Slashdot Mirror

1. ftp://ftp1.netscape.com/pub/netscape6

   ftp://ftp2.netscape.com/pub/netscape6

   ftp://ftp3.netscape.com/pub/netscape6

   ftp://ftp4.netscape.com/pub/netscape6

   ftp://ftp5.netscape.com/pub/netscape6

   ftp://ftp6.netscape.com/pub/netscape6

   ftp://ftp7.netscape.com/pub/netscape6

   ftp://ftp8.netscape.com/pub/netscape6

   FTP sites for Netscape above ftp8 exist -- I'm using ftp13 now -- Netscape recommends ftp1 to ftp8.

1. ftp://ftp1.netscape.com/pub/netscape6

   ftp://ftp2.netscape.com/pub/netscape6

   ftp://ftp3.netscape.com/pub/netscape6

   ftp://ftp4.netscape.com/pub/netscape6

   ftp://ftp5.netscape.com/pub/netscape6

   ftp://ftp6.netscape.com/pub/netscape6

   ftp://ftp7.netscape.com/pub/netscape6

   ftp://ftp8.netscape.com/pub/netscape6

   FTP sites for Netscape above ftp8 exist -- I'm using ftp13 now -- Netscape recommends ftp1 to ftp8.

1. ftp://ftp1.netscape.com/pub/netscape6

   ftp://ftp2.netscape.com/pub/netscape6

   ftp://ftp3.netscape.com/pub/netscape6

   ftp://ftp4.netscape.com/pub/netscape6

   ftp://ftp5.netscape.com/pub/netscape6

   ftp://ftp6.netscape.com/pub/netscape6

   ftp://ftp7.netscape.com/pub/netscape6

   ftp://ftp8.netscape.com/pub/netscape6

   FTP sites for Netscape above ftp8 exist -- I'm using ftp13 now -- Netscape recommends ftp1 to ftp8.

1. ftp://ftp1.netscape.com/pub/netscape6

   ftp://ftp2.netscape.com/pub/netscape6

   ftp://ftp3.netscape.com/pub/netscape6

   ftp://ftp4.netscape.com/pub/netscape6

   ftp://ftp5.netscape.com/pub/netscape6

   ftp://ftp6.netscape.com/pub/netscape6

   ftp://ftp7.netscape.com/pub/netscape6

   ftp://ftp8.netscape.com/pub/netscape6

   FTP sites for Netscape above ftp8 exist -- I'm using ftp13 now -- Netscape recommends ftp1 to ftp8.

1. ftp://ftp1.netscape.com/pub/netscape6

   ftp://ftp2.netscape.com/pub/netscape6

   ftp://ftp3.netscape.com/pub/netscape6

   ftp://ftp4.netscape.com/pub/netscape6

   ftp://ftp5.netscape.com/pub/netscape6

   ftp://ftp6.netscape.com/pub/netscape6

   ftp://ftp7.netscape.com/pub/netscape6

   ftp://ftp8.netscape.com/pub/netscape6

   FTP sites for Netscape above ftp8 exist -- I'm using ftp13 now -- Netscape recommends ftp1 to ftp8.

With this and the cookie bug, Netscape seems to be in quite the large hole. I've seen a lot of reports about Mozilla and previous netscape version exploits, and the publicity has been nothing been bad for the past few years. With decreasing market share and profitability at a minimum, I wonder about Netscapes future. While Sun and AOL have continued to be profitable and progressive, Netscape has been the slow brother. More then anything, a lose of faith and hope for Netscape has all but disappeared and the company I once saw as the solution to the Microsoft monopoly has been slain with nothing but their own laziness and bad decisions. By focusing on their web portal and ignoring their browser, they consequently lost their hold on the browser market that they always believed they'd have.

I know this might be offtopic, but I feel it has to be addressed. Netscape, in my view, wouldn't have survived without the merger with AOL and Sun. Some of us may still hold hopes for Netscape, but for me... my hopes are but dust in the wind

I *thought* I had seen some bastardized HTML tag which achieved the same effect as a 1x1 transparent GIF... the SPACER tag. Introduced in Netscape 3. I can only assume that IE doesn't support this, and that CSS makes the whole thing moot anyway. But if that can eliminate the need for 1x1 transparent GIFs for layout, then we can safely block such.

Of course I was talking about Netscape 6 beta1. But that is how all the netscape 6+ browsers are planning on working. The nightlies don't include such features for many seperate reasons (mainly simplicity as there is a new one almost everyday) Just for fun download the netscape 6 beta1 installer from
link

You don't nessesarly need to try the browser itself (it sucked) but the idea of the installer is that you can choose how much of the kitched sink you download. Atleast the windows english version, I think the linux version was the complete thing though.

From their web site:

platform version
Win 3.1 4.08
Win 9x, NT 4.08
Mac 68k 4.03
Mac PPC 4.08
AIX 3 3.04
AIX 4 4.08
AIX 4.1 4.74
AIX 4.2 4.74
BSD 2.1 3.04
BSDI 2.0 4.74
Digital Unix 3.2 4.04
FreeBSD 2.2 4.74
...

I'm actually not going to type them all in, but suffice it to say that not everyone has the choice to use the most current version of Navigator... Some of us (windows and mac) users need to use the full Communicator...

I disagree. If music companies can sue Napster for providing a service, then what's going to stop anyone from suing a company that makes any kind of client.
For example, lets take Hotline Communications Inc.. Their client/server suit can also used to download MP3's. It is also used to get plenty of other legal media. Does that mean we should shut it down because users of the server are breaking laws?
Perhaps companies should sue Netscape because people browsing the net can ALSO download MP3's. Wait! We could sue people who develop FTP daemons as well! People can use FTP to transfer MP3's!
The whole idea is wrong. Software manufacturers should not get in this much trouble because the end user abuses their product. Even if it was meant to be used that way.

In otherwords, be businessmen.

It appears the corporate establishment types are so concerned about real money going into the hands of young guys with an attitude that they would rather subject the Internet community to unnecessary risks, and their stockholders to violations of their fiduciary trust than pay the grey hats what they are worth.

For example, Dan Brumleve, the developer of DBarter (which won the Hackers Conference prize for "best work in progress" last year) was quite young when he discovered his first Netscape exploit Tracker. Netscape subsequently gave credit for finding the "Tracker" hole to a guy from Bell Labs. Their excuse for doing this was that they already knew about the Tracker exploit, having been told of it by Bell Labs -- an act that might have been rational if the Bell Labs exploit had been the one posted to Dan's web site. The problem was, Dan's exploit still functioned under the Netscape's fix to the Bell Labs exploit.

Dan has documented the behavior of corporate establishment types in this fiasco.

Inspired by such wisdom from corporate establishment wisdom, Dan went on to discover and publish other exploits.

At no time was Dan offered more money by Netscape than he was making as an independent contractor hacking Perl scripts for e-commerce web sites, although Dan did ask for such compensation.

Each time Dan published one of his exploits, Netscape stock went down 5%, and some of Dans friends made some money shorting Netscape on advanced knowledge of these exploits before Netscape was finally bought out by AOL.

OK, Dan's exploits may not have caused the Netscape stock price drops (though, try telling that to the guys who made money assuming they did). But even so, this attitude toward grey hats, that controlling them by legislating against them, is going to drive them underground. Society has "punkified" a lot of these young men already so threatening them with prisoner gang rape isn't going to twist their heads around that much -- aside from being a morally reprehensible, not to mention unconstitutional, way of dealing with any problem.

Mozilla is open source. Mozilla will form the basis of Netscape 6, which will contain other non-Free code. The difference is easy to see; download the Netscape 6 Preview Release and then download M16. The difference is mostly packaging and marketing, but it's a clear insight into the future of Mozilla; Mozilla will always be a fully capable browser, but Netscape 6 is the preferred option for non-technical users.

--

First off, I don't think the MSNBC columnist was saying they WERE in Romania. He said their registration data SAID they were in Romania, which, based on the name "South Ural", was pretty unlikely.

(I did check to see if there was a city like "Ural" in Romania, anyway. Mapquest says no.)

Second, it could be his confusion (or somebody else's along the line) between RUssia and ROmania (whose local name is RUmania). I've see people assume RU = Rumania all the time. Two letter country codes are easy to confuse.

Third, what Russian or Rumanian would use the English word "South" in their city name anyway? If they really lived there they would have registered it as "Yuzhniyuralsk" or something like that. No, this registration address info is about as bogus as saying "123 Easy St., Anywhere, USA".
----

W3C is not always too slow. Take CSS (Cascading Style Sheets). How many browsers even implement CSS2, never mind extending it?

I think I'm running into this problem right now with a website that I'm reworking to be more standards-compliant. (It was originally created with frames for formatting and lots of text-containing graphics with no ALT tags. Browsing it with Lynx shows just how woefully deficient it is.) I have a reworked (but still not finished) main page up (if you want to see what I'm doing, check out http://salfter.dyndn s.org/www.thejewelers.com/index-html4.html that works fine in IE 5.01, but Navigator 4.7 completely ignores the associated CSS positioning info. W3C's HTML and CSS validators say the page is OK, and some other HTML validators (such as NetMechanic and even the Netscape-controlled Web Site Garage) have said the same thing. Web Site Garage's browser-compatibility check even said the design was OK for Navigator 4.x. Actually viewing it with the different browsers says something different.

(Just got Mozilla M16 installed under Win98...it renders things a little differently than IE, but it's comparable to IE. Much better than Navigator 4.7. I tried installing Mozilla under Linux to get it running on the metal instead of under VMware (which is where I run Win98 and IE), but the installer segfaulted. The box is a 450-MHz K6-III with 256 megs of RAM and SuSE Linux 6.3, which ought to be enough to run anything.)

_/_
/ v \
(IIGS( Scott Alfter (remove Voyager's hull # to send mail)
\_^_/

What browser is that supposed to work on?

That's JavaScript 1.3. "===" is the new "strict equality operator". I think JavaScript 1.3 is used by the later 4.x Netscape browsers.

[BTW, it is kind of an old joke. Say, has anyone visited that FTP site at localhost.localhost.com? Log in with your current username and password. They've got an awesome selection, but unfortunately, I already got what they had available.]

Of course, it isn't TOO LATE for this to happen, but there better be a central keyword registry or Netscape and Microsoft will fight with registries of their own. Fun fun fun.

You mean like Netscape's Internet Keywords and RealNames'/Microsoft's Internet Keywords? (M$ owns 20% of RN.) And, of course, AOL's keywords.

-j

Hey... is there any site that has pictures of the event?


kick some CAD on my.netscape.com

Moderators, please forgive me for veering offtopic, but this lad needs to be enlightened.

There are several alternative browsers on the market. They're all maturing slowly and some have even got features that Exploder doesn't already, despite Micro$oft's corporate feature bloating.

Konquerer, part of the KDE Project, is another good example of an underdog browser that's starting to take hold in the market. It's support for standards which make a viable browser are almost unmatched at the moment (in the alternative browser market).

Xemacs has a Browser called W3. It supports the majority of standards that make a viable Browser, and is written in Elisp, thus compatible with the Xemacs editor.

Of course, we can't forget Mozilla. It's the open-source version of Netscape 5. Probably the best browser out at the moment aside from Exploder/Win32, it runs on many platforms and is the most likely browser to take over the Exploder market share. It already enjoys a large market share in the UNIX world, just under that of Netscape 4.x. This thing supports nearly everything, including Alpha channels. Watch out for it.

Netscape implements "the original" server push using MIME multipart (see http://www1.netscape.com/as sist/net_sites/pushpull.html, section about server push). Even though no other client understands it, plugins or applets can just use the same protocol for this purpose, and it's possible to make server use internal support for it when the client understands it.

I use this in my webcam and X-10 devices control form -- compare form without server push (you have to press "Send" to get the updated status) and the same form with server push -- if you use Netscape (or recent builds of Mozilla), every change in the state of devices causes form to be updated at the time when it happened, and if some command is sent, first response represents the status after command is received (but not executed yet -- X-10 is slow), then after some time (can be half a second for simple on/off or few seconds for brightness change) when command is sent and confirmed, status updates using the server push. If someone else (or the same user from another browser, or me using "physical" control panel) sends some commands, status updates by itself without any interaction with the user or requests sent by a browser.

I think ESR means well, but that RMS is sadly right. Without things such as the copyleft, giant soulless corporations will steal anything that's not bolted down. It's a shame that people have to be forced into playing nice, but that's the way the world is.

At least you'll be assured your data is gaurded, I suppose

---

Personally, I wouldn't want to make my living off of the free software I write. I think it would create too much of a conflict of interest for me. It would be nice, though, if there was a better way to encourage (voluntary) profits for free software developers. Right now, at least, "libre" == "gratis".

When I invented the precursor to Postscript (an audacious claim that I can back up -- it started as a replacement for NAPLPS which I proposed while Manager of Interactive Architectures for Viewdata Corp of America back in November of 1981 -- the Xerox PARC guys found my approach of what they called a "tokenized Forth" communication protocol to be an intriguing way to encode text and graphics), I was interested in having a Forth virtual machine migrate into silicon (ala Novix) so it could evolve from mere graphics rendering into a distributed Smalltalk VM environment (ala Squeak) as videotex terminal/personal computer capacities increased. But I was _not_ interested in object-oriented programming as the long-term semantics of distributed programming environments. (I still have some of the hardcopy of the communiques with Xerox PARC and others from this period.)

Rather, relational semantics were what I saw as the ultimate direction for distributed programming. I had a bit of a go at Tony Hoare's "communicating sequential processes" paradigm and its Transputer realization because he was, at least, starting with the hard problem of parallelism rather than making like the drunk looking for his keys under the light post the way everyone else seemed to be doing (and still are, save for Mozart, since threads, etc. are always an afterthought). But, because there were other hard problems like abstraction, transactions and persistence that he ignored, I christened his approach "Occam's Chainsaw Massacre" in my communiques (in honor of his distributed programming language "Occam") and dropped it in favor of relational programming, which has inherent parallelism resulting from both dependency and indeterminacy. (BTW: Dr. Hoare seems to have finally come to his senses about this issue.)

Unfortunately, the only researcher doing hardcore work on relational programming (meaning, getting to the root of relational semantics in a way that Codd had failed to do) at the time was Bruce MacLennan, then, of The Naval Postgraduate School, and he just didn't have the glamour of Alan Kay at places like Xerox PARC to attract the attention of guys like Steve Jobs. Bruce had a bit of a blind-spot, too, when it came to transactions and persistence, which I attempted to remedy by bringing David P. Reed's work on distributed transactions for the ARPAnet to him, but although he wrote a white paper on a predicate calculus (close to a relational) implementation of Reed's thesis (MIT/LCS/TR-205), he didn't really "get it", IMHO. Reed and MacLennan abandoned their work for other pursuits (ironically, Reed was chief scientist at Lotus while Notes was being developed but did not contribute his ideas on distributed synchronization to that development despite the fact that we had a mutual acquaintance from my Plato days by the name of Ray Ozzie -- so, I share some of the blame for this failure) even as Steve Jobs botched the embryonic object oriented world by abandoning Smalltalk and giving us, instead, a lineage consisting of Object Pascal on the Lisa/Mac which begat Objective C on Jobs's NeXT which begat Java at Sun via Naughton and Gosling's experience with NeXT.

This brings us to the present -- a world in which Javascript-based technologies like Tibet promise to not only salvage the object oriented aspect of the Internet from the birth defects of Jobs's spawn, but actually provide an advance over Smalltalk in the same lineage as CLOS and Self. But it is also a world in which there is growing confusion over the proper role of "metadata" in the form of XML -- particularly when it comes to speech acts and distributed inference. I would call Tibet "the next major Internet advance" except for the fact that the basic idea for a Tibet-like system has been around and well understood since the early 1980's. When it is finally released, Tibet (or a system like it) will put the Internet back on track. I call that a "recovery", not an "advance".

We are now poised to move forward with type inference based on full blown inference engines, thereby dispensing with the nonterminating arguments over statically vs dynamically typed languages that allowed Steve Jobs's spawn to get its nose in the tent. If you want to declare a "type" in a declarative language, just make another declaration and let the inference engine figure out what it can do with that information prior to run time. See how easy that was? Well, there is more to it than that, but not that much: Assertions have implications and assertions made prior to run time have implications prior to run time. Live with it and don't repeat the mistakes of the past.

The confusion over semantic webs, and the reason Berners Lee et al will fail, is essentially the same as the confusion that has beleaguered all inferential systems such as logic programming and "artificial intelligence" over the years: logic is irrational and the real world demands rationality -- otherwise nothing makes sense. By "rationality" I mean that reasoning must literally incorporate "ratios" -- or, as John McCarthy would put it, doing arithmetic so things make sense. By making sense, I mean there is a sense in which one interprets the sea of assertions that clearly dominates for a particular purpose. With logic not only are you limited to 0 and 1 as effective quantities; you have no adequate theoretic basis from which to derive more accurate quantities with which to make sense by taking ratios and determining which inferences are dominant.

Fuzzy logic and expert systems incorporating probabilities have typically failed because they are not based in the first principles of probability and statistics. As Gauss, the premiere probability theorist put it, "Mathematics is the study of relations." He didn't say, "Mathematics is the study of multisets." There are good reasons that relational databases, and not set manipulation languages, have come to dominate business applications -- and Gauss was aware of these differences when he began to derive his laws of probability. Subsequent axiomatizations of mathematics based on set theory were similarly misguided and have led to the idea that "fuzzy sets" are the way to introduce rationality into programming. Rather than sets, relations are the foundation, not just of mathematics but of rationality in the same sense that Gauss realized when he derived his theory of probability from the study of relations.

Rationality allows for judgment which is recognized as inherently fallible -- but which allows one to procede without exponentiating all possible paths of inference. Judgment also allows various identities to limit sharing of information to that needed -- thereby creating speech acts and a basis for rational measures of credibility associated with those identities. Since credit-rating is a degeneration of credibility, it should come as no shock that the invention of negative numbers, originating as they did with the Arabic invention of double entry account keeping, has its analog in something that might be called "logical debt" with which negative probabilities are associated.

And now we have come to the "quantum" aspect of rational programming. It is precisely the "credibility debt" aspect of rational programming that corresponds, in mathematical detail, to the various equations of quantum mechanics and their negative probability amplitudes. (Von Neumann's quantum logic failed to properly incorporate logical debt which has led to much confusion.) Logical debt is important to distributed programming for the same reason debt is important to financial networks. Logical debt is a way of handling poor synchronization of information flow in the same way that financial debt is a way of handling poor synchronization of cash flow. As in any rational system, there are both limits to credit and limits to credibilty that influence one's judgments and actions, including speech acts.

The object oriented folks may, in a sense, have the last laugh here because when we divide up inference into identities that engage in speech acts, we are reintroducing the notion of objects that hide information via exchange of speech act messages that can be thought of as "setters" (assertions) and "getters" (queries). However, I believe it is only fair to recognize that the excellent intuitions of Johan Dahl and Kristen Nygaard did need the added insights and rigor of philosophers like J. L. Austin and T. Etter.

I have to disagree. JavaScript is a pretty neat language; although it is most commonly encountered in a web browser, it would be important to ensure that a beginner understood the separation between the language and the environment in which it was hosted. I feel that being made aware of the distinction between the DOM and the core language would help take a beginner a long way down the road to understanding the principles of OOSD.

Although it is true that JS is a prototype-based language rather than a true OOL, I always use it in an object-oriented manner(check out the description of implementing encapsulation and inheritance in Netscape's JS docs - which makes no mention of anything to do with browsers ;-). The speed of development and ease of testing make it my language of choice for all kinds of prototyping, even if I'm ultimately aiming at (say) a Java implementation.

In case you're wondering, I've been coding for 25 years in everything from about 10 different flavours of assembler (anybody else remember loading bootstraps into a PDP8/e using the toggle switches on the front?) to Java via BASIC and Forth, and I wouldn't recommend BASIC to anybody expecting to acquire programming skills which will be of value in TRW. I know VB is going to finally get some kind of bastard object-orientation, but a kludge on a hack isn't a good example to set anyone.

All this IMHO, of course.

over her e

Steve

Look at the money going into streaming media. A large segment of the business world still sees the internet as just another medium for TV or radio broadcasting. By it's very nature broadcasting is not interconnected, it's passive and linear.

Tim Berners-Lee wrote in his book, Weaving the Web that the main obstacle to the web being a true information web of shared knowledge is that content is controlled by too few. He was upset that browsers were developed which could not edit web pages like his original browser/editor.

The silver lining to this, IMHO, is the "weblog" phenomenon, including sites like Slashdot, where ordinary users can contribute their ideas, especially in html format so that they can contribute links. I really believe that some day soon the conventional media sites will be forced to give this kind of capability to their readers, or else risk losing all those eyeballs to Slash-like sites.

"What I cannot create, I do not understand."

Regarding the Dr. Fun cartoon, I can't resist pointing out that they already seem to be doing what Commander Taco would do

I know, -1: Troll...

And in other news, following their glowing success in their suits against MP3 dot Com and Napstar dot Com RIAA has decided to "let it ride!", filling suits against Washington University, Necmer Soft, Inc.,The Apache Group, Netscape, and Microsoft. Only Microsoft was available for comment saying, "... this is no different than STAC...", making reference to the buyout and dissolution of STAC by Microsoft a number of years ago.

Gez. Fuck it! Let's sue the whole damned country. (*whisper*) Oh, Metallica is already doing that...

[And people say Communism and Socialism are Evil (tm).]

Also, you can't perform their material in public without paying royalties. Cover bands who pay their liscensing fees can tell you about that.

Incidently, that's another way that artists can make money when people copy their work - those copying it might play the song on the stereo at their bar, or learn and perform it, and cause perforance royalties to get paid. (Performance royalties are morally clearer and easier to enforce than copying restrictions.) This might apply less to MP3s than it does to guitar transcriptions like those at OLGA. OLGA also shows how ineffective these copyright enforcements are - when they were stomped, mirrors sprung up immediately.

Basically, staff agreed with meta-editors (who are editors who 'edit' editors - ie give them extra editing permissions, recommend them for 'promotion etc), editalls and editors, that if AOL/Netscape/Other were to either try and place adverts on the editing site (dmoz.org - we don't care if our 'downstream users' put adverts on their site or not), or stop issuing RDF dumps or similar then we would take a copy of the most recent RDF dumps that we have (and believe me, many many editors take regular copies for their own usage) and re-start the project somewhere else.

It's only taken less than 2 years for the ODP to grow to over 1.7million sites and with less than 1% of dead sites listed (they are all checked every couple of months) I personally think they are doing better than Yahoo!.

Okay, like all things ODP will have people that are 'critical' about what it is, but many many more people like it.

The implication is that the App division will immediately try and support other OS, to kill the OS division.

At the same time, the OS division will be forced to STOP the floating API game they've been using for so many years. Instead, stability, open APIs, etc. will become the watchword as they try to kill off the App division.

Who "wins"? Everyone. Lower cost, better quality for the consumer. More software companies, with better documentation.

All programmers (MS or not) benefit from a larger pool of employers. MS shareholders win, cuz no matter which one they end up owning (or split) the stock will start rising again before long.

*nix, apple, Sun, SGI win, since they will no longer be a "competitor" to the App division, but an ally in the war against the OS. Similarly, all the app companies will be wooed by the OS division!

Both divisions, by law, will have to provide docs, licensing, etc. at a solid pricing and quality structure to all comers.

Sweeeeet!

PS: Here are the proposed divisions:

The "Operating Systems Business" includes OS products for computing devices such as:
* personal computers based on the Intel x-86 architecture and other microprocessors
* servers
* handheld devices such as personal digital assistants and cellular telephones
* TV set-top boxes

The "Applications Business" includes products such as:
* Office
* Internet Explorer
* BackOffice
* Internet Information Server
* SQL Server
* Mobile Explorer and other Web browsers
* streaming audio and video software
* Mobile Explorer
* SNA server software
* XML servers and parsers
* Java virtual machines
* Frontpage Express
* Outlook Express
* Media player
* Net Meeting
* MSN
* MSNBC
* Slate
* Expedia
* "all investments owned by Microsoft in partnerships or joint ventures"

You want the really simple answer?

Try here

Of course this only makes sense if you know that TSR was bought by WOTC a while back.

--

--

I don't know about 1 and 2 but for the rest, these are already implemented.

• Mozilla has cookie control
• Look/Feel is completely themeable
• Speed is improving with every release (which are not even beta yet!!!) and all the debugging code is still in. Expect a vast (2x++??) improvement when the final version ships this summer/fall

Maybe you could convince one of those responsible for that page to help ?

As for separating design/content, I'd use CSS. It downloads quickly, doesn't require much server recources, and in my expirience it renders much faster than table-formating (./ is hopless here ...) It also degrades gracefully.

Now with mozilla/Netscape 6 soon to be released, css will be pretty much uniformely supported, including layers++. It works with lynx(degrades gracefully), emacs, iexplorer and soon netscape (already works for simply formatting pages, but the fancy stuff is a nightmare in current netscape... and you thought microsoft didn't adhere to standards...)

I'd write a "try-out" page, for making the design, looking something like:

inclue your style-sheet(s) in the header
<h1 class="banner">Welcome to bar-page</h1>
<p class="normal">
One little paragraph right here...
</p>
(...)

And then use a "wysiwyg"-stylesheet editor for formatting it, and the go back, and replace the content through php, or something similar (I guess the choice of a true database vs. just text-files depends on size of the web-site, and who/how it will be updated). I have used dreamveawer(from macromedia - win/mac only) a bit - it is very good, and at least the previous version pretty much preserved whatever type of indenting/formating you used on you stylesheets/html-source, and that is something few wysiwyg tools do, in my not-so-far-reaching experience.

And just to repeat the important stuff: CSS rul3z!
You really have to try the speed-thing to see it for yourself: Make one page with table-formatting and a ton of font-tags, and one that just embeds a style-sheet. Download-size drops, and rendering go relative (as in approaching speed-o-light :). And it's cutting-edge too! AND your page will be much easier to genereate/manipulate with scripts/php/whatever, once you do that. Better searching/easier to implement searching, easier to maintain, cooler, faster, improves your sex-life, saves disk-space, ... oh I'm rambeling, sorry...

hell yeah. open the APIs. Open APIs means plenty of middleware, like Netscape, like Java. Middleware means easy cross-platform development. (Look at the GIMP-based online photo-editing service http://www.onlinephotolab.com!!) Easy cross-platform development means that Joe User, who just wants to run (spreadsheet | video editor | database) can choose *any* OS they want. MS loses dominance, fades into one among many CHOICES, all you Open Source advocates get the satisfaction of winning a fair fight on a level playing field. That's pretty much what Judge Jackson concluded in his Findings of Fact.

This white paper on Netscape's Gecko (requires Acrobat Reader) is full of great quotes like this one
"The Internet appliance is about to arrive, in force. This is a simple, streamlined computer that handles only the Internet and e-mail, and does so very well. It may take the form of a desktop or laptop PC, or a box atop a TV, or a specialized phone, but it won't use Windows or any other obtrusive operating system. In an appliance, the operating system isn't king: it's just plumbing."
--Walt Mossberg,"Using a PC Got Harder, But A New Age Is Dawning," 28 October 99 Wall Street Journal

which seem designed to give Bill Gates the night sweats, and nicely explains why he perceived Netscape as such a threat.

The review of NS6 at c|net said that the ability to change the chrome will be enabled in the final version (slated for late this year). I too think the default chrome is ugly, but I can deal with it because this is a beta release. I also wish I could find how to get it to start without the sidebar.

As far as learning a new UI...not really. All UI's have gone through some amount of convergence. Because Mozilla's source code is ~95% identical across all platforms, a greater amount of UI convergence is to be expected. As far as I've read about XUL, even the menubar can be changed. This is obviously not intended for browser use, but an allowance for application design in general. If skinners want to abuse this, then don't use their skins.

There have been some skins made for the milestone releases. Check out http://www.mozillazine.org/chromezone/. I tried installing the Navigator Classic chrome, but NS6 just crashed.

Let's hope someone at Netscape realizes how ugly the default chrome is, and changing it is enabled in PR2.

ftp://ftp.netscape.com/pub/netscape6/english/6_PR1 /unix/linux22/ne tscap e-v600pr1.x86-unknown-linux2.2.tar.gz
--

Did anyone read the press release? In particular, the bits about AOL pushing net appliances based on Gecko and Linux?

The AOL Gateway family of specialized Internet appliances featuring "Instant AOL" -- which automatically will launch the service as soon as the device is switched on -- include a countertop appliance, wireless Web pad and desktop appliance, a simplified, lower-cost alternative to the PC. All three devices are powered by Gecko and the open source LINUX operating system.

Seems to me that, even within AOL, Mozilla has a lot broader life than just Netscape.

And really, if they're using it for AOL Anywhere, it seems a good bet that they're going to be ditching IE for mainstream AOL -- something that hasn't been at all clear to date.

For all the flak the "tiny installation" has been getting, it does have a valuable purpose: cutting down on the download time. If you think Instant Messenger or Net2Phone qualifies as bloatware, DON'T DOWNLOAD THEM!
It feels rather liberating, actually.

If you want a full download then use this (16 megs).
Do the usual ftp1, ftp2, etc.
This is for win9X people, obviously. It appears the Linux version is a full download, too (10 megs). Mac people can go to the "sea" directory, too.


I like the new ftp interface, btw. Classy!

For all the flak the "tiny installation" has been getting, it does have a valuable purpose: cutting down on the download time. If you think Instant Messenger or Net2Phone qualifies as bloatware, DON'T DOWNLOAD THEM!
It feels rather liberating, actually.

If you want a full download then use this (16 megs).
Do the usual ftp1, ftp2, etc.
This is for win9X people, obviously. It appears the Linux version is a full download, too (10 megs). Mac people can go to the "sea" directory, too.


I like the new ftp interface, btw. Classy!

• Linux 2.2 (extracts into "package" directory like Mozilla milestones)
• Windows
• MacOS 8.5

• Linux 2.2 (extracts into "package" directory like Mozilla milestones)
• Windows
• MacOS 8.5

• Linux 2.2 (extracts into "package" directory like Mozilla milestones)
• Windows
• MacOS 8.5

I was able to get it up and running on RedHat 6.2. But then again, that has all the latest and greatest libraries. I am behind a firewall that has an automated proxy, and although I set the setting to "auto:" and gave the same proxy that I did for N4.7, it doesn't get anything beyond our firewall. I have an internal web server that it displays fine, but I can't go beyond the firewall.

The debug message shows:

FindShortcut: in='http://www.netscape.com' out='null'
Document http://www.netscape.com loaded successfully
Document: Done (0.375 secs)

But it doesn't show anything in the window, and the window doesn't redraw if I place something over it.

I looked up how to send this in and saw this in their FAQ But unfortunately, the only way it seems to report something is if you can get outside the firewall. Nice catch 22!

Is there another "official" way to report feedback, or bugs to Netscape?

Steven Rostedt

ftp3.netscape.com/pub/netscape6/english/6_PR1/wind ows/win32/sea/NetscapeSetup.exe
It's the full 16.8MB Win32 download.

And for windows people (like me):
ftp://ftp.netscape.com/pub/netscape6/english/6_PR1 /windows/win32/sea/NetscapeSetup.exe

And for windows people (like me):
ftp://ftp.netscape.com/pub/netscape6/english/6_PR1 /windows/win32/sea/NetscapeSetup.exe

ftp://ftp.netscape.com/pub/netscape6/english/6_PR1 /windows/win32/sea/NetscapeSetup.exe