privilege of viewing my DVD's on my DVD-ROM drive? Oh wait, I don't have to.

Re:commercial?

[mrchaotica]

Well, I see that you're such a big pussy that you reply as AC. I also see that you have such rudimentary reading comprehension skills that you completely missed the point of my argument, so here it is:

I wasn't talking about proprietary software in general, I was talking about the stuff that's only successful because it leans on the DMCA or patents rather than competing on it's own merits. DRM and proprietary codecs fall into that category. "Intellectual property" is a government-given privilage, not a right, revocable as soon as it ceases "to promote the progress of science and useful arts." DRM and patent-encumbered codecs exist to limit progress, and as such are wrong.

I don't have a problem with AutoCAD, Mathematica, or Photoshop -- as long as they don't whine to the government to prop up their business model when or if somebody (such as Free software) beats them with a better product.

Oh, and by the way -- I'm a college student paying my way through school too, not a "thieving cockhead," thank you very much!

Re:commercial?

[Master of Transhuman]

You really are a moron, aren't you?

When I say "force", I mean the act of taking something that someone else would prevent you from taking if they were aware of it. This is force - or more precisely coercion. If you want to distinguish "force" as being direct application of force to someone's person to take something, fine. It's a braindead distinction in this context.

Of course, we could refer to Dean Martin in the move "Bandolero":

His bank robbers enter a bank where a customer is complaining about his bank loan coming due. The bank clerk says nobody forced the customer to take out a loan. So the customer turns to Martin and says, "Force? Me with a wife and kids and two hens looking for a rooster, and all this fool can say is force?" Whereupon Dino pulls out a gun, shoves it at the teller and says, "Never mind the hard stuff, we'll just take the paper." Then he turns to the customer and says, "This is force, mister."

Theft is force. Any seizure of property that is not yours is theft, force, whatever you want to call it. "Intellectual property" is not property - it is an oxymoron. And only morons believe in it.

Re:commercial?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, you're a moron. Because when you grow and and get a job as a programmer and the company that employs you fires you because they don't make any money from what you do, you'll realize how young and naive you were when you thought anything non-hardware could be free.

Of course this assumes you'll get a degree, a major assumption. More realistic to predict you'll be just another network support lackey, enforcing the IP rules of your boss.

Re:commercial?

[Lours]

I think I'd prefer non-commercial software, please...

I think I'd prefer non closed source software.

Paying for someone else's efforts is not something I despise, it's the very reason why I can pay my bills each month : because my employer gives me money as a compensation for my working for him.

I just can't see what's wrong with paying to have something that can't be considered a public service. Everything has a price, live with it !
Either it's money, either it's a developer's time, but nothing's ever free.

The problem here, is seing closed-source software spreading on linux.
That, is much more of a concern to me than to pay for a ready-to-use,easy-to-setup,no-rtfm-support piece of software.

Re:commercial?

[Anonymous Coward]

Cool. Do you mind if I come to your house and take whatever I want from your fridge and living room?

I want you to pay me a royalty everytime you use something from your fridge or living room. That's how I want to make my money. If you don't do it, then you are putting me out of work and "stealing" from me.

If you are not paying for codecs, then you are stealing.

What an asinine statement. Using free software does not equate to stealing, no matter how many times you shills say so.

DeCSS?

[falcon9x]

So then what happens to DeCSS? IIRC, the main defense of DeCSS was that no Linux player existed. Well... now one exists, but I'm sure people don't want to give up their ability to use open-source alternatives. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Re:DeCSS?

[tomhudson]

So then what happens to DeCSS? IIRC, the main defense of DeCSS was that no Linux player existed. Well... now one exists, but I'm sure people don't want to give up their ability to use open-source alternatives. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

I don't think it will change anything. Just because there are commercial products doesn't mean you have to use them.

It was one of the arguments, not the only one :-)

Re:DeCSS?

[Anonymous Coward]

> It was one of the arguments, not the only one :-)

Exactly. In the Norwegian DeCSS trial the main argument wasn't "Decrypting DVDs under Linux is not illegal". It was "Decrypting DVDs is not illegal".

Laws don't specify operating systems.

Re:DeCSS?

[xsecrets]

Yes not to mention that the only way I see to get this software is purchasing this distrobution. I went to cyberlinks webpages and no mention whatsoever of a linux version.

Re:DeCSS?

[norite]

You are correct. No mention of Linux whatsoever.
(From their website)

System Requirements
Operating Systems: Microsoft Windows 98SE, Windows ME, Windows 2000, Windows XP

Processor: Intel Pentium II 350MHz* or above, or any Athlon processor

* To enable audio effects such as Dolby Headphone, Dolby Virtual Speaker, SRS TruSurround XT, CLMEI(TM), and Dolby Pro Logic II decoder, or to play DVD titles with DTS digital surround tracks, it is recommended to use a 400MHz or higher processor system and at least 128MB of system RAM. * CLPV(TM) and CLEV(TM) are sophisticated video processing technologies that require higher CPU power. If both of them are enabled, together with the audio effects above, it is recommended to have a Pentium®-M/Centrino®, Pentium® 4, Athlon® 1.0GHz, or a system with equivalent or higher performance.

Memory: 64 MB RAM or above. To enable audio effects, 128MB of system RAM is recommended.

Screen Resolution: 800 x 600 pixels min., 1024 * 768 recommended

Audio Device: PCI sound card, USB audio box or motherboard built-in audio device

Hard Disk Space: Hard disk requirement of at least 40MB

Optical Device: DVD-ROM, DVD-R/RW, DVD-RAM, or DVD+RW drive with 1394, ATAPI, SCSI, USB 2.0, or Card Bus interface

Video Display: Display card supporting DirectDraw overlay

...I know it's a software decoder, but it would be a really nice touch if it detects that you have a hardware decoder card installed, and uses that instead of shunting everything off to the processor. I tried an earlier version of PowerDVD (version 2.55 I think...) that came bundled with my DVD/cd writer combo drive on a Celeron 500MhZ system with 256Mb RAM and it was crap. Choppy as hell, even with all other programs turned off, and the image quality was very poor.
I later got a creative DVD hardware card and that solved the problem; perfectly smooth payback, with excellent image clarity. So I tried running CyberDVD again, but the idiot program still shunted everything off to the the CPU and ignored the decoder card. So I uninstalled it and chucked the CD in the bin.

Re:DeCSS?

[Flower]

There is a press release. Product only seems available to OEMs.

Wow...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah...so this is like, how many years since the big DeCSS thingy? No one thought this was a potential market until now?

Re:Wow...

[BinLadenMyHero]

sorry, but both doom and quake have native linux versions.

This is great, except that...

[Anonymous Coward]

Cyberlink PowerDVD is a large, steaming pile of offal. I rely on Xine, which is thousands of times more functional.

Having said that, I am glad Cyberlink bothered with a Linux version of their software. No matter how crappy the product (as far as one anonymous poster goes), committing your coders to a porting effort like this takes guts.

Re:This is great, except that...

[jridley]

Actually, I use PowerDVD under W2K and have no problems with it. It's never caused me any trouble at all. Can say the same for WinDVD or several other products. Also it makes it very easy to play images ripped to hard drive, VOB files, etc. It does all the language, audio track, multiangle, etc that I've ever tried on it.

What's the problem with it, exactly? Is it only a problem on the Linux version? How does it compare to the Windows version of Xine :-)?

Re:This is great, except that...

[rokzy]

I think PowerDVD is fantastic, I use it under Windows.

speaking of which, Windows just lost its major feature for me - DVD playback. (I know about DeCSS, I want legal solutions and don't care about money)

if I weren't addicted to Virtual Pool 3 MS would be dead to me.

Re:This is great, except that...

[shaitand]

Have you tried virtual pool 3 under the new winex (www.transgaming.com).

Witht he new directx 9 support you can play damn near anything.

for $15 you get a 3 month subscription. That allows you a vote in what games/features they work on each month, and any updates/new versions that come out in that time.

Re:This is great, except that...

[geminidomino]

Witht he new directx 9 support you can play damn near anything.

Tell that to TIE Fighter 95. =\

Re:This is great, except that...

[Centove]

Yet it appears the only way to get this version is with the turbo linux distribution. Not one mention of it on cyberlink's site at all. Yet another stealth port.

Re:This is great, except that...

[tqft]

does European Air War work though?

Mplayer? Xine

[Biogenesis]

Doesn't this exist already because of the libdvdcss/libdvdread librarys and mplayer/ogle/xine?

Re:Mplayer? Xine

[Nekkrist]

I believe the big deal is that technically its illegal to use those libraries since you haven't paid the licencing fee to actually have the right to play DVDs. The advent of commecial DVD software means that you can now legally play DVDs on your Linux box.

The fact that this software even exists commercially is a step towards commercial recognition of Linux as a viable desktop platform.

Re:Mplayer? Xine

[DAldredge]

What license fees? CSS was a trade secret, there are no keed to use it.

Or are you talking about somthing else?

Re:Mplayer? Xine

[uberdave]

So, if we buy the DVD, buy the hardware, and buy the libraries, we can legally run mplayer/xine?

Re:Mplayer? Xine

[afd8856]

Please explain how paing a 70$ tax to a private bussiness will make it legal to use the product you have paid for (the DVD).

Re:Mplayer? Xine

[Anonymous Coward]

MPEG2, Dolby, etc.

It violates the GPL to distribute this software in the US and many other countries.

Re:Mplayer? Xine

[uberdave]

Well, I can't make sense of this either. However, the theory goes something like this:

1 - DVD contains encrypted data.
2 - You need a decryption algorithm to extract the data.
3 - The algorithm is owned by a third party.
4 - They make a profit.

Re:Mplayer? Xine

[Waffle Iron]

Or are you talking about somthing else?

Something else besides keed, anyway.

Re:Mplayer? Xine

[farmerboy1967]

Ok, if Mplayer and Xine can both use M$ .dll codecs to play other video formats, Why can't the codecs be extracted from any DVD player software that came with your DVD player???

Re:Mplayer? Xine

[aristotle-dude]

Yes, except you are infringing on intellectual property rights. In other words, it's illegal.

You may have had some moral ground to stand on because there were no licensed players on linux before but not now.

Re:Mplayer? Xine

[black mariah]

Tell me, do you own a CD player? A VCR? Why are you such a whiny bitch about paying for a fucking DVD player then?

compare!

[TedCheshireAcad]

Old and Busted: DeCSS
New Hotness: Commercial DVD software

Re:compare!

[13Echo]

In most respects, DeCSS is actually old and busted. In fact, it's seldom used anymore. Most players use "libdvdcss", which was written independently of DeCSS. MPlayer even includes patched versions of libdvdread and libdvdcss within its own source.

Re:compare!

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, libdvdcss is developed by VideoLAN. DVD-Jon is a VideoLAN developer and is even listed in the libdvdcss AUTHORS file. So how "independently" is up for debate. It certainly wasn't developed in a vacuum.

From a legal perspective it doesn't matter. DeCSS has been ruled legal in Norway. If DeCSS is illegal in a non-free country like the US, then libdvdcss most likely is illegal in the US too.

It is not the first.

[stm2]

Lindows (or Linspire) has one commercial DVD player. It was released more than a year ago. It cost 4.95 for CNR members.

Re:It is not the first.

[Performaman]

But that's only avadable to Linspire/Lindows users.

Re:It is not the first.

[13Echo]

This is true. Linspire's DVD player is essentially just XINE with an alleged "commercial license" to utilize the DVD libraries.

http://www.linspire.com/lindows_dvd_info.php

Of course, odds are that they do have to have the source available for the GPL libdvdcss libraries that it uses, so does that mean that they are violating trade secrets as well? Or, I wonder if they rewrote portions of XINE to link against some commercial DVD libraries instead?

Re:It is not the first.

[upsidedown_duck]

Linspire's DVD player is essentially just XINE with an alleged "commercial license" to utilize the DVD libraries.

This is one way companies like Lindows can be of service. There are many people out there who are sitting on the legal fence wondering about playing DVDs or using GIF files, etc., and, by buying a commercial distribution, many of these issues just get washed away. They can benefit simultaneously from open source and commercial licensing, and this is where centrist individuals would feel most comfortable.

This is one thing I like about Solaris. I actually bought my RTU license from Sun, so I know everything in my Solaris distribution is legit (dozens of Sun lawyers can't be wrong...right?). If someone asks about a Gif file, I can say "I made it under Solaris, go away." Of course, I would prefer PNGs, but Gifs aren't the only example of patent wierdness: OpenGL Microsoft patents, SCO IP claims, and JPEG shenanigans are someother things I can think of.

Re:It is not the first.

[julesh]

Of course, odds are that they do have to have the source available for the GPL libdvdcss libraries that it uses, so does that mean that they are violating trade secrets as well?

Can you point me to anywhere the MPAA/whoever has tried to prosecute CSS related developers/distributors for exposing trade secrets? I don't believe such an argument would stand up in court, because in order to be protected as a trade secret, it must be impossible to derive from publicly released material (?), which is precisely how DeCSS, and presumably libdvdcss, was developed.

Yes...But...

[reality-bytes]

There are already some great players for Linux available (they've been around for ages) but they exist in a legal grey-area.

Remember, just because you bought the DVD and bought the hardware to play it back with doesn't mean you are neccesarily allowed to choose what software you use to play it back!

Re:Yes...But...

[Anonymous Coward]

> There are already some great players for Linux available (they've been around for ages) but they exist in a legal grey-area.

They are legal in Norway.

Re:Yes...But...

[drinkypoo]

Some great players? Show me the DVD player with full menu support and the ability to play all the DVDs that my Xbox's DVD player (the built in one) plays and I'll be impressed. Oh yes, and it must work on a 700MHz Celeron.

Re:Yes...But...

[rjw57]

which DVD menu doesn't work with xine? And I watch DVDs on my 500MHz PIII so a 700MHz Celery should manage it.

Re:Yes...But...

[ScottGant]

Totem Movie Player.

Full menu support, subtitle support. Alternate audio track support.

Also, what other player other than the built in one does the Xbox have?

Does it work on a 700Mhz celeron...don't know, do they even make those anymore other than for the Xbox? If so, why would you want to when there are better processors available that are just as cheap.

Anything else?

Re:Yes...But...

[jx100]

The XBox has a built in DVD player? I thought you had to pay for it separately with the remote. I know my XBox doesn't play DVDs unless I use linux on it.

Re:Yes...But...

[jez9999]

I watch DVDs on my 500MHz PIII so a 700MHz Celery should manage it.

You don't know much about hardware, do you? :-)

Re:Yes...But...

[dj245]

Remember, just because you bought the DVD and bought the hardware to play it back with doesn't mean you are neccesarily allowed to choose what software you use to play it back!

King Kong XII, the movie! You've seen it in theaters and now its coming home. Own it now, er, no wait, um, License it now on DVD and VHS!

Re:Yes...But...

[hawkeyeMI]

If you mod it you can install software that will play DVDs without a remote thingie. Also it will play any region. They could easily have made it play DVDs without the remote, but then they couldn't have sold remotes to customers at exorbitant prices.

Re:Yes...But...

[Ben Hutchings]

The most advantage of Totem over most other media players is that it has a standard Gtk 2 interface instead of skins.

Re:Yes...But...

[mikael]

I just tried downloading and installing Xine DVD player for Fedora Core 2. As an experiment, try to run "Run-DMC":


This is xine (X11 gui) - a free video player v0.99.2.
(c) 2000-2004 The xine Team.
libdvdnav: Using dvdnav version 1-rc5 from http://xine.sf.net
libdvdread: Encrypted DVD support unavailable.
libdvdread: Can't stat /dev/dvd
No such file or directory
libdvdnav: vm: faild to open/read the DVD
libdvdnav: Using dvdnav version 1-rc5 from http://xine.sf.net
libdvdread: Encrypted DVD support unavailable.
libdvdread: Can't stat /dev/dvd
No such file or directory
libdvdnav: vm: faild to open/read the DVD

There's no /dev/dvd, so maybe the OS installation process didn't pick up the DVD Writer.

Re:Yes...But...

[Geoffreyerffoeg]

700MHz Celery

He's talking about a computer chip, not a potato chip.

Re:Yes...But...

[neko9]

i watch dvd, divx, xvid movies with xine on my p2 350mhz. no stuttering. works like dream.

Re:Yes...But...

[drinkypoo]

Anything else?

No, that'll about cover it for now.

The reason I want support for a celery 700 is that I have a system I would like to use for a DVD player but that is the maximum CPU it will support. Plus, that's about the line below which windows dvd players won't play properly, or at least they won't respond promptly. Most of the linux DVD players to date have seemed to be horribly inefficient.

Re:Yes...But...

[drinkypoo]

The software comes with the Xbox. The remote dongle is just that, a dongle. It does IR reception (on an RCA protocol) and the player refuses to run without it. There are, of course, hacks to get around this, as the sibling to this comment says.

Re:Yes...But...

[Spoticus]

Did you get this from Fedora or a 3rd party?
Since Fedora won't even support read-only for NTFS or MP3 playback out of the box, what makes you expect they'd _ever_ release anything that'll play encrypted DVD's? For something like that, you'd need to go to someplace like Freshrpms and get the libdvd* packages.

C'mon - this is slashdot - you're _supposed_ to be a nerd and know this shit.

Re:Yes...But...

[Thomas Shaddack]

Two things. First, you need to upgrade your libdvdread to the "illegal" one that supports decrypting. Second, you have to make a symbolic link from your DVD drive device (/dev/scd0 or /dev/hdc or something like that) to /dev/dvd (eg, as a root,
ln -s /dev/scd0 /dev/dvd
so the software would find your DVD drive where it expects it to be by default).

Re:Yes...But...

[Anonymous Coward]

heck yeah, my (*caugh*) friend's xbox is totally modded to hell. 200gig hdd and an Xecutor modchip with EvolutionX.

If console makers were smart, they'd just sell kits to do the modding, because pretty much every step of modding an xbox was pretty touchy, and that's with a solderless chip.

Re:Yes...But...

[Ben Hutchings]

s/most/most important/

Re:Yes...But...

[shaitand]

You actually have to configure the options in the software, just like anything else. Either create a link from your dvdplayer to /dev/dvd or set the option to point at the correct device.

Also you'll want to go to freshrpms and pick up lib's which support encrypted dvd's. Redhat is a primarily us based company and playing encrypted dvd's without paying royalties is illegal in the US due to some pretty fscked up legislation.

Re:Yes...But...

[shaitand]

I can't speak for celeron 700, since they are notorious poor processors, especially for multimedia.

But I can say that using a full blown bloated and current gnome desktop on my athlon 1.4ghz, I can simultaneously play 2 dvd's in pretty much any linux dvdplayer without choppiness or skipping (although it's REALLY interesting to listen to both going at once.)

Even at a lower clockspeed you'd be better off replacing your celeron 700 with a p3 500 socket chip. a p3 500 is orders of magnitude faster than a celeron 700.

Re:Yes...But...

[Anonymous Coward]

The law isn't fscked up, it does exactly what it's supposed to do, put money in the hands of its sponsors. If you don't like it all you have to do is buy yourself a few congressmen.

Re:Yes...But...

[Anonymous Coward]

Apparently, he knows more than you

eh?

[arieswind]

10 F provides a user-friendly and unified look and feel that resembles Windows including: My Computer, My Documents, Windows Network

One wonders how "Windows Network" got onto this distro...

Re:eh?

[JeffTL]

In plain English, that's Samba.

Re:eh?

[MrMr]

I have a /C:\ direcory at my work-pc filled with all these silly folders, especially created for the friendly document-cleanout crew that comes to visit us once a year. You should see their faces if you select the whole contents and backspace...

Re:eh?

[builderbob_nz]

OK I totally get your comment as I can speak techno-babble being a technician and all. But to those people who don't spend their every waking hour around computers, they would understand the term Windows Networking much better than Samba.

I prefer xine but for OEM this is important ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Now a Linux distro that can be preinstalled everywhere is much more desktop ready.

EULA's

[Joe U]

So, which one is it?

ftp://ftp.turbolinux.com/pub/TurboLinux/LICENSE/ LI CENSE
END USER LICENSE AGREEMENT

You should carefully read the following terms and conditions of this end user license agreement ("agreement") before installing any of the software stored on the enclosed cd-roms. By installing any of this software, you (and any entity on whose behalf you are acting) are consenting to be bound by this agreement. If you do not agree to all of the terms and conditions of this agreement, do not install any of the software and return all enclosed cd-roms together with their complete packaging to the place of purchase for a full refund.


http://www.turbolinux.com/about/returns.html
Turbolinux will offer an even exchange for damaged media within 30 days of purchase. We regret that we're unable to accept returns for all other opened software.


So, If I don't agree, I can't use the software AND I can't get my money back. I think I'll go rewrite the EULA myself and agree to my version instead.

Re:EULA's

[LostCluster]

Apparently this is a new level of shrinkwrap licensing where package is no longer complete once you remove the shrinkwrap from the outside of the box... and since the license is on the website you can most clearly access it before making your purchase.

I'm not sure if that holds water or not, but if you're going to challenge them they most clearly already have the lawyers assembled to fight you even though they thought the lawyers were there for a challenge from the MPAA, DVD CCA, and other Hollywood interests...

Re:EULA's

[Anonymous Coward]

Keep scratching the media and requesting a replacement.

Eventually, they will give up and give you a refund.

Re:EULA's

[LostCluster]

I don't think the grandparent poster would actually want a refund...

The much more interesting case is where somebody informs the publisher that they do not accept the agreement, but are unable to return the software despite speaking to the manager of the store at which the software was aquired. Therefore, he is in possession of the software without having agreed to the license... now what?

Of course, copyright law would still apply and that'd shut down any copying of the software. Still, reverse enginering could be done, but then again the DMCA would stand in the way of publishing anything relating to CSS.

Hey, wait a second... just what is the point of an EULA anywhere?

Re:EULA's

[nametaken]

Maybe I'm missing something, or I read this wrong. But what I get from this is, if you purchased a copy you would be required to read the EULA before you open the envelopes with the CDs (like MS soft). If you disagree, don't open the cd envelope, and take it back for a refund. If you agreed, opened it, and the media is damaged... take it back within 30 days.

Re:EULA's

[Anonymous Coward]

I read it more as if you open the box, not the envelope.

Of course, it's deliberately vague.

(I say deliberately vague because they took the time to have a lawyer write the EULA to make it as specific as possible, and then they left something in that would obviously cause confusion)

Re:EULA's

[Atmchicago]

Mod parent up. I have no clue how grandparent got +5, there are no inherent contradictions. The first one says that you have to agree with the EULA to use the software, or else you have to return it. The second one says if you get a damaged cd you can get a refund, but if you open it and it isn't damaged, you can't return it.

The conclusion is, be aware of the EULA before you open up the software, or else take a hammer to your cd if you are displeased.

Nothing new here, move along...

Re:EULA's

[Joe U]

Actually, I had to go searching for the first EULA. There were no obvious links to it on the site.

I had to take the time to go to the FTP server and look for it. However, the no-refund policy was located in several obvious locations.

I'm guessing the first time you will see the EULA is after you open the box, and according to them, have given away your right to return the software.

Re:EULA's

[Anonymous Coward]

EULAs are bullshit. There's no provision in law whereby a vendor can tell you what to do and not to do with your own product once you've bought it. Remember, copyright laws cover distribution (copying, duh), not usage.

KDE 3.1.2 Among others...?

[bogaboga]

That's KDE 3.1.2? Did I read right? If so, it's not worth a bother. TurboLinux grabs the 2.6 series kernel and then uses the old KDE? Where have these people been?

Re:KDE 3.1.2 Among others...?

[Anonymous Coward]

KDE 3.2 has not been localized for Japanese yet, and that's where 75% of their customers are based.

Re:KDE 3.1.2 Among others...?

[Technonotice_Dom]

And it might just be me but I get less impressed by KDE 3.2 every day... I still use it on my main machine but I'm slowly moving over to Gnome 2.6 which seems more stable and has a lot more thought put into it's UI.

Re:KDE 3.1.2 Among others...?

[shaitand]

Using kde 3.2 there is a severe memory leak. I have a gig of ram in my machine, normally I'm using less than 256mb and there doesn't even begin to be a need for swapping.

After an hour of working in kde I can close everything out and all my physical memory is in use as well as some swapping going on.

Commercial DVD software comes to Linux...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's been here for a while...

http://www.linspire.com/lindows_products_details .p hp?id=11804

Lindows has offered a legal player for sale on
Their OS for some time now

Good and bad news

[teutonic_leech]

Well, judging from the first few comments, this is a good thing and a bad thing. A good thing because a commercial company is bothering to support Linux in the first place - forget about the quality of the player (e.g. lack of DeCSS, etc.) but focus on the statement this makes. But it's of course a bad thing as well because this might be the beginning of a trend of having commercial software being stuffed down our throats with each distro. But you know guys - you can't have it both ways: Either Linux remains a 'geek OS' or we'll have to deal with the Macromedia's and RealPlayer's of this world. Always be careful what you wish for ;-)

Re:Good and bad news

[latroM]

But it's of course a bad thing as well because this might be the beginning of a trend of having commercial software being stuffed down our throats with each distro.

There is nothing bad with good free software developed for money. Many companies code free software for profit, like specific features for a client. If you are meaning non-free, proprietary software then say it.

Re:Good and bad news

[blackmonday]

The wording of your post made me think that this player doesn't support encrypted (commercial) DVD's. It does. You can pop in any DVD and watch it in Linux with this player.

Linux is turning the tide into the mainstream, and this is a big milestone. For those lamenting that this is a double edged sword, it's not. People who want to compy with the DMCA 100% have a player to buy, those that don't care (me), continue living happily. Hey, that's the way it should be.

Re:Good and bad news

[Azureflare]

Last time I checked, Flash and realplayer didn't cost any money.... But I know what you mean, it's not free as in speech. (Don't forget the Helix community, they've got a very nice alternative to realplayer going).

BTW you probably will be able to get linux from major distros that comes without commercial software. Mandrake has a normal version, and also a Powerpack version (and others as well), and the main difference is that the powerpack comes with commercial software, and the normal version doesn't. If you don't want the commercial software, then buy the normal one (or download the free download edition).

I'm not sure how other distros handle this, because I've never used another distro. Yeah, I know, I'm not an official geek unless I've tried at least 5 distros... But I got mandrake working, ok? I don't have much free time. If it's not broken, don't fix it, right?

At any rate, I don't think that we will lose the possibility of having a geek OS; we'll just have choices for what type of linux we want.

That's what's so great about linux, IMO. You can pay more to get an easy to use linux, or pay less if you don't have much money and can figure it out, or like to have the challenge.

Re:Good and bad news

[TheRaven64]

If it's not broken, don't fix it, right?

Yup. definitely not a real geek...

Re:Good and bad news

[Combuchan]

The real geek corollary to "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" is "if it ain't broke, fix it till it is".

Re:Good and bad news

[zbrimhall]

I personally prefer "if it ain't broke, what fun is it?"

Re:Good and bad news

[clymere]

actually, i think thats great. reading stories about how Linux users all try a half dozen different versions before they get one working how they want probably puts off new users. the fact that you stuck with the first one you tried says a lot about mandrake, and how far linux has come.

Re:Good and bad news

[CanadianCrackPot]

Quite frankly I think some parts of Linux need more documentation that is easier to read. I've had several problems (non major) that I ended up going through Windows problem solving methods to fix because I had no sweet clue in hell what to look for.

For the uneducated masses that is

• clean out the configuration files
• uninstall the unruly software and reinstall
• get fed up when it becomes a major problem and reinstall the os (or in the case of linux upgrade to the latest and greatest distro.

While I love Linux I don't want to spend hours unpon hours sorting through something obscure to fix a problem that I may have made. Microsoft put me off of that from going through obscure things to fix problems I DIDN'T make...

Re:Good and bad news

[juhaz]

But it's of course a bad thing as well because this might be the beginning of a trend of having commercial software being stuffed down our throats with each distro.

You talk like this is a first time distro comes bundled with commercial software. Crawl out of the barrel, lots of shrinkwrapped distros have always contained some commercial software, but it's not "stuffed down our throats" and is just stripped out of the free ISOs.

s/it's/its/ [nt]

[Anonymous Coward]

[nt] = [no text]

Great.

[Anonymous Coward]

I prefer Mplayer, since it's free and allready supports all the stuff I want, plus I get to see the source of it, or at least know that the source has been availible to a thousand examining eyes, so to speak, and no one has raised the alarm. Now with this, you can't be sure, can you. I mean, they'd have no reason to do anything bad, but still... What about DRM? They can't release something like this and make it ignore DRM, can they? Or skip the FBI notice?

However, even though I won't use it, I think it's still a good thing. Stuff like this makes things easier for people who can't install mplayer on their own, and it raises the 'legitimity' of the penguin with those people too, 'cause they might be slightly put off by having to install decss-based stuff that some 'hacker' (their understanding of the word) put together and got sued over... Even though he won...

Re:Great.

[DaHat]

or at least know that the source has been availible to a thousand examining eyes, so to speak, and no one has raised the alarm.

Oh come on, that's a pretty specious argument. Just because the source is available to examining eyes does not mean people have availed themselves to it and have ensured line for line security.

Your comment is not unlike saying "Microsoft software is inherently more secure then open source software because no one is able to read its code and find bugs in it."

Turbolinux.....

[LittleLebowskiUrbanA]

Hmmm....new distro?

Re:Turbolinux.....

[Prod_Deity]

Turbolinux is possibly the biggest distro in Asia. Think of it as our (old) Red Hat.

Re:Turbolinux.....

[CableModemSniper]

Turbolinux has been around for a whiiiiile. According to their website since '92.

Re:Turbolinux.....

[lithron]

No, Turbolinux is not a new distro. Its been around for a few years. I purchased a copy from LSL at least three years ago.

If you would have done some simple Google searches (searching for "turbolinux" for example) you would have found this page that explains the company was founded in 1992.

Re:Turbolinux.....

[LittleLebowskiUrbanA]

Mean that as a joke. Good tactic of theirs t come back in to the market like this,

Re:Turbolinux.....

[geminidomino]

No, they've been around for awhile. Never got really big over here, tho. I kind of pegged them as a SuSE type, since they used to give out a crippled version of their Linux with Linksys (I think) ethernet cards.

Could DeCSS become legal?

[tmk]

AFAIK a DVD player software becomes legal by paying royalties to the DVD forum. Could a DeCSS be part of an legal DVD player?

I would prefer a legal solution which can be used with mplayer, kaffeine or xine.

Re:Could DeCSS become legal?

[Firethorn]

DeCSS was basically a reverse engineered copy of the decryption portion of a dvd player, not to mention using a key.

To join the group, besides paying $$$, you have to agree to all sorts of rules about player operation like listening to the force play flag, macrovision, and region coding. Oh, and not disclosing some of the specifications (they're a trade secret).

Re:Could DeCSS become legal?

[TheRaven64]

I wondered about this a few years ago. Would it be possible/legal to set up a company as a DVD licensee, then only distribute the specification to your employees under NDA, but allow anyone to become an employee?

Re:Could DeCSS become legal?

[Anonymous Coward]

And where is it stated that they must accept roytalty payments?

If it was a simple matter of sending a check to a company, industry group, or association, this would have been a nonissue years ago. DeCSS wouldn't even have been necessary.

Until someone shows me the address, where to send the check, and the accompanying receipt, this is not true.

The DVD Forum does not have a product it wants to sell to end users. Unless your check has a lot of zeros in front of the decimal and the leftmost significant number, they don't have to grant anything.

Re:Could DeCSS become legal?

[mrchaotica]

Only if you want to be sued into oblivion by the DVD forum, or move to a country where they can't get you.

A non-free piece of software for GNU/Linux on x86

[latroM]

No news. MPlayer works well and is also Free. The article should mention clearly that this is only for x86 and non-free. Open Source/Free Software can be also commercial. Think about Redhat. This is more advertisement than an article.

BFD folks

[Bohemoth2]

There is no mention of a linux version on thier website, nor is there a linux version available for purchase in thier webstore. Nothing to see here, move along please.

Ask and you shall receive?

[goldspider]

A few weeks ago, the head of the (evil, of course) MPAA learned that there was no legal way for Linux users to watch movies on their computers. Now we have one.

So are Slashdotters going to thank the MPAA for addressing one of the Linux community's concerns? Nope, they're going to piss and moan about what's wrong with this particular piece of software.

I'd submit that this is a big reason why software companies don't want to embrace the Linux market. No matter how good the software they produce is, Linux users aren't going to be happy unless it's free (speech) and free (beer).

Re:Ask and you shall receive?

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, thank you great god MPAA, for deigning to place the foot of your bribed politicians on our necks and step down hard, and then allow us to pay to have them let up on the pressure a little. A person not paying much attention (aka goldspider) might almost think we still had a free country.

Re:Ask and you shall receive?

[LordArathres]

Thats not true at all. I went out and bought both Neverwinter Nights and Unreal Tournament 2004 when they came out specifically becuase they came with a Linux Binary. I emailed the Vice President of ? the company that made UT2004 and he actually replied and said that although Linux sales are miniscule, the only way to judge them is by the sort of email I sent him.

Go out and buy the software, email the company that made it and everyone wins. I didnt care that the source was released for either game, I was happy with the fact that I could play them on my Linux box.

I like Xine but if PowerDVD comes out for general Distros and its good, (free preview), I will probably buy it. I bought the Boxed set 10+ from Mandrake even though I downloaded the Distro earlier just to show my support.

The only way to show support for companies that make Linux based products is to BUY them.

Later all.

lordarathres@gmail.com

Re:Ask and you shall receive?

[aardvarkjoe]

Linux users aren't going to be happy unless it's free (speech) and free (beer).

You underestimate us. We'll still complain about it being a ripoff of commercial software, whine about the GUI toolkit used, complain about how bloated and slow the software is, insinuate that it's a tricky ploy to gather personal information, demand that the company provide free phone support, and then run off and create a dozen sourceforge projects to "clone" the program.

Re:Ask and you shall receive?

[Anonymous Coward]

> A few weeks ago, the head of the (evil, of course) MPAA learned that there was no legal way for Linux users to watch movies on their computers. Now we have one.
> So are Slashdotters going to thank the MPAA for addressing one of the Linux community's concerns? Nope, they're going to piss and moan about what's wrong with this particular piece of software.

Wow, quite the leap in logic there. Care to point out the link/article where the head of the MPAA caused that particular Linux player to be made available? Last I read in TFArticle, it was a Cyberlink DVD player, and the MPAA had nothing to do with that at all. Cyberlink bought a license, Cyberlink released a product - just like any other company can do. No special MPAA involvement at all.

Re:Ask and you shall receive?

[ameoba]

Meh. $70 is a big jump from "free with any hardware that's remotely capable of playing DVDs"...

Re:Ask and you shall receive?

[Anonymous Coward]

The source for the player can't be released because I must contain a special "player key" for decrambling the CSS-stream, which have to be kept secret.

As a student, I am not able to afford $69 for a DVD-Player. The past 10 years with Linux were a great relief, no more worrying about illegal copies, about where to get a software that does what I want and I can afford.

I also dont - and never will - bow to the MPAA or any european equivalent; I will continue to choose my software for whatever I like to do and I greatly enjoy the freedom that comes with this.

I respect the ownership of movies and music, but I don't see any reason - even whatever the law is, or will be - why I should not rip my CDs and movies into a format I like or can carry around, because I don't do anyone any harm.

My education (with ancient latin and greek original literature) taught me not to obey to stupid laws, that only have one purpose: to protect the big ones.
You are on the world to take your responsibility where we head.

Re:Ask and you shall receive?

[nwbvt]

Well I don't think the MPAA deserves thanks, Cyberlink does if anyone. The MPAA does not control every company within their industry. They shouldn't be blamed for nor should they recieve credit for Cyberlink's business practices.

And I'm not complaining that its not open source, I'm complaining that I apparently can't purchase their product. I need to install a completely new OS to get it. I wouldn't mind buying PowerDVD for a reasonable price (or having it come with the DVD drive I'm probably going to be purchasing soon) like Windows users do.

Re:Ask and you shall receive?

[dont_think_twice]

Two things you will never hear a company executive say:

1. Well, we could make a ton of money if we sold programX for linux, but the people on slashdot will complain, so lets not bother.

2. Well, there is no way we can make money by selling programX for linux, but the people on slashdot will be happy, so lets go ahead and do it

Software companies will embrace the market when it is in their financial interests to do so. That is what companies do. No amount of complaining either way by gnu/linux users is going to change that.

Now, a question: how many people have actually bought DVD software for Windows? I would guess approximately 10. For everyone else, it came bundled with either a computer, or a DVD drive they bought. There fact that there is a commercial DVD player for gnu/linux now is great news for those who want to sell gnu/linux computers. Now they can just bundle the PowerDVD, pay the company that makes it 5 bucks, and not have to worrry about making sure mplayer or xine is properly set up to play DVD's (which can be a pain).

Re:Ask and you shall receive?

[WindBourne]

I'd submit that this is a big reason why software companies don't want to embrace the Linux market.

Sigh:

• DataBases
  • DB2
  • Oracle
  • Sybase
  • In fact all DB's except for sql server.
• ERP:
  • SAP
  • Peoplesoft
  • Just about everybody of consequence except those that is trying to sell itself to MS.
• General Office Applications: Many are being re-written into java so that they will work on all platforms. These have gone to Java to be able to support Linux, Mac, *nix, etc.
• Office clones: Many have been ported to Linux with the notable exception of MS, Lotus (IBM's stuff which I think that they will allow to simply die), and Corel (who is in the process of port again).
• Games? A small number are starting to support linux. I think that this will grow over the next year or two.

Too be honest, there is more commercial software for Linux than many people realize. Perhaps the two area that Linux has not made inroads yet, are home and specialized. That is changing.

Re:Ask and you shall receive?

[ElGuapoGolf]

Great.

Show me a link where I can buy the software and use it with SuSE. I don't want to go buy turbolinux... just the software please... Oddly enough, I only see a windows version available on their page.

Oh wait. You can't do that. So yeah, I'm not going to run out and embrace them. I know, silly isn't it... I just want to buy the software, not a bundle of stuff I don't need.

Re:Ask and you shall receive?

[cowbutt]

I didnt care that the source was released for either game, I was happy with the fact that I could play them on my Linux box.

Despite being the Free software bigot that I am, I'm not all that bothered about having the source to games at release time; most of the interesting stuff is in the content these days (reflected by where the development time and effort goes, too).

I think, though, that it is good citizenship to release the source eventually though; firstly so that people can learn from it, secondly - and more importantly IMHO - so that the game can be maintained relative to future OS revisions. I've a number of DOS games that I simply cannot play (properly) any longer because my hardware doesn't have DOS drivers and they don't run under W9x/WXP nor any of the ways of getting DOS programs to run under Linux. :(

iD and Interplay/Outrage/Volition have been good sports in this regard.

--

Re:Ask and you shall receive?

[isorox]

It's not that, I use plenty of commercial software because it's good, however I use plenty of open source software because that's also good. It's free and fair competition.

With DVDs though, I dont get that choice, because somebody decided that xine (which I prefer to powerdvd) is illegal. You see, I like playing some of my not inconsiderable library of ~120 DVD's, all of which I legally purchased, on my laptop on the train.

However the only way I can do this is with this new product. Trouble is, I dont like the interface. I dont get to buy another product, or even write my own, as that's illegal.

This is my concern, the MPAA haven't addressed this.

(To be honest I'm not happy until I can skip the "20th century fox" thing at the start of the disk, easilly done on my cyberhome DVD payer, but not on cyberhome)

Re:Ask and you shall receive?

[dvdeug]

So are Slashdotters going to thank the MPAA for addressing one of the Linux community's concerns?

I have perfectly good DVD playing software. The problem is the MPAA will harass distributers. I don't need "legal" proprietary DVD playing software; I need the MPAA to leave my current software alone. This doesn't address my needs at all.

Re:Ask and you shall receive?

[Anonymous Coward]

A few weeks ago, the head of the (evil, of course) MPAA learned that there was no legal way for Linux users to watch movies on their computers. Now we have one. So are Slashdotters going to thank the MPAA for addressing one of the Linux community's concerns? Nope, they're going to piss and moan about what's wrong with this particular piece of software.

Oh the hypocrisy! We're all such losers with no perspective. Thanks for being the conscience of the whole OSS movement.

Re:Ask and you shall receive?

[Anonymous Coward]

Am I missing something here? Is there a link that says the MPAA had anything to do with Cyberlink porting this software?

Sorry if I didn't catch it, but I'm not going to rush out for a thank you card just yet.

Re:Ask and you shall receive?

[clymere]

with Cedega(formerly WineX) you can play a HUGE asortment of Direct-X based games.

Honestly, there are hundreds of supported games listed on their sites, and gamers i've spoken with say they do in fact work very, very well.

Re:Ask and you shall receive?

[dismentor]

Does this work on PowerPC? On *BSD? On The HURD (well, admittedly, not much works on The Hurd ;)? Was that the issue at hand? Well, no, it wasn't really the issue at hand; the issue was that the MPAA and their lobbyists have created an artificial restrictions on how one uses his lawfully obtained copyright work.

When copyright was founded in the USA, congress decided that they could only restrict the public performance and public copying of a work; once a person had a copy, he could do whatever he liked with it as long as he didn't pass on a copy (ie. he could still sell on the original). They felt that further restrictions in law were infringing on rights. That is the issue here.

I don't want a DVD player for Linux; I have one of those now. I can watch DVDs (which I bought and own) in plenty of legal and illegal ways on and off Linux. What I want is the law to stop infringing on my rights to protect the corporate (who have no inherent human standing) interests of America.

Re:Ask and you shall receive?

[Anonymous Coward]

Software companies will embrace the market when it is in their financial interests to do so. That is what companies do. No amount of complaining either way by gnu/linux users is going to change that.

Because gnu/linux users have $0, and make up 0% of the market, right?

Re:Ask and you shall receive?

[WindBourne]

with Cedega(formerly WineX) you can play a HUGE asortment of Direct-X based games.

Problem is, that is a retro-fit. These games were not designed for Linux. But many are coming

Re:Ask and you shall receive?

[Alsee]

The fact that there was no commercial DVD player avilable for Linux WAS NOT THE PROBLEM. It was merely a blatant symptom. A symptom so blatant that it actually left that idiot Valenci from the MPAA standing there bubbering like an idiot.

The problem is the DMCA which imprisons innocent and non-infringing people for playing a DVD or distributing software to play DVDs.

The solution is the DMCRA. The DMCRA leaves copyright infringement illegal, it only prevents innocent and non-infringing people from going to prison.

-

New tool from DVD-Jon

[Anonymous Coward]

DVD Jon releases FairKeys

Jon "DVD Jon" Johansen has released FairKeys, a program for extracting your iTunes DRM FairPlay keys from Apple's servers.

This is rather cool. You're no longer restricted to getting your keys from an already authorized Windows iTunes or iPod. Now you can authorize any computer, and there is no limit to the amount of authorizations (since the keys don't get deleted when you deauthorize).

Re:New tool from DVD-Jon

[Anonymous Coward]

That guy is an idiot. Apple's DRM is a good as it will get before the music recording companies pull the plug on legal online purchases. He is doing a diservice. Why is he a hero for the slashdot crowd? He doesn't even use Linux, he's a member of warez group, he runs a pirated copy of Windows XP and has never cared about open source at all.

Re:New tool from DVD-Jon

[Anonymous Coward]

> He doesn't even use Linux, he's a member of warez group, he runs a pirated copy of Windows XP and has never cared about open source at all.

Coming from an Anonymous Coward and Apple zealot, it must be true!

I wonder how he managed to develop DeDRMS with MonoDevelop when MonoDevelop doesn't run on Windows.

Re:New tool from DVD-Jon

[Anonymous Coward]

You really should see a shrink about your envy. It's not healthy.

Re:A non-free piece of software for GNU/Linux on x

[Anonymous Coward]

Think about RH? Sure, what are they doing now??

Leaving the home market.

DVD player, is that for the home market?

Yes.

RH FAILED.

good news

[kguilber]

Am I the only one that thinks this is good news? Legally playing DVDs is a key feature that will help Linux distros in the Desktop market. Lindows/Linspire does have this already, but personally I prefer a distribution that doesn't think it's Windows. I, for one, hope others start follow suit and include licensed DVD software. Even better if CyberLink releases PowerDVD for Linux to the public.

Re:good news

[boudie]

Yes, apparently you are the only one. If anyone asks, I tell them my dog ate my license.

Commercial? Try Proprietary!

[bYTEREALm]

Ehh? PowerDVD is a *Proprietary* product. Commercial only means they make theyre living on it. MySQL for instance is a commercial free software / opensource product. I'm never going to use PowerDVD, so i guess that makes me a criminal. Well BLOW ME!

Re:A non-free piece of software for GNU/Linux on x

[latroM]

That is not the point. I meant that commercial companies can produce Free code for money.

Commercial Linux Software

[Bruha]

You people who are whining that you actually have to pay for something need to get off your high horses. If you ever want to see anything supported in Linux in some fashion you need to pay for it.

It's this same stigma that causes companies to not build software for Linux because they think Linux users dont want to pay for anything.

If you really think it's such a bad thing to have to pay for a commercial dvd player. Think if you pay for it and Linux becomes very popular that you will see a free version shipped on the dvd's themselves so you can watch it on Linux. This is how it is for Windows. Most dvd's you buy come with free player software.

Re:Commercial Linux Software

[Anonymous Coward]

I've never seen that.

Most DVD's I've seen come with a silly skinable front end to DVD software called "InterActual." It DOES NOT play DVD's unless you already have another 'commercial' DVD player on your computer. (Much like Windows Media Player, and much like mplayer and xine rely on deCSS.)

I've never seen a 'Hollywood' DVD that you could play on your computer without first buying a DVD player. The actual decoders are NOT built-in.

However, having said that...Every DVD 'DRIVE' I've purchased has come with this software. (Sometimes WinDVD, sometimes PowerDVD.) Perhaps they'll start bundling Linux PowerDVD with drives now, so you can get your 'free-beer' copy when you buy your DVD-ROM drive. (They could slap on it the same CD.)

Re:Commercial Linux Software

[sloanster]

If you really think it's such a bad thing to have to pay for a commercial dvd player.

No, you're totally missing the point here. All the linux users I know can and do pay, gladly, for good stuff. What we aren't eager to is to pay for a closed source program that's not as good as the open source ones we already have...

I haven't seen this DVD software yet, and I'll reserve judgment about it until I see it in action - but, as I'd have to switch to turbo linux in order to use it, the chances are slim that I'll see it in action any time soon.

Re:Commercial Linux Software

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh yeah, that's what I've been pining for all these years: to be able to use closed software with stupid EULAs on Linux. Not.

I don't give a shit if companies support Linux or not. If it ain't Free, it ain't worth it.

Re:Commercial Linux Software

[dvdeug]

You people who are whining that you actually have to pay for something need to get off your high horses. If you ever want to see anything supported in Linux in some fashion you need to pay for it.

But there are many things supported in Linux right now that I don't need to pay for. I've got much better support from Debian than I've got with several commerical software providers.

Re:Commercial Linux Software

[mrchaotica]

I don't complain about paying for software for Linux, if a free program is inadequate, and I can't do without.

However, what I do complain about it is being legally barred from using the free alternative, or creating my own -- the CSS patent and/or DMCA are morally wrong, and violate the entire spirit of "intellectual property."

Patents (and copyrights) were originally intended to encourage innovation, not just give the creator a monopoly. At this point, CSS stifles innovation, so there's no reason it should continue to enjoy it's privilaged status.

Re:Commercial Linux Software

[DMUTPeregrine]

Well, the windows version of PowerDVD is very good. If they release it for other Linuxes I'll buy a copy, it's worth it.

Re:Commercial Linux Software

[ignavus]

I also object to paying for something merely because it is hiding behind unnecessarily protected knowledge. This is an entrance fee, not a reward for innovation.

The FOSS world IS capable of producing free DVD players without copying commercial code. But artifical restrictions are preventing or limiting this.

I will pay for cool programs that the company deserves to be paid for. I paid for VMWare, because I think they did some cool stuff, and earned my fee. I don't want to be shunted back to the "pay at the barrier" tariff approach to software that Microsoft and its ilk want to maintain.

Too much commercial software is based on milking users through restrictive trade practices sanctioned by a pro-business, anti-consumer government. It is corporate welfare. And it is NOT sound economics. The growing corporate stranglehold on knowledge may well condemn the world to a regime of mediocrity.

Do I have to buy TurboLinux?

[nwbvt]

Can I just get the DVD software from CyberLink? I can't find a thing on their site on Linux PowerDVD. I don't really want a new OS, though I wouldn't mind having the legal DVD player.

Re:Do I have to buy TurboLinux?

[drinkypoo]

If Linux PowerDVD is anywhere near as good as Windows PowerDVD, it will be well worth paying for that stupid dist if you can find a way to get the software out of it, and into a dist of your choice. Perhaps it would be enough to ldd the binary, copy everything it depends upon to a tree on your system, and run it by chroot'ing. PowerDVD is by far the best DVD player for Windows, although version 5 has an "issue" where it stops playing audio through the SPDIF (I have an nforce2 board with the MCP (though, unfortunately, not the MCP-T) and I use digital output. It's nice to have the AC3 stream passed to my stereo (I have a sony 5.1 receiver attached to my PC) but I had to go back to version 4 because of their bug. however, PowerDVD 4 has all the same features except for some new scaling engine which consumes vast amounts of CPU, and which I don't use anyway because I let my GF4Ti4200 do the scaling.

Re:Do I have to buy TurboLinux?

[evilmonkey_666]

PowerDVD is by far the best DVD player for Windows

I disagree. The best DVD player for Windows (and Linux) is VLC

It supports menus, surround sound (even DTS) and AFAIK all the other things PowerDVD does. But on top of that it is region free and allows you to skip the commercials and copyright warnings that PowerDVD forces you to watch :)

It's also free as in beer and speech.

Re:Do I have to buy TurboLinux?

[amokk]

VLC would be a pretty good DVD player if it could actually play DVDs. In my experience, it can't. If a DVD has menus, it'll hang for 1-2 MINUTES before just crashing.

Re:Do I have to buy TurboLinux?

[Nermal6693]

It works on my system (OS X) with no trouble. There's an option called "Use DVD Menus" that you can disable, which might help.

Re:Do I have to buy TurboLinux?

[TrancePhreak]

I'm going to take a stab in the dark here and suggest that VLC is not a legal DVD player like PowerDVD.

Re:Do I have to buy TurboLinux?

[Kethinov]

Which matters why? It isn't stopping me from using it.

If writing an emulator to play console games on a PC is legal and writing a third party server daemon and hacking the encryption to play Ultima Online on non commercial servers is legal, then why should playing a DVD on a third party implementation be illegal?

I'll save you the effort, it shouldn't be both by legal precedent and common sense. If some retarded organization wants to sue me for playing DVDs with OSS then I'll see the morons in court.

Re:Do I have to buy TurboLinux?

[TrancePhreak]

You'll see them and lose, I believe (If in America). You see, we have this thing called the DMCA. Can you provide legal evidence that hacking UO for non commercial servers was proved legal in court? Emulators are legal, but the content you play in them may not be. Emulators being legal doesn't make commerical ROMs legal.

Re:Do I have to buy TurboLinux?

[evilmonkey_666]

They ironed out those bugs long ago.

I just tested the latest version with the T2 DVD (Very complicated menu structure) and it worked fine.

Not for PowerDVD

[tmk]

Its 69 dollar for Turbolinux not for PowerDVD.

It is like Acrobat Reader or Realplayer for Linux.

Can We Buy The Player Only?

[futuresheep]

Is there a standalone version of the player available or do I have to buy the whole distro for $70.00? If there's no standalone player, than this is as useless as having no 'legal' player available in the first place.

PowerDVD stinks

[JavaPunk]

A few months ago I bought a dvd+-rw drive which was the first DVD reader on my computer. So I install PowerDVD in windows plop in Pirates of the Caribbean and get a, "You have the wrong region set. Would you like to change you region?" I say yes and it changes nothing! I can't play a DVD on windows because of this stupid software. On the other hand, I boot into gentoo do an 'emerge mplayer.' And Pirates runs perfect! So do I really want crappy software with such a nonstandard interface on linux for a large sum of money? No way! Mplayer rules for me!

Re:PowerDVD stinks

[Marc_Hawke]

Get a region unlocker. All the popular windows DVD players have been cracked. You just download a patch and POOF, your windows machine is a region-free player.

I would point you at a link, but that's probably illegal, I'm sure you can find one without much trouble.

Re:PowerDVD stinks

[eatjello]

Or how about selecting a region on your drive? Windows enforces firmware limitations on regionalizing DVD drives, meaning it sets one initially (usually by coutry it is sold in), and you can only change it five times (ever... the hardware, not software, tracks it). Just go to Device Manager, then select properties for your DVD drive. The DVD region tab will tell you everything you need to know. PowerDVD should work fine at this point. The real issue with PowerDVD on Linux is it is not available for gentoo, LFS, mandrake, etc... and I refuse to abandon my gentoo goodness for any commercial software.

anyone else have trouble viewing their site?

[Chiisu]

Running Mozilla 1.7; I get a blank screen....

Re:anyone else have trouble viewing their site?

[Anonymous Coward]

Works fine on FireFox 0.9.7

Re:anyone else have trouble viewing their site?

[BashDot]

Yes, we like to call that the slashdot effect around here.

I bought my DVDs, they weren't free

[Morgaine]

Linux users aren't going to be happy unless it's free (speech) and free (beer).

You're making no sense. Linux users don't want everything free, they just don't want to pay twice over.

I bought my DVDs, with hard-earned cash, and they most definitely weren't free. I'll be blowed if I'm going to pay again, just to be "allowed" to play them on my own computer.

Re:I bought my DVDs, they weren't free

[black mariah]

Look, fucking idiot, do you also bitch that you had to buy a VCR to watch video tapes? You're making lameass excuses, just like every other whiny bitch on this fucking website. This is why nobody gives a fuck about Linux, and nobody ever will outside of a server setting. You can not make money on Linux software, because the dipshits that run it would rather use a half-baked shitty implementation of software than pay money for something that actually works.

Re:I bought my DVDs, they weren't free

[iamacat]

do you also bitch that you had to buy a VCR to watch video tapes

Definitely yes, if I already have ability to compile my own VCR using free instructions on Internet and some a*holes tell me it's illegal and I have to pay money for the one they approve. And don't tell me I have to reactivate the VCR if I want to use it with a new TV.

Re:I bought my DVDs, they weren't free

[Morgaine]

... do you also bitch that you had to buy a VCR to watch video tapes?

Again you're making no sense, because the physical counterpart to the VCR is the computer, and Linux users don't complain about having to buy their computers.

You can not make money on Linux software ...

Sure you can. Create something new that isn't already provided free, and people who need that functionality will buy it. (If they don't buy it then they really didn't need it, or the price was much too high.)

The trouble with the moaners like you is that you don't produce anything novel enough to be worth buying.

Re:I bought my DVDs, they weren't free

[aristotle-dude]

Did you play for that set top dvd player you are using in your living room? Did you pay for your computer or did you get it for free because you bought some software?

DVD set top player manufacturers play fees to licence holders for things like DVD decryption, Dolby and DTS decoding, Mpeg2 decoding etc...

You are not going to pay twice over, you only pay once per device that you want to watch DVDs on. Paying that license is like buying a virtual DVD set top box player for your computer. Get it yet? Your "DVD-ROM" drive does not entitle you to play DVD "VIDEO".

Re:I bought my DVDs, they weren't free

[mrchaotica]

Your "DVD-ROM" drive does not entitle you to play DVD "VIDEO".

What about the copy of PowerDVD (for windows) that came with it?

Re:I bought my DVDs, they weren't free

[vanDerGraaf]

MOD PARENT UP!!!

This is exactly the point. You have already paid the licensing fee when you receive the Win version of the software. You should not have to pay again to use another OS.

Re:I bought my DVDs, they weren't free

[Anonymous Coward]

Speak for yourself. I'm a Linux user and I certainly do want everything free. Both as in beer and as in speech (as if that phrase ever made any sense).

I don't pay for my DVDs. I download them and burn them onto discs that I take from the office. Why should I pay for any of this when it's all available for free? Only suckers like you pay for their entertainment. The rest of us can live at your expense and laugh at you.

Re:I bought my DVDs, they weren't free

[Anonymous Coward]

You are the biggest shit head I've seen on the Internet in a long time.. And I've played Counter-Strike on public servers!

Re:A non-free piece of software for GNU/Linux on x

[DAldredge]

Redhat is turning a profit and has 750,000,000 - 900,000,000 USD in the bank in cash.

Redhat is dying like BSD is dying.

# of useful proprietary apps on Linux: still zero

[stealth.c]

I've used PowerDVD on Windows. I hate its interface, it is feature-impaired, and unstable. With Xine + libdvd*, I have SO MANY MORE FUNCTIONS. I can take screenshots of a movie without getting just a black screen; I can navigate the film in any direction and speed, and I can use key commands for just about all of that. It's faster, too, and far easier to acquire. Sorry CyberLink. This is far too little; way too late. I wouldn't condone purchasing a commercial DVD player anyway.

They're trying to show support for Linux, but for some reason I still see them and most other proprietary software vendors as ignorant, crapware-distributing bastards. We don't want/need anything from people like CyberLink. They are wasting their time on a product that WILL fail--and probably make the "Linux market" look non-existant.

Perhaps the most important thing is that DVD drives that come with PowerDVD will probably have the Windows AND Linux version. In such a case, it looks to me like another baby step in getting the support of hardware manufacturers.

Folks...this is GOOD NEWS.

[MsGeek]

This is something that I have been waiting for for a long time. A software DVD player that "Just Works" on Linux? Bring it on, man! This is the reason why I am sort of, kind of, considering Linspire as a way to get Debian-based Linux on a machine or two of mine. You still cannot download a trial version from the Cyberlink site, which is an oversight at best and really nasty of Cyberlink at worst.

I would take Linspire over Turbolinux because Turbo is an RPM-based distro, and Linspire is Debian under the hood and can be updated to Debian Testing/Unstable with a few apt-get commands. Here's the how-to: http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=7165

Re:Folks...this is GOOD NEWS.

[Anonymous Coward]

Apt works for RPM as well.

If [nt] means [no text], why did you write text?

[Anonymous Coward]

Old News

[danda]

PowerDVD was first announced on Linux in 2000. See this article in the Register:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2000/08/18/dvd_play ba ck_on_linux_just/

To my knowledge, they have never released it for end-users to buy/download.

However, in 2001 I purchased a ThinkPad T22 from IBM pre-loaded with Linux and it had PowerDVD installed. The software required some funky thinkpad driver to be installed or it could not playback. I long ago dumped that distribution (caldera) and now Xine/mplayer et al run just fine on the same thinkpad without any special drivers.

Does it also phone home?

[Anonymous Coward]

Like the Windows version that I have does?

link

[calibanDNS]

The Linspire DVD Player seems to have been around since at least LinSpire 4.5 (does anyone know how old 4.5 is?). Looks like it's based on Xine.

No spell/grammar check?

[Douglas Simmons]

of it's Linux distribution

What Turbolinux needs to do for its next release is lay off a bit on the turbo factor and work on implementing into its browser a very simple Slashdot submissions grammar checker for people who just can't seem to handle the whole its/it's thing. Maybe in future versions they could add a checker for correct your/you're and there/their usage, but that might slow down the turboness...

For Christ sake, can't you editors change a stupid error like this in a submission? Put a disclaimer in the submission page if you have to, "We may modify your post to tidy up any utter stupidity that you all usually display."

Re:No spell/grammar check?

[Anonymous Coward]

don't forget the #1 slashdot stupidity ..

Don't loose that ...

lose/loose

Re:No spell/grammar check?

[xgamer04]

Well said, bro. I just can't stand the fact that people are content with using a language extremely crappily. I live in Minnesota, so I get to deal with lots of "you got dat dere ting workin' good?"-type stuff all the time.

Commercial Software

[RichiP]

I don't mind paying for commercial software (even closed sourced ones) so long as they're worth it. There are times when the the free and opensource alternatives either don't exist or have developers who don't think like users (and therefore their interface and/or documentation suck).

Oh ... in my case, however, I'd only pay if it ran on Linux (ie. paid for 2 copies of NWN for Linux and its expansion packs).

For your information...

[Svartalf]

The software in question has been "in the making" for over four years now. Simply put, you have to be using TurboLinux to get it at this time. Prior to that it was "available" to IA and other embedded systems integrators for evaluation and possible inclusion in their products. Well, I couldn't get a single copy out of them when we needed it and LinDVD (The competing product...) was a steaming pile of dung and we had to fight to evaluate that.

IFF they're worth it (as in quality software) and IFF they're available for more than one distribution will I not complain about having to pay for it.

This is a Good Thing

[m1a1]

Most people don't buy their DVD software anyways, well, not directly at least. They get it from the OEM when they order a PC or DVD drive.

Cyberlink is (IMO) trying to position itself as the only choice for legitimate dvd software for those OEMs now offering Linux PCs. If they find this move profitable it could encourage other companies to produce linux software as well.

Way Too Late.

[CherniyVolk]

Once upon a time, a gallant InterVideo boasted a proposition to release LinDVD. LinDVD, being a port of their WinDVD software for Linux, during a time when the legalities were clouded and MPAA stomped through the land.

If there was a time, to justify a commerical DVD player for the OpenSource community, InterVideo dropped the ball years ago. Why buy PowerDVD? Some might take this and use it as an example, right or wrong, to prove a point of how inefficient, slow, backwards and ignorant todays management techniques are. I firmly believe Xine is just as good as any of the highest priced DVD players for Windows/Mac. Why isn't it? It navigates DVD menus, it plays the movies well. For such a software package, that's it everything else will just sit infront of the movie and be annoying, like some child in the back seat asking "are we there yet?" over and over again.

All the money companies spend. It's a waste, they spend billions trying to keep up with social trends, billions trying to predict market progress, all down the toilet.

Re:Way Too Late.

[Justin205]

I firmly believe Xine is just as good as any of the highest priced DVD players for Windows/Mac.

Actually, OS X comes with a DVD Player of it's own, so you don't need any high-priced software. It's not fancy, but it works well enough. The only annoyance I find is that the fast forward/rewind is annoying to use, but if you're just watching a movie, it's perfect.

Also compare that behavior to Windows. Windows Media Player boasts about being able to play DVDs. Then you realize you need commercial software, sold separatly, to use that feature. On Linux you can play DVDs fairly easily (and legally when not in the USA) with Xine, Mplayer, et al. On OS X you get a legal DVD Player coming bundled with the OS. So why is Windows so far behind?

10F...

[Anonymous Coward]

10F... Fun, Fast, Future, Freedom, Flexible. Please find your "F". (from the official site)

Well.. I found one, but... I don't really think it's appropriate to say it here.

Commercial? Or proprietary?

[Brian Knotts]

You'd think around here we'd know the difference.

Re:A non-free piece of software for GNU/Linux on x

[nwbvt]

Yes, this is news. It is an example of a commericial company making a legal DVD player for Linux (or at least one distro of Linux). MPlayer, along with Xine, Ogle, and the rest, do not fit in that category.

"Open Source/Free Software can be also commercial. Think about Redhat. "

Commercial Red Hat is more than just open source software. It also includes support from the guys in Raleigh. Thats what you end up paying for.

Why is it ...

[polyp2000]

That most; if not all DVD playing software on any platform ; from any company; closed or open source. Insists on making their gui's look like the front of a set-top dvd player?Do they not always look ugly and out of place? No single dvd playing software seems to spend enough time on getting the gui right. I know stuff like Xine and MPlayer are skinnable (and others probably) but invariably they default to a nasty rendition of the front of a dvd player. Id like to see more time spent on a cleaner, simpler interface with buttons that are simple to understand. For example; take a look at the powerdvd screenshot. WTF are all those icons for ?

Nick...

Re:Why is it ...

[drinkypoo]

That's really not the best powerdvd skin, but I don't know which ones (if any others) are available on Linux. Regardless all of those buttons actually do something, like changing angle, audio track, etc. Did you know there are like five menus possible in the structure of a DVD? The context menu in PowerDVD allows you to jump straight to any of them if they are properly defined, though they usually aren't.

Re:Why is it ...

[Ben Hutchings]

Try Totem. It's a GNOME front-end for Xine.

Re:Why is it ...

[Prof.Phreak]

Who needs a GUI? mplayer (no gui) works great :-)

Re:Why is it ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Try totem

Linux isn't just for x86

[r00t]

I have a Mac G4 running Linux. The Mac G5 (64-bit)
is popular now; that's what Linus himself uses.
AMD Opterons (x86-64 or AMD64) make nice Linux boxes.

I've only seen BitKeeper try to keep up with all
the different ports. Nobody else even tries.

Re:Linux isn't just for x86

[Proud like a god]

Come on, that's not offtopic mods, he's got a very valid point.

Re:Linux isn't just for x86

[Ilgaz]

I got g5 but I don't see it using advanced 64bit stuff to do progressive scan etc.

Even it doesn't try to use 24 bit 96 khz onboard sound to downsample dolby 5.1 to stereo, maybe dolby virtual surround. I mean, when user goes analogue 24 bit Stereo

Just giving clue to possible software/shareware coders who may read Slashdot...

Re:# of useful proprietary apps on Linux: still ze

[sparrow_hawk]

*Cough*CrossoverOffice*Cough*...

CLI

[Leadmagnet]

but is the a CLI option to watch it in ASCI

censorship comes to slashdot?

[Anonymous Coward]

from a previously PostBlocked postIE:

endangered specIEs on the internet? (Score:mynuts won, very annoying to the sponsors)
by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 04, @08:55AM (#9605297)
kind of rhymes with feekeys.

the badtoll for yOUR 'independence' being extracted from you buy yOUR owned corepirate nazi felon glowbull warmongering execrable, is absolutely unpayable by any population. lookout bullow.

all is not lost.

consult with/trust in yOUR creators.... doggedly rebuilding civilizations since/until forever. see you there?

I think you are all missing the point

[platypibri]

The geeks willing and able to do things the free and hard Linux way already have access to the tools they need to make everything work.

If Linux is going to be a real desktop alternative to Windows, there is going to have to be easy, "out of the box" entertainment solutions.

I'm a perfect example, I'm only about 10 to 30 percent the nerd you guys are. I finally got Plugger working... a little bit. I still can't see quicktime, PDF, or windows media files. And it took a month of tinkering in my spare time to get the DVD configured. That's a hobby OS folks, and it always will be at that rate. And I'm the guy in my circle who fixes all my friends Macs and PC!!! I'm about as nerdy as you can hope for in the general masses.

If you fundamentally hate what Turbo Linux is trying to do, just admit you LIKE the smaller "Geek" market share and be content. You still dominate the server world (like we dominate the Graphics world).

Re:commercial? -- too little, too late

[IANAAC]

I'm always fascinated with companies who completely miss the boat on a market. I've been able to play encrypted DVDs with menus/navigation for a couple of years now with completely free software (Ogle/Okle/associated libs). And it works well.

These companies can whine all they want to me about libdvdcss and libdvdread not being legit, but I get them from reputable sources, linked many times from Linux distributor's official sites.

Had PowerDVD been available a couple of years ago, I may have taken notice, but now it's too little, too late.

Re:A non-free piece of software for GNU/Linux on x

[aristotle-dude]

FYI. Distributing Mplayer with codecs that violate patents/copyright violates the GPL in the US and many other countries.

Let's go the whole mile..

[k98sven]

Let's be a bit more precise, since being precise is rather important in legal matters..

What the norwegian court found (in Norwegian) was:

"DVD-Jon" did not have the intention to promote piracy, but to enable playing on Linux, and enable making back-ups of his DVDs.

The court also found that there is a fair-use right to a backup copy. They also found that licenses voiding this right were unenforcable.

They also found that the reverse-engineering done by "the nomad" (not Jon himself) was done in order to obtain interoperability, and thus legal under Norwegian and European (91/250/EEC, article 6) law.

Hence, they found that decrypting DVDs using this information aquired through reverse-engineering in order to create backup-copies was legal.

Basically what I'm saying here, is that from the verdict, it is not clear that he would've been found innocent if the procecution had been able to prove he had created DeCSS with the intent to enable piracy.

So you can't generalize the ruling into "Decrypting DVD's is not illegal in Norway".

Re:Let's go the whole mile..

[Anonymous Coward]

> So you can't generalize the ruling into "Decrypting DVD's is not illegal in Norway".

You really should learn how to read. The parent was referring to the arguments made during the trial, not the ruling.

Re:Let's go the whole mile..

[k98sven]

You really should learn how to read.

Bragging about your new skills, eh?

The parent was referring to the arguments made during the trial, not the ruling.

Yes, that was the reference, and since the defense won, the implication would be that that was the finding of the court. It was not.

Besides which, the general argument "Decrypting DVD's is not illegal" was not the strategy put forward by the defense either.

Re:Let's go the whole mile..

[Anonymous Coward]

Correct me if I'm wrong but in MOST countries, there's no legal basis for the enforcement of region coding is there?

Which means you could claim that you need DeCSS, even if you have software that plays "region X" discs, if you want to play "region Y" discs. If you bought it, why shouldn't you be able to play it? OK, there may be laws about importing en mass from other markets without a license, but surely an individual is free to go overseas, buy a DVD, bring it home and watch it. Therefore DeCSS could be seen as required for fair use even if commercial DVD playback software is available and even if you have it.

I for one have DVDs from at least three different regions, and I'll be damned before you see some morons telling me where to buy my DVDs or how I can watch them. Even if it's illegal. Stuff them. I paid the money. If they won't provide software or hardware to play all my DVDs off the shelf, I'm going to do whatever it takes to be able to play them in a way I'm comfortable with.

Re:Let's go the whole mile..

[Anonymous Coward]

> It was not.

Yes, it was. If the court found that decrypting DVDs was illegal, he would have been convicted.

Since he was not convicted, the court must have found that decrypting DVDs is not illegal.

Here's hoping...

[Grimster]

that the linux version is not as bloated (badly written?) as the Windows version.

My "media player" pc was a celeron 1.7 ghz 512M ram and I installed PowerDVD (because it was on a CD and I was too lazy to download WinDVD which is the player I usually use). Well I couldn't play DVD's with it, it hitched and jerked and paused so much I thought it was a bad DVD (except it was a DVD ripped to the harddrive, screw messing with those scratchable disks) so I tried another dvd image, and another, after 3 different movies played like a DVD that had been manhandled by my 3 year old, I was like "hmm", checked task manager and cpu usage was near 100% (just to play a DVD???). Installed Intervideo WinDVD 4 and put in my registration (yes I bought it) and it played FINE, perfect, no hitches, cpu usage was not bad, hovered in the 20-30% stage.

So to make a long story longer, here's hoping the Linux version isn't as bloated and/or badly written as the Windows version else you'll probably need a near 3Ghz machine just to play some darn DVD's!

Paying for software isn't THAT bad

[raistphrk]

The wide availability of free open source software has spoiled a lot of us. I mean...when it comes down to it, I don't LIKE to pay for software, because I don't have a lot of money. However, if I see a product that I like, and also works well, I don't mind paying for it.

Case in point: I use FreeBSD, and I have a SBLive 5.1 sound card, with a SPDIF output. If I were in Windows, Creative's drivers allow me to use the SPDIF output without any trouble. However, FreeBSD's stock pcm driver, while adequate, doesn't support SPDIF output on the 4-STABLE kernel tree. I routinely had to switch between analog and digital output for sound.

I'd used oss in Linux a while back, so I downloaded the FreeBSD build and gave it a whirl. The trial copy worked great, so I bought a license.

Granted, I didn't want to spend any money, but it did exactly what I wanted it to do, and some. So I consider that a worthwhile investment.

I think it's understandable to have reservations about paying money for software owned by Big Evil Corporations(tm), because you don't want to feed the beast. However, when it comes to development on open source and free open source platforms, if the developers aren't getting paid, new features aren't going to be appearing magically. Having software that's free (in terms of beer and speech) may mean that you don't have to pay MONEY for it, but you still should be contributing something.

For my part, I can't write code for crap. I've made several attempts to learn C, but they generally result in disaster. Since I can't contribute patches back to developers, I don't mind buying boxed copies of the software, or books, to help pay for development.

Re:Paying for software isn't THAT bad

[Anonymous Coward]

I think it's understandable to have reservations about paying money for software owned by Big Evil Corporations(tm), because you don't want to feed the beast. However, when it comes to development on open source and free open source platforms, if the developers aren't getting paid, new features aren't going to be appearing magically. Having software that's free (in terms of beer and speech) may mean that you don't have to pay MONEY for it, but you still should be contributing something.

Please note that I have absolutely no problem paying for commercial software; I simply reject proprietary software, whether no-cost or not.

Re:Paying for software isn't THAT bad

[mrchaotica]

Paying for Cyberlink's player software is no problem (assuming it's good, anyway). The problem is paying royalties for a patented algorithm, which shouldn't be allowed to be patented. Not only is it morally unacceptable, but it also helps those who are immoral financially and by lending credibility to their immorality.

I'd buy PowerDVD if it were better than Mplayer or whatver, and I played DVDs enough to care, but I'm sure as hell not going to buy it just because it has a "legal" decryption algorithm! Moreover, at the moment I'd use an "illegal" program even if it's worse, out of sheer civil disobedience and spite.

Speaking of which, it's not civil disobedience if you don't tell anyone about it, so here goes: I HAVE, AND USE, DeCSS! COME AND GET ME, YOU LITIGIOUS BASTARDS!!

Re:A non-free piece of software for GNU/Linux on x

[Geoffreyerffoeg]

No, it's an article because it legally licences a CSS decryptor. That's why it's sold for money (and isn't Free).

For years Linux users claimed that they had to use DeCSS/libdvdcss/some other reverse-engineered CSS decryptor since there is no DVD player for Linux with a legal decryptor. Now there is one. That's news.

step back and look again

[zogger]

Nope, they will pay for stuff-hardware, tangible stuff, same as anyone else. And the linux coders will give it back 10 fold over to the hardware vendors by doing their work for them if they would just open it up a scosh. And the linux users who aren't coders will submit bug reports, and also pay for the hardware.

Saying linux users won't pay for anything is not true, they don't want to pay for intangibles,they think "owning" an intangible thought is nuts, and counter productive and bad for business and society, so they have developed and offer a new way to do things. They are willing to trade back and contribute actual effort to the hardware vendors as long as they stop being dicks about it. The ball is in the hardware vendors court, along with the "obscene profits from intangible copies" lobby, who need to get a clue or three as well.

You would have a valid point if the linux "movement" wasn't offering anything back, but they are, in spades, and they keep getting shat upon and told they are cheap, when they are the most giving and sharing folks out there. They keep going "HERE, take all this free stuff we developed, all we ask is access to a few devices specs, and make it legal to make them work better FOR YOU AND FOR US". And that is supposed to prove that "linux" is greedy? huh? Is that really so much for them to ask?

Noppe, try another argument, because that dog surely don't hunt.

Re:step back and look again

[shadowbearer]

Well put, zogger. There are entirely too many assholes out there who seem to think that the entire system was put in place for their own benefit, and don't understand the basic premise of survival: sharing what you know with others comes back much amplified. The artifices of the system that keeps those sorts in place historically never lasts, either - not that that would mean anything to those shortsighted morons. Not that I weep when they get blindsided by it.

SB, madder 'n hell

Buying software for Linux

[dpilot]

I have one copy of Windows PowerDVD, which came bundled with either the motherboard or DVD drive I bought at the time. (1.5 years ago)

I'm buying some more hardware this month, and it will include a bundled DVD player, but not PowerDVD. But I can pick up PowerDVD for only $2 or $3, and probably will. Then I can install both, and use the one I like better. $3 isn't too much to throw away, if the no-cost bundled player is better.

I wonder how much PowerDVD for Linux will cost?
That's the other side of buying Linux software, having to pay 2-10X the price of the same/equivalent Windows software. Or at least paying Windows list price, while most Windows software gets sold at some decent discount.
Pay? Yes. Pay slightly more? Maybe. Pay much more? No.

Alternative architectures?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah, but does it support amd64? PPC? SPARC?

xine works on my amd64.

OS Requirements

[phalse phace]

Anyone else notice the OS requirements? Seems like bloated software to me.

Operating System hardware requirements:

PC/AT Compatible hardware
CPU: Pentium III, 1.0Ghz or greater recommended
Memory: 512MB recommended
Hard Drive: IDE / SCSI HDD (5GB available space (recommended)
Video Card: VGA or greater
Mouse: USB, PS/2 mouse
Misc: 3.5" floppy drive, CD-ROM drive (IDE ATAPI/SCSI), Ethernet card

Looks like my old PIII @ 500 Mhz and 512MB RAM might not be able to run this.

Re:OS Requirements

[dvdeug]

Anyone else notice the OS requirements? Seems like bloated software to me

MPlayer would usually drop frames when running DVDs on my PIII-450 so the CPU seems about right for reliably running a DVD perfectly, especially if you want to scale it. The hard drive space and memory seem a bit excessive, though.

Re:OS Requirements

[Anonymous Coward]

What? No DVD-ROM drive?

Re:OS Requirements

[evilviper]

MPlayer would usually drop frames when running DVDs on my PIII-450

Wow, you must have had some serious hardware problems. Video card, sound card, hard drive, RAM, etc. Something was really slowing down the process, because lots of people are playing DVDs on hardware with far lower specs with no frames dropped.

especially if you want to scale it.

No, hardware scaling takes essentially no CPU power at all. You'll only need software scaling if you are using a card with lowsy drivers that don't have XV support yet.

Re:# of useful proprietary apps on Linux: still ze

[dnaumov]

"# of useful proprietary apps on Linux: still zero"

I wonder what that makes Oracle...

I use Solaris on UltraSparc

[SHEENmaster]

I still don't have a single legal way to play DVDs.

Re:I use Solaris on UltraSparc

[Anonymous Coward]

I use Gentoo GNU/Linux, but on PPC. I'm guessing I still don't have a legal way of playing DVDs on Linux.

Huh.....Its all over from Here.

[The Foo]

Well, now that its got a valid DVD player......stuff is a little better.

Re:# of useful proprietary apps on Linux: still ze

[drinkypoo]

I use PowerDVD and I have none of the problems you seem to have (though there is an issue in PowerDVD 5 with SPDIF playback.) In addition, PowerDVD does have the features you list except perhaps all the keyboard shortcuts (it does have a handful of those at least.) It has a virtual jog wheel sort of thing (actually, it's more like the twistable ring found around some jog wheels) which lets you pick assorted forward and reverse speeds. It takes screenshots without a hitch, but you have to use its internal function for this (it writes out BMP files) because PowerDVD uses a video overlay in order to get good speed out. This is a failing of Windows, not of PowerDVD.

Maybe you're speaking of an antiquated version?

Re:# of useful proprietary apps on Linux: still ze

[jdog1016]

Well, since people like you are so open with their contempt of software companies and commercial software in general, it's no wonder that those same companies see the linux market as being non-existent.

Please try pulling your head out of your ass and consider that CyberLink is still one of a very small number of companies that is supporting linux. They are helping linux. You, however, are hurting it and the community. No, we do not owe any measure of respect or thanks to these companies, but if we all show attitudes like yours, I doubt it's going to get any better.

Which is a good deal...

[rsilvergun]

The last time I priced comercial DVD software, it cost more to buy it than the DVD players it comes with (around $50 for the software, I can find a cheap DVD player in town for $40). If the software used complex deinterlacing algorythyms that made the images looks as nice as it does on a good TV I wouldn't mind (I watch a lot of anime, and what's with all these movies I'm seeing interlaced lately?). But they don't look any better than Xine/mplayer (latest versions of both of cousre).

Offtopic side note: This is one of my Windows pet peaves. For $200 dollars, you'd think Microsoft could include a bloody DVD decoder. But to be fair, I guess they've got enough antitrust problems to deal with.

Re:Which is a good deal...

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's my strategy: Most DVD player software has a free trial that cuts out after 10 minutes or something. That restriction is implemented in the player software, however, not the decoder (which is a seperate .dll). So, get a free, no-decoder-included player like InterActual, and connect it to the fully functional decoder that comes with the comercial player demo.(InterActual has a config thingy that scans the computer for DVD decoders, so it's easy)

Re:Which is a good deal...

[vanDerGraaf]

I'm curious. Every DVD drive I've bought (Newegg, other online sources) has come with the software as a bundle. Prices have been good, but not quite as low as you mentioned... $90. Is your concern just saving a few $$ after scouring the web for the lowest price OEM drive?

Re:Which is a good deal...

[dgoodman]

I watch a lot of anime, and what's with all these movies I'm seeing interlaced lately?

It's called telecining, and as long as anime is produced at 24fps, you're gonna see it. Telecine is a method for producing 29.97fps DVDs from 24fps material: essentially extra copies of existing fields are interlaced together to create the extra frames needed each second. Sometimes in awkward ways which are really obvious on a computer screen. There's really nothing that can be done, unless you rip the DVD and create a 24fps avi file using computationally expensive un-telecine algorithms (not the same as de-interlacing!).

Re:Which is a good deal...

[asavage]

...Telecine is a method for producing 29.97fps DVDs from 24fps material: essentially extra copies of existing fields are interlaced together to create the extra frames needed each second...

Correct me if i'am wrong, but 24fps to 29.97fps is sampling rate up conversion and doesn't involve interlacing at all. After the up conversion is complete the fields can then be (re)interlaced if you want. DVD is usually progressive scan though IIRC.

Re:Which is a good deal...

[dgoodman]

Well, it turns out you can't just duplicate frames (pairs of fields) wholesale, or else you get weird, jerky action. The solution is to do a little quasi-interpolation: by taking fields from different frames and interlacing them together to create a new composite frame, the action appears much smoother. It's not true interlacing, as it's only done on a few frames out of the 30 each second (rather than all of them), and the pattern is (for all intents and purposes) nearly random for deciding which frames to "interpolate" in this way...But in the end, you have 24 frames to work with, which means you have to somehow create 6 new ones using only those 24 available. Which means, since you can't just duplicate frames, there will be some small scale interlacing.

Re:Which is a good deal...

[Brandybuck]

For $200 dollars, you'd think Microsoft could include a bloody DVD decoder.

You think that's bad? For $59, you would think that Sony DVD drive I bought would have come with a DVD player. But no! If I had been using Windows as my primary platform I would have return the drive as defective...

Re:Which is a good deal...

[Anonymous Coward]

My projector supports real-time un-telecine. It just requires it to analyze the stream of data it's receiving, notice that the data is telecined, and the switch into 48fps instead of 60 and drop every 5th field. At least, that's how I believe it works. That can't be too difficult to put into DVD player software can it? In fact doesn't mplayer support that already?

Begin quote from "man mplayer":

detc[=var1=value2:var2=value2:...]
Attempts to reverse the 'telecine' process to recover a clean, non-interlaced stream at film framerate. This
filter is still experimental but seems to be usable. Please be aware that there is absolutely no use in this
filter unless you see interlacing when playing the movie! The following arguments (see syntax above) may be used
to control its behavior:
etc.

I see no excuse for DVD player software not supporting this, personally. A lot (the majority?) of DVDs are from movies (24FPS right?) and the vast majority of them are going to have this type of processing. Computers typically have progressive displays. The software should be converting the interlaced data into progressive, properly, and displaying it. Otherwise it looks like ass.

(I still can't work out why they didn't just store the data as progressive and let the DVD player telecine it. Oh wait, yes I can, but I wish they hadn't).

Re:Which is a good deal...

[Fred Foobar]

Are you sure?

I've watched some movies (on VHS) in slow-motion, and every fifth frame is an exact copy of the previous frame. I watched both a pre-recorded movie (Star Wars Ep. IV) and one from TV (Saturday Night Fever, which originally was on 24fps film), and both exhibited this behaviour. I think I watched other tapes recorded from TV, and they didn't repeat every fifth frame, because they were made directly for TV (which is 30fps, or more precisely 30 drop frame - 29.97fps).

Repeating frames like that very effectively translates 24fps to 30fps. There was no noticeable jerkiness in the movie at all. Mind you that 24 frames per second is fairly fast for the human mind/eye, so I wouldn't expect to detect that 1/5 of the frames are duplicates.

Re:Which is a good deal...

[aztracker1]

Well, any dvd drive I've seen comes with software, not linux software, but windows software, that is probably the #1 reason.. beyond this... MS pays a lot of licensing fees for quite a few things already in windows, and the shareholders would freak if the profits from windows fell more than 10% because of including dvd decoding...

Not saying this is right.. afterall the people that "own" patents on dvd decoding, are the same guys in a lot of cases, that make the hardware and/or media itself, so it is kinda stupid IMHO. That said, a comercial dvd software for *nix is a good thing... although the "licensing fees" are already collected from the software that came with the hardware... hell, have it just include the license with the hardware and make the free software legal.. would make too much sense though.

Why use it?

[evilmonkey_666]

There are already free better alternatives such as:

Ogle
VCL

Both of which support menus surround sound and all the usual bells and whistles, but are also region free and allow unrestricted skipping of commercials and copyright warnings :)

Re:Why use it?

[Anonymous Coward]

Duh, because they aren't legal?

Re:Why use it?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah, fuck legal. The legal system's a joke that's been bought by those with money. Law doesn't deserve the respect that it used to. I'll make my decisions based on my own judgement and common sense.

Re:Why use it?

[evilmonkey_666]

It's not illegal in free countries.

Try oKle!

[graviton137]

I'm the author of the oKle DVD player (for KDE). Many comments are complaining about ugly user interfaces - and rightfully so! I also thought of xine and mplayer being unusable by non-experts. So I scratched that itch and wrote my own player (based on the Ogle engine) where the goal was high usability and less eye-candy. It has full support for DVD menus and also more exotic features like bookmarks or taking screenshots. If you are not content with xine and mplayer - go and try oKle and please let me know what you think of it!

DVD was released in 1995. WTF took them so long?

[ThoreauHD]

Fuck them. DVD is about to be phased out for 17 GB, then 48 GB media. These guys already got 0wned by mplayer and a 14 year old.

No...

[Anonymous Coward]

The first commercial DVD player is one I can just buy and install on linux. NOT ONE I HAVE TO INSTALL A NEW FRIGGIN DISTRO TO USE. Unacceptable, this will hurt DVD on linux more than anything.

PowerDVD is decent...

[WWWWolf]

A small comparison: My computer is P3, 600MHz. PowerDVD runs fine most of the time (in Win98SE). However, DVD playback in Linux is tolerable but not 100% smooth; Xine stutters severely, VLC is almost watchable, Ogle is almost smooth but not quite, depending on DVD.

Admittedly the machine is on the low end of DVD playback recommendations... but still, commercial code seems like bit more optimized to me than the OSS code in this case. I don't have much need for neat "can't do on a real DVDCCA-licensed player" tricks if the playback sucks, right? *sigh*

(It's probably useless to whine. By the time the Linux DVD players have been optimized enough to run really smoothly on 600MHz, which is to say in a couple of years, I've probably already got a new computer anyway =)

Yet, even so, I wouldn't pay for DVD playback software actually, that stuff should be free...

Re:PowerDVD is decent...

[kylegordon]

Do you know if DMA is enabled for your DVD hardware? hdparm will tell you, and allow you turn it on if need be.

Re:PowerDVD is decent...

[WWWWolf]

Do you know if DMA is enabled for your DVD hardware? hdparm will tell you, and allow you turn it on if need be.

Yeah, I think so. using_dma = 1 (on). So it's definitely a case of playback software not being optimized.

Or maybe this is what I get for using Debian's binaries and not compiling my own mega-super-hyper-optimized binaries. ("helpful" suggestions from Gentoo fans will arrive in five, four, three, two...)

Hey, that's not Offtopic

[r00t]

What good is a closed-source x86 binary
going to do for me? The fact that Linux
runs on non-x86 makes this DVD software
useless for many of us.

Re:Hey, that's not Offtopic

[kantai]

who says they couldn't release a non-x86 binary?

So Where Is It?

[fireman]

I checked the Cyberlink site. No mention of Linux in the Product Requirements. All Winblows. Did a search on their site. Nothing.

This must be a bogus claim from Turbolinux... Are they running under Crossover or Whine?

Re:# of useful proprietary apps on Linux: still ze

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, since people like you are so open with their contempt of software companies and commercial software in general, it's no wonder that those same companies see the linux market as being non-existent.

Please try pulling your head out of your ass and consider that CyberLink is still one of a very small number of companies that is supporting linux. They are helping linux. You, however, are hurting it and the community. No, we do not owe any measure of respect or thanks to these companies, but if we all show attitudes like yours, I doubt it's going to get any better.

CyberLink is not helping GNU/Linux, they are helping themselves. Proprietary software hurts GNU/linux and its community. And if "getting any better" means "more proprietary software", then let us hope things never get "better".

Finally

[mosb1000]

No moe people can claim that DeCSS is perfectly okay because you can't buy a commercial DVD player for LUNIX. What's that? It's still perfectly okay? I just don't understand some people.

Re:Finally

[Anonymous Coward]

I've never stated that decss was okay because "you can't buy a commercial dvd player for linux". I've always stated that it should be okay for the same reason that any other software should be okay: Because I don't agree with software patents and if someone want's to write a free version of a commercial app, they should be able to.

The whole CSS thing is just a huge scam to muscle money out of people. Now THAT is not okay.

Re:Finally

[juhaz]

If this product had been there in the beginning, developing of DeCSS might have been illegal, but since it was not, the point is moot.

It was perfectly legal to reverse-engineer DeCSS for compability purposes, all charges against "dvd-jon" have been lifted. It doesn't become any less legal retroactively just because someone finally bothers to release an alternative n years later.

Using DeCSS may be illegal in US, and some other countries, but that's only because DMCA is insane, and prohibits owner of DVD from taking use of his fair use rights, and doesn't have anything at all to do with DeCSS itself.

Re:Finally

[evilviper]

No moe people can claim that DeCSS is perfectly okay okay because you can't buy a commercial DVD player for LUNIX.

DeCSS is a Windows program. It has nothing to do with Linux.

What's that? It's still perfectly okay?

Slashdot is not some collective hive mind. It's not as if every last one of us had that as the only excuse why open source DVD decryption software was morally okay. Find someone who posted a comment, saying that it was okay only because there was no commercial software, and ask them what they think now. The rest of us could care less about it.

The latest version of FireFox is only 0.9.2?

[Anonymous Coward]

The latest version of FireFox is 0.9.2 so I am surprised to see that you are somehow using FireFox 0.9.7. Well anyway, I did not have any trouble viewing the webpage with my old copy of FireFox 0.9.0.

Could I transplant it into another distro?

[Anonymous Coward]

If I buy TurboLinux 10F, I wonder if there is any way that I could transplant the DVD player into my favorite distro and use it there instead? I am sure that TurboLinux is probably an excellent distro but I would prefer to not have to change distros just for that reason. I wonder if there is anything in the licensing terms or some technical reason that I could not buy the TurboLinux 10F and then only use the DVD player from it and transplant it into some other distro. I also wonder if they will ever sell the DVD player seperately?

Lindows/Linspire had it for months!

[Darragh_IRL]

A commercial DVD player (not using hacked CSS codes) has been available through CNR in Lindows/Linspire for months now. It only costs $4.95, and plays all DVDs legally.

When will Slashdot editors ever learn...

[callipygian-showsyst]

...when to use "it's" and when to use "its?" I learned that in third grade, and never forgot.

Re:When will Slashdot editors ever learn...

[Anonymous Coward]

As a fellow Grammar Nazi, I empathize with your frustration, but I think that simply telling the masses that the mistake they make is a) common and b) stupid doesn't improve things. It's best to tell them why it's wrong, and how they ought to do it. It's clear that most Slashdotter's do not know the difference between it's and its. Not telling them the difference doesn't help. They aren't going to "RTFM" to improve their grammar so if you care about it you should explain it to them. Since you didn't, I will.

The mistake stems from the fact that we in English commonly use the "'s" clitic to denote possession, as in, "John's bitches". This use is arguably more common than the other usage, which is for contraction: "He is" -> "He's". As a result, when a grammar-deficient writer is presented with the problem of how to indicate possesion by "it", he generally wants to use the possessive clitic "'s". So he writes "it's". It is completely logical and completely wrong. This is why we love English.

Because as you probably know, its (possession) and it's (contraction for it is) are both pronounced the same way. This is also the only place in the English language where the habit of using "'s" as a contraction for "is" conflicts with our more widespread and general habit of using "'s" to indicate possesion. So if you constantly feel belittled and stupid for making the mistake, don't. It's natural. But it's still wrong and you should make an effort to correct it.

To recap: its (no apostrophe) denotes possesion by it, as in "its bitches are hot." With an apostrophe denotes contraction of "is", as in "it's good to be the king." If you need a memory aid, remember that contraction of is ALWAYS takes "'s", but possession often doesn't (think his, not he's, hers, not she's, etc).

This has been a public service anouncement by your friendly neighborhood grammar-nazi, Anonymous Coward.

Re:When will Slashdot editors ever learn...

[callipygian-showsyst]

Eats Shoots and Leaves!

Thank you!

About your sig... (OT)

[mark-t]

BSD is for people who love UNIX. Linux is for those who hate Microsoft.

Actually, I use Linux because I love Unix. I don't use BSD because it doesn't do everything I want without having to emulate Linux in the process (for example, using Sun's JDK).

Also, Linux had from the very beginning worked with less hardware requirements than BSD did. When Linux came out, I had a '386, with no coprocessor. Linux worked with it using '87 emulation, but when BSD first came out, it was completely impossible for me to use it on my system at home.

Also, Linux allowed me to partition a drive and install it on something other than a primary partition, enabling coexistence with DOS (which was what I used previously), but BSD did not.

It was because Linux worked on lower end hardware than BSD did that it acquired popularity much faster, and that in turn led to some companies choosing to develop software for it (like Sun).

I don't hate Microsoft, I don't like their products... but that has nothing to do with why I have been using Linux since 1992.

Re:About your sig... (OT)

[Anonymous Coward]

BTW: There is now a native FreeBSD port of Sun's JDK...it requires the Linux version to bootstrap, though.

Why?

[rd_syringe]

I thought Linux was about choice?

Linux will never, ever gain mainstream acceptance if no companies will develop for it. Amateur volunteer developers hacking away on weekends will never achieve the level of a funded, employed business entity who has a financial reason to develop the best software out there.

I don't get the aversion to commercial software on Linux.

Re:Why?

[JamesKPolk]

"Amateur volunteer developers hacking away on weekends will never achieve the level of a funded, employed business entity who has a financial reason to develop the best software out there."

Care to back up the stated and implied assertions here?

1. Existing software houses have a financial reason to develop the best software out there.

2. Existing software houses will be amateurs.

Re:Why?

[rd_syringe]

All I have to do is point out how things are now. Look at the current state of Linux on the desktop compared to OS X and Windows, also taking into account the application base for each.

Okay... so it's commercial, but for which region?

[mark-t]

Does this software play all DVD's, regardless of region? Or does it only play North American DVD's? Or does it somehow detect which region the computer is in via some magic software-only GPS? (Hmm... that might be possible, actually... if one is hooked up to the internet on a local connection)

Turbolinux

[joeljkp]

Speaking of TurboLinux (the distro in the article), does anyone know how it handles software installation and such? Do they provide feature upgrades for their apps (Mozilla, etc.), or just backported security updates?

Re:Turbolinux

[Anonymous Coward]

They have a software update tool called "Turbo Update". It will install security patches, application upgrades, etc. easily and quickly.

Speaking of debian...

[radoni]

i find this funny.

powerdvd rep contacting debian list asking for who to talk to.

A) the guy obviously doesn't follow what debian is all about
B) see point A

A hobby OS?

[Aldric]

That would be why my boss asked me to write a software system in it that will power the products of the entire company? Nope, try again.

Re:A hobby OS?

[platypibri]

You try again. How does this contradict my post at all? I mean really, did you READ it at all? I'm not even going to keep discussing it with you, because you saw the 2 words you wanted to see and missed MY whole point of veiw. Damn, talk about can't see the forest for the trees.

LinDVD 1.2.5-3

[Anonymous Coward]

LinDVD is an on going project-which does indeed exist. The current version is 1.2.5-3, and it works very nicely. The LinDVD binary is just over 5 megs, nice and small. It's not going to be open source anytime soon, and will not be anything other than an OEM product for now. IBM is (no surprise) their biggest LinDVD customer.

If you want to see it, go to the Hayward Adult School, and find the Saturday network teacher. It is unofficially demonstrated on Linux Mandrake, exclusively, at on the last day of the quarter.

It has the WinDVD 2000, 2.0 GUI though.

commercial?-One for the gipper.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Also, PowerDVD has the worst interface of any software DVD player. Why try to mimick a real device with all of the limitations that go along with it?"

Then you must hate Winamp?

Anyway one of my pet peeves with Linux multimedia (not just DVD's). Is there inability to handle bad media, be it a corrupted MP3, or a slightly scratched DVD. TOTEM for example will lock up solid upon hitting a bad MP3. While xine (and friends) will either lockup or crash when reading a DVD that has scratches. When I run the same through commercialware, it may not play, but it doesn't lock up, and in best cases will perservere through the bad spots.

Primary Advantage: reverse play/review

[whitis]

The primary advantage PowerDVD seems to offer over open source players, in my opinion, is reverse play or review mode. In the open source players, you can skip back to the begining of the scene or the previous scene but skipping back 10 seconds or so doesn't work. This is really the only difficult feature missing to make several open source players full featured players. One minor feature missing from open source players (don't recall PowerDVD. windvd, or media player having it either) is single frame forward and reverse (reverse depends on reverse play working). An assortment of fast and slow play speeds would also be nice (Power DVD offers many fast speeds but only a couple slow ones). An instant replay button (skip back 10 seconds or so and then play forward) would also be convenient.

Most of the free players seem to lack deinterlacing or the ability to switch deinterlacing mode on the fly (either manually or automatically) when the content changes. Deinterlacing is needed when they include content shot on a video camera or foolishly telecine (film to video conversion) the movie before encoding. A few DVDs actually mix modes within a single title.

Free players:

• ogle (supports menus, no deinterlacing)
• Xine (supports menus, has deinterlacing)
• VLC (supports menus, can't switch deinterlacing on fly)
• mplayer (no menus, can't switch deinterlacing on the fly)

It's not even the first proprietary dvd player

[Trestop]

Intervideo's lindvd product, that is a linux post of windvd that's bundled with every second dvd drive, was the first commercial dvd player for linux, and its so old i'm suprised no one mentioned it earlier- its been in the market for at least 3 years as far as i remember. Here's a url : http://www.intervideo.com/jsp/LinDVD.jsp . I hope i typed it in correctly- i'm posting from a cellular phone and cant really check ;-)

Nothing about Linux on Cyberlink's page

[dvNull]

No information about the Linux version on Cyberlink's page.

I will happily buy PowerDVD for Linux if I could, i do not want to install another distribution to use PowerDVD however.

Its a start

[watsondk]

Ok so its not open sourced, free, etc but at least its legal

The downside, region codes, macrovision, being forced to watch those FBI warnings, plus any commercials etc

my DVD collection, some 300+ 100% legal titles come from regions 1-4, so rather than spend $$$ on a legal linux player then be forced to either crack the region coding, or pay yet more $$$ to replace my non-region 4 titles I think I will be sticking to xine, which just plain works, plays everything, and all without worrying about the dreaded revenue raising region codes

when will the MPAA wake up and finally realize that region coding is so widely bypassed, and just abandon the concept altogether

all I want from a player, Linux or otherwise, is the ability to just play a movie, purchased from anywhere. Who cares about region codes, macrovision or those irritating commercials etc.

this legal Linux player is a start, just think about it, could the MPAA use this as an excuse to go after the existing Linux/open sourced players?

Re:A non-free piece of software for GNU/Linux on x

[Anonymous Coward]

luckily, most people distribute the codecs as secondary packages. And the GPL does say nothing about "use", only copying/distributing so it's all ok:)

Commercial linux aps exist, win oss too no problem

[urbieta]

There are free aps for win too, the mix is just what the doctor ordered :)

As long as we may choose between paying or the oss version, I am quite happy, because I have the power to choose :)

Why cant someone do this...

[jonwil]

Build a closed source but free DVD player for linux.

Is it simply a matter of the fact that no-one is going to pay the big $$$ for a CSS licence then give their work away?

Re:Why cant someone do this...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, that's pretty much the reason. The big boys want royalties for each player that can decrypt CSS. Anybody who releases a free version "legally" would be paying these royalties out of their own pocket.

I agree with everything you said, except...

[Kjella]

So you can't generalize the ruling into "Decrypting DVD's is not illegal in Norway".

Why not? Let's try this example "Carrying a kitchen knife is not illegal". Yet "Carrying a kitchen knife in order to commit murder is illegal."

Lots of perfectly normal actions will be illegal if they are part of or used to commit a crime. And, both in the US and here, copyright violation is a crime. But we don't need to qualify everything with "unless you use it to commit a crime". That goes for everything.

Decrypting DVDs is legal (i.e. not illegal) in Norway. Doing something in order to commit a crime is, most everywhere, illegal. Doh.

Kjella

Re:I agree with everything you said, except...

[k98sven]

Yes, well the difference here is that the burden of proof is reversed: Reverse-engineering is not generally legal -It is legal for interoperability purposes as an exception to the rule.

Since the fact that DVD-playing software, and the DVD encryption had been reverse-engineered was not in dispute, the burden of evidence was on the defense to prove that it was legal with the framework of 'fair-use' and interoperability.

They succeeded at that. However, it does not void the rule itself.

So in this case, I do feel it is more appropriate to assume it is illegal and present the legal options as special-cases, because that is how the law looks.

Re:I agree with everything you said, except...

[k98sven]

I should clarify that.. Reverse-engineering is not generally illegal either. It's a gray area, subject to license agreements and so on.

However, the right to reverse-engineer for interoperability purposes is clearly legal, and can't be waived by license agreements.
(Norwegian copyright law, paragraph 39i).

Finally?

[Amorpheus_MMS]

If I understand correctly, had CSS never been cracked, this would be the first time people could actually watch DVDs on Linux. Sounds kinda ridiculous, doesn't it? Thankfully we're not entirely dependant on corporate shmucks.

We don't need a player...

[cr0sh]

We need a decoder.

We already have tons of capable players. What is lacking is a legal decoder - a legal form of DeCSS. Such a module would have a very simple interface (likely only stdin/out, but maybe something a little more complex). We know it would be small (look how small DeCSS is) - basically it would take the encoded stream and spit out the decoded stream, which could be passed on to whatever software we wanted to use.

It wouldn't be the best solution (I dislike any proprietary and closed software because of the possible unknown security holes that could be opened up - how do you know if that DVD player software can't execute code in a buffer overrun or something?), but it would be better than "yet-another-player", and it would allow others to easily develop for it. Ideally, it would simply drop in to mplayer or xine as another module for playback.

We probably won't ever see this, though - simply for the fact that they (the DVD-CCA) want to control the entire stream - they don't want a decoded stream "in the open" anywhere if they can help it...

No need for Internet access...

[Anonymous Coward]

You say that as though everyone and their brother here didn't already have a copy.

Hell, I'll do the Googling for you:
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/DeCSS/Gallery/

They've long known about this site. They've done nothing. One might assume that estoppel would come into play were they to sue over it...

On the desktop?

[tepples]

Is the Oracle DBMS made affordable for single-user use for combination with a GUI designer into an Access clone? If not, # of useful proprietary desktop apps on Linux without using a Wine derivative: still zero

Re:If [nt] means [no text], why did you write text

[Anonymous Coward]

Slashcode won't accept an empty text box.

Not a bad piece of news..

[LibrePensador]

I am happy that this is available as it will soothe some people that do not consider a desktop ready and less they have familiar proprietary software on it.

For the rest of us, here's the real EASY way to watch DVDs in Linux:

1) Install Mandrake 10
2) Google for easy urpmi and set up the plf repository as per the instructions on that page (I promise, it's real easy)
3) urpmi libdvdcss
4) Put a DVD in the drive and watch as it begins playing without any further intervention with full support for menus.

Mod parent up ( Re:Finally)

[Anonymous Coward]

Somebody mod the parent up. Some of the comments seen here make it blindingly obvious why software and hardware companies are lukewarm about supporting open source.

It's still not choice

[zaxios]

The same problem is there: we still can't choose our own platform. DVD CCA has added more ground within its walls, but the walls are still there and just as oppressive to anyone who wants real freedom.

I don;t mind commercial at all

[Nailer]

Commercial softwate tends to be very well maintained - especially if its open source.

Re:Okay... so it's commercial, but for which regio

[Anonymous Coward]

It will play all regions except for Japan. They have their own PowerDVD version for that country.

If you have TV at home

[Ilgaz]

Buy a deck. Really... The computer kills all the movie exprience. Even on Mac OS X, Intego netbarrier warned me about a ping flood to my system in middle of movie. Yes, my fault, I didn't turn it off.

I mean, deck is always better. Also I must add, if you don't have any problems DON'T UPDATE their firmwares. Really risky. They are devices, not computers ;)

Re:# of useful proprietary apps on Linux: still ze

[Anonymous Coward]

MatLab and Maple are pretty useful proprietary Linux apps.

Re:Dear Grammar Nazi

[Anonymous Coward]

The correct term is "for Christ's sake". Note the apostrophe.

If you're going to nitpick the hell out of other people's posts, then expect the same to be done to yours.

Re:commercial? Caching CSS keys

[renehollan]

Actually, I can think of good reasons to cache CSS keys: when one has their entire DVD collection copied to a home server.

Yes, you could rip the DVD and decrypt the content, and use clients to read it without ever worrying about CSS again. But, stop and think: what if someone broke into your house and stole that server? Or, cracked through your firewall and just sucked the content down? Now, they start redistributing copies of copyright content that you've conveniently decrypted for them. To what extent have you contributed to their crime of copyright infringement?

I'd say you were at least negligent in not properly protecting the copyright content of the copyright holder: you took some pains to remove what protection they applied, and then did not substitute something at least as good.

Yes, yes, with deCSS so easily available, it's not like the crook needed your help, but, and IANAL, I don't think that matters when determining your negligence.

Personally, I prefer to keep ripped content encrypted, and have the playback devices maintain a cache of keys as appropriate (or access a secure CSS cache server that authenticates it's clients).

I haven't implemented this fully, but it should not be terribly difficult: combine xine's notion of maintaining a local CSS key cache, with a hacked nbd to access virtual remote DVDs.

I never went to college smartass.

[fw3]

Uh huh? and so you're here to prove that people who haven't can also be stupid? Rejoinding an ad-hominem with another ad-hominem isn't exactly the height of dialectic intercourse.