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How do those people explain mules? Or any of the other creatures listed here: http://www.messybeast.com/genetics/hybrid-equines.htm

Thing is, cats *aren't* domesticated. They only pretend to be when it suits their purposes.

Of course they're domesticated. Don't be an ass.

Domesticated dogs and horses take their instructions from human masters. Cats, as a rule, don't.

Only becase their owners can't be bothered or are too stupid to realize it's quite easy.

I've owned five cats in my life, and three dogs, and as a general rule there's nothing preventing you from training a cat to "take instruction" (although it's possible to find untrainable cats, just like you can find untrainable dogs.)

A dog is a social animal. His whole life is focused around *you*. A cat is altogether a different beast.

No. Cats form sophisticated social structures similar to, but distinct from dogs. They are social creatures. Just because the majority of cat owners are elitist asses who don't want to acknowledge this doesn't make it false.

A cat does what it wants, when it wants. You can try to teach it stuff, but as a rule the cat doesn't cooperate, so you can never really be sure what it's learned and what it hasn't.

*sigh* Could you please provide some scientific backing for your claims?

In Heliconius butterflies genes have leaked from one species into another through hybridisation. Heliconius hybrids are relatively common and are a long way from the biology textbook stereotype of a sterile and deformed hybrid. These hybrids can successfully breed with either parental species or with other hybrids. However, there is natural selection against hybrids. Pure-bred Heliconius butterflies have warning colouration recognised by predators. The hybrids, equally unpalatable, have an intermediate pattern which is not recognised - the predators have not yet adapted and so the hybrids are disadvantaged.

Not mammals, but I'm not even sure orcs are.

No - they'll become Aethists instead:

http://www.messybeast.com/dragonqueen/aeth.htm

Rob

so are cats

from: http://www.messybeast.com/emoticat.html

"SO - DO THEY HAVE FEELINGS?

Cats and other animals have feelings. However their feelings must be interpreted in the context of their own physical needs and their own environment. They have a more limited range of feelings than humans and their reaction to environmental stimuli is different to humans, but they show many responses indicative of emotions.

Although I have used the term "programmed", to reduce cats to little more than pre-programmed machines with a finite set of available reactions would be wrong. Those who deny that cats, or other animals, are entirely lacking in feelings do this to justify their own treatment of animals rather than through any true understanding of those animals. Rather than attribute full human feelings to cats, it is better to understand how cats perceive the world and to adjust our behaviour to accommodate their physical and emotional needs as best we can."

You're right rabbits had a big impact. But I'm right too. http://www.messybeast.com/ausdilemma.htm

Also: "In Australia the term feral cat refers to cats living and breeding entirely in the wild. Significant populations of wildlife in Australia, including marsupials, reptiles, and birds, poorly adapted to this efficient predator, have allowed the establishment of stable populations across most of the country." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral_cat

Cats are also generally despised and must be licensed according to a friend fresh from a New Zealand/Australia trip, which is second hand hearsay for what its worth.

Quoting without attribution or even any indication that it is a quote is plagiarism. 404.

No, I can't back any of that up with evidence, yes, I know that makes my post meaningless,

many scientists have avoided the issue of animal emotions by putting quote marks around words such as "nervous" or "fearful". This indicated that the animals acted as if they felt those emotions, but they did not actually have those emotions and the attribution of emotions was therefore anthropomorphic on the part of the scientific observer, hence the quote marks.

One of the most obvious animal emotions is pleasure. It is evident when your cat snuggles up purring and when it plays. Although play is an important part of learning and honing life skills in youngsters, it is quite obviously also fun otherwise adult cats wouldn't bother playing. There is some evidence that playing, or at least the physical exertion aspect of play, releases "feel-good" hormones in the brain, giving a sense of wellbeing. When rats play, their brains release dopamine, a neurochemical associated with pleasure and excitement. When a rat anticipates a play session, dopamine is released, making it active, vocal and excited (the effect of this can be seen by dosing rats with dopamine-blockers). Happy rats also produce opiates, another feel-good neurochemical.

Regarding hybrids;

Did a little googling over my lunch hour; thought you might be interested in this. Very fascinating. A ways down the page is a description of some bobcat hybrids found in the SD area in the '50s. Apparently the female in one case was actually fertile! Makes one wonder how close in time domestics and some of the smaller wild species are related. (There had to be some point in time in the past where they diverged; at least millions of years ago tho)

Tir didn't have a stub tail like the article mentions, but he does fit a lot of the other parts of the description. (Wish I'd had this info available ten+ y.o.- back then I thought hybrids were probably pretty common)

Sounds to me like Dust and Skunk were good buddies. Obviously the collar keeps the memory alive for him. (Some) cats do seem to have very good memories - Pook is one. Out of the several vets she's visited, the only one she likes is the one who spayed her - that vet worked out of her home and was a real kind person and animal lover. T'was the only time I saw Pook actually rubbing up to a vet!

What kind of "tromping around" was he doing? I can't visualize it except as a cat doing a goosestep sort of thing :)

"Cat in a Sack" - hee! That's a strange one.

Very interesting about SoCal cats. More Siamese makes sense, given the human demographics (*grin*). I've heard that about Siamese - and Bandit has Siamese genes in him; among other things (calico of some sort also, given his markings, but he's hard to figure - although he definitely inherited some hyperness from somewhere)

WRT to what we're talking about here, is hermaphroditism (sp-argh) genetic or simply the result of wildly varying hormone levels during development? I have to admit I've forgotten most of what I learned about genetics in mammals over the years. Not even related to my fields, so to say.

Hambly is one of my over-all favorite authors. Her ability to change genres is utterly amazing. I'm behind on the B.J. books, I have Fever Season here but haven't read it yet. Abishag Shaw...I can't ever remember his name either! ;0- Her Time of the Dark series of books remain my favorites of hers, however. From everything I've heard, Ms. Hambly is also a cat person...

Cheers!
SB

Considering some of the stuff humans have done with selective breeding, creating four-assed monkeys would be relatively kind.

Ha! Maybe yours doesn't. As for mine, we're teaching it to play XBox.

Extra toes on cats aren't all that rare around Boston, where I live.