Slashdot Mirror

Muslim Clerics on the Religious Rulings Regarding Wife-Beating

" Introduction

On January 14, 2004, Sheikh Muhammad Kamal Mustafa, the imam of the mosque of the city of Fuengirola, Costa del Sol, was sentenced by a Barcelona court to a 15 month suspended sentence and fined 2160 for publishing his book 'The Woman in Islam.' In this book, the Egyptian-born Sheikh Mustafa writes, among other things, on wife-beating in accordance with Shar'ia law.

On pages 86-87, Mustafa states: "The [wife-]beating must never be in exaggerated, blind anger, in order to avoid serious harm [to the woman]." He adds, "It is forbidden to beat her on the sensitive parts of her body, such as the face, breast, abdomen, and head. Instead, she should be beaten on the arms and legs," using a "rod that must not be stiff, but slim and lightweight so that no wounds, scars, or bruises are caused." Similarly, "[the blows] must not be hard." [1]

..."

If you don't hate anyone why did so many of you cheer 9-11? Why do the vast majority of conflicts in the world involve Muslims? The reason many people look at Middle Easterners as terrorists is because the majority of terrorists are from the Mid East and because of stuff like this. I know that's not the same as the majority of Mid East people being terrorists but I haven't seen any repudiation of terrorist's tactics or agendas (even the Arab and Muslims groups in the US are reluctant). If anything, it seems to me that the only thing the people of the Mid East are willing to fight for is a more conservative/reactionary society/government. Iran overthrew a US supported dictator (apparently not very well supported) who advocated western style reforms for a bunch of dictators who wanted more repression (although the younger generation seems to be regretting that now). 'Students' took a lot of people hostage and kept them hostage for years. I met several of them and heard horror stories about torture. Not a good PR move.

Many of your culture's scientifict advances were also based on the work of others (the Greeks, Romans, Jews, Indians, Chinese, Arabs, etc...). If the Europeans didn't regains what they lost from you, they would've gotten it from someone else sooner or later but thanks for the shortcut.

If your culture is so great why do you tolerate the Mullahs? No offense, but I find it sad that you have to go so far back to claim any sort of significant cultural/scientific achievement. Frankly, the tolerance, scientific openess, and culture that made your society great hasn't been seen in centuries. It isn't a weak state that makes your culture weak; it's a weak culture that makes your state weak. You may treat individual westerners with tolerance but I find it hard to believe that you respect westerners in abstract since much of what is wrong with the Middle East today stems from a rejection of modernity. So when when your government tortures to death some Canadian journalists and others think of you as terrorists, don't take it so personally. It's probably meant in the same abstract way that many people justifying hatred of the US but don't hate Americans (except for the ones who vote Republican). Some hard critical self examination needs to take place and you can't blame it all on the Jews and the US. I'm not saying we're blameless but the US didn't start all problems either.

Although unquestionably a forgery, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion is taken seriously by more than a few cranks. It is widely circulated in the Arab world where it is used to stir up hatred of Jews. According to the Egyptian newspaper al-Usbu', the new Alexandria Library, a showpiece with substantial international support, put an Arabic translation of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion on display in the same case as the Torah, claiming that it is a central work of Jewish thought. After much criticism, they have now removed it. This posting on Language Log contains details and links. Similarly, Palestinian Authority Educational Television has repeatedly broadcast "educational" programs about the Protocols in which it is treated as real. The most recent instance of this was on December 28th. Palestine Media Watch issued this report, which includes an English-language transcript.

Before someone starts a flame war, this is not a statement about the situation in Iraq, Israel, Islam, Al-Qaeda or any other issue.

Have the balls to go poke around MEMRI.

Some prime examples of "progressive Islamic thought":

Iranian Daily: 'Extremist Jews Plotting to Assassinate Chirac,' Mossad Agents Behind Najaf Blast

Three Saudi Dailies Publish Government Official's Op-Ed: 'Jews are Masters at Manipulating the Media, Money, World Organizations'

Based on Koranic Verses, Interpretations, and Traditions, Muslim Clerics State: The Jews Are the Descendants of Apes, Pigs, And Other Animals

And of course, there is nothing like the official sermons of the PLO, er, Palestinian Authority, where such great statements are uttered with the full knowledge of the PLO:

"This is the fate that Allah has bestowed upon us, people of Palestine, that we be worthy of struggling and giving our souls on this good and blessed land... Blessings to our Shahids. Blessings to our Shahids who sacrifice their souls easily for the sake of Allah. Blessings to our Shahids who were burned yesterday in their cars" (referring to suicide care bombers, apparently)

And here:

""We tell them: in as much as you love life - the Muslim loves death and martyrdom. There is a great difference between he who loves the hereafter and he who loves this world. The Muslim loves death and [strives for] martyrdom".

"No preacher or sermonizer has right to begin his words without blessing all our Shahids... The Jews cannot influence the actions of our youth and children. But for you, Allah has chosen Shahada... Allah had honored our youth... by choosing you and by choosing from among you the Shahids... Is the Shahid dead like other dead, which requires us to offer condolences and mourn with his family, friend and relatives? Or is the Shahid enjoying virtues and the ability to perform miracles, which gives us the right to congratulate the Shahid and his family?... We have the right to congratulate the Shahids' families, and not extend condolences and sorrow of our Shahids, if they [sacrifice themselves] to Allah... But the Shahid is spared the agony of death. This is one of the miracles of the Shahid. Is it not enough that the Shahid weds 72 black eyed [virgins]?... When the Shahid sees the grace of martyrdom and death for the sake of Allah he will wish to return to this world to be killed in it ten times... The Shahid - is it enough for him that he does not feel the blow of the sword or the pain of death or of the killing rather, as one of you feels a [wasp] sting..."

"A young man said to me: 'I am 14 years old, and I have four years left before I blow myself up'... We, the Muslims on this good and blessed land, are all - each one of us - seekers of Martyrdom... The Koran is very clear on this: The greatest enemies of the Islamic nation are the Jews, may Allah fight them... Blessings for whoever assaulted a soldier... Blessings for whoever has raised his sons on the education of Jihad and Martyrdom; blessings for whoever has saved a bullet in order to stick it in a Jew's head..."

"O brother believers, the criminals, the terrorists - are the Jews... They are the ones who must be butchered and killed, as Allah the Almighty said: 'Fight them: Allah will torture them at your hands, and will humiliate them and will help you to overcome them... The Jews are like a [gas] pedal - as long as you step on it with your foot, it doesn't move, but if you lift your foot from it, it hurts you and punishes you. This is the case of the Jews."

"Religion of peace" my ass.

Have the balls to go poke around MEMRI.

Some prime examples of "progressive Islamic thought":

Iranian Daily: 'Extremist Jews Plotting to Assassinate Chirac,' Mossad Agents Behind Najaf Blast

Three Saudi Dailies Publish Government Official's Op-Ed: 'Jews are Masters at Manipulating the Media, Money, World Organizations'

Based on Koranic Verses, Interpretations, and Traditions, Muslim Clerics State: The Jews Are the Descendants of Apes, Pigs, And Other Animals

And of course, there is nothing like the official sermons of the PLO, er, Palestinian Authority, where such great statements are uttered with the full knowledge of the PLO:

"This is the fate that Allah has bestowed upon us, people of Palestine, that we be worthy of struggling and giving our souls on this good and blessed land... Blessings to our Shahids. Blessings to our Shahids who sacrifice their souls easily for the sake of Allah. Blessings to our Shahids who were burned yesterday in their cars" (referring to suicide care bombers, apparently)

And here:

""We tell them: in as much as you love life - the Muslim loves death and martyrdom. There is a great difference between he who loves the hereafter and he who loves this world. The Muslim loves death and [strives for] martyrdom".

"No preacher or sermonizer has right to begin his words without blessing all our Shahids... The Jews cannot influence the actions of our youth and children. But for you, Allah has chosen Shahada... Allah had honored our youth... by choosing you and by choosing from among you the Shahids... Is the Shahid dead like other dead, which requires us to offer condolences and mourn with his family, friend and relatives? Or is the Shahid enjoying virtues and the ability to perform miracles, which gives us the right to congratulate the Shahid and his family?... We have the right to congratulate the Shahids' families, and not extend condolences and sorrow of our Shahids, if they [sacrifice themselves] to Allah... But the Shahid is spared the agony of death. This is one of the miracles of the Shahid. Is it not enough that the Shahid weds 72 black eyed [virgins]?... When the Shahid sees the grace of martyrdom and death for the sake of Allah he will wish to return to this world to be killed in it ten times... The Shahid - is it enough for him that he does not feel the blow of the sword or the pain of death or of the killing rather, as one of you feels a [wasp] sting..."

"A young man said to me: 'I am 14 years old, and I have four years left before I blow myself up'... We, the Muslims on this good and blessed land, are all - each one of us - seekers of Martyrdom... The Koran is very clear on this: The greatest enemies of the Islamic nation are the Jews, may Allah fight them... Blessings for whoever assaulted a soldier... Blessings for whoever has raised his sons on the education of Jihad and Martyrdom; blessings for whoever has saved a bullet in order to stick it in a Jew's head..."

"O brother believers, the criminals, the terrorists - are the Jews... They are the ones who must be butchered and killed, as Allah the Almighty said: 'Fight them: Allah will torture them at your hands, and will humiliate them and will help you to overcome them... The Jews are like a [gas] pedal - as long as you step on it with your foot, it doesn't move, but if you lift your foot from it, it hurts you and punishes you. This is the case of the Jews."

"Religion of peace" my ass.

Have the balls to go poke around MEMRI.

Some prime examples of "progressive Islamic thought":

Iranian Daily: 'Extremist Jews Plotting to Assassinate Chirac,' Mossad Agents Behind Najaf Blast

Three Saudi Dailies Publish Government Official's Op-Ed: 'Jews are Masters at Manipulating the Media, Money, World Organizations'

Based on Koranic Verses, Interpretations, and Traditions, Muslim Clerics State: The Jews Are the Descendants of Apes, Pigs, And Other Animals

And of course, there is nothing like the official sermons of the PLO, er, Palestinian Authority, where such great statements are uttered with the full knowledge of the PLO:

"This is the fate that Allah has bestowed upon us, people of Palestine, that we be worthy of struggling and giving our souls on this good and blessed land... Blessings to our Shahids. Blessings to our Shahids who sacrifice their souls easily for the sake of Allah. Blessings to our Shahids who were burned yesterday in their cars" (referring to suicide care bombers, apparently)

And here:

""We tell them: in as much as you love life - the Muslim loves death and martyrdom. There is a great difference between he who loves the hereafter and he who loves this world. The Muslim loves death and [strives for] martyrdom".

"No preacher or sermonizer has right to begin his words without blessing all our Shahids... The Jews cannot influence the actions of our youth and children. But for you, Allah has chosen Shahada... Allah had honored our youth... by choosing you and by choosing from among you the Shahids... Is the Shahid dead like other dead, which requires us to offer condolences and mourn with his family, friend and relatives? Or is the Shahid enjoying virtues and the ability to perform miracles, which gives us the right to congratulate the Shahid and his family?... We have the right to congratulate the Shahids' families, and not extend condolences and sorrow of our Shahids, if they [sacrifice themselves] to Allah... But the Shahid is spared the agony of death. This is one of the miracles of the Shahid. Is it not enough that the Shahid weds 72 black eyed [virgins]?... When the Shahid sees the grace of martyrdom and death for the sake of Allah he will wish to return to this world to be killed in it ten times... The Shahid - is it enough for him that he does not feel the blow of the sword or the pain of death or of the killing rather, as one of you feels a [wasp] sting..."

"A young man said to me: 'I am 14 years old, and I have four years left before I blow myself up'... We, the Muslims on this good and blessed land, are all - each one of us - seekers of Martyrdom... The Koran is very clear on this: The greatest enemies of the Islamic nation are the Jews, may Allah fight them... Blessings for whoever assaulted a soldier... Blessings for whoever has raised his sons on the education of Jihad and Martyrdom; blessings for whoever has saved a bullet in order to stick it in a Jew's head..."

"O brother believers, the criminals, the terrorists - are the Jews... They are the ones who must be butchered and killed, as Allah the Almighty said: 'Fight them: Allah will torture them at your hands, and will humiliate them and will help you to overcome them... The Jews are like a [gas] pedal - as long as you step on it with your foot, it doesn't move, but if you lift your foot from it, it hurts you and punishes you. This is the case of the Jews."

"Religion of peace" my ass.

Have the balls to go poke around MEMRI.

Some prime examples of "progressive Islamic thought":

Iranian Daily: 'Extremist Jews Plotting to Assassinate Chirac,' Mossad Agents Behind Najaf Blast

Three Saudi Dailies Publish Government Official's Op-Ed: 'Jews are Masters at Manipulating the Media, Money, World Organizations'

Based on Koranic Verses, Interpretations, and Traditions, Muslim Clerics State: The Jews Are the Descendants of Apes, Pigs, And Other Animals

And of course, there is nothing like the official sermons of the PLO, er, Palestinian Authority, where such great statements are uttered with the full knowledge of the PLO:

"This is the fate that Allah has bestowed upon us, people of Palestine, that we be worthy of struggling and giving our souls on this good and blessed land... Blessings to our Shahids. Blessings to our Shahids who sacrifice their souls easily for the sake of Allah. Blessings to our Shahids who were burned yesterday in their cars" (referring to suicide care bombers, apparently)

And here:

""We tell them: in as much as you love life - the Muslim loves death and martyrdom. There is a great difference between he who loves the hereafter and he who loves this world. The Muslim loves death and [strives for] martyrdom".

"No preacher or sermonizer has right to begin his words without blessing all our Shahids... The Jews cannot influence the actions of our youth and children. But for you, Allah has chosen Shahada... Allah had honored our youth... by choosing you and by choosing from among you the Shahids... Is the Shahid dead like other dead, which requires us to offer condolences and mourn with his family, friend and relatives? Or is the Shahid enjoying virtues and the ability to perform miracles, which gives us the right to congratulate the Shahid and his family?... We have the right to congratulate the Shahids' families, and not extend condolences and sorrow of our Shahids, if they [sacrifice themselves] to Allah... But the Shahid is spared the agony of death. This is one of the miracles of the Shahid. Is it not enough that the Shahid weds 72 black eyed [virgins]?... When the Shahid sees the grace of martyrdom and death for the sake of Allah he will wish to return to this world to be killed in it ten times... The Shahid - is it enough for him that he does not feel the blow of the sword or the pain of death or of the killing rather, as one of you feels a [wasp] sting..."

"A young man said to me: 'I am 14 years old, and I have four years left before I blow myself up'... We, the Muslims on this good and blessed land, are all - each one of us - seekers of Martyrdom... The Koran is very clear on this: The greatest enemies of the Islamic nation are the Jews, may Allah fight them... Blessings for whoever assaulted a soldier... Blessings for whoever has raised his sons on the education of Jihad and Martyrdom; blessings for whoever has saved a bullet in order to stick it in a Jew's head..."

"O brother believers, the criminals, the terrorists - are the Jews... They are the ones who must be butchered and killed, as Allah the Almighty said: 'Fight them: Allah will torture them at your hands, and will humiliate them and will help you to overcome them... The Jews are like a [gas] pedal - as long as you step on it with your foot, it doesn't move, but if you lift your foot from it, it hurts you and punishes you. This is the case of the Jews."

"Religion of peace" my ass.

Have the balls to go poke around MEMRI.

Some prime examples of "progressive Islamic thought":

Iranian Daily: 'Extremist Jews Plotting to Assassinate Chirac,' Mossad Agents Behind Najaf Blast

Three Saudi Dailies Publish Government Official's Op-Ed: 'Jews are Masters at Manipulating the Media, Money, World Organizations'

Based on Koranic Verses, Interpretations, and Traditions, Muslim Clerics State: The Jews Are the Descendants of Apes, Pigs, And Other Animals

And of course, there is nothing like the official sermons of the PLO, er, Palestinian Authority, where such great statements are uttered with the full knowledge of the PLO:

"This is the fate that Allah has bestowed upon us, people of Palestine, that we be worthy of struggling and giving our souls on this good and blessed land... Blessings to our Shahids. Blessings to our Shahids who sacrifice their souls easily for the sake of Allah. Blessings to our Shahids who were burned yesterday in their cars" (referring to suicide care bombers, apparently)

And here:

""We tell them: in as much as you love life - the Muslim loves death and martyrdom. There is a great difference between he who loves the hereafter and he who loves this world. The Muslim loves death and [strives for] martyrdom".

"No preacher or sermonizer has right to begin his words without blessing all our Shahids... The Jews cannot influence the actions of our youth and children. But for you, Allah has chosen Shahada... Allah had honored our youth... by choosing you and by choosing from among you the Shahids... Is the Shahid dead like other dead, which requires us to offer condolences and mourn with his family, friend and relatives? Or is the Shahid enjoying virtues and the ability to perform miracles, which gives us the right to congratulate the Shahid and his family?... We have the right to congratulate the Shahids' families, and not extend condolences and sorrow of our Shahids, if they [sacrifice themselves] to Allah... But the Shahid is spared the agony of death. This is one of the miracles of the Shahid. Is it not enough that the Shahid weds 72 black eyed [virgins]?... When the Shahid sees the grace of martyrdom and death for the sake of Allah he will wish to return to this world to be killed in it ten times... The Shahid - is it enough for him that he does not feel the blow of the sword or the pain of death or of the killing rather, as one of you feels a [wasp] sting..."

"A young man said to me: 'I am 14 years old, and I have four years left before I blow myself up'... We, the Muslims on this good and blessed land, are all - each one of us - seekers of Martyrdom... The Koran is very clear on this: The greatest enemies of the Islamic nation are the Jews, may Allah fight them... Blessings for whoever assaulted a soldier... Blessings for whoever has raised his sons on the education of Jihad and Martyrdom; blessings for whoever has saved a bullet in order to stick it in a Jew's head..."

"O brother believers, the criminals, the terrorists - are the Jews... They are the ones who must be butchered and killed, as Allah the Almighty said: 'Fight them: Allah will torture them at your hands, and will humiliate them and will help you to overcome them... The Jews are like a [gas] pedal - as long as you step on it with your foot, it doesn't move, but if you lift your foot from it, it hurts you and punishes you. This is the case of the Jews."

"Religion of peace" my ass.

Have the balls to go poke around MEMRI.

Some prime examples of "progressive Islamic thought":

Iranian Daily: 'Extremist Jews Plotting to Assassinate Chirac,' Mossad Agents Behind Najaf Blast

Three Saudi Dailies Publish Government Official's Op-Ed: 'Jews are Masters at Manipulating the Media, Money, World Organizations'

Based on Koranic Verses, Interpretations, and Traditions, Muslim Clerics State: The Jews Are the Descendants of Apes, Pigs, And Other Animals

And of course, there is nothing like the official sermons of the PLO, er, Palestinian Authority, where such great statements are uttered with the full knowledge of the PLO:

"This is the fate that Allah has bestowed upon us, people of Palestine, that we be worthy of struggling and giving our souls on this good and blessed land... Blessings to our Shahids. Blessings to our Shahids who sacrifice their souls easily for the sake of Allah. Blessings to our Shahids who were burned yesterday in their cars" (referring to suicide care bombers, apparently)

And here:

""We tell them: in as much as you love life - the Muslim loves death and martyrdom. There is a great difference between he who loves the hereafter and he who loves this world. The Muslim loves death and [strives for] martyrdom".

"No preacher or sermonizer has right to begin his words without blessing all our Shahids... The Jews cannot influence the actions of our youth and children. But for you, Allah has chosen Shahada... Allah had honored our youth... by choosing you and by choosing from among you the Shahids... Is the Shahid dead like other dead, which requires us to offer condolences and mourn with his family, friend and relatives? Or is the Shahid enjoying virtues and the ability to perform miracles, which gives us the right to congratulate the Shahid and his family?... We have the right to congratulate the Shahids' families, and not extend condolences and sorrow of our Shahids, if they [sacrifice themselves] to Allah... But the Shahid is spared the agony of death. This is one of the miracles of the Shahid. Is it not enough that the Shahid weds 72 black eyed [virgins]?... When the Shahid sees the grace of martyrdom and death for the sake of Allah he will wish to return to this world to be killed in it ten times... The Shahid - is it enough for him that he does not feel the blow of the sword or the pain of death or of the killing rather, as one of you feels a [wasp] sting..."

"A young man said to me: 'I am 14 years old, and I have four years left before I blow myself up'... We, the Muslims on this good and blessed land, are all - each one of us - seekers of Martyrdom... The Koran is very clear on this: The greatest enemies of the Islamic nation are the Jews, may Allah fight them... Blessings for whoever assaulted a soldier... Blessings for whoever has raised his sons on the education of Jihad and Martyrdom; blessings for whoever has saved a bullet in order to stick it in a Jew's head..."

"O brother believers, the criminals, the terrorists - are the Jews... They are the ones who must be butchered and killed, as Allah the Almighty said: 'Fight them: Allah will torture them at your hands, and will humiliate them and will help you to overcome them... The Jews are like a [gas] pedal - as long as you step on it with your foot, it doesn't move, but if you lift your foot from it, it hurts you and punishes you. This is the case of the Jews."

"Religion of peace" my ass.

You seem to have forgotten about the Boeing 707 fuselage in the desert south of Baghdad, where Iraqi defectors say Saddam trained Al Qaeda terrorists how to highjack planes with small knives.

Movie adaptation(A Knight without a Horse) of the Procotols of the Elders of Zion.

Speaking as a political/history geek rather then as a Computer Geek, Expecting any sort of rational thought out of the governments and media in the middle east is a bit like the Quark Searches... You know it should exist, but it's damn hard to find.

Apparently, in order to get Egyptian commentators to argue in favor of freedom of expression, you have to broadcast a blatantly antisemitic miniseries, complete with Jews plotting world domination with the old Russian "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" forgery.

Well, it's good to know they have some standards.

Pathetic freaks.

The terrorists do have mouthpieces, news outlets, and broadcast what they believe on a regular basis. Even if you don't speak arabic, checking what they say is as easy as typing in a few web searches. Read here for some choice bits.

all reports indicate they are decades away from producing Nukes

Huh? All reports indicate that they are a few months to a couple of years away from producing nukes.

Sigh. I think it's a good war. But that's based on knowing a hell of a lot more stuff than I can put into a posting.

But just because I'll fail is no excuse not to try:

1. Saddam IS so oppressive that we should go in and liberate the country. I know we're all too damn cynical these days to use words like "liberate" but that's the damn reality. Our grandparents weren't too sophisticated to believe that you can liberate a country, but were too damn "smart".

2. The middle east is a fucking hell hole. Saudi Arabia has 1/4 of all of the world's oil and for them it's fucking free, on tap. But the Saudi princes claim to be descendants of Sheikh Muhammad Ibn Abd Al-Wahhab the founder of an Islamist cult that teaches it is the duty of his followers to invade the entire earth, subjugate all infidels and convert by the sword. Guess what the Saudis spend their oil money on? Spreading the good word. That's why oil matters. The Saudis are our enemies, but whenever they raise the price of oil a little our economy completely tanks. We need enough independent sources of oil that we are no longer reliant on our enemies and can put them in their place.

3. In other ways I'll say it again, "the middle east is a fucking hell hole." It's very hard to describe what you'll read if you read Arab newspapers.

It's a constant stream of what, to western eyes, looks like nonsensical hatred and lies about the west, about Americans and about Isralies. Their sense of history is SO screwed, and they really don't consider non-mulsims to be human beings worthy of survival. I hate to bring up the big old German Fuerer again, but he is a hero over there - every now and then you can find an article moaning that it's too bad he didn't get to finish the holocaust.

Anyway the problem is this. Remember Soviet newpapers? They printed nothing but propaganda too, but there's a difference. No one believed Soviet propaganda, not even the folks back in Russia. They were too well educated and Soviet propaganda was dry, it didn't stir up passion.

Arab's are different. They are very poorly educated when they are educated at all (50% illiteracy) and their propaganda is pure passion. The mob wants blood and lots of it.

Despite all the oil, the regular people in the Arab world are very poor, mostly because they're governments are archaic and becase they've rejected everything the rest of the world has learned over the past couple of hundred years - it's absolutely beneath their dignity to learn anything from us non-muslim trash.

But their newspapers have a ready excuse for every failure. It's a conspiracy. They believe that the Jews (and to a lesser but significant extent, the Americans and other westerners) have stolen them blind. It can be funny. When a poorly constructed radio tower in Afganistan blows over in the wind, the authorities say Massad (Israeli intelligence) must have destroyed it. When the date crop in Saudi Arabia doesn't bring good money on the world market, it must be because the Israelis (who's crop is 1/100th the size) must have spitefully undercut their price.

The place is drowning in ignorance, foolishness, oppression, misery and unimaginable violence.

Oh the violence... I'll get to that in a second, but I want to finish my point.

* The people there are living in a closed society. It's not changing from within. They're stuck.

* They're under terrible oppression.

* Because of Militant Islam, the Suadis, Al Qa'eda etc. they're a danger to us. We need to mess with their society so that, in the eyes of 100 million Militant Mulsims and 400 million Militant Muslim sympathizers around the world, modernity, with 3 squares a day, freedom, tolerance, prosparity and peace look better than destroying all infidels for Allah. I know it sounds crazy, but they don't all believe that right now.

We need to shoehorn a good example into the middle east as soon as possible.

I don't know as much about Korea. On thing I keep hearing is that we can't fight on two fronts at once, so Korea gets a temporary pass.

I should write more but I've got to go...

Rocky J. Squirrel

Here's a very old article on why we are attacking Iraq.

The original is no longer available for free on Strategic Forcasting's web site (it costs $120/year to join these days and it's worth it if your rich). So here's a link to a usenet posting of it post

After eight months of searching I've only turned up four sane Arabs. Since I've included all of their web sites this will give you an unrealistic view that of the sanity of Arab society, but these have to go on any list of the best web sites on the Middle east.
Other good sites:
http://www.memri.org/index.html
(best selection of translations from the Arab press)

http://www.mideastweb.org/LessonofIraq.htm
(other articles by Mahamad Mosaad)
http://www.mideastweb.org/arabpeacenow.htm
http://www.mideastweb.org/Arabpeace.htm
http://www.mideastweb.org/nothinghappened.htm
http://www.mideastweb.org/onlythem.htm

http://www.danielpipes.org

http://www.amarji.org/index.htm

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/articles.php3?ty pe=1
(this should be their translations of the arab press)

Tarek Heggy (Egyptian writer)
http://www.heggy.org
turn down your sound card before
going there

Ali Salem (an Egyptian writer and playwrite).
My favorite articles so far are at
http://www.meforum.org/pf.php?id=130 ,
http://sol.spaceports.com/~melinks/site2/ali_salem .html and
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/terrorism/july-dec0 1/playwright_11-27.html

You can also look up Arab newspapers with english translations on Google Web Directory under newspapers. There's one fake Saudi newspaper to look out for. The editor lives and writes in California if that tells you anything.

"Thus, the Jews are accursed - the Jews of our time, those who preceded them and those who will come after them, if any Jews come after them."

"With regard to the fraud of the Holocaust... Many French studies have proven that this is no more than a fabrication, a lie, and a fraud!! That is, it is a 'scenario' the plot of which was carefully tailored, using several faked photos completely unconnected to the truth. Yes, it is a film, no more and no less. Hitler himself, whom they accuse of Nazism, is in my eyes no more than a modest 'pupil' in the world of murder and bloodshed. He is completely innocent of the charge of frying them in the hell of his false Holocaust!!"

"The entire matter, as many French and British scientists and researchers have proven, is nothing more than a huge Israeli plot aimed at extorting the German government in particular and the European countries in general. But I, personally and in light of this imaginary tale, complain to Hitler, even saying to him from the bottom of my heart, 'If only you had done it, brother, if only it had really happened, so that the world could sigh in relief [without] their evil and sin.'"

Except that yes, they do say that. If I have been reading different newspapers than you, it is because I make a point of checking out what the Arabic media is actually saying. See MEMRI for translations (a number of other groups have verified these translations, not least the New York Times), or see the english-language versions of various Arab papers (though several of them are much less extremist in english than in arabic).

Don't forget the Bin Laden tapes, either. Someone who is still complaining about the `tragedy of Andalusia (spain, 1492)' is not mad because of current US policy. Someone who considers the nature of US society to be evil is not making a policy judgement.

Of course, there is still the very real fact that the Islamic extremists ARE deranged...

To pick just one example, here is a column that appeared in Egypt's official state newspaper. As you read it, keep in mind that this is not some guy passing out propaganda on the street, but the Egyptian Government Daily Al-Akhbar.

http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=countries&A rea=egypt&ID=SP37502

Sure, it is always easy to write something which looks superficially like a parallel situation. I just hope people recognize the humor and do not confuse fiction and reality.

While I agree with you that the U.S. has done some questionable and downright shitty things to many folks around the globe, part of the problem is also the lack of freedom of the press in much of the middle east. The Middle East Media and Research Institute has a large collection of translated newspaper artlicles, from the region, which shed light on some of the anger directed at the U.S. and it's allies. There is a lot of anti-US propaganda, comprised of blatant lies, that is being fed to the people of the muslim world (at least those living under religious dictatorships or in kingdoms, like Saudia Arabia and Iran).