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Well, I got new, 2017, bare bones, Toyota Corolla for under $24,000.00. (extended waranty cost me close to $3,000.00) But you must be thinking of some other brands, which indeed are more expensive. (I'm cheap, I almost bought a Yaris) It's interesting to know that Tesla's Insurance is low, I'm pleasantly surprised! If I had the money, I'd buy one. I love electric cars. Gas Engines: Due to frictional losses, you only get 10% of horsepower at the wheels. A 500 peak gas horsepower engine is only getting 50 hp to the wheels, due to frictional losses. A 50 hp DC Electric motor, with pulse width modulation can deliver 50 hp after just a few revolutions. They can temporarily withstand over voltage. But you pay with a shorter lifespan Here's an Electric Drag Racing Site that has existed for for way over a decade: http://www.nedra.com/

Male motoring reporters don't like electric cars. Simple fact.

In the UK Top Gear program, the only presenter ever to make a grudging positive comment about an electric vehicle is James May, nicknamed Captain Slow by the others. I suspect there might be an agenda at work there.

Probably because electric cars are seen as a threat. Even as we speak, they are making inroads into the drag racing world, there is a Volkswagon Beetle that is turning th equarter mile in 9.51 seconds, and a Camaro doing 10.08

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1065067_a-ten-second-camaro-promotes-electric-drag-racing

Big Daddy Don Garlits is at work on an electric dragster: http://www.nedra.com/

Why would these guys hate these electric vehicles? They have much invested in the tweaking and futzing with internal combustion vehicles. I was involved in Drag and motorcycle racing years ago, and we spent a lot of time - and money - on adding parts, modifying engines, experimenting with valve angles, or on my two stroke bikes modifying piston and port shapes and polish. THey have a mental investment in the sounds, smells, and activity around the internal combustion engine. They probably don't understand how much of this works, which breeds fear and hate.

And that can hate them as much as they like, it is not going to change anything. I read the report, the response by Musk, and the retort.

Dude wanted that Tesla to fail in the worst kind of way. And I consider his integrity to be completely lacking,

One of these might.

About $7000, including donor car. I estimate about two man-months of actual labor, interspersed over almost three years of real time.

But why do you ask? I thought we were talking about well-to-wheels efficiency. If you want an EV that saves money, you don't want my car. If you want a fast, long-range EV, there are better options as well (there are even really fast home-built EVs).

I built *my* car for *my* needs. Which were: reliability and carrying my family around. I never have to change filters, plugs, or belts. None of my parts wear out except the wheels, and the only lubrication I require is the transmission fluid.

My car requires no maintenance, which is what I was shooting for. I happened to get efficiency, "zero emissions", silence, battery-backup for my house in disasters, the ability to refuel from any electrical outlet, and the cool factor (my kids love it, and brag about it to their friends).

Oh, and the "EV Grin": the amazing feeling you get from driving the car you built yourself.

I'd say it was worth the 7K. I'd gladly do it again.

How about an 11 second Datsun, then?

Uh, he does. All the time.

Any engineer worth his salt can tell you that electric motors put out a hell of a lot more torque than gasoline engines. Gasoline engines are restricted by the tolerances of their mechanical parts, even if the engine is capable of producing more horsepower under load. That's why raw horsepower figures are often a poor indicator of a vehicle's acceleration.

No kidding. I recall 8-10 years ago reading an issue of Wired where they talked about electric powered cars that can produce more torgue than gasoline powered cars. Then they pointed out that people have been racing electric powered cards for years.

Just check out NEDRA if you have any doubts. It must have been a slow news day at CNN.

There's a lot of misinformation in your response as well. The EV1 was not underpowered and had full modern safety equipment. As did the RAV4 EV from Toyota, the Ford RangerEV (only sold as a fleet car), and the Chevy Silverado EV (also only sold as a fleet vehicle). The performance of the EV versions of the gas cars was identical except for range, which has been corrected since these vehicles first came out with LiIon batteries (which are much lighter with better energy density than PbA batteries). Latter version os the RAV4 EV and the EV1 took advantage of early LiIon packs to achieve 120-175 miles per charge.

Modern LiIon batteries from folks like Kokam can be recharged from empty in as little as 2 hours with high amperage chargers like the ones from Nazita Micro (http://www.manzanitamicro.com/chargers3.htm). AGM VSLA (PbA variant) batteries like the Optima Yellow Top or Excide Orbital can be dump charged (one pack to another) in a few minutes. Chargeing off a 50 amp charger from 80% DoD is about a 2 hour affair.

Electric cars ain't slow, either (http://www.nedra.com/). The fastest electric dragster out there run 8 second 1/4 miles regularly. The owner races in Arizona NHRA bracket racing competing with top fuel rail dragsters and was second int he state last year. He's looking for sponsors so he can build his sub 6 second electric dragster.

The top completely street legal electric car (with street tires on) does the 1/4 in 12.245 @ 104.50 mph (http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/videos/pir%20oct.2 2%20run%207.MOV). These are all home made conversions no less. Without access to the money and technology available to major auto manufacturers.

The Tango (http://www.commutercars.com/) may look a little funny, but it has better safety features than modern passenger cars, outperforms the Viper RT/10 and get close to 100 miles to a charge on PbA batteries. George Clooney bouight one recently.

There is really no reason that a 200-300 mile per charge EV that recharges in under 2 hours, carries 4, with all the modern safety features, and better performance than your average sedan. Other than there is no market pressure to create one.

I leave you with a little 6 minute video showcasing the amatuer EV world in all it's weird and wild glory at the Woodburn races in 2003. The original prototype Tango shows up in the second half:

http://www.deadwarrior.com/downloads/AustinEV/wood burn_2003_small.avi

Yeah, 'cause electric cars are all solar challenge style carbon fiber coffins...oh wait, no they're not:

http://www.nedra.com/

http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/videos.php

There is a National Electric Drag Racing Association
http://www.nedra.com/

Also, The Tango can go 0 to 60 in 4 seconds. This is designed for commuting, rather than for family traveling. Most cars on the road today are primarily used for commuting. http://www.commutercars.com/

You should check these guys out...

The drag race pure electric cars/motorcycles...

http://www.nedra.com/

Here's the idea for a hybrid on the other hand - take all the complexities, idiosyncracies, maintenance woes, hazards etc. of both gas-powered and electric cars and combine them into a single design. Sounds like a recipe for a nightmare to me if not well-executed.

Just in case you think electric cars cannot be quick or powerful enough check this out:

National Electric Drag Racing Association

And you can get a lot of help to build such a car yourself here. Disclaimer: I'm not following my own advice yet, due to lack of time; but I plan to.

Ah, but there is an NHRA sanctioned body named the National Electric Drag Racing Association which drag races EV's

See: http://www.nedra.com/

Diesel tourque is hard to beat, even with electric tourque.

Electric vehicle motors have 100% torque available at stall and near-stall conditions. This is sometimes enough to break things like transmissions and drivelines in experimental vehicles. Facts

And in city driving 0-25 is an important number..

Agreed. There's a saying: horsepower sells engines, torque gets you there. I find the instant-on high-torque behavior of electric motors in both hybrids and pure EVs to make city driving rather fun.

That heavy discharge capacity is exactly what you want when you're drag racing an electric car. Check out NEDRA to see what I mean.

Still, I'd love to have these batteries. With their severe discharge capabilities, I could be breaking axles drag racing at NEDRA activities. Watch out, Wayland!

Electric cars can definately move quick, check out NEDRA, the National Electric Drag Race Association. Also, there's the increasingly popular Tzero from AC Propulsion that has 100+ mile range, 0-60 in 4.1s, and turns the 1/4 mile in 13.2. And it's street legal.

I remember reading this story in Wired some years ago about electric vehicle drag racing. The article talks about the National Electric Drag Racing Association (NEDRA), among other things.

Some of these cars are what you think of when you think of drag racing; some of them aren't, like this street legal 1972 Datsun 1200 "White Zombie" mentioned in the Wired story. Some people build electric motorcycles too; check out the KillaCycle .

The 60ft times on most electric cars (particularly the Series DC motor based ones) compeletly annihilate the gas cars. The electric gets up to top speed faster, but tends to wind up at a slower overall speed than the gas cars (right now anyway) meaning that the gas car catches up in the latter portion of the quarter mile. The current EV 1/4 record is an electric dragster in 8.801 seconds at 137.65 mph.

For a complete listing of EV record holders see the following list:

NEDRA Records

The T-Zero tops out at 100mph because it is a single speed vehicle. At 100mph the motor is spinning close to its RPM failure limit.

If you want to see 1/4 mile electric beasts go visit the National Electric Drag Racing Association.

BTW The NEDRA rules have been officially incorporated into the NHRA's rulebook and electric cars can set records at any NHRA sanctioned track/event.

Of course video speaks louder than words (please don't attack me for the format types, I didn't make the dang things):

DC Electric Mazda RX-7 conversion beats a Viper RT/10

VIper just barely beats a home brew 1972 Datsun 1200 EV conversion

Various drag races. Some EV vs EV some EV vs ICE. The black electric dragster (near lane) vs white suped up gas pony car (far lane) about 1/5 of the way through the video is rather amusing. I'm sure the driver of the gas car was not pleased at getting beaten so thoroughly.

If organized racing of electric, or even hybrid, cars were to take place...Education of the public

Unfortunately, it is already happening, and the public has not noticed. Nik Berg's Prius Rally Car finished 14th in the 5000 mile Midnight Sun to Red Sea Rally. The Panoz Q9 hybrid finished 12th at LemManns. Jerry Unser beat several normal cars when she did the Pikes Peak Hill Climb with an electric. NEDRA has been drag racing electrics since 1998, and the NHRA now has rules for electric drag racing. Guess what? The public doesn't know and/or doesn't care. Until EVs and HEVs are consistantly *WINNING*, the public won't notice. I wish it were not that way, but it is.

If you electric car panseys were smart, you'd start promoting EV dragraces. You're sure to get BillyBob onboard when an EV starts winning at "NASCAR".

You mean like the National Electric Drag Racing Association?

Well, that's what they're doing ... even the electric vehicle races at nedra.com

And if you look at the videos, you can see that it's *very* stable.

The motor that's in it is a small fraction of the cost.

They've had it at Woodburn, Oregon's annual EV drag races in earlier prototypes. Come to this year's (August 31) and if you're lucky, maybe they'll bring one this year.

Come to the OEVA EV Awareness Day tomorrow (today? July 26) and if you're real lucky, maybe they'll have one here then too (they did last year).

1) Lead batteries are the most recycled product on the face of the earth. No kidding. The only part not always recycled is the plastic shell. The lead and electrolytes are all reused.

2) There are plenty of them (and tons that drive more like the gas econoboxes that are more common than the gas sports cars). You can see some here, here, here, here, and here. Or peruse the entire album of EVs great and small, ugly and beautiful, slow and fast at the EV Photo Album.

Also see The National Electric Drag Racing Association and the electric supercar, the T-Zero

3) I'm sorry when did you get a muscle car with a 400 mile range? Generally (even with an oversized gas tank) these cars come in at the 200-300 mile range per fill-up at best. Are EV's there yet? Not quite. 150 miles per charge is about the upper limit right now. But guess what? 95% or more of most Americans driving is less than 50 miles per day.

4) Since the car is plugged into the wall every night and charges while you sleep you're not having to blow 5-10 minutes pumping gas and that's excluding any time and effort it takes you to detour to the gas station.

However, a significantly shorter recharge is easily done with higher Amperage circuits in your home (typical EV car can recharge in only a few hours anyway) and/or a battery based dump station that can recharge your pack in 10 minutes or less. The EV dragsters use such (admittedly somewhat frightening) dump packs on a regular basis.

5) Oh and most of these supposedly wimpy electric car conversions can eat your American muscle car for lunch. It's nice being able to have your full torque available through your entire power curve.

Heck some electric cars can even eat exotic sports cars for lunch.

Actually EV's (even working almost entirely on home brew old technologies and sealed lead acid batteries) can already hit the price-point, speed, looks, and power that you talk about.

In fact a vehicle converted from electric to gas is frequently _more_ fun to drive (and still looks the same from the outside) as your full torque is typically available through the entire power curve. Think EV's have to be wimpy golf carts or suppository shaped? Checkout the amateur monsters that race in the National Electric Drag Racing Association or the high performance electric supercar, the T-Zero.

Now there are two points that will most likely keep Joe Shmoe from buying one.

1) Limited range - the best EV's still get only slightly over 100 miles to the charge. Despite the fact that most Americans drive less than 40 miles a day 95% of the year, people feel more comfortable knowing that they can drive for 200-400 miles on a tank of gas. Most people are also used to gas vehicles that give little or no warning (save for the questionable accuracy of a fuel low, float gauge operated, warning light) before running out of fuel. When an electric hits the end of its pack charge performance begins to lessen giving the driver ample (and definitive) warning that they need to find a place to recharge. Oh and there is no need for fancy schmancy thousand dollar connectors to be installed to recharge, that's all about the auto manufacturer's wanting to reduce liability concerns. Most of the EVers I know running custom conversions use their standard 110v or 220v connectors to charge. Also charging does not have to be an 8 hour fiasco. Even on a 15-amp 220-volt circuit you can recharge most packs in less than half that time. Happen to have access to a 50-amp circuit? The time to charge improves greatly. Plus as you plug the car in every night your fully charged every morning ready for a full day of driving. You never have leave your normal route to use a gas station again. Run out of power somewhere? Generally you can find someone with an outlet willing to let you charge up for a little while so that you can make it home. There are more places with electrical outlets than there are with cans of gasoline lying around.

2) Noise - Now this is one that I think most people adjust to (and grow to appreciate), but electrics make little or no noise beyond the sound of tires on pavement. To a lot of gear heads this is a deal breaker. They (understandably) like the roar of a V-8. The turbine like whine of a high revved electric just doesn't quite do it for them. As a fan of all high performance vehicles I know where they are coming from and know that it is futile to argue a matter of taste so I won't spend too long on this. Basically I think most people will find the quiet of an electric appealing after they give it a chance. There is something addictive about being forced back into your seat as you rocket off the line to little more than the sound of the wind rushing bye.

The real problem is that alternative fuel vehicles of every sort, woefully underperform even the most humble gas powered vehicle

This is a common misconception spread by people too lazy to think. If you read up, you'll find most alternative fuel (AF) vehicles outperform gasoline. GM's EV1 battery electric was 0-60mph in about 4.9sec, faster than a 5.0L mustang, and a heck of a lot more fun to drive. Check out Nedra.com for a selection of battery electric drag racers.(Electric drivetrains produce instantanous torque, over a wide range, much more power than gasoline)

Its true that most prototype AF vehicles have been slugs, alternative fuel vehicles are often designed for efficency, not performance, and the two tend to be mutually exclusive.

As for NEV's, they have a nitch, but I really don't see a huge market beyond the city center or retirement/closed communities. American's mostly buy cars based on perceived need :

"I commute to work alone in this monsterous gas guzzling SUV becuase I might buy a boat and need to tow it, or haul the soccer team to Dallas, even though I don't have kids or climb a giant mountain that might spring up in the middle of Nebraska" Advertising encourages this irrational line of thinking.

"I don't want to drive a clean, fast electric car, becuase I might want to road trip 500 miles to Tijuana on impulse once a year." Ignoring the idea that a rental car works nicely for long trips and is considerable cheaper than owing unused capacity)

The other problem is that none of the major auto manufactuers are doing anything but dabble in the AF market Its impossible for a new car company to emerge today, safety regs require you crash test quite a few cars before selling, and selling a car for 10-20k$ is nearly impossible unless you sell 100,000 of them. So the automotive newcomers/innovators are tackling the NEV market, which require less units to be profitable, safety requirements are lighter, and margins are larger.

Wow, these guys must be pretty dumb then. If an electric motor is good at anything, it is acceleration. An electric motor has its highest torque at zero rpm. Do a Google search for electric dragsters and you'll find some neat stuff, e.g. like this.

A new spin off of the NHRA, NEDRA is the National Electric Drag Racing Association.

Nothing like an electric motorcycle hitting 152 mph in 9.4 seconds on the quarter mile.

Also amusing to see an old Mazda RX7 nearly stand pure vertical on its rear bumper on launch. They added wheelie bars to the car the next year.

Or perhaps you'd rather drive a nice 100 mile range electric sports car that can beat a Corvette off the line.

Electric vehicles are advancing rather impressively on the small scale with little or no R&D funding. Which makes the total lack of interest displayed by the major auto manufacturers all the more disheartening.

Speaking of performance electrics, don't forget NEDRA. Their current champion, "Current Eliminator IV", uses Dragster - 336V of batteries and did a standing quarter-mile in 8.801 seconds. I wonder what it sounded like - a two-tonne bumble-bee on crack..?

I second the previous comments about the need to keep wheel mass low - low sprung weight is a definite goal of performance cars. It's hard to call this thing a car, it's more like a bus, since it seats 8 and weighs 3 tonnes...

I agree with that. Even the electric drag racers don't go that fast, and they're specifically built for acceleration and speed.

Really?

Can cars propelled by electric motors burn rubber? Heck yes!

I was amazed at the smooth (and very powerful) acceleration.

Electric cars can accelerate faster than comparable gas counterparts at the expense of power usage. Most people are familiar with golf carts, which use low voltage (48v dc) and small motors, but their heftier cousins at the race track use crazy monster motors juiced up at 144+ vdc. (There is a National ELECTRIC Drag Racing Association, lots of homebuilt electric dragsters, laying patches of rubber.)

It is disappointing that electric cars are not yet economically viable.

While the EV-1 is a nice demonstration car, it's a very bad example of how to go about building an economical electric vehicle. For one thing, the EV-1 uses AC power for the drivetrain - theoretically more efficient, but it requires a very expensive custom-built AC controller to deliver power to the motor(s?). A cheaper mass-market controller forms the basis for many more conventional DC gas to electric conversions.

The biggest cost (and inconvenience) is the batteries. The cheapest batteries are lead-acid (and they're environmentally friendly - 99% of lead in the US is recycled, as opposed to stuff like ni-cad) and even then, they need to be replaced every 3-4 years. Charging will cost you a few hours, and requires lots of amps, preferably at 220v. Plus, most EV charging stations use proprietary connectors (magna-charger paddle) designed for cars like the EV-1.

I once took a ride in a converted Ford Escort, and the ride was comparable to a gas car, except there was no engine noise. Its kind of eerie to be accelerating, and only have road and tire noise - you know you're not coasting, but that's what it sounds like.

If you go homebrew electric, don't be put off by the extremists that tell you to basically get a subcompact car to stick your batteries and motor into. There have been conversions of race cars, and suvs - not every environmentally friendly car has to be ultra-tiny and inconvenient (if not downright uncomfortable!) The biggest advantage to getting a light platform is greater range for less weight (less body weight means smaller motor, less batteries which in turns means less weight, meaning you can get away with an even smaller motor and less batteries...) but if you're willing to carry more batteries, you can use a larger platform.

For long distance trips, you can hybridize your electric car by using a generator trailer. Don't use a hardware store 4-stroke generator - those things are emissions menaces. If you know enough to rip the gas motor out of a gas car (usually used, unless you're rich enough to convert a brand new car) and replace it with an electric motor, you should know enough to mount a nice VTEC engine with emissions system in a compact trailer, and mate it to an efficient generator. With this, long distance drives can be fueled with gas, and you can still do electric once you hit your destination (just park the trailer.)

NEDRA maintains a page of links, and I really like these guys: http://www.Wilde-EVolutions.com

I was amazed at the smooth (and very powerful) acceleration.

Electric cars can accelerate faster than comparable gas counterparts at the expense of power usage. Most people are familiar with golf carts, which use low voltage (48v dc) and small motors, but their heftier cousins at the race track use crazy monster motors juiced up at 144+ vdc. (There is a National ELECTRIC Drag Racing Association, lots of homebuilt electric dragsters, laying patches of rubber.)

It is disappointing that electric cars are not yet economically viable.

While the EV-1 is a nice demonstration car, it's a very bad example of how to go about building an economical electric vehicle. For one thing, the EV-1 uses AC power for the drivetrain - theoretically more efficient, but it requires a very expensive custom-built AC controller to deliver power to the motor(s?). A cheaper mass-market controller forms the basis for many more conventional DC gas to electric conversions.

The biggest cost (and inconvenience) is the batteries. The cheapest batteries are lead-acid (and they're environmentally friendly - 99% of lead in the US is recycled, as opposed to stuff like ni-cad) and even then, they need to be replaced every 3-4 years. Charging will cost you a few hours, and requires lots of amps, preferably at 220v. Plus, most EV charging stations use proprietary connectors (magna-charger paddle) designed for cars like the EV-1.

I once took a ride in a converted Ford Escort, and the ride was comparable to a gas car, except there was no engine noise. Its kind of eerie to be accelerating, and only have road and tire noise - you know you're not coasting, but that's what it sounds like.

If you go homebrew electric, don't be put off by the extremists that tell you to basically get a subcompact car to stick your batteries and motor into. There have been conversions of race cars, and suvs - not every environmentally friendly car has to be ultra-tiny and inconvenient (if not downright uncomfortable!) The biggest advantage to getting a light platform is greater range for less weight (less body weight means smaller motor, less batteries which in turns means less weight, meaning you can get away with an even smaller motor and less batteries...) but if you're willing to carry more batteries, you can use a larger platform.

For long distance trips, you can hybridize your electric car by using a generator trailer. Don't use a hardware store 4-stroke generator - those things are emissions menaces. If you know enough to rip the gas motor out of a gas car (usually used, unless you're rich enough to convert a brand new car) and replace it with an electric motor, you should know enough to mount a nice VTEC engine with emissions system in a compact trailer, and mate it to an efficient generator. With this, long distance drives can be fueled with gas, and you can still do electric once you hit your destination (just park the trailer.)

NEDRA maintains a page of links, and I really like these guys: http://www.Wilde-EVolutions.com

Many car manufacturers are moving to using industry standard buses and protocols (CAN and a couple of SAE standards) for internal communication. There is a lot of "wiggle" room for people to come up with Gizmos that attach to this hardware and do things the manufacturer never intended. For example.. many people love to have a tach, but many dashs lack them. The tach information is available on the computer/diagnostic bus, how about designing a simple PIC circuit to read the RPM message and display it on a LED display.

Lets face it.. hardware hacking in all its forms has gotton harder and harder for the last 20 years as more custom PLC and ASIC devices appear and Surface mount becuase the standard.

If you really want a challenge, convert your old gas powered car to electric. You'll end up with an extremely simple system you can work on yourself (only one moving part in an electric motor and no need for complex computers and emission controls) as well as a car that will get you to work in the worst weather, without the need to warm it up. (Just jump in and go, heat is electric and instantanous) and DC motors can really hual ass. Oh.. and its non-polluting, so you can feel smug about never having to get a smog check again.

It's pretty amazing what you can do with the solar vehicles considering the truly poor energy density available even in a 1 meter x 3 meter area. The amount of energy it takes to move those vehicles is extremely small. For the high power stuff you need to go to Nedra.com or for the day to day usable electric cars, trikes, motorcycles, and bicycles check out EV Album. Many of these were hand built.

If you are mechanically inclined and ambitious, you CAN make your own car that runs on grease if you like. Here are some good links on converting a gas cars into pure electrics or hybrids like the Insight. More links here.

On a tangentially related topic, for the slightly eccentric there's info on "performance" electric vehicles here. The world record holder's page is here. 8.801 seconds in the quarter on batteries, and the baby pulls 1200 amps. Amazing.

- Freed

The problem with current electric cars is that batteries don't have enough range. The new fuel cells (like the ones in this story) may be able to change that
--
"Weapons should be hardy rather than decorative" - Musashi

I think these will work well in electric dragsters..
NEDRA

Not necessarily.

Try The National Electric Drag Racing Association.

Bingo Foo

---

Check this out:

National Electric Drag Racing Association

For pictures of a bunch of EV's see:

Electric Vehicle Discussion List Photo Album

For EV's for sale see:

EV Tradin' Post

-cajun

Although for that matter, I'm pretty impressed with a power supply that can deliver that kind of current, too. (Quick calculation on xcalc...) Conservatively, that comes out to around 100 KW from a battery!