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Microsoft Wants OLPC System to Run Windows XP
Stony Stevenson passed us a link to an IT News story about Microsoft's recent request that the folks behind the XO laptop redesign it to suit their needs. The company now wants to be able to run Windows XP on the highly-publicized and inexpensive portable. "Microsoft general manager ... Utzschneider says a shrunken version of Windows XP could potentially run on 2 Gbytes of flash memory. The XO, however, can only hold 1 Gbyte. As a result, Microsoft wants the XO's designers to add a slot through which more memory can be added via a secure digital (SD) card, Utzschneider said. Microsoft's renewed interest in participating in OLPC might be viewed by skeptics as an admission that a rival offering for developing markets called Classmate — which uses an Intel processor on Microsoft software — has failed to catch on."
Ahhh, good old arrogance. Is there ever an opportunity for Microsoft to be arrogant that they won't pass up?
Negroponte might be ok with Microsoft's involvement, but unless they're willing to give it all away for free, OLPC can't actually afford it.
also, don't you love it when people who go out of their way to ruin a party decide it's ok for them to attend when no one shows up to theirs?
http://www.xkcd.com/354/
First the Zune trying to play catch-up, now this? Next Microsoft will release the Zu-phone, in 2010.
Now, I'm no fan of microsoft, but they have a not-too-bad embedded OS, possibly the best OS they've ever written, that should/would run fine in less than 1GB - WinCE (or whatever marketing dingbat name they're calling it now - "Powered" I think, though I might be out-of-date). So, again, wtf?
Microsoft will want Windows to run on any hardware they aren't actively trying to kill - it spreads their monopoly. If the OLPC project succeeds, it shifts from being a competitor to kill to a platform to run on.
Looks like their back to square one. Nice to see they're not making much progress.
They are probable horrified because if all the kids grow up on linux they will prefer linux in the future. I know I use windows more because that is what I learned when I was younger and so it is less work to get adjusted to the next version.
Microsoft Wants OLPC System to Run Windows XP
Yeah, and I want to get laid. Good luck to us both, but I'm pretty sure I'll get laid before Vista runs on an OLPC. In fact, when Vista runs on an OLPC I'm going to get one and play Duke Nukem 4ever on it.
mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
Then they will have to change it to One Virus Per Child.
I don't know about the rest of you, but when it comes to influencing the parts of my brain that control aggresive behavior, clips of movie violence have nothing on this.
It seems to me that Microsoft has missed the point a little bit. The whole reason for the OLPC is to get as many laptops out there as possible. A redesign would take a long time, cost money, and have no real benefit. If they REALLLY wanted Windows on the OLPC they could redesign it do it would work on less than 1 gb of memory, but that's Logical.
One more thing to break, probably (including a 2GB SD card) a $40-$50 increase in cost per machine, for what advantage?
Given the nature of the machine, I don't see why MS should have any trouble shrinking XP to under 1GB.
Anyway, what help has MS given to the project and/or what help are they offering to make this request even remotely worth the consideration of the XO project?
Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
patented slashdot slapdown, and I will attempt to deliver my best shot:
So what M$ is saying that if you upgrade the hardware you can get a downgraded XP? That's nice.. "we're not petty or anything, but we'd rather see less laptops in the hands of children in developing countries than have them using Linux".
Well, between the Classmate going downhill and Linux being free, the only one looking to make a buck are the chair manufacturers.
Let's say there was the capacity to add another gig of flash, and XP could run on it. How much educational software would then fit in the machine? How much development tools would fit for the kids to develop apps (I'm thinking specifically of the capabilities Squeak/EToys gives the XO here)? How secure would the grid computing model be?
I think Microsoft are looking at XO as a low cost laptop instead of as a delivery platform for education and collaboration.
OLPC with Windows XP!
Now children can read their books by cool blue light! Once the capabilities of the OLPC are bumped up to run Windows comfortably, they will also be able to heat their food* on the machine itself!
* Microsoft has declined to provide food.
The the very worst part is that because Windows won't fit, Microsoft's solution is to suggest (demand) that they fix the PC. And fix it by adding cost, complication, and vulnerability to the elements. Those are the actions of a bully.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
Redesign the machine to fit our OS.
Classic.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Then I guess I'm a "purist" on this one. An internal SD slot would be nice, but then so would a Core 2 Duo... you have to draw the line and when you're shooting for $100 you have to draw it very soon. I don't think the OLPC will succeed by conforming to Wintel; by definition, if Microsoft really understood this niche, it wouldn't exist for OLPC to fill!
Hopefully they won't succeed. The last thing the OLPC project wants is locking its children into a crippled OS owned by a convicted monopolist. I'm pretty sure Microsoft is gonna say "upgrade to Windows" if they get Windows XP working on the XO.
External connectors
(...)
- Flash Expansion: SD Card slot.
See also: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/SD .You mean they're not trying to get it to run Vista?
Seriously, Microsoft just can't resist trying to get a piece of every market out there. That's why the XBox exists. I'm not saying that it's a bad thing, but I am saying that it gets kind of annoying when MS wants to push a sovereign group to make adjustments to their own products just so that Microsoft can have a piece of the action.
Of course, this would also raise the price of the OLPC portable.
I hope they ignore MS just stick with FOSS and keep the price as affordable as possible.
/* No Comment */
Such a project was no priority until Negroponte and others made OLPC come to the fore.
Too bad that back around '96 we only heard fudware/vaporware from the likes of and from ms when others kept demanding smaller windows footprint in disk space, RAM, and other resources. When competition fell and died, ms never really followed through.
Now, with virtualization (WINE, Win4Lin, VMWare, Virtual Box, Bochs, et al), numerous terminal setups, kiosk modes, a besieging amount of Open Source software, populous countries with attractive budgets, and other factors make ms just go into me-too, and copy-cat mode, innovation being just a buzzword to check off on marketing brochures and bandy in conventions.
Now, if only Open Source developers would somehow garner the attention of human interface design and make thinks vastly more polished and less rickety/designed-for-the-nerdgineer, and if people like myself (non-developers) could make use of Eclipse, Glade, Trolltech's software, and things like that, we could spark a whole new renaissance of non-ms stuff that could level the playing field.
How dare ms try to push manufacturers to add more than Linux requires to get OLPC out there. This is just to dick up the manufacturing process to delay boxes otherwise slated for OLPC assembly and deployment, at least as I see it...
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
Luckily Mr. Negroponte is an intelligent man who is not interested in profits, but in doing the right thing, and can happily tell them to fuck the hell off.
That's what I'd do anyway.
Who in the right mind would try to educate young kids about computers while using Windows?
Yes, a lot of us new geeks started on Windows, but as soon as we got to "know Unix" we jumped that crappy ship and never looked back.
GNU/Linux and FOSS are the way of the future. It's like p2p networks and RIAA. You can't magically stop the spread of open knowledge.
Negroponte will give them a stable and innovative learning platform that will benefit both their computing skills and more importantly their general education and knowledge.
Just the other day I thought about making a bumper sticker or a shirt that says "Microsoft is the reason you suck at computers."
(I've just trademarked that.) (Or is it copyrighted? WTH, I'll do both.)
If you don't know what AltaVista is (was), get off my lawn.
So they are telling us that they don't have the most competent developer team in the world and they can't overcome a little problem like that ? Noone need more than 640K, remember ?
--
No, I'm not making fun of Microsoft... they are the best, aren't they ?
Can't the slot just be mounted before the bootloader? It apparently takes HCSD cards too.
http://laptop.org/en/laptop/hardware/specs.shtml
1 Gbyte should be enough for anyone :-)
You want a low cost computer to give to the children of the world that runs XP? You're sitting on billions of capital. Your ex-CEO runs a worldwide charity. You have manufacturing experience with the XBox360. You have industry alliances with all the major chip manufacturers.
Why don't you BUILD one? I'm sure you could make it "better" and you'd have a whole new customer base. You could even lock out competitors.
Or better yet, why dontcha give away copies of Windows CE? That runs under a gig... doesn't it?
The article continues: "A Microsoft spokesperson has confirmed that a Vista-Capable OLPC release is in the works. The laptop will run Remote Desktop, connecting over the wireless network to a server running Windows Vista."
Microsoft's only argument seems to be that there's lots of educational software written for Windows that becomes available this way. But if the OLPC becomes very widespread, surely those programs will be adapted for the OLPC. If the OLPC doesn't have Windows, the software will be adapted to the Windows-less OLPC.
Terrorists can't threaten a country's freedom and democracy. Only lawmakers and voters can do that.
Where's the humor tag?
So, Microsoft wants the XO to run their operating system? Are they willing to release the source code to Windows XP *and* let kids rewrite it??
This isn't merely Microsoft wanting to change one little hardware spec. The ramifications are that the laptops will probably require more power to run that extra SD slot; the laptop will cost more for the redesign, re-molding, extra parts; the whole philosophy of the software will change and the kid's desire to explore and tinker stifled. I don't think Microsoft cares beyond a "developing countries == potential market" attitude...
p.s. If you want to buy an XO, that's also the link: http://www.laptopgiving.org/
Microsoft is not taking this seriously. If they were serious about getting some version of Windows running on this machine, they probably should start with Windows CE (or whatever they are currently calling it... Windows .NET or something?) Since it was made for PDAs (and now used on smart phones) I would guess 1GB of flash and 256MB of RAM would be spacious for it, and the CPU rather quick.
IMHO Microsoft shouldn't even attempt it. I have read Microsoft's goal in this is to try to introduce more people to Windows. But, I think it will backfire -- they will get XP shoehorned on but it won't run well or support many "normal" windows applications (due to not meeting the app's system requirements.). So rather than giving people a favorable introduction to Windows, the first impression will be like "why do people put up with this?" Of course, the Linux version on the OLPC also won't support many normal Linux apps, but it doesn't try to behave like a normal Linux distro, so this won't seem so odd.
Tell you what Microsoft, you show us the stripped-down version of XP you see running comfortably and stably, with apps, in 2GB of system flash ... and then we'll talk.
"Microsoft's recent request that the folks behind the XO laptop redesign it to suit their needs"
From: OLPC
To: Microsoft
re: Redesign
Dear Microsoft,
Our design works for us. It's set. We won't change it. Would would, however, be willing to offer XP as an alternate operating system. You'll just need to redesign it to fit our needs.
Sincerely,
The XO team
P.S.: Sorry to hear about the Classmate.
"I may be synthetic, but I'm not stupid." -- Bishop 341-B
I agree... if MS is willing to subsidize the extra cost associated with the upgraded design and will give the "shrunken" Windows XP to the project for free as an optional choice for those who wish to use it instead of the custom OS, then there's no reason to refuse. However, if it would add 1 cent to the project, or adds any type of restriction at all, I think the response to the request should be an emphatic "No."
BartPE fits on a 256MB USB Flash drive. Surely something similar would be workable in 1GB.
Or Embrace and Extinguish?
Can we PLEASE get a new set of icons? One with a foot and a gun please.
There simply are no words to describe the incredulity that I feel after reading just the summary. The people in Redmond must be high. You have to wonder what the folks developing WinCE are thinking about this. I know that you can cut Windows down to a minimal set of functions and resource usage, but that is just messed up.
You would think they have enough to worry about just trying to get Vista installed on 300,000 machines and off of the worst products of 2007 lists. I guess, if you are going to be on that list, might as well dominate the list.
Support NYCountryLawyer RIAA vs People
An XP tailored to run on flash memory would make a great live boot option for all windows users. After all there is still no windows "live cd", despite the many non-windows full featured live cds available.
I wouldn't be surprised if XP on XO was highly customised to not boot on anything but the exact XO hardware.
Let's put a slot on a device so it can collect dirt. Also will windows run well on SD memory, which is notoriously slow?
Why can't Microsoft just make their own device if they want it so badly? Why does anything with an x86 have to run Windows? Makes me wonder if we wouldn't be better off pushing solutions that run ARM, PPC, MIPS, Sparc, Microblaze, etc.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
1. You're are not legally allowed to share it with your friends, not even for educational use!
2. Viruses/Spyware - this is a computer designed to give new users an introduction to computing, and a tool for education, can you imagine the grief virii would cause here, especially in a mass scale / network environment.
3. Cost.
4. Linux is not communism, Vendor lock-in is.
I'm a sysadmin at a school in South Africa, the funding is poor, the choices we have are limited. I really feel strongly against bringing M$ into the OLPC scene, these computers are about education, sharing and hopefully the spirit of giving. Not virii, DRM, WGA, Vendor Lock-In and legal woes.
I for one would not welcome these monopolistic overlords.
... They should include the source too. Free as in speech, not beer.
This is a bizarre story, seeing as I've had a 4 gig SD card plugged into my OLPC for more than a year. It's been there the whole time, and there was even an inaccurate rumor that the slot was added just for microsoft. In fact it turned out to cost next to nothing to add the connector.
The XO I have has an SD card slot so I dunno what M$ is smoking.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
Microsoft has a long history of announcing new vaporware whenever someone does something interesting to try and keep as many people waiting until the Microsoft branded version comes out. Anyone remember Cairo? Microsoft was going to have us using a fulltext searchable metadata-rich filesystem back in the early 1990's so we didn't have to retrain to build on NeXT. Microsoft was going to be bringing us pen-based computers in the late 1980's so nobody should early-adopt with Dylan on Newton.
They don't have any intention of getting Windows to run on the OLPC. If they can buy enough time for the OLPC to run out of money, they don't have to do anything, and that is more like Microsoft. So long as Microsoft has presence in a market, the market remains stalled, and the state of the art languishes.
This is old news.
The important part is to note the verb's tense. MSFT said "we asked OLPC to add a SD card". The OLPC folks complied, and the slot's been there for a while.
Since I develop some software that's made its way onto the laptop, I managed to pick up a B2 machine a few months ago, complete with SD slot (in the most awkward place - under the monitor but above the keyboard. almost impossible to get to).
See http://www.laptop.org/laptop/hardware/specs.shtml, under the "external connectors" section.
Windows 3.0 used to run on machines with 512K (that's half a meg, not half a gig).
If Microsoft wants Windows to run on the XO, why should the XO be the one that has to make the accommodation?
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
Well, I hope when they come to Cambridge, Microsoft will realize a few things:
1) The machine is in production. It's too late to make hardware changes. Wayyyyy too late.
2) It's already got an SD slot. And it will hold a 4gb, possibly 8gb, SD device.
3) OLPC is not really interested in running Windows..or any other proprietary product (even the Marvell Libertas has been a very contentious issue). Go port XP to the XO if you want, but don't expect to be welcomed with open arms.
4) How can you be so clueless as to the above facts? Perhaps you could blithely ignore #3, but #1 and #2 are pretty evident.
... the center of the universe ... king of the world ... the Supreme Ruler ... the one who knows best ... our digital overlord ...
-- Cheers!
I think MS is just creating vaporware. Now they cabn go round and tell everybody that if they wait just little longer they can buy an KLPC laptop running windows. It will probably never happpen but it buys time, and slows the uptake of OLPC.
2008 will the year of cheap laptops (XO and Asus EEE are below $300).
Everybody will be able to afford a computer at this price.
The problem is that Microsoft's OSes is very expensive and need a lot of power to run (both with CPU speed, RAM and harddisk).
When they started working on Vista, Microsoft did bet that in the future everybody would own a supercomputer.
Today's situation shows that they guessed wrong, and that's why they are trying desperately to refurbish their old OS.
I think they made another error, since Win98 is more suitable for such computers, but they stopped maintaining it (it will be too expensive to maintain).
Note that when the hardware is cheap, the software needs to be cheap, since people won't pay an OS that costs 10% of the hardware's price !
for an answer. Microsoft has been deriding this project for a long time. Their FUD didn't shut it down, so I would question their motives now and not let them be a part of it.
If they give XP away for free, I hope they get busted for dumping to try to prevent competition.
If they need secondary storage, doesn't the laptop already have both an SD slot and a USB slot? (See the OLPC specs!) And if the SD slot is non functional, can't XP boot off of a USB flash disk?
So what's the problem?
Windows is actively damaging to a child's education. It's like teaching children creationism instead of evolution. Windows encourages a poor mental model of computation, right from its inappropriate file system metaphors up to its "piracy is bad" and DRM crap, and lack of exposed internals (the OLPC with it's Python UI allows hackery of the interface by the smarter kids). C
Copyright law is a great evil in society, and it's important that children are taught to question it. Windows won't do that.
It seems MS is trying hard to get XP to work on the OLPC, but since the SD connection is not a standard one, they need to make the drivers to all the hardware themselves AND they so definitely can not touch any olpc GPL code they need to be very careful! Things are not going as smooth as MS would like it to be.
Some interesting stories:
concerns for this all
general info about the things MS is doing
Dependency hell? =>
So let me get this straight.... Microsoft spent about ten years making version after version after version of Windows, each absurdly more bloated the last and each requiring absurdly more hardware resources than the last, just to run decently. They always targeted each new version for the high-end PC hardware available at the time. This was no accident; customers have complained about it for the entire lifetime of the Windows product line.
Meanwhile, over roughly the same decade, Linux has grown enormously in power while only growing modestly in bloat and resource requirements.
Now someone designs a clever new inexpensive and intentionally very low-powered computer -- something Microsoft never had the vision to anticipate or prepare for. Linux runs fine on this new computer because unlike Windows, Linux has long been designed for flexibility and adaptibility to diverse hardware, including the very low-end. Microsoft suddenly decides they want a piece of this action, even though they've intentionally designed Windows in such a way as to preclude this possibility, and then they have the nerve to ask the hardware manufacturer to change the hardware to accomodate their bloat?
Unbelievable. I hope the OLPC folks tell Microsoft to sleep in the bed they made for themselves.
Who wouldn't want a WinXP version with source code attached? :)
If i was Negroponte, i wouldn't say a flat 'NO'. I would ask for the source code
Patents Drive Free Software as Hurricanes Drive Construction Industry
... Microsoft to close their software business.
Microsoft has done it before. Most keyboards have two keys to the left and right of the spacebar with their Windows logo on it being the most obvious to the end-user. Not to mention the "designed for:" stickers that have appeared in recent years.
Since they've managed to muscle their way into the common PC hardware, they somehow feel it's their birthright to do the same with the XO.
Maybe if they can't recover quickly enough from the Vista debacle, they'll regain a perspective of their place in the heirarchy of computing.
SIGN ME UP! This would KILL Vista forever!!!
If I could get a $100 laptop that ran a stripped down XP? I'd wallpaper my house with them! OLPR (One Laptop per Room and two in the LOO!) And then, when Vista 2012 comes out, and they want me to upgrade for some super new feature (like being able to print a date (human-type)... I WILL TELL THEM TO KISS MY SHINY METAL XO! Because anything that I need really DOES run on XP, and whatever they are trying to peddle will have the built-in hardware upgrade cost.
A Grid Networking cheap laptop that runs what I've been running at work for 6 years? That would spread through universities and many businesses like Ice-9. Whole universities and neighborhoods would become one single grid. Comcast would have one cable modem per 10 square miles. The market would freeze over to XOs and MS would have to shove Office 2012 down the throats of those using Office XP, as content as a MS user can be. WHY WHY WHY would we upgrade to Vista 2012? SIgn me up!!! And let's start freezing MS with their own OS!!!
And so it goes...
> Microsoft has declined to provide food.
:-)
Really? Because I imagine they'll have plenty of spam...
Of course they did. Since it comes with the operating system, you pay for it when you purchase the OS.
If they gave IE away for free, I could legally download it and install it under Wine. But I can't legally do that. You have to have a copy of MS-Windows, which means you're really just getting an upgraded component (web browser) of the OS.
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
I for one welcome the possibility of XP working on the memory that OLPC has. I mean look at all the people with older laptops that will now be able to run XP and double boot, no need to buy new laptop or up grade. Go for it MS. I've got XP on an CF-27 with 256MB and it is sooo slow. I'm looking to putting Sugar on it, to dual boot. Of course when I get my OLPC, in the next couple of weeks, I will not be putting XP on it. :)
Increasing the spec to be able to run XP would be stupid on many levels.
It was designed to be very low power, so even with a small internal battery, it can run a long time. It is light and rugged so if you drop it it won't break. It doesn't need lot of cooling airflow, so it won't collect dust and dirt inside. Change any of those parameters and you have not only a more expensive product, but a much worse one.
For what? So you can run legacy programs that were not designed for that hardware or tuned for the cultural context?
So what does this have to do with OLPC? The OLPC is one of the few machines that cannot, for all intents and purposes, run MS products. Therefore they cannot force anyone to install MS Windows on it under the assumption that they buying the OLPC to pirate MS Windows. MS will have difficulty including the OLPC in the site license fees, as the OLPC will not run the licensed software.
It is my opinion that MS views each OLPC as long term lost revenue. It is like an worker who upon losing his or her job to a lower paid competitor complains that the other worker is taking food out the mouths of the family. Using the standard logic that corporate uses to justify long prison sentences against pirates, I suspect they will put a value on the lost long term revenue, say $100, multiply by the number of OLPC sold, say 10 million, and claim that the OLPC is costing the a billion a year in revenue, all the problems of the tech industry is caused by the OLPC, the OLPC steals MS tech, and laws should be past prohibiting the sale of the OLPC.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
From TFA: Microsoft general manager ... Utzschneider says a shrunken version of Windows XP could potentially run on 2 Gbytes of flash memory.
POTENTIALLY? 2GB? Are you kidding me? I run my entire Gentoo system from 1GB with multiple browser windows, email, a dozen ssh sessions, and compiling updates or the latest code I'm working on and NEVER touch the swap file. Seriously, only potentially run? I'm appalled, yet not surprised. Microsoft can't fix their OS so they expect everyone else to square the hole for their peg to fit in. Idiots.
Pax Vobiscum
General Mills wants the every major sports figure to start eating Wheaties for breakfast,
All this is is microsoft realizing that it won't control a market share of the third world. Heaven forbid they be left out of the game even though in the beginning they saw nwo promise in it. As far as I am concerned microsoft has no power or sway at least not enough to change the platform of the pc considering the time it took to design the current one. Mind you they ha to do this without microsoft support. So microsoft can "go suck on a lemon" for all I care.
Windows on a mac is Windows under Supervision. - Frank Soltis(Chief Scientist/Designer of AS400)
If Microsoft feels comfortable shrinking Windows XP down to 2 gigabytes then why didn't they in the first place!?
Instead of adding a memory slot, they should put a "Windows XP Capable" sticker on the computer.
Is it really hard to believe Microsoft actually wants kids to have laptops? Look at Bill Gates and his foundation, they donate billions to help kids and the entire planet. Of course, there is a corporate benefit to doing this, stocks go up. I bet if Apple wanted in on this, they would get praise. According to date I found, Windows has 90% of the OS market (I think less because Apple was gaining by alot). You'd think common sense would say, give away laptops with the OS with the most market. Microsoft didn't need to get into the One Laptop Per Child idea, like I said, they have the market for OS and Office software. If Microsoft wanted, they could reduce the footprint XP leaves anyways.
How about M$ adjusting Windows to operate on the laptop? There is nothing preventing them from doing so.
Pushing new hardware requirements on OLPC, after all that they had to go through to get the hardware they are using for the price they finally had to go with, will require probably a redesign and I doubt M$ is willing to do anything to help with that...
Clones are people two.
This is very old news. The OLPC has a SD slot and should be capable of running XP as it is now. From the OLPC website:
I think the hackability of the OLPC will be precisely what makes it interesting to use. Ultimately, in all other ways, it should be used to replace books. There's a great deal of value in putting pen to paper in that for many, it also puts pen to mind in a more indelible fashion. But the hackability aspect will give greater ability for young minds to learn and create processes as well as learning to create and engineer a bit with objects. These principles go well beyond the realm of working with computers and into structuring thought and logical analysis of just about anything in life that comes their way.
Teaching people how to think is one of the biggest holes in current educational systems I have experienced. And learning to hack on a toy computer can offer up a lot of educational experience in that regard.
It could be cool. As Windows would only be running from the SD card, so you must have the SD card to use it. It wouldn't be wise to not have Sugar as then the flash memory is blank, and the computer will not work without the SD card.
signature is pants
A few months ago I got to sit down at a sidewalk cafe in NYC's East Village, with an OLPC. You wouldn't believe the attention it got. No, it wasn't from PC people talking about how it would, or wouldn't, solve the world's problems, but how darn cute it was (With those silly looking ears). Every girl who saw it said "Can I surf the internet and check my email on it? What, only $400? I can afford that.". We told everyone, buy one when they go on sale to the public, in limited release, and you will support a child in a developing country. They responded with it's so small (The PC, not child), hardly knowing what it was really designed for. Of course, talking later in private to the individual whose OLPC it was, we were skeptical whether we gave good advice on them buying one, at least for their own use. The OS interface was pretty funky, and really designed for small children. However, with XP, I would recommend it to anyone who needs and internet PC. So, if you look at it running XP for use in the US, maybe it is a blessing in disguise. Add to that, the OLPC GUI interface is designed for a child, and would probably be more intuitive and therefore more successful in third word countries for small children.
And if MS really cared about the kids, the Bill and Melinda Foundation would be distributing the laptops (complete with XP if they so chose) to "the kids" for free. They could even help with cross-cultural training by teaching the kids how to play with Clippy and the Search Puppy.
If Microsoft developed a new Windows "lite" that ran on limited hardware but included some of the core advantages of XP over 98 (like not having to reboot after changing network settings, or shutting down properly) their market would not only be the OLPC, it would be everyone with an old PC that wanted a supported OS.
Seriously, MS needs to drop the bloat and make an efficient OS for once.
Oh the humanity of it all. Won't any of the oppressive save-the-children laws prevent THIS kind of abuse?
Microsoft want them to do a costly redesign, which will increase unit cost just to accomodate their software which is obviously more bloated than the software the OLPC already runs.
What's worse is they're trying to port an old version of their software to it, while telling everyone else that version is obsolete and shouldn't be used.
OLPC aims to help kids in the third world, by providing them a cheap rugged computer they can learn about and build up a community around.
Microsoft just want to get them locked in now, so that when they need support or are looking to buy more machines in the future they have no choice but to pay top dollar to microsoft, or risk losing access to their accumulated data.
The idea behind using open source is that those kids who are naturally technically minded will learn how to support and develop for the system, and create their own local skillbase they can use to support the less technically minded kids around them.
http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
...wow, that is so far off.
When/How did politics get involved with any of this? What, at all, does OLPC do that is immoral? How does "hypocracy" at all come into play with OLPC's mission statement? Where the hell do you get the idea that there are FOSS advocates who simply use the OLPC as a way to spite Microsoft?
What OLPC is about is bringing computers to parts of the world with low income. So what does that mean? The computers have to have as much of an inexpensive design as possible while still being functional. Therefore, it is necessary to choose an operating system that 1) is least demanding of powerful hardware, and 2) is cost-efficient. A GNU/Linux distro immediately solves number 2. Zero cost. As for number 1, an open-source operating system allows you to truly fine-tune it to only include what is really needed, thus allowing you to remove unnecessary things that would eat up memory and disk space. Windows won't let you do that.
OLPC could really care less about trying to shoot Microsoft out of the water. If people choose to pay for Windows and Office, more power to 'em.
But if they have a truly low budget and want a functional computer for the least amount of money, then OLPC would be the best way to bring computing to their children and schools.
No "FOSSies" "using" children. No "rabid" extremism. No hypocrisy in any of that.
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They don't offer any x86 CPUs that match up the power/performance profile that the XO currently
has with the AMD embedded device they've chosen for it. While it's sub-optimal for a "modern"
user of PC's it's not at all suboptimal for what they're gunning for (it's actually a decent
performer.)- the closest thing would be VIA's Eden stuff as it's in the same bang for buck
space.
AMD's got concerns, but they're not out of the picture by a long shot. If VIA joined in, they
might have some concern (As VIA has some higher performing parts, compared to the AMD parts used...)
but since they're not...
IF Microsoft can winnow out their crap, they might have a place. As it stands, unless they can
come to the table with something that works out for the OLPC project in the same way as the current
Red Hat derived OS offers, I'd be telling them to go pound sand if I were Mr. Negroponte.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
The all-time Kings of FUD are stepping up to the plate and saying that they are considering offering an obsolete and unsupported operating system for entry level users running certain hardware? Let me know how that works out. I would watch just for the train wreck but I can't see how MS plans to even begin to show up unless they plan to "innovate" Linux lock, stock and filesystem. Even then, I don't think they have the chops left to do much more than put a penny on the tracks.
I ran Win2k and was quite happy with it... until it bloated itself off my paltry 10gig hard drive. Not so with Linux. It was much easier for me to switch to Ubuntu and learn all sorts of new stuff than to keep an old copy of Windows running securely and swiftly.
Alternatively, I did consider putting an nlited version of WinXP on my Asus EEE just so that I could get easy, streamlined GPS software running.
The right tool for the job and all, y'know?
The pain was excruciating and the scarring is likely permanent, but that just means it's working.
It amazes me how arrogant MS is in this matter. These are laptops designed to be perfect for kids and to educate them and facilitate their access to communications. How does MS think Windows compares? These laptops all mesh seamlessly with one another, using zeroconf to auto-discover other OLPCs and share pictures and music, chat, collaborate on compositions, writings, programs, drawings, and educational games, and share network access. MS hasn't even managed to implement zeroconf in Vista, despite it being a well established standard in use on every other OS, by printers and hardware, and even implemented by specific applications running in Windows (Adobe CS3, Trillian, iTunes). There is even a free reference implementation for .Net, but they haven't bothered to incorporate it. Hey geniuses, why don't you catch up in your core market for a change, instead of trying to destroy competition and innovation in a different one, especially one as important as educating kids.
Did anyone else catch the fact that they did not even attempt to squeeze Vista in there?
Another black mark for Vista.
So long Microsoft, and thanks for all the BSODs.
Question everything
microsoft.... is pushing XP?
when they are trying so hard to push vista to the rest of us?
when they plan to eol XP as soon as possible to kill vistas main competition?
and for the record... properly stripped. xp will fit. and run. in 1 gig. 500 meg for the os filesystem. 250 for the memory needed. in 2 gig that would be more than enough. 1.25 gig for program use.
Microsoft: "Please make the OLPC more expensive so we can force our software on children"
Copyright infringement is "piracy" in the same way DRM is "consumer rape"
I've been playing with my Asus Eee PC for the last week or so, spending most of my time trying to optimize WinXP on it. The problem is that after you install XP, about 90 XP HotFixes, DirectX, .NET Framework, and a 512MB page file.. you've already used up about 3GB. Stripping out non-essentials like System Restore helps, but once you throw on an app or two, you'll probably have XP screaming at you that you're running out of drive space on a 4GB drive. As a result, I had to offload the OS onto a 8GB SD card.
SD cards aren't cheap, and it will seriously offset the OLPC original price. If MS plans on getting XP w/ security HotFixes to fit onto 2GB with room to spare for adding apps, I figure they'll have to come out with a very stripped-down and feature-limited version of XP (sort of like what XPLite does).
Whoever said this has something rather highly important to say. Said post has a visible tendency to bypass everything said so far. Give it your points!
So, Bill, how do you square this with your charitable foundation's efforts to give the Third World a hand up? Because it seems to me like, between this and the Classmate, you'd just like to keep them hooked on Microsoft products, just like you've done with the developed world for the last while. And of course, they'll never get any ownership of the software you'd like them to use, you just want to keep them sucking the Microsoft tit ad infinitum.
A good friend of mine's just been out in Nigeria, seeing how the OLPC initiative's going down and reporting on it for the BBC. He said that the effect it has had on the children is amazing - they've taken to them like ducks to water, and they're hugely proud of them because for most of them it's the most precious thing they own. However, getting Internet access out into rural Nigeria is astronomically expensive (at the minute, over $10,000 per month for a 56 kilobit satellite connection) and he thinks this will be a major stumbling block.
He was also taken to a school which has been kitted out by Intel as a showcase for the Classmate. He said it was stunning - Intel had pumped a fortune into it and the facilities were better than most schools in the UK. Teachers had interactive whiteboards, there was WiMAX everywhere and a superfast connection to the outside world, etc. etc. He was bowled over. And so were the politicians that Intel showed it to, with the result that 1,000 schools are signed up to take delivery of Classmates.
So yet again, we have an organisation trying to do The Right Thing being trampled by big corporations with deep pockets, who see places like Nigeria as nothing but "emerging markets" to be brought under their yoke as quickly as possible, and who aren't prepared to let upstarts like OLPC take their market away before it's established.
I really hope they keep Windows off this thing.
From the ies4linux website: "Please, don't use any of these IEs to navigate!! Get Firefox."
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
Microsoft's renewed interest in participating in OLPC might be viewed by skeptics as an admission that a rival offering for developing markets called Classmate -- which uses an Intel processor on Microsoft software -- has failed to catch on
Wrong..
1) As I've said several times Classmate PC doesn't necessarily run Windows and MFST doens't necessarily like it.
2) Actually, Classmate has sold more units than OLPC, I believe - so if it has failed to catch on, then presumably the OLPC has failed as well.
I don't understand OLPC - at all.
/. break right now." Nightlights are a foreign concept to these kids. Never mind paycheque to paycheque - some folks live day-to-day, eating whatever they can find.
I really don't get it.
Sure, it's great to give a kid a computer. Isn't it better to give the kid some medicine, drinking water, or food?
You guys may find it hard to believe, but there are places that are three days away from ELECTRICITY. A kid spending his day farming isn't going to say, "man, I could really go for a
So why are we giving away laptops? Is it because we think that we can genuinely help them by providing a computer to a remote village? Do we have nothing else we can give? They don't want code. They want food.
Or am I missing something here?
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ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
Apple taught Microsoft to do this long long ago. Apple knew that if it got people using the Mac at an early age they'd use it later. Microsoft knows that if they get XP on OLPC then those children will use it. With Linux going onto that platform those children will learn that Linux is a great platform for anyone of any age.
What we need to do is to do everything in our power to ensure that Microsoft doesn't succeed with these tactics. We don't need a world dominated by a convicted predatory monopolist.
You can lead a man with reason but you can't make him think.
This has nothing to do with XP on OLPC, or a measly half a million dollars. What it has to do is with country after country after country choosing non-Microsoft products. When these children and their parents see how well open source software works, they will consider alternative products for their businesses and governments, rather than Microsoft's offerings. This could add up to $billions of lost sales for our friends in Redmond.
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
That's what I ran XP on for four or five years before I got my laptop (NOT OLPC - regular ole HP) and with less than 3GB of HD space for userspace and WinXP and apps. I probably could have cut most of that HD space. (case in point, the system is still running, and doesn't use 80% of the full 13 GB that I have installed, and most of that space is MP3 [60%+])
I don't see why it's impossible that people would run it on that, and I did some devel work amongst other things on it, so I say it would be entirely plausible. And the other things that I did with that comp involved 3D models in AutoCAD. I don't mean you're average little 3D ball or anything, but whole facilities layouts (I'm a dork) with all electrical, plumbing, HVAC, furniture, doors, windows, bricks on the side of the building (I said I'm a dork) and all done in 3D wireframing in Acad2K.
So I would say that it (XP + 400MHZ + 128MB + ~5GB*) is plenty fast enough and with enough room, and solely based off experience.
Now, the question still remains, would they?
*what's the storage spec on the OLPC?
2^3 * 31 * 647
Does this mean Microsoft will support WinXP for many more years? hmmm
The fact that there are existing GPL drivers for the hardware is a red-herring (and just more of Microsoft's GPL FUD).
If there are published specs for the hardware, they can write drivers from the specs.
If there are no published specs for the hardware, they can pay an outside consulting firm to reverse-engineer specs from the GPL code.
We're not talking about patents here, we're talking about copyrights. You want to avoid violating copyrights in GPL software, write your own fucking code.
Either way, they have to write new drivers anyway -- because the existing drivers are for Linux.
### The OS interface was pretty funky, and really designed for small children
I don't think so. Sure, it lacks a few features, like non-fullscreen window or the excessive menubars that you might see in 'real' applications, but its really not all that different, you still have a taskbar, a dock and all that stuff. They might look a little different, but the basic behavior is very much the same. Its a simplified interface, but I don't see anything that is specifically designed for small children, no cute Teddybears or other crap that you might find in other applications for children, just a simply, clean, black&white interface, not all that different then what you will find on other mobile devices as well.
It's not about revenue, at least direct revenue.
Microsoft has absolutely no intention of ever actually putting it's software on the OLPC.
The strategy here is to delay or stop OLPC adoption cold. IF there are rumors that an MS version of the OLPC is 'just around the corner' compatible with those 'thousands of educational programs' then a lot of buyers will wait for the new version to come out.
This is what killed the Osborne lo these many years ago. The sales people kept talking about the next bigger better faster version which meant that no one wanted to buy the version that was on the market NOW.
I laughed out loud when I read the title to this article, and kept chuckling when I actually read the article. This is all about MS just trying to through a monkey wrench in the OLPC machinery, and NOTHING to do with a serious effort on their part to bring their fantastic product to developing world.
Not just answers, the correct questions.
A kid spending his day farming isn't going to say, "man, I could really go for a /. break right now."
Well...they'd better get their damn priorities STRAIGHT!
And furthermore, how's he supposed to survive without his quota of porn...or be unable to have a MySpace page for gosh sakes!
If you've never been modded as "flamebait" or "troll," you've never tried to argue a minority viewpoint here!
The biggest issue, IMHO, is that making something that can run Windows adds extra constraints and drives up hardware costs. For example, Windows needs x86 and lots of RAM. That automatically prevents making a lot od design decisions such as using ARM CPUs and smaller RAM footprints - which would have made a cheaper, lower power device (less hand cranks per page load).
Engineering is the art of compromise.
A $100 laptop will last a lot longer than $100 of food will. Plus, they'll help with the kids education, which might just help them escape the poverty cycle they're in. Teach a man to fish, and all that.
As for the electricity point, that's probably why solar and mechanical generators are being developed.
Tomorrow, I may eat another house plant
Because Microsoft is entitled to have that publicly-subsidized platform train a new generation of global Windows slaves.
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make install -not war
The XO already has USB ports. So the XO can be expanded with a USB memory stick - or even a hard drive for use at a desktop with power. The USB ports are hardened against dirt/water. I suspect it would require more effort to harden a SD slot. Furthermore, if they do add a flash slot, I read a showdown between the durability of various flash formats, and compact flash won hands down. The ultimate test was giving the memory sticks to 6 year old boys and instructing them to destroy the sticks. The boys pounded them with rocks, etc, in their efforts. Only the compact flash survived that test. CF isn't the smallest format, but I'm not sure that is the most important feature for where the XO needs to go, and it is small enough.
Wouldn't that count as child abuse?
Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
I partly agree, but it's kind of an over-simplification. There are of course intermediate levels of poverty where children have access to the very basic resources as well as education, but their families or schools can't afford your average computers. OLPC is aiming to that crowd, I think, which is likely to be quite large and will largely benefit from it.
There are already thousands of these being ordered worldwide, so the idea can't be that bad.
I thought that MS only pushed for vista...
"Utzschneider says a shrunken version of Windows XP could potentially run on 2 Gbytes of flash memory. "
TinyXP* runs in 400MB of disk and 40MB of RAM. Seems like someone already voluntarily did all of the work on shrinking XP. Kudos to them.
Is there some difference between running on flash memory versus regular disk? I know that its reccomended to use something like jffs to spread the I/O out across the entire range of a flash disk, but that doesn't seem like a show stopper.
*http://www.secguru.com/link/tinyxp_run_xp_from_400mb_hdd_and_under_40mb_ram was the most succinct summary Google came back with. Torrents are everywhere.
Yes you are. Giving food destroys the local economy. Giving medicine helps in the short term but what about the future? It takes real world skills to move from a 3rd world to a 2nd world economy.
Anyway, OLPC works best in areas with a little infrastructure and working poor. It's a tool that could open much of the world to the world economy vs. aid without end. The 3rd world is not going to grow up in the same way we did. They are happy to skip land lines and go strait to cell phones and they are happy to skip over DOS. All they need is something to trade and like India and China the economy will start go grow rapidly.
"A $100 laptop will last a lot longer than $100 of food will."
A child with $100 worth of food will last a lot longer than a child with a $100 laptop.
Let's see - files and folders can be nested inside one another.... Doesn't seem that "Wrong" to me. Teaching children that stealing is wrong? Nope - not much wrong there... There are many reasons to dislike Windows, but the reasons you listed aren't among them.
http://timcol6.freehostia.com/
Microsoft should look at nLite or XPlite. If They can shrink xp you would think Microsoft could do it too!
XPlite claims it can do a 350MB install.
It's about giving people the means not to have to always rely on others for food.
It's about have the next generation with enough computer skills to attack businesses. Companies - for better or worse (my job has started outsourcing so I personally don't like it) move their businesses where work is cheap. When the business comes, the electricity comes, the running water comes, and the food comes.
A population dependent on people's "good will" will never be a well fed population.
You might be surprised to find that in shanty towns in Johannesburg people have TVs even though they don't electricity. How you ask? They use car batteries.
You underestimate how important consumer electronics and information access are to people. People don't just go without water because their homes are not connected to the water supply. They grab it from the nearest well. Same is true for electricity.
Famine relief is important, but different types of aid are not mutually exclusive. And one might even argue that the OLPC project is more beneficial in the long term. You know, the whole teach a man to fish cliche. People make this sort of argument about any kind of cause: why do we care about human rights in China when people are dying of AIDS in Africa. People help in ways they are in a position to help. Folks at the MIT Media Lab are best at making gadgets, god bless 'em for putting their skills to good use. I'd rather them work on OLPC than mail flour to Sudan in bulk. Other organizations have the expertise and the resources to provide that kind of relief.
Think of potential future Nigerian scams.
This is my sig. There are thousands more, but this one is mine.
There are already plenty of groups focusing on bringing medicine to poverty-stricken peoples.
There are already plenty of groups working on trying to provide them with better food.
There are even more and more philanthropists providing them with funding to be able to purchase things that will help improve their homes and lives.
But the concept of providing them with an education is still a fairly new ground. With better educations, children from poor villages stand a better chance of gaining professions in different fields which ultimately benefit their families and their communities. OLPC is a group which is providing affordable computing resources which may prove to be invaluable in educating them.
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WinCE runs on various architectures, but it is a toy OS. Still, CE would be capable of serving educational goals.
Many of the experimental NT kernels (PowerPC, MIPS, etc) sowed some of the seeds for WinCE.
XP Embedded does not provide the full MS experience. To get people addicted to MS KoolAid needs more than that.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
Perhaps GP was not explicit enough about the poverty that some parts of the third world experience. We're talking people trying to live on a dollar per day, or less. Or, to be graphic, we're talking about the kids who follow the ploughing ox about in the hopes that they can be the first to get to the droppings on the chance that some undigested grain made it through. And undigested grain is quite likely because that ox, like most oxen in the country, has severe intestinal parasites. ( I'm not making this up. It was in a major news magazine a few years ago; the writer saw children in Africa doing it. )
And they hope to someday - if they are lucky - become the guy who owns the sick ox, because he is the richest person for miles around.
These people need food, clean water, electricity, medical supplies, and maybe someone to teach them to read. If you want to make him really rich, give him a hand saw with some spare blades.
His name is Rover. You would know that if you ever used MS Bob. Man I miss Bob. I added that to my startup menu an did EVERYTHING through it...it was like a second OS! I had 1 of every type of room, complete with custom doors to get to ALL of them if I so chose, and hidden passages covered by dragons, and safes covered by calendars. Boy those were good times! :-D And it had an awesome calendar, database, and checkbook. I learned SOOO much using GeoSafari, too!
Time to break out the 133 pentium with windows 95 again...
Doesn't seem that "Wrong" to me.
Actually it is. The filesystem is a DAG, not a strictly nesting containment tree. Files aren't "in" directories, they're linked to one or more directories. No major OS has a consistent and correct graphical metaphor for the reality of the filesystem, as it happens, so not strictly Windows' fault.
Teaching children that stealing is wrong
Copyright infringement is not stealing. Teaching impressionable children that it is is wrong.
It is a very subtle and idealistic concept. The entire idea behind it is that the real problem of the third world isn't about medicine, drinking water, or food -- the OLPC is really targeted at kids that have their survival needs taken care of. It's based on the assumption that the real problem is a lack of education and access to information. That if you could give children these two, they would be able to obtain better medicine, drinking water and food.
You guys may find it hard to believe, but there are places that are three days away from ELECTRICITY.That's why it can be wound up.
A kid spending his day farming isn't going to say, "man, I could really go for aReally? I suppose he wouldn't be too interested in the Natalie Portman jokes or iPhone banter, but neither most poor people nor most slashdotters are so insular and parochial. The OLPC and the Internet facilitate people talking to people, and is thus an absolute good.
This attitude that all slashdotters are ignorant of poverty, and that all the poor people on Earth have no interest in technology or the availability of information is deeply snobbish, imho. I don't know if this was exactly your point, but I just wanna be on the record as against it ;).
Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
On a potentially multi-user system, the best place to store application config files that should be user-specific is in the (single) application folder? Teaching kids to assume that everyone is stealing, and that no one might actually want you to share their media? And of course, completely uncustomisable interfaces on something that's meant to be a personally-customised tool? Sounds pretty wrong to me.
1. Embrace
2. Extend
3. Extinguish
Phone: Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing. Collect call from marketing department.
Ballmer: What? You mean that we can't embrace them because we can't design an OS to run on their hardware!? Well then, think of the children! The hardware requirements are too low, they won't be able to do anything! Think of the children!
Ballmer waits a bit longer....
Ballmer: What!? What's lynax? A smaller operating system...then they won't be able to do anything! What? It can open Word Documents? Quick - get the lawyers on this - they had to have hacked us to get that.
Waits.
Ballmer: What? We can't run our operating system even close to theirs? How do they expect us to do better? We hold all of their IP! They can't do anything.
Marketing guy responds.
Ballmer: What are you talking about, we have no base to belong to anybody! How the hell are we supposed to extinguish them?
Seems kind of odd that Linux developers have now outdone Microsoft. Microsoft can really embrace them...because Microsoft is asking to be embraced by them. Microsoft can't extend on their idea, because OLPC has done their homework. And their feeble attempt to extinguish OLPC is laughable at best.
My friends, I believe we are seeing the beginning of the end for Microsoft. Good night and good riddance.
... teaching kids how to use the dominant operating system on the planet may not be a bad thing.
Yes Linux is gaining ground and is now on par with Windows or better, but in this case the diversity could be a good thing.
No matter how the OS war goes, MS Windows will be a significant OS for a very long time.
Teaching kids the ins and outs of it could benefit them.
If the country buying the laptops wants to teach their youth Windows, let them. If they want to teach them Linux, the same should apply.
*BUT*
OLPC should set down the ground rules for MS:
- The version of windows should be provided to OLPC for free.
- The additional cost needed to upgrade the hardware to support WinXP should be covered by MS.
- The upgraded hardware should be compatable with the Linux based OS that OLPC is using (incase the customer state wants to switch OSs)
- If MS decides that the contribution is not in their interests in the future, they must continue to support those countries that bought the XP version.
MS would jump on these conditions because it creates a future market for them, and only benefits OLPC because there are more options for their clients.
Just my 2 cents
MODS, remember that there is not a -1 Disagree for a reason.
Remember folks, slashdot doesn't have a -1 "disagree" moderation!
Microsoft has also committed itself beyond the point of no return to Fister and to prematurely scrapping XP - despite Fister being "Windows ME Part 2", having to climb down on that decision would be a huge loss of face to Microsoft.
So what better than to find an excuse for continuing to support XP (and therefore do a U-Turn) than to push getting it onto the OLPC platform? Microsoft gets to "reinvigorate" XP on the OLPC and Fister fades into obscurity...
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
My niece wants a pony. What's your point, Microsoft?
The one kid unlucky enough to get a Windows machine will just have enough to make up for the rest of the linux-running village.
We need another tag for stuff like this.
"CHUTZPAH"
[End Of Line]
Ah, so it's not the "survival" poor that are the targets. It's those who are in a classroom who are able to get their basic needs met on a reliable basis.
I was thinking about it all wrong - I use the word "need" only when referring to food, water, clothing, and shelter. (And air, but that's usually around.) So I want Internet access, but I need water. I want a computer, but need a house to put it in.
Buying a computer - even a $500 US laptop - is so ridiculously expensive to most of the world that those folks are relying on donated computers from the 1st world. Rather than rely on the rejected 30-year-old textbooks, the students with these machines can use IRC and talk directly so someone. I had the target market incorrect in my head.
Here I thought that the OLPC crowd was just being slacktivists.
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ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
Good move, Bill! And they can starve to death while you put a new extension on the house and buy Melinda a new pair of diamond earrings.
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
What, does the word zealot not appear in your mental dictionary?
"One who espouses a cause or pursues an object in an immoderately partisan manner."
That's a good definition, and definitely appropriate.
"It is possible to commit no errors and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." -Peak Performance
Instead of just parroting somebody, as if that is great satire from an intellectual mind, why don't you actually do some work there and type in a few real rebuttals?
You know, something like this:
Copyright law is a great evil in society
No, Disney invested a lot of money in Steamboat Willie and deserves to have it protected until the end of time. The idea that anyone should be able to steal somebody else's idea is communist and anarchist. Why, what would have happened if anyone could steal anyone else's great works, like Buster Keaton or Rudyard Kipling?
Windows is actively damaging to a child's education
You don't want to teach children how to think for themselves. That makes for terrible consumers. Better to wait until they have grown up and shown responsibility before lettnig them learn how to think independently and work out puzzles on their own.
Windows encourages a poor mental model of computation...from its... "priacy is bad"...
Of course piracy is bad! The MPAA and RIAA have put a lot of work into creating laws for us to follow (see the second point above) and it is their prerogative to make us pay for every time we listen to anything and to pay for singing Happy Birthday -- you didn't write it, why should you get to sing somebody else's hard work for free? What makes you think you should be able to pay once and listen to something on several different devices or at different times? Next thing you know, people will consider it their right to play music on a stereo that multipel people can listen to at once without individual headphone-enabled properly paid for copies.
Infuriate left and right
We get this question a lot. It's a good question.
Yes. If a child doesn't have access to medicine, clean drinking water, or food, those are all more important.
But, even more common than communities that don't have access to those, are communities that do, but still don't have access to education, or communications.
No, but he might say, "I wonder if I can sell some of my excess crops within a reasonable distance", or "Can I get some other kinds of seeds that can grow here" or "Is my brother who I haven't heard from since he fled the village after the last war out there somewhere?"
And the teacher in his school might say "I wish I had an encyclopedia in my language I could show these kids to aid in their lessons."
And his doctor might say "I'm so glad I have a way to consult with my colleagues to help diagnose this kid's disease so he has a good chance of recovery."
Yes. Yes we can. In addition to the above, how about the AIDS educator who can put together a better presentation to try to convince the local city council to help out?
Or the orphan who is able to learn some bookkeeping and is thus able to get a job in a local shop? Or the girl who's able to learn enough science to earn a scholarship to a nearby university?
All of these, of course, are examples from real projects where people have used computers donated by GWoB or other organizations.
Depends who you mean by "They". There are people who are, literally, starving. Long before they can make use of any donated computers, they need food, then help with infrastructure for growing food and getting a steady supply of clean drinking water. Though in most cases, that's more of a political problem. Extra resources won't help if the local warlord intercepts them because he wants to exterminate you.
But that is, overall, only a tiny portion of the entirety of what's needed out there. OLPC, GWoB, and many other groups are addressing some of the rest of it.
And, just as an extra note about the local tyrant, it is of note that the indigenous people of Chiapas were able to bring pressure to bear on their government because they were able to get the word out quickly thanks in large part to their access to computers, and the internet. Without the internet, there would probably be no Maya left in the area.
If the masses can keep you down, you're not the Ubermensch.
There's a difference between saying "I think copyright is being used unreasonably" and "Copyright law is a great evil in society".
It's also fairly ridiculous to claim that copyright needs to just up and disappear. Aside from its long-held presence in the common law, it's also good logical sense and enshrined in legal codes around the globe.
See, one of the lovely things about copyright law is that the author of the work gets to decide what to do with it. If they feel like their work should be distributed to whomever, whenever, however, they can certainly decide that.
There are other people who do not want that. By obliterating copyright, you remove their rights.
Nobody is forced against their will to charge money for people to view or redistribute their work. The site you quote does not appear to even consider these issues in the most cursory manner.
There is an argument to be made that copyright is too long. On the other hand, there's the opposite argument that copyright should be eternal and instead the definition for derivative works should be loosened slightly.
As a writer myself, I favor copyright. If at any time I wish to allow my works to be distributed freely in their entirety, I can do that. If I wish it to happen on my death, I can write that into my will. But why should you decide what I may or may not do with my writings?
In fact, most current copyright laws contain exceptions to make reasonable derivative copies, and further, basic themes aren't subject to copyright anyway.
However, I cannot in any respect see how copyright law is evil. It may be unenforceable; it may be unreasonable, even. Neither of those equates with evil.
"It is possible to commit no errors and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." -Peak Performance
I'm all for Microsoft products and you only have to look at my posting history to see where I stand on most matters Microsoft. However, I think that giving kids a non-MS alternative is the way to go. I am so pro-Microsoft because I have been using Microsoft products since DOS 3.3 and I understand how they function at the core. I learned some x86 Assembler. I cracked some copy protection and messed around with INT13 and various other system calls to make the computer do funny things. I remember when DOS 5.0 came out it came with a "huge" 300+ page manual that detailed all of the components of the OS and how the worked. The Microsoft of today doesn't offer that level of documentation and the ability to really tinker with the computer to make it work. The Microsoft of today obfuscates things and goes about doing things in a very non-standard way. I don't really support Microsoft because I think they do things the "right" way. I support them because I can make the Microsoft stuff do what I need it to do and that is good enough for me. But for my children, for the children of the world... I'm all for them learning Linux. Linux is to computers today what DOS was to computers in the late 1980s when I was getting into them.
The thing that isn't mentioned in TFA - and it's no small item - is that the OLPC has a completely free/open bootloader. No commercial stuck-in-the-eighties BIOS here. IIRC, WinXP needs a PC BIOS to run on,
Anybody want a peanut?
Really? I suppose he wouldn't be too interested in the Natalie Portman jokes or iPhone banter, but neither most poor people nor most slashdotters are so insular and parochial. The OLPC and the Internet facilitate people talking to people, and is thus an absolute good.
More likely the kid is going to do a Google search on improved irrigation techniques. Or learn something about what crops might be better adapted to the soil. Maybe he will join a forum where he can talk to farmers in the first world about farming techniques. Maybe he can go ahead and find a dealer who will give him more for his crops than he is currently getting. I never ceased to be amazed what real, non-geek people find on the Internet. They find things that actually pertain to what they deal with in real life. I on the other hand have been "online" since 2400 baud, so oddly enough all I find are warez, pr0n and security utilities.
Atlantis rising? My ass. Reich rising, more like.
Hey, I think its someone with a clue.
Supporting World Peace Through Nuclear Pacification
### But why should you decide what I may or may not do with my writings?
Because laws are there for the good of society, not just to please the individual.
### However, I cannot in any respect see how copyright law is evil.
The idea behind copyright is a good one, since it encourages creation of new content, the current implementation however is god awful one and completly unusable in the day and age of the Internet. The only reason why society hasn't collapsed yet is because the copyright laws are hard to enforce. If you would enforce them you would end up with huge parts of society, especially the younger one, having big trouble with the law.
If you want to make him really rich, give him a hand saw with some spare blades.
You forgot to throw in 'ski mask', for the parties. Fun times, man
I think the grammatically obnoxious construct "Um... [noun] much?" was what the OP was likely complaining about, not the meaning of "zealot".
Consider: "Um... Fireplace much?".
Even so, it's hardly zealotry to call for the end of copyright monopolies, highly respected economists and many artists having been doing so on a reasoned basis for ages now. A highly whiny minority still support copyright monopoly law though.
I apologize for the word "funky", as not all features were working. However it was designed for small children, in a good way, to be more intuitive without any prior knowledge. No, there are no lions bears or tigers. That is a western version of "designed for children". but there are small keys and complexity is ignored in favor of simple and intuitive. It does not do much to teach people how to use a computer as many of features that are in all modern operating systems are not there, such as windows and files. It was not designed as a stepping stone to an IT job. It is designed to be a tool for learning, and not surfing the internet and sending email or playing multimedia. It has extreme durability, feature that allow the screen to be read in sunlight, and a very low power consumption. I think XP would be wrong for the third world application, and for the "rich" western user, a modern cellphone may be a better investment, though maybe not as "cool", much as the Prius became a status symbol, I see the OLPC having the same potential. "Look, I have an OLPC, my other one is in Africa". While that would be smug, it would better the cause as a whole, much as the Prius.
Open standards is the only solution to abusive monopolies, and that applies across many industry sectors. The GPL effectively promotes openness, and standardisation is obtained by the demand and market share of any given technology. It's a kind of standards democracy at the most granular level.
It is certainly not teaching them intelligent design!
----
Go canucks, habs, and sens!
This is precisely why the OLPC project is so laughably absurd. Take a $200 device that is fragile (it's ruggedized but still electronics), is an environmental hazard to dispose of, and has a lifespan measured in years...and use it to replace books, which are far more rugged, cheaper to produce, and have a lifespan measured in centuries. There are good reasons to spread information technology, but "should be used to replace books" is not one of them.
OLPC is a rich man's idea of what poor men need. It's like donating an expresso machine to a homeless shelter.
JTF: In your heart, you know we're right.
*YOU* are full of crap. I learned on a Windows machine and I am an excellent computer user. I can switch between Linux/Mac/Windows/Unix easily. How in the world would using a Python UI teach you to question copyright laws?! If you don't want DRM then use VLC media player. I have NEVER HAD A SINGLE PROBLEM with DRM from Windows 3.1 to Windows XP.
Copyright law is a neat law that allows you to reap the benefits of your work.
I don't believe freedom of speech is an admirable goal. Does that answer your question?
"It is possible to commit no errors and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." -Peak Performance
Dear Microsoft,
After reviewing your request for an extra GB of available flash to further develop your monopoly to extend to those folks not fortunate enough to already be trapped within your clutches, the OLPC committee have decided to decline your request and issue a response to you stating that the OLPC committee wished that you kindly fuck off and keep you slimy company away from us.
Kindly, OLPC committee
it is only after a long journey that you know the strength of the horse.
Exactly, and they need "computer skills" not just "Microsoft Skills" I can't tell you how many upper-level tech people I have ran into that have no clue how any OS other then Windows and DOS work, and even then they really only know which programs to install and how to fix common problems, anything beyond the GUI is unknown to them. Most of them hardly know a thing about Linux and OS-X and even when they do it is only from what they have heard from the media or someone else, very few of them are true hackers. Now there are some that I have met that have skill, they can think beyond the "Microsoft Skills" into "computer skills" they know how an OS works and can recommend an OS rather then just "Well XP is fast and Vista is slow but looks nicer" and they can also program enough to know how a computer works at the lower levels. The moment we start teaching "Microsoft Skills" == "Computer Skills" they are forever doomed to a life of slavery to MS and *insert other evil empire that comes after MS falls* and they know nothing else other then MS, and they start thinking that an operating system == Windows, and Word Processing == MS Word and then Internet == Internet Explorer, these are the pitfalls that most Americans have fallen into and why most Americans don't know a thing about computers only about Microsoft and even then, you put them on Office 2007 or Vista, they are immediately puzzled even though the core of the OS/Program is the same in order to make it look "new" MS changed the GUI so radically and they are alienated by it. If the third world knows how to program and use a computer and understand source code, they have hope, otherwise they will be with America forever following the industry leader mindless of any other choice.
There is no "disagree" moderation, and troll, flamebait and overrated are not valid substitutes
Remember the old FSF party line: "Without copyright the GPL would be unenforceable. It would also be unnecessary".
Kids today. Sheesh. Think about it: if copyright doesn't exist, freely copyable binary-only software is competing with freely-copyable source-provided software. My money would be on source-provided software doing better - it has a killer extra feature! the source!. Programmers would be paid to code up new features (less boring wheel reinventing code, too!), computer users would still want and buy newer, faster computers. The people who would lose would be boxed software distributors. Like, er, Microsoft.
So then it seems you agree with the response I gave to the other poster.
In other words, yes, you have missed the big picture. For just a smidgen of a start, think of it as a way for those kids to have a very good selection of cheap school books and other sorts of books, instead of being a "laptop" like you might use one (pron and games), and maybe you'll start to "get it". What's the cost of publishing, printing, binding and shipping dead tree books in, compared to electronically transmitting and storing ebooks? ebooks cost pennies at cost, dead tree books cost dollars. Right there it's a helluva deal. There is no possible way to get books cheaper to kids, you know, that "education" thing?
This just isn't rocket surgery to "get" this, and it isn't the only sort of help these folks might receive. Should we fault the other aid agencies and NGOs for providing what they provide, because it isn't something else? "sorry food and seed guys, you aren't providing water wells, you fail it". "Sorry water well guys, you aren't providing medical care, you fail it" "Sorry medical care guys, you aren't providing dead tree books and shoes, you fail it"
Do you "get it" yet., or do I have to make it even simpler than that?
This constant complaining about a big ebook plus reader because it isn't this "other" thing is just too sucky and hypocritical...and just plain stupid.. for words coming from privileged first world citizens who already enjoy "all of the above". Here's a clue, read the titles to articles and don't click on the ones you "don't approve of" and go back to your important video gaming and MP3 collecting, you know, that stuff you do that goes to help them poor "darky" folks out.
I think the one I see the most (word is a close second) is organizer = outlook
I confess, I don't even use windows, but I had to think a while to come up with another term besides outlook.
Wow.... Just... wow.... So... er... yeah, you're a card carrying member of the Evil Club, alright. Slight irony in you taking advantage of the freedom this site affords in matters of speech, but anyway, good that you spoke up and removed all doubt about you being a fool - one of the real advantages of free speech, eh? (And IMO why the neo-nazi movement is far more powerful in e.g. Germany/France where pro-nazi speech is banned than in America where it is in the open but the neo-nazi movement is a total public laughing stock)
Actually, the Atlantis myth as told by Plato is in fact pretty much a proto-fascist pro-dictatorship kind of thing. Really don't understand some hippie/new-ager fixation on Atlantis, maybe confusion with the "Irish Atlantis" Land-of-Youth (Tir-na-nÓg) and/or Plain-of-Joy (Mag-Mell) mythologies - if they actually read Plato's stuff maybe they'd see.
"16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
...I'm tired of being reasonable. If Microsoft wants a cheap alternative to provide to developing countries tell 'em to better engineer their OS and hardware platform of choice (Classmate). Asking/demanding anything of a non-profit like OLPC is tasteless and tacky. Screw 'em.
Oh, for the days when sig's didn't have to be cute...hey, wait a sec.
"16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
I guess MS is used to having hardware developers and vendors respond to their needs. They've had a very advantageous position with OEM system builders for a long time, not to mention makers of addin cards and external peripherals. I think we only heard about this request because of how silly it is given the OLPC concept. I think in the past this kind of request was either
- unnecessary because hardware people were already developing around Windows, or
- unnecessary because the platforms were not in a space where MS could to operate e.g. supercomputing, or
- welcomed
I agree with whoever posted "hey MS make your own."When the axe came to the forest, the trees said, "Look out - the handle was once one of us."
Choice of masters is not freedom.
Schoolbooks do NOT have a lifespan measured in centuries. USSR or Yugoslavia, anyone?
Choice of masters is not freedom.
While more fragile than a book, yes, what is the value of all the books in the world?
Text is the easiest thing for a device like this to store, access, and display. By having one a child could have every text ever digitized available to them. To me that sounds more valuable than $200.
Also, while rugged, physical books are not perfect in a developing, rural environment. How much space would $200 worth of books take to store? How do you keep them from getting wet and dirty?
>the current implementation however is god awful one and completly unusable in the day and age of the Internet.
You're exaggerating. It needs a tune up here and there, but its working fine.
You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
...in the bank. Just billions. If they really wanted to provide a low cost laptop to poor kids running XP, they could drop some petty cash lunch money and do the whole stack themselves, hardware and software. As it is, emperor gates himself righteously dissed this project a long time ago. He just ranked it. *Twice* in fact, at a developers conference and at davos world economic forum. I think the OLPC folks should tell him and microsoft to go get stuffed.
I tell you what, the planet earth would be a lot better off without exxon, haliburton or (*(&ing damn microsoft. They made their billions already, they are rich as snot, can't they just say enough and push the plate away and get up from the table? We have these reports of an "obesity epidemic" among some populations, but I tell you, we have a bigger problem with "corporate obesity". Some companies have just gotten too large to be of the public good any longer and should be broken up.
Hey Microsoft-this is directed at anyone from there or any shareholder-can you just give it up a little, do you have to always try and hog the entire pie? Have you no shame? Is there no end to your capitalist gluttony? Or will you only be satisfied once it is a complete microsoft planet? Or would you even be satisfied then?
It's weird but this whole deal with MS whining and cajoling to try and weasel into the OLPC deal reminded me of my dogs. I like all of them, but they all have different personalities and traits,but some not very nice. The very largest one, who gets by far the largest bowl of food, and they all get the same thing, will *every single time*, if not stopped, run around and force all the other smaller dogs off their bowls to try and get some of their food, even when her bowl is still quite full.
Now, this isn't even tolerable for animals (somewhat understandable as a survival trait, but enough's enough for peace and quiet in the yard "civilization"), so why we as thinking humans put up with that from so called responsible corporations is beyond me. Microsoft, can you please just stop being so greedy when it comes to the computer market place, and just leave this little project alone without thrusting your over fed snout into it?
You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
"16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
Since infinite opportunities exist to be arrogant ...
the answer is, no
Agreed.
If Microsoft cant invest the time to make a streamlined version of Windows XP for the XO machine then they never really wanted in the market in the first place. I mean this *IS* a company that craps out billion dollar bills like nobody's business. This is a case of Microsoft should bend to OLPC's desires rather than the other way around.
Also I agree on those ground rules. At least Windows XP for the XO should cost nothing and have any WGA and DRM crap yanked out of it. Otherwise theres no point in putting it on there.
09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0
+2 Troll is Slashdot's way of saying groupthink is confused
Oh yeah, and MS pays for the newly designed/engineered Sand and Water resistant SD card slot.
On second thought, how about F-off, yeah that seems appropriate.
OSGGFG - Open Source Gamers Guide to Free Games
Yes they need these things, more than a computer, but 1) this is not who the computers are likely to go to and 2) it's certainly not from lack of worldwide resources that people are suffering like this, nor from lack of goodwill of your average joe, rather it's largely a problem of politics, corruption, and the realities of distribution combined with these other factors. The XO laptops will go where they are wanted and hopefully where they are needed. I hardly think this is detracting from other humanitarian efforts in any way.
Stephan Kinsella's expressed arguments in this essay are pretty close to my views (though he writes far more eloquently). I'm not going to comment further on the matter in this thread; I suggest you just check that essay out. What copyright is supposed to prevent, and justly so [sic], is unauthorized copying for a reasonable amount of time, so that the author can profit from their work "Their work" is the physical copies they created, and I don't mind them profitting from the sale of them, charging for the service of creation of them, etc. I do not grant any reality to "their work" in the abstract, even if muddle-brained american lawyers do. (Well, that's a simplification too. There are tantalising hints from the developing field quantum computation that quantum information itself has some sort of physical reality - but if anything quantum information is even less compatible with mere human notions of ownership than classical information and/or the approximations we consider macroscopic physical objects)
As far as I'm concerned, physical property law over the physical substrates of "information" is pretty much all that's necessary for just dealings with [classical] information - if I wanted to obtain undisclosed and properly protected secret information from you, I'd have to violate your physical property rights to obtain it. If authors release their initial copy for too low a price, well, that was their choice and their problem. It was their choice to sink their costs into the creation of the work, and I don't think it's fair for others to bear it. The world doesn't owe me a living doing what I want to do, nor them doing what they might want to do.
Choice of masters is not freedom.
Without copyright law, the power of the GPL would be zilch, zippo, nada. The entire evolution of the GNU operating system environment would probably not exist, and you'd be all using pirated versions of Windows XP (or probably ME, since MSFT would probably not have invested anything like the money and resources they have into their OS's.
FreeBSD, OpenBSD and NetBSD laugh at your scaremongering.
I wouldn't even necessarily call the OLPC more fragile than books. It's just differently fragile/tough. More vulnerable to some things, less to others.
How do you keep them from getting wet and dirty?
Very good point. In a humid environment, I could see books rotting before the OLPC would fail.
Figure a textbook on the cheap is 5 bucks. This is 1/10 to 1/20th of what many class textbooks in the USA cost. It'd also be very close to physical cost, after all, we're talking about large books here, frequently color.
Then the break even point is 40 books(assuming the books, in electronic format at least, are free). It would have been 20 if they'd managed to meet their original cost goal. Stick some extras in there like an encyclopedia. There's many options.
For a 'normal' course load, I'd figure on 5 books a semester. Stuff like Math, Reading, Writing, History, Geography. While you could consider Reading/Writing one subject, you can also tack on a foreign language, speech, science, etc...
So it'd take 8 semesters or 4 years to pay itself off - if all it did was replace textbooks. Which it doesn't - it can also be used for test taking, quizzes, notes, additional reference materials, helping the parents apply for an online loan, etc... I'm sure somebody will produce educational games for it eventually - sure, it might have minimal specs for today, but it's still an order of magnitude more powerful than the machine I played Oregon trail on back when I was in school.
Perhaps the most important thing it could do is help the next generation become comfortable with technology, and resist superstition. We are talking about some very poor areas here.
I don't read AC A human right
Remember the old FSF party line: "Without copyright the GPL would be unenforceable. It would also be unnecessary".
Of course it would be necessary, assuming you were attempting to do what the GPL does.
Kids today. Sheesh. Think about it: if copyright doesn't exist, freely copyable binary-only software is competing with freely-copyable source-provided software. My money would be on source-provided software doing better - it has a killer extra feature! the source!. Programmers would be paid to code up new features (less boring wheel reinventing code, too!), computer users would still want and buy newer, faster computers. The people who would lose would be boxed software distributors. Like, er, Microsoft.
Your logic is broken. Binary-only software today dominates the industry, despite its - relative to open source software - high cost. Eliminating copyright will make binary-only software free (ie: make it price-competitive with open source software). Most people have zero interest in the source code today. What makes you think they would if copyright didn't exist ?
This is before getting into how eliminating copyright would make the GPL unenforceable, and thus *substantially* change the economic arguments for commercial investment in GPLed source code.
Eliminating copyright would hurt closed-source software suppliers, since they would generally be only able to derive income from support contracts and the like. However, it would hurt the OSS world a *lot* more, by defanging the GPL and creating significant disincentives for corporate investment in OSS.
So the content distributors should have all the rights while the customer who is actually paying for that content should have no rights, huh? Why the hell should they have all the rights while the person whose money they are taking has no rights?
I dream of a better world... one in which chickens can cross roads without their motives being questioned.
I thought OLPC was not about a "laptop" but about an educational tool?
.NET)
It is not about Linux, it is about the software you can use with it and the way it is setup to work. If you put a blank copy of Windows on it, the kids will be fscked over with a green, useless piece of crap.
* will they include python? (if I know MS, if they do, it will be some stripped down version of Visual Basic
* will they include other stuff in OLPC?
or just the useless OS?
3rd world get screwed over once more. As usual, by their own corruption and lack of forthright of their own so called leaders, as well as by the rich nations.
The OLPC with its native mesh networking and internet connectivity will put libraries in the hands of many students for less than it would cost to buy, ship, and store the hardcopy books they would otherwise need for a good K-12 education. Looked at only as a method of distributing traditional written materials, the OLPC is a fantastically good idea.
Additionally, OLPC provides any high school student with access to the expanding world of OpenCourseWare (OCW). The complete curricular materials for about 1,800 MIT undergraduate courses are now available as OCW. Carnegie-Mellon, John Hopkins, and an increasing number of other post high school facilities are adding to the OCW libraries, as well.
The OLPC is not only ruggedized, it has been designed so that field maintenance can be done by persons with no special training or tools. Some will break, obviously. They can be cannabilized to keep others functioning.
The world is changing. Try to keep up.
The OLPC also has a custom, ultra-intuitive interface with a high-contrast black-and-white mode for direct sunlight. Would Microsoft add this type of feature to the OLPC version of XP? I doubt it.
There are already programs that try to supply third world countries with food, medicine, drinking water, infrastructure, etc. Nothing is stopping anybody from continuing to support those efforts. OLPC is taking a new, unexplored direction. It may work out it may not, we have yet to see. I for one see a lot of potential with the project and have high hopes in it working out. The existing strategy for helping poor countries has been unchanged for a long time and the overall problem doesn't seem to be getting better from a global standpoint, so a new approach to the problem should be welcome.
I don't see any logic in taking an extremest point of view of identifying the worst problems and suggesting that doing anything other than dealing with those problems head-on is a waste of time. It's not how mankind has advanced to where we are now. Progress can be made along multiple paths at the same time, and OLPC isn't slowing down any of the other existing support systems.
Why?
When you answer that question, you'll begin to see just how disruptive a technology the OLPC is, and why it scares the shit out of Microsoft.
Except you can't, not to the extent you can with the OLPC.
Specifically: There's a hotkey to get the source of any running program. If you screw it up, you can restore the original. Can you imagine a better platform to learn to program on?
"But", you cry, "They won't get to learn MS Visual Buzzword! They won't learn the wonders of Word and Excel!" This is true, and were they in, say, a US high school, only a few years away from joining the US Corporate Workforce, you might be right -- although there are still plenty of places they could go.
But consider: Word is for printing, and where will they get a printer? Excel is most often used for managing money, and what do they have to manage? And by the time they have that much, chances are, one of their friends will have written a spreadsheet -- a small, light spreadsheet that'll run like greased lightning on any OLPC. Or they'll be connected to the Internet, and to better, Web-based tools.
The people and businesses they will be dealing with will be local, and they will be whatever wins the give-computers-to-3rd-world-kids war. If that's OLPC, it'll be Linux, with the OLPC software (which kicks ass).
That's a given. In fact, MS already has us beat there -- they are giving away Classmate PCs wholesale. (Someone still has to pay for the OLPC.)
I assume the reason they are asking is because they don't want to do it themselves.
Ok, here's a question: Who buys the copy of Windows when the kids grow up and get their first real computer? The first hit's free...
More like, they'd demand more in the hope that OLPC will take any cash it can get...
And this hurts OLPC more than just about anything, short of not giving away the computers at all. If some of them run Windows, and some run Linux, will they talk to each other? Will a kid be able to, for instance, share a document with his friend as easily and transparently? Or just see his friend's computer by where it is? Will the Mesh network work?
Does OLPC really need even more fucking roadblocks as they try to solve these issues -- that wouldn't be an issue if Microsoft would do the right thing?
Specifically: The OLPC is not in any way going to look like any "real" computer, and if it does, it won't be able to do its job nearly as well as what's done now. Microsoft attempting to butt in at the last second is not motivated by generosity -- I really seriously doubt there's anything Windows would teach them that this Linux wouldn't that is of any real use to them. No, this is motivated by greed and fear -- the fear that these kids will grow up without Microsoft, or any proprietary software, and Windows will suddenly no longer be a majority; and greed, knowing that if these kids grow up on Windows, it's more money for them in the long run.
Because if Microsoft really just wanted to help, Bill Gates would pull some money out of his Foundation -- or out of his ass -- and just give it to the OLPC project. If they wanted to influence the direction of it, rather than trying to butt in at the last second, they'd have contributed money and development over the years leading up to this.
Mods, there is actually a -1 Disagree. It's called "Overrated".
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
Microsoft should get lost. Now.
There is absolutely no reason why they should be meddling in the OLPC Project.
They're just afraid that more people will find out how good Linux is and stop using the craphouse that is Windows
The Microsoft of today doesn't offer that level of documentation and the ability to really tinker with the computer to make it work.
Yes they do, it is called the Platform SDK and Microsoft SDK v6.0. It is more like a 30,000 page manual now.
Furthermore, you can still limit redistribution of your work. When you distribute it, require that the recipients sign an appropriate contract. Nobody is forced against their will to charge money for people to view or redistribute their work. No, but they are forced to copyright their work (it's automatic). This means that unless the author explicitly says otherwise, nobody can redistribute their work at all (except when this would constitute fair use) until 70 years after their death. Since many publications are anonymous or pseudonymous, obtaining a redistribution license is often unduly difficult. In cases like this, copyright inhibits cultural development, and doesn't give anyone anything in return.
In addition, trivial and incidental use of a work is still infringement, and often isn't covered by fair use (because it's not transformative/criticism/parody/research/teaching). This turns audio and video projects into a copyright minefield. Your documentary catches a single frame of The Simpsons on some random TV in the background? Copyright violation. $15,000 per copy you made, or maybe (if we're feeling nice) we'll just enjoin you from distributing your documentary. Your song's melody sounds vaguely like some other song? Violation. Heck, if you tell to a co-worker a joke that some guy cracked on the subway, that's also a violation. Even if you attribute it. There is an argument to be made that copyright is too long. On the other hand, there's the opposite argument that copyright should be eternal and instead the definition for derivative works should be loosened slightly. Those arguments, at least the ones I've heard, are garbage. They revolve around the idea that "intellectual property" is the same as physical property, in that copying it is the same as stealing. In this case, it shouldn't expire: physical property rights sure don't. But then they assert that intellectual property is different from physical property, in that you can sell it to me and I still won't own it. (Or rather that when you say you're "selling" it, you mean something which is totally different from the sale of physical property.)
Or perhaps you had a different argument in mind. In which case, please elaborate. [W]hy should you decide what I may or may not do with my writings? Why should you be able to restrict the freedom of those who purchase your writings, and who have not signed any sort of contract with you? However, I cannot in any respect see how copyright law is evil. It may be unenforceable; it may be unreasonable, even. Neither of those equates with evil. There's a $15,000 maximum fine for humming a tune as you walk down the street. Do this repeatedly, and you could be thrown in jail. I can see how that would qualify as evil, even though it's never enforced.
I hereby place the above post in the public domain.
"...books, which ... have a lifespan measured in centuries."
Exactly, I remember taking AP chemistry in 12th grade and the book we used must have been at least 150 years old. I think the Iliad and the Odyssey were the originals penned by the author. Even back in the 80's, we were lucky to have that special paper that after you dropped it in the rain and snow a few times you could just wipe it off and put it in the Book Cleaner for the kid to use the next year, or the next century!
*mod up* I too hate it when people speak about DRM on Windows being all the lame it is yet there are *TONS* of other 3rd party programs out there that work quite nice without the DRM. The pool is big enough for everyone.
Actually there just a story on the 'Net about Classmate demolishing OLPC.
Wallstreet Journal-
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119586754115002717.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
But I thought the pact *cough* partnership with Novell would bring Linux and Microsoft closer together?
So why isn't Microsoft simply porting applications to OLPC?
Questions, questions:
Why didn't Corel and Microsoft bring Linux to the desktop? Oh, that's right, Corel became Xandros, and then:
"Microsoft Gives Xandros Users Patent Protection"
Weee:
"WashingtonPost: Microsoft Faces New Antitrust Probe Over Corel Deal"
Where did that last one go, nowhere? When is the madness going to end?
It takes real world skills to move from a 3rd world to a 2nd world economy.
:)
The 2nd world no longer exists.
The 1st world was the Western aligned countries (NATO and friends), the 2nd world was the Soviet Bloc, and the 3rd world was everyone else. They are Cold War era phrases. 3rd world never specifically meant "undeveloped", and 2nd world doesn't mean "semi-developed".
Taken literally, you said "It takes real world skills to move from a 3rd world to [revive a] Communist Command economy"
Now get off my lawn, ya damn kid!
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- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
I hate responding to cowards but what the hell. What's funny is that the OPLC runs around $180. Even with Academic MS software for the OS and Office installed one will end up paying $180 on software alone. It's not a matter of MS is being shut out. They shut themselves out. Even if they were to donate software, donations wouldn't meet demand and sooner or later they would demand the price be raised. It really is about the kids, well in a realistic economic sense.
people talking to people, and is thus an absolute good
Goatse.
Conservapedia.
AOL.
Myspace.
Chuckle. Couldn't resist.
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- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
I find it rather arrogant for Microsoft to turn up at the last minute and insist that Windows XP run on the OLPC XO laptop. The FOSS community have spent thousands of hours getting the XO to the point it is without a dime from Microsoft. If Microsoft wants an OLPC go make your own and use your huge non existent community of helpers to improve the non existent source code.
Dear Microsoft;
Over the years, we've disagreed on many things, not the least of which is whether you should morally be able to enter a field late and badly, and still take over.
Now I hear that you want to do the same with the OLPC project, and Microsoft, I have a suggestion for you.
Fuck off.
Seriously. I'm sick of you, I'm sick of your attitude, I'm sick of your superiority complex. If the universe suddenly switched directions and you actually provided the best solution in a timely manner, I STILL wouldn't choose it.
So really, Microsoft. Fuck off. Nobody wants you hanging around anymore.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
You are now legally required to report that or face up to a $300,000 fine.
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- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
One additional requirement, it must be as open and free (as in speech) as the Linux software, you may have heard it, but Apple offered their OS for it for free, but got rejected due to the open and free demands.
Ah, so I go and look at the licenses for FreeBSD, OpenBSD and NetBSD, which all seem to come with strings attached, no matter how loose. Note that each of these licenses are based on the premise that copyright law is valid and enforceable.
OLPC should set down the ground rules for MS:
It would never work. Microsoft's standard tactic is to break any and all agreements, whenever it best suits them. If you then complain, you're free to sue them, which they will drag out as long as possible, knowing that they have more money for lawyers and politicians than you'll ever have.
Only a fool would expect known criminals to keep their word.
It seems like we're not going to agree on this fundamental point, though.
"16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
And yes, they would have to create much of the code base from scratch, as there is no incentive for those putting up the money to release their know-how into the wild. Of course the individual programmers might be allowed to take the code they create with them, but still, the result will only be as good as the code-base that a programmer brings along. And what incentive is there for a programmer to share his code-base in the wild? Not much, since his personal know-how and code-base is what makes him competitively employable, which he has to be to put food on the table.
Unfortunately then came the evil monsters that called themselves "lobbyists", and by throwing lots of money at the people in power bought up all the laws. Now your great great grandchildren will be dead long before a copyright runs out again. And of course THEIR great great grandchildren will be dead before Mickey Mouse ever ends up in public domain.
I apologize in advance if it came off as snotty instead of humorous. I was going for a "Mr. Robinson's neighborhood" feel.
And on a sadder note, I think copyright is a perfect example of how greed and power unchecked can be destructive. Copyright worked just fine for nearly 200 years, and then came that damned Mickey Mouse. Copyrights should be set at a flat 20 years, somewhere between 5-10 years if you are going to have them on software. The problems with copyright now is they have become a weapon to be used against your enemies and are a blockage to innovation, instead of an encouragement which was the whole point of the thing.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
The term is not well defined but all the way back in 1974 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Worlds_Theory) the idea of 2nd world as an intermeadeate stage between 1st and 3rd world showed up. PS: Comunisim died so the idea of the 2nd world having any other meaning is sort of a moot point.
OLPC is a device for communication and creativity.
With its word processor, you can learn to write.
With its drawing package and its camera, you can learn to create art.
With its eBook reader you can learn from literature and textbooks.
With its email and chat programs, you can share your work, ask questions of remote peers or teachers.
OLPC can help people learn geography, maths, science, history, wind generator maintenance, sustainable agriculture, etc. Any "computer skills" picked up along the way are purely a side benefit.
This is one reason non-FOSS software has no place in it. It would turn a communications and creativity exercise into just another way of building a market.
I admit that open source software is protected by copyright law, however I believe that those "strings attached" you speak of are largely recognized as a good thing by the open source community. Maybe I'm just a naive bastard, but I believe that open source developers would continue to release their code, not because they're required to, but because it's a good development model. Using copyright to keep software open was a defense mechanism to companies choosing to use copyright to keep software closed. Am I wrong?
Books cheaper? Apparently you've never had to buy books for college courses...
My life's goal is to get a score of +3!
Oh, well, when you put it in terms of an ad hominem, then of course I must agree.
JTF: In your heart, you know we're right.
Perhaps GP was not explicit enough about the poverty that some parts of the third world experience.......
/..
;-)
;-)
Didn't see that story, but don't doubt it.
And they hope to someday - if they are lucky - become the guy who owns the sick ox, because he is the richest person for miles around.
That's what he's talking about though.
Changing their definition of hope.
I would hope *not* to ever be where they're hoping to get to. I presume that's a big enough boat to fit all of
Obviously, magical fairies aren't going to spontaneously generate out of ox poop and parasites once the magical wind up boxes arrive, or at least I didn't see that story either and do doubt that one
Now, if the kids are living on a dollar a day or less, say...25% of that or a quarter, then that $200 would feed them for 800 days or
3-4 years.
So how old were the kids following the ox?
I presume there were a few kids sneaking around the feeding troughs grabbing the grain firsthand. Maybe even some getting paid to plow, tend and harvest the fields the grain came from. Maybe a few fat cats and some wealthy(ish) merchants and tradesman running around the country (whichever one).
Maybe even a few of those people made it past 4
So having computers available makes the availability of learning materials much easier, it provides a large potential from local interaction to global as well as the potential (down the road a bit, these things take time) to allow a very few of the most driven to develop their own applications/websites/consulting firms/ whatever.
So, while I personally think those goals would be much better realized with the machines running that Swedish Hippy OS, I'm going to take a huge stand against the groupthink here and say that I'd hope to use Windows before hoping to eat ox poop.
It takes real world skills to move from a 3rd world to a 2nd world economy.
Indeed it does. First you must adopt Soviet style Communism, and then time travel.
Pedantry rules!
good logical sense
Copyright law originated for the sole purpose of government management and censorship of that pesky newfangled printing press invention. If not for that quirk of history origin and inheriting the descendant of that system, it is FAR from obvious that copyright inherently makes any "good logical sense" at all.
If I'm sitting alone in my cave and I have a chunk of wood, it makes obvious good logical sense that I have every right and freedom to stick my finger into some black ash and finger-scribble whatever scribbles I want on my chunk of wood.
It is far from obvious good logical sense that you have some right to come into my cave and steal all of my stuff on the sole basis and sole rationale that the stuff I freely scribbled on my chunk of wood just happened to be the same as the stuff I saw you scribble on your chunk of wood.
It makes obvious good rational sense that I have the basic freedom to write whatever I want on my paper.
It if far from obvious good rational sense that you should have any particular right to sue me in court and take my money, on the sole basis and sole rationale that what I decided to write on my paper just so happens to be the same as something I saw you write on your paper.
one of the lovely things about copyright law is that the author of the work gets to decide what to do with it
That is true with or without copyright law.
What you want is the right to control what other people do with their property, on the sole basis that you object to what they chose to write on their property.
By obliterating copyright, you remove their rights.
Despite what you might think from what I wrote above, my particular position is not that copyright needs to be obliterated, my position is that we need to elimiante some recent abominable changes to copyright law such as the DMCA.
That said, even if we were to "obliterate copyright" your characterization of "removing their rights" is wrong.
According to the US Constitution (and apologies to the rest of the world but I am going to explicitly discuss my national legal basis of copyright here), the default initial state is that everyone has the liberty to write whatever they like, even if what they write happens to be the same as something they see or remember that someone else happened to write. The initial default state is that the general public has the liberty and all the rights to copy anything they like. From this point, the Constution authorizes Congress, if they feel like it, to TEMPORARILY seize the right to copy a particular work from the public and to LOAN those collected rights exclusively to the author, and Congress may only do so for the sole purpose of promoting progress for the public benefit. And when that loan expires, those copying rights revert back to the public where they originated and where they inherently belong.
The public is collectively VOLUNTARILY choosing to loan their copying rights exclusively to the author, via Congress, and the public voluntarily chooses to do so not because the author has any inherent right to it, and not for the authors benefit. The public chooses to do so because they consider it to be in THEIR OWN BENEFIT to do so, they choose to do so in the hope that a temporary loan of that exclusive copyright to the creator will encourage more creators to contribute more works to the public domain.
The US Supreme Court has quite explicitly ruled that authors have absolutely no inherent right to an exclusive copyright. The Supreme Court has explicitly ruled that copyright does not exist for the benefit of the author and that congress is PROHIBITED from creating any copyright for the purpose of benefiting the author, that the sole permissible purpose of creating copyright is for the public benefit by encouraging more authors to create and contribute more created works to the public domain.
So if we were to "obliterate" copyright, it would merely be the public collectively deciding tha
- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
See, that's one of the benefits of the OLPC laptop: it's sturdy enough to be used as a bludgeoning weapon if need be...
Books in a humid environment have a reduced lifespan.
Do not compare old manuscripts (handwritten on leather) to recent books. Also, do not compare the longevity of 17th century paper-printed books (kept in controlled temperature, humidity and lack of oxygen) to current books. And once more, do not compare the longevity of the 50 years old books you have in your house to books exposed to extreme heat, humidity and maybe from time to time a little flood.
I look on the internet nowdays if I need to look up some information. The last time I picked up a physical Encyclopedia has been many years ago.
Also to note, schoolbooks used over a period of several years by 5th graders do not last so long.
I agree with the whole expresso machine metaphor however OLPC is a rich man's idea of what poor men need. It's like donating an expresso machine to a homeless shelter.
Sigh. I shouldn't reply, but I think you may have misrepresented my position there: even entertaining your "deserve to be compensated" idea, that certainly does not lead inevitably/uniquely to copyright monopoly laws in particular - a very wide range of taxation, prize and grant schemes could apply (and are currently seen out in the real world, even) without restriction on copying, and that's apart from the obvious enough point that, hey, the work of writing a book can be the chargeable service,people can be paid for that directly, seeing as that's where the "work" lies anyway: Patronage/commissioned artistic production has worked and works today, producing many great artworks -and remember, the internet makes micropayments for funding by large groups quite feasible. Yes, some such efforts fail (e.g. Stephen King's last attempt IIRC) and some succeed - but that is right and proper and expected in a functioning market.
You're right that we're unlikely to agree, of course, but to say that it's "because" we disagree on whether people "deserve to be compensated" is wrong - I'd say whether or not people "deserve to be compensated", they don't deserve a copyright monopoly in particular.
You might benefit from exposure to some Austrian School literature.
Choice of masters is not freedom.
to have confused OLPC with "One License per child".
OLPC is, was, and always will be simply a project to force people to use a really crappy version of Teh Lunix
You are, were, and always will be simply a tool to force people to use a really crappy version of Yer Momb ( Which I like to refer to as "Yer Dahd" ).
Personally, for $12 a month I could find something better to do with my life than Pimp Pop's Pooper, but there's something to be said for loving what you do so good day to you, Noble Sir.
Ah, so I go and look at the licenses for FreeBSD, OpenBSD and NetBSD, which all seem to come with strings attached, no matter how loose. Note that each of these licenses are based on the premise that copyright law is valid and enforceable.
The elimination of copyright would have essentially zero impact on how the BSDL works, and its goals.
However, for the GPL, the elimination of copyright would completely circumvent how the GPL works and render it incapable of supporting its objectives.
There is a significant, qualitative difference between how copyright impacts the BSDL and the GPL, which is the point. GP was suggesting that without copyright - and hence without the GPL - something like "GNU/Linux" would have been impossible. I pointed out that the effect of no copyright on the BSDL would be negligible and as such would have had little impact on the development of BSDL licenses OSes like FreeBSD, NetBSD and OpenBSD.
The world is changing. Try to keep up.
Oh, well, when you put it in terms of an ad hominem, then of course I must agree.
Dude, just trying to help out and all, but if you don't agree now you look kind of slow.
Actually, I expect they would support the black and white mode. Its just another video driver. What they want is to get DRM onto the machine and for kids to learn the "Microsoft" way, so that when they get jobs they will think they need office etc. To do this they will produce a base OS that does drive the hardware well and available very cheaply in third world countries.
They can be cannabilized ...
Am I the only one to find that expression mildly amusing since these are targeting 3rd world national educational efforts? "What's that? Nigerians are cannibalizing?!"
My life's goal is to get a score of +3!
Bwahahahaha!!!six!!!
My new goal, and that of my legions of sock puppets, is to keep you down.
Bwahaha! Chortle,
Will it be used to replace books? I thought that lots of poor people in developing countries didn't even have books. We can't "replace" books that they don't have. The printing press was invented about six hundred years ago, but we still don't manage to supply enough books to everybody in the world. At least this project aims to give the poor kids something that they can read information from. It gives them a small computer, which if used properly, should give them a much better education than they are getting now, since now they have just about nothing.
If you think books would be better than computers for poor kids in poor countries to use, then why not start the One Book Per Child Project? Or hey, give them ten books each, since one book won't be all that useful. The Ten Books Per Child Project should nicely complement this laptop project.
There are other people who do not want that. By obliterating copyright, you remove their rights. I don't believe authors should be given the right to dictate what other people do with copies of something the author originally created. Such a "right" is essentially sticking one's nose into other people's business. Corporate efforts to enforce and extend such "rights" screw up society. The fact that so many people accept the copyright myth means humanity took a wrong turn somewhere.
Software patents delenda est.
no
Okay, good idea. Let's give them a laptop and some medicine, drinking water, and food.
I get your point, but according to Richard Stallman, the GPL exists only because copyright exists. In Stallman's eyes, the best situation would be one where there was no copyright. The GPL is basically just making the best of the situation.
Last I checked the OLPC did include one SD/MMC slot and USB ports. All capable of extra storage. Am I wrong? Check the OLPC specifications. Whoever wrote the article must have missed this.
Expresso = 1.95M hits, top hits for computer programs.
Please, try to remember. It won't kill you to not sound like a fool every time you say the word, will it?
Aside from what? The presence of copyright ideas in common law began, depending on definition, at best in the second half of the 17th century with Charles II's royal prerogative. Compare that to the bulk of civil law stemming mostly from the centuries older Roman Corpus Iuris Civilis on which many legal codes are built. (At least in judicial systems which don't rely on funny traditions like, say, case law.)
Yes, international treaties like the Bern Convention in the 19th century saw to that. Which doesn't necessarily make it a logical idea, it just means that at some point in time a number of individuals thought it could be of benefit to someone. To who exactly is open to debate.
Yea, lovely. Let's go back to the roots. Imagine a group of cavemen. If one of them goes "Ugh" it is certainly the right of the others to go "Ugh" too if they think that "Ugh" is a pretty neat idea, no? If one of them carves something on a bark and declares it to represent his idea of "Ugh", and others think this to be interesting as well and start carving barks with "Ugh" (or even derivative stuff based on it) and maybe even spread those to other cavemen - would you say the caveman who originally came up with the "Ugh" idea has a right to stop them? If he went like "yo guys, if anyone's going to spread the word about 'Ugh' it's me or people I ask to do it" and they didn't listen to him, would you say it's ok for him to hit them over the head with a heavy rock repeatedly or would you rather ask him why he released his idea about "Ugh" into the world in the first place?
This points us to the question: is copyright a natural right? I think most people will agree that it's not. Does that make it wrong? Not necessarily. But it's obvious that it is much harder to agree on the justification of unnatural rights than on the justification of natural rights, like the right to live.
So, to come back to your statement: yes this is the way it works now. It is not necessarily the only way. You could just as well argue that people who want to control the use of their ideas should just keep them in their heads. By the way, you will find that most people don't want to control their ideas that badly.
Uh-huh. By taking away a right from everyone you also remove it from a subset of people. Thanks, Captain Obvious.
It might be a bit less of a waste of time to consider that copyright only exists because, presumably, there once was a majority for it which allowed this legal construst to be created and installed throughout the world. But there may also come a time when there's a majority to remove it, like it or not.
Because you don't keep them in your drawer. You want them to be distributed. Why should you decide what I do with my copy of your writings or how I get one? If you don't want me to get one you shouldn't have released it.
Don't forget "unnatural". Anyway, when it comes down to nitpicking you're right. It's not evil. That doesn't mean that it's completely unthinkable to relate to how grandparent feels about copyright, but, no, it's not evil. Good thing we sorted that out.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119586754115002717.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
"books, which are far more rugged, cheaper to produce, and have a lifespan measured in centuries."
School textbooks last what? 4-5 years?
Also, it doesn't take many $30 textbooks before they become more expensive than the laptop
Fine irony. Woud you rather those kids learn school stuff and a bit of python on the side, or a 30 000 page manual for a SDK that will be obsolete in two years?
Something bad is coming when people are suddenly anxious to tell the truth.
As you may or may not be aware, Nicholas Negroponte used to work in African schools. What he says struck him the most is exactly the fact that poor kids were so much interested in technology.
Giving them these laptops is giving them access to millions of libraries, teachers, friends. Yes, the idea of the project is not to give shelter to homeless, but the idea is to give enough education so they can build it themselves (in metaphorical sense).
May Peace Prevail On Earth
Poor people don't own crops. And 3rd world doctors can pay for a normal computer.
With a machine like this, a qualified teacher can write his/her own textbooks.
With a machine like this and a qualified teacher with a certain form of ambition, the kids can write their own textbooks.
Learning? How much did I learn from those expensive (tax-payed) textbooks I had in elementary? How often did I crack them? Why did I prefer the family Encyclopedia set?
How much more would I have learned had I had a machine like this to take notes on?
No book does.. paper degrades, grease from fingers etc. will destroy it fast. Unless you keep it in a dry air conditioned environment and never read it you'll be lucky if it lasts 20 years.
Still a hell of a lot longer than the average PC though.
"So, like, let's upgrade the hardware of the cheapest laptop ever in order to make it altogether more expensive and profitable for us, the kids can wait.
I mean,like, what reasonably good OS can fit on only 1GB ?
And, yes, this poor kids out there should share our values on, like, you know, intellectual property, copyright, and of course, open source. Because open source is, like, you know, evil, right ?"
Er.. eh... No ?
Let's all slap Utzschneider thrice and hand it to his mama.
The very fact that MS want to get their oar in, says it all. They are "trying" to get XP working? Well perhaps if it wasn't so frigging bloated, it would work off the bat, much like...now what's that other O/S that can still be squeezed on to a single floppy image and still be usable?
My biggest fear if they lock these countries into Windows, for free, MS are not monsters after all, but then the virus' come and other not so wonderful companies come along and say well for a "reduced" rate we will "give" you some security software for all the kiddies laptops. Oh don't worry it won't be that expensive, maybe the odd diamond mine or first born of every family to work in that new sweat-shop....sorry booming manufacturing installtion on the east side...
When it comes down to it the 3rd world is the most scary techno market going. Look at how the tech market in places like India has grown over the last 25 years, the talent that they bring to us in the West. The third world people have a real drive and determination to make it out of the poverty traps. If that massive potential market, far bigger than the fat 1st world, grow up on an alternative to Windows, what will happen when they finally break out and come to the 1st world countries? They will be spreading the gospel of a different tech, it will most likley not be one that involves locked down software that cannot be adapted. They will come with ideas for open source that we never dreamed of. When it comes down to it, having to make do is an incredible motiviator to get the best out of what little you have.
Windows guys please stop pissing on everyone and the Linux guys stop pissing in the wind, hoping to hit Windows guys!
Yes, books are far more robust than a notebook.
But mind you that most school books get revisions and updates every 2 years, or so. So they must be replaced anyways with newer versions, also, sometimes the school decides to change the books they're using altogether. With the OLPC these updates would be easier, and cheaper.
Another advantage is that children will be able to gain access to a larger variety of texts and books.
So, while I agree that books last longer, you must admit that the OLPC offers much more than a regular book.
---- You know how some doctors have the Messiah complex - they need to save the world? You've got the "Rubik's" complex
Politics is involved because money is involved. 'Nuff said
I want to shoot the messenger!
Agarax, I respect your stance, but aren't people really using apps, not the OS? (And I don't mean web apps now, that's a different kettle of fish.) And if Office is arguably the most important app suite to learn -- I mean for the non-dev workforce -- doesn't OpenOffice on Linux give you quite sufficient skills for MS Office (which they'll surely bump into someday)?
:-)
In other words, why do these kids need to learn *Windows* specifcally, in itself? Asking honestly
Another but related matter: XP would give them a chance to learn the ins and outs, until next Windows comes out. The OLPC OS gives them a chance to learn the ins and outs, then hack it (UI Python script or OS C code) to their hearts content, thereby giving them general purpose programmer skills instead of a superficial snapshot of a moving target.
I don't want to start a holy war here, but what is the deal with you Sugar fanatics? I've been sitting here at my freelance gig in front of an OLPC (Green, with ear-like WiFi antennas) for about 20 minutes now while it attempts to copy a 17 Meg file from one folder on the hard drive to another folder. 20 minutes. At home, on my OLPC running XP, which by all standards should be a lot slower than this Sugar OS, the same operation would take about 2 minutes. If that. In addition, during this file transfer, Opera will not work. And everything else has ground to a halt. Even JotPad is straining to keep up as I type this. I won't bore you with the laundry list of other problems that I've encountered while working on various OLPCs, but suffice it to say there have been many, not the least of which is I've never seen an OLPC that has run faster on Sugar than on XP, despite the Sugar OS being designed for the hardware. My Vista with Aero enabled runs faster than this 500 mhz machine at times. From a productivity standpoint, I don't get how people can claim that Sugar is a superior OS. Linux addicts, flame me if you'd like, but I'd rather hear some intelligent reasons why anyone would choose to use Sugar over other faster, cheaper, more stable operating systems.
The seekers do no need truth, the seekers do find truth and the finding do be painful
If they gave IE away for free, I could legally download it and install it under Wine. But I can't legally do that.
Perhaps I am missing something - perhaps the distinction is between "technically able" and "legally permitted" - but this is something I can easily do. Everytime I've installed MS Office using CrossOver, the Office installation has prompted me to install IE, since it is a necessary component of Office. So it is certainly technically possible.
As to the legality, IANAL of course, but my understanding is that the MS Office license does not and cannot require a Windows license (that would illegally tied selling, no?), and that since Office requires IE, IE itself cannot require a Windows license.
You could argue that I've needed to give $$$ to MS to get IE, and you'd be right: I needed to spend those $$$ to get the entry point that would give me IE. But I think that's a quibble rather than a real counter-argument. MS is carefully controlling the technical means by which one obtains this particular piece of free software. They could just as easily make it easier for you to get it. That they don't is their choice. It's their software, they're free to distribute it as they see fit (within the law of course :->).
Of course, all of this is mere speculation and conjecture based on my interpretation of my experience. I'd love to read a reply from someone who might actually have a clue (not to imply you don't, just using a turn of phrase, I think you know what I mean).
Are any of our /. lawyers about? NewYorkCountryLawyer? Bueller? Bueller?
I'm here EdgeKeep Inc.
Windows XP - the full, bloated ugly version - runs fine in 1GB of memory. In fact, for most of its lifecycle, very few people every ran it at 2GB. All of the clinical workstations in my hospital still run it at 640MB (mostly just web-based apps), and many desktops in our organizations run it in 512MB. Admittedly, the latter machines are cripplingly slow, but it makes the point.
Microsoft has been porting XP to the OLPC for a while. The problem they are running into is that WinXP is nothing without its applications. In fact, MS isn't even worried about educational apps - its worried about Office. Check out the size of even a minimal install of Word - its not insignificant. However, without Office, XP just doesn't offer that much over a open source OS. *This* is their key stumbling block.
Frankly, this is a no win situation for MS. Unlike most PCs, in the OLPC "form follows function", ie the hardware is explicitly designed to support a certain set of priorities and functions. It can't be back-engineered so that Windows can run on it without either a) making it much more expensive, or b) turning it into just a stripped down Windows machine. If Negroponte holds firm then Windows will always be an inferior, second choice on the machine. Expect MS to hammer at the OLPC for being all sorts of terrible things and Negroponte for being an anti-capitalist obstructionist who belongs in Sweden eating French cheese with John Kerry.
+--------------------- You idiot! I told you we were facing the wrong way!
To me, they cost between 40 and 60 dollars, for the high school curriculum. The total cost was around 300 and 400 dollars, which is a lot for this high-school kid. I'd much rather have a laptop.
toresbe
No argument - it just does. It is IMPOSSIBLE to enforce copyright without monitoring all communication.
Sure it is: With a sane copyright law, it is only impossible to enforce without monitoring legal commerce. Which they have to do anyway, in anything but a laissez-faire system.
toresbe
Office is just the typewriter of the 21st century. The closest thing it has to programming is a spreadsheet.
/bin/sh.
There are programing tools for MS. But nothing so simple as
You do not need to read 30,000 pages to write a shell script and learn what makes a computer not just a glorious word processor.
We can leave the fact that MS requires many times the horsepower to run as compared to Linux.
When I wrote
The world is changing. Try to keep up. that was not an ad hominem attack. I had already won the argument by demonstrating that the facts did not support the assertions OP built his logic upon.My words were merely a gratuitous insult. And that is an affront to civility, not a matter of logic.
Kids today. You can't even insult them without them getting it all wrong.
Hey! Get off my lawn!
"Figure a textbook on the cheap is 5 bucks."
BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
LOL
You sir no zero about this subject, by this comment alone. Try between $20-$50 MINIMUM. There is a reason they don't replace them all that often, because they a friggin expensive. I know one school district that replaced only one set of books per year, which turned out to be a 10+ year rotation. My High School, many years ago, had about 2200 students. Figure 6-7 books per student plus spares and whatnot, that's an inventory of over 15,000 books (I'm sure it was MUCH more). I would personally estimate they had more than 20,000. At $50 a book (and college students will tell you that is a very low number), that would be $1 million per year to replace. That is an extra ordinarily low estimate and it does not count loss/damage or aquisition/expansion of new subjects. Even spread out over 10 years that is still very expensive. I will grant you that 1st grade readers are probably $5, but they are one time use and not all that different from a coloring book.
Add half a dozen flash memory slots and the kids can install Genuine Windows Vista Grass Hut Premium Edition(TM)
My turnips listen for the soft cry of your love
Undoing accidental mod
Quite true, however, if someone wants to benefit from the work you do, they owe you compensation for it
That is a very sad world view.
Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
Can I pester you about your website? The website looks like it hasn't been updated since February 2005. The mailing list looks like it had a message in June of 2004.
But I'm inferring from the way you are talking about the group that it is still active. Is there more info? Is the group in stasis but you (or others trying) to revive it?
Thank you for you time.
http://www.laptopgiving.org/en/index.php I ordered my OLPC under the give one, get one program.
All the anti-Microsoft people should support this program and get even more OLPC's out into the public.
If I win the lottery tonight, I will purchase many for our local schools.
it should have the most straightforward, easiest-to-use OS on the planet. Windows ain't it.
*sigh* He was talking about the actual cost of producing the book. Not the insane price that college students / school districts are forced to pay.
You are using English. Please learn the difference between loose and lose; they're, there, and their; your and you're.
Dude, even when I was in high-school, the free textbooks usually had a lifespan of less than a couple years. After being lugged around for a couple years, rained on at the bus stops, and doodled to death, the books were uselessly unreadable after a couple of students had passed through them.
I can't see them standing up any better in a third world environment. Just making the OLPC waterproof should make it easily outlast most textbooks, and it is already pretty much doodle-proof.
Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
That may be true but you have to pay for it. Last I checked MSDN subscriptions aren't cheap. You aren't going to find many parents of your average intelligent twelve year old who are going to cough up a couple of grand a year so that their kid can have access to documentation.
Not very insightful. Firstly it isn't really just trying to replace books - if it was then the project would be "laughably absurd", but it's not. That $200 device does far more than a book ever could. Secondly, fast-forward five to fifteen years as economies of scale and ever-cheapening electronics allow the device to be sold at, say, $20. Third, even if the damn thing is destroyed, with books in electronic format, just buy a new one and transfer thousands of books back to the new one in mere seconds at virtually no cost --- destroying the device doesn't necessarily 'destroy the content', as you imply, and as is the case with books. Finally, I live in a third-world country, and it was access to computers at a very young age that sparked my interest in learning to program, which now allows me to earn a good income and create and export software products to the entire world, bringing forex into the country and creating jobs, so why don't you STFU and let poor people decide for themselves that they "need" - it's not your money, so how is OLPC harmful?
I don't know, because as far as I can tell, they aren't. The Classmate was a last-ditch effort by Microsoft and Intel to avoid being shut out of a whole generation.
Answer me this, then: If the Classmate really was about the kids, why does it, I don't know, exist in the first place? Why not simply take all that money and donate it to OLPC, which obviously has put a lot more thought and effort into the design of the machine?
While this is true, I'm also quite disgusted by the behavior of the people behind the Classmate.
First, Intel dismisses the XO as a "gadget". Then the come out with their own machine, much later, with much less functionality, as a "Me too!" product.
Really, it's not that I'm unhappy that kids are getting computers, but rather, that this is an opportunity for these kids to get so much more -- for any of them to build the next generation of software, say. Take the ability to press a keystroke to reveal (and edit) the source code to any application on the OLPC -- can the Classmate do that? Will it ever be able to?
If you'd like to appear less hypocritical yourself, go read those press releases, and find out what the project is actually doing.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
Some do, some don't. Subsistence agriculture still exists in many parts of the world. One of the places we've placed computers, in Chiapas, the land is communally owned by several small villages. These computers have been used for checking prices, recording languages (something like 13 dialects spoken across the 80 villages that the computers serve), and maintaining communication between displaced people.
Not necessarily. Not all doctors make lots of money - especially in the third world. And they have to prioritize their spending, so getting a free computer can go a long way. Sure, a doctor in Mexico can go to a nearby city and get a computer for a couple of thousand, and maybe even find someone locally who can show him how to set it up and use it and maintain it. Or he can get a free computer and spend that couple of thousand on medicine or other needed items.
The African Commission on Human and People's Rights, for example, is a huge organization which probably has more than a thousand times as much funding as GWoB does, but we were still able to help them out with a couple of photocopiers. Yeah, maybe they could have just purchased some somewhere, but budgets are tight and every purchase of something means they can't purchase something else they need.
If the masses can keep you down, you're not the Ubermensch.
OLPC isn't "a rich man's idea of what a poor man needs"; it's an educated man's idea of what an uneducated, and poor, man needs. In the U.S. we spend on the order of $10,000/yr on a child's education; OLPC is on the order of $10 to $100 /yr. If I could buy a needy child $200 worth of books, it would be one laptop with a hotlink to Wikipedia; he could explore for a lifetime, at least until he is big enough to labor in the fields and have no more time for either study or play. Meanwhile he may have learned about low-tech things he can use, like crop-rotation and archimedian irrigation and boiling water.
Bantying metaphors is fun. I suggest: sell a beatup old pickup to a farmer in a region with no paved roads. It may still take him days to get his produce to market, but at least now he can get his produce to market, and it will help his region become prosperous enough to someday pave their roads. The point is bang for the buck, and this is a lot of bang, if you appreciate the positive effect of literacy and communication, which in the West we take for granted. -- yoof
Because XP is Vista without most of the crap, and it's moving towards the end of its supported life.
:-)
All they have left to do is screw it up enough to get people to transition to Vista, but that's what SP3 is for. Me? I bet XP SP3 will install UAC, just to drive us all nuts
Yes, the group is still active. Sort of. We're small and underfunded, and have no paid staff, so we're generally limited to about 2-3 projects per year.
:)
:)
Yeah, we desperately need to update the web site. And I keep putting off sending out another mailing list update until we have more news to report. We're on the verge of getting our permanent determination letter for our 501(c)3. (The initial one is good for only five years, so the IRS can evaluate your five-year report to make a final determination if you get it.) (And, of course, all the rules have changed since we first set up, so I'm having all sorts of fun with that
Mostly, right now we're spending our time trying to get rid of the useless pieces in the warehouse to make room for more stuff, and building as many computers as we can out of the working parts, some to go to a school in India, and many to be distributed locally.
But, yeah, now that you mention it, I really do need to get an update out to the mailing list.
If the masses can keep you down, you're not the Ubermensch.
Judging by your username, you come from Poland, the Czech Republic or Slovakia. Those countries, while having strongly growing economies, are not yet where most of western Europe is. Here, in Switzerland, Macs are insanely popular. I know two people who DON'T have Macs. My entire company recently switched over to Macs. I have three Macs at home. One of the Macs also runs WinXP and MS Office (both legal unpirated editions, as opposed to the massive pirating of software in eastern Europe). Macs here in Switzerland have the highest uptake rate worldwide, higher even than the USA.
In time, when eastern Europe gets richer, and it will, you will see the same thing happening there. I'm not a Mac user because somehow Macs and OSX are trendy. I really hate the new OSX 10.5 user interface. I even think Vista looks better. I use OSX because it is rock solid compared to Windows. I have to support the last few Windows users at work and it is almost always a royal pain. OSX is simply less costly in terms of user support, by, at least, a whole order of magnitude.
The reason that Macs are popular has to do with price and the perceived price. The rate of Mac usage in France, for example, is very high, despite the French economy being worse off than the English and German ones. Macs are less popular in England and Germany because they are perceived as costing more, especially in Germany, which is known for its cost saving mentality. In Holland, Denmark and Sweden, Macs are also wildly popular, and even in Italy to a certain extent.
The irony of using Macs is that the OS supplies fantastic Windows drivers. As with OSX the hardware set is a known factor and all the hardware works flawlessly in Windows. Much better than Lenovo or no name brand PCs (of which we still have a few around to shove under conservative clients noses who think that Macs are still like Mac OS7). Macs are actually better PCs than PCs themselves.
Considering the alternative is that we take the work from them by force, I'd consider your world view far, far, far more sad.
"16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
Windows has had a high contrast black/white mode since at least Win 95.
Q.
MS only sees a 'laptop' and it thus needs 'an OS' (sorry, MICROSOFT's OS). They forget that OLPC is a whole concept where the hardware and software is only a carrier for the educational framework that Negroponte and his team have dreamt up.
It's not unusual that Microsoft doesn't see that (or wilfully ignores it, let's be precise here). Innovation isn't exactly their stong point, is it?
Insert
Look I do see your point, but it really is irrelevant. RMS may not acknowledge what copyright has done and continues to do for free software, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Thanks to copyright and the GPL, whenever you want use a new piece of software, you are (all but completely) guaranteed to have access to the source. It is the best way to keep your system transparent, since you can know every single line of code that graces your machine. Not only that, but the GPLed code manages to enrich itself from community and corporate participation.
Compare that with a world without copyright. I'd predict that free software would be downloaded mostly by a handful of trusted sites, since the internet landscape would be littered with clumsily updated, or even deliberately poisoned binaries/code. The trusted sites would have to deal with low speeds and high maintenance costs, thanks to the high volume of traffic that's usually shifted onto P2P networks. The low speeds would discourage the downloading of the source, making community improvement much more slow. To cover the costs, the site would have to rely on more advertising revenue, with bigger, more intrusive advertising. Meanwhile, inexperienced users, after downloading from an untrustworthy site, would bash free software on forums, associating forever the concept of free software with viruses, trojans, and other malware. Overall usage would slowly deflate, as new users would avoid formerly free software after reading the online testimonies, or having to deal with the slow speeds. Old users would leave the flock for the slow speeds and the advertising. Free software would die a slow and painful death.
Thanks to copyright though, that doesn't have to happen.
You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
Indeed, I think Picard put it best... "They invade our space, and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds, and we fall back. Not again. The line must be drawn here! This far, no further!"
We WANT Microsoft to SAY they will port XP to the OLPC.
People who have never heard of the OLPC project will now become curious because Microsoft mentioned it.
This will spur further adoption of the OLPC.
Of course, like all their other promises, Microsoft will NOT deliver and people will get used to Linux and open software on the OLPC.
Way to score a point for us, Microsoft!
Considering the alternative is that we take the work from them by force, I'd consider your world view far, far, far more sad.
Ah the good old "taking by force". I could bring out the good old responses about how you can take something from someone even though they still have it. But it's more fun watching someone who believes that they subscribe to rationality and "your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins" trying desperately to pretend their nose was struck, even though my fist is half the world away in my own house.
Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
That is a brilliant typo, could be either "piracy" or "privacy". Though, confusingly, it isn't present in the parent post.
I already said that unless you want to give up your work for free, you are owed compensation by someone who wants to benefit from it.
There are three possible ways to obtain someone's work, and thereby, benefit from it. If they give it up willingly, for a profit, if they give it up willingly, for free, or if you get it against the creator's will. Doing something someone doesn't want IS FORCE. Whether or not you physically harm them is 100% irrelevant.
"16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
Exactly - There's two components to the cost of a book: Physical - printing, binding, shipping all cost money. The second is Royalties/profit. For textbooks, the second is usually larger than the first.
For developing nations, It's not like we're really forced to use fully up to date math textbooks with their $$$ going to a pool of authors/publisher.
I figure they can come up with either some public domain books, get some authors to agree to reduced/group royalties, etc...
I don't read AC A human right
I'm sure somebody will produce educational games for it eventually
Gcompris, which in my opinion is some of the best educational software out there, is already involved in OLPC.
Let me just say that most of the educational software I've seen is poorly made, and of dubious educational value at best. Gcompris could use some better graphics perhaps, but the actual activities and overall playability are far beyond any of the "professional" products I've seen.
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
Doing something someone doesn't want IS FORCE. Whether or not you physically harm them is 100% irrelevant.
Please refrain from standing on one leg in the future. I don't want you to.
Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
Also a type of Dodge Neon, if I'm not mistaken.