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Race and Racism In Video Games

SlappingOysters writes "Racism in video games has been a key topic of discussion in the game industry this year, thanks in large part to the controversy surrounding the Resident Evil 5 launch trailer. In this article, GamePlayer speaks to developers, publishers, activists and journalists about the issue to get various perspectives and insights into how the video game industry is moving forward on the topic of racism. A related piece also has interviews with Sue Clark from the UK's Classification Board and Dr. Griseldis Kirsch, a lecturer in Contemporary Japanese Studies, about how racism in video games is viewed by the BBFC and Japan respectively."

371 comments

  1. It could have been worse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    At least Resident Evil 5 doesn't take place in Raccoon Country.

    1. Re:It could have been worse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No its just in coon country now.

    2. Re:It could have been worse by giantweevil · · Score: 2, Funny

      It doesn't matter, we still can't stop there.

      Worse than bat country, goddamn.

      --
      Disregard the above.
  2. My education by HungWeiLo · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Games that defined my view of the races in my youth:

    Mike Tyson's Punch-Out
    Street Fighter series

    As a side note - my first American television show was Dukes of Hazzard. Followed, I think, by a re-run of Jeopardy. I was confused.

    --
    There are a huge number of yeast infections in this county. Probably because we're downriver from the bread factory.
    1. Re:My education by reginaldo · · Score: 5, Informative

      SO Brazilians are green skinned monsters that can create electric fields to you? Cooool.

    2. Re:My education by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Brazilians are people who go on MMORPGs and beg everyone else for GIB MONIE PLZ NO I REPORT U huahuehuahuehuahuehuehauheuhue

    3. Re:My education by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They decided to go with Mike Tyson's Punch-Out at the last minute because some C-level morons thought that another Nintendo game -- Rodney King's Beat-Off -- wasn't marketable. I don't get it; I guess that's why I'm not in marketing.

    4. Re:My education by pizzach · · Score: 4, Funny

      Games that defined my view of the races in my youth: Mike Tyson's Punch-Out Street Fighter series As a side note - my first American television show was Dukes of Hazzard. Followed, I think, by a re-run of Jeopardy. I was confused.

      The irony about this post? Both games mentioned have a character modeled to look like Mike Tyson. Not a great example of how either stereotype black people. In the Japanese version of Street Fighter, Mike is actually called Mike to boot.

      I hope that helped you, Liu Kang HungWeiLo.

      --
      Once you start despising the jerks, you become one.
    5. Re:My education by BlueCollarCamel · · Score: 1

      Hung Way Low..?

      --
      1&1 - Cheap domain and web hosting.
    6. Re:My education by CrazyJim1 · · Score: 1

      Thats not the worst part. Its tough picking up the ladies anymore. How is a man supposed to compete with what men from India can do with their bodies?

    7. Re:My education by pizzach · · Score: 1

      Look at the parent poster's name. I should have written HungWeiLo MaiAss.

      --
      Once you start despising the jerks, you become one.
    8. Re:My education by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Brazilians are people who go on MMORPGs and beg everyone else for GIB MONIE PLZ NO I REPORT U huahuehuahuehuahuehuehauheuhue

      Even though I'm brazilian myself, I have to agree it's a precise description. ;)

  3. Remember kids by QuantumG · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's ok to celebrate the variation and uniqueness of fictional races, like elves and hobbits and orcs, but you can never think about the differences between real races.

    --
    How we know is more important than what we know.
    1. Re:Remember kids by Kral_Blbec · · Score: 5, Informative

      to be pedantic.... elves, hobbits and orcs are different species.

    2. Re:Remember kids by MightyYar · · Score: 5, Funny

      Best... pedant... ever.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    3. Re:Remember kids by QuantumG · · Score: 5, Informative

      Turn in your nerd card.

      "The lands of Middle-earth are populated by Men (humans) and other humanoid races (Hobbits, Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs), as well as many other creatures, both real and fantastic (Ents, Wargs, Balrogs, Trolls, etc.)."

      Tolkien defines.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    4. Re:Remember kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's because elves live for a thousand years and dwarves have darkvision.

      So-called "races" don't have intrinsic differences.

    5. Re:Remember kids by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      but you can never think about the differences between real races

      What you said applies more to cultures, not "races". The term "race" is a non-scientific circular reference:
      1. Arbitrarily define "black" people as having broad facial features, dark skin, and recent African descent.
      2. "Celebrate" these people for their "differences", which you just invented to categorize them.

      This works for any "race".

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    6. Re:Remember kids by MagusSlurpy · · Score: 0

      He is even better than Pedant Bear!

      --
      My sister opened a computer store in Hawaii. She sells C shells by the seashore.
    7. Re:Remember kids by philspear · · Score: 1

      ...you can never think about the differences between real races.

      What's that got to do with anything? I was under the impression that RE5 was under attack because you were firing shotgun blasts into herds of zombies who happened to look a lot like black people.

    8. Re:Remember kids by Shados · · Score: 1

      Are they? I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that species were classified in accordance to their breeding compatibility... and in most fantasy settings, you can have half elves and half orcs, for example, which are made from mixing these with humans, so you end up with a messed up circular-species-alike situation, where you have A, B and C, A and B can breed, A and C can too, but B and C cannot... what a pain!

    9. Re:Remember kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      He defines wrong. "Elf" is a race as much as "neanderthal" is.

    10. Re:Remember kids by Rakishi · · Score: 1

      Humanoid != human

    11. Re:Remember kids by QuantumG · · Score: 3, Informative

      Seeing as there were half elf, half humans in LOTR, I say you're wrong.

      Species can't interbreed, that's the definition of species. Therefore, they're races.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    12. Re:Remember kids by Shados · · Score: 4, Funny

      That's because elves live for a thousand years and dwarves have darkvision.

      So-called "races" don't have intrinsic differences.

      Are you sure about that? Look at the percentage of south africans and chinese who are lactose intolerant, and asians who are near sighted.

      So well...

      Race: Caucasian
      No stat bonus or penalty
      Racial ability at level 1: Able to see more than 3 feets away without contacts.
      Racial ability at level 3: can digest milk even after reaching level 4

      The caucasian also has -1 * Charisma modifier to the "Humility" skill.

    13. Re:Remember kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Elves are just humans with pretty faces and pointed ears. Prove me wrong.

    14. Re:Remember kids by QuantumG · · Score: 1

      Unlike every other category which is manna from heaven is it? Every word is "arbitrary".. that's what words are.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    15. Re:Remember kids by MicktheMech · · Score: 1

      I can't think of any rpg/fantasy world where half-elves are sterile. This implies different phenotypes of the same species.

    16. Re:Remember kids by QuantumG · · Score: 1

      The issue of race in games existed long before this latest zombie fest.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    17. Re:Remember kids by L0stm4n · · Score: 1

      Yeah funny black people in Africa. Whodathunkit?

      --
      superman runs linux
    18. Re:Remember kids by Ghubi · · Score: 1

      to be even more pedantic... the term humanoid merely implies 2 arms 2 legs 1 head etc. doesn't mean they are members of the same species. GP is correct. Comparing Elves to hobbits is more like comparing monkeys to gorillas than comparing different races of humans.

    19. Re:Remember kids by Cocoa+Radix · · Score: 1

      I don't remember anybody caring about doing the same exact thing to hordes of Hispanic zombies/evil mutations in RE4. And, naturally, killing hordes of white zombies in all of the RE games before that was perfectly acceptable.

      How long until the first black Jack Thompson comes along and tries to convince us that RE5, among other games, will promote the senseless and widespread killing of blacks?

    20. Re:Remember kids by Nazlfrag · · Score: 1

      What of half-elves and half-orcs then? There must be a common ancestor, hence they are at most of different genus.

    21. Re:Remember kids by Kuukai · · Score: 3, Informative
      --
      Sendou Wave Kick!!
    22. Re:Remember kids by Ortega-Starfire · · Score: 1

      This is not true. Science fiction states otherwise.

      --
      ---- Liquid was a patriot ----
    23. Re:Remember kids by Seraphim1982 · · Score: 3, Informative

      It doesn't count as successful interbreeding unless you can produce fertile offspring. Male Liger's are not fertile.

    24. Re:Remember kids by ozphx · · Score: 1

      Yes they do. Check your anti-discrimination laws - they will have provisions for health insurers to discriminate based on race.

      --
      3laws: No freebies, no backsies, GTFO.
    25. Re:Remember kids by ozphx · · Score: 3, Funny

      The thing that struck me most about Farcry 2, being set in Africa, was the lack of black dudes. To be frank I found it hilarious that someone had decided that they needed an even mix of races to avoid the game "being about shooting black guys".

      I mean seriously, is everyone really that jacked up about all these perceived slights on their race?

      --
      3laws: No freebies, no backsies, GTFO.
    26. Re:Remember kids by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      Every word is "arbitrary".. that's what words are.

      But we're not talking about words - I wasn't saying that the word "race" was arbitrary. I was saying that the categorization is arbitrary. Aborigines look pretty darned similar to certain Africans in many respects and one could be forgiven for thinking that they are the same "race". But, of course, that would be absurd since they are even further apart genetically, geographically, and culturally than "whites" and "blacks".

      People go out of their way to try to categorize people by race, when the whole concept is rendered completely useless by people like Tiger Woods.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    27. Re:Remember kids by chrb · · Score: 1

      Not really. Some words have specific defined definitions. Race is not clearly defined. If it were, then people wouldn't be arguing about whether Barack Obama is black or not. And if you think that's crazy, wait until you see the Wikipedia discussions...

    28. Re:Remember kids by JoshJ · · Score: 2, Informative

      Well, in Tolkien's mythos the Orcs were Moriquendi (Dark Elves) that Morgoth captured and twisted to create a new race; because he could not create anything of his own but could only pervert the creations of Iluvatar.

    29. Re:Remember kids by Kuukai · · Score: 1
      From http://www.messybeast.com/genetics/new-species.htm

      In Heliconius butterflies genes have leaked from one species into another through hybridisation. Heliconius hybrids are relatively common and are a long way from the biology textbook stereotype of a sterile and deformed hybrid. These hybrids can successfully breed with either parental species or with other hybrids. However, there is natural selection against hybrids. Pure-bred Heliconius butterflies have warning colouration recognised by predators. The hybrids, equally unpalatable, have an intermediate pattern which is not recognised - the predators have not yet adapted and so the hybrids are disadvantaged.

      Not mammals, but I'm not even sure orcs are.

      --
      Sendou Wave Kick!!
    30. Re:Remember kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not "half-elves" as you might think. I seem to remember they had the choice to be one or the other. There was magic involved. It's complicated?

    31. Re:Remember kids by Kuukai · · Score: 1

      Oh, in that case see my parallel post.

      --
      Sendou Wave Kick!!
    32. Re:Remember kids by chrb · · Score: 1

      Speaking of which, I'm surprised the editor didn't link to Jade is black? and the previous discussion here.

    33. Re:Remember kids by dissy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What's that got to do with anything? I was under the impression that RE5 was under attack because you were firing shotgun blasts into herds of zombies who happened to look a lot like black people.

      I guess that means those same people complaining about that pretty much lost their right to complain, after not standing up for racism against white people in resident evil 1-3, and the racism against whites and Hispanics in #4.

      If they are OK with racism against those groups, they have no moral ground to complain about the exact same things towards their particular group.

      Personally, I'm having a very hard time seeing what their complaint is.
      If it is for what you say, it does not make sense. Even if it isn't, no other aspects of it makes sense either.

    34. Re:Remember kids by Xiroth · · Score: 1

      It's ok to celebrate the variation and uniqueness of fictional races, like elves and hobbits and orcs, but you can never think about the differences between real races.

      Yeah, there is that. The fact is that it's entirely possible (even likely) that there are genetic differences between the races above and beyond their physical characteristics. But you know what? While I'm usually all in favour of more knowledge, in this case I think we're probably better off not knowing. Whenever there are differences, people try to assert superiority and inferiority on the basis of them, and we've seen far too many examples of people behaving very, very badly when that excuse is available. If there are differences brain-wise between the races, they're not particularly massive as there are examples of each of the races in just about any occupation of level of education you'd care to mention, so I'd say that it's probably best to simply leave the question alone.

    35. Re:Remember kids by philspear · · Score: 1

      I don't remember anybody caring about doing the same exact thing to hordes of Hispanic zombies/evil mutations in RE4. And, naturally, killing hordes of white zombies in all of the RE games before that was perfectly acceptable.

      Stay focused: the OP was saying something about real differences between races, I was saying that's not what the RE5 controversey was about at all.

      I do have to say on your point that there is, in fact, a difference between a white guy shooting a crowd of white/ european zombies and a white guy shooting a crowd of black zombies. Kids are idiots, I don't think it's that far out there that if a kid plays games where he's shooting black people and doesn't run into many in real life, he's going to think less of them. Note that is just a hypothesis, one I don't agree with just that it's not as simple and absurd as you're making it out to be.

      As for Jack Thompson and censorship, are you really worried about that? Jack Thompson is making sure that videogames never get censored, and that censorship will continue to be seen as ridiculous. Furthermore, I don't think it's at all realistic that videogames are going to be censored or banned, there's too much money at stake. Anyway, what they're talking about is age-restrictions. At the risk of being modded down, I'm going to say that's an acceptable compromise compared to censorship, though probably I'd object to it more if I were younger.

    36. Re:Remember kids by Repton · · Score: 1

      There were very few man-elf unions in Tolkien (Luthien and Beren, Earendil and Elwing, Tuor and Idril; I think that's the lot). Basically, as I recall, Illuvatar had to make a special exception, and the offspring had to decide which kindred they belonged to. Thus, Elros and Elrond were both half-elven, but while Elrond chose to live with the elves (and thus survives in _Lord of the Rings_), his brother Elros choose to be a man, and die (though he lived very long).

      It's not clear whether hobbits are truly a different species from Men. Tolkien wrote: "It is plain indeed that in spite of later estrangement Hobbits are relatives of ours: far nearer to us than Elves, or even than Dwarves. Of old they spoke the languages of Men, after their own fashion, and liked and disliked much the same things as Men did. But what exactly our relationship is can no longer be discovered." It seems clear that the powers (Valar, Melkor) did not create them, thus the only real possibility is that either Illuvatar created them as a short species of Man, or they evolved over the years. But there were probably not enough years, so I guess the former.

      --
      Repton.
      They say that only an experienced wizard can do the tengu shuffle.
    37. Re:Remember kids by eosp · · Score: 2, Funny

      Elrond doesn't have a pretty face. QED.

    38. Re:Remember kids by Repton · · Score: 4, Informative

      Tolkien was unclear on the nature of orcs. The problem is that Melkor could not simply create them, the way Aule did the dwarves, because Aule needed Illuvatar to intercede and give the dwarves life, and he was hardly likele to do that with Melkor. Tolkien appears to have advanced several possibilities:

      Firstly, presented in _The Silmarilion_, is the idea that orcs are corruptions of elves. Melkor captured elves (and, later, men), twisted and wrecked them, and ended up with orcs. Possibly there may have been corrupted maia amongst them too, as leaders and spies.

      Secondly, that orcs were not "thinking peoples", like elves/men/dwarves; rather they were intelligent beasts in man-shape, of the same theological status as wargs, the talking ravens in _The Hobbit_, as (perhaps) the great eagles, etc.

      Thirdly, a variant on the preceding: orcs are beasts, but infused with the dispersed power of Melkor, giving them the ability for independent action. The spirit of Melkor is one of hate, thus orcs will fight amongst themselves, rebel (especially against Sauron or Saruman, neither of whom is Melkor).

      Ref: http://www.thetolkienwiki.org/wiki.cgi?The__Origin__of__Orcs

      --
      Repton.
      They say that only an experienced wizard can do the tengu shuffle.
    39. Re:Remember kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Celebrate" these people for their "differences", which you just invented to categorize them.

      No, those differences were not "invented" they are (statistically) real and they are the basis for the classification.

    40. Re:Remember kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Every word is "arbitrary".. that's what words are.

      But we're not talking about words - I wasn't saying that the word "race" was arbitrary. I was saying that the categorization is arbitrary. Aborigines look pretty darned similar to certain Africans in many respects and one could be forgiven for thinking that they are the same "race". But, of course, that would be absurd since they are even further apart genetically, geographically, and culturally than "whites" and "blacks".

      People go out of their way to try to categorize people by race, when the whole concept is rendered completely useless by people like Tiger Woods.

      Point 1) We don't use black anymore, we use African. This is both PC and more accurate since it clarifies the difference between african "blacks" and native Australian "blacks".

      2) I hate people like you. Or rather the ignorance that you spread. There are hereditary diseases, GENETIC diseases such as the heart condition specific to the Irish. Thus, there is a race known as the "Irish".

      To simplify, consider that race is being used as you might use the term "breed" for dogs. Great danes and not-so-great beagles (sorry Snoopy) can mate and reproduce. They are the same SPECIES, but not the same breed or race.

      As far as the games go, elves and humans can breed*: they are both humanoid races and thus the same species.

      * Screw the donkey/mule/liger/tion arguments, they don't help anyone who doesn't know them and geneticists already know the difference.

    41. Re:Remember kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It doesn't count as successful interbreeding unless you can produce fertile offspring. Male Liger's are not fertile.

      Posting anonymously because I don't want this to come back to haunt me.

      What about humans with Down's Syndrome? By your definition they're about as human as a liger or tigon is a lion or a tiger.

      I shit you not, pondering this very question has kept me up more than 1 night. If the answer is, by definition, yes, that they are effectively removed from the human species, due to their genetic abnormality and sterility, would aborting them in utero constitute the ending of a human life? Since it wasn't human, by definition, would it not be eugenics?

    42. Re:Remember kids by my+$anity++0 · · Score: 1

      I think the basic point is, fuck categories like this when they end up getting people hurt. Or killed.

    43. Re:Remember kids by AnonGCB · · Score: 2, Insightful

      ^This^ 10000 X this. Tired of the damn double standard.

      --
      http://CryoLANparty.com/ A lan I'm staff on!
    44. Re:Remember kids by localman · · Score: 1

      Yeah, that's because there aren't differences between real races. That's the point.

      I am fully aware that by percentage you can correlate certain traits with certain races. And thus when speaking in gross generalities you can say "blacks are this way, whites are that way, asians are another way", etc. But the fact is that it's almost always a useless exercise, serving no purpose other than to help simplify a complex world at the expense of understanding that people are _individuals_ and nobody is bound by their race.

      Yeah, I know all the examples you can point to of races having tendencies. And I can find exceptions to every case. Ask yourself what your point is.

      Cheers.

    45. Re:Remember kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      You're just being racist against orcs!

      They deserve equal rights and should not be forced to slave away in the Mines of Mordor without being compensated with 40 virgates and a fell beast.

    46. Re:Remember kids by MightyYar · · Score: 0

      Citation needed.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    47. Re:Remember kids by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      Point 1) We don't use black anymore, we use African.

      Who is "we"? In the US we say either "black" or "African American". Black is better if you don't know someone's nationality, since calling a Caribbean or African person "African-American" is silly.

      2) I hate people like you.

      Oh, no!

      There are hereditary diseases, GENETIC diseases such as the heart condition specific to the Irish. Thus, there is a race known as the "Irish".

      Huh? The Irish race? Wow.

      Look, that's a perfect example of why race is pretty much worthless. I have some Irish in me, I think. I also have some Scandinavian, English, Scottish, German, Dutch... Christ, just test me for everything.

      To simplify, consider that race is being used as you might use the term "breed" for dogs.

      But breeds are only kept "pure" by insanely tenacious breeders. In fact, "pure bred" dogs have all sorts of ailments and inbreeding problems that "mutts" don't have. Humans, having no breeders, tend not to be so "pure bred". Certainly you have some extreme examples like pygmies. But they are more the exception rather than the rule - and small stature seems to develop independently whenever resources are scarce and the population isolated.

      As far as the games go, elves and humans can breed*: they are both humanoid races and thus the same species.

      Elves are pretend.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    48. Re:Remember kids by Kral_Blbec · · Score: 1

      Wow, insightful???

      I was going for a funny mod.

    49. Re:Remember kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah and if it wasn't for Jack Chick, do you really think Hasbro would've bought out WotC who'd bought D&D, and whore it to a new media-centric batch of stupid rich kids to pay out the nose to play with their friends while dressing up as satanic individuals and using peer pressure to make their friends commit suicide in between their acts against god?

      I mean C'mon, the Jacks are the best thing to happen to us ever! :)

    50. Re:Remember kids by bsDaemon · · Score: 0

      pedantophiles make me sick.

    51. Re:Remember kids by MaskedSlacker · · Score: 1

      That's lemurs to pygmy chimpanzees you insensitive clod!

    52. Re:Remember kids by fractoid · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Ever heard of a quarter-orc?

      --
      Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
    53. Re:Remember kids by jasen666 · · Score: 1

      Mules are another example.

      Now, I don't remember if it was ever mentioned whether elf-human hybrids were fertile or not. Maybe they weren't.
      Seeing as it's fiction though, do we really care?

    54. Re:Remember kids by pa-ching · · Score: 1

      Have you read Terry Pratchett's Thud! ?

    55. Re:Remember kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You suck...and are not funny.

      Quote something else for the next few months.

    56. Re:Remember kids by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      Everything you just said, plus:

      If your "scientific" classification system can't account for Tiger Woods or Barack Obama, then it's broken.

      The last time I typed that, someone came along and claimed that they weren't "natural" and so the system didn't have to account for them... lol.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    57. Re:Remember kids by fractoid · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This is actually a good question. Defining humanity on the basis of pure genetics is a very bad way to go about it, because you exclude possible new human-type things that deserve human rights. Say if your Down's Syndrome child instead had some heretofore unknown mutation that made them super-intelligent but unlikely to successfully breed with fully human parents?

      The answer, which no-one is going to like, is that we need to base these things at least partly on ability rather than genetics or (worse yet) some arbitrarily fabricated 'divine right'. And that means either making the bar low enough to include even your not-too-bright cousin Henry (and affording human rights to dolphins and chimpanzees), or setting it high enough to exclude all animals and opening cousin Henry up to use in live animal testing.

      It'd probably end up being an either-or "is of human stock or can demonstrate human-level intelligence". The rules are different for us, sure, but that's because we make them. Even then, I'm sure that the requirements for being a human-rights-deserving entity will be relaxed as time passes. Remember, 'human rights' are a pretty new idea and in the past at various times have been denied to women, children, brown people, red people, yellow people and probably most categories that at some stage have fitted into "are weaker or less numerous than us".

      --
      Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
    58. Re:Remember kids by fractoid · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Secondly, that orcs were not "thinking peoples", like elves/men/dwarves; rather they were intelligent beasts in man-shape, of the same theological status as wargs, the talking ravens in _The Hobbit_, as (perhaps) the great eagles, etc.

      If they're intelligent beasts that can talk, I'd say that's pretty good evidence that they can think. And if they can think, doesn't that make them people?

      --
      Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
    59. Re:Remember kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think what he meant to say was "to produce fertile offspring"

    60. Re:Remember kids by Opyros · · Score: 1

      Sure they were — e.g. Elrond was just such a hybrid and he had two sons and a daughter. His brother Elros was the ancestor of all the kings of Numenor (and the kings of Arnor and Gondor, including Aragorn). And their own parents, Earendil and Elwing, were also "Half-elven".

    61. Re:Remember kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course there are exceptions to the average. However, averages rule the day.

      Why do you think white flight happens? It happens because when blacks, as a group, move into a neighborhood, they bring their crime and poverty with them.

      The minority of outstanding achievers among them do not compensate for the "averageness" of the entire group.

    62. Re:Remember kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What are you rambling on about?

      Talking about group averages takes well into account that there will be people outside the norm.

      People on the left or right side of the curve do not invalidate the fact that the peak of the bell curve is in the middle, where most people are.

      Tiger Woods and Barack Obama are not even fully black. They're half-breeds, at best.

    63. Re:Remember kids by ShakaUVM · · Score: 1

      >>I was saying that the categorization is arbitrary.

      To a certain extent, yes, but when you can identify people's race solely by DNA analysis (which you can -- reports to the contrary are wrong, usually only looking at one gene locus instead of multiple), it has a meaning. In other words, if stats can separate two populations by whatever means (say, sickle-cell rates), then the populations are indeed distinct, regardless of politically correct inspired hatred of "labels" to the contrary.

    64. Re:Remember kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So we're better off being ignorant instead of educated? But I thought racism was the product of ignorance. Or at least, that is what I was told during school.

      Anyway, racial differences are not akin to racial superiority.

    65. Re:Remember kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What citation do you need to show that people who are genetically similar to one another (i.e. a race) tend to look alike and have identifiable characteristics of similarity?

      Are you that imbecilic?

      I mean, the studies are out there to prove this, but why should I have to dig up mountains of research just to prove an obvious biological fact that applies to a simple study of animals and plants?

    66. Re:Remember kids by Collapsing+Empire · · Score: 1

      Obama's mixed-race ancestry does not invalidate the concept of races from the point of view that Caucasians and Blacks are two branches of humans who separated off from a parent group a loooong time ago and stayed separated long enough to develop traits / adaptations to the individual climates and geographies they encountered to become differentiated from each other.

      If I mix two pigments of paint, would you say that invalidates the concept of pigments because you can't quite tell which color it is?

      Please!

    67. Re:Remember kids by shma · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Look at all these hybrid animals!

      Tigons and ligers and...bears? Oh my!

      --
      I came here for a good argument
    68. Re:Remember kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If RE5 has to be changed to remove some black looking polygons and mix in more 'white', I think the entire series of Dynasty Warriors should be abolished as well. Killing hundreds of mongoloid people (In this case, specifically Chinese) in each level, with no caucasoids or negroids in sight.

      Especially for a game from KOEI, a studio based in Japan (where there is/was much discord between Chinese and Japanese over the course of history)

      Why doesn't the Chinese kill fest get press like the RE5 in Africa one? Political Correctness is so completely absurd. I'm not for racial slurs or anything, and having and ensuring equal rights is great, but people, minorities, majorities, everyone, should just hurry up and get over being offended by stupid things. Overt racism is bad, but a game in Africa that has African people in it, or a game about the Romance of the Three Kingdoms (In China, gasp!) has Chinese.

      PS: Just pointed out DW series as a sarcastic example of taking RE5 problem too far.

    69. Re:Remember kids by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      2) I hate people like you. Or rather the ignorance that you spread. There are hereditary diseases, GENETIC diseases such as the heart condition specific to the Irish. Thus, there is a race known as the "Irish".

      Correlation is not causation, ever heard of that?

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    70. Re:Remember kids by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      okay then
      swordtails, platys, variable platys are all different species. they interbreed and produce fertile offsprings very well. too well actually. i started with exactly this combination (a swordtail, a platy and a variable platy) and a well planted 350 liter fish tank and after that i have given away over 200 fishes of different sizes and colours, with and without swords, all fertile, every three months.

      even now you can find their offspring in every ruhr area pet shop.

      rabbits are sore losers.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    71. Re:Remember kids by philspear · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I guess that means those same people complaining about that pretty much lost their right to complain, after not standing up for racism against white people in resident evil 1-3, and the racism against whites and Hispanics in #4.

      As I said to the previous guy, the OP was talking about racial differences being taboo, which is not at all what the objections were about in the case of RE5. I only brought up the controversy about RE5 because QuantumG was basically off-topic.

      Also as I said to the previous response, it's really not the same. A white guy shooting white people is not racist, whereras a white guy shooting black people could be construed as racist. Again, I don't endorse that view, and think it's wrong, but overreacting to it doesn't help our side any.

      I don't think anyone was going on TV and demanding that the game be boycotted and "THINK OF THE CHILDREN!" All the comments about the trailer, at least that I read, appeared to be honest concerns by GAMERS, not rabble rousing, attention whoring, or trying to sell a book about a new societal evil. The tone of the objections was quite respectful and rational. By contrast, the gamer response has been anything but. Stop trying to cast these people as hypocrites, and stop mischaracterizing their concerns. They're not trying to take away your rights to buy the game, don't get so defensive. At best, this makes gamers look immature (which maybe we are.) At worst, it erodes sympathy for gamers and someone decides to get serious about regulating videogame content.

    72. Re:Remember kids by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      Perhaps the problem is that there are too many *independent* genetic features to classify humans into any small number of "races"? Two humans "looking alike and having identifiable characteristics of similarity" can easily be more genetically dissimilar than two humans "not looking alike". "Looking alike", unfortunately, is not enough to claim that two people are genetically close. Many people wished this to be true a century ago, but they were proven wrong by mountains of research you are talking about. :-)

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    73. Re:Remember kids by ultranova · · Score: 1

      to be pedantic.... elves, hobbits and orcs are different species.

      Since both orcs and elves interbreed with humans, and the resulting offspring can also breed, they are in fact the same species as humans. Since they are both the same species as humans, they must also be the same species as each other. In Arcanum, for example, they are just magically altered humans.

      There's also been half-halflings (quarterlings ?) in some fiction, but their status is less firmly established than that of half-orcs and half-elves.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    74. Re:Remember kids by NoobixCube · · Score: 1

      On a slightly related note, the orcs in The Elder Scrolls are an elf-derived race. They worshipped one of the Aldmer ancestor spirits called Trinimac. A Daedric Prince, Boethiah ate Trinimac and corrupted his essence. His worshipers were corrupted by it too, and became the Orismer (according to Wikipedia, the "Pariah Folk"), and lost most of their elf-like features.

      --
      Admit it. You post strawman arguments as AC so you get modded Insightful for refuting them, rather than Troll
    75. Re:Remember kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's because elves live for a thousand years and dwarves have darkvision.

      So-called "races" don't have intrinsic differences.

      Are you sure about that? Look at the percentage of south africans and chinese who are lactose intolerant, and asians who are near sighted.

      So well...

      Race: Caucasian
      No stat bonus or penalty
      Racial ability at level 1: Able to see more than 3 feets away without contacts.
      Racial ability at level 3: can digest milk even after reaching level 4

      The caucasian also has -1 * Charisma modifier to the "Humility" skill.

      Actually, if you have blue eyes. You can get hurt by the sun more.

      And of course, white skin... = sun burn.

      Also, I saw this in a documentary. Caucasians can't stand hot places very well. That apparently is the cause of the differences in skin colors. It's all because of the sun.

      I remember reading somewhere that Caucasians are more likely to get cancer.. but I don't know.

    76. Re:Remember kids by Bloke+down+the+pub · · Score: 1

      I think we're probably better off not knowing.

      Lack of knowledge isn't a good thing, especially if you're going to make policy based on it.

      Whenever there are differences, people try to assert superiority and inferiority on the basis of them

      Bad actions aren't down to too much knowledge; they're either accidental (due to lack of knowledge) or intentional (due to bad intentions).

      Ignorance is not bliss.

      --
      It's true I tell you, feller at work's next door neighbour read it in the paper.
    77. Re:Remember kids by Killjoy_NL · · Score: 1

      I'd like you to meet some parrots, budgies/parakeets, beos and the odd dog (seriously, I saw a dog on tv many years ago that could "say" mama). :)

      --
      This is the sig that says NI (again)
    78. Re:Remember kids by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Hobbits were specifically claimed to be a breed of Men, so there's no issue there. Elves are trickier. But either way, all cross-breeds that were mentioned in the books were not sterile.

    79. Re:Remember kids by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      "Looking alike", unfortunately, is not enough to claim that two people are genetically close.

      On an individual basis of course it wouldn't be correct 100% of the time.

      But do it with a large enough number and it'd be right more often than it's be wrong.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    80. Re:Remember kids by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      If they're intelligent beasts that can talk, I'd say that's pretty good evidence that they can think. And if they can think, doesn't that make them people?

      Not in Middle Earth context. They're people only if they have "fea" (soul). If they are corrupted elves/men, then they do. If they are beasts, then they do not.

    81. Re:Remember kids by an+unsound+mind · · Score: 1

      Sentience.

    82. Re:Remember kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Species can't interbreed, that's the definition of species. Therefore, they're races.

      That's a common misconception, but a misconception nonetheless. Species are defined not by whether individuals can breed but by whether they *will*.

      Also, keep in mind that reality is more complex than any theory. Things such as "species" are, ultimately, artificial constructs; a model to explain reality, if you will. In reality, the only thing there is is a large number of individuals, and while the model we use is not bad, it's not perfect, either (read up on ring species, for example).

    83. Re:Remember kids by hessian · · Score: 1

      If they're intelligent beasts that can talk, I'd say that's pretty good evidence that they can think. And if they can think, doesn't that make them people?

      You have low standards. Speech doesn't require a high IQ; accurate speech does. Our society is awash in talking apes with car keys. Do we care if they're human, or just stupid? There's nothing so sacred about humans that we should forget we're just slightly more intelligent apes, excepting those rare geniuses like Ludwig van Beethoven and James Watson.

    84. Re:Remember kids by fractoid · · Score: 1

      Interesting, I hadn't delved that far into the deeper mythology of Middle-Earth. I was thinking more in real-world terms... I'll have to try and finish the Silmarillion, it was my insomnia material for months; worked every time like a charm. :P

      As to Killjoy's response (replying here so as not to flood :P ) - there's a difference between talking and making speech noises. By that definition a tape recorder can "talk" but it's not capable of holding a conversation (unlike the eagles, or Beorn (was he a bear or a 'person'?), or the Ents).

      --
      Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
    85. Re:Remember kids by fractoid · · Score: 1

      Which is remarkably hard to quantify and test for, sadly.

      --
      Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
    86. Re:Remember kids by peragrin · · Score: 1

      Seeing how they all had several childern, grandchildern, etcI would say yes.

      Aragorn and Arwen are technically cousins. As Aragorn is descended from from Elrond's brother who choose to be mortal instead of immortal elf.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elrond

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    87. Re:Remember kids by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Ring species. A can interbreed with B, B can with C, C can with D but D can't with A. In other words, interbreeding is not transitive.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    88. Re:Remember kids by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      So noone cared about the Spanish in RE4, eh?

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    89. Re:Remember kids by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      But the player isn't shooting them because they're black but because they want to kill him (and are probably infected with something). That they're black comes mostly because the game takes place in Africa where that's expected.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    90. Re:Remember kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      please refrain from posting utter tripe. Species can, and do, interbreed.

    91. Re:Remember kids by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Interesting, I hadn't delved that far into the deeper mythology of Middle-Earth. I was thinking more in real-world terms... I'll have to try and finish the Silmarillion, it was my insomnia material for months; worked every time like a charm.

      Oh yes; The Silmarillion took me three tries to finish!

      I'm not sure you'll find it there as well, though. There's more to that universe than Hobbit, LotR and Silmarillion, such as Tolkien's notes, and it's not reasonable to sift through them all - much easier to consult one of online encyclopedias on the subject. In fact, Wikipedia has pretty good coverage of Middle Earth related topics. Here is the one relevant in this case.

    92. Re:Remember kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Say if your Down's Syndrome child instead had some heretofore unknown mutation that made them super-intelligent but unlikely to successfully breed with fully human parents?

      I would say most people are unlikely to successfully breed with their parents. At least they keep rejecting me :(

    93. Re:Remember kids by Tickety-boo · · Score: 1

      Technically, no. Bos Taurus (European cattle) and Bos Indicus ("indian" cattle) being different species can produce fertile offspring.

      Try again.

      --
      Reading made Don Quixote a gentleman. Believing what he read made him mad.
    94. Re:Remember kids by usul294 · · Score: 1

      The ability to speak does not make you intelligent. Now get out of here. -Qui-Gon to Jar Jar

    95. Re:Remember kids by fractoid · · Score: 1

      And now I direct you to Bob Kringley's definition of "smart" as meaning "can do stuff that I can't do". Intelligent isn't a binary thing, it's a sliding scale - A flower is less intelligent than a mouse is less intelligent than a dog is less intelligent than a chimp is less intelligent than a brickie is less intelligent than me. (CwotIdidthar? :P )

      --
      Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
    96. Re:Remember kids by ciderVisor · · Score: 1

      Hehehe. Made me chuckle. If I had any mod points, they'd be coming your way.

      --
      Squirrel!
    97. Re:Remember kids by VShael · · Score: 2, Funny

      The caucasian also has -1 * Charisma modifier to the "Humility" skill.

      And the African American gets a +3 to Thief skill
      And the Asian gets a +3 intelligence modifier

      What? We're only allowed to be racist against Caucasians now?

    98. Re:Remember kids by Cro+Magnon · · Score: 1

      Seeing as it's fiction though, do we really care?

      Based on the other replies, I would say, yes we really do care.

      --
      Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
    99. Re:Remember kids by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      Every lion is a lion. Every zebra is a zebra. This is a classification that works. Every once in a while, science makes a discovery that ruins part of the classification system and so they change the system to make it fit the new data.

      Race has nothing to do with science, and classifications do not change despite new evidence, and as you yourself point out - the "half-breeds" ruin the whole system by becoming unclassifiable.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    100. Re:Remember kids by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      To a certain extent, yes, but when you can identify people's race solely by DNA analysis (which you can -- reports to the contrary are wrong, usually only looking at one gene locus instead of multiple), it has a meaning.

      DNA doesn't change things. You are setting up the categories - so of course they fit. A broad nose is going to lie in the DNA somewhere. Brown skin is in the DNA.

      Where "race" gets blown out of the water is when you have outliers. An apparently "white" guy with a strong African heritage, such that a DNA classification would put him in the "black" category. Hell, nearly every single American black has a genome that is not 100% African. Everyone is all mixed up. Hispanics? Please. We don't even try to sort them by race. So this supposedly "useful" classification system cannot classify something like 40% of the US population.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    101. Re:Remember kids by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      What citation do you need to show that people who are genetically similar to one another (i.e. a race) tend to look alike and have identifiable characteristics of similarity?

      The problem is that people still try to apply race when it no longer applies. You might be able to argue that race is an analog to "breed" and certain populations are certainly fairly homogeneous. But then you have people like Tiger Woods, who does not have a race. His father is a mixed black. His mother is Asian. His kids are going to have all of that plus Swedish. Are you still going to pick a category to file them under? THAT'S imbecilic.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    102. Re:Remember kids by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      .and are not funny.

      Indeed, the only thing funny about this exchange is that you thought I was being funny.

      There isn't any scientific basis of race. If there were, people would put up some citations.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    103. Re:Remember kids by VeNoM0619 · · Score: 1

      Tolkien was unclear on the nature of orcs.

      If they're intelligent beasts that can talk, I'd say that's pretty good evidence that they can think. And if they can think, doesn't that make them people?

      This is why we can't get dates... because we are too busy arguing about fine details of fictional characters that a single person made up, as if it somehow explains a broader topic called racism.

      --
      Disclaimer: I am not god.
      We may not be created equal
      But we can be treated equal.
    104. Re:Remember kids by ZygnuX · · Score: 1
    105. Re:Remember kids by denzacar · · Score: 4, Funny

      Actually, if you have blue eyes. You can get hurt by the sun more.

      And of course, white skin... = sun burn.

      So, blue eyes are -1 to perception during day, but they give added bonus to speech and leadership skills.
      And white skin increases the damage received for first 5 levels, and adds a 2% chance increase for a critical hit to turn into skin cancer.

      Black skin on the other hand offers natural nocturnal camouflage.

      Asians get 13% higher life expectancy and receive 31% more gold than whiteys, and 5% intelligence bonus.

      --
      Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
    106. Re:Remember kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wait a second, are downies infertile as some side effect of their disease, are they unable to reproduce because no one will fuck them or is it because they are so stupid they end up eating their own young?

    107. Re:Remember kids by Shados · · Score: 1

      Actually no, since there ARE caucasians that are lactose intolerant and need glasses, I was obviously generalizing. In my generalization, I decided it would be convenient to take a particular sample of one: in other words, me. Thus the little bit about a penalty to humility.

    108. Re:Remember kids by philspear · · Score: 1

      But the player isn't shooting them because they're black but because they want to kill him (and are probably infected with something). That they're black comes mostly because the game takes place in Africa where that's expected.

      Capcom made the game set up the scenario themselves, the in game explanation for what's going on doesn't change anything. You can imagine ways of justifying in game any scenario you've created: okay, yes, you are shooting up the columbine school, but, uh, your character is posessed by the devil. And all the students are actually demons.

      Again I have to point out that I don't think capcom did this, I'm certain that no one said "Hey, I really want to shoot a bunch of black people, because I hate them. Lets make a game around that, and I guess we should say they're zombies, and if we set it in africa, it will just make sense!" I mean, this is the 5th one, and you were shooting european/american zombies in the first ones, as gamers everywhere started screaming when they thought someone was standing between them and an unreleased game.

      You have to admit though that the setup to potentially offensive situations in games don't make them non-offensive, and that kids playing this game might still get the wrong ideas, reguardless of the logic in the game, and decide black people are less than human. Once more, not defending that hypothesis, only playing devil's advocate here since the gamer response to these honest concerns has been ridiculous.

    109. Re:Remember kids by neomunk · · Score: 1

      Isn't the mirror test one of the best measures of sentience? If so, there are many beings on our own planet that are not receiving the rights they are afforded by virtue of their sentience. My mom's (incredibly smart) dog passes that test, as do many other mammals.

      To take up your standard would require a massive shift in the way we do things already, as it represents a drastic change in way we interact with our environment and even our pets.

    110. Re:Remember kids by vux984 · · Score: 1

      I can't think of any rpg/fantasy world where half-elves are sterile. This implies different phenotypes of the same species.

      Or it implies magic and divine intervention. And we KNOW both are present in abundant quantities in virtually EVERY rpg/fantasy world.

    111. Re:Remember kids by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Ring species. A can interbreed with B, B can with C, C can with D but D can't with A. In other words, interbreeding is not transitive.

      Interesting. This seems to put the whole concept of species in jeopardy, especially when used in scientific context.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    112. Re:Remember kids by Shotgun · · Score: 1

      I note with jocularity that both examples you gave were half-breeds. As a mutt myself, I welcome our mixed-heritage overlords.

      --
      Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
      Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
    113. Re:Remember kids by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      My daughter's a mutt - so she can at least join your party :)

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    114. Re:Remember kids by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      Obama's mixed-race ancestry does not invalidate the concept of races from the point of view that Caucasians and Blacks are two branches of humans who separated off from a parent group a loooong time ago and stayed separated long enough to develop traits / adaptations to the individual climates and geographies they encountered to become differentiated from each other.

      Agreed.

      If I mix two pigments of paint, would you say that invalidates the concept of pigments because you can't quite tell which color it is?

      If you don't have a way to express the new color, then it invalidates your classification system.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    115. Re:Remember kids by Khashishi · · Score: 1

      Species is just an approximate categorization with no exact boundaries. The difference between strain or race and species is a matter of degree and convention.

    116. Re:Remember kids by Blkdeath · · Score: 1

      Point 1) We don't use black anymore, we use African. This is both PC and more accurate since it clarifies the difference between african "blacks" and native Australian "blacks".

      If you ask most man-in-the-street black people if they want to be called "African-American" they'll either look at you funny or tell you off. Politically Correct terms are fictional entities designed to make white people feel good about ourselves for being so sensitive all the while coming off as condescending and ignorant.

      Ask a Trini if they're African-American. Or a Jamaican, or an Australian Aborigine, or even a black person originally of African descent whose great, great grandparents were born on North American soil.

      Quite frankly speaking, most American and Canadian blacks have more in common these days with their white compatriots than they ever will with African blacks. Different continents, different cultures, different worlds.

      It's disgusting that in an effort to curb racism, sexism or whatever else ails the world it's become verboten to identify people by their most striking characteristic. When I was in elementary (grade) school I was taught that when I saw a person in a wheelchair if that was the first thing I identified about them then I was a bad, horrible person. Anybody with an ounce of common sense knows that when you meet someone who's sitting in a chair with large chrome wheels attached to either side that's the first thing you're going to notice about them. Second comes their skin tone, gender, hair colour, clothing and general appearance finally followed by minor physical attributes such as eye colour, facial features etc. Anybody who thinks otherwise is delusional at best.

      So let's drop the charade and start treating race the same way we treat gender and hair colour. Nobody objects to being picked out of the crowd as "the tall brown haired guy" so why should anybody feel slighted if they're identified as the "short black woman with long hair"?

      --
      BD Phone Home!

      Shameless plug. Like you weren't expecting it.

    117. Re:Remember kids by Khashishi · · Score: 1

      And if they can think, doesn't that make them people?

      I think what the GP was getting at is that they don't have Tolkien's equivalent for "souls". I'm not saying anything about the existence of souls, but just commenting on my interpretation of GP's interpretation of Tolkien.

    118. Re:Remember kids by Codename_V · · Score: 1

      You didn't have to get that crazy. You could have just gone with a mule.

      --
      Free will is just an illusion
    119. Re:Remember kids by Golddess · · Score: 1

      He defines wrong.

      It's his universe, he can define an Elf/Hobbit/Dwarf/etc however he damn well pleases.

      --
      "I'm not sure I like the fugnutish tone you used in your post!" -RogL (608926)-
    120. Re:Remember kids by fractoid · · Score: 1

      I can't get dates because I'm married and my wife would object. ;)

      --
      Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
    121. Re:Remember kids by fractoid · · Score: 1

      Yep, that makes sense in context...although as I said here, the worst possible condition for personhood is some fuzzy and very subjective 'divine right'. I mean, are people "anyone who's genetically human"? "things that can hold a coherent conversation"? "objects that are blessed by god" seems far less meaningful than either of those and they're my second and third least favorite options for said criteria.

      --
      Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
    122. Re:Remember kids by fractoid · · Score: 1

      rofl thanks, yeah that was a typo/thinko, I meant parent *species*.

      --
      Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
    123. Re:Remember kids by Trent+Hawkins · · Score: 1

      What's that got to do with anything? I was under the impression that RE5 was under attack because you were firing shotgun blasts into herds of zombies who happened to look a lot like black people.

      must be because they're wrongly portraying zombies as black people, because no one seemed to have a problem with Far Cry 2 which is about firing shotgun blasts in to herds of black people.

    124. Re:Remember kids by PingSpike · · Score: 1

      Elrond was a half elf IIRC, and he had a daughter Arwen who presumably went on to have children with Aragorn.

    125. Re:Remember kids by stdarg · · Score: 1

      DNA doesn't change things. You are setting up the categories - so of course they fit. A broad nose is going to lie in the DNA somewhere. Brown skin is in the DNA.

      All categories are set up by people, even scientific ones. Why do some people think Pluto is a planet and others think it isn't? Arbitrary! Oh no!

      Where "race" gets blown out of the water is when you have outliers. Hell, nearly every single American black has a genome that is not 100% African. Everyone is all mixed up.

      You really can't handle outliers?

      Hispanics? Please. We don't even try to sort them by race.

      What's wrong with not sorting them and just calling them all Hispanics?

      So this supposedly "useful" classification system cannot classify something like 40% of the US population.

      Wrong. It can't classify them as ONE race. But you can still say I'm mostly black with some white ancestry. Or I'm mostly white with some Native American.

      I suspect that the reason you reject that is that you don't want a world where people talk about racial purity. Not because it's "scientifically impossible" or "illogical" or "useless" but because it's just not nice. Or is there another reason?

    126. Re:Remember kids by stdarg · · Score: 1

      What is a "scientific basis" to you? Why would one be useful?

      Maybe you're just expecting too much for the field of biology, anthropology, psychology, or whatever you use to study race. There is no scientific basis for lots of things that everyday people accept, like "life" or "consciousness". And in corner cases we run into ethical problems because of that lack of precision. But we still deal with the issues and don't pretend that they don't exist.

    127. Re:Remember kids by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      You really can't handle outliers?

      No, attempts to throw humans into racial categories are what can't handle outliers. I'm perfectly happy with outliers.

      What's wrong with not sorting them and just calling them all Hispanics?

      Because that's not considered a race, it's considered a cultural distinction. You can be black and Hispanic or white and Hispanic. You can be native American and hispanic. Most likely, you are a mix of the three. If your racial classification system can't handle hispanics, it fails.

      But you can still say I'm mostly black with some white ancestry. Or I'm mostly white with some Native American.

      Of course you can say that, and it's perfectly fine for people interested in genealogy or anthropology. There's nothing wrong or racist about that. But the second you find yourself generalizing based on these categories you have set up, you are on a slippery slope. Look how many pathetic discussions there were about whether Obama was "black" or not. Of course it matters, because in the US we have pretty nasty racial hangups - but it's a silly discussion from a strictly logical standpoint.

      I suspect that the reason you reject that is that you don't want a world where people talk about racial purity. Not because it's "scientifically impossible" or "illogical" or "useless" but because it's just not nice. Or is there another reason?

      I'm not so naive. Of course I'd rather there not be people talking about racial purity - but I'm not going to ignore the obvious. If you can breed dogs, you can breed humans. I just don't want to see people's individuality lost to sweeping generalizations that don't even really apply to much of the mixed-up US population.

      I'm still pragmatic, though. If there's a medical condition that is expensive to test for but only occurs in Africans, I think it's perfectly reasonable to only test people who claim to have some African ancestry. But see how that doesn't require that people be divided into "racial" groups? All I need to say is "African ancestry". You can be racially white - that is light skin and features typically associated with Europeans - and still have enough African blood in you to have sickle cell.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    128. Re:Remember kids by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      I always thought that the mirror test was a test for self-awareness, a necessary but not sufficient condition for sentience.

    129. Re:Remember kids by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      What is a "scientific basis" to you?

      Simple, really. If you are going to create a classification system, it needs to be robust enough to handle everything. If new scientific data emerges, it needs to change to match the new data. This happens all the time in biology and there is always a good healthy debate. The concepts of race have been mostly static for, what, hundreds of years?

      I'm not a fool and I realize that it's convenient to describe someone as "black", just as it is convenient to describe a large range of colors as "red". The convenience is worth the inaccuracy. But "black" is not scientific, and neither is "red". If you need color accuracy, you'd quote a pantone number or wavelength or something - not the generic term "red".

      But in science a label should accurately describe something in all (or almost all) cases. At best, the concept of race can cover only a few isolated populations - much of the world is too mixed up, and certainly the US is.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    130. Re:Remember kids by Repton · · Score: 1

      From the page I linked to comes this quote from _The History of Middle Earth X_:

      (4). What of talking beasts and birds with reasoning and speech? These have been rather lightly adopted from less 'serious' mythologies, but play a part which cannot now be excised. They are certainly 'exceptions' and not much used, but sufficiently to show they are a recognized feature of the world. All other creatures accept them as natural if not common.

      (emphasis added)

      This suggests that Tolkien put the talking beasts in before he'd sorted out all the mythology, the origin of species, etc. (note that talking beasts feature particularly in _The Hobbit_, a childrens tale)

      Tolkien continues:

      In summary: I think it must be assumed that 'talking' is not necessarily the sign of the possession of a 'rational soul' or fe"a. The Orcs were beasts of humanized shape (to mock Men and Elves) deliberately perverted / converted into a more close resemblance to Men. Their 'talking' was really reeling off 'records' set in them by Melkor. Even their rebellious critical words - he knew about them. Melkor taught them speech and as they bred they inherited this; and they had just as much independence as have, say, dogs or horses of their human masters. This talking was largely echoic (cf. parrots). In The Lord of the Rings Sauron is said to have devised a language for them.

      The same sort of thing may be said of Húan and the Eagles: they were taught language by the Valar, and raised to a higher level - but they still had no fe"ar.

      This is, as I said before, not his only idea about the origin of orcs.

      --
      Repton.
      They say that only an experienced wizard can do the tengu shuffle.
    131. Re:Remember kids by ShakaUVM · · Score: 1

      >>Of course you can say that, and it's perfectly fine for people interested in genealogy or anthropology. There's nothing wrong or racist about that. But the second you find yourself generalizing based on these categories you have set up, you are on a slippery slope

      There's an entire field called pharmacogenetics which studies the different effects drugs have on people of genetic backgrounds. Our categories of race are useful enough for drug companies to recommend certain drugs be not used with certain races. The amount of liver enzymes for breaking down alcohol, to use a simple example, vary wildly between the races. So even though you might call races "arbitary" it doesn't mean that they're not useful.

      I'm not arguing for racism, just that there is a basis to the categorization beyond a mere label.

    132. Re:Remember kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The definition of species also includes the possibility for breeding in nature.

      Someone referenced the Liger. Lions and Tigers will not encounter each other in natural settings. Only through the intervention of an outside factor (humans) will they ever meet or breed.

    133. Re:Remember kids by Draek · · Score: 1

      to be pedantic.... elves, hobbits and orcs are different species.

      To be pedantic, if they can mate between themselves and produce viable offspring they're members of the same species, and there's nothing to indicate half-elves and half-orcs are sterile, as far as I know.

      --
      No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
    134. Re:Remember kids by adavies42 · · Score: 1

      Secondly, that orcs were not "thinking peoples", like elves/men/dwarves; rather they were intelligent beasts in man-shape, of the same theological status as wargs, the talking ravens in _The Hobbit_, as (perhaps) the great eagles, etc.

      I thought the eagles were Maiar.

      --
      Media that can be recorded and distributed can be recorded and distributed.
      -kfg
    135. Re:Remember kids by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      There's an entire field called pharmacogenetics which studies the different effects drugs have on people of genetic backgrounds.

      Like I said, I'm pragmatic and recognize that race can be a useful, though imperfect, identifier. Health care is often about tradeoffs between cost and efficacy, so if the cost of a genetic test is too high then I'd rather use race than provide no treatment at all. As the cost of genetic testing drops, this will be less of an issue and medical care will improve.

      Races aren't the only marker used in medical care. For instance, redheads require more anesthesia for some reason - yet few people would call redheads a "race".

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    136. Re:Remember kids by Repton · · Score: 1

      The first great eagles probably were. The eagles in LotR were described as descendents of Sorontar, who probably was Maia. What are the offspring of two Maiar? What about the offspring of one Maia (in eagle shape) and a normal (but large) eagle? I don't think there are definitive answers to those questions..

      The Tolkien wiki has lots of stuff to read (including quotes from The History of Middle Earth) if you're interested :-)

      --
      Repton.
      They say that only an experienced wizard can do the tengu shuffle.
    137. Re:Remember kids by PuckSR · · Score: 1

      Actually...a successful hybrid is capable of reproduction
      (and a small percentage of unsuccessful hybrids, like the liger, are capable of reproduction)

      Species is defined by the ABILITY to interbreed...
      Seperation of species is not defined by the lack of interbreeding.

      In fact, using the entire interbreeding thing is a bit antiquated.

    138. Re:Remember kids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fantasy characters don't have as much depth, so generalizations apparently are allowed.

      Have you ever read about a good Orc?

    139. Re:Remember kids by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Species is just an arbitrary dividing line drawn by a bunch of people. It won't be thrown out because it's useful, at least until something more useful comes along.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    140. Re:Remember kids by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      The intention that's attributed to the player is important, if the player shoots them because of some attribute that isn't tied to the race it's not racism (and if it were any other race people wouldn't even call it that), if he shoots them because they are members of that race (or because their race alledgedly possesses an attribute that means you must shoot them) that's racism.

      What I think hurts the image of black people more is everything related to "gangsta culture". Zombies are zombies but this crap makes blacks appear as violent thugs who treat women like dirt and commit crimes all the time, basically a savage in modern clothes.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    141. Re:Remember kids by Je-Tze · · Score: 0

      Neanderthal would quite possibly be more accurately described as a 'race'.
      The jury is very much still out on this one, with no sign of clearing up soon. It is a pretty controversial topic in the field of physical anthropology. Science are a long way from consensus or overwhelming evidence one way or the other on whether neanderthal was: 1)essentially a highly adapted and isolated racial/ethnic variation of Homo sapiens; 2)a subspecies --which, at any rate, is not well defined as being different from an isolated racial/ethnic variation-- for example Homo sapiens neanderthalensis, as opposed to modern huans, Homo sapiens sapiens; 3)possibly a separate species. Even if it can legitimately be characterized as a separate species there is, yet again, no consensus, nor overwhelming evidence as to whether they died off or just reassimilated/interbred with archaic modern human populations.

      And yes contrary to popular myth some distinct 'species' can, and do, interbread and produce viable offspring. This is due to many factors. Taxonomy is a human classification system for information, and does not necessarily reflect biological realities. Accepted taxonomies are constantly in flux due to availability of new data, as well new interpretations of data. The definition of species itself as not yet stable, and is still somewhat controversial. Some distinct 'species' don't interbreed because they... haven't. This can be due to geographical or even 'social' isolation from other populations, and is not necessarily an indication of biological inability to produce viable offspring. BTW, in evolutionary biology 'viable offspring' means they can go on to produce and rear new generations of offspring who are also viable. The ability to interbread as a defining characteristic for speciation is fairly antiquated. It's a handy item to have at the top of the checklist: if populations biologically can't interbreed then obviously they are different species; it doesn't work the other way around though.

      BTW, Tolkiens FICTIONS (as much as i love them) have zero bearing on the realities of evolutionary biology, or social sciences, other than the fact that they are an interesting reflection of the endmic racism of his culture at the time.

      Disclaimer: i'm niether an anthropologist nor a biologist by trade nor training.

      --
      jz (Je-Tze)
    142. Re:Remember kids by Je-Tze · · Score: 0

      Wrong. That is not the definition of species.
      PART of the definition is that they DON'T interbreed, not that the biologically can't.
      See my above reply to your parent, or just try looking in a dictionary or even wikipedia while using reading comprehension. Most definitions or explanations of species and speciation specifically don't say that populations can't interbreed. They simply indicate that they DON'T.

      --
      jz (Je-Tze)
    143. Re:Remember kids by ShakaUVM · · Score: 1

      >>Races aren't the only marker used in medical care. For instance, redheads require more anesthesia for some reason - yet few people would call redheads a "race".

      Sure. I believe that any time a label can be used to create a medicially-significant difference of treatments, then it's valid to use that label, as a difference does exist. I don't think it's justified to use it in the common, racist ways.

      A lot of people think that race is just a social construct. While it may be a social construct, it's not *just* a social construct, as statistics can separate the groups.

    144. Re:Remember kids by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      A lot of people think that race is just a social construct. While it may be a social construct, it's not *just* a social construct, as statistics can separate the groups.

      Statistics only get you so far, though.

      For instance, while it is true that redheads statistically require more anesthesia, it would be foolish for a doctor to administer more than normal because you can't guarantee that THIS particular redhead will behave like that. Thus, you have a statistical difference but you can't act on it. The situation is similar for blacks in the US. Estimates seem to hover around 20% for the amount of European blood that, on average, is in what we have decided are black people. So, yeah, black women might be at a higher risk for breast cancer statistically - but that doesn't change the way you treat black women medically. All you can say is that they should get yearly mammograms... same advice you give supposedly 100% white women.

      So were back to the groups being statistically significant but mostly useless from a scientific perspective. The exceptions might include anthropologists - and even they would have to give up on the typical American no matter what genetic tests they possessed.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    145. Re:Remember kids by ShakaUVM · · Score: 1

      >>For instance, while it is true that redheads statistically require more anesthesia, it would be foolish for a doctor to administer more than normal because you can't guarantee that THIS particular redhead will behave like that.

      But if you're aware that redheads often need more anesthesia, your medical treatment of them during surgery will likely be more successful, as that's something you'll be watching for.

    146. Re:Remember kids by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      But if you're aware that redheads often need more anesthesia, your medical treatment of them during surgery will likely be more successful, as that's something you'll be watching for.

      Unfortunately the converse is also true and you will let your guard down for the non-redheads. So statistically, sure, you might be upping the health care overall but at the expense of the fringe cases.

      A good doctor will test a white guy for sickle cell if his wife tests for the trait when pregnant, even though sickle cell is vanishingly rare among whites.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    147. Re:Remember kids by jonadab · · Score: 1

      > to be pedantic.... elves, hobbits and orcs are different species.

      I'm pretty sure elves[1], orcs[2], and hobbits[3] are all capable of interbreeding with humans and producing fertile offspring. There are sociological reasons why it's not commonly done, but that just makes them different, umm, what was that word? Oh, yeah, different "races".

      [1] The line of the kings of Numenor, for instance, contains elvish blood and even a small fraction of Ainur.
      [2] The movie handles it differently, but my take from the books is that this is how the Uruk-hai were created.
      [3] I don't know of any examples of this in the third age, but if you go back farther the Stoors were clearly
              related to men, and then they interbred with the other hobbits.

      --
      Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
    148. Re:Remember kids by jonadab · · Score: 1

      > What about humans with Down's Syndrome?

      They're obviously human because both parents were human. How could they be anything else?

      Infertile or barren *individuals* are something that happens occasionally in many different kinds of creatures, but an infertile human is still human, an infertile dog is still a dog, and so on. On a different occasion the same two parents may produce fertile offspring, thus proving that there's no species barrier involved. The infertility does not arise because of mixed ancestry, but for other reasons.

      However, if you have two completely different *kinds* of creatures, then interbreeding between them will *consistently* not produce fertile offspring. We're no longer talking just about individuals here, but the whole line. You breed a donkey and a horse, you're always going to get an infertile mule. You will not, on a different occasion, get a different outcome. You can pick a different donkey and a different horse, but you're still going to get a mule -- or possibly a hinny, if you consider that different from a mule; either way, it's always always always going to be infertile, always. It's not just the individual that's infertile; the whole pairing (donkey with horse) is not viable past one generation, period.

      A kid with trisomy 21 is 100% human. All of the genetic material is human.

      In summary, it's not the same at all.

      Now, it should be noted that this is *not* how Darwin defined "species", nor do modern evolutionists define species this way. *Creationists* use this definition, for what it means for animals to be a different kind, versus the same kind (they usually don't use the word "species"). Evolutionists consider two groups to be different species if they do not ordinarily interbreed under natural conditions, or something like that. But Tolkein was a creationist.

      Oh, one other thing: this isn't really an important point, but trisomy 21 does not always make a person *completely* infertile. Fertility is greatly reduced, but the *potential* to have children is there. It's just not particularly likely.

      --
      Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
    149. Re:Remember kids by Von+Helmet · · Score: 1

      No, because no interbreeding has taken place. A Down's syndrome child is produced by two humans, not two different species. Just because the offspring is infertile in that case, doesn't mean it ceases to be human. This doesn't have anything to do with what the GP posted, as he was specifically talking about the results of interbreeding.

      This could be neatly explained with Venn diagrams, to show the sets involved.

    150. Re:Remember kids by adavies42 · · Score: 1

      What about the offspring of one Maia (in eagle shape) and a normal (but large) eagle?

      eru's down with the bestiality? kinky.

      --
      Media that can be recorded and distributed can be recorded and distributed.
      -kfg
  4. Can't we all get along-Rodney "Quake" King. by Ostracus · · Score: 1

    I've been playing Q4 and you find different races in that. All dying for the same cause. Now that's equal.

    --
    Shai Schticks:"You don't make peace with friends, you make peace with enemies"
  5. ethnic cleansing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  6. Rule-wise color-blindedness? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Many current video games start with a selection of skin color...I'm not aware of any that have perks or penalties for racial categories, however. It's not like your jumping ability varies with your skin albedo...what's the big deal?

    1. Re:Rule-wise color-blindedness? by larry+bagina · · Score: 0, Troll

      Actually, in Fallout 3, if you choose a black character, your default intelligence is 2 points lower, and your default strength is 2 points higher (you can edit them). Bethesda claimed it was a bug. In fact, it was one of the few they've admitted to.

      --
      Do you even lift?

      These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

    2. Re:Rule-wise color-blindedness? by AnonGCB · · Score: 1

      Holy hell, that's hilarious!

      --
      http://CryoLANparty.com/ A lan I'm staff on!
    3. Re:Rule-wise color-blindedness? by ildon · · Score: 1

      I created a black character on the PC version and my stats were all 5, straight down the board, by default. So I can't tell if you're being serious or not.

    4. Re:Rule-wise color-blindedness? by vishbar · · Score: 1

      What? I've found no evidence of this online...can you cite a source?

      --
      Ride the skies
    5. Re:Rule-wise color-blindedness? by AnonGCB · · Score: 1

      Well, to be fair, you might have patched the problem, from 1.0 to 1.0.15 I believe. I have seen no evidence of it, but you never know.

      --
      http://CryoLANparty.com/ A lan I'm staff on!
    6. Re:Rule-wise color-blindedness? by Draek · · Score: 1

      Well, given that those stat modifications are pretty much standard in RPGs for all Orc-race characters, and the fact that Fallout 3 is pretty much Oblivion with a new skin, I don't think it was intentional.

      --
      No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
  7. I have a dream by LtGordon · · Score: 4, Funny

    that one day on the red hills of Silicon Valley, the sons of former Pac-Men and the sons of Blinky, Pinky, Inky, and Clyde will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood. I have a dream that my four little children will one day play a game where they will not be judged by the color of their avatar, but by the content of their player stats.

  8. Perhaps... by psnyder · · Score: 5, Insightful

    How ironic to think that perhaps (just perhaps) a game developer, or movie director, who isn't at all racist, wasn't at even thinking about race, may have created something based in a certain country. And in that country they just saw people as "people".

    And then, the players of a game, or viewers of a movie turn out to actually place more of a distinction on "races" than the developer. They see the skin color, or different shaped eyes, and it becomes an issue to "them" where it wasn't to the creators. They start screaming "racist" and "bigot", when in fact they scream it at people more innocent then them.

    Perhaps things like this are rare, but I've seen similar things in my own life. People who I know aren't even thinking about distinctions between so called "races" getting yelled at by people who are.

    Racism in any form should not be tolerated. But we should be sure that there's a blanket, derogatory emphasis placed on someone simply because of their group, and not the content of their personal character.

    1. Re:Perhaps... by sssssss27 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That happened to my friend once. He was working at a bowling alley where they keep the pool sticks behind the counter. Some Spanish kids wanted to play pool and my friend, who is white, said he would get to them when he could because the place was busy. It took him a little bit to get to them but when he finally did their parents were yelling at him calling him racist for making them wait. My friend, who was fed up with always be called racist since he was white working in a predominately Spanish area, finally snapped and yelled back at the guy why is he a racist, why can't he just be a jerk. If he was Spanish and he made them wait would he have been called racist?

    2. Re:Perhaps... by Xiroth · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Perhaps. But there's also the camp that suggests that the roles we see for black (or x other minority or female) characters are cast as they are due to subconcious racism (or sexism), which frequently is brought on by viewing other media with similar unintentional racism. In this case, although the developer was entirely innocent of intentionally adding racism, their characters are just like the others found in other films and therefore have the same racism in common with them. The people who kick up a fuss are trying to break the circuit by forcing the developers to take another look at their preconceptions.

      I don't know much about RE5, so I'm not familiar with whether this applies in this case, but doing something unintentionally can be, in some cases, even worse than doing it intentionally, as it means that the problem is rooted in the fabric of the culture rather than one or two bigoted individuals.

      Just a couple of cents.

    3. Re:Perhaps... by bigbigbison · · Score: 1

      How can you ever be sure of someone's intention?

      --
      http://www.popularculturegaming.com -- my blog about the culture of videogame players
    4. Re:Perhaps... by nschubach · · Score: 1

      But you shouldn't have to change movies like Black Hawk Down just because you think it might be racist. That's like advocating the rewriting of history to make it sound better or to try to wipe out wrongs in the past.

      The same really applies to this game. If it's based in a part of Africa that's predominantly African Males, you shouldn't have to place other races/sexes in there to make it even. If you were to do that, and teach children that the world is perfectly diverse in some magical way, it only sets them up for a rude or startling awakening if they travel to said location later in life.

      --
      Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
    5. Re:Perhaps... by nschubach · · Score: 1

      Sorry for the extra post. I meant to add:

      You're projecting racism from the individual to the media. You're trying to protect some novel projection of equal distribution that simply isn't true in order to "protect the children." In doing so, you're only setting them up for a very vivid wakeup call when they find out it's not true and they'll likely retaliate further or harsher if they do end up going there on vacation or military assignment.

      --
      Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
    6. Re:Perhaps... by Jarjarthejedi · · Score: 1

      "but doing something unintentionally can be, in some cases, even worse than doing it intentionally, as it means that the problem is rooted in the fabric of the culture rather than one or two bigoted individuals."

      Or, perhaps, your game is set in a nation of predominantly African-American (I hate that term btw) individuals and so, when choosing the predominant inhabitants of that region within your game you went with realism.

      Not a single person ever complained about racism in RE's 1-4 which had predominantly white zombie bad guys. Just something to chew on.

      --
      There are two kinds of fool One says 'This is old therefore good' Another says 'This is new therefore better'- Dean Ing
    7. Re:Perhaps... by g0at · · Score: 1

      He was working at a bowling alley where they keep the pool sticks behind the counter.

      Now that's a sort of bowling I've never heard of.

      -b

    8. Re:Perhaps... by Xiroth · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Uh, they aren't African-Americans, you know - they're Africans. That reminds me of when an American interviewer was interviewing a black British guy - she called him African-American, he corrected her, but she couldn't stop doing it. It's times like these that you yanks really do seem slightly crazed.

      Anyway, back to the point, I really love the strawmen that people are building up around this. Who the heck is saying that you shouldn't have black people in Africa? I certainly haven't seen anyone suggesting that. What most people seem to be pissed off at is that it's A) a white guy going around killing lots of black people that are B) behaving like stereotypical savages. Yeah, the B part is because they're zombies, but the parallels with the violent colonisation and subjugation of Africa by the European nations in the Age of Discovery are pretty strong. It would have been a lot simpler to just have a local cop be the protagonist - it's not like they haven't done that before.

    9. Re:Perhaps... by Xiroth · · Score: 1

      If it's based in a part of Africa that's predominantly African Males, you shouldn't have to place other races/sexes in there to make it even.

      Seriously? Predominantly African Males? Wow, poor guys - I'd probably turn into a zombie too if there weren't enough women around to keep things interesting.

      Anyway, I'm not entirely sure where people keep pulling this idea that people want to put random other races into the game. Where's it coming from? Why are people even paying attention to it? It's obviously stupid, and I haven't seen anyone actually suggest it anywhere - just a lot of people attacking a position that no-one actually seems to be holding. In fact, hell, let's go the other way and say that the protagonist should be black too - that solves both your problem that there should be more African Males in the game (admittedly, you could go really extreme and make the protagonist an African Female, but as far as I know that'd be breaking new ground in protagonists so I don't see it happening here), as well as the the real problem that people seem to have that the game is about a white guy running around and killing a lot of black people.

    10. Re:Perhaps... by Walpurgiss · · Score: 1

      Every bowling alley I've ever been in has also had pool tables. ?

    11. Re:Perhaps... by Xest · · Score: 1

      With regards to the whole resident evil 5 thing I don't understand why it's okay for game developers to bring violence to the streets of New York, to bring violence between nations that are nowadays allies, to bring violence against even civilians or to kill arabs because that's now (rather ignorantly) seen as a fair game terrorist stereotype to some. ...But it's not okay to bring violence to one of the most violent places on Earth - Africa. I can't help but wonder if the reason people make a fuss about that is because they don't want to accept the reality there, that they'd rather ignore it and pretend everything is okay there, god forbid the idea that anyone ever have to carry a gun in Africa.

    12. Re:Perhaps... by Killjoy_NL · · Score: 1

      Nah, it's a challenge to use pool cues to get a strike with a bowling ball :D

      --
      This is the sig that says NI (again)
    13. Re:Perhaps... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That happened to my friend once. He was working at a bowling alley where they keep the pool sticks behind the counter.

      I'm afraid your story doesn't quite add up, Mister Sssssss... if that is your real name.

    14. Re:Perhaps... by elrous0 · · Score: 2, Funny

      As a racist myself, I really resent the way the term is tossed around in this modern day politically-correct world. When I was younger, you had to EARN your racist moniker. I had to actually burn crosses on people's lawns, threaten them if they voted, burn down their barn if they got all uppity, etc. That was fucking WORK, man. The KKK doesn't just let anyone in, you have to go to the meetings and buy robes and shit (not to mention raise money with those damned candy sales once a year). Nowadays, any old innocent yahoo who tells a joke or makes a movie or TV show that shows blacks/latinos/etc. in anything less than the most positive light gets labeled a racist. That's such bullshit!

      It's just damned unfair to call someone a "racist" for portraying Africans or Haitians as poor, largely uneducated, slum dwellers--as opposed to opulent, college-educated, people living in vast mansions on piles of money and dignity. It's damned unfair to *ME*! I worked hard at becoming a racist and now I have to share the same footing with some lazy dipshit whose only racism was a crime of *omission* as opposed to my actual *commission*?!?!?

      Now, if you'll excuse me I have to go spraypaint "Nigger, get out!" on someone's front door. That's the kind of thing those of us who actually *EARNED IT* have to do to be called a racist.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    15. Re:Perhaps... by Gizzmonic · · Score: 1

      Spanish people are white, maybe you meant Latino?

      Also, in my experience, the average Spanish person is a lot more racist than the average American. Same goes for most Europeans.

      --
      (-1, Raw and Uncut is the only way to read)
    16. Re:Perhaps... by Rycross · · Score: 1

      I would imagine that they wanted to continue the story with the protagonists that they established in the first two games, rather than start introducing new characters. They used the same characters for Resident Evil 4 and Resident Evil: Code Veronica. They added a side-kick character for Resident Evil 3, but the main protagonist was a character from Resident Evil. They're trying to keep the story moving. Their picking of a white character was motivated because its canon, not along racial lines. They could have added a local African cop, sure, but it would be at the expense of developing their current characters, and complicating the plot that they have laid out in the previous games. The black people "acting like savages" is, as you pointed out, because they're friggen zombies.

      Basically what it amounts to is that they're continuing a pre-existing story in a certain setting, and as a result you have a white guy killing black zombies. There's nothing explicitly racist about the story, but people are choosing to project their own racist feelings on the game.

      I don't see why institutionalized racism plays into this. You'd have to argue that somehow the setting and plot of the game are falling into old stereotypes and thus perpetuating them. I'm at a loss as to what stereotypes this game is supposed to be perpetrating. Its just a white guy running around killing Africans because *drumroll* he's in Africa and the Africans are zombies! Not only is that not a typical horror stereotype (i.e. the black survivor always dies), its pretty much devoid of any stereotypes on the face of it. Hell, look at a typical horror game or movie, and look at the zombies. Mostly white, right? In many cases, all white.

      Now, I don't know much about RE5 other than the synopsis. Maybe they have Africans in there acting out stereotypes. I don't know. If they do, then yeah there would be a point. But how it has been portrayed in the media is that because a white American is in Africa killing African zombies, it is explicitly (the claim is explicit, not implicit) racist. That view is ignorant.

      Now, video games in general have a long way to go in terms of good diverse characters. Woman characters still come off as teenage fantasies more often than not. Black characters are typically abysmal (Cole from Gears of War, uhg!). But the bitching about Resident Evil 5 comes off as a group of people looking for a reason to be offended.

    17. Re:Perhaps... by Rycross · · Score: 1

      Just be glad you don't work for a bank. I have a relative who works for a bank, and she gets the race card played at least once a day, usually because she won't violate federal laws or remove *repeatedly* incurred charges, or violate myriads of fairly mundane policies. I also have a black friend who also gets the race card played on him from time to time by black customers. Figure that one out.

      Apparently what works best is to either treat them like children, or outright ask them if they are really playing the race card.

      Apparently, most of the other customers of the same race find it embarrassing and annoying. They want to be treated fairly, and people throwing a temper tantrum and throwing the race card at the drop of a hat makes it undeservedly harder for them.

      Yeah, people suck.

    18. Re:Perhaps... by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      I had that happen once, back when I worked at $WE_SELL_COMPUTERS at the $WE_FIX_COMPUTERS bench, back before the department was borged by $WE_WEAR_TIES_AND_PRETEND_TO_HAVE_A_CLUE.

      Had someone play the race card when they were informed that their laptop repair was not going to be covered under warranty.

      Customer: "It's because I'm black, isn't it."

      Me: "Are you really playing the race card on me, man?"

      Customer: "What if I am?"

      Me: "Then I'm going to have the play the 'No, it's because your dumb ass flooded it with coke' card and ask again for the $200 repair bill.'

      I was in earshot of my manager, but the write up was so worth it.

    19. Re:Perhaps... by svank · · Score: 1

      They actually play a variant of baseball, where the goal is to knock down pins with the bowling ball after hitting the ball towards the pins with the pool stick in mid-air. Needless to say, they go through bats rather quickly.

    20. Re:Perhaps... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is African even the correct word? I mean I am from South Africa(ie African) but am white.

      Here we do refer to people by colour (Eg Black, white coloured, indian etc), but it is mostly for job application to give advantage to previously disadvantaged, and to determine if a company has enough disadvantaged people to qualify for a BEE rating and govt contracts. Of course people from other countries (eg Chinese/Japaese) actually have a higher ranking than white people

    21. Re:Perhaps... by Xiroth · · Score: 1

      It is when you're comparing it to calling black people in Africa 'African-American' in that they're not American at all. You'll also note that neither African or African-American actually refers to race; something that seems to be ignored in the US. I agree that if you wanted to refer specifically to black Africans, you'd need to actually say that - it's not like many African countries (notably South Africa) don't have a decent-sized population of the various other races.

    22. Re:Perhaps... by Von+Helmet · · Score: 1

      That reminds me of when an American interviewer was interviewing a black British guy - she called him African-American, he corrected her, but she couldn't stop doing it.

      That was Kriss Akabusi, a gold medal winning athlete. I'm afraid the best link I can find is at everything2. Here you go.

  9. Re:Change We Can Believe In! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Video games? What about racism on slashdot. This is a perfect example. I mean, what sort of racist would mod this down? For shame, slashdot.

  10. important issue by ashleyandtiana · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    I do not really play video games but it does not surprise me that there is racism - and sexism, I am sure - in them. I am glad to know that this important issue is being discussed, especially considering the number of children who play video games and the subliminal messages that are transmitted.

    1. Re:important issue by cgenman · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I am a game developer. Let me assure you that explicit racism and sexism is long a thing of the past in video games. Today's problem is getting past the archytypical stereotypes that all media reach for when it is 9 PM and you really need to write in a character before you can go home.

      In terms of racism, video games have more or less the same preponderance of "Black best friends" as other modern media. There is the spunky old black engineer with only the slightest bit of white hair. There are the seductive, ass-kicking amazonian black women. There is the black player 2 character, who is black mainly so that he looks different from player 1. You won't see any blackface 1930's stereotypes, but you also won't see a lot of black leading men in nontraditional roles.

      Gender tends to receive a worse treatment than other media, unfortunately, as A: there are far fewer female game developers, which tends to promote a teenage view of gender and B: gender stereotypes are actually useful from a gameplay context (rescue the princess, smaller / faster / weaker, etc). I haven't ever seen a game where the female character is a worse driver, but I've definitely seen games where the female characters needed to be a bit less of a teenage male fantasy. Female representations in gaming are approximately at the same place as they were in early 90's music videos: better than 10 years ago, but still with a ways to go.

    2. Re:important issue by Avatar8 · · Score: 1
      I disagree. I think that there is a great deal of explicit racism occurring in games, and implicit racism that is then brought out by players.

      GTA is a good example of explicit racism at least what is marketed. I have never played it myself (genre doesn't interest me), but every commercial I've ever seen shows a black or Latino as the main character that is driving over people, shooting police and beating up prostitutes. From what I've seen every role in that game is stereotypical racism.

      WoW is a good example of implicit racism. The whole basis of the faction war between Alliance and Horde is due to differences in races that escalated over time. What's worse are the PvPers that constantly call out in chat "Let's go raid [opposite faction city].... because they're [Horde/Alliance]."

      Really MMOs are the best and worst forums of racism. Everyone is anonymous and we accept each other as the character presented in the game. For the most part race, gender, religion and political affiliation never factor into chatting, raiding or any other group activity. When they do it immediately causes friction.

      While I agree that no developer explicitly puts racism or sexism in a game, I think general negligence of not including all possible races in key roles is occurring. I blame most of this on appealing to the historically primary consumer, those with the most disposable income and the most free time for gaming: young, white males.

      WoW has made a major breakthrough in attracting female gamers (30% last I heard), and I'm expecting that is having some influence on development. As internet and gaming becomes more available and attractive to a wider diversity of races, I think we'll eventually see a more accurate reflection of real life in gaming.

    3. Re:important issue by cgenman · · Score: 1

      I don't think it is fair to judge a game by commercials. In GTA, every race indulges in power fantasy violence and hedonism in roughly equal parts.

    4. Re:important issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Female representations in gaming are approximately at the same place as they were in early 90's music videos: ....

      Bigger tits would go a log way toward remedying this situation.

  11. Black College Football: The Xperience by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Nerjyzed's only game to date has been Black College Football: The Xperience, a sports sim based around the American football leagues of HBCUs. When BCFX was first announced, the developer was criticised for attempting to segregate the gaming community and was even accused of racism. Jackson says such arguments are a 'fallacy', stating that Nerjyzed is simply making a product representative of a thriving sports league, which has existed for decades: 'BCFX is not just a football title,' he says. 'It is a cultural lifestyle product that centres around the HBCU football culture.'"

    Step 1: Develop "Black College Football: The Xperience"
    Step 2: ???
    Step 3: Racial Harmony

  12. There's one safe group.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    as advertisers have found out. You can always make fun of white males. If Spike Lee did a film or video game where white males were being shot there would be no mention of racism. Racism itself has gotten very subjective. A number of serious diseases have come out of Africa so it was a logical choice and it's hard to make a game set in Africa with a bunch of blond haired blue eyed Nordic types turning to zombies and getting shot. Set a game in Beverly Hills with a bunch of rich yuppies turning to zombies and getting shot and people would find it funny not offensive.

    1. Re:There's one safe group.... by Cro+Magnon · · Score: 1

      Set a game in Beverly Hills with a bunch of rich yuppies turning to zombies and getting shot and people would find it funny not offensive.

      But, if Beverly Hills yuppies turned into zombies, nobody would even notice a difference.

      --
      Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
  13. Game categories... by gillbates · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Someone who...

    • Plays pianos is a pianist...
    • Plays guitar is a guitarist...
    • Plays racing games is a racist?! - er um, gamer?

    Honestly, I'm sick to death of the whole racism debate. This is nothing more than a manufactured controversy. Seriously, people, move on - in case you didn't notice, a Black man was elected President and has chosen a woman for his Secretary of State. The debate is over, racism is out. Sure, you can find racists if you look, but the majority of America is not racist, and I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that there are more Mac users than racists. (Okay, that last part was troll bait, but only in jest...)

    There are bigger, more important issues in the gaming world than whether or not some game is interpreted by some conspiracy-loving-nutjob as racist.

    \sarcasm
    I mean, just think of the titles passed over by the gaming industry in the name of sensitivity to women and minorities:

    1. Grand Theft Auto: Nigga Thug Style...
    2. Age of Empires: African Conquest.
    3. World of Whorecraft...

    And many more!

    \sarcasm

    But on a more serious note, games are about fantasy, not reality. I'm not interested in a game which represents someone else's politically correct reality. Conflict is part of the fun. But I've yet to see any game where racism represents a major theme. It would be just too close to reality to be fun. Instead, game makers concentrate on the fantasy, escapist themes which take the players away from the daily boredom and unresolved difficulties of normal life.

    --
    The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
    1. Re:Game categories... by cgenman · · Score: 4, Funny

      I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that there are more Mac users than racists.

      Why do you think they're only available in white?

      (I kid, I kid)

    2. Re:Game categories... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The debate is over, racism is out

      You live in a fantasy world if you believe that. In case you hadn't noticed, racism reared its ugly head in multiple, transforming forms during the presidential campaign which you so cavalierly reference.

      I am so sick of sheltered people saying things like "racism is over." Give me a break. It's insulting to those of us who live in the real world.

    3. Re:Game categories... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But on a more serious note, games are about fantasy, not reality. I'm not interested in a game which represents someone else's politically correct reality. Conflict is part of the fun. But I've yet to see any game where racism represents a major theme. It would be just too close to reality to be fun. Instead, game makers concentrate on the fantasy, escapist themes which take the players away from the daily boredom and unresolved difficulties of normal life.

      Damned right. I'm sick of all this crap about, "You didn't portray me to my satisfaction, so you're a racist. You must study my culture deeply and re-craft your material to represent me as I see myself. Oh, and do the same for the guy behind me (also of my ethnicity) who sees himself in a very different way from the way I see myself."

      Bullcrap -- if you guys are so damned bright, write your own plays, stories, TV programs and movies. Do yourselves up any way you see fit. Use some of your own alleged superior intellectual capacity and creativity. Put it out and see who buys it.

      Jeez, maybe I should start my own campaign about how blonde, blue-eyed white guys and girls are seriously under-represented in manga books.

      What's screamingly hilarious is to hear this garbage from the mouths of the Japanese -- the most racially-bigoted and xenophobic assholes I've ever encountered.

      I once worked with a woman who was mixed Japanese and American. But she'd been raised for a large part of her life in Japan. Holy shit -- she was amazing.

      I happen to live in a community which was all white, with occasional black people. Over the years (being on the Pacific coast), it's now become something over 50% Filipino. My son-in-law is Filipino. One day, the topic of Filipinos came up in conversation. Her first reaction was, "Oh, they're such dirty people!" I asked what made her think so. She went on about the way they dress and how they keep their houses. I told her that I lived in a heavily Filipino community and, in fact, that my own son-in law is Filipino. I went on to say I'd been in their houses and at gatherings with them. And that they apparently put a much higher premium on clean homes than I ever had. And furthermore, all were much better groomed than I ever was.

      The dizzy bitch replied (((Sit down, folks!!!))), "Oh, they only do that to cover up how really filthy they are."

      Good God, if anyone can think of a better response to that than, "Pardon me while I go over there and bash my head on the wall for awhile", I'd like to know what it is.

      As for portraying people as different from each other, look what's happened in the textbook industry. Over the years, the textbook publishers have gotten extremely proficient at self-censorship. There are only about five publishers to serve the entire US public school system. I believe three are based in Europe. There are basically two states which control the content -- California and Texas. If you can't get books accepted by the school boards of these two states, no one else will buy. Hell, it won't even be worth publishing

      In this corner, you have the great state of Texas, representing all those fine Republican family values to be found in the Great American Bible Belt or, more piously -- (OK, guys, on your feet, hats off and hands over your heart) the Great Hammerikan Heartland . You damned better never think of including any ghosts, fairies (of either kind), goblins, high school sports teams named the Sun Devils, pregnant teens (that's only a virtue in Alaska, it seems) or any other of that type of Unammerrikkan stuff.

      In the near corner, you have California (that fetid pit of sin, squalor and Hollywood), representing also that other coast, which will, in the fullness of time, be ground back by the mighty Atlantic ocean to the eastern border of Arkansas. Don't even think, not even in your nightmares, of having anything even remotely non-politically-correct. No blacks with boomboxes and fast cars, no glasses-wearing, overachieving Asian students, no siesta-taking La

    4. Re:Game categories... by mike2R · · Score: 3, Funny

      Well you can get black ones - pretty much the same as the white version but they've got a bigger... you know... hard drive.

      --
      This sig all sigs devours
    5. Re:Game categories... by Lordnerdzrool · · Score: 1

      Watch out! Keep your head down! The joke may hit you!

    6. Re:Game categories... by Veggiesama · · Score: 1

      Seriously, people, move on - in case you didn't notice, a Black man was elected President and has chosen a woman for his Secretary of State. The debate is over, racism is out. Sure, you can find racists if you look, but the majority of America is not racist

      Apparently you don't live anywhere near where I live...

    7. Re:Game categories... by jgtg32a · · Score: 1

      Racism will never be over because too many people would be out of a job if it were.

    8. Re:Game categories... by VShael · · Score: 1

      Why do you think they're only available in white?

      Well, didn't everyone see that super-secret Memo sent by Steve Jobs? "If it ain't white, it ain't right."

    9. Re:Game categories... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Someone who...

      • Plays pianos is a pianist...
      • Plays guitar is a guitarist...
      • Plays racing games is a racist?! - er um, gamer?

      Someone who Plays the race card is a racist?

    10. Re:Game categories... by Shotgun · · Score: 1

      Seriously, people, move on - in case you didn't notice, a Black man was elected President and has chosen a woman for his Secretary of State. The debate is over, racism is out.

      If that could've ended the debate, it would have been over years ago. We've had a *black woman* as Secretary of State for years now. I guess she doesn't count, because she didn't run around talking about glass ceilings or breaking racial barriers. She just did her job and did it well, without drawing attention to her underclass status.

      Racism won't end until the correct response to being unjustly called a racist is "Fuck off, dickhead."

      --
      Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
      Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
    11. Re:Game categories... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have a black Mac, you insensitive clod

    12. Re:Game categories... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "but they've got a bigger... you know... hard drive."

      Urban Myth is down the hall.

    13. Re:Game categories... by Sally+Forth · · Score: 1

      "But I've yet to see any game where racism represents a major theme. It would be just too close to reality to be fun. "

      Try playing Elder Scrolls: Morrowind as an Argonian. :)

  14. The Relentless March of Political Correctness by DesScorp · · Score: 1, Flamebait

    Well, the grievance crowd was sure to come to gaming sooner or later. And you Hentai fans that like your young asian porn, you're probably next on the hit parade of incorrect behavior.

    --
    Life is hard, and the world is cruel
    1. Re:The Relentless March of Political Correctness by FooGoo · · Score: 1

      They can have my hentai when they pry it from my cold dead tentacles.

      --
      People who bite the hand that feeds them usually lick the boot that kicks them
  15. The tubes by Bemopolis · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If you think the games are racist, wait until you hear the rambling smack talk from the troglodytes on XBL (or, I would presume, any other online service).

    On the plus side it does make me feel young, as it reminds me of junior high in East Texas. Only stupider.

    --
    "I guess the moral of the story is, don't paint your airship with rocket fuel." -- Addison Bain
  16. wtf? by dissy · · Score: 1

    I have to stop and ask a big WTF here.
    WTF?

    ... thanks in large part to the controversy surrounding the Resident Evil 5 launch trailer.

    So not having heard of any racist issues with this new game, nor seen its trailer yet, i simply highlighted "Resident Evil 5 launch trailer" and hit 'google', which the first link back appears to be said trailer at http://www.gametrailers.com/player/41037.html

    I see absolutely nothing controversial nor racist there.

    Even the article doesn't help.

    The trailer sparked angry reactions from black activist groups and saw legions of gamers rush to defend the franchise's reputation

    But why?
    Is this seriously a problem in todays world? Am I missing something?

    I realize the only point of activist groups such as these are to promote racism to keep them selfs in a job, but really now...

    1. Re:wtf? by bigbigbison · · Score: 2, Informative

      That isn't the trailer. The first trailer was much shorter. I think this is it http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2jk75_resident-evil-5-teaser-e3-2007-ps3x_ads

      --
      http://www.popularculturegaming.com -- my blog about the culture of videogame players
    2. Re:wtf? by pieisgood · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Remember, It's cool to kill honky ass white bread crackers. Though, The minute you start killing Africans in Africa the gloves are off and it's just plain racism. This is regardless of the fact that blacks with a minority complex are racist towards whites and other races. It's the stupid view that racism is a one way street.

      --
      Eat sleep die
    3. Re:wtf? by lbane · · Score: 1

      A source-engine based mod are having the same fate too.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oA5W5vYIT9E

    4. Re:wtf? by nschubach · · Score: 1

      I'm trying to figure that out myself. It's no more racist than Black Hawk Down was. (And I didn't consider the coverage of real life battles to be a racist action.) I assume that games can no longer take place in tropical climates because you'd have to shoot at Black people?

      Disclaimer: I'm making assumptions as to the racist nature of this video. I may be incorrect as to what exactly offended someone.

      When can we consider games to be completely non-racist? Would you consider a similar game like Left4Dead racist? They included a somewhat generic Caucasian woman, a Caucasian man, a Black man, an old pale skinned man, but no Asians, Eskimos, Latinos, or Native Islanders of any sort that I could identify. Can we consider a game non-racist when every character is purple and pink or when every race in the world is properly represented as a playable character with every race properly distributed equally throughout the game?

      Is it also racist (or accurate) that the Black man in Left 4 Dead speaks in broken English and pronounces Pills like "Piws"? This is an honest question here. If someone is portrayed in game speaking and acting like their real life model in real life... is that racist? I really want to know. Maybe we should start monotone only recording of perfect dialog voices for games from now on to strip out anything that can be perceived as racist tone.

      --
      Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
    5. Re:wtf? by tsq · · Score: 1

      This is because racism is in fact (somewhat of) a one-way street. White people have traditionally been (and still are, by and large) in the privileged position in our society. Thankfully, it's not true to nearly the extent that it was decades ago (although hispanics/arabs seem to have filled that space in America), but ignoring the fact that black people are a historically oppressed class and then whining about how white people have it so bad is either ignorant, stupid, or both.

      --
      This sig is Y2K compliant.
    6. Re:wtf? by pieisgood · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Racism isn't about how bad you have it. Tons of white people are poor and underprivileged. I'd bet they're more likely to be racists than privileged whites. The past is in the past, when you want to get past bad race relations you need address the present. Currently Jesse Jackson and Al sharpton are leading the way to frivolous claims of racism and it's rubbing off on the black populace. This breads a distrust between blacks and whites and plants to seeds of racism. So yeah, it is two way street you're just ignoring the present.

      --
      Eat sleep die
    7. Re:wtf? by tsq · · Score: 1

      You can't just handwave away decades of oppression with phrases like "the past is in the past" and "you need to address the present." Racism in America is an institutionalized problem, which you can see for yourself by looking at e.g. incarceration rates among different ethnicities. This isn't about "how bad you have it," it's about living in a society where masses of people (such as blacks) are systematically oppressed by the way the system itself is structured.

      --
      This sig is Y2K compliant.
    8. Re:wtf? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fine. Then I want affirmative action for the Irish, Italians, and Russians, right now. Oh, and I want a huge public uproar every time a cop is portrayed as an Irish drunkard.

    9. Re:wtf? by anomnomnomymous · · Score: 1

      I don't have acces to the trailer you posted, but the first trailer they released only contained black enemies. No shit, since the game is set in Africa.

      But some overly politically correct people (or as you put it, people who're afraid that they'll be made redundant in the near future) felt it's just not done to only have black enemies.

      I'm still waiting for the organisation who's going to take some drastic actions about all the aliens-racism that has been taking place the last few years in games...

      --
      When you shoot a mime, do you use a silencer?
    10. Re:wtf? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So this somehow justifies killing thousands of white people in video games and other media over the years and screaming racism if they dare publish a single game set in Africa?

      Bull. Nobody is saying white people "have it so bad." What they are saying is be fair in media representation. You know, exactly what everyone of every minority group has been saying, or at least used to be saying. If it is acceptable to have white people portrayed as zombies it is also perfectly acceptable to have other races portrayed that way. It also shouldn't be that surprising that the main character has to kill the zombies to complete the game.

      Racism is a two-way street and saying it is a one-way street is in fact, racist.

      (And as a further note, Whites are not in "the privileged position". For two given people with the same technical backgrounds, Asians will make more money in America than a white person. You can say they are in /a/ privileged position, but not the highest position at all, for male or female.)

    11. Re:wtf? by Rycross · · Score: 1

      Huh? Louis in Left 4 Dead always seemed to pronounce pills as "pills" for me. Actually, one of the things I noticed is that the designers seemed to explicitly avoid the usual stereotypes for Louis. He speaks clearly, is pretty well dressed, and is a systems analyst in the IT department. Its actually kind-of refreshing character because its explicitly not stereotypical. Well, except that Left 4 Dead focuses more on the gameplay than the (non-existent) plot, so those kind of details tend to be irrelevant.

    12. Re:wtf? by nschubach · · Score: 1

      Open your sound files in the game folder \sound\player\survivor\voice\Manager

      Listen to CoverMe07, 08, 09, 10 .. the L in heal sounds like a W.

      Dying04: "I need hewp right the helw now."

      FriendlyFire06: "Hey man, that's not coo'."

      GenericResponses25: "Teww me you aint serious."
      GenericResponses39: "Oh no. Aint no damn way."

      Hurrah05: "We gon' be ok."
      Hurrah07: "Man, I think we gon' make it."

      ImWithYou02: "Right behin' you."

      KillConfirmation05: "Keewd it."

      NiceJob07: "Oh, that was off the chain!" (whatever that means...)

      RadioUsedTruck01: "...now we just got ta ho-don..."

      ReviveFriend18/19: "I never saw nobody take that much abuse and live..."

      ReviveFriendB14: "You be fine girl."

      Swears16: "That's some country ass bullshit."

      TakePills02: "Grabbing Piws" (this is the one I was referring to)

      Thanks12: "Thanks dawg"
      Thanks14: "Thanks playa"

      WaitHere05: ".. ho dup."

      WarnCareful07: "We gotta be careful."

      WitchGettingAngry02: "...witch aint gon' sit still..."

      WorldFarmHouseNPC01: "Ya-i betcha country ass does like this trailer."

      WorldSmallTown0408: "Church still got it's lights on."

      I didn't include all the "Jesus", "Bro", and "Man" phrases.

      Granted... He's not the only one with some questionable sounds and he DOES have some very clear sound files. It's just that these have played a lot for me, or they seem to stand out more for some reason.

      --
      Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
    13. Re:wtf? by Rycross · · Score: 1

      Interesting. I can't do your test because I have the XBox version. I'm going off of memory here, but I don't the l->w thing at all, and a lot of those I don't remember. Some of them are different than I remember. For example, I remember "ho dup" being more like "hold up" and "You be fine, girl" as "You'll be fine, girl". I will have to pay special attention to the dialog the next time I play the game.

  17. sore butt ? by unity100 · · Score: 0, Redundant

    take a chill pill. it works.

  18. Hmm... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I think the article has a fair point, in certain respects(Sure, even in the far future of human colonization, when we're rubbing shoulders with aliens, the black guy will be muscle-bound and jive talking. Good work guys). It certainly wouldn't hurt and it might even help in terms of atmosphere, to say nothing of social objectives, for games to do some slightly subtler thinking on that one. I found Firefly's setting rather interesting for that reason: the visible population actually looked and sounded somewhat like you'd expect the descendants of a grab-bag of human colonists would look and sound like, rather than the brits that happened to be available as extras(plus Lando, yes, I'm talking about Star Wars).

    Now, this doesn't mean that all games ought to be triumphal portrayals of racial togetherness. Various sorts of strife on the point have cropped up in human history, and continue to do so, and are in principle legitimate gameplay elements as well. Arguably, in traditional scifi and fantasy settings, a lot of stuff about race is already there, just sublimated into orcs and aliens.

    One thing, though, struck me as rather seriously flawed with the thinking of some of those interviewed: they seemed to view the game making as a means to an overtly propagandistic end. Games(as well as films, books, etc.) that labor under a heavy moral frequently suck, no matter how good or bad the moral itself might be. At best, propaganda games tend to be attention getting, good for a few rounds of play; but ultimately mediocre as games(The Japanese Cetacean Research Simulator, Operation PedoPriest, and similar come to mind). It is certainly possible to make a good, or even great, game that also has a moral of some sort; but only if you start with the game and weave the moral in seamlessly. If you start with the moral and try to build a game, or start with a game and tack on the moral, you are screwed.

    In particular, if your tactic is to simply take an existing work and hack your moral onto it, the product is likely to be weak and, I would argue, even counterproductive. Take Guitar Praise as an example. Straight guitar hero clone, with "christian" hacked onto it. Whatever you think about christianity, that is weak. It essentially says: "My religion is too sensitive for me to play a game with music that doesn't pander to it; but it also presents no compelling alternative to secular culture, so I'm just going to play a shitty clone with the offensive stuff clipped out." C'mon, either play guitar hero or come up with something that is genuinely inspired by, and an organic product of, your faith. Slapping a decal on somebody else's cultural product just makes you look uncreative and horribly thin skinned.

    Praise hero is merely a dramatic example of this, I'm not singling out christianity specifically. Anybody who says: "We need an alternative to X"; but then turns around and produces a simple copy of X with a few words replaced is guilty of this. If you want to change something, you have to do more than rebrand it. From the tone of the interview, it sounded like some of those interviewed were going down the path of "games are too white, therefore we will make black versions of existing games." That is a weak approach at best(this works the other way as well, the fact that the guys at Resistance Records could only puke out a derivative fourth rate shooter just makes them look pathetic.)

    1. Re:Hmm... by DreamsAreOkToo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      In particular, if your tactic is to simply take an existing work and hack your moral onto it, the product is likely to be weak and, I would argue, even counterproductive. Take Guitar Praise [guitarpraise.com] as an example. Straight guitar hero clone, with "christian" hacked onto it. Whatever you think about christianity, that is weak. It essentially says: "My religion is too sensitive for me to play a game with music that doesn't pander to it; but it also presents no compelling alternative to secular culture, so I'm just going to play a shitty clone with the offensive stuff clipped out." C'mon, either play guitar hero or come up with something that is genuinely inspired by, and an organic product of, your faith. Slapping a decal on somebody else's cultural product just makes you look uncreative and horribly thin skinned.

      The Slashdot crowd so often claims to be so enlightened on the religion issue, and claims to have such valuable insights on religion over and over, and then accuses spiritual people of holding ignorant and biased beliefs. Well guess what, my spirituality comes under fire all the time and I have to defend it at work, to my friends and to my family.

      I really want you to examine your post. First of all, I went to the website you linked, and it IS NOT filled with Jack Chick propaganda, like you'd lead people to believe. It's almost *exactly* what I'd expect a non-christian video game website to be. Nowhere on the website did it give me any indication that they thought "My religion is too sensitive for me to play a game with music that doesn't pander to it." Secondly, it's all Christian music, so fucking what? Guitar Hero released an all Aerosmith game! Would you prefer that they put a bunch of Christian music into Guitar Hero? Third, you say they made some cheap knockoff clone, like this is somehow unique to the industry. Lets see, we're looking at Guitar Hero, Rock Band, Rock Band World Tour, and Wii Music. After DDR came out, a bunch of other dancing games came out. Sure, innovation is great, but it is rare and acting like it isn't, is just ignorant.

      Yes, it might be getting dangerously close to copyright infringement, but that isn't part of your argument. Yes, there are OTHER religious games and people that spout awful propaganda, but you picked to smear one that I think is being respectful. Smearing Guitar Praise for being Christian is as bad as religious people smearing Spore for promoting evolutionary concepts.

    2. Re:Hmm... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If I'm going to pay $50 for a game, I'd like it to feature songs I am interested in, rather than songs that you think I should be interested in. What you call uncreative and thin skinned, I call a consumer preference.

    3. Re:Hmm... by vishbar · · Score: 1

      Did you read the "What Others Are Saying" page? (http://www.guitarpraise.com/others.php)

      Here's a gem:

      "This is a great product. I waited so long because I refused to let the secular guitar hero in my house and it was worth the wait. I was hooked the first night. I sure hope and will be believing that you will be coming out with a Praise Rock Band. Keep up the great work and may God continue to bless your ministry!!!"

      --
      Ride the skies
    4. Re:Hmm... by CFTM · · Score: 1

      Uh, welcome to capitalism buddy. I'm not a big fan of the Christian Conglomerate at the moment, particularly being a resident of California. All that being said, Guitar Praise is a cheap rip off but cheap rip offs are everywhere in a free market. They have every right to produce this game.

      Isn't Rock Band just a stupid guitar hero knock off as well?

      Don't lose the forest for the trees my friend...

    5. Re:Hmm... by CFTM · · Score: 1

      You don't prove anything with this hombre...just that you're looking for a reason to knock the product. This individual is as entitled to their beliefs as you and I are. I certainly don't agree with the comment, but there's nothing vicious or implying bigotry in the statement. If they were attempting to get Guitar Hero taken off the market, I'd have a problem but as long as they keep to their insular little world and don't tell me how to live my life, I'll pay them the same respect.

    6. Re:Hmm... by vishbar · · Score: 1
      I was mainly taking issue with the GGP's comment:

      Nowhere on the website did it give me any indication that they thought "My religion is too sensitive for me to play a game with music that doesn't pander to it."

      --
      Ride the skies
    7. Re:Hmm... by Longstaff · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Reviews: http://www.guitarpraise.com/reviews.php/

      There are many video games that I've reviewed for Plugged In that I wouldn't let my kids--or anyone's kids, if I had such power--get within a country mile of.

      "My views are so obviously correct that nobody should be allowed to hold others..."

      Nope. That doesn't smack of ignorance or bias.

    8. Re:Hmm... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Secondly, it's all Christian music, so fucking what?

      So the music itself is a hacked rip-off of "Non-Christian" music. Placed into hacked ripoff of a "Non-Christian" game.

      Of course, the Christian Bible itself is a hacked rip-off of Judaism and early A.D. Christian writings, so I guess it's just par for the course.

      You also said, "Well guess what, my spirituality comes under fire all the time and I have to defend it at work, to my friends and to my family."

      That's probably due to the fact that most people who claim to follow a religion & say they are spiritual really mean that they adhere to a certain dogma or creed. Religion/Spirituality exist without dogma or creed, and most people who follow a dogma or creed do so without any true spirituality.

      In addition, if you adhere to the Christian Bible, it specifically says to keep your mouth shut and lead by example- something that few Christians actually adhere to.

    9. Re:Hmm... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Slashdot crowd so often claims to be so enlightened on the religion issue, and claims to have such valuable insights on religion over and over, and then accuses spiritual people of holding ignorant and biased beliefs. Well guess what, my spirituality comes under fire all the time and I have to defend it at work, to my friends and to my family.

      I've read this statement three times and still dont know what your point is. most slashdoters seem to be either atheist or just simply to not believe in organised religion. you then say "guess what... blah blah blah I have to defend my beliefs to all these people who think I'm a raving luny." what exactly are you trying to convey? that slashdots view on religion is closer to that of the public then we realise? I'd love it if that were true, but looking at fundy america it's sadly not. so what the fuck are you trying to say? "oh look at me. i believe in religion and people (rightly) give me shit for it. slashdot is mean and I dont like you guys"?

    10. Re:Hmm... by Stormie · · Score: 1

      The Slashdot crowd so often claims to be so enlightened on the religion issue, and claims to have such valuable insights on religion over and over, and then accuses spiritual people of holding ignorant and biased beliefs. Well guess what, my spirituality comes under fire all the time and I have to defend it at work, to my friends and to my family.

      You know, you wouldn't have to defend your beliefs nearly so often if they weren't so ignorant and biased.

    11. Re:Hmm... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ahhhh my head hurts.
      Why can't we just put some religious music into guitar hero instead of seperating everything? It's not as if playing one Christian/Jewish/Buddhist/Muslim etc. song is going to make an atheist shrivel up and die, or will make a religious girl like me magically morph into an atheist. Isn't Guitar Hero about experiencing music? Religious music is music too.

      Finally, whether game makers are trying to be racist or not, the end product can still be racist. Our environments shape us, whether we like it or not. That's why we all need to think where we come from, where we're going, and what affects us--- as well as what affects other people. RE5 was the result on ignorance, since the game makers did not understand the intense reality of genocide/civil war in parts of Africa. Ignoring those realities is also ignoring how uneducated many Americans are about these issues, and feeding the public yet another negative view of Africans. This is especially dangerous given that many Americans are already predisposed to view Africans as negative, "primitive," and as racially alike. I'm not saying churn out positive views of Africans... just to think if another negative portrayal is really neccessary.

      I'm also not saying anyone is racist or the has the obligation to create politically correct games. But the game maker owes it to him or herself to think about what they release into the world they draw their inspiration from.

      - Roxy the not-so-Anon-Anon and constant lurker (roxythekiller@yahoo.com)

  19. Mod parent troll by Kuukai · · Score: 1

    You do realize you're comparing a concept of "race" with roots in mythology and folklore thousands of years old to a modern understanding of race based on scientific discoveries, right? Back then, the various parts of Europe thought of each other as different species. There are next to no actual differences across the "races" in the real world, most of the perceived ones are just stereotypes. That is the difference here.

    --
    Sendou Wave Kick!!
    1. Re:Mod parent troll by Collapsing+Empire · · Score: 1

      Uh, no.

      Scientific discoveries have, in fact, validated the concept of race.

      http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/11/european-population-structure-with-300k.html

      Differences?

      How about "The Bell Curve"? How about things like athletic ability, lactose tolerance, and ability to survive in areas with little (or alot) of sunlight?

      Yeah, no differences!!

    2. Re:Mod parent troll by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and how about the inability to write proper english. your kind are so ignorant...they don't even know that a lot are 2 words! they spell it alot!

      those savages are practically living in trees!

  20. TF2 "demoman" by AtariDatacenter · · Score: 0, Troll

    I never ran across racism in a video game until Team Fortress 2's Demoman. Some people really seem to have a problem with that character.

    1. Re:TF2 "demoman" by hoogamaphone · · Score: 0, Troll

      \sarcasm I know, TF2 is racist against Scottish people. Oh, just because the Demoman is Scottish, he has to be an alcoholic? Those bigots over at valve better get their act together.

    2. Re:TF2 "demoman" by jack2000 · · Score: 1

      No, we have a problem with the Demoman because of his pipebombs and his imbalanced stickys. The "black Irish cyclops" is a jab at PC.

  21. Anti-Political correctness video game by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Zog's nightmare free download:

    http://www.zogsnightmare.com/index!.htm

  22. Re:First by ChromeAeonium · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Racism is a lot like the Bible code: if you look hard enough, you can find it anywhere.

  23. Postal 2 by MacColossus · · Score: 1

    So I should be ashamed for playing Postal 2 as a M-16 toting Gary Coleman shooting a likeness of Osama Bin Laden? I guess if I didn't game on a Mac I might have healthier game choices available. :-) http://gopostal.com/postal2/screenshots/gary.jpg

  24. Re:Blacks have too much power by zarthrag · · Score: 4, Interesting

    ... ...
    (I'm not sure if I should just play it off and laugh because you're probably kidding, or simply open fire.)

    I'm a developer who works *damn* hard at what I do. It wasn't some affirmative-action crap either - I just kick ass.
    I didn't/don't do every woman on the block, and I don't have aids.
    I didn't grow up in "the hood" - (hell, my graduating class was 36.)
    I rake in the bucks.
    I own my home.
    I spend as much time as I can with my family.
    I'm black.

    Seems to me, the only downside is having to listen to people like you spew bile because you're too fucking stupid to climb out of the rut you're in.

    Japan has been recessed for awhile and has the highest suicide rate in the world - I'm sure work has a lot to do with it.
    China, lets not talk about China too much. Maybe the coal-mine near your trailer park is hiring?

    This is a country where with just a little opportunity can go a long way. But only for people who don't spend their time doing what you're doing: nothing.

    --
    Why can't all fpga/microcontroller manufacturers just release free optimizing compilers???
  25. nigger by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    that's right, nigger.

  26. There's more than one kind of racism. by Lord+Kano · · Score: 5, Interesting

    There's active racism. It's the virulent kind. The asshole with shaved heads attacking people on the street.

    There's passive racism. It's just as evil, but not as out in the open. It's the asshole in a suit and tie who prefers to hire certain kinds of people for certain kinds of jobs.

    There's latent racism. It's in no way malignant. It's when someone honestly doesn't think about races or and differences between them, but they can accidentally say something stupid or offensive. Like when Tony Snow made his "tar baby" comment.

    In video game development, I see latent racism. In many games all of the central characters are white. The game developers probably never even though about racial issues. They just made a game. Being rendered invisible is almost as hurtful as being actively discriminated against. In the first several GTA games the central character is white. In San Andreas, the central characters are almost all black and THAT'S when people notice. I salute Rockstar for making an effort.

    LK

    --
    "Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
    1. Re:There's more than one kind of racism. by AnonGCB · · Score: 1

      Wait, are you complaining that the main character was black, and stealing cars and shit? That the developers were being racist when they were just trying to change something up a bit? Sorry, I'm just unclear on this and if you're being an idiot I want to make sure I, and others, are aware of it. If you're saying that people are dumb for caring what color the main character is, feel free to disregard this.

      --
      http://CryoLANparty.com/ A lan I'm staff on!
    2. Re:There's more than one kind of racism. by Grym · · Score: 1

      In video game development, I see latent racism. In many games all of the central characters are white. The game developers probably never even though about racial issues. They just made a game. Being rendered invisible is almost as hurtful as being actively discriminated against.

      Videogames are made by companies which are acutely aware of how sensitive some people are to issues related to race. So they take the simple solution and attempt to avoid it altogether by making most--if not all--of the characters white. Take, for example, Farcry 2, a game which takes place in Africa and thematically similar to the movie Blood Diamond. The game hardly has any Africans in it! Do you think this is a coincidence or a shrewd business decision to avoid the controversy and maximize sales?

      Finding all the various ways to be offended is practically a cottage industry. People who sit around thinking about all the various types and sub-types of conscious and unconscious racism can (and will) find it anywhere. The best a company can hope for in these situations is being branded a "latent racist," so that's what they do.

      In the first several GTA games the central character is white. In San Andreas, the central characters are almost all black and THAT'S when people notice. I salute Rockstar for making an effort.

      San Andreas may have been the first GTA game with a black central character, and it will probably also be the last. At the time, Rockstar took a lot of flak for San Andreas because of it's "racism". People said it was a stereotypical depiction of "black youths reveling in street crime" with storylines which advocated a subtle, insidious brand of racism. I'm unsure if that would be classified as active or passive racism, but I do know that most companies would rather not try and walk that impossible tightrope. I don't blame them.

      -Grym

    3. Re:There's more than one kind of racism. by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 1

      There's passive racism. It's just as evil, but not as out in the open. It's the asshole in a suit and tie who prefers to hire certain kinds of people for certain kinds of jobs.

      Seriously? After Obama is just elected President of the US, you're still going to try to tell me that there's some deep, malignant racism here? How many times has Michael Jordan been on the cover of Sports Illustrated? How about Denzel Washington being voted sexiest man alive? Ever play Guild Wars: Nightfall (African themed Guild Wars campaign)?

      You really need to look more closely if you think there are only Caucasian characters in games.

      Let's point out racism where it well and truly exists. There are always going to be stupid and evil people. But crying wolf has never helped a cause.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    4. Re:There's more than one kind of racism. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I think there is a fourth type: perceived racism.

      We had a woman say "Which little monkey left a banana on my desk?" This was a perfectly innocent remark, but the banana happened to belong to a black woman.

      A bit stupid, yes, but I hesitate to call that "latent racism" because the comment was not intended as a slur, but as a comment on the banana itself. Monkeys eat bananas. If it had been a peanut, she might have said elephant.

      I call it perceived racism, because someone (probably racist themselves) looking for a fight would have jumped on it in a heartbeat even though there was nothing racist about it. Fortunately the woman in question recognized it for what it was and actually chuckled a bit.

      I've done some of this myself. We had a "gang" that called themselves the Suburban Jungle Bunnies. At the time I hadn't ever even heard the term "jungle bunny". Well, this gang did something I didn't like, I don't recall what, and I said "I hate the Suburban Jungle Bunnies," referring to the gang. I was a little taken aback when all the people around me looked shocked. Someone had to explain it to me.

      Latent racism is cultural. I've said a couple things that qualify in my life. As a kid I once asked my friend if he was trying to "Jew" me out of something. It never occurred to me that it referred to Jewish people. Well, until a Jew in earshot took offense to it. The comment was made out of ignorance not malignance, but its source was racism. The comment was learned from others around me who said it, some of whom were undoubtedly racist or learned the term from people who were.

      I don't see that as the same thing as simply not thinking about racial issues. I think not seeing race is generally a good thing. It's just that we've got some of these built-in biases (or even just expressions without the biases), so if we're not thinking about our own attitudes towards race, that's when it becomes a problem.

      Anyway, I'm kind of rambling at this point, but what I'm trying to say is that even "latent racism" might not be racist at all and in both cases people who feel they are on the receiving end of this might be wise not to take the comment at apparent value. I certainly appreciated the people who brought the comments to my attention, but I can certainly imagine the uproar that would have been caused had I said them around the wrong people.

    5. Re:There's more than one kind of racism. by 4D6963 · · Score: 1

      There's active racism. It's the virulent kind. The asshole with shaved heads attacking people on the street.

      There's passive racism. It's just as evil

      Really, so basically lynching people is about as bad as not hiring some people? Besides, it's too easy to just label 'racist' someone who has a 'problem' with a so-called race, not try to understand and come up with canned explanations like "it's just hate", "he's just being ignorant" or " happened in his childhood that made him like this". It's too easy and it doesn't help.

      What people label 'racism' can be, contrarily to what many like to think, justifiable. Justifications vary depending on people's reasons for thinking what they do, but it can be discomfort with other races, not knowing anyone of the other race and therefore thinking of that group as a foreign group you're too unfamiliar with to be comfortable. It can be just a bad image, an image of hardly overcomeable differences, an image of hostility/non-acceptance, a shock of cultures, and so on... A white guy in a suit isn't necessarily evil because he won't hire the black guy to be his assistant, for possibly any of the aforementioned reasons.

      But just saying "it's evil" and closing the case doesn't help understanding the problem a bit, and you can't fix a problem you don't understand. A lot of people think that the way to deal with this problem is to make certain opinions so unacceptable that people fear expressing them, by fear of sounding "evil". Getting people to shut up about what they, in a way, identify as societal issues, won't do anything to help fix the problem. You can shut up about that stomach ache by fear of sounding like a pansy, but that won't prevent you from eventually throwing up. So if you don't listen, you won't know what to do besides make people want to shut up. But if you heed a bit of my insight, you can now see that some solutions can involve familiarising groups people together from an early age, making people realise that antagonisms and hostility are greatly exaggerated, and educating people about all the different cultures they might encounter out there as to allow them to understand and even feel familiar with them.

      Oh and as for characters being white, the thing is, be it in movies or video games, you pretty much *need* a reason to make a non-white hero, particularly in some countries such as the USA. Nobody flips a coin to decide the 'race' of characters, and hardly anyone picks random races without even thinking of it, you'll just pick a white guy unless you have a reason not to.

      --
      You just got troll'd!
    6. Re:There's more than one kind of racism. by Pogdranaut · · Score: 1, Insightful

      It's the asshole in a suit and tie who prefers to hire certain kinds of people for certain kinds of jobs.

      You mean affirmative action ?

    7. Re:There's more than one kind of racism. by turing_m · · Score: 1

      Then there is hypocritical kind of racism, which implies that there is something shameful about making a game where all the characters are mainly one race while making a game where all the characters are mainly another is to be praised to the heavens.

      --
      If I have seen further it is by stealing the Intellectual Property of giants.
    8. Re:There's more than one kind of racism. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm 6'10 and have red hair. Have you ever seen such a beast in literature, games, movies or on TV?

      Can you imagine how hurtful it is for me to be rendered invisible?

    9. Re:There's more than one kind of racism. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So what category does Jessy Jackson fit into?

      - He called New York city, "Himey Town"
      - He called TheMessiah a "N*****" (yeah, I don't bring myself to say it, get over it)

    10. Re:There's more than one kind of racism. by FatalTourist · · Score: 1

      Let's stop the hate. This one's for the kids. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sD42OpY5vu4

      --


      Escape Pod Films: Sketch Comedy and Web Series
    11. Re:There's more than one kind of racism. by Cro+Magnon · · Score: 1

      Yup. I've heard of people taking offense at the saying "calling a spade a spade". I've often said that without even thinking about color.

      --
      Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
    12. Re:There's more than one kind of racism. by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There's latent racism. It's in no way malignant. It's when someone honestly doesn't think about races or and differences between them, but they can accidentally say something stupid or offensive. Like when Tony Snow made his "tar baby" comment.

      There's also "invented racism", like then people got worked up over Tony Snow's use of "tar baby". I have never, not once, heard that used as a racial epithet. Instead, I'd always heard it used exactly like Snow meant it: as a metaphor to the Uncle Remus story. It never would have occurred to me that someone could have interpreted that any other way. Same with "niggardly" which was never racist until someone decided to be offended by it.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    13. Re:There's more than one kind of racism. by twosmokes · · Score: 1

      I have never, not once, heard that used as a racial epithet.

      You need to hang out with more racists. That's the only context of the phrase that I was aware of.

    14. Re:There's more than one kind of racism. by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      You need to hang out with more racists.

      I'd prefer not to, thanks. The bigger point is that even if a small group of people co-opts a term, society doesn't automatically discard it. Even if PETA uses "meat" as a deliberate epithet, I'll still eat it and find it tasty.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    15. Re:There's more than one kind of racism. by twosmokes · · Score: 1

      I think there's a slight difference between the term tar-baby and meat. But go ahead and run around saying tar-baby, I don't really care. I agree with your larger point, I'm just flabbergasted that you'd never heard tar-baby in a racist context.

    16. Re:There's more than one kind of racism. by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      I agree with your larger point, I'm just flabbergasted that you'd never heard tar-baby in a racist context.

      Not even once, and that's with growing up in a relatively southern state. I had to look it up to know what it was even supposed to mean (outside the Uncle Remus metaphor).

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    17. Re:There's more than one kind of racism. by GameMaster · · Score: 0

      Just because you've never heard it before in common usage doesn't mean it's not a, virulently, racist statement. Someone in a communications position like Tony Snow should have been familiar with the term and known enough not to use it. The reason you've never heard the term used much is that it is, relatively, archaic. It's kind of like the phrase "rule of thumb" which originally referred to the practice of being legally allowed to beat your wife with a stick no thicker than your thumb. The important difference is that "rule of thumb" was a term that lost its original meaning hundreds of years ago in England while "tar baby" is a term that was in general use, in this country, up to a few decades ago and still is used in some places. Yes, that is an important distinction. Should Snow, or you, be ran out of town on a rail for using the phrase? No, but someone that uses it should be willing to apologize for, inadvertently, using the term without knowing the meaning (assuming they aren't, intentionally, contrarian and don't mind being considered a racist). As for niggardly, assuming the usage isn't in a context where the user is making a sideways slur, I agree with you that the issue is more on the part of an ignorant person being offended and that the person who should be apologizing is the one who first yelled racism.

      As for your comment further down about PETA, hypothetically, deciding to use "meat" as a swear word, I don't find the comparison valid. "tar baby" has always had racist connotations to it, since the original stories were written. The original writer may not have intended to insult anyone, but the tone of the stories was, in fact, paternalistically racist much like Rudyard Kipling's "white man's burden" attitude. You can try to excuse it by saying "oh, that was just the way things were back then" but, then again, slavery was "the way things were back then" too and that doesn't make it any less wrong. The best comparison I can make (and the first thing I thought about when I read your post) is a scene from the movie Clerks 2 where the stupid one from the main character duo decides he needs to take the term "porch monkey" "back for the white man". His grandma had called him as a child so he doesn't see it as a racist statement. The absurdity of the scene; what his co-workers can't convince him of; and what matches with your comment is that his grandmother was racist and there never was a non-racist meaning of the term. What this means for you is that every time you've heard someone use that term in your life they are, most likely without knowing it, making racists statements just like the comment you replied to suggested.

      --

      Rules of Conduct:
      #1 - The DM is always right.
      #2 - If the DM is wrong, see rule #1
    18. Re:There's more than one kind of racism. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You know that the Africa-American/Black/whatever they want to be called nowadays community would have complained about the central character being black in the first GTA, saying it portrays them as being criminals.

    19. Re:There's more than one kind of racism. by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's kind of like the phrase "rule of thumb" which originally referred to the practice of being legally allowed to beat your wife with a stick no thicker than your thumb.

      No, that's not what it meant, which goes exactly back to my original premise. People look for reasons to be offended by things that are not inherently offensive, apparently for the sake of being righteously offended.

      What this means for you is that every time you've heard someone use that term in your life they are, most likely without knowing it, making racists statements just like the comment you replied to suggested.

      That is utter bullshit. Racism does not exist without intent, at least at the subconscious level. Look at a list of ethnic slurs. Does your wife shop Ann Taylor? Bought anything by Apple? Like to eat brownies? Look at a celestial map? Ever chug a beer? Play eight ball? Drink gin? Each of those contains a word that some jackass or another is bound to find offensive in any context.

      Tony Snow obviously and clearly did not mean that he did not "want to hug [a black child] of trying to comment on the program", and neither does Apple Computer mean to disparage American Indians. I ate an Oreo yesterday, but if you draw racist undertones from that or any of the other examples, then the problem is yours and not mine.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    20. Re:There's more than one kind of racism. by Shotgun · · Score: 1

      There's also moocher racism. That's where someone of one of the declared 'oppressed' classes is on the constant lookout for something to be offended by.

      There's also opportunistic racism. That's where the poverty pimps constantly wait for someone to be offended so they can swoop in and proclaim how they are defending the poor oppressed person.

      As someone of neither the majority power class or the 'oppressed' power class, I find the constant "oh my, I'm so oppressed" to be mostly humorous.

      --
      Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
      Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
    21. Re:There's more than one kind of racism. by Lord+Kano · · Score: 1

      Wait, are you complaining that the main character was black, and stealing cars and shit?

      No. Nearly everyone in every GTA game has been a rotten criminal. I don't think that it was racism to set the game in a fictionalized version of 1990s South Central LA.

      That the developers were being racist when they were just trying to change something up a bit?

      No. The opposite in fact. It was nice to not be invisible anymore.

      LK

      --
      "Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
    22. Re:There's more than one kind of racism. by Lord+Kano · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Seriously? After Obama is just elected President of the US, you're still going to try to tell me that there's some deep, malignant racism here? How many times has Michael Jordan been on the cover of Sports Illustrated? How about Denzel Washington being voted sexiest man alive?

      How many times have I been pulled over for bullshit reasons?

      In the minds of many of his supporters, Obama isn't "black" he's "biracial"
      As far as Jordan and Denzel, since days of Jim Crowe it was perfectly acceptable for black people to be entertainers and athletes. Jack Johnson was heavyweight champion nearly 100 years ago. Does that mean that there was no racism then either? Duke Ellington used to make piles of money playing before segregated audiences.

      LK

      --
      "Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
    23. Re:There's more than one kind of racism. by Lord+Kano · · Score: 1

      Positive discrimination is still discrimination.

      LK

      --
      "Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
    24. Re:There's more than one kind of racism. by Lord+Kano · · Score: 1

      Yes. In "The 13th Warrior".

      LK

      --
      "Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
    25. Re:There's more than one kind of racism. by Lord+Kano · · Score: 1

      Jesse Jackson is a racist AND an asshole.

      He does get a pass for using the "N word" though.

      LK

      --
      "Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
    26. Re:There's more than one kind of racism. by Lord+Kano · · Score: 1

      Really, so basically lynching people is about as bad as not hiring some people?

      Yes.

      Justifications vary depending on people's reasons for thinking what they do, but it can be discomfort with other races, not knowing anyone of the other race and therefore thinking of that group as a foreign group you're too unfamiliar with to be comfortable.

      And that, sir, is racism.

      A white guy in a suit isn't necessarily evil because he won't hire the black guy to be his assistant, for possibly any of the aforementioned reasons.

      If he won't hire the black person solely because that person is black, yes he is evil.

      Oh and as for characters being white, the thing is, be it in movies or video games, you pretty much *need* a reason to make a non-white hero, particularly in some countries such as the USA.

      Why? Nearly 40% of the people in this country are non-white. In 20 years it'll be 60%.

      Nobody flips a coin to decide the 'race' of characters, and hardly anyone picks random races without even thinking of it, you'll just pick a white guy unless you have a reason not to.

      And that is the latent racism that I was referring to.

      LK

      --
      "Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
    27. Re:There's more than one kind of racism. by Lord+Kano · · Score: 1

      As someone of neither the majority power class or the 'oppressed' power class, I find the constant "oh my, I'm so oppressed" to be mostly humorous.

      Maybe this is racist on my part. But I take it that you're asian.

      LK

      --
      "Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
    28. Re:There's more than one kind of racism. by FiloEleven · · Score: 1

      Like when Tony Snow made his "tar baby" comment.

      I agree with your point, but you picked an awful example of latent racism. Tar baby is not broadly used as a racist term and in fact had no racist connotations until relatively recently. Certainly now that an issue has been made of it, it's wiser to avoid its usage, but Tony Snow was not being racist when he used it. If his words hadn't been broadcast to whatever little corner of the US in which it is considered to be a racist term, nobody would have noticed the difference.

      The word "niggardly" has undergone a similar transformation for similar reasons: both of them could be mistaken for racist by someone unfamiliar with their usage, yet neither one is the slightest bit racist in origin. Shit happens.

      I'd love to be helpful and come up with a replacement example but I'm drawing a blank at the moment.

    29. Re:There's more than one kind of racism. by AnonGCB · · Score: 1

      Ok, good.

      --
      http://CryoLANparty.com/ A lan I'm staff on!
    30. Re:There's more than one kind of racism. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The point I was making is that an ignorance of black culture caused Tony Snow to say something that was not in any way racist but was offensive to many people.

      I'm going to make an assumption, please forgive me if I'm wrong. I assume that you're not black. I assume this because you seem to be unaware of the use of "Tar Baby" in the black community. It's a slur used against darker skinned black people. I have heard the term used that way.

      Internalized racism is a crazy thing in the black community. It's not as bad as it used to be, but there are all kinds of internal divisions. Darker vs Lighter skinned blacks or Kinky vs Straight hair. Rural vs Urban. Norther vs Southern.

      None of that directly applies to the current discussion, but there is a big difference between Tar Baby and niggardly.

      LK
      Not logged in because I'm on an unsecured wireless network.

    31. Re:There's more than one kind of racism. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      White people are the invisible ones. We don't really have a recognised culture because we are viewed as the benchmark and other races and cultures are compared to us.

      We're like the meat in the sausage at the other end of the grinder. The other cultures of the world just haven't been through the mincer yet.

    32. Re:There's more than one kind of racism. by Draek · · Score: 1

      Ever play Guild Wars: Nightfall (African themed Guild Wars campaign)?

      Ahh, Guild Wars. My personal favorite MMO, and one game that avoids this whole "racism" bullshit by providing entire campaigns based on certain races' historical backgrounds. Alas, there's just one problem with that: the Latin American-based campaign is a fuckin' expansion, which means you cannot create new characters on it, and even that is shared with the norse. So while there's plenty of blacks, asians and european-looking characters in the game, your only option for a latino guy is to create a dark-but-not-so-much character on the other expansions and ignore campaign-specific facial features for the sake of roleplaying.

      If I were a bloody idiot, I'd be screaming "racism!" at the top of my lungs. Alas, I am not, and as such are content to play good ol' whites in Aztec-themed armor ;)

      --
      No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
    33. Re:There's more than one kind of racism. by FiloEleven · · Score: 1

      You're right, my skin actually glows in the dark =) I wrote "not broadly used as a racist term" on purpose--I assumed it was a pretty localized, regional thing, which is what my post is based on. If I'm wrong then I'm wrong, no shocker there. Just make sure you're not assuming that because you have heard it in your local black community it's something that is widespread enough to be recognized as offensive.

      The only reason I continue to belabor the point is that I think there is a difference between an ignorance of a fairly local cultural phrase and latent racism. Even if I am wrong and "tar baby" is a nationally-known slur, I find it hard to label that ignorance as latent racism. It's kind of like a backwater British guy asking if you know where to find a pack of fags: that statement could offend gay people who overhear it, but his ignorance stems from a lack of American cultural contact...and I realize now that that could very well be how you define latent racism. I don't like that definition because it turns simple ignorance into an us-versus-them thing.

      I've still been trying to come up with an example of latent racism that I consider to be solid, but am having no luck. I see latent racism as "unknowingly taking an action, when in a situation with someone of another race, that you would not have taken had he been of the same race." It could be something as simple as tightening your hand around your car keys when passing a [not-your-color] guy on the street. Does that ring true to you, or do you think there is more that I am missing?

    34. Re:There's more than one kind of racism. by Lord+Kano · · Score: 1

      I can't say it authoritatively, but I'm fairly certain that anywhere in America black people know the term as a racial epithet.

      Tony Snow most likely hasn't experienced skin tone based infighitng amongst black people and he wouldn't know that some people will take offense. It's completely innocent on his part. However, there is a reason why he wasn't exposed to black culture.

      I've still been trying to come up with an example of latent racism that I consider to be solid, but am having no luck.

      One of my aunts wrote a book about her childhood and she was taken to an all-white church by the administrators of the orphanage where she grew up. One of the white chilren asked her why she didn't go to the "nigger church" down the street. That child didn't know any better, but it didn't hurt my aunt any less.

      LK

      --
      "Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
    35. Re:There's more than one kind of racism. by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      How many times have I been pulled over for bullshit reasons?

      If it makes you feel any better, I'm (almost pasty) white and I've been pulled over for stupid reasons, too. There are plenty of equal opportunity jerks.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    36. Re:There's more than one kind of racism. by FiloEleven · · Score: 1

      Damn dude, that sucks. I find stories like that just overwhelmingly sad. You've found the example I was looking for though. My last words on the matter:

      Your aunt's disheartening experience is a better example of latent racism because the white kid was using a racial epithet without malice, but intentionally referring to race. Tony Snow was using a phrase that has multiple meanings, and taken in context it should be obvious which meaning he was referring to. It's a shame that the term has been co-opted for nefarious purposes, and now that it's on the radar it would be pretty irresponsible to use it again ("sticky situation" will do just fine, thanks). I can also understand why some people were offended, and it's good that someone pointed it out so that it shouldn't happen again. But I can't equate using "tar baby" in a context that has nothing to do with race with using "nigger church" in any situation. Both stemmed from ignorance, both were innocently done, yet the latter had its roots in malignancy while the former did not, which is why I say the latter is a good example of latent racism.

      Hang on, I finally recalled an example that may be especially widespread at the moment because of Obama's campaign. I don't know how many times I have heard (AFAIK exclusively) white people say, "He's so eloquent" or "He speaks well" when giving him praise. That carries in my opinion an implicit assumption that it is an unusual trait for a black person to possess. I say "may be widespread" because Obama is a pretty fantastic orator by any standard, and he looks particularly good when compared with bumbling Bush and teleprompter-tragedy McCain. Still, having come across that one in the past, I can't help but cringe whenever I hear it.

      Feel free to respond; I'm not trying to cut you off. I think I've explained my perspective as best I can, and quite frankly I don't like defending Tony Snow =) And thanks for the dialogue!

    37. Re:There's more than one kind of racism. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1) Please get lynched as many times as you've been turned down for a job and we'll talk about it again
      2) It is arguably racism, but putting it in a big bag labelled "racism" without understanding what you put in that bag is, well, stupid.
      3) What does evil even mean to you? Are you the type who only sees "good" vs. "evil"?
      4) Why? Well, because of the particular status that coloured people always have had in this country, regardless of their number. A black guy here isn't a guy who happens to be black, he's a black guy, a citizen of Black America, with a black culture, a Black American identity and so on..
      5) See 4, see also my previous points about labelling stuff racism all the time.

    38. Re:There's more than one kind of racism. by Lord+Kano · · Score: 1

      What was really funny to me is when Biden called him "Clean".

      Loathe as I may be to quote Chris Rock, but he noticed 12-14 years ago that when many white people of Colin Powell it was often heard that "He speaks so well." or "He's so well spoken", Chris's response was that was the kind of thing you say about retarded people that can talk.

      I happen to agree on the point. My speech is deliberate and I enunciate clearly. Since I was a kid I always wanted to sound like James Earl Jones or Destro from G.I. Joe. I come pretty close. It drives me absolutely crazy when someone thinks that they are paying me a compliment by saying that I "don't sound black". Yes, the implication is that black people are supposed to sound like the crows from Dumbo and that it's noteworthy when one of us doesn't.

      LK

      --
      "Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
    39. Re:There's more than one kind of racism. by Shotgun · · Score: 1

      Native American.

      --
      Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
      Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
    40. Re:There's more than one kind of racism. by Lord+Kano · · Score: 1

      Native Americans are the one group who have a legitimate claim to have gotten it worse here than black people.

      LK

      --
      "Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
    41. Re:There's more than one kind of racism. by Lord+Kano · · Score: 1

      1. Lynchings are no longer tolerated. The kind of people who used to take part in lynchings are now the kind of people who take part in racial discrimination.
      2. There's nothing arguable about it. It is racism.
      3. Evil is malevolence. Any act of malevolence is evil. There are clearly degrees of evil, but a greater evil does not negate the fact that a lesser evil is still evil.
      4. You are incorrect. A "black" guy is man with readily discernable african ancestry. This whole idea of "black culture" is propogated by people with a limited understanding of black people(Yes, some of them are themselves black). There is no one "black culture". It's determined by geographic location, education and financial status. I'm a middle class man from Pittsburgh. I would have little in common with a man from rural Georgia.
      5. Don't be afraid to call a spade a spade, it's racism. As I said, there is more than one kind of racism.

      LK

      --
      "Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
  27. Re:First by fireman+sam · · Score: 4, Funny

    As an escaped convict, I take offense to your generalizations that escaped convicts like to ass rape people.

    --
    it is only after a long journey that you know the strength of the horse.
  28. Re:First by AnonGCB · · Score: 1

    I agree, that is unfunny, and off topic.

    --
    http://CryoLANparty.com/ A lan I'm staff on!
  29. Excellent article! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    For provoking kneejerk anti-PC covertly racist sentiments from the suburban white majority of /. !

  30. Obligatory link by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Racist Checkers: http://www.adultswim.com/games/game/index.html?game=minoriteam_racistcheckers

    Of course, this one's mild compared to their other games. I find it VERY curious that, while GTA and other famous titles are routinely attacked, sites like this are routinely ignored. I wonder why...

    1. Re:Obligatory link by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Probably because you missed the very blatant satire in Minoriteam.

  31. unintentional but nonetheless... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think it's really sort of an unintentional consequence of the fact that the majority of videogame developers are white males, but that doesn't make it less egregious. You take Gears of War 2 for example.
    Cole: My psychological dep consist of a exxajuhrated accent. Bitch.

  32. This is a twitter troll by ub3r+n3u7r4l1st · · Score: 1

    You can read more about that here:

    http://slashdot.org/~SockDisclosure/journal/

    This is a clone of "ibane".

  33. Re:Blacks have too much power by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  34. Career Racism by Longwalker-MGO · · Score: 1

    The only people who would see the Res. Evil 5 trailer as "racist" are those who make a career out of detecting racism and playing a victim, and those who blindly follow their decrees.

  35. Re:Blacks have too much power by LoRdTAW · · Score: 1

    Sir, thank you for feeding the trolls. If you would like to feed them again please pay 1 karma point for another cup of troll food.

    DISCLAIMER:
    **We will not be held responsible for any fingers or mod points lost to snapping or biting trolls.**
    **Always wash your hands after feeding or petting the trolls at the designated washing station.**

    Thanks! And be sure to come again to the Little Slashdotters Troll Farm and Petting Zoo.

  36. Re:Blacks have too much power by zarthrag · · Score: 1

    lol, my apologies. That one just struck a nerve today, I guess.

    --
    Why can't all fpga/microcontroller manufacturers just release free optimizing compilers???
  37. Realism is now required? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In order to be properly realistic, after January 2008 all game "Boss" characters must be black. Otherwise they're being RAAAAAAAAACIST!

  38. quotation in order. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    God is a comedian, playing to an audience too afraid to laugh.
    -- Voltaire

    Racism is political issue, using which people are manipulated for certain groups of interest to gain audience, influence and direct or indirect cashflows pertaining to said activity, but not for benefit of said activity.

    Quit whining people and lets have a laugh and how discriminating we are and how discriminated we are against and lets move on. Slavery is done for and is a new world, where lines are divided not along race boundaries but cleverness & ability.
    Hooting about racism is like talking about differences between horse drawn carriages & current crop of cars.

    Get with the program & be productive. And make babies ... if you are smart & intelligent. (lots of babies, please).

  39. Re:First by Bemopolis · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Racism is a lot like the Bible code: if you look hard enough, you can find it anywhere.

    The racism in the Bible is hardly coded.

    --
    "I guess the moral of the story is, don't paint your airship with rocket fuel." -- Addison Bain
  40. So remember... by KlausBreuer · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ...your PC game must be as PC as possible. It must have a white guy, a black guy, and an asian woman.
    Because, if you don't closely look at races, you're a racist.

    *shakes head* This does not seem to be so much of a problem here in Europe...

    --
    Free PC version of ChipWits at http://www.breueronline.de/klaus/chipwits/
    1. Re:So remember... by laejoh · · Score: 1

      For as long as the white guy and the black guy have tentacles I see nothing wrong with being as PC as possible.

    2. Re:So remember... by twosmokes · · Score: 1

      And making games PC is completely unnecessary. After all there haven't been race riots in Europe in.... weeks.

    3. Re:So remember... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This does not seem to be so much of a problem here in Europe...

      Yeah. Gimme a call the next time Germany elects a Jew or a Turk as head of state. Not that there are too many Jews left in Germany after all that unpleasantness a few decades back. Or have the Germans engaged in enough ritual self-flagellation since 1945 that we can just euphemistically say that the whole "genocide" thing imbued them with some "greater wisdom" about the evils of racism and call it even?

      And feel free to substitute "France" and "Algerian", "England" and "Indian", or "Italy" and "Roma" if you want to.

      Until then, I'm going to call bullshit on this whole "Europeans are so much less racist than those nasty Americans" thing.

    4. Re:So remember... by KlausBreuer · · Score: 1

      Well, Anonymous Coward, I am not all that willing to discuss these things with you - I prefere named users.

      I am willing to say one thing, however: I couldn't care less about what happened here two generations ago. When the war was over, my father was a (very) small child. My grandfather was a doctor in the war.
      Horrible things were done, by all sides. It's history, and I Don't Care. I had no part in it.

      May I suggest a good book to you? It's called "Bury my heart at wounded knee".

      --
      Free PC version of ChipWits at http://www.breueronline.de/klaus/chipwits/
    5. Re:So remember... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      May I suggest a good book to you? It's called "Ordinary Men."

    6. Re:So remember... by KlausBreuer · · Score: 1

      Thank you, AC. This does look like an interesting book, and I've ordered it.

      --
      Free PC version of ChipWits at http://www.breueronline.de/klaus/chipwits/
  41. Activists, get out of my gaming industry by Secret+Rabbit · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm sick and tired of this racism, etc bullshit. It's like they see a "race" being put in a non-flattering light (which is actually relevant to them IRL), but because it's non-flattering, it's racist. Or if certain liberties have been taken, which is ok for *entertainment*, it's racism.

    Gee, a slum in Africa. That's racist! Gee, an Asian with slanted eyes. That's racism! Gee, a *cartoon* of a woman with big breasts. That gives an unhealthy body image! etc. etc. etc.

    It's all bullshit. Every *culture*/*gender*/etc has good and bad points in general. In fact, most comedy is based on these "stereotypes." But, that doesn't make them untrue. It just makes them unpopular in the eyes of a loud few. But, if history tells us anything, the politicians will bow to the loud few and over time, it'll become taboo to speak of it any more. Even though it's pretty much the truth.

    For those that want an example, you just need to think of the term, mentally retarded. It is a very accurate term for the people in which it describes. But, because some people used it in a derogatory way (what wording can't be used that way?), it got "criminalised." And the people that did it were the activists, not even the parents of those in which it described.

    It's a sad that this can happen. And all of it through emotional appeal. God forbid that logic and common sense would enter into it.

  42. RE5 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I really can't understand how someone can call re5 racist. Let's check the facts:
    1) RE series is about zombie-outbreaks
    2) RE5 takes place in africa

    Now, lets try and think: what ever could the race of zombies be in a game that takes place in africa?

    Should they have had white-zombies in africa? And get accused of promoting colonialism?

  43. PC is boring and impossible by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Just how do you make a black character that can't be called either a stereo-type the moment you give him/her anything more then a skin for being black? And if you make him generic, you will be accused of making him white, accused of claiming the only good way to be is to act like a white person.

    Like it or not, stereo-types is what we define race by.

    In the series frasier, there are no black characters except one. Winston, an upper neighbour. I didn't realize he was supposed to be black until later in the series when his mother is introduced. He has no stereo-typical black features other then a dark skin, talks like a brit, acts snobbish, he is in a way whiter then frasier.

    So does he count as black man in a white series OR is he just an actor and his skin color irrelevant as it was to me?

    That is the hard part about creating a character. Just putting a bra on a 3d model doesn't make the player character female. She got to do something feminine. Nothing to complex because we got a game to play but something that CLEARLY makes the it a her. Ask yourself this, Lara Croft. Woman or boy with tits? From the start, she really doesn't act female at all. You do not control her as if she was female. She is you with tits and you is a male. There are other games as well where you play a female but it never really chances the way you play the game. Hell my MMORPG characters tend to be female often for little better reason they look better and obscure less of the scenery. I certainly don't play them as if they were women.

    For that matter, how would I know how to play a woman? I ain't one. Neither am I black. Either a black character I play or interact with is going to have to do something I associate with being black or it is just going to be a skin color with no relevance.

    Skin color having no relevance might be what Martin Luther King dreamed about, it ain't what the PC crowd dreams about. They want minorities to be seen in a positive light. Winston from Frasier ain't a positive minority to me because I never realized he was part of a minority. But how do you accentuate that someone is a minority without adding some stereo-types to show this person is a minority?

    You can't. Lara Croft is not a positive role-model for women because she ain't a woman. She is whoever the player is because her sex never enters into the gameplay. Leisure Suit Larry did that, it changed your character at one point to a female and you played a woman because it stereo-typed you as a slut who used sex to gain access to new areas. You had to think as a "woman" (how many of men can get a doorwoman to allow us in by giving cunninglus?) but not in a way that is exactly positive.

    In GTA, you are a very stereo-typical character, but if you weren't a blacker black then any black person has ever been, how do you get white guys whose closest connection to the hood is that they seen it on tv to play a "black" character? Lets not forget that an awful lot of games allow you to choose your own skin color without it ever making a difference. So either you play a stereo-typical character or a generic "white" avatar with no background.

    Don't mistake basic story telling with a racist agenda. Do people complain that Puss In Boots in Shrek was a speciest slur against dogs? Why can't dogs be shown to be cute and cuddly and capable of wearing boots?

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

    1. Re:PC is boring and impossible by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your grammar and spelling mistakes are causing me physical pain.

    2. Re:PC is boring and impossible by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ask yourself this, Lara Croft. Woman or boy with tits? From the start, she really doesn't act female at all. You do not control her as if she was female. She is you with tits and you is a male.

      Bullshit.

      I'm male, and believe me, if I woke up one morning to find I had a pair of tits like Lara's, I wouldn't go jumping around catacombs for hours on end. I might jump up and down in front of a mirror for a few hours a day, but believe me, no catacombs.

  44. For most people perception is reality... by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

    ... let's not forget that.

    People think that what their minds perceive and read into events is 'the truth', most people are not aware or sophisticated enough to distrust and question their own perceptions. It's something learned through introspection, much reading, and experience... that one cannot trust how one feels/reads or perceives the world all the time, and that much of what we perceive or think we perceive, is riddled with errors throughout. Most people never question their first 'impressions' when they 'perceive' racism.

    As always - people see what they want to see. Think of popular movies or novels, if you asked what was the message of a the movie or novel, you'd get a tonne of different responses, each person reading things into and out of the entertainment experience based on their own psyche and past history.

  45. Re:Blacks have too much power by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    >> We must secure the existence of our people and a future for our children.

    Thanks to political correctness, I don't think you or your associates can be classified as people...

  46. Racial/gender sterotypes by acb · · Score: 3, Insightful

    What constitutes being "black" or "white" beyond skin colour? Does a black character have to dress in a certain way, walk in a certain way, or speak in a certain way to be truly "black"? Also, how do you make a protagonist in an action game "feminine"? Do women jump over ravines in a different way from men?

    If President-elect Obama was a fictional character, would people be accusing him of being essentially a white character hastily written into being tokenistically black because he doesn't dress funky or say "fo'sheezy"?

  47. We want the traditional order by hessian · · Score: 1

    I think in all of us who have read history, there is a desire to find again a sacred order of life as existed in ancient times.

    Part of that is knowing who your tribe are and living among them, people like you, and not others. That tribal definition comprises values, language, customs, and -- uh oh -- heritage.

    To a modern people, told that the only morally correct(tm) society is a pluralistic, multicultural, "freedom"-based one, that is blasphemy. Heresy. Ultimate evil.

    However, many of us -- especially those who read history, and know science and philosophy -- it's clear that our modern civilization is moribund and even more, isn't a pleasant place to live. It rewards the idiotic and subjects us all to it in the name of equality.

    I think it's possible to want a traditional order, including ethnic nationalism, without hating others. It isn't "we're excluding you because you're inferior." It's that we want to live among our own, and that requires we exclude everyone, whether they claim to be superior or inferior.

    That's only one part of the social order we'd desire. One of the neat things about feudal societies like those in The Hobbit is that everyone has a place, and there's a clear social order. You don't just plop down a McDonald's anywhere you feel like it, or ignore reality. Society is an organic framework that works together.

    I think we all avoid talking about differences between people to keep the peace. We extend that to ethnicity, and endorse multicuturalism, as a result. We think that supporting pluralism, or the coexistence of many different viewpoints at once, is healthy and not chaotic.

    My readings of history suggest exactly the opposite: these things are an absence of order and a desacralization of life, and all societies that have adopted them are heading downward into disorder and eventually, third-world status. (This third world status is not related to ethnicity, but the kind of corruption, disorganization, apathy, etc. you find in failed states, always accompanied by third-world poverty and development levels.)

    I know my views on this are taboo, but it's important to tell the truth at all times, because otherwise we can easily lie to each other and end up in failure.

  48. Re:Blacks have too much power by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

    I'm not sure if I should just play it off and laugh because you're probably kidding, or simply open fire.

    He's not kidding. "We must secure the existence of our people and a future for our children" are the infamous 14 words of David Lane, and are used as a neo-Nazi shibboleth.

  49. Listen to Scientists and Historians please by hessian · · Score: 1

    Most people have no idea what race is or how to talk about it. Here's a sampling of common sense:

    The Race FAQ

    In any topic, it's best to listen to those who have studied it in a disciplined way, and ignore the wailing of the Crowd.

    1. Re:Listen to Scientists and Historians please by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      His conclusion for the lazy:

      In conclusionâ¦

      Some will find provocative the idea that humans display a subspecies-like population structure, but given that the major human subdivisions revealed by modern genetics had already been recognized as early as 1775,[112] it shouldnâ(TM)t be as provocative as the alternative notion, i.e., that human races donâ(TM)t exist.

      So if we do belong to different biological races, what, if anything, does this mean? Subspecies are closely related by definition, and human races appear to be less genetically distant than the major phylogroups of many other species.[113] While FST values for neutral variation are by no means negligible from a population genetics point of view, itâ(TM)s significant that the overwhelming majority of genetic variation is found within populations, reaffirming the importance of treating people as individuals. Itâ(TM)s also significant that the FST value for the most prominent racial trait - skin color - has been estimated to be about 0.60,[114] which means that the visible variation between races greatly exaggerates overall genetic differences. Admixture in some populations further clouds the picture. The average European contribution to the gene pool of American blacks has been found to be about 20%,[115] and admixture between the major races in some other regions is substantially higher.

      Nevertheless, when the taxonomic term is used consistently across species, itâ(TM)s difficult to see any justification for the common assertion that human races are merely âsocial constructs.â(TM) The motivation behind the assertion is a positive one, but denying biological realities at the outset is unlikely to lead to productive social dialogue on coping with human differences.

      I think I would emphasize his comment that it is important to treat people as individuals, and point out that the use of race in the US is practically useless as US blacks and hispanics are virtually unclassifiable.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
  50. Polycausality is so difficult... so difficult... by hessian · · Score: 2, Funny

    Things have multiple traits.

    You can be members of the following groups:

    * Genders
    * Races
    * Ethnicities
    * Classes
    * Sexual Orientations

    and many more! Even better, you can be members of multiple groups at the same time.

    I thought they taught this stuff in introductory science classes.

  51. Re:Blacks have too much power by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    Agreed. I used to not believe in race wars until I saw ALL of the black people in this country vote for Obama based only on the color of his skin. Black people have spoken: it really is them versus us, and the white people they can guilt and corrupt into helping them destroy our culture.

  52. Re:Blacks have too much power by nuclearhazzard327 · · Score: 1

    I respect any person no matter what race when they make something of themselves. Unfortunately for every good example there are at least 10 bad ones. If you were to interview for my company I would hire you very quickly. However most people in my area who are African American fit the atypical stereotype of car with big stereo/big rims, blaring rap music, dressing like a punk, lazy, and usually having no common sense. I will hire someone of African decent and usually have to fire them 2 weeks later because they either don't come to work, are late to work, don't do their work, break work rules, or harass someone (either a co-worker or customer). I wish I had someone like you working for me to show that with some hard work and effort you can make something of yourself.

  53. Re:First by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sometimes we prefer sheep

  54. I have found people who toss the term racist by Shivetya · · Score: 4, Insightful

    around usually fall into the falling categories

    1. They need to feel the victim, never wanting to believe anything that goes wrong in their life is the fault of their choices

    2. They usually exhibit the worst stereotypes attributed to their race

    3. They are so full of hatred (both self and towards others) there is no other reaction they can have

    4. They just seek attention or favors by making public scenes knowing that it is far easier to embarrass people than prove an occurrence.

    The problem today is that the term is applied to too many instances when bigotry is the real term that needs to be applied if at all. Any slight can be perceived in any manner and the press has this tendency to blow things out of proportion because too many in the press think they are societies protectors and it is up to them to identify what is wrong.

    --
    * Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
  55. Black Avatars by T.E.D. · · Score: 1

    I play MMORPGs a lot, and generally like to try to make either Native American or African-looking avitars. I have a nice stable of Osage and Carribean/African names I like to use.

    You'd be really suprised how difficult this is in pretty much every game. I certianly was. It is not difficult at all to make a European-looking avatar. In fact, it is really difficult *not* make one. If you don't believe me, give it a try yourself. For example, in WoW it is possible to make a human look a bit like Hally Berry (light skinned, unnaturally skinny, straight black hair), but that's as far as you can go. There is no way to make the males look anything like even an African-American. I couldn't find a way to make a good Osage or Asian looking person at all. If you want someone with a non-pale skin, you have to go with a non-human. Does that sound as bad to you as it does to me?

    I'm not just picking on WoW, it's just the most popular. I've had pretty much the same experience in *every* one of the 12 or so MMORPGs I've tried. The only real exception was City of Heroes/Villans (which has the best character editor in the business by a long shot).

    The really insane thing about this is that a lot of these games sell as much or more in Asia as in Europe and North America. You'd think they'd at least have several good options for making Asian-looking avitars! You really have to wonder what the message non-Europian looking kids are taking away from this is, when they have to make their character from the Cow, Troll, or Demon looking races to get skin color, body shape, and/or cultural equivalents to theselves, and "normal humans" are all white.

    1. Re:Black Avatars by Robyrt · · Score: 1
      Fantasy games like WoW are generally not based on African or Asian mythology - they use medieval Europe, where minorities were extremely rare. You wouldn't expect there to be African-Americans wandering around, so letting you create one is low on the priority list.

      Similarly, the Prince of Persia series is notably short on Europeans and Africans, because you would not expect any to appear in the Arabian Nights mythos it draws from.

    2. Re:Black Avatars by T.E.D. · · Score: 1

      Fantasy games like WoW are generally not based on African or Asian mythology - they use medieval Europe

      ...and we of course could never, never, sacrifice historical accuracy in a game based on a made up universe to be more inclusive.

      Honestly, I don't think there's any real reason for things being this way, other than the subconcious biases of the folks who make the character generators. I seriously doubt any of these games ever had tons of nice native american, African, and Asian character options, only to have an editor come along and say, "Those looks don't fit in with this race's mileu. Take them out!" I don't think the artists decided aginst doing it because they thought those looks were "ugly" either.

      I think what happened was that that nobody on the dev teams ever even thought about trying to create characters like that, so models for them were never even considered for inclusion. It is still just as wrong, no matter what the reason though.

  56. It's not racism! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There hasn't been real racism on this planet for a least 30,000 years. There is only one recognized race on this planet, Homo sapien sapien. What many of you refer to as race is actually ethnicity. The "racial tensions" of the 1950s - 1970s were in fact ethnic tensions.

  57. Re:Blacks have too much power by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    YHBT

  58. WOW has to much troll killing by L0stm4n · · Score: 1

    Zul'farrak, Zul'Gurub, Zul'Aman

    I haven't kept up with WOTLC but I bet there is a damn troll killing zone there. Way to much troll killing in my opinion. /troll rogue

    --
    superman runs linux
  59. Is STALKER racist? by var-tec · · Score: 1

    I mean, there are no African nor Asian stalkers in this game. It's clearly racist ;-P

  60. Old article? by brkello · · Score: 1

    I am a white guy who voted for Obama. Doesn't that mean that racism is over?

    Kidding aside, racism does still exist, but it is blown out of proportion. If we can't have an intellectually honest conversation about what is and isn't racism, it isn't a discussion worth having since all it does is piss people off.

    --
    Support a great indie game: http://www.abaddon360.com
  61. Re:First by neomunk · · Score: 1

    I noticed you didn't have any problem with the burning his house down around him part, then I looked at your username. *nods and grins* it might not be irony by definition, but it's still damn funny.

  62. Re:First by FreeFull · · Score: 1

    The Bible does describe racists incidents yet it itself is not racist. Even Jesus used a story of a Samaritan helping an injured Jew when people from his own country didn't to show how it doesn't matter which country your own. Remember that the Apostles didn't only preach to Jews but also to people from neighbouring countries like Greece and Rome(now it is Italy).

    --
    No ascii art.
  63. Re:Blacks have too much power by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... ...
    (I'm not sure if I should just play it off and laugh because you're probably kidding, or simply open fire.)

    Don't feed the trolls...

  64. GTA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    every commercial I've ever seen shows a black or Latino as the main character that is driving over people, shooting police and beating up prostitutes.

    Several installments in that series, including the most recent one, have a white main character who engages in exactly the same behavior.

  65. Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Games like World of Warcraft take racism to their very core with PVP. The level of tension between the alliance and horde is shocking, considering there are human being playing both sides. It is the part I truly dislike about the game. Why can't we just get along?

  66. Re:Blacks have too much power by FiloEleven · · Score: 1

    You are describing two different things in your post.

    These are some examples of (a particularly widespread) black American culture:

    car with big stereo/big rims, blaring rap music, dressing like a punk

    These are some examples of the lack of personal development found in poor areas of the country:

    lazy, and usually having no common sense.
    don't come to work, are late to work, don't do their work, break work rules, or harass someone

    I separate these where you have them intertwined to illustrate the point that one has very little to do with the other. You'll see the second set in the trailer park as much as you will in the hood. The negative work behavior stems from growing up in a poor (in the sense of experience as well as money) environment. It just happens to be that many of our poor areas are also black areas for historical reasons that should be obvious.

    The problem arises when people see one behavior (rims'n'rap) and assume the other. There is a disproportionate poor black American population that exhibits that behavior, so such an assumption might turn out to be correct fairly often. But making such an assumption is merely judging someone based on a minuscule bit of information--the very definition of prejudice.

    (I am not accusing you of this just because you talked about both sets of behavior simultaneously--it just jumped out at me and happens often enough to warrant attention. In fact, your problem with often having to fire people after two weeks shows the opposite: you are willing to give people a chance to prove themselves individually in spite of having poor performance from previous people who are culturally similar.)

  67. Re:First by iamhassi · · Score: 1

    "Racism is a lot like the Bible code: if you look hard enough, you can find it anywhere."

    Best... quote... ever.

    I had to google "Resident Evil 5 controversy" to find what all the drama was about. I watched the trailers, didn't see anything racist so I kept looking.

    One of the links was a interview with a Newsweek journalist:
    "There was a lot of imagery in that trailer that dovetailed with classic racist imagery. What was not funny, but sort of interesting, was that there were so many gamers who could not at all see it. Like literally couldn't see it. So how could you have a conversation with people who don't understand what you're talking about and think that you're sort of seeing race where nothing exists?"

    Simple: because none exists. If you have a black man and a white man on a video game, someone somewhere playing the game will somehow see racism. The video is a bunch of zombies being killed. That's it. No racism, unless you want it to be there.

    No one is going to play the game and go "OMG that white man just killed a black man!" unless all you see is skin color and, if you do, then you are the racist.

    --
    my karma will be here long after I'm gone
  68. Re:Blacks have too much power by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Japan has been recessed for awhile and has the highest suicide rate in the world - I'm sure work has a lot to do with it.

    Actually, Japan's high suicide rate is largely due to the incredible pressure that is placed on young students to excel. High school entrance exams in Japan (yes, you have to pass an exam just to get accepted into a high school) are incredibly tough, and many students are told (sometimes correctly so) that if they don't ace the exams, they will fail at life and never have another chance to succeed.

    The end result is that a lot of kids can't handle the pressure and kill themselves.

    The ironic thing is that as long as you can work as part of the group, that's basically the hardest part of your career in Japan. College entrance exams are a joke in comparison, and once you've gotten settled into a decent job, you're set. The worst thing that can happen to a high-ranking businessman is that he'll be "promoted" into a position where he has no real responsibilities or power and he'll get to stay there until he retires.

  69. Re:First by ChromeAeonium · · Score: 1

    The Bible does describe racists incidents yet it itself is not racist.

    Unfortunately, most people don't realize that depict != condone

  70. Re:Blacks have too much power by nuclearhazzard327 · · Score: 1

    I know they are two separate items. But around here they are definitely intertwined a majority of the time...if anything I think being poor should be a 3rd item separate from the culture (rims'n'rap as you put it) and work ethics/no common sense.

    I give everyone a chance. But I was giving my observation from my experience. Sadly the items tend to be intertwined in my case. I was always taught in school to dress for success...coming to work or an interview with your pants hanging off off your #$! does not cut it (that goes for anyone as I see this everywhere these days). But also coming to an interview and expecting that I won't ask you to work hard doesn't cut it either. You are here to work at the company's schedule...not yours. If two people come interview with one dressed liked he just got off a set at BET or MTV or VH1 for the latest puff daddy music video who asks me how much time I get off and a guy in a suit who asks how many hours a week do I get....I'm gonna go with the guy in the suit. For one...dressing for success (no matter who the interview is for...I wore a suit to my McDonalds interview in highschool...instead of cook which I applied for I got a manager position)and also because I have learned that when someone asks how much time they get off they tend to just want the paycheck or won't give 100% while the person who asks how many hours they get is gonna work their ass off because they need/want the job.

    On the another issue...most minorities around here live in quite nice neighborhoods...and their parents are usually hard workers...its usually their kids who act like punks and are fitting the stereotype. For example I had one guy (african american) who worked for the company 20 years (under me 3 years)...only was ever gone sick or on his vacation time....called in every time...followed the rules to a T...he decided to retire...and asked if his son could take over his job (he was our on-site electrician and his son apprenticed for him on site). I figured sure...since his dad trained him he'll know how to do everything already. Right? WRONG! Now they were a pretty well off family...but his son...phew...he gave stupid a new name...first day on the job asks two questions: how much vacation time do I get and can I have fridays off. Answer I had was none until 90 days and you get 2 sick days every 30 days unless hospitalized...fridays are workdays for everyone except weekender skeleton crew. Usually normal questions. Well during that month he never came into work on fridays (come to find out from his dad he was out at the bar drinking...he still lived at home and his dad and I are good friends). Now normally I would let that slide...but there were other things...when he did electrical work he NEVER turned off the power to what he was working on (and we work with machines running 220v and higher at 20-100amps), he would leave live wires exposed when he went on break with no warning signs, he never did lock-outs on the machinery that was being worked on, usually didn't do the job right requiring us to call in outside help to fix it, and last but certainly not least he would take a week to do what his dad could do in a half hour. This was during the course of about two months. Our machines were almost in shambles by the time we found someone new.

    Personally I think it is a combination of the stereotypes and this upcoming generation. But being lazy, having no common sense, etc cannot be blamed on being poor. Being poor is a problem that can be helped with hard work and determination. I've seen people poor as dirt work hard and become managers, engineers, teachers, etc because they made the effort to get themselves out. A good example of that was I hired a man who was homeless (yes...homeless...) who was trained in HVAC and did janitorial work. After his first paycheck he got an apt and got off the street. After 2 years he went to the community college and got training as a plumber and electrician as well as welding. Now he is our top maintenance guy and manager of the maintenance crew and replaced the one guys son. If someone who's homeless (and he was african american as well) can do it then anyone can. As I said...I give anyone a chance...you work hard you keep your job.

  71. Re:Blacks have too much power by lbane · · Score: 1

    Being poor does not mean you have to be an asshole. Look at China and India.

  72. Edutainment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What do these guys mean "racist"? A white guy running around killing blacks in Africa...sounds historical to me.

  73. Last King of Africa by DrYak · · Score: 1

    admittedly, you could go really extreme and make the protagonist an African Female, but as far as I know that'd be breaking new ground in protagonists so I don't see it happening here

    The main protagonist of "Last King of Africa" (a.k.a. "Paradise" in the original French version) by white bird production *is* an African Female.

    But, on the other hand, it's a point'n'click adventure game. Those have always been light years ahead, whereas FPS are very strongly attached to traditions of testosterone-filled muscular white macho man.

    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
  74. Oh, it's racist alright by RazorSharp · · Score: 1

    Just like Resident Evil 1-3 was anti-American and how 4 was racist against Spaniards. That's why there's no Resident Evil taking place in Japan - it's made by greasy-nerdy-short-foureyed-inconsiderate-godless-racist Nips. Has anyone considered that, from the developer's perspective, all the zombies are not only foreigners, but of a race other than their own? Any controversy about RE5's trailers just shows how ignorant and self-absorbed Americans are. We assume that our taboos - such as shooting up hordes of black people, but not including hordes of Asians or white people - have some universal application as if our culture is the world culture.

    --
    "From the depths of my skeptical and rationalist soul, I ask the Lord to protect me from California touchie-feeliedom."