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and waiting to see how a small, Midwest-based chain called Micro Center fares in selling Linux software

There is one of these in Fairfax, VA. How are they midwest?

That said, I'm gonna have to stop by my local one and check out the linux boxes. Been a while since I have been in there. Oh, and link to locations.

For those looking for an example: http://microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtm l?product_id=184679 Yeah, not a great computer, but does what most folks are looking for.

It is pretty neat for things that do not have a constant draw, like refrigerators, etc. in that it accumulates kWh from the time it is plugged in.

However, it is probably just a typo but if you really were running only 1.8 - 2.1 kWh _per month_ than you would be beating the hell out of 99.99% percent of the "developed" world. Might those units supposed to have been just kW instead of kWh?

Truth be told, I am by no means a true programmer or power user anymore, it is not my vocation anymore, I got burned out by it. But I do know user speed, when you click on something how long it takes to complete the task. And I might want to run a web server, to replace my dual cpu PIII one day. Tomcat + JSP + too many users logged in at the same time to a web application = one very slow machine.

I would be interested in your opinion about something. Comparing the following two machines, can you tell me how the MAC would compare with speed? I don't do video editing, and that seems to be the niche that MAC's have.

Here are the machines:

http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx ?c=us&cs=04&kc=6W300&l=en&oc=pe1800sapp&s=bsd

The first machine has two Intel 2.8ghz Xeon processors with 1meg Cache, 1 gigabyte of RAM, 80 gig hard drive. It is $1060.

Or:

http://microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtm l?product_id=0182141

Apple Mac G5 with only 1 processor, 1.8 Ghz and only 512k L2 cache. It comes with 256 megs and a 80 gig hard drive. It is $1499. It is worth noting it has a 64 meg video card, the Dell has integrated video, but a card can be added. And the Apple has DVD-RW, the Dell has just a CD-Rom. There is also another Apple, a dual G5 with the same specs but it is $1999 (I take it that G5 processor is worth $500).

Which is the better machine? Which one is quicker? Even if I wanted to do video editing (which I don't, but who knows, one day I might).

It has been a few years since I price matched, but every time I did, it seemed like the pattern of macs being twice as much held true. I'll do a couple price matches, new and used.

Since you mentioned Dell, I will start with their PC's. Just clicking on desktops, I see a sale, Celron 2.4 Ghz machine with 256 megs, 40 gig hard drive, and 17" monitor is $299. http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/category. aspx/desktops?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd. Looking at laptops, they have a 14" Celron M 1.3ghz laptop with 256megs and a 30 gig hard drive with what appears to be a free printer, for $549. Those are their deals, sales.

Looking at new macs, I find the following are their lowest priced options. The cheapest mac mini is $599 (G4 1.4ghz, 256megs, 80 gig hard drive, cd-rw), the cheapest emac is $799 (G4 1.25 with Velocity Engine, 40 gig hard drive, what appears to be an integrated 17" monitor). http://microcenter.com/search_results_e.phtml?coor dinate_group=F1AX&page=1&search_id=5f3a71072149b6e 75a39f1f05873a7d7&per_page=&sort_price_direction=A SC&sort_by=product.retail The cheapest "traditional" destop is a Power Mac G5 1.8 ghz with 256 megs, 80 gig drive and dvd-rw for $1499.00. http://microcenter.com/search_results_e.phtml?coor dinate_group=F1BX&page=1&search_id=d10aa8d0b3c7536 e2100bbe953281f70&per_page=&sort_price_direction=A SC&sort_by=product.retail

I don't want to be unfair. You mentioned quality, so I figured I would pricematch a brand many consider to be high end. Looking at the Sony Vaio Desktop P4 2.8ghz with HyperThreading (guessing that is like the velocity engine, although I don't know what either term means, probably slick marketing). The Sony comes with 512 megs, 160 gig hard drive, dvd+-rw, for $756 on sale from $999. http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Sony-VAIO-Desktop-P C-PCV-RS610-/sem/rpsm/oid/94849/rpem/ccd/productDe tail.do

Looking at used computers, I went to ebay and I see G4 desktops selling used for around $350. These are G4 400 mhz machines with 128 megs and a standard dvd player. I did not even look for PC's because I know a 500+ mhz PIII can be had for under $100. So, what am I getting for the extra money?

I want to try a Mac, I really would. I saw on ebay G3's around 300 mhz for $150, but I don't know how good a 300 mhz machine would be. Even for just testing. Is a G3 still usable? Or does all the new software require G4's?

So to compare, cheapest new Dell $299, cheapest mac mini $599. Mid-range Sony Vaio $749, midrange Mac G5 $1499. Dell laptop 1.3ghz $549, Mac laptop 1.0 ghz G4 $899. And in every instance, the PC had a faster processor.

It has been a few years since I price matched, but every time I did, it seemed like the pattern of macs being twice as much held true. I'll do a couple price matches, new and used.

Since you mentioned Dell, I will start with their PC's. Just clicking on desktops, I see a sale, Celron 2.4 Ghz machine with 256 megs, 40 gig hard drive, and 17" monitor is $299. http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/category. aspx/desktops?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd. Looking at laptops, they have a 14" Celron M 1.3ghz laptop with 256megs and a 30 gig hard drive with what appears to be a free printer, for $549. Those are their deals, sales.

Looking at new macs, I find the following are their lowest priced options. The cheapest mac mini is $599 (G4 1.4ghz, 256megs, 80 gig hard drive, cd-rw), the cheapest emac is $799 (G4 1.25 with Velocity Engine, 40 gig hard drive, what appears to be an integrated 17" monitor). http://microcenter.com/search_results_e.phtml?coor dinate_group=F1AX&page=1&search_id=5f3a71072149b6e 75a39f1f05873a7d7&per_page=&sort_price_direction=A SC&sort_by=product.retail The cheapest "traditional" destop is a Power Mac G5 1.8 ghz with 256 megs, 80 gig drive and dvd-rw for $1499.00. http://microcenter.com/search_results_e.phtml?coor dinate_group=F1BX&page=1&search_id=d10aa8d0b3c7536 e2100bbe953281f70&per_page=&sort_price_direction=A SC&sort_by=product.retail

I don't want to be unfair. You mentioned quality, so I figured I would pricematch a brand many consider to be high end. Looking at the Sony Vaio Desktop P4 2.8ghz with HyperThreading (guessing that is like the velocity engine, although I don't know what either term means, probably slick marketing). The Sony comes with 512 megs, 160 gig hard drive, dvd+-rw, for $756 on sale from $999. http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Sony-VAIO-Desktop-P C-PCV-RS610-/sem/rpsm/oid/94849/rpem/ccd/productDe tail.do

Looking at used computers, I went to ebay and I see G4 desktops selling used for around $350. These are G4 400 mhz machines with 128 megs and a standard dvd player. I did not even look for PC's because I know a 500+ mhz PIII can be had for under $100. So, what am I getting for the extra money?

I want to try a Mac, I really would. I saw on ebay G3's around 300 mhz for $150, but I don't know how good a 300 mhz machine would be. Even for just testing. Is a G3 still usable? Or does all the new software require G4's?

So to compare, cheapest new Dell $299, cheapest mac mini $599. Mid-range Sony Vaio $749, midrange Mac G5 $1499. Dell laptop 1.3ghz $549, Mac laptop 1.0 ghz G4 $899. And in every instance, the PC had a faster processor.

A couple of points...

First, in regards to Mac software in stores, you might want to look a little closer at the PC section, where you'll be surprised to find that some of those CDs work just fine on Macs. Of course, they don't put this in the Mac software section because it also works on PCs. My local MicroCenter, for example, places these sorts of titles in a separate aisle with a little sign in the Mac section saying "More software available in Aisle 13."

I may be wrong but, for example, World of Warcraft ships on a disk (CD or DVD, I don't know) which contains both the Mac and Windows version. Go to the Mac section of a computer store and you probably won't find it. Thus, there's no "World of Warcraft" for Mac.

Second, if you're referring to the sum total of software titles, there can be no argument. There is simply more software available for Windows than Mac. However, if you break it up into categories, you'll find the Mac is pretty well represented in the types of things it can do. However, the names of the companies may not be ones you recognize.

For example, for years I was told that Macs couldn't do accounting because there was no QuickBooks from Intuit (there is now). The fact that there was AccountEdge and probably three or four other products was beside the point--no QuickBooks, no accounting.

That said, I'd also point out that you may have less competition in the Mac market. For example, a few years ago I thought it would be fun to learn some Vietnamese (my roomate is Vietnamese). Not having time for real classes, I figured I'd buy one of those programs that is supposed to teach you the language. On the PC, there were three or four choices. On the Mac? One. Take it, leave it, or write your own.

Where I find the Mac falls short is in software that interfaces with external devices--usually proprietary devices. For example, years ago when I had some money burning a hole in my pocket, I was debating getting an AIBO. Of course, the software to program it was only available for Windows. Another example is some cool software that let me read information off the chip in my car--nope, Windows only. These both sound like fun projects, though, and someday when I don't have paid work all over me, I'd still like to write something to handle it...

The other place is in "brand" software--almost exclusively games. You want to play Doom 3--not some other FPS game. Fun analogy: Everyone else can watch "Three's Company" and all you can watch is "Man of the House." Yeah, it's basically the same show, but...

I won't disagree with you when you say that there is "less software available for the Mac." But short of programming robots, tuning your car, running a sewing machine, or playing the latest "hip" game, you'll probably find that you are fine with a Macintosh.

Items considered to match - wide screen, drive size and speed, CPU capability and speed (This is an M with a slightly faster clock), memory size (which, btw, is only 512MB as shipped, add another $180) and a name-brand. Off-brand notebooks need not be considered. Their quality in general is too uncertain, and while some may be excellent, many are unreliable in one facet or another.

Last, there are the issues of size, battery life, and style. I don't know what the battery life is for the referred notebook, Toshiba's style is usually relatively clunky, and the size is considerably bigger than a Powerbook.

Now, for XP, yes, I agree, it's been out for years. I've not used it successfully on a notebook (only tried it on one, and that particular Toshiba did not have a full suite of XP compatible drivers) I'll also state that I never successfully got a Windows notebook to sleep successfully consistently. My powerbook's been through numerous sleep-wake cycles over the past 3 weeks with not a single hiccup, even running Windows Media Player and multiple MS Office X windows when going to sleep. BTW, Office X is the one thing that crashes regularly....

Others have posted similar devices elsewhere in this thread, but as an AC mine will get buried. The one I list is cheaper than the rest and is available at a place many of us have actually heard of:

Micro Center 10" Power Cord

Hmm, Micro Center is still showing current stock on their website. I'd call to be sure, though, and you'd want fast shipping.

Though not exactly the same, I ran across a very similar situation when shopping for memory cards for my camera.

Though not exactly the same, I ran across a very similar situation when shopping for memory cards for my camera.

Or you could spend less time and do a quick search. Link

Why would anyone spend $185 for a crippled piece of crap like this, when for $350 you can get an entire system? (actually, $250 if you open a credit card acct...and that is WITH monitor and printer) http://www.microcenter.com/
Save up $65 to $165 more money and get a system that is many times better and upgradable.
(And yes, I know that the $185 system is intended for sale OUTSIDE the USA and that Microcenter is IN the USA, but I still think my point is valid without seaching foreign vendors' sites).

#1) Buy a real slide scanner. Nothing beats true optical 4000 dpi. Here are cheaper ones.

#2) Might want to get a Mac. Windows isn't great on photos, although it's my current platform. I'm looking into the Mac myself....

I have a PC that I decided to employ as an all-out entertainment hub:

Games: GameCube, X-box, & PS2 are connected to it via a VGA box. In addition to this I've got arcade and console emulators.

TV:Yesterday I bought a Hauppauge PVR-150 $99 - $20 MIR)at MicroCenter. I tried out SageTV which downloads my local cable company's TV guide and gives me PVR capabilities.

Music:I use iTunes to organize my music. I have some decent PC speakers, but if I want to listen to some music in the living room, I connect an RCA cable from the line-out jack on my laptop to my stereo system. I share the music wirelessly using iTunes on my PCs with my wireless router.

Of course my PC organizes photos and video files, e-books, etc. In short, my PC handles home media to my satisfaction, saves space, and allows me to modify it to my taste.

... Micro Center has always been good to me.

I dumped Fry's & BestBuy years ago for Micro Center. No bait & switch, pleasant return experiences, no guessing whether merchandise has been previously sold & returned, surprisingly knowledgable sales folks, great prices, and more. I often research products & prices at Micro Center's online store, which indicates items that have rebates or sales, but usually go to the store for my purchases. Although Micro Center's sales force became partially commissioned in the past year or two, I've never had a pushy sales person there, and I've been surprised more than once by their product knowledge. Micro Center has certainly become my favorite retail computer store.

Computers are now at $400 . When computers were $1500, people had no money for security, and they still don't.

If I really had a hankering for an all in one like this (yeah, right), a Sony VAIO would be better, for about the same price. Better specs, cleaner design, much better company longevity.

oh, i know one guy who got a cheap, cheap, cheap pentium 166 laptop and added a large hard drive. he uses it as a data storage and transfer system. the laptop is an ibm 560e, and he has a wireless pcmcia card. at home, work and school they all have wireless networks. so he can transfer data back and forth easily. and the 560 weighs less than 5 pounds (it is tiny). much thiner than a hard drive case, and it looks cool. plus, you can use it anywhere. probably no more expensive than the 512 meg usb keychain.

To those whining that $55USD is too much... try doing a little leg work before bitching.

Microcenter has a coupon to purchase it until 8/8/04 for $46.87.

Circuit City has it online for $44.99 with free shipping.

Best Buy will price match (in store purchase only) for the difference plus 10%.

What does this mean? You can easily pick up Doom 3 for less than $46USD. Quit your whining and start playing!

The concern is a real one. Consider someone who's irritated at their job at a weapons design facility, feels they deserve "the best" (but may actually not... You know the type). With these kinds of devices, how can you keep them from taking sensitive documents to countries with more money than research labs.

I just don't know what can be done about it, honestly. When you have USB devices that are shorter, narrower, and thinner than a stick of gum, what can you do? Here's hoping they have some way to block USB storage devices.

~D

One place that does NOT give you hell: Microcenter. I shop there all the time. Generally, the return policy is 30 days. No stupid 15% restocking fee on the 500$ worth of stuff you just bought that doesn't work right. Their prices are sometimes a little higher (~3-5%) than on the web, but you can't beat the reassurance of being able to take something back if it doesn't work or won't fit or isn't the right part. (How many times have we all accidently picked up the wrong part off the shelf only to get it home and try to figure out why the damn thing won't fit right?)

I'm sure that Microcenter loses some money by doing this, but how much more do they make because their customers are loyal to them and vice-versa?

But most users don't "choose" EIDE either. To that end, popularity among vendors is tantamount to popularity on the desktop, as in the case with nearly all Macintosh generations; Macs had SCSI through the G3 line, albeit sometimes alongside ATA hosts.

As you rightfully observe, the price point has historically been the prohibitive factor. Generally, SCSI's TCO is higher, and relatively few home computers are SCSI-ready, but it looks like SAS will bring a lower price point and a lower TCO.

An inexpensively bridgable bus type could help diminish the perception of SCSI as a niche market, since any SATA-equipped computer can accomodate SAS with less expense and expertise than was previously necessary to add a SCSI chain to an ATA-based PC.

By eliminating the cable/adapter insanity, not only would SAS make SCSI easier to support and less complex, it also foregoes many of the expenses and availability problems associated with SCSI. Most popular retail chains offer either no SCSI products, or only a handful of products at incredibly exhorbitant prices.

Hopefully these factors will prompt OEMs to crank out higher production volumes, resulting in lower prices and more unit sales for desktops.

Also, remember that many technologies once associated only with servers and high-end workstations have since been realized on the desktop--affordably. SMP will soon be de facto on the desktop, we've had high-capacity removable storage for years, HP already offers competitively-priced 64-bit notebooks, and my $70 mainboard has onboard SATA RAID; so maybe it wouldn't be so weird for SAS to open up SCSI to the masses.

Perhaps not, but there _is_ a Micro Center. (with directions from La Guardia)

I frequent the Micro Center in Boston, and while it's not quite Frye's, it's head & shoulders above BestBuy or CompUSA. They have very competitive prices and an excellent selection of high-end parts for computer enthusiants. There's a wide range of brand name PC laptops available, as well as an entire Apple store if you would rather have a PowerBook (who wouldn't?).

You can even shop online and then schedule an in-store pickup during your trip to the states.

gl with customs ;-)

$20, Apple Store

$10

That said, I think the poster just isn't doing his homework. I realize that Micro Center is only in about 13 States, but their online store seems to have about a half dozen likely candidates. $1.50 for a white Belkin, or be a big spender and plop down a whole fiver for the same, but in black.

That said, I think the poster just isn't doing his homework. I realize that Micro Center is only in about 13 States, but their online store seems to have about a half dozen likely candidates. $1.50 for a white Belkin, or be a big spender and plop down a whole fiver for the same, but in black.

The 4x DVD-Rs that I bought just recently from a brick-and-mortar shop were about $56 for 25, or $0.52/GB.

I know you can get them cheaper online... and if you want to go for a slower recording speed (I don't) you can get them about half price.

Tape may be more convenient for large backup jobs, and maybe I'll use it eventually... but for now, DVD is looking pretty good for home applications.

The thing that really scares me after hearing this is that the rest of the computer sales world is, by and large, well below Fry's in terms of knowledge and selection. The Fry's I frequented in Sacramento was full of people who could tell me the average failure rates of the brand name RAM vs. their generic stuff, whether a 5400 or 7200 RPM hard drive would make a difference, etc. When I moved to Washington, DC and found that the best computer store around was MicroCenter -- a horribly overpriced, understaffed, and generally terrible store -- I about cried. More to the point of this story, though, if Fry's is this clueless about Linux, I hate to see the rest of the computer stores out there attempting to sell it. Heaven knows that may cause a step *backwards* in terms of adoption by the general public!

Micro Center does too.

Got a Micro-Center near you? Check here

Got a Micro-Center near you? Check here

MicroCenter carries them; I got a pack from there a few months ago. They carry a wide assortment of fans, switches, cases, as well as a lot of non-geek stuff like pre-built computers, books (well...), and a large variety of software -- basically, anything that may be useful to anyone involved with computers.

Of course, they don't have that many locations, but oh well :-)

the prices are still significantly higher than a CD-ROM drive.

In fact, I just bought a fast DVD-ROM drive from a local brick-and-mortar store for $70. I believe their CD-ROM drives were priced around $50.

My guess for the lack of penetration for DVD-ROM drives is that critical mass hasn't been reached yet. People don't see the point in spending a few extra dollars when there aren't very many applications available yet on DVD-ROM. Publishers don't want to press a DVD version in addition to a CD version when most people don't yet have one. As it is, there's a huge installed base of CD-ROM drives out there, so it's pretty universal. I would guess that big PC OEMs get CD-ROM drives in quantity for $5-10 wholesale and, since a DVD-ROM drive is still considered a big value-add, figure it's good enough for the general case.

shrugI don't know. The price points are there, or very nearly so. I don't see why there isn't a big switchover in the very near future. Of course, this is the same industry that clings to the 1.44MB floppy...

No connections to either company except as a satisfied customer.