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Free Software on a Cheap Computer
Shell writes "Is this the solution to free software on a cheap computer? NetBSD and Yellow Dog Linux have both begun to support the Mac Mini. This article from IBM looks at open source operating system options on this new contender in the embedded PowerPC platform space." From the article: "This article looks at the current state of Linux and NetBSD support on the Mini. If you need all the hardware and options fully supported, these open source options won't do it for you ... yet. But, if all you need is a stable kernel, a C compiler, and network support, the code is high-quality and the price is unbeatable." This is part two in the series. Part One was covered a while back.
Is it possible to get a mini without the apple OS?
If you can't, then whats the point? You've already paid for an OS....
Especially when all of these things ... as well as full hardware support comes with the f*cking computer!.
Ever hear of installing the Developer Tools on your Installation CD?
No offense, I'm a big *BSD supporter, but this article's summary is rediculous.
WTF?
$500 for a plain, low end box is not cheap. A Dell 2.8 GHz P4 with a 19" LCD, keyboard, and mouse for $529 is cheap.
True, Steve Jobs has not blessed it and you probably won't see it used by some trendy featherbrain on "Sex and the City," but it can crunch a lot of numbers for hundreds less than a similarly configured Mac.
To my knowledge and confirmed by TFA, no distro of Linux or BSD (well, apaprt from OSX) supports Airport cards (either version)
They lay the blame at Broadcom's door for keeping the spec a secret, but lots of manufacturer's don't publish specs but still end up being supported, either through reverse-engineering or emulation + non-native-driver
Can any informed person comment on why this is taking so long?
I have been a user for about 10 years. This ends Feb 2014. The site's been ruined. I'm off. Dice, FU
"cheap computer"?
The Mac Mini starts at $499. You can get a brand new computer from Dell for $250. Now the Mac Mini is pretty inexpensive, but its not THAT cheap.
-d
"Here Lies Philip J. Fry, named for his uncle, to carry on his spirit"
FTA:
"Current releases of Yellow Dog, as well as of Debian and Gentoo (both of which run on the Mini), are stable enough for use."
What's wrong with the Debian running on the Mini platform? Is there any reason Ubuntu couldn't run, too?
--
make install -not war
Or, if you want full hardware support along with a stable kernel, a C compiler, and network support, you just leave it alone. What's the advantage of switching to a free OS when you've already paid for the Mac OS?
Doesn't the Mac Mini come with a stable kernel, a C compiler, and network support, all implemented in "high quality code" at the right price? And, OS X comes with excellent support for Java, in contrast to the last time I experimented with Linux on PPC (about a year ago) and found that there was no up-to-date JVM or SDK. (But perhaps I missed something.)
So you buy a Mac Mini, and want a free OS alternative? Why? First off, you already paid for OS X (which, BTW, is a damn good OS), so tell me again why would you need to install NetBSD or Yellow Dog Linux?
What's the point of that?
. . . but free software will always play second fiddle to Microsoft in the consumer market. It's not about price, or quality for the average 'Joe Email' user. It's about advertising, distribution, and familiarity. The only way anyone will ever take the crown is to get a serious distribution deal with someone like Walmart, who can promote a non-Microsoft technology, and get it quickly and easily into consumers homes.
It comes with the Case, MB, and Hard drive.
Then add a monitor = $100
Video Card = $40
Peripherals = $40
CPU = $40
Now THAT'S a cheap computer. If you're looking to save money, why buy a Mac?
Saskboy's blog is good. 9 out of 10 dentists agree.
especially since sex and the city is cancelled.
-mkb
YOU ARE DENSE.
You fail to mention that this system is listed at nearly double that price, and the link shows you how to go through rebate hell to get a deal. And the deal expires tonight.
Are you trolling, or just stupid?
Someone should mod parent down as flamebait. I watch full-screen movies and play full-screen games on my 20" cinema display all the time. Parent post doesn't know what he's talking about.
Head down, go to sleep to the rhythm of the war drums...
Computers have been getting cheaper and cheaper. I'm mainly citing PCs, since Macs have always one-upped PCs in price and advertising. Sure, cute little machines are nice.
My point: two years ago I put together a 1.8ghz machine with 512 megs of RAM, decent video card, decent hard-drive, for 300 dollars. No OS included. Toss in some FreeBSD and I'm up and runnning for 300 bucks. So, again, someone please tell me how a 500 dollar computer is news these days? Just because it's a Mac? Just because Joe-sixpack can pick one up and doesn't need to know how to assemble parts? If so, why assume he would give a hoot about NetBSD or Linux?
Until Airport Express is supported by Yellowdog (or any other Linux for PPC), OSX is the only option.
Then again, can someone remind me why the UNIX under OSX is not good enough? 4 years, and no problems from me.
One possible point---you don't want to pay again, every 12 months or so. Another---you don't want to pay for apps, which can be way more expensive than the cost of the OS anyhow. A third---you want some of the things that are better than in OS X, such as modern X font rendering or Mozilla Firefox. A fourth---you want to be able to repair and upgrade your operating system; better yet, to have those fixes and changes integrated so that everyone can use them. A fifth---you're afraid of vendor lock-in, and want to make sure that your OS and apps are supported into the future. Shall I go on?
I think if I was willing to pay 1.5--2x for Mac hardware, I'd just run OS X. But some folks just like Apple hardware. I don't think the folks who choose to run a free OS on this hardware are insane: they have many viable reasons.
Have you ever tried to display anything full screen in OS X? Apparently not, judging by your comment... as far as movies, DVD Player, QuickTime Player, Windows Media Player, RealPlayer, VLC, and mplayer all have full screen options right in their menu bars. And almost every game DEFAULTS to being full screen... to run it in a window, you have to go change the settings somewhere.
Perhaps you are referring to the difference between windows maximize window and OS X's zoom window functions. This is a matter of preference (one makes windows take up the whole screen, the other makes them fit their contents to save screen real estate). In general, which ever you are used to is the one you prefer (for example, Photoshop on Windows drives me nuts for this very reason).
Last time I checked the Mac Mini shipped with MacOS X included, so you've got free (as in beer) software with it already. Apart from being free (as in speech), just what do NetBSD and Yellow Dog Linux have that the pre-installed software doesn't have? Can someone please enlighten me?
Buying a Mac Mini specifically to install another less polished OS onto it (NetBSD and Yellow Dog Linux may be many things, but neither is polished to MacOS X's standards) seems like really flawed logic.
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
"If you need all the hardware and options fully supported, these open source options won't do it for you ... yet."
Oh really? Then when?
This page was generated by a Barrel of Circus Midgets, and that is the way I like it!!!
No DVD player in the Dell, nor FireWire, nor a modem, nor a stack of bundled software, nor 90 days of free telephone support. Nor is it small, or silent. Laptop technology, which is what the Mini uses, is more expensive.
Just because the Dell costs less doesn't mean the Mac Mini isn't cheap, especially since the box contains more in less space.
I don't get why these articles always seem to push some one-off distribution that someone has scrounged together for their particular architecture. With Debian/Ubuntu, Gentoo or whatever, you get the same basic OS you use everywhere else, modulo a few tools that are specific to that architecture. That makes your life easier, so you can spend more time on interesting things, be it watching movies, kernel hacking or whatever...
http://www.welton.it/davidw/
This argument was addressed countless times after the mini's release. You're comparing apples and oranges.
I can't tell my musician friend to go out and buy your Dell and expect to get a free music sequencer installed, along with the rest of the software. He won't even get a Firewire port to use his M-Audio Firewire 410 with. And he won't get OS X instead of Windows XP.
What are you talking about? I have a 30" Cinema Display and I can watch DVDs on it in full screen mode. I can also do full screen in Quicktime Player and MPlayer. Granted, most things look grainy in full screen, but that is just because there are so many pixels to fill and even HD video needs to be enlarged to do full screen on this size display. The capability is certainly there though.
OS X is massively superior to Linux in all departments, and it's much better suited to the hardware in this instance. I can't see why anyone would want to run Linux on the mini unless they're some kind of zealot; OS X is the only OS to use on it.
the point here isn't the fact that its rediculously cheap. its the package. it's true, you do buy OSX when you buy the mini, so the article itself is somewhat flawed/obsolete. but to all who bash the mac mini's price, your just plain wrong.
the price point of 500 dollars is an excellent alternative to any of Apple's more expensive computers.
They're all more expensive than windows-boxes, but thats the fucking point.
you can buy a 300 dollar p.o.s. that will run WINDOWS. nasty. consumers have never before had such a low-priced option to run an OS as stable as OSX.
youre missing the point. yes, 500 bucks is more than 300 bucks. but why pay 300 in the beginning if it's gonna come with windows.
not to mention the included software (garageband, iMovie, appleworks) that makes the mac mini worth the price, and the amount of time/money you must throw into that 300 dollar PC to keep it as secure as the unix-based OSX comes already.
I'm curious when you say dvd player. If it's got no drive you have a point, but they're pretty cheap, what $30 or something? If you dropped the processor a little I'm sure you could get one with DVD drive. If you mean the player then you can get them free all over the internet. The same for the software. Modems are hardly used anymore, although all the systems I see on sale tend to have one included, you normally get one with your isp connection. What do you want firewire for? I'll agree with you on the laptop technology, that's what you're paying for for the most part, but apple tends to have a bigger markup on this kind of thing because they're apple as well. If you don't need the silence, you're better off getting something else. Even if you do need it, you should certainly shop around.
I am trolling
RAM, CD-R, sound card, speakers. They're pretty essential these days. But at that point, you're approaching what it would cost to get a cheap-o Dell...
Who doesn't like free music?
Screw the free sequencer ;P, the whole reason I bought a Mac was so I could run Logic Audio. I'm still not sure why you would install Linux on it though, I have 4 computers running Linux in my apartment all of which I got for free. Can't get any cheaper than free.
if you are reffering to quicktime, yes, they charge for fullscreen
They just charge for the menu item:
tell application "QuickTime Player"
enter full screen display 1
set the scale of movie 1 to screen
play movie 1
end tell
$500 is not cheap for a mac mini CPU box.
$200 would be cheap and about the right price point for a mac mini type box.
and get all the free software you desire.
I have Scribus, Inkscape,, Xephem in my Fink installation.
I have also GIMP, Links, and NeoOfficej.
Why do I need Linux?
FINK
photosMy Photostream
The grandparent's point is perfectly valid. Fry's sells Great Quality brand generic PCs for $180-250. I've bought several of them to run Linux on, and they've worked just fine. The price doesn't include a monitor, but that's not an issue if you already have one.
It boggles my mind that people are still referring to a $500 computer as cheap. That hasn't been a good price since at least five years ago.
Find free books.
That page is talking nonsense. I'm not saying you're wrong, but that's not the way to show it. 32mb of 256mb ram is not a huge difference. Having two separate optical drives is BETTER, it means you can copy discs on the fly. Add in the price for the separate cd burner, it's less than the monitor and keyboard/mouse, so the dell still comes out over $100 cheaper. If you're really worried about the ram, stick a 128mb stick in the dell as well, then the dell has three times the advantage, and it's going to be what, $30-50 for that ram stick? Ignoring the fact that you can't buy a 32mb stick for a reasonable price, the extra video ram in the mini is only worth about $10 more. $334+10+53 for the cd burner means it's still $100+ cheaper. The only other advantage is in software, but you can get all of that free off the internet. The article makes a big fuss about no antivirus, but getting a free scanner is easy as that. If the OS's limitations are a big problem, who cares when you can get a full OS better than either of them for the time it takes you to download, or $5. (Mepis from cheeplinux or similar)
I am trolling
If you can't, then whats the point? You've already paid for an OS
When making decisions about your future actions, you should not take into consideration what you have already spent. That's a sunk cost, and it can only serve to bias your decision. Rather, you should be considering, from where you stand right now, what your best options are for the future. This is why companies will spend millions on building a new facility, only to abandon it one month before completion. They do this because they figure that they will wind up losing more by continuing to dump time and effort into the facility, so what's the point?
If you get more usability, security, performance, or what have you, out of Linux than you do out of MacOS X, then it does not matter whether or not you have already paid for MacOS X. That has nothing to do with what operating system you should be using from this point forward.
An unjust law is no law at all. - St. Augustine
Considering the footprint, a mac mini is a great deal. You can not build a PC equivalent to the mac mini with the same performance and size for less money. Even with a free OS.
You may have noticed the title is "Free Software on a Cheap Computer", not "Free Software on a Cheap PPC Platform". This would imply that we are discussing computers, not the PPC platform specifically.
The next time you decide to call someone a moron, at least take the time to learn a little bit about grammar. My post may contain some errors, but yours is really bad. Three sentences, all of them have mistakes. At least you could have looked up fuckhead and learned that it is one word.
...to stop paying the Apple Computer tax! I read somewhere that if you buy an Apple, you can leave the OS in the box uninstalled and return it to Apple for a refund of the price of the OS. Just install Linux or BSD on one of these babies and you've never had to deal with the Apple shrink wrap license. Has anyone tried this yet? Apple is maing money hand over fist with their OS monopoly on nice looking *nix. The time to put a stop to it has come! Kick out the expensive nice looking *nix in favor of the free but slighlty unsightly *nixes instead! Fight for your freedoms because Apple hates our freedumb!!!
What kind of drivelling crap is this? Fair enough, free software on PPC is damn good stuff, but it not as if Apple have magnanimously made OSS affordable for the common man (no gender bias intended, figure of speech). Happily for us, 'free as in speech' tends to coincide with 'free as in beer', and well-tested, ubiquitous x86 hardware is absurdly cheap.. cost is not a convincing argument for buying a mac mini, since greater functionality can be provided with F/L/OSS at lower cost on an x86 platform.
This post doesn't really represent the article itself all that well.. if you read it (oh wait.. slashdot, remember?), the article dwells more on the stuff that can go wrong when installing Linux/BSD on your mac mini. With a platform like the mac mini, where every one is identical (clock speed excepted), 'can go wrong' should be interpreted as 'will go wrong', unless it involves the user screwing up..
However, the absolute uniformity of the mini may allow the development of a distro specifically for it.. x86 operating systems have to be prepared to deal with all kinds of frequently questionable hardware, whereas a mac-mini-specific distro would have much smaller field to observe, and so could possibly develop a true 'just works' free OS for the platform. Hell, since they're all the same it could be possible to get a binary driver from nvidia and really go to town on the eye-candy (i know, that's the Free aspect wrecked, but would still be pretty cool..)
Of course, given that OSS developers cannot really start work until the machine is in retail, the chances are that such a distro would only really be ready by the time that the machine itself is viewed as 'obsolete', and certainly no longer available in stores.
Transfering video from MiniDV camcorder to computer for editing with iMovie (or Microsoft Movie Maker). Faster transfer of music to iPod.
End of Line.
I see a lot of Slashdotters arguing wether the Mac Mini is cheap or not.
I should just say a few things, RISC processors (specially PowerPC ones) aren't "cheap", so IMO, for 500 bucks you're getting a great processor, well-engineered box, among other things. Come one, you wouldn't really compare Dell vs Apple, would you?.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
After the lawsuits (yes, plural) about product leaks I don't think you'll be getting many "informed" persons commenting. I imagine Apple also wants to maintain a lock on Airport Express and Air Tunes products, as they're tying them to the successful iPod.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signature_bloc
The "higher" price makes sense when you add in the cuteness/coolness factor, and especially the bundled software. How much would it cost to get something comparable to iPhoto, iMovie, iDVD, and GarageBand? I'd say it'll cost something maybe upwards to $100. Maybe someone will do the search for it. Another beautiful thing about the whole iLife suite is the integration. You just do something in one app, then finish it up or use it in the other. For example, finish editing a movie in iMovie, then make a DVD with nice looking menus in iDVD, then burn onto DVD and distribute. And how can you ignore the coolness/cuteness factor!!!??!! Disclaimer: I use an iBook G4, and am loving it.
One of the reasons I go to slashdot is the sheer power of people fixing annoying problems with 1-10 lines of text.
This post will likely be modded redundant, but I just need to shoot my mouth off for a bit.
I don't see why anyone buying a Mini would want to do this. It's completely insane to "fix" something that works fine by replacing it with stuff that almost works.
It's like buying a new car, running really smoothly, a great piece of equipment - and the first thing you do is replace the engine with one that works less well, and after that replacing the seats with banana crates.
I enjoy large posteriors and I cannot prevaricate.
The whole premise of the article is: An embedded view of the Mac Mini
So for $499 you get an entire solution as an embedded computer; developer tools, OS, and hardware.
For your $98+$40+$40 (case, mb, hard drive, video card, and CPU), where are your developer tools, OS, ram, and SIZE?
Can you place your $178 (+ram, OS, development tools), inside a car? A backpack? A handheld?
The point of the embedded development system is that you can use your tools and hardware from your development environment and transfer it into production. IE, an embedded PowerPC.
Where is the LOW POWER embedded Pentium 4 or embedded Athlon? Your proposed solution would be to develop on a $200 Intel PC for a $80 PowerPC solution.
The Mac mini proposed solution would be to develop on a $499 PowerPC for the same $80 PowerPC solution.
Your idea works great... if you're developing for the XBox. For all the other PowerPC devices (like say the TiVo, or maybe the GameCube, or the future PS3, Revolution, or XBox2), it seems kind of backward.
GPL Deconstructed
Who the fuck cares about footprint! Do you live in a shoebox?
And for the vast majority of us that live nowhere near a Fry's?
What's the point in buying Apple Mini with preinstalled Mac OS X, when I may buy some of VIA-based boxes and install Linux on familiar x86 platform. Yes, I know PowerPC advocates have the point, but I prefer to deal with just one hardware platform, that's easier.
my sstream of consciousness
The article's point is that the $499 Mac mini becomes a powerful "embedded" development platform.
Can you take your $300 PC and turn it into an embedded device, OR develop for an embedded system with it?
The Mac mini's advantage is that many embedded devices use PowerPC.
Read the article for more information. Cheap is only ONE part of the equation. Accessible is the other part.
GPL Deconstructed
I meant the CD/RW drive in the Dell cannot handle DVD's. In the Apple there is a CD/RW+DVD combo. Sorry for being unclear.
What neck of the woods do you live in? As far as I know, the majority of Internet access still occurs through dial-up, so I don't agree with your assertion that modems are hardly used anymore. Nor have I heard of any ISP that includes a modem with a dial-up account.
In any case, you seem to be arguing that the Dell costs less, with which I was not disagreeing. What I disagreed with is that the Mac mini is not cheap. In fact I think it's very cheap for what you get. That it may not be what some (or maybe even most) people want doesn't change that.
"look at small form Tfactor PCs and you'll pay $200 just on the chasis, and it still won't be as small or quiet as a Mac mini."
.tw laptop contractors..
That's because it's a "chassis". It's a wide open flexible machine - with a hefty internal power supply.
To use an Automotive analogy, it's like a GM truck chassis (a smallish, more sylin' one) vs. a single-purpose, unibody-type setup. What we have is a small GM/Isuzu box truck vs. a Lotus Elise - they even cost about the same.
Make one Nano-ATX motherboard with simple DC power jack, purpose build one case around it, include laptop hard drive (that you have happen to have piles of), spend a year tweaking a GNU OS solution for it, and you'd have yourself a $250 machine if people were sure to buy 100,000 of them.
NeXT did the Cube, people went "Ooooh.."
Apple re-did the Cube, people went "Ooooh.."
ASUS and Shuttle did the Cube, people went "Ooooh.."
Apple did the Mini, people went "Ooooh.."
Somebody will take it another step, Dell, or someone with bigtime laptop presence. Perhaps even one of the
.. IBM has a vested interest in encouraging interest among Linux developers for their PPC architecture.
If there's anything to the rumours, we'll be seeing Linux PPC desktops/laptops sometime soon. Wonder if they'll use their Thinkpad offshore, or the Taiwanese company already making the Mac Mini's, FoxConn http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20050114A7040.html
On topic I'd be interested to know if Apple has any exclusionary rights over the market for PPC desktop machines. I'd sure buy a PPC laptop if it came without the sugared fruit..
I have to agree with many of the other posters here about the selling point for most Mac hardware is OS X. Don't get me wrong, I like linux and its great for a lot of purposes, but on my laptop, I just want everything to function properly without having to think of it. If I can get a system that does that using a Unix core, then I'm interested right there. My iBook is a nice piece of hardware, but it isn't really anything special. What is special is OS X. I can't really say that any other operating system can match it when you evaluate it as a whole. If it wasn't for OS X, I'd probably have a Windows laptop and just left Linux to run my server.
SIGFAULT
So what? I bought 3 *GOOD* firewire cards (TI chipset, brand name and all) for a whole 5$ each. Or you could just make a PC with a board that probably cost a whole 5$ more and have it... You can very eaily build a better/faster system than the mini for as much, and you get to pick the parts you want. I got mine because my DSLR has firewire, but other than me, I know of 1 person with a MiniDV cam, that's it. ~99% of people have no use for firewire or don't even know what it is. Most stuff is USB2 lately (webcams, digital cameras, CF raders, external HD enclosures...).
Erm, OS X HAS a stable kernel, a c compiler and network support...
It comes preinstalled on that machine you bought, ya know, included in the price. And XCode is free too.
Nothing to see here, move along...
Like DEC, HP, Data General?
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
http://www.outpost.com/
First off, this web site is always listing PC's from Dell with those kinds of prices. Sure, the rebates and deals will end tonight, but another one always follows. Rebate hell? I think not. Rebates are childlishly simple. I have done quite a few, and rebates that will get back about $400? Sign me UP! It is a shame BestBuy customers can't quite grasp the concept... http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/02/061723 4&tid=187&tid=98&tid=126
You are being MICROattacked, from various angles, in a SOFT manner.
Since I found your post on this forum, I gather that you have access to the Internet.
Here's the latest development: some computer retailers will accept an order that you actually send in through the Internet. Then they ship it right to your house! Here's the kicker: it's often even cheaper than Fry's.
Check it out. I think that this is gonna be the next big thing.
That "featherbrain" you are making fun of is actually quite smart. Have you actually watched the show? Geeks would actually enjoy the show if they gave it a chance. Carrie is a hacker, but not of machines, but people. The whole show is about her attempt to get in there and figure out how the system we call "relationships" between men and women worked and how to nudge it, move it, and get it to do what we want. There are many parallels between Carrie's methods and conclusions as applied to relationships and those of the early phone hackers (as applied to the phone system) and today's computer hackers.
I was skeptical when I first tried out an episode in my wife's collection. I got hooked once I realized that Carrie, far from a featherbrain, has the dedicated hacker ethos and smarts.
Just got a mac mini, got a PC running linux with built in ethernet. What's the simplest way to get the two talking? Is a crossover cable enough? Anybody know anything about this?
John_Chalisque
on same hardware. I want to compare some lock-free algorithms on OS X and on Linux. So far I've compared OS X on PPC vs. Linux on Intel. There's a significant difference but I can't determine how much of that is due to hardware and how much is due to the dispatcher/scheduler. In theory I can do the same for x86 Solaris vs. x86 Linux assuming my hardware is all on the Solaris compatibility list.
Sound does work on the mini, although the support is not officially in the kernel yet. :)
There is a patch,
see http://www.pvv.org/~perchrh/macmini/
I'm using it to play my oggs now
What's so signifigant about this? A story reporting we didn't even make it a single mile below the seafloor.
Few people want to go out and cobble together parts to build a computer. Its a pain in the ass, quite frankly.
Ever wonder why all of those PC companies run out of garages and selling computers out of computer shopper went out of business?
Its because people would rather spend $500 or $2000 on something that looks like it belongs together... that's why people blow extra money on Sony or HP or Apple computers.
The Mac Mini has a low footprint and is a perfect PC for the living or family. Families can be computer users without shoving the machine in the closet or basement or losing half of the living room to a hairball of wires and noisy equipment.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
Debian runs fine on the Mac Mini. Then you can move across all software and scripts from whatever other Debian platforms you've got ... and they just work.
Half-right...
If you're looking for a Mac, the price is great.
If you're looking for a Linux box, you can walk into Frys and match it spec-for-spec for half the price.
But I wouldn't call a Dell anything "cheap". I mean, no matter what else you get, at the end of the day you've got a Dell. Never buy a computer from a company that rhymes with "Hell".
I'm waiting for Java 1.5 on MacOS. The persistent lack of up to date Java on MacOS has long prevented me from even considering using a Mac as a workstation.
Also, MacOS and Linux are not source compatible. They're compatible enough that porting software isn't that hard, but you can't test on MacOS if you need to deliver to Linux.
I rarely criticize things I don't care about.
No DVD player in the Dell, nor FireWire, nor a modem, nor a stack of bundled software, [...]
The software is the key. No matter how much you spend on a Dell or HP you'll never get OS X. Let alone the stuff that runs on it...
But the article was about people buying the Mac Mini to run Linux or BSD on. And that's just looneytunes. Once you set the software aside you can get way better for less.
Laptop technology, which is what the Mini uses, is more expensive.
If I was going to run free UNIX on it... I can buy a refurb Thinkpad T23 with matching specs to the Mini for about the same price. Best laptop keyboard in the world. Decent screen. Faster processor, even after you adjust for the megahertz myth. More versions of Linux and BSD available for it. For a little more I can get 1400x1050 resolution... that's better than the 17" powerbook... in a 14" screen.
But it won't run OS X. And that's the bottom line.
People need to remember that the first article in the series was talking about using the Mini as an embedded development platform. Mac OS X is hardly an embedded OS, so being able to replace it with a more customizable system (i.e., Linux, NetBSD) is a plus, especially if you can make use of the hardware provided in the sexy little package.
Putting a crippled Linux/BSD on a Mini when you have OS X installed is silly: except for the sheer studliness of it go out and buy a cheap x86 box to get your Linux fix.
It's the show that never ends, come inside, come inside...
And for that matter, if you just wanted any old box, you could buy an old one very cheaply.
Or you could buy a very cheap barebones kit if you want something new - the EPIA-based "ASUS Terminator C3" has the board, a case and floppy and optical drives for slightly over $100. Add hard drives and memory and it's ready to roll for maybe $250 total(or more, depending on how cheapskatish you're feeling)
What if Apple made the mini with a no video card option, and there was an OS that would cluster these automatically?
Does ClusterKnoppix do this yet?
You could buy another one whenever you ran out of disk space and add processing power also.
Just a thought.
q a z
I the United Kingdom more than half of all internet access is via a broadband connection of some description (either ADSL, cable or better). New broadband connections are running at rates of tens of thousands a day. I have no idea where you live but from a U.K. perspective at least a dial up modem is rapidly becoming an obsolete device.
nor a stack of bundled software, nor 90 days of free telephone support.
If you're going to install Linux on it anyway - which is what this entire fucking article is about, in case you didn't even bother to read the summary - then the stack of bundled software is a waste of your money, because you're paying extra to get it and you're never going to use it. And I'm willing to bet a billion dollars that those 90 days of free telephone support will be conditional on you using the preinstalled OS.
Will you Apple zealots kindly learn about appropriate behaviour in a discussion? Here's a clue: your defence of the Mac Mini is completely irrelevant, because you are defending it in its intended use: the context of the discussion is not its intended use, and nobody has criticised its excellence in its intended use. Your post is therefore offtopic.
for your laptop?
using OpenFirmware? I'm not interested in changing the orginal Mac configuration or in trying to install one of the Linux boot loaders given the inaccessible documentation for Linux bootloaders which basically makes it impossible to debug Linux boot problems.
Sure, the Mini is nice if you just like looking at your computer because it just looks so darn cool. But let's compare the cost of an Apple and a Dell and see whether the Mini is "affordable"--something which I did just a couple days ago because I needed a new comp to go with my DVI monitor. Latest Dell deal: (There are a TON, but here is just one configuration.) http://forums.slickdeals.net/t90922.html 3.0 GHz P4 with HT (800 FSB) 512 MB Dual Channel DDR2 RAM 80GB 7200RPM Hard Drive 128 MB Radeon x300 PCI-x video 17" e173fp LCD 16X DL DVD+/-RW Keyboard and mouse Ethernet/modem $584 Compare to: Apple Mac Mini 1.42 GHz (with a freaking 167 MHz FSB! Woohoo!) 256MB DDR RAM 80GB 4200RPM Hard Drive Radeon 9200 32MB Video No Monitor No Keyboard/Mouse DVD/CDRW drive Ethernet/modem $599 So what is the better deal? For $15 MORE you get a MUCH worse processor, much less memory, a much worse hard drive, a much worse video card, no monitor, no keyboard, no mouse, and a worse optical drive. And Mac people say the mini is affordable? Please. There's no doubt the mini is stylish. And I love using the Macs here at my uni. But as long as they cost this much, I'm not biting. We have budgets, you know.
I'm glad someone pointed out this option.
That's essentially the sort of system I'm using right now, though I took the route of using an older board and a cheap VIA C3 processor. It chugs along faithfully, though a bit slow when the numbers need to be crunched, but most of the time this Kubuntu-based system runs more than acceptably fast for my taste.
If you're not going to run OS X, it's a waste of money to buy a Mac, even if it's a cheap Mini. If you absolutely must have a Mini, go ahead and run OS X. All sorts of Free Software has native and native-ish ports; NeoOffice, AbiWord, and Gimp.app come to mind immediately. More software is being ported all the time as well. Given time and resources, RangerRick and Co. may manage to get a "native" KDE running. How cool is that?
So yeah, if you have to have OS X, get your Mac; otherwise, save your money and buy a lowend PC that'll be nearly as fast for less than half the cost.
Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
While I do sort of agree with you, I have to say: Holy shit! I never expected to read that in a "Let's port another UNIX type to something else for no good reason" article.
where is the "I feel for ya, but that's some funny ass shit" moderation?
MacOS X which has 64-bit support. Besides what does it matter since the Mac Mini uses a 32bit processor...
Click here or a puppy gets stomped!
But, if all you need is a stable kernel, a C compiler, and network support, the code is high-quality and the price is unbeatable."
"The price is unbeatable" refers to the price of NetBSD/Linux.
Sure, the Mini is nice if you just like looking at your computer because it just looks so darn cool. But let's compare the cost of an Apple and a Dell and see whether the Mini is "affordable"--something which I did just a couple days ago because I needed a new comp to go with my DVI monitor.
Latest Dell deal: (There are a TON, but here is just one configuration.)
http://forums.slickdeals.net/t90922.html
512 MB Dual Channel DDR2 RAM
128 MB Radeon x300 PCI-x video
So what is the better deal? For $15 MORE you get a MUCH worse processor, much less memory, a much worse hard drive, a much worse video card, no monitor, no keyboard, no mouse, and a worse optical drive. And Mac people say the mini is affordable? Please. There's no doubt the mini is stylish. And I love using the Macs here at my uni. But as long as they cost this much, I'm not biting. We have budgets, you know.
Don't tell me about the shitty 40gb $499 version too. Dell has a deal that eats that for lunch too (3 ghz with HT, 17" 1704fp for $499, etc.). Don't bother.
GNU/Linux on an EPIA box. You can even do it fanless. Heck, use an ATA CF reader and you can have a solid-state desktop that uses way less power than a Mac Mini. For the average computer user (who needs/wants web browsing, e-mail (usually through a web interface anyway), and solitaire) it's more than enough, and maybe a bit cheaper.
The US Army: promoting democracy through unquestioned obedience
fuck you fucking fuck head
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
Dell Dimension 4700 Series: Intel® Pentium® 4 Processor 530 w/HT Technology (3GHz, 800FSB)Operating System: Microsoft® Windows® XP Professional Limited Warranty, Services and Support Options: No Extended Service, Support or Ltd Warranty Memory: 256MB DDR2 SDRAM at 400MHz (1x256M) Hard Drive: 80GB Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM) CD or DVD Drive: Single Drive: 48x CD-RW / DVD-ROM Combo Drive Enhanced Software for CD or DVD Burner: RecordNow! Deluxe - Burn, Copy and Label CDs Floppy Drive and Additional Storage Devices: No Floppy Drive Included Monitor: No Monitor Video Cards: Integrated Intel® Graphics Media Accelerator 900 Sound Card: Integrated 5.1 Channel Audio Video Editing: IEEE 1394 Adapter Speakers: No Speaker Option Keyboard: Dell Quietkey® Keyboard Mouse: Dell 2-button scroll mouse Network Interface: Integrated Intel® PRO 10/100 Ethernet Office Productivity Software (Pre-Installed): No Productivity Suite - Corel WordPerfect® word processor only Security Software: No Security Subscription Miscellaneous: Award Winning Service and Support Digital Music: Dell Jukebox PLUS - Rip and burn your CDs faster, print CD labels, and more Digital Photography: Paint Shop Pro® Studio Enhance and restore photos and more Operating System Enhancements: Combo: Microsoft® Plus! for Windows XP and Digital Media Edition Financial Software: No QuickBooks package selected- Includes limited use trial Adobe Software: Adobe® Acrobat® Reader 6.0 Internet Access Services: 6 Months of America Online Membership Included Modem: 56K PCI Data Fax Modem
$926 directly from the Dell site, not some made up reference to a forum price listing.
256MB DDR333 SDRAM - 1 DIMM 80GB Ultra ATA drive Combo Drive Wired Keyboard & Mouse Set - U.S. English 56K v.92 Modem Mac OS X - U.S. English 1.42GHz PowerPC G4
$657.00
This is a much closer comparison. As for the processor being better, that's strictly your uneducated opinion and I doubt that you've ever touched a mini to see just how responsive it is even with a "slower" proc, slower RAM and a slower FSB.
The key always comes down to the software and the Dell deal still doesn't include everything that the Mac gives you.
What distinguishes the Mac Mini is not its hardware (there is plenty of equivalent x86 hardware around), but its marketing and pricing as a mass market desktop machine. Hats off to Jobs--he knows his marketing. But PC manufacturers were already standardizing on smaller and smaller form factors before the Mac Mini even appeared. The PC world is going to come out with similar machines, and at a lower price point. Until then, you are better off with a Shuttle or something similar--less expensive and you can use standard parts to add memory, disk space, and other features.
Here is VLC for OS X.
To display in full screen, either Apple-F or Menu Bar | Video | Full Screen.
Give life
In the almost inevitable situation where you'll want to add a third computer - say, a friend drops by with a laptop - you can just plug it in to the switch and start using it. If you've used crossover cables, though, you'll find yourself in a mad dash to the store for the same switch plus the straight cables to replace your now-useless crossover.
I understand that Macs can automatically sense which sort of cable you're using. If that's true, then at least start off with a straight cable so that you can still use it when you eventually upgrade to a switched network.
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
It has been said ad nauseum, but comparing to a fullsize dell is NOT a good comparison. It's like saying "BMWs suck because they can't haul 1000 lbs of concrete like my F350 diesel dualie can, and the truck costs less". It all depends on what you want out of a system.
For example, I built a Nehemia 1gz Mini-itx system about 1.5 or 2 years ago. It costs me more than $500 in a decent case (Antec Sonato). 40gb drive, 512mb, and guess what - it is isn't silent. There is a fan on the CPU, a fan in the powersupply, and the harddrive is audible. To go to a fanless powersupply setup, I would have to cough up another $100 at least. A laptop harddrive is roughly twice the cost of a 3.5" harddrive (for a 40, let's say that's worth $35). Then there is the adapter, another 15 or 20 bucks. As for getting the fan off the CPU, it's possible with a heat-sink modification, but I doubt that would be less than $30. To get the quiet operation you'd get with a mini, I'd have spend around $700. I'd put linux on it, so I won't even talk about an OS cost.
The DIY solution is quite evidently more expensive when you wish to arrive at roughly the same place you are at with a mini. If all you want to do is haul rocks, and you don't care what the thing looks looks like or how it sounds, the mini is not for you. But then, neither is a mini-itx system (which is neither silent nor powerful but costs more).
What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
Debian works quite nicely on a desktop. If a major upgrade every three or four years is all you need, (which seems to be about what users brought up in the Windows world would expect, anyway) Debian stable is fine.
For the last year or so, Debian testing has been generally stable enough for desktop use; and since Ubuntu came out, I've still found that in general, Debian testing is more stable than Ubuntu. In a couple weeks, I'll try installing Hoary, but my expectations are low.
The biggest difference between KDE and Gnome on Debian versus Ubuntu is the branding. Debian doesn't seem to spend much time making their desktop environments look very different from the defaults set in place by the people who make them (unlike Red Hat and their derivatives, for instance), and the biggest change going to Ubuntu was that there are themes installed which are not standard Gnome themes.
The computer I'm on right now is running Debian Sarge with Ubuntu's XOrg (with its requisite dependencies).
> Is it possible to get a mini without the apple OS?
And, of course, is it possible to get a refund for the Apple OS?
>If you can't, then whats the point? You've already paid for an OS....
The same goes for PCs with Windows XP...
Regarding the article which I can't force myself to read, I'd say it's pretty obvious it's a marketing piece for IBM's microprocessor unit.
Why buy a Mini at all, but especially considering the fact that you can get a "native" Linux (x86) system and use any Linux OS with it.
Might get what you're looking for.
Anyone know of a distro of Linux that works on the iMac G5? I understand there's a kernel that works but I'll be damned if I can work out how to install it, until I can already get it to run.
Look out!
As far as I know, the majority of Internet access still occurs through dial-up
Not true. More than 50% of Americans get online via broadband from home now.
No offense, I would buy Mac hardware only because of the OS inside it.
Mac OS is sleek, nice, productive and very stable.
My Mac-wanabee Gnome desktop doesn't come close!
The hip way to get your IP. No ads, ever.
I can't tell my musician friend to go out and buy your Dell and expect to get a free music sequencer installed, along with the rest of the software.
Your musician friend is going to hate GarageBand. It's limited to 8 tracks and can't even keyframe effects.
Your musician friend would be much happier with Acid5 (which is a mere $70).. and if your musician friend is into MIDI (as you claim he is) he'd be much happier with Reason.
Purchasing an OS because it comes with a crappy freeware app that doesn't do 1/10th of what a $70 piece of software does is rediculous.
It's like saying that because your friend is an artist, he should purchase Windows because it comes with MSPaint and OSX doesn't come with anything.
Want free software? What's wrong with the following:? form_cat=309
Gentoo for OS X: http://www.metadistribution.org/macos/
Darwin Ports: http://darwinports.opendarwin.org/
Fink: http://fink.sourceforge.net/
Freshmeat: http://osx.freshmeat.net/
Sourceforge: http://sourceforge.net/softwaremap/trove_list.php
I need clarification. Are we discussing Open Source Software or Open Source GUIs?
Mac OS X has an open source kernel, a closed source GUI, OSX specific frameworks and some apple specific drivers. I don't see what the problem is. They have to have something extra to entice people to buy their OS. Fortunately, they support open standards and document their APIs very well. I consider "open standards to be far more important that open source software. as the former help to prevent vendor lock in while the latter does not necessarily do that. What good is it to have open source software if it does not support interoperability?
Running Linux or FreeBSD on a mini will gain you nothing for software availability and you will lose WiFi support so I really don't see what is the point to not run OSX.
Jesus was a compassionate social conservative who called individuals to sin no more.
"contains more in less space"
True, but the problem is that it's sold full up! C'mon, the expansion capabilities of the Dell are greater, the support is better and if you want to run Linux on it, it's just cheaper. It just bloody is - you can't argue with that.
Incidentally this software bundle thing; how come MS got stung for bundled apps, yet Apple get away with it? Surely they have the monopoly on Apple kit, or am I missing something here?
Running Linux or FreeBSD on a mini will gain you nothing for software availability and you will lose WiFi support so I really don't see what is the point to not run OSX.
<AOL>Preach it, brother... OS X is BSD!</>
Who wants to run Linux or BSD Unix on a Mac Mini? People buy a Mac Mini to be a cheap low-end Mac. They actually want to run OSX.
If they wanted to run Linux or BSD Unix, they could buy one of those el cheapo $300USD or lower PC Clone systems. In fact, this is something that Linspire counts on, selling their el cheapo Linspire based systems at Wal-Mart, etc.
The day you find people running Linux or BSD Unix on a Mac Mini, will be the day that Apple sells the Mac Mini sans the OS. The Chicago Cubs have a better chance of winning the World's Series, than people have of Apple selling Mac Minis without an OS.
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
Incidentally this software bundle thing; how come MS got stung for bundled apps, yet Apple get away with it? Surely they have the monopoly on Apple kit, or am I missing something here?
Yes, you are missing bunch.
1. At least in the US, there is nothing illegal about being a monopoly, what is illegal is using that monopoly position in one market to give yourself an advantage in another market by artificially tying products together.
2. Microsoft was accused (and as I understand it convicted) of tying the browser to Windows. There were also other issues, such as illegally trying to divide up a market with a competitor (Windows Media vs. Quicktime, they offered Apple free reign of the Mac market with Quicktime if Apple would stop trying to compete in the Windows market with Quicktime). But AFAIK they were never in trouble for bundling anything other than Windows Media and IE.
3. Apple is not a monopoly in any market. Not PCs (3-5% market share). Not music downloads (70%). Not portable music players (60%). Nor are they artifically tying the areas where they have a strong market present (digital music) with places where they are weak (PC market).
4. Even if Apple had 90+% of the PC market for OS's (replacing the MS monopoly there), bundling the Safari web browser would still not be an issue necessarily, because a) they also bundle MS Internet Explorer, and b) they don't do anything to discourage people from using competing products (Firefox, etc..)
OK, maybe a gotcha on the DVD player, but you can pick one up cheap anyway. And who here would use any of the other stuff?
Anyone remember The OpenPPC Project? This was something Ralph Giles and I started a few years ago, to follow up on a PPC-based reference board designed by IBM. Unfortunately a parts problem prevented it from ever being produced commercially, despite creation of a commercial company (Pop Computers) to manage the process.
Anyway... while the Apple Mini/OSX solution isn't the same thing philosophically, I'm fairly content that it solves most of the problems for which that project was created: It's Unix, it's cheap, it's PPC.
What it *isn't* is open-source in any real way. As someone who's now more influenced by practical than ideological concerns these days, I'm content.
Tom Geller
"Profanity is the common crutch of the conversational cripple." - David Keuck
Yes, we all know what a sunk cost is. His point was, OS X is basically equal (or superior) to Linux, except for the cost. If the cost isn't a factor--as you pointed out with your brilliant 'sunk cost' post--why in the world would you switch to linux? Most linux apps run on OSX, so the whole vertical applications crap doesn't apply.
Just plug them together with any ethernet cable. Unless you really know you way around the IP settings on the PC, changing the Mac's IP (or just using Rendezvous) is the easier route to connectivity in my experience.
No one pays full price at Dell. There are 40% off coupons (or equivalent--this deal used a $400 of $999 coupon) EVERY WEEK. So you're full of shit for not RTFA. You must be one of those people who accepts the quote from the hotel desk as the "real rate" and actually pays full price.
Install Ubuntu for a whopping $0.
Of course the BMW doesn't suck. But you also wouldn't (if you're being reasonable) ever say it's cheap.
If you don't know where you are going, you will wind up somewhere else.
Two OS's can be included.
There doesn't have to be a Linux/OS X war here you know.
Buy your Mac Mini from YellowDogLinux.org and get 2 OS's pre-installed. Then you doulbe you choice of software options.
I keep my personal info on the OS X side. But, it's interesting and smart to get some real Linux experience about what the typical directory structure looks like. And the software they run as standard.
$500 for a power-efficient, compact, embedded system.
None of that matters, his point was that the Mac mini ships with the equivalent of Cakewalk Home Studio for free.
I never needed more than 8 tracks recording anything my band did.
That's a sunk cost, and it can only serve to bias your decision. Rather, you should be considering, from where you stand right now, what your best options are for the future.
If you get more usability, security, performance, or what have you, out of Linux than you do out of MacOS X, then it does not matter whether or not you have already paid for MacOS X.
This is true, but the article title implied that the reason for installing Linux was that it was free. If that means free as in beer, then it's a specious argument, precisely because the cost of OS X has already been paid: you cannot save money by installing Linux.
Indeed, if your time has monetary value, as everyone does, then taking the time to install Linux in fact adds cost.
I stole this sig from someone cleverer than me.
I'm not sure it makes sense as a "cheap computer" approach. I'd argue that it's hardly pointless, though:
... it has a UNIX/BSD subsystem, but it sure ain't UNIX. I found that one out first hand as I helped port Scribus to it (still in progress). Mach-O, Aqua, Carbon, Cocoa, weird font formats, weird FS layout, etc. Not bad, but not UNIX.
(a) Some folks like mac hardware but can't stand MacOS/X . I'm not one of them, but I prefer using a more "true" UNIX with a single, consistent API and with well-integrated X11.
(b) Other folks are developing PowerPC applications for UNIX. Linux, being much more "unix-y" than MacOS/X, will be a much better fit for that sort of role.
Yes, I know Apple says OS/X is UNIX. Well
The short version of my BIO will explain in more detail. I believe you owe me some money from that Internet tax I placed on porn in 1995. Better recognize, and pay up, or you may find yourself Banned from the Internet. The green haired girl works for me, and I can have her ban you in an instant for posting to me that way.
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
So what, MacOS is a decent OS. Who cares? It only runs on Macs anyways. The great thing about Linux and other open systems is that they aren't platform dependant.
You know, some people actually LIKE Linux systems, and they prefer to use them on whatever the hardware of the day is, be it a G5 or an Opteron or an Itanium. At the end of the day, you're still using your trusted and open OS, which you'll more then likely be able to run on the next system out the door by whatever company.
Don't you get it? Vendor lock-in sucks, I don't care if it IS the proverbial underdog that's doing it.
- It's not the Macs I hate. It's Digg users. -
I can agree with you on some points, but as a long-time UNIX _and_ Linux user and more recent MacOS/X user, not all.
.pkg-based Aqua ones, without using AppleScript hacks, and (b) X11 apps could get their own dock entries etc. As I work on porting to MacOS/X, I'm increasingly learning that neither of these would be excessively hard for Apple to do. I just don't think they want to.
2: X11 doesn't come pre-installed, it has to be custom-installed by the user though it is shipped with the OS. A most unfortunate decision in my book.
5: Doing this largely denies you access to the system admin tools etc. It also means you still have the non-trivial overhead of Aqua, the Finder, etc.
More importantly, it doesn't change the fact that you're running on an OS with several fundamentally different ideas of what an "application" is ("native" Aqua, X11, console, Java, etc).
It also has a different binary format (Mach-O), a strange linker (-framework anybody? Why didn't they at least make it -framework,name,name like the rest?!?), and other differences that make it hard to treat it as a generic *nix.
Oh yeah, and Apple X11 seems really slow compared to the versions I use on other platforms, which doesn't help. OTOH, perhaps that's because I use it on an eMac.
6: Would be more true if (a) you could launch X11 apps from the file manager and dock as easily as
Now, for most users, who cares. They're happy with OS/X. If you're looking for, say, a PPC UNIX devel machine, though, this sort of thing makes sense. I still think it's utter BS for the proposed use - cheap desktops.
Where's that offer? Not on the Dell site, jackass. More made up shit from the penguin raping brigade. You get what you pay for with Dell. I've dealt with them in the office and they put together crappy hardware with decent specs from shitty manufacturers that break down regularly with POS cases that fall apart if you breathe on them. So get over yourself.
Linux doesn't come remotely close to OS X you cheap ass penguin raping idiot. And you can't do the video and audio work that you can do with the packaged user-friendly software from Apple that works off the bat unlike spending the years of time getting the right POS drivers for the half ass shit software and crappy hardware you're buying from Dell you get from your other penguin fucking morons.
If you were a real Linux hack then you wouldn't waste your time with Dell anyhow. So who are you trying to kid? Ah, that's the point, you're nothing but another shit out the mouth idiot kid anyhow...
The iBook is legendarily unreliable. My friend's iBook (nicknamed "iBork") has had to be sent back to apple for repairs no less than 3 times...
apple faced class action lawsuits over the iBook fiascos.
I'd seriously reconsider recommending an iBook to anyone. Just because it didn't happen to you doesn't mean it won't to the person you recommend it to. And statistically speaking, the ibook is very prone to failure compared to other laptops.
A powerbook is probably ok though.
True - flawed analogy on my part -- but this is slashdot and that's par. I suppose better would be something like comparing a Jetta/Civic to a Pickup.
What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
Why I'm responding to this stupidity at this hour is beyond me, but I'll bite. I'm an IT professional (along with 80 percent of slashdot it would seem) with about fifteen years experience on different systems, ranging from uniprocessor desktops up to heavy iron.
Here's the deal: the Dell you've quoted is not a gaming machine.. nor is the Mac mini. Main selling point for the Dell: monitor's included.. and maybe the hard drive.
Selling point for the mini? The goddamned thing is going to work. If you want to type term papers, send some email, IM, do some low-end development, knock yourself out and have a good time. Very few problems with spyware and viruses on OS X, and the added benefit of generally decent workmanship. Ever had to deal with Dell machines en masse? I have. They are pure shit. The laptops are even worse. My personal favorite is a design "issue" (read as FLAW) where you shut the machine and place it in your book bag. Over the course of two weeks its pussy-assed little screen will develop a nice scratch across the LCD from the edge of the keyboard due to lack of rigidity in the case. Anyway, I've had scads of issues with Dell hardware and the best thing about it is that we've got a Dell certified guy on site, so they just ship us stuff, no questions. Oh yeah, and that gimme LCD monitor in your configuration blows goats as well.
The summary: If you really want a PC, go ahead and get a Dell. If you want to get work done, get the Mac.
I bought a mac mini because it was the cheapest mac I could buy for osx development.
:-/
It certainly won't be replacing my P4 shuttle SB52G2 or desktop opteron. I hardly use the mini at all, just ssh in for remote compiles really. Well, really slow compiles
If it were possible to cross compile for osx (like I can with win32 and mingw), I probably wouldn't have a mac mini at all...
And I'll trust a sub-$500 system no farther than I can kick.
*I* can build something for myself for that much, and have it be a nice-rock solid system. This means I do not expect some random company, no matter what their vendor discount, to be able to do so and make a profit on it.
The only component in those budget systems that isn't crap is the processor, and that's because there are only really two processor vendors. Cheap mobo, awful ram, maxtor "I lose data after six months" hd, etc, etc.
The return rates on low-end PC's for part failure at Best Buy are atrocious.
Actually, I find it rather amusing that other than Dell (who moves more volume of product than ANY other computer vendor, period), there don't seem to really be any other PCs out there people are even TRYING to compare to the Mac Mini as "better buys for the price".
I grant you that Dell runs some pretty incredible deals on their hardware these days. (That 24" LCD panel for under $1200 is unbeatable, for example!) But with Dell, one also has to be very cautious about the "specials". My mother-in-law ordered one of their "bargain-priced entry level Dimension systems" last Xmas, only to have the bill arrive for hundreds more than the advertised sale price. To this day, she's still fighting Dell, trying to get a credit. She's faxed them copies of their ad, right out of a catalog, two different times now - but Dell keeps "losing" them, and making claims that "We've done so many different offers, we're not even sure which one you're referring to. " On another recent occasion, I saw some special deals on Dell notebooks that sounded too good to be true. Turned out, they basically were. Dell had a little disclaimer in their ad that they reserved the right to "withdraw the specials" at any time - and they did, within 2 or 3 hours of announcing them.
At least with Apple, the stated price is clear and consistent, and there won't be any fighting (or entering lengthy coupon codes) to get it.
But as others have stated, a Mac Mini is primarily of interest because it's an affordable OS X machine. If you don't subscribe to the belief that running OS X could be beneficial over running Windows XP - then yeah, there's little doubt you can build something "higher-spec" and with more hardware bundled for the money. Frankly though, I'm tired of all the B.S. with Windows operating systems. I have an AMD Athlon 64 tower that's almost only used for gaming now - and I'm moving practically everything else to my Macs. When I was thinking of buying a spare computer for use in my basement, the Mac Mini was a no-brainer purchase. It just works, virus and spyware free, and is fast enough for the tasks I'd ask of it.
apple's extremely poor handling of the situation (deleting forum threads about ibook failures) should be warning enough to anyone.
Ditto. In both senses - that is, been there done that, and "use the program `ditto' to do it".
`ditto' is the program the Mac developers wrote instead of tweaking all the UNIX utilities to work with their dual-forked filesystem. Never, ever, ever use `cp' on MacOS/X - only `ditto'.
Guess what isn't mentioned in the `cp' man page?
I just picked up a 2Ghz Pentium M laptop, 60Gb disk, dvd/cdrw, 1 GB RAM, wifi, bluetooth, SXGA screen for a little over $1200.
I like apples gear, and if you look at list prices it's quite competitive with dell. But i had a coupon that took $800 off my laptop's list price, so it changes things a bit.
But don't all the new macs already run darwin/opendarwin? And I suppose you could easily put x windows on those os?
Don't forget NetBSD pkgsrc.
c ka ges.html#platforms
On Mac OSX since OSX October 2001
http://www.netbsd.org/Documentation/software/pa
Contempt without investigation has a name: ignorance. Grandma's and graphic designers use Macs. Real nerds use Linux.
/ 1818256&tid=156&tid=3&tid=218
Pot. Kettle. Black. You just proved your ignorance.
"Ben Gutierrez writes "Paul Graham has posted a new essay on the Return of the Mac which begins with: 'All the best hackers I know are gradually switching to Macs.' Tim O'Reilly said some similar things in Watching Alpha Geeks. From the article: "My friend Robert said his whole research group at MIT recently bought themselves Powerbooks. These guys are not the graphic designers and grandmas who were buying Macs at Apple's low point in the mid 1990s. They're about as hardcore OS hackers as you can get.""
http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/03/29
You can boot from cd-rom, read up on IEEE 1275 Open Firmware.
Read the EULA.
Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, START
Some applications don't need a GUI or all the other software that comes with a Mac. Look at the Navy's XServers running a sonar application. I might want to buy a mini and use it as a silent OpenBSD firewall. Sure Mac OS X could do this but for security reasons such a box is best run with only what it needs. In short think of "appliance" type application.
...uses a dual-CPU G5 exclusively nowadays.
Among a large number of other people.
Pirate Party UK
If you want to, you can always hit the terminal, or even boot up to a console on the mac. Not sure why you'd want to, but the ability is there.
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To me, Apple is best described as a company that makes the cool stuff that Steve Jobs wants to own. It seems to be a policy that works.
Yes, Apple does make the lion's share of its money selling gizmos, and yes, they also make some of the best professional software tools around, but it's the orientation to what the Big Guy wants that drives a lot of the products being made.
I think that was the thing that set Steve apart from the managers in between his two reigns. With the possible exception of Sculley, most of the others tried to second-guess what customers would buy; Steve brought back the thinking to what he would want if he were the customer.
>> No DVD player in the Dell, nor FireWire, nor a modem, nor a stack of bundled software, nor 90 days of free telephone support. Nor is it small, or silent. Laptop technology, which is what the Mini uses, is more expensive.
Subtract out the 19" LCD (approx $300) and you have a $229 system. Now add back in the DVD, firewire, modem and blah blah blah and it is still much cheaper.
It isn't small form factor, but nothing is really stopping a company like Dell from offering such a system. If it turns out that this form factor is what people want and the Mac Mini is a hit, then I'm sure Dell will have a cheaper offering. Apple just doesn't have the manufacturing infrastructure to compete with Dell on price. Hell, even giants like IBM and HP can't compete with Dell on price.
Not sure why you'd want to
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.. why not start another PC vs Mac flame war.. yeah.. havent had one for a week now..
One thing to note, is how defensive Mac people have to be to explain that you shouldnt need to run Linux on a Mac, because you already 'have the best OS out there'. Pretty much the usual 'Apple is best' mentality, and yet these are the same people that complain about companies forcing people to use Windows on their machines.. go figure..
> Ok. I'm not a beginner. Can I please have a non-beginner apple mouse?
Yes, you can; multi-button mouses and scroll wheels are supported by Mac OS X, so you can have any mouse you like, so long as it's USB.
The Mac Mini (which I think is where this discussion started) is sold without a mouse, so you will be buying one or reusing an old mouse in any event.
You could turn this question around and ask whether other operating systems should have an option to work with a one-button mouse for the sake of people who can't use a multi-button mouse for whatever reason. (People with a persistent tremor will find a conventional mouse difficult to control, for example.) I remember having all sorts of trouble using a PC 2-button mouse to control applications designed for Sun's 3-button devices. Nowadays we would view a program that REQUIRES a middle button as badly designed.
It's true there are some usability features old-timers miss from Mac OS 9 -- but don't forget how many complaints there were when GNOME took on board some of these selfsame features (such as 'spacial' file-browsing windows). The Finder may make some people cross but it works well enough for my purposes.
Anyway, as far as I can see you can get a pretty much equivalent dell for about $100 less. You're mostly paying for the stylish design, the possibly better build quality, and the fact it's an apple. That's not to say it isn't worth it for what it is, but to me that makes it not cheap. The difference between, for example, a cheap car and an expensive car is not that you get less value for money on the expensive car, it's that a lot of what you pay for on the expensive car is the style, the quality, and the brand.
I am trolling
Very true, but we're comparing to a dell which was also already built, and looks like it belongs together. It's not gleaming chrome lines, just like your fridge probably isn't as stylish as the mac mini, but it looks fine. It's very much useable for a family. Since the mini doesn't include keyboard, mouse or monitor, unless you spend a lot on them too you'll still have the same number of wires, and the most visible part of the system will not look any better than with the dell. The smaller case is an advantage but no big one, people have been hiding bits of their entertainment systems for years. I can fit a standard case very easily under the shelf running around my living room, and it has special "cable holes". It was designed before computers, presumably for hifi equipment or televisions, but it works fine. Computer plugs in under there, phone line connection is there too, all that comes out is the two cables to the monitor - no uglier than those to a television, and just as invisible most of the time - and one each for the mouse and keyboard, if that's a problem you can buy a separate wireless set and still be cheaper. Yes this means getting your own parts, but THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THE MINI DOES, BECAUSE IT DOESN'T INCLUDE BASIC INPUT/OUTPUT PERIPHERALS. Noise may be an issue, but I can't really imagine it would be a big problem. The tower by my feet is a standard cheap case (not dell, but similar) with an extra fan in on the video card, and I don't hear the hum unless I listen to it, but it's there, comforting. I can hear the fridge in my kitchen whirring just as easily as the computer.
I am trolling
yeah... and stick up the butt is the ass crutch of the closet homosexual.
seriously dude... I am obnoxious... you think that maybe I posted it to get your goad?
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
No, I figured you were at the limits of your vocabulary. You don't seem very bright.
My WindTunnel G4 developed a nasty overheating problem last week, so I had to tweak AppleFan.kext to keep the blowers running flat-out (even AFTER I blew out the 3lbs of dust from the fan grilles..I should probably get it looked at). Don't piss and moan about noise to me, it sounds like I have a frickin' leaf blower under the desk. A 45 pound one...but at least the spiffy case design makes it easy to lug around.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. - Aldous Huxley
When you can tell me if the direct sum of the rings Z2 Z2 is isomorphic the the ring Z4 or the ring of symmetries of a non-square rectangle and why, then I might be willing to listen to your sewage.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
Being a math major is worthless, so why would he care?
It is fine for Apple to give you a Mac Mini at cost. They will make there money on iTunes and when you update the OS. Not to mention when you update to a new better Mac. It is just to get you hooked.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
"Lack of math skills is a sign of a mental cripple." -- Me
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
If you want me to do your homework for you, at least post it so it is readable.
ha ha ha... the fact that you can not answer that question shows how stupid you are.
don't act like you are mentally superior on the web... you will get burned.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
So if that sig propogates, then eventually the least clever person in the world will have it. And since it will no doubt skip some levels of cleverness along the way, how many iterations before it reaches bottom?
The fact that I seem mentally superior to you isn't an act. It is just that everything is relative.
You must not be new around here.
then answer the question I posed earlier.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
You come across as a mildly retarded 13 year old with Tourette's syndrome. Learn to communicate. When you get into the real world, good communication skills will be infinitely more valuable to you than knowing a few equations.
A parrot can be taught to recite the answer to a question and why. This is not a measure of intelligence. Your question would prove nothing. The fact that you don't understand this shows that you are a fool. Instead of replying with a stupid comment, you might want to think about these things. I've grown weary of this and will now go find someone else to troll.
Have a nice day.
OK, IMHO OS X is superior to any form of linux.
IMHO, OS X will perform all the tasks I want, and is already installed.
Therefore, any article expressing a way of NOT using OS X on a mini-mac is a waste of everybody's time and effort. Why would a tech-site like Slashdot be publishing ways of altering your computer to be more to your own liking, when I say that OS X is already as good as computer systems will ever be?
Your opinion is irrelevant.
I have spoken.
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MadDwarf
the question was phrase coherently. you do not understand the question because you are an not familiar with what a direct sum is, what Z4 is, what Z2 is, what the symmetries of a non-square rectangle are nor what a ring is.
you come across as a high school student who knows how to act like they are smart but really are quite stupid.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
What neck of the woods do you live in? As far as I know, the majority of Internet access still occurs through dial-up, so I don't agree with your assertion that modems are hardly used anymore. Nor have I heard of any ISP that includes a modem with a dial-up account.
I haven't used dialup since 1998, and I got a modem from my ISP when I did. I would hate to pay for a bundled modem.
I still want a mac mini though..
^^