Slashdot Mirror
New Speed Record For Hybrid Cars
prostoalex writes "According to CarPages, Toyota Prius set a new world record for hybrid vehicles. It 'set the mark at 130.794 mph on the three-mile short course using a standard Hybrid Synergy Drive power-train - a mixture of 1.5 litre petrol engine and an electric motor.'"
actually, it's the only hybrid ever entered. In fact, they had to convince the people to open a new category in order to allow the vehicle, because it has more than one 'engine'. IIRC, it may also have been because the other 'engine' (elec. motor) doesn't 'use conventional fuel'.
The difference between spam and poop is that you don't have to dig through septic tanks looking for real food. -- Me
This car was not exactly "standard", as the summary claims.
"An engineering group from Toyota Motorsport in the USA prepared the car by changing the gear ratios (4.32:1 to 3.2:1) and increasing the inverter voltage from 500 to 550 volts. A transmission cooling system was added to decrease the temperature of the inverter and electric motor to maximise efficiency. Ambient temperature on the salt flats was nearly 100 degrees Fahrenheit with nearly 100 degrees humidity. Ice was added between runs to keep the system cool.
The interior of the car was stripped to save weight, a roll cage added for safety and the whole car lowered by five inches to improve the aerodynamics for this highly specialised record attempt. Even the 26 in front and 25 in rear tyres were made especially by Goodyear."
With that in mind, hybrids have a long way to go.
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An engineering group from Toyota Motorsport in the USA prepared the car by changing the gear ratios (4.32:1 to 3.2:1) and increasing the inverter voltage from 500 to 550 volts. A transmission cooling system was added to decrease the temperature of the inverter and electric motor to maximise efficiency. Ambient temperature on the salt flats was nearly 100 degrees Fahrenheit with nearly 100 degrees humidity. Ice was added between runs to keep the system cool.
The interior of the car was stripped to save weight, a roll cage added for safety and the whole car lowered by five inches to improve the aerodynamics for this highly specialised record attempt. Even the 26 in front and 25 in rear tyres were made especially by Goodyear.
This can help crush myths (and not-so-myths) about Hybrids being slow and laggy.
Though they are not built for speed, most people would like to know that their car can easily go 80. Further, Hybrid racing is an interesting idea. Virtually all types of races are about getting good speed under certain limiting conditions... what an interesting limit to be up against.
You are so brilliant. The grandparent was simply pointing out that it is not top speed that will define hybrid's success in the market place. This headline is worthless.
See my journal for slashdot ID's by year. Mine created in 2005. http://slashdot.org/journal/289875/slashdot-ids-by-year
100 degrees humidity? Sheesh...
The difference between spam and poop is that you don't have to dig through septic tanks looking for real food. -- Me
What, did it go off a cliff?
Unknown host pong.
I was quite impressed. (The car, on the other hand, was shaking like mad and generally not happy about things.)
The Prius has a slightly smaller engine (1500 cc vs. 1600 cc) but the Rabbit didn't have an electric motor to help. Also, the Rabbit wasn't modified for speed in any manner, though it _did_ have a `Turbo' button on the dash. (When one pressed it, I pushed on the gas harder, creating a `Turbo' effect of sorts. Great times!)
Just 130? And they don't indicate the acceleration.
My TransAm does at least 160, or at least that's where I bury the speedometer.. I didn't have to strip out the interior, or modify anything..
Ok, ya, I don't get the fuel economy (only 26mpg), but hey, I don't drive far either. The T/A is much safer than that little egg shell though.
Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
Right, and replace it with the fact they need ice to go fast. This wasn't a stock car.
Where hybrid and pure electric cars really need to improve is the all important ability to get up to speed quickly and smoothly, and it doesn't appear that this car really addressed this critical issue.
_____
Thank you.
230,197.44 Football Fields per hour! Note - American Unit Football Fields (why won't they switch over to the world football standard!)
The fantastic acceleration that in line wheel electric drive can potentialy deliver would make for some very exciting racing.
Let's face it, cool car ideas come from people who love cars the way most /.ers love processor overclocking, water-cooling, and case mods. Convincing a wider audience that tweaking a hybrid will make it jump up and dance is never a bad idea.
Of course, as a side note, the industry's approach to hybrid autos is flat out wrong. Railroad trains are very efficient, well-proven hybrid designs: their diesel engines are always running at the most efficient level, and their momentum is provided entirely by electric motors. Tres spiffy.
"Wow. Now THAT'S a lot of angry Indians." - Lt. Col. George Armstrong Custer
...will probably not have a problem meeting or beating this record when it hits the streets. Its got a 255hp V6 that gets 37/29 mpg (highway/city). 2005 Honda Accord Hybrid info
The car at the starting point, gas engine reved up and getting louder, charging up the electric system...
A slight yellow glow enveloping the car...
Rocks and dirt flying up in a whirlwind around it...
Driver screaming SUPER HYBRID SPEED WAVE!!! and darting off in a cloud of dust...
Um... this car was Japanese right?
- Adam L. Beberg - The Cosm Project - http://www.mithral.com/
a mixture of 1.5 litre petrol engine and an electric motor.
The great thing with the hybrid cars slowly but surely replacing standard cars is that the rice boy scene is likely to disappear, which means no more bumblebee-like 4-banger revving at the red light, no more huge exhaust tip, no more huge hood scoop, and best of all, the full and complete ridiculing of anybody who keeps butchering grocery-getters that way.
And best of all, all these posers might actually stand a chance to get real perfs out of small engines like that with hybrids, with some simple electronic parts or battery swapping.
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
if you'd put it in neutral.
*ducks*
The difference between spam and poop is that you don't have to dig through septic tanks looking for real food. -- Me
Actually, that myth will likely be futher crushed with the release of a retrofittable hybrid electric vehicle kit, such as the one being developed by Ecolectric Technology (www.ecolectrictechnology.com). Then, you can take any vehicle, retrofit it to be hybrid electric, race it, and claim a new world record. The inherent increase in low-end torque (and thus acceleration) will probably make it as desirable a modification as turbochargers or superchargers on any performance vehicle.
A hybrid McLaren might be pretty nice if you as me...
Idiot moderator rated it offtopic. You can't get more on topic than this...
Might I be so bold as to ask...what did the emissions and fuel consumption look like while driving at 130mph?
You seem to be forgetting a very basic marketting effect: look at rally racing cars in europe these days: most cars entered are mom-and-pop 4-door sedans, or bargain basement 2-door econoboxes that are strategically souped up and modified for racing by the manufacturers themselves (if not simply a racing chassis with a fake body of the model in question).
That way, mom and pop's teenage son fresh out of getting the driver's license, and young adults, associate the shite econobox with the powerful race cars they see on TV and they buy it.
So guess what? hybrid manufacturers are doing the same. The least thing they want is for their vehicles to be associated with being a mature person's choice for economy and savings. So they race hybrids, even if it makes no sense, to make them sexy to young male drivers. Plain and simple.
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
130.794 mph should be more than enough for everybody.
(ooops....did I say that?)
The truth about Led Zep should never be told on
Another reason to get a Prius... I've ordered one last month and my dealer should have it by middle of January. I can't wait! Yeah!
But that's me.
You have two hands and one brain, so always code twice as much as you think!
You should check these guys out...
The drag race pure electric cars/motorcycles...
http://www.nedra.com/
Not true. See this previously posted article for more details.
I thought the electric motor only kicked in when you didn't need much power.
A stock Honda Accord Hybrid with 3.0L engine (255 HP) would fucking eat that. They won't even have to remove the interior, raise the voltage, or lower it 5 inches.
Saying Java is nice because it works on all OS's is like saying that anal sex is nice because it works on all genders.
Think of the nature. Either walk or bike. Otherwise we'll hit you.
In other news the new Toyota Priapus was the fastest sports car to pickup a chick.
The site http://www.mixedpower.com/ also has a similar story at http://www.mixedpower.com/modules.php?name=News&fi le=article&sid=279&mode=thread&order=1&thold=0 as well as additional information on hybrid vehicles.
It s worth looking around and checking out the forums as well.
Anyone driving a car without a good reason (for instance, he/she's single and in good health) should be fucking shot. The polluting cars should be reserved to mass transport and private transportation should be exclusively available to those who REALLY HAVE NO OTHER OPTIONS. If you can walk 2 km, no car for you.
acceleration off the line
I wonder what you mean by "off the line". The more powerfull gas engines are fully capable of spinning the tires for quite a distance down the road from a start. I don't think that a Hybrid is going to be able to beat a trans-am with a decent driver.
An electric car won't be able to accellerate any faster, as it's not the engine that's limiting acceleration, it's the tires.
I don't read AC A human right
But does it run linux?
Any car using internal combustion should be put under review and heavy environmental taxation these days.
I can see it now zipping across the salt flats, Dr. Banzai enables the overthruster and it's through the 8th dimension.
Make sure they check for Red Lectroids in the grill.
Does the marketing department have to defile everything an engineer creates?
Fucking moron.
I know I was certainly sold on the TL because of the power, and I could see going with a hybrid so long as the performance were there.
Jerry
http://www.syslog.org/
Because you just made her up?
Actually, all the articles I've ever read say that the battery *pack* (~100-200 D sized rechargeables) and motor add between 600 and 1000 pounds, depending on which car you're talking about. Furthermore, they said that the electric motor is there specifically for assisting the tiny engine during hard accels. They casually mention that it's also for maintaining speed while cruising so the engine can operate at most efficient RPM, and for regen braking, but they don't make as big a deal about that stuff.
The difference between spam and poop is that you don't have to dig through septic tanks looking for real food. -- Me
DO IT DO IT DO IT! What are ya waiting fer? Christmas?
The difference between spam and poop is that you don't have to dig through septic tanks looking for real food. -- Me
The best day to day itmems in America are made overseas! Who of slashdotters has a monitor made in USA?
Answer: NONE
Except that Ecolectric's product is vaporware, and their web site is full of unsubstantiated claims about performance / efficiency gains.
No, that is too easy and painless.
But I do agree that getting their genes out of the pool is essential.
The problem with racing hybrid vehicles is that those vehicles depend on assumptions for city driving to make their milage gains.
For highway driving, my standard gasoline engine actually gets better mpg than many hybrids. And it cost roughly 50% what a hybrid would of cost. Even at today's prices, that's alot of gas you have to save.
When you're racing, you're not doing stop and go. You might be able to make it work with a twisty enough track requiring large amounts of braking and making it tight enough on fuel that it becomes a conservation game.
But at high sustained speeds, direct gasoline power is more efficient.
I don't read AC A human right
The hybrids available today have acceleration times comparable to their class of vehicles they compete with.
I have one. I couldn't agree more. My first car was an old VW beetle. It was gutless. Driving in Maine was a challange. I would take a run at hills just to do the limit when I neared the top.
My old AMC Hornet was almost as bad, but with a bigger engine, it did better.
My last car was a 4 cyl Ford Mustang. (OK Mustang Wannabe) It could not keep speed up the hill to where I work a 6.5% grade.
My Toyota has the tightest regulated cruise control of any car I've owned. This applies to hills included. I drive to work with the cruise control set and it doesn't even slow down for the hill.
Passing on the freeway is no problem. If I'm doing 55 Mph and need to pass a truck, I just do it. If I'm not careful I'm pushing 70 in no time.
It's like haveing a second standby engine that kicks in when you need it.
The truth shall set you free!
I read another article about this, and they mentioned having to modify the computer settings so the engine would stay on with the brake pedal pressed at zero MPH. Why?
So they could hold the brake down to put it in regen mode and floor the gas to recharge the battery in a few minutes. This was because the battery was completely gone after each run. In fact, they had to put it in neutral and use a pusher car to get it up to speed (about 40, IIRC) so they could get decent top speed before the battery left.
The difference between spam and poop is that you don't have to dig through septic tanks looking for real food. -- Me
I was living in the States for a few months last year and was quite shocked to see how people would ride a car to a goddamned grocery store a few hundred feet away.
It has a 1500cc engine AND an electric motor, and it could only do 130? I've done 150 in a 1100cc car! No turbo or anything. 130 is pathetic.
Yea I know it has to carry all the extra weight of the electric motor / batteries, but these cars are supposed to be more efficient, right?
Not impressed.
Let's see how you can work "environment" vs. "safety"... it's just hopeless.
...I'm sure this record will easily be crushed by the new Honda Accord hybrid. 240 hp 3.0L engine, plus electric motor, does 0-60 in under 7 seconds IIRC. With the speed limiter removed (and no other mods like ice cooling, ferchrissake), I'll bet it does 150 mph easy.
Downmodding is the refuge of the weak. Don't downmod, make a better argument!
I think the car companies are full of it. These hybrids are nothing but expensive ways to showcase technlogical superiority. What do I mean? Well my roomate has a 1997? Jetta TDI. In the back of the window he has a big sign that says "50 MPG highway, 38 MPG city. Take your #$^& hybrid and drive off a cliff"! Most people don't beleive it. Last trip home over 1300 miles we got 52.3 mpg. He takes care of the car, keeps it tuned, and it runs clean. The REAL way to get better gas milegage isn't by using some fancy, impossible-to-service hybrid POS, but by building better cars and *gasp* ENGINEERING them better. Car companies just want people to think better gas mileage is impossible because then THEY DON"T HAVE TO DESIGN GOOD CARS and can charge more $$$ for "high technology fuel efficient vehicles". The time may come when hybrids are the way to increase fuel economy, but why not put more R&D budget into fuel cells or something.
Welcome to dullsville.
Did I miss something? I have a Prius. It has a very low center of gravity. It's weight balanced front to rear with the engine in front and gas and batteries in back. It's the zippiest curvy road car I've ever owned. Sneaking up on people in a parking lot is just loads of fun. My last car was a Ford Mustang. I prefer the Prius. It's more fun.
I got the loaded one. I like the NAV system and traction control.
The truth shall set you free!
1980 called. They want their meme back.
And with my 4 cylinder car, in the same scenario, if I'd likely be doing 90 before I'm past. It's a 1.8 liter DOHC engine. There's one hill in town that I have some trouble with, but it's no 6.5% grade, it's almost 30%. I just have to shift into fourth.
I don't read AC A human right
You are obviously American. Compared to something like a Ford Focus TDCi, the Prius feels like a beached whale thrashing around in treacle, and uses more fuel while doing it.
And it costs more.
And is uglier.
One of the UK motoring programs (5th gear) did an economy test of various cars and it did not do that well. You only get the benefit of the electric motor when in stop start traffic. Once moving the batteries are being charged and the petrol engine is being used. Round town as a shopping cart it was good, as a commuting vehicle it sucked.
...For the rest of the world, who yes - do read slashdot, the speed achieved is roughly 209.2704km/h. (n * 1.6)
I ate your fish.
Imagine how fast it would've been if the Prius had had a fart pipe, ridiculously oversized and useless fin, and Type-R sticker!
I will wait for the bus.
Peace.
"Of course, as a side note, the industry's approach to hybrid autos is flat out wrong."
I'll let them know at the next meeting.
It's funny because it's true.
The average US car drives 15000 miles per year, so, an SUV which gets 20 MPG would use 750 gallons of fuel per year. The Prius at 55 MPG would use 272 gallons a year, so it would take pretty much exactly 2 years or 30000 miles to save the entire manufacturing energy cost of the car, even with your unlikely assumption that the Prius was replacing a perfectly good vehicle that was being scrapped just to save energy. Replace a car which gets 35 MPG, it would take 6 years/90 000 miles to make a net energy advantage, which is still within its working lifetime, and obviously assumes that the car it replaces would last 6 years longer than it does.
Those who are interested in reading more about how the record attempt came about should go check out the write-up at Car and Driver.
d =4&article_id=8695
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_i
But kind of gas mileage did you get at 130 mph.
Dis car aint shit wifout 6ft wing, 9 inch fart pipes, neon underneaf.
Someone mentioned the Accord.
How about the rumored hybrid Eclipse and NSX? If those happen any time soon...
Let's check some data. Honda civic hybrid curb weight: 2675 honda civic conv. curb weight: 2560 From http://automobiles.honda.com/models/specifications _full_specs.asp?ModelName=Civic+Hybrid#
Added weight is less than most passengers.
A hybrid configuration acts as a low-pass filter
on the driving cycle power demands.
- Bart
This is kind of odd and I can see why they had to do some work to even get a hybrid catagory created. The Prius may have the record now but what is to stop someone from plopping a small battery and electric motor on their 500 mph bonneville speed demon and taking the record?? It would technically be a hybrid no? Now I imagine they could get very technical with all the rules to keep it fair for "standard" hybrid cars, maybe they could require a production rule? But it all seems a little silly anyway; the Prius was designed with efficiency as the primary goal, performance was secondary. I think a much more interesting contest would be a fuel efficiency/performance competition; set the cars loose on a race course, 50% of their score will be from their race time and 50% from their average fuel efficiency, you couldnt win the race without doing well in both.
I've driven one of these on a long drive, and I can attest to it's speed. I managed 170KPH on a steep uphill climb. Don't forget that an electric motor has FAR more torque than any gas engine, at least relative to the measured horsepower!
My Insight can go 115 mph. And this is stock without being stripped, having a roll cage, or any other modifications.
It has a 995 cc 3 cylinder gas engine putting out about 63 hp. In series it has a 13 hp electric engine. Because the 2 engines have different hp/rpm curves, it puts out 68 hp. But it only weighs 1850 pounds.
The car goes 0-60 in 10.5 seconds, has really good handling, and drives kind of like a go kart. The only real bad thing is there isn't much sound insulation, so there is a fair amount of road noise.
But even going 90 mph, it can still click off about 50 mpg. At 45 mph, you can get it into 'lean burn' mode and get a bit over 100 mpg.
It's a really good commuter car, has a lifetime mileage of 56 mpg (would be a lot higher if I drove a bit more conservatively and didn't live in a hilly area).
Also, there are some electric cars that go 0-60 in 3.6 seconds IIRC.
They tried setting a record with the Ford Escape Hybrid but it rolled over. The Insight mysteriously dissappeared after that incident, although a hunk of metal was discovered under the Escape.
This was in Car and Driver months ago. Although i must say it's definitely an interesting article, and anyone who doesn't subscribe to C/D probably wouldn't have heard of it. I dunno if it mentions it in THIS article, but the C/D article said they had that out of the 530+ classes of vehicle, they hadn't one for hybrids yet. it's stuff like "2 door pre 1949 coupe with ford flathead" and "2 door pre 1949 coupe with ford flathead, supercharged" are 2 different classes. :) The prius eventually got its own class though. Interesting anyhow :)
You like your new Mac more than you like me, don't you, Dave? Dave? I asked...She said Yes.
One of the things that always has me kinda scratching my head is why nobody's making a diesel hybrid.
It would seem that with diesel's natual tendancy towards lower engine RPMs (and with most diesel engines delivering peak torque around 2500 RPM), it would make a natural fit towards a design like Toyota's (generating power which is applied to the wheels by electric motors).
In fact, that is how railroad locomotives work.
Plus, there are all kinds of advantages to using a diesel engine, including the fact that the raw materials for diesel fuel need not just be petroleum.. diesel fuel has been engineered from coal and vegetable oil, and can theoretically (although I personally haven't seen practicle examples) be made from methane.
If VW can make a turbodiesel New Beetle that can average 40-50MPG out of just swapping the gasoline engine for a diesel one, what could they do if they engineered a smaller diesel + electric motor combo?
my understanding is gas turbine motors are far more efficent and can produce a lot of power for lower weight, the problem is their is a big power lag which is fine if you are running a generator but dangerous in a car. combining electric motors to remove this and this becomes less of an issue.
i would ask why they thought 130 was impressive though i bet most 1.5 arodynamic hot hatches could do that
Now if only someone would make one that's not UGLY *hugs his 2nd generation RX7*
I've had the same idea. If railroad trains and many seafaring vehicles are electric hybrids then why not road going vehicles? I wonder why we are not seeing semi tractors that are electric hybrids. Electric motors powered by a diesel driven generator are common and proven on all kinds of vehicles. I remember reading about a new train engine that had an improvement of something seemingly insignificant as 2% that was making the news as it could save shipping companies a significant amount in fuel. Why does this not translate into over the road shipping?
Firstly, I'd have to assume that should the batteries have no charge, the gasoline engine would kick in, defeating your "no impact" hypothesis. Similarly, I'd imagine that when you're out of gasoline, the electric would act as a failsafe. I haven't had the opportunity to test these out on a hybrid, but it certainly would make sense.
Secondly, using regenerative braking absolutely does improve milage. When you burn gas to move forward, that's energy spent. When you have to apply the real brakes, that's energy lost in friction. Regenerative braking, on the other hand, takes the kinetic energy of moving forward, and rather than simply throwing it away like a normal car, converts it into battery charge via the electric engine now acting as a generator. The important question is, how much energy from the gasoline is spent fighting air resistance, and how much is thrown away through braking? This quickly turns into a matter of distance per stop, with stop 'n' go traffic playing a larger role.
I Browse at +4 Flamebait
Open Source Sysadmin
Do you know how much an F1 car weighs? About a half ton.
Do you know how much horsepower an F1 car has, from a few litres displacement V10? 900hp...or more. Why is such staggering performance possible? Because simply put, gasolene has one of the highest energy capacities known to man aside from nuclear fuel. A cup of gasolene contains enough energy to lift 1 ton 1,000 feet in one second, if mixed with air at the right ratio.
There isn't a vehicle in the world except a funnycar that can go as fast- and a funny car can only do it about...ONCE, maybe twice; it pushes so much fuel and air into the engine that if it misses one combustion cycle in any one cylinder, it will hydrolock and explode on the next compression cycle. An F1 engine tears itself apart too, but it lasts (hopefully) a few hundred hours tops.
Watching an electric "F1" would be about as exciting as watching paint dry.
Please help metamoderate.
You can think of the environment like an investment vehicle: The payback is in the order of magnitude of lifetimes and isn't strictly monetary in value.
The question becomes then: What are you 'saving' when you buy a car that pollutes more? Essentially, what are your priorities?
My decision has, unfortunately, been decided by safety more than anything else. Cars are dangerous, so I will rate safety over environmentalism, but environmentally safe cars over performance.
That means Volvos >> Toyotas >> Chevrolets for me.
Except Volvos AREN'T cheaper, so it's not about saving money. It's about saving my life.
And Toyotas aren't cheaper than Chevrolets. It's not about saving my money, but saving my lungs (asthma and allergies).
It's tough too, since necessarily better cars are more expensive cars.
GPL Deconstructed
You get 27.7 mpg with your Phaeton V10 Tdi.
If it were a hybrid diesel you'd get 45+mpg.
That's the frenzy.
So if you take a Japanese car that would normally get 30mpg and make it a hybrid, you now get a car that gets 55mpg.
GPL Deconstructed
LA or San Jose for example, "around town" can mean over 100 miles as the bay area or Los Angeles area are essentially one giant city with freeways interspersed.
It may not be like that in the UK, I wouldn't know, but commuting here means 11 miles in 35 minutes on a freeway (that's about 20 miles an hour, perfect for a hybrid) of stop and go traffic.
GPL Deconstructed
Since when do we call gasoline petrol? Just wondering. I thought maybe 1700's were just a bad dream.....
Worst thing about Prius is that you can only reload the battery for electric motor by running the petrol engine which, needless to say, nullifies the entire point of having an electric engine.
Of course from what I've read that doesn't yet make even a decent car out of it but it wouldn't be a total disaster then.
And i can confirm that in Colorado at least every other gas station has diesel.
I have to watch carefully because here diesel has a green pump handle and unleaded is black - opposite from the uk.
As was noted before, this story was in Car&Driver a while ago. Turns out they had to push the Prius to 60 or so MPH in order for the batteries to keep working through the measured mile at 130 MPH.
Which brings up another aspect of energy as relates to racing. 20 years ago the premier sports car racing class was called Group C, in which there were *NO* engine rules beyond being given a certain amount of fuel for each race.
At the time, Porsche was the big winner because of its turbocharged/intercooled cars. Now I imagine someone could make some headway with a hybrid approach that avoided throwing so much energy away as heat from braking.
If all you could store was the energy from a single 200-60 MPH deceleration, the advantage would be tremendous.
Slightly off topic, but since we're on the subject of hybrids: I'd like to understand why manufacturers keep coming out with hybrid SUV's, but not hybrid minivans.
I migth need a minivan in the coming future, shopped around for an hybrid one, but the only answer I get is "we don't have a minivan, but we're coming out with an SUV".
It seems to me that an hybrid minivan would make more sense, no ? People who buy SUV's buy a status ticket, they get a big car with a big engine that they can brag about, so why would they care about fuel economy. On the other hand, the only reason to buy a minivan is the practicalside of it, so adding better fuel economy to it would be a huge advantage over the other brands.
Am I confused here ??
Anything that can be done to a normal car to make it more efficient can be done to a hybrid to make it more efficient. Toyota make the some of the most efficient gasoline cars in the world---their Prius is right in line with their high standard of engineering (IIRC, Toyota has the highest number of cars/trucks with greater than 30mpg).
Comparing a Diesel car to a hybrid is slightly apples to oranges. (Diesel engies are more efficient that spark engines for various reasons, so yes, you're buddy's Jetta does fare reasonably well against a Prius, but that's only because the Prius is still running a spark engine). If VW went and designed a Diesel hybrid, it would smoke your buddy's Jetta for mileage. Here's why: a normal car with a reciprocating engine can only get at most 20% efficiency. A hybrid scheme allows you to design the engine to a lower power output and only run it at its optimum power output (to get more you run engine+motor, to get less you just run motor, you design the charger such that the engine runs at optimum power output). So, you can get 30% efficiency out of the reciprocating engine or a little more. So, a Diesel hybrid against a normal Diesel would get the better mileage.
Hybrid technology is not stupid. QED.
Jeff
>It 'set the mark at 130.794 mph on the three-mile >short course using a standard Hybrid Synergy Drive >power-train - a mixture of 1.5 litre petrol engine >and an electric motor.'"
sigh...I wonder when will the US go metric and stop mixing S.I units with US customary . Miles and litres don't go along very well, you know?
In "real" speed, that is about 210 km/h in a 5 km course.(kph=wrong!).
Hybrid cars are hubris. If you are concerned about polution, using LPG (Liquid Petrol Gas, a mix of propane and butane) is way better. The fuel economy is somewhat less than petrol, depending on the exact mixture (propane contains less energy than butane). The technology is also very safe and reliable.
If you are concerned about fuel economy, then modern diesel engines are equal or better to a Prius motor. Buying an engine with less power also helps.
Neither solution has the disadvantages of the extra weight, the extra cost and the extra complexity of a hybrid car. Don't forget that producing cars causes polution and costs energy too.
I don't get it, what's the point?
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
thats what everyone seems to care about. Unfortanetely, I'm only less safe in my tiny car because of those assholes in their larger ones. Of course, if everyone gets SUVs, then some assholes will get even larger vehicles and the bullshit will start again.
Diesel/electric hybrids are not used in freight locomotives for efficiency reasons. A diesel engine at constant RPM turning the wheels is actually more efficient than a diesel/electric, because there's less conversion of energy.
The issue is that a diesel engine would need a transmission of ridiculous size to get a freight train rolling. The form factor a freight train essentially makes this impossible - not to mention that the mechanical wear issues and heat output of such a system would be as absurd as the size of thing.
So, there you have it, freight trains are diesel/electric to assist in acceleration, not for efficiency at cruising speed.
So, why not do it for trucks? Very large haul trucks, like those used in the mining industry, are in fact diesel/electric. This is for the same reason as for freight trains - the practicality of the drivetrain.
Standard freight-hauling trucks wouldn't have much to gain from this, since their transmissions are of managable size. They do have about 18 gear ratios though, and this tells you that they're pretty close to the reasonable maximum size. A hybrid truck would accelerate smoothly and somewhat more efficiently, and would stress the diesel engine a fair bit less. But it would be less efficient for long-range cruising.
....for a certain value of 'truck', maybe.
I used to drive a seven and a half ton truck. It was 8 feet wide and thirteen feet tall and 'powered' by a six litre normally aspirated diesel. That thing had the drag factor of a parachute, 'cruising' was accomplished at 60mph on the flat with full throttle. It accelerated to about 20mph ok though.
They whose government reduces their essential liberties for temporary security, receive neither liberty nor security.
I can hardly wait until there are more electric vehicles around and being crashed. Please god, let the manufacturers build the motors into the wheel hubs!
Why? Because then we can then power old(broken) cars with newer electric axles, running from car batteries when passing emissions inspections, and running from generators the rest of the time. When the generator dies it will be much easier to swap than a 'normal' car engine as it doesn't need to fit the transmission, have a fancy engine management system etc. Wiring is easier to do than gearcutting.
They whose government reduces their essential liberties for temporary security, receive neither liberty nor security.
Everything I've read on slashdot will have you belive these hybrids are clean and green. And they are on the surface... But what your NOT told about is when it comes to disposing of those batteries and replacing them. It's bad enough seeing standard lead acid car batteries being illigally dumped, but can you imagine if everyone started driving hybrids?
e r11/jasperplots-124.html
Look folks, even if you could centrally recycle and administer these batteries, your still having to deal with the chemical pollution they cause themselves in regards to manufacturing and servicing. At this point, why not use bio-fuels such as diesel and E85? We all know that the Sun UV rays will break up these gassious compounds in the upper atmosphere and simple CO2 will reused by mother nature is some form and fassion. At the worst, will just get quicker growing plant life...as alreadying being recording.
Just to be fair though, I see studies reporting both positive and negitive impacts of high CO2 levels on plant life. So I guess the jury is still out on this one.
http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/001938.html
http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2002/decemb
Life is not for the lazy.
I can see claiming that the public wants big cars and trucks. I can't see claiming that they want them to be gas guzzlers. If two vehicles are in all respects identical but one of them uses half the gas, people will flock to that one.
congratulations on another fine first post.
Your work is appreciated here, despite the negative moderations - please dont give up in despair!!!
Toyota is taking people the wrong way. GM has the right idea with the new hydrogen cars in the US (Washington Post had a story on it recently). Once again the US will lead the world into the new economy. The Japanese will then take the hard work and make lots of money on it, stealing the technology. Bummer.
What happens to the batteries?
Are they biodegradable batteries?
Diesels can too do a cold start. You do not need to run the glow plugs continuously either. My dad had a 1962 Mercedes 190D many, many years ago. Quite a primitive diesel car by today's standards. The glow plugs were not needed to start the engine if ambient temps were above 60 deg F. Even when it was cold you only needed to run the glow plugs for about 3 seconds to start the engine.
It was all in the interest of Science.
From, ahem, personal experience, I can attest that a normal Prius' maximum speed (on a relatively flat highway) is about 104 miles per hour. This was with the accelerator floored and the car given time enough time to accelerate to its maximum speed.
Now I've only done this once, but it was fun. And I routinely drive in the 75 - 90 mph range.
So the fact that they have somehow coaxed an extra 1/3 power out of the same drive train is exciting news (even if they did strip things down on the weight side.) Listen, every record was originally set by one contestant. I'm guessing this "record" is gonna get smashed faster than watermelon at a Gallagher concert.
And now here's a quick plug -- my Prius is awesome. I love it. Awesome, awesome, awesome. Acceleration isn't sports car quality, but it's better than the perfectly acceptable 1994 Mercury Sable I drove previously, which had better pick up than the beat up old hand-me-down minivan I drove prior to the Sable. I drive on the vicious highways and streets of Washington, DC and I have never had a problem with my Prius.
Am I the only one who finds this test completely useless? Ferrari and Porsche stopped fighting for the fastest car title becuase it turned out to be extremely expensive and it does not prove anything, except for the fact that a car can reach a certain speed. How many of you do go above 85 mph on a frequent basis? What about over 100mph? Even if your car can go 150mph, how many times do you go that fast? As far as I know, only several states in the United States have roads without speed limit...
If any car company wants to make a better hybrid vehicles, they should focus on things like:
Cost. Currently, Honda Civic Hybrids start at around $20K, while the Accord Hybrid is pushing $29K. Why bother buying that if you can get a Honda S2000 or a 350Z for less money. If you do not like sporty cars, you can still buy cheaper sedans and coupes. There are Subarus, regular Hondas and Toyotas that can do what hybrids do for much less. It is silly to market a $29K Accord Hybrid as a fast car. If had $29K to spend on a fast car, I would not look at Accords to begin with:)
Looks. My hats go off to Honda for this company managed to make a hybrid car without totally molesting its looks. Hybrid Civics and Accord look no different than their standard versions; that is a good thing because the standard models look nice for the money. I guess Ford can be in that league too because its hybrid SUV looks like a normal small SUV. On the other hand, Toyota engineers should stop drinking bong water because so far their hybrids looked like outtakes from bad cartoons. Small wheels, ugly fronts and rears combined with ridiculous ergonomics inside make me want to puke.... Now, this is just my personal opinion and yours may be different. However, if I spend $20K on a car, I expect it to look somewhat nice in and out.
Useful specs. I can care less about the top speed. As far as I know, in Massachusetts I can't go above 90mph without being arrested. I am more interested in 0-60, cornerning and stopping abilities along with certain safety features. So far, Honda Accord looks like a good choice for a faster sedan. However, the performance comes with a price tags: for $2K more, you can get a brand new Subaru WRX STi which in my opinion is a much better option for a performance oriented driver who wants a sedan. Although hybrids seem to catch up in this category, they are not truly there. If I lived in a region that required even more attention to the road -- think mountains or places with harsh conditions -- I would completely rule out hybrids for now.
More models and trims. As somebody who belives in alternatives to gas, I would get hybrid. However, it seems that no hybrid models are made in order to appeal to males in mid-20s. I went through all available hybrid models and so far I found none that I liked. Accord was the closest choice; however, it lacked manual transmission :( To be honest with you, I do not know who is the "audience" for hybrids nowadays... It is definitely not single moms or people with tight budgets or performance oriented freaks. The choices are limited in terms of models, trims and additional features. Despite whatever I say about Toyota Prius I think that it was a great idea to make a separate hybrid model. IMO, Toyota fucked it up, but nothing in this world is done without mistakes. I think that companies should make hybrid versions of existing cars along with introducing new hybrid-only models in order to bring more diversity and attract more buyers. I know that waiting lists for hybrid cars are long, but they can be much much longer!
Gas is still cheap. When I wanted to get a reliable gas sipper, I got a used Honda Civic. The car cost me $4K and it gets around 35mpg. I fill up once in two weeks on average and it costs me around $16 to do so. Wow! All that for $4K. I do admit, that I am thinking of getting a different car because this one is too slow. I talked to my friends who drive BMWs and watched forums
You can think of the environment like an investment vehicle: The payback is in the order of magnitude of lifetimes and isn't strictly monetary in value.
I wasn't talking about myself. I was talking about the "average american". Add in that most people want a return on their investment in less than 30 years, more usually 10-15, and you can see why I made my statement.
And while the "average american" might not care much for the enviroment, safety is a definate concern.
Yes, I have allergies too. I'd love to see less pollution.
It's tough too, since necessarily better cars are more expensive cars.
Not necessarily true. It depends on how you define a "better car". You do have more options as your budget goes up, though.
Do you see where my statement that Hybrids won't take off with the middle class until it will save them money comes from? Until the sticker price comes close enough to that of the traditional option that a dealer can sit down with them an show them that they'll save money or break even with that option, it will be difficult to get the mainstream to adopt it.
I don't read AC A human right
A nice example of modern Diesel engineering is the VW Phaeton V10 Tdi. It has 313 HP and, while officially electronically limited to 250 kph (155 mph), was tested at over 290 kph (180 mph) when it was released one year ago. It does 0-100 kph (0-62 mph) in 6.9 seconds (not too shabby for a 3 metric ton car). And yet, it still gets 27.7 mpg.
You can actually get that engine in the 45-state legal version of the Volkswage Touraeg SUV sold in the USA.
But let's see how long before someone designs a race car around this V-10 turbodiesel engine and takes the car to 350 km/h (217 mph). =)
The point about racing is to go faster than one's opponents where all participants adhere to a set of rules governing allowable technology. The general point about hybrid technology is to conserve fuel. Well, how about a racing circuit that combines these two concepts but allows the participants to use any technology, as long as it saves fuel?
This is exactly what F1 used to do about 10-15 years ago (I don't know when they dropped this rule, but I'm fairly certain it's not in place any more), where there was a set amount of fuel for each car on each race. Now, the quantities worked out to about 2-3mpg IIRC, but nonetheless, the teams had to develop technologies that allowed them to go fast without running out of fuel.
Well, why can't we have a racing circuit that severely limits the fuel one can use to complete the race, to a point where it could truly require the development of meaningful efficiencies. Perhaps there could be different classes, one that gives drivers one gallon for every ten miles of race distance, one that requires 20mpg, etc. Clearly, the average speeds would go down, but the excitement would be in the strategies each team employed. It would be very interesting to see how hybrid technology competes in this kind of racing, and if it truly beats out other types of fuel-saving technology. This would lead to the fulfillment of racing's often-stated justification (and the supposed reason that automobile companies spend so much on it) that racing drives technological improvements that end up in the cars we buy.
Why do we need to buy 300hp cars anyway? And why 350? The answer is that we've been convinced that because the other guy has a car that can do 0-60 in 4.6 sec, you need one that can do it in 4.5 sec! You know, back in the 80's, those numbers were more like 9 and 10 seconds, and people were just as happy (if you had the 9 sec car, that is). The point I'm making is that the market left to its own devices will give us more and more power at less and less efficiency, and condition us to think we need it. If the pre-eminent racing leagues in the world showcased speed AND efficiency, perhaps we'd return to a time when the car manufacturers would be bragging about mpg a little more and hp a little less, to the benefit of the whole world.
I don't think I agree that Hybrids won't take off with the middle class until it will save them money. The middle class buys lots of things that don't save them money.
:)
I do agree that hybrids will be more successful when the hybrid premium goes down close to a regular car, though. But that's just a case of sticker shock; all cars have more or less expensive prices and therefore different classes of consumers.
There's another point where hybrids will become more attractive to consumers: When the eletric motor is used to improve performance without sacrificing mileage. See the 30mpg Hybrid Accord, the electric motor is used to boost acceleration that would not normally be available.
When you start seeing Ford Mustangs with 20hp electric motors to give you 0-60 times of 4 seconds, then we'll see a boost in hybrids
GPL Deconstructed
He said hybrid. So you still can use hydrocarbons, and as you pointed out, hydrocarbons are where the fun is.
The problem I see is it'll be hard to get a bank of fuel cells that can convert hydrocarbons to 300-500kW of electricity AND be light AND compact AND take the stresses of a race.
But that could be a worthwhile and interesting engineering challenge...
Right now, the F1 organizers are already intentionally slowing down the F1 cars with new rules every now and then.
Maybe you'd prefer the statement "As currently marketed, hybrid cars won't take off until the price drops."
I doubt a 20hp electric would make much of a difference in a 300 hp mustang. The IMA of the honda civic shows an 8 HP boost, for an 85 HP engine. The accord, as best as I can tell, gives 15HP, out of 240.
I don't read AC A human right
Well duh. I would swap all the engineering of driveshafts and constant velocity joints for increased unsprung mass any day. Put some balloon tires on to protect the motors and put up with the roll. Most drivers come to a virtual standstill to corner anyway, the racers like me will be laughing as we boing and slide around the bends.
They whose government reduces their essential liberties for temporary security, receive neither liberty nor security.
It's all about where in the powerband that 20hp boost occurs.
If the 20hp is available (as it is in eletric motors) at the initial acceleration, that's the difference between 20hp at 0rpm vs 0hp at 0rpm.
But we shall see how the Hybrid Accord is received and if the Ricers have a field day with it's performance. Nothing is stopping them from plunking this IMA setup into a Civic!
GPL Deconstructed
doing some research would have been nice.
summary: a very efficient scheme is to use a 2-stroke diesel engine that runs at constant rpm and powers an electric motor (akkus would be a bonus).
The scheme does indeed have drawbacks - like requiring a turbo/super-charger.
I won't argue that we desparately need them, but we are definitely not pushing, more like a gentle, sporatic, resentful nudge. I'm not trying to sound paranoid (and not succeeding), but Big Oil and the Big Three don't want hydrocarbons to go away anytime soon, since it is death for Big Oil, and a big inconvience to the Big Three, since car costs can't go up too fast, and LiIon Bateries are expensive.
I read an article awhile back (a couple of months ago) about the Toyota people doing a motocross race treatment on a Prius. Once the thing is floored, the batteries last for about 2 miles, or one lap, then the thing relies on the wimpy gas engine alone. Hybreds will never be race cars, since they get their electric power from stopping, which one generally tries not to do in racing, and the batteries discharge when you accelerate, which you are always trying to do in racing.
Firstly, automotive engineers are paid to think about all possible cases, even ones that are unfavorable such as running out of gas or driving into a tree. Most engineers I know would consider it a design defect should a hybrid car refuse to turn on a gas motor when the batteries failed, reguardless of how likely that scenario is. But this is generally a moot point.
I think you misinterpreted my other statement. What I mean is that a significant amount of energy is spent fighting air resistance just to keep at the current speed. The faster you go, and the longer you maintain that speed, the more energy is spent moving air, which regenerative braking won't bring back. Regenerative braking only works on kinetic engergy that would otherwise be discarded. You might say that its about as useful as coasting to a stop, but does the job much quicker (and with a significant loss in efficinecy). There's also some minor gains from regenerating energy that came from regenerative braking already, but I can't tell if that's already factored into recovery statistics or not.
Of course, speed and accelleration will always play a significant factor in the performance of a system like this. My roommate was in shock over just how much more energy it would take to move their car up from 50 to 55 mph. I certainly wonder how the leadfooted driver would perform comparitively. After all, its not exactly going to help fuel efficiency in a normal car either.
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Open Source Sysadmin
The scheme does indeed have drawbacks - like requiring a turbo/super-charger.
Where did you ever get the idea that diesel engines require turbochargers?
Already done my friend... Corvette with 6.2L diesel engine claimed to be getting 48 mpg.
http://www.thedieselpage.com/readers/vet.htm
I'm a Hybrid owner (Civic) and I just want a car that will get me around on as little gas as possible, looks good and has plenty of storage space. I don't normally care about how fast my car is able to go, but I always want to know that my car CAN get me somewhere fast if the need should arise. 130MPH is just a little over the top, but I've hit 90MPH before and I'm sure the car could handle another 10 which is more than enough speed for me.
They're now making diesel hybrids, anyway. As well as plug-in hybrids, allowing you to plug in and charge the battery overnight, which is not a big modification, and results in a car which can run almost always run on electric-only, for city use. Diesel hybrids can by modified to run on used kitchen grease, like the Google bus, so you'll get a used-kitchen-grease-hybrid-electric, which runs for nearly $0/mile, nearly no pollutants, and gets high mileage per gallon, to boot. I never had a car, at 38. At first for principle, but I really do prefer walking now, when possible. Living in in New York, or San Francisco, I used walk out of the subway and past the grocery anyway, and just buy whatever I wanted. Or just walk a block back and get it. Easier than driving, in fact! Here in Brazil, I do the same, but it's two blocks.
Build your own energy sources from scratch. http://otherpower.com/
The record means nothing to me, as there were so many things done to the Prius that it's not a Prius any more. Don't expect any Prius you buy to be capable of 210 km/h.
Is the Prius actually a hybrid car, anyway? Doesn't all the energy to drive it come from the petrol in the tank?
Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.