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Domain: mono-project.com
Stories and comments across the archive that link to mono-project.com.
Comments · 571
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Re:The only thing I want to know....Can someone tell me that C# is open and not proprietary? It only runs on one platform, theirs? How is that better than writing natively?
I'm no MS fan but check this link Mono
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Re:the suck/non-suck divide
I'm a big Python advocate myself. Yes, the whitespace issue is really annoying, but once you get past that, it does a lot that other scripting languages don't. Oh, and here's the obligatory XKCD comic to prove my point:
Python is great, but when dealing with the web you either have to stick to web-standard languages (ECMAScript) or try to get another language standardized (which probably wouldn't be Python). Obviously if you take the web out of it, things open up considerably.
I would be willing to try out ASP.Net, though I'm going to guess I can't actually develop for it since I own a Mac.
You could run Parallels (which would require a Windows license, of course), or you could play with Mono. I'm not sure how much of ASP.Net 2.0 they support, nor whether ASP.Net AJAX runs on Mono, but it might be interesting to find out.
so, more importantly, I don't actually want a solution that spits out more HTML. I don't want my GUI in a web browser. I want a real actual GUI on its own. Kinda like what Java can, only with a lot less Java (oh, and a much better designed GUI).
Then you're not talking about AJAX or web development. You're talking about traditional "rich client" development, which many languages can do. Speaking of Javascript, JScrpt.NET is a full
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Re:Luckily
You do realize that you can write use
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Re:Trash IE all you want but..
Silverlight is not just a competitor to Flash, it's yet another attempt to kill the web as a competitor to desktop apps - really it's a competitor to DHTML.
Yes, and no... DHTML is done almost completely inline with the page, whereas Silverlight is indeed just an object on the page. Granted, it does compensate for one of Flash's shortcomings by interfacing better with external data, but can you really blatantly ascribe Microsoft's efforts to pure malace? It sounds to me like they're trying to make a buck, and improve their own platform, rather than serve as the death star for all things technological.
Secondly, the Linux port is being undertaken by the Mono project, who have been quite successful in re-implementing Microsoft's
(Also, as much as I hate to stand up for Microsoft, they never dropped Mac Office... it's reportedly one of their most profitable products, as most mac users buy it, and the dev team for it is quite small. Mac IE was *never* a good product, and I don't think anybody was sad when it got abandoned. Finally, Java's not a Microsoft technology... not quite sure where you were going with that)
As it stands, DHTML absolutely sucks for creating desktop-like applications, and developing "desktop-like" apps on the web right now isn't really all that great. Take a look at what it takes to develop even a simple app, deal with Javascript's stupid shortcomings, and reconcile differences between browsers. It's not desirable to the developer or the user (not to mention being slow as molasses). If somebody else wants to step up to the plate, and fill this gap, I'd welcome it, but Microsoft is clearly the innovator in this area, like it or not. -
Re:Trash IE all you want but..
Agreed, although I'm no fan of Microsoft, I will wholeheartedly welcome any serious competitor to Flash.
In order to seriously compete with Flash, Microsoft's going to have to provide some compelling features, and be a wee bit more "open" than Adobe is, which they do appear to be doing.
For one, their video codec doesn't suck up 100% CPU to DECODE a 320x240 video on a decently powerful machine.
Although it's not "open" by any stretch of the imagination if you want to compare it to the GPL, they *are* being considerably more open about it than Adobe are with flash, and there is a serious effort to support it on Linux. Mac users should be happy too, because it would be difficult (even for Microsoft) to produce something worse than the OS X Flash Player, and the Silverlight betas look promising.
As long as it's not unnecessarily DRM-encumbered (which it doesn't appear to be), I'm all for Silverlight. -
Re:Not for Win32 compatibility
Mono is quickly catching, I think 2.0 at least is ISO certified, and 3.0 is really more about the
Have a look here for details:
http://mono-project.com/Roadmap
It sounds like they are somewhere between 1.1 and 2.0, and that 3.0 is an addon to the MS apis, which has little to do with the core. 3.5 is really the next target with some updates to the core, but it really sounds about as significant as a python point release.
So, sure, Mono lags a bit, but from the C# and other # developers I've talked to, it has the most important stuff, and that's how it's been developed, by taking codebases and trying to make them work. -
Re:Why MS Windows?
That forces everybody involved to use MS Windows
Yeah, because everyone knows you cannot use C# under Linux. -
Re:MLB and Silverlight
Yes, there's a plugin for Firefox.
There's also Moonlight, the Open Source Silverlight implementation working with M$ support.
No, I don't like Microsoft either, but after working a little with Flash, and seeing their license fees for doing anything interesting with it, I heartily welcome the competition. (Something like 98% of Web users have Flash installed... According to Adobe). -
Re:.NET for client-side scriptyou can't implement it outside of IE
Incorrect. Silverlight is currently targeted at IE, firefox, Safari, with plans for Opera and Konqueror. Did you miss the articles about moonlight Mmm, selective quoting.
The full quote was: "you can't implement it outside of IE because it's patented from here to hell and back."
Silverlight, like the rest of -
Re:.NET for client-side script
C#, VB.NET, J#. Whatever. Microsoft wants a
Correct, silverlight is sandboxed.
But you still get all the
Also correct.
you can't implement it outside of IE
Incorrect. Silverlight is currently targeted at IE, firefox, Safari, with plans for Opera and Konqueror. Did you miss the articles about moonlight
Open your eyes, people. This is Microsoft.
Yeah, open your eyes. Discuss how Microsoft has adapted to the events of the last decade. -
On the *plus* side its not Silverlight ?!
i wonder if miguel "microsoft" de icaza and his cronies [1] are faster than the gnash [2] ppl.
also, this is not cross-platform. java would be. any free software could be ported.
flash is proprietary evil and places everyone who wants to see BBC content at adobes will.
it's a bit like "IA64 ? sorry, but no.".
with free software, this wouldn't happen.
[1] http://www.mono-project.com/Moonlight
[2] http://www.gnashdev.org/ -
Re:Yeah, one tiny little difference
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Re:Interesting Move by Microsoft
Oh there is no doubt that
I've never had to do it, but I think the dllimport feature would allow you to invoke native procedures on whatever specific platform you're using.
It doesn't surprise me that those proprietary Access calls would require Win32 as Access is so totally Windows specific and no other RDBMS requires such intense coddling. It is interesting that GetDriveType() isn't part of the framework though. -
Re:Interesting Move by Microsoft
errrr... yes it does.
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Re:Wise move by MS
There's now a chance that the
There's already Mono, of course, but from the article:
The Microsoft Reference License allows viewing of source code for reference purposes, but does not allow editing, copying, or rebuilding.
The practical utility of this code for F/OSS efforts is, at best, zero.
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System.GNU/Linux.FormsI think Mono's doesn't handle all of
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Re:For some definition of the word 'free'
C# programs _that also use Windows Forms_ and not Gtk# or SDL# run on Linux?
Last time I checked Sharp Develop, a free IDE for C# did not function.
Or what about Paint
Nope, these use Windows Forms, these dont run in Mono.
According to http://www.mono-project.com/WinForms_CodeOwners things like textboxes are still "under development".
Mono was not intended as a compatibility layer for Linux, just a cool tech that Icaza wanted for GNOME. -
Re:Yeah, Right
Actually, Moonlight is produced by the folks that brought you Mono.
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Re:Yeah, Right
You don't have to, silly. You can run nice, clean, open source. It didn't even originate at Microsoft, as though that would make a difference--it's totally legitimate open source, developed by the community (and Novell), and based on the existing Mono project.
Next time, RTFA. -
Re:Finally!I used to use perl one-liners for simple arithmetic. Then I used bsh. Then I used JavaScript. Eventually I discovered that python had the least startup time and the easiest syntax in interactive mode. I do less simple arithmetic now that GNUcash supports expressions in numeric fields.
Speaking of Wine, I don't use it a lot. I have some Windows foreign-language-study programs that run just fine under it. Some Windows games run all right under it; the occasional crash is part of the fun
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Re:Open for Closed
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For one
Everyones a skeptic, I know, but there are a few good signs. For one, the dev work isn't being done at Microsoft, its being spearheaded by the MONO crew. The Microsoft folks are kind of technical advisors, in direct contact with the Linux developers, giving advice and recommendations on implementation, etc. That I think is the biggest sign this will be a success. This isn't an internal project that we know of based on a memo or press release, this is an active project which has screenshots and source that can be downloaded and played with
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For one
Everyones a skeptic, I know, but there are a few good signs. For one, the dev work isn't being done at Microsoft, its being spearheaded by the MONO crew. The Microsoft folks are kind of technical advisors, in direct contact with the Linux developers, giving advice and recommendations on implementation, etc. That I think is the biggest sign this will be a success. This isn't an internal project that we know of based on a memo or press release, this is an active project which has screenshots and source that can be downloaded and played with
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Moonlight
Adobe's CEO, calling Microsoft a '$50 billion monopolist,' has questioned whether Silverlight will be compatible with non-Windows operating systems
Thanks to project Moonlight, Siverlight is now supported on more platforms than Adobe's Flash.
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Silverlight Already supports linux.
Not officially, but the mono team has already created a silverlight client for linux.
http://www.mono-project.com/Moonlight -
Re:Multiplatform Flash?
o really? check out pictures of Silverlight on Linux from Miguel's blog.
Mono demonstrated Silverlight support in 3 weeks. They plan on having full support, packaged nicely by the end of the year (iirc). Microsoft has stated they will support Linux, even if you are skeptical, the standard is open and anyone can implement it. The Mono project is.4 -
What kind of LAMP shop are you?
If you are a PHP shop, you probably could use Phalanger to compile PHP into
If you are using Python, you could use IronPython.NET.
Just because upper-management has decided on
You could probably even keep a Linux workstation using Mono for testing the
Only the system administrators with no Windows experience need be worried at your office... not the developers. -
Re:Linux, BSD and Unix certification
My point is that a UNIX certification doesn't say much about the portability at a whole IOW not the dreamworld where everyone writes portable UNIX applications (that does not exist) but the practical world where MacOSX applications are often not portable. This reality check questions what the certification is worth. I admit I do not know the full answer, but regarding MacOSX GUI applications (which many run) there is a clear vendor lock-in. Perhaps you would understand it better if you were actually forced to dive in the sea with SGI 10+ years ago.
The compare is also wrong. Mono is opensource, ported to other platforms, and also portable. If you decide to switch away from Linux to Solaris, Mono would ensure you're able to use the same
Why, you think, Java is popular? One of the reasons is the one outlined above. The fact (Sun's) Java is open sourced also allows any other OS to port Java to their OS further increasing the practical situation of portability. -
Speaking of other stuff appart from Flash
You missed Moonlight
If we are speaking of technologies OTHER than flash, we may also mention SVG which can be scripted for animations.
Either using a simple XML extension like SMIL for timing an animation (and producing something like old versions of Flash or vector equivalent of
or going for a Turing-complete language and use scripting like JavaScript with DOM (see the SVG Tetris). -
Re:The current alternatives....
You missed Moonlight The open source version of MS Silverlight.
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Re:2027 - year of fusion power?
Mostly just to be helpful (i.e., ignore this if it's not what you are looking to do):
Use the upgrade wizard for VS2005 to move to VB.NET from VB6. Then open it in Sharpdevelop (a free IDE that is better than VS Express, but lags a bit behind VS Enterprise) and convert it from VB.NET to C#.
Why? VB.NET is barely similar to VB6. And frankly, if you have to learn the
In any case, once you have it running in VB.NET or C#, run it through the Mono Migration Analyzer.
MoMa will give you a clear report of the API calls that prevent it from running in Mono, and even more importantly, it will give Mono some feedback on the API's they need to step up and support more quickly.
I don't know what your app does, but anytime I see a chance to get more apps on Linux, I like to take the opportunity. I've been on Linux exclusively at home since 2000 and I'm a huge advocate for switching. More apps makes my "sell" easier.
Tom Caudron
http://tom.digitalelite.com/ -
Re:Linux is not another Windows
You might look into the Mono project. Doesn't yet support all the bells and whistles that you get in Microsoft's latest
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Re:Targeting Win32 Specifically? Winforms? IIS? .N
Another point is that Windows is losing developers.
And yes, if you code -
Re:.net anyone?
As much as I hate to admit it, coding in
Anyway there's always Mono... -
Don't extend GPL'd Code...
It is true that when people say "Open Source" they are primarily thinking of GPL'd code. There are other Open Source licenses and the BSD license may be what you're looking for if you want to use other people's code without giving anything back. I wouldn't call that "helping" however.
If you write code that links to GPL'd code you must release that code under the GPL but if your code does not link to GPL'd code you can keep it proprietary if you wish. Further, if you want to link to something like the KDE libraries which are released under the GPL you can still purchase a license from Troll Tech (the copyright owners) that will allow you to keep the code base closed.
I know people developing code using Mono which is a Linux implementation of some of the ECMA/ISO standards that Microsoft uses in its
So there are ways to develop programs that run on Linux without opening your source. If you don't want to give back code then don't extend GPL'd code.
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Re:Mono is not Visual Studio
WinForms is a part of the
Next time, read the whole article before you quote things out of context. Mono does not even use the Microsoft source code for Winforms, but instead "Mono's Windows.Forms implementation translates the native system events such as X11 into Win32 WM_ messages and dispatches them using the WndProc mechanism. This allows applications that depend on overriding WndProc to get some features not exposed by the APIs to still run." So they did not really clone Winforms, but wrote a library that translates X11 messages into Win32 messages, so it is more of a translation library than a cloned library. Sort of like translating Latin into Greek, or X86 code into PowerPC code, or analog into digital. -
Re:Mono is not Visual Studio
They are not clones, but they are trying to make the languages available for multiple platforms. They also make Dotnet available for multiple platforms, because C# and Visual BASIC.net use Dotnet as part of their standard framework.
The reasons why they aren't clones is because you cannot take Visual Studio code and compile it on Mono and DotGNU unless you modify the code and tweak it. That is because Mono and DotGNU are written from scratch and not actual ports of Visual Studio.
Momo does not just implement the ECMA standard, it also implements WinForms, which is outside the standard and a purely MS/Windows thing.
From the linked page:
"And that's the whole point of Winforms: to allow existing -
Re:This deal also.....
How about this patent on ADO.NET and parts of ASP.NET, both of which are MS proprietary extensions which are *not* part of the ECMA standard for C#/.NET. There are many others. The Mono team admits that their implementation of ADO.NET, ASP.NET and Windows.Forms is a "potential" problem.
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Re:I want to see someone claim again
Or perhaps even build an interpreter into the web server itself (mod_mono).
mod_mono actually just sends the request to a mod_mono_server, which is a special version of the Mono ASP.NET web server that has a special interface.
mod_mono's advantage is the ability to manage the mod_mono_server processes for you, while using standard HTTP proxying would require the user to start the process on their own.
It is pretty similar to server-side Java.
FastCGI support for Mono would be nice so that non-Apache servers could be used without having to manage your own processes. -
One for the negative nancies
Web Projects Using Mono
* Fiducial (http://fiducial.biz): Their new site uses Mono and ASP.NET.
* Wikipedia (http://wikipedia.org): WikiPedia uses Mono for its search facilities. The indexing and the actual searching is done by Mono-based applications.
* GovTrack.Us (http://www.govtrack.us/)
* GotMono.Net (http://www.gotmono.net)
* Yakugo.com (http://www.yakugo.com) is an AJAX-based English-Japanese dictionary site that uses Mono.
* [1] (http://www.saileventschedule.de) A web-based schedule for sailing events like racing and training.
More can be found at:
http://www.mono-project.com/Companies_Using_Mono#W ho_uses_Mono.3F -
Re:Now we only need a nameLinux is, and should be, so much more than a poor man's clone of either of these systems. The people who use Linux do so because they like it, not because it's free. If it were just about price any of us could have a "free" copy of windows too.
PS We all hate gnome, too. If we wanted the worst of mac combined with the worst of windows we'd just run vista! Thing is, we don't all hate GNOME. GNOME has some very innovative features, such as Beagle and the new GNOME File Chooser dialog, which make it ideal for some kinds of users. I personally prefer KDE for its superior customizability, but GNOME is by no means worthless. In the same way, I think that Mono has some very innovative features that are unique to it: Mono.Addins comes quickly to mind. Even outside of Mono, the Nemerle language is another great open-source addition to the -
Re:Option D
"Seriously, rather than copy them, try being creative for a change and invent something better."
Oh, you mean this? GTK+ is a very good toolkit (the best one, as far as I'm concerned). And GTK is available on Mono. I used it, it's good - VERY good, very easy to use. As far as I'm concerned, this is much, much better than Windows.Forms.
Look around you. There are tons of high-quality non-MS open source projects that run on Mono. You seem to be thinking that copying the Microsoft runtime library is all that Mono does. That's far from the truth.
C# is a good language. I don't care whether MS made it or the Martians - it's good, there is an open source implementation, there are open source libraries, so I will use it. -
Re:PowerShell
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Re:Mono Anyone?Stop griping and expend your efforts bringing Mono up to
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Mono Anyone?
Stop griping and expend your efforts bringing Mono up to
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Re:CPU Platform-specific?
You're mixing up Mono and Rosetta.
Mono has ports to many different CPU architectures, and these ports don't involve translating code into x86.
Rosetta's the name Apple uses for the commercial CPU emulator code from Transitive, so that OS X on x86 can run OS X programs built for PPC.
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Re:Be NOT afraid, bitches....
Are you sure that Mono does not support callouts to unmanaged code?
http://www.mono-project.com/Interop_with_Native_Li braries -
Re:Mono?Well, except Mono is a small project that Microsoft would rather see die. It will disappear when they are ready to drop litigation bombs.
Maybe you missed the news, but Microsoft and Novell (which sponsors Mono) entered into an agreement to prevent such "litigation bombs". Plus, both the C# language and the CLI are ECMA standards, and according to the Mono guys, Microsoft has been very forthcoming in their help in implementing Mono.
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Re:Does this affect Mono?
I assume from the description that this is referring to XAML, which is a format for expressing an arbitrary heirarchy of objects usually GUI controls in XML. This was introduced in
So I guess the answer is "maybe".
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Re:Saw this earlier this month in Computer magazin
Well, I know it's run by the *EVIL* Novell corporation, but there's always the option of ASP.Net through mono. In fact there was a huge push to extend ASP.Net 2.0 support in mono for the recent Race To Linux contest. It's well supported, with applications making way into the default install for several Linux distros, including Ubuntu.. I mean it's not like any major site is using it...
