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Are you me?

I remember it being cyberspace.org, not .com. I also recall that it wasn't a trial at all, but that it survived on kick-backs from the local telco for connection fees from long-distance callers. The phone bills - those are things my parents will never forget. Likewise on the MS-DOS based SLIP connections: It sure seemed like it ought to be better, but packetization delays with TCP/IP over a 14.4k modem made it fairly hellish compared to just using a Telemate for a terminal emulator.

Around the same time I was also using a borrowed, freebie alumni account on the local University's VAX, with almost no storage quota. It was nice, but their modems were only 9600bps, backed by a 56k leased line to Sprint.

Later on, I discovered io.com and their 10 megabyte disk quota (with lots more, temporarily, for free if you asked nice) seemed dreamy in comparison. This lead to IRC and a decent Usenet feed, which lead to a lost childhood. 9600 became kind of slow for this use, but Delphi provided just enough Unix-y stuff to get to an io.com shell reliably at somewhat higher speeds. (I still hate web-based forums and long for the simplicity of tin, even though tin itself was considered ridiculously featureful at the time.)

Security was lax, but people (everywhere) made the Internet a much friendlier and trusting place than it is in today's secure-by-default, impossible-to-share-anything mentality (which isn't really any better). It wasn't long after I discovered that /home/* wasn't locked down at all, that I also discovered how to keep some of my own files to myself.

I also liked io.com's announcements, where jrcloose and company would rant, often in some depth, about whatever nefarious technical struggle they were solving today, and Steve Jackson himself would sometimes write about...whatever the fuck Steve wanted to write about. I learned a lot from those pages (though I can't call them blogs, because blogs weren't a thing yet).

Muscle memory still requires me to type "ping io.com" when checking a system for DNS and IP connectivity.

Ah, the freewheeling days of yore, where building a mail server just meant setting up Sendmail, some manner of POP3 and IMAP access, sorting out the MX record, and just leaving port 25 open for all and sundry to use -- because there was just no need to do anything more restrictive at the time.

And the Corel NetWinder, where everyone was sure that ARM was the future -- 18 years ago. http://www.netwinder.org/about...

Are we there yet?

Oh. Right: Back on topic, I was a kid then. Getting this shit working in useful (and/or interesting) ways required problem-solving skills, which are processes that are now indelibly burned into my brain's wiring.

These days, I can troubleshoot just about anything.

Don't get me wrong, I think that ARM has a great story to tell for phones and tablets. There power conservation and efficiency dominate. Once you leave that space then ARM is in a different world of expectations, with different business models and all the rest. That's why I always think that ARM servers are a bit of a fantasy. There are a lot of deluded people talking about how ARM is "gonna" revolutionize servers, and desktops. Yeah, so where are all these great products I keep hearing about?

You mean like the Corel NetWinder? You heard it here first, but the year that the power-efficient ARM server is going to change everything is 1999.

The NetWinder was based on the DEC/Intel StrongARM 110. They had quite a nice desktop working back in 1999 along with a large developer community

The NetWinder was based on the DEC/Intel StrongARM 110. They had quite a nice desktop working back in 1999 along with a large developer community

"Looking and behaving better" is partly a matter of what you are used to, and also a reflection on the poor quality of many Java UIs, which is more a reflection on the apps themselves rather than the platform (there are exceptions, demonstrating that Java is capable of being better). If you could have an app that looked and acted exactly the same on all desktop machines, and appropriately differently on palmtop devices (but the same across all such devices), would that be enough to make you want to avoid duplicating all those presentation layers? (I think you underestimate the amount of work involved in producing a good presentation layer, BTW).

Yes, Virginia, Corel sold hardware! The Netwinder lives on. For the unitiated, this originally was a StrongArm platform and there's a later Transmeta version.

Originally, these were available in Office Server, web server and desktop machine versions, different loads on the same hardware. Eventually a dual chassis rackmount appeared. With a couple of NICs and IPChains, they'd NAT an office. (No, I don't want to debate running Samba, etc. on the firewall just leave it at it was an inexpensive powerful small business solution).

It's got a strong developer base still. Went through a Rebel phase. When Rebel tanked, the CEOs new company used the customer list he brought but didn't own to spam people saying their Netwinders weren't secure and offered to sell them a blackbox firewall to plug in in front of it that wasn't secure. Ah, the scruples of a VC inspired world.

Anyway, these are great boxes that can be had new for cheap (~US$400) and less on eBay for used. Small, functional, reliable. I've got one running behind me running me.

And really enjoy it. I've had it since back in '98 when they first came out and the software on it has improved enormously. Netwinder.org is still up after all this time and people are still creating new disk images for it and updating it. Even though the processor (275 MHz) is not anything to brag about, it works wonderfully for a firewall/FTP server/etc, which is what I use it for. It's a heck of a lot more versatile than a dedicated box and doesn't make much noise or heat. It's great to be able to fire up a copy of Ethereal to sniff packets right off my cable modem. A great little box for what it does, but unfortunately I think they priced themselves out of their primary market-- dedicated firewalls and print/file servers.

The problem with netwinders is that they were overpriced, underpowered, and too loud (!) for the home hobbyist market.

Speaking of being loud, have a look at these fan modifications to make it quiet enough to leave on all the time.

• Big honking fan
• Ralph's fan modification

There's also a good series of NetWinder internalspictures. It's a great little machine for hacking on.

The problem with netwinders is that they were overpriced, underpowered, and too loud (!) for the home hobbyist market.

Speaking of being loud, have a look at these fan modifications to make it quiet enough to leave on all the time.

• Big honking fan
• Ralph's fan modification

There's also a good series of NetWinder internalspictures. It's a great little machine for hacking on.

Actually, I'd say you're just about spot on. They were working on a Crusoe-based version for their "next big thing" but it was still going to be underpowered compared to what's available.

They did support netwinder.org which was a netwinder "community" site. They even had personal pages put up by some of their employees with pictures of the internals, a 15 node beowulf cluster of caseless netwinders, and a page describing how to change the horrid little fan inside them to one that's a lot quieter. Unfortunately it seems this was stored on Rebel.com's fileserver which has disappeared.

They are nice little machines. The size of the box is just about perfect, and they run off 12V so you can make a UPS out of a car battery. But I guess that's the sort of thing that appeals to geeks, and as you noted they mostly stopped caring about the geeks.

From the FAQ on www.netwinder.org:

The Corel Computer NetWinder Linux Computer is a high performance, compact RISC based machine equipped with a variety of networking, telephony, and multimedia peripherals.

Based on the Intel StrongARM processor, clocked at 275 MHZ, the NetWinder uses the performance, and stability of the Linux Operating System to deliver over 250 MIPS of power, while drawing only 10 watts of power.

There are two basic hardware choices, a plastic case and a rack mount. SCSI is available as an option on the rack mount. The OS (OfficeServer) and TC (Thin Client) models have depopulated boards, meaning certain hardware (such as video capture) is not normally included.

From the FAQ on www.netwinder.org:

The Corel Computer NetWinder Linux Computer is a high performance, compact RISC based machine equipped with a variety of networking, telephony, and multimedia peripherals.

Based on the Intel StrongARM processor, clocked at 275 MHZ, the NetWinder uses the performance, and stability of the Linux Operating System to deliver over 250 MIPS of power, while drawing only 10 watts of power.

There are two basic hardware choices, a plastic case and a rack mount. SCSI is available as an option on the rack mount. The OS (OfficeServer) and TC (Thin Client) models have depopulated boards, meaning certain hardware (such as video capture) is not normally included.

Yesterday Andrew E. Mileski, a senior software developer at Rebel.com, posted the following to the netwinder.announce newsgroup on netwinder.org:

Rebel.com pulled the plug on NetWinder.org's fileserver.
[And the Rebel.com mail server's fileserver.]
The following services have been disabled on NetWinder.org:
ftp
rsync
pop (internal)
Web access to member directories will also not work.
I don't know for certain what will happen with mail, but assume it will be spooled.
We, the people behind NetWinder.org, will try to rectify the situation ASAP.

They include iRDA, speaker, mic, dual NIC, all the usual ports. The desktop takes up the same sort of size as a paperback book and the rackmount takes up half of a 1U chassis.

The next generation of NetWinders will be based on Transmeta's Crusoe instead of StrongARM. Shame, because a NetWinder based on a 1GHz Intel XScale (successor to StrongARM) would have been very nice.

I think that answers the question :-)

The StrongArm was mentioned.

This is particularly good, because many, many, applications for this chip have already been compiled for this chip by Rebel.Com for the NetWinder, including, of course, the Linux kernel.

The Netwinder is a very small and power unhungry device already, but I can imagine even smaller, more eficient devices.

Perhaps something that can run QNX? Or maybe Compaq could give more though to the ITSY?

Well, the future sure looks energy-efficient. Indeed.

I highly doubt that Cobalt will move to 2.2 on the MIPS devices (Qube, Raq2).

Their latest and greatest Raq3 uses an AMD K6 and 2.2 is, of course, supported.

I have a Qube 2 under my desk at work, which I have abandoned due to the lack of 2.2.

If you need a small server like this and want Linux 2.2 on it, get a Netwinder. It's an ultra cool box, I recommend plugging in a monitor and keyboard. It's useable as a desktop machine. There's even a desktop version specifically for that which has NTSC I/O.

That circle thing on the side is a speaker, btw. A voice sounds "Welcome to Netwinder" when the system is properly up.

There are rackmount versions, too. You can fit two of them in a single 1u space.

Of course, the coolest thing is the hackability. Check out www.netwinder.org to find all kinds of great docs, software, and ideas. There's a pic there somewhere of a stack of netwinder guts set up as a Beowulf. The OS is a modified recent RedHat. You'll find it easier to get software compiled on it than the Qube.

Needless to say, one of these babies occupy a space on *top* of my desk.

There are some detailed HOWTOs on www.netwinder.org. The Netwinder gives you the option to boot from the network (kernel via TFTP, root filesystem over NFS) so it's actually fairly easy to install new images. Just net-boot from another server, and you can fdisk/format/install your local hard drive. However, before you do this, you should first flash the most recent firmware image. E-mail me privately if you need more help.

p.s. Anyone moderating this thread offtopic - you do know that the Netwinder is a StrongARM/Linux computer, right???

Corel just bought Inprise/Borland, and according to the recent interview with Slashdot Corel really seems to be going all-out for Linux.

I think Corel is really committed to Linux and this isn't just a publicity thing. They really hate MS over there, as would anyone who has tried to compete with MS on a core product. They might be pretty clueless when it comes to the GPL, but give them a chance.

If they become a good member of the Linux community think of what they have to offer. Graphics knowledge from Corel PhotoPaint and Corel Draw. A very good word processing program (I maintain anything with "reveal codes" has to be superior to Word). Good IDEs from Inprise/Borland. They even have some really good hardware knowledge. Remember they're the ones originally behind the Netwinder

I know this is somewhat offtopic, but as an Ottawa resident I'm just hoping that a local company can inspire a little fear in Microsoft and hope we can help them do it instead of just flaming them for their errors.

> Yay! Now anybody want to look into turning these into a 2.3/2.4 kernel mod?

Go ask the folks at www.netwinder.org (the other cool StrongARM/Linux box).

The web page does mention ARMlinux, which implies that it's using a StrongARM processor (the same as the Netwinder)

As for watching soaps, I'm guessing that you first have to download them onto a CompactFlash slot (they'd better be short soaps)

If you look around www.gmate.co.kr (near the bottom of Samsung's page they're mentioned under the heading "System and Asic Solution") you'll find a bit of information about a PDA called CHOPIN, which is due out in March 2000. It confirms the StrongARM and Linux are being used, but the only new piece of info amoungst the pages "Under Construction" signs is that it has 32MB RAM

Anaconda kicks much tail.

Does anyone else notice a pattern here?

• Anaconda
• Asp and Asp 2
• Boa
• Bushmaster
• Caiman
• Cobra (Mk I and Mk III)
• Copperhead
• Coriolis
• Gecko
• Krait
• Mamba
• Python
• Sidewinder
• Viper 1 and 2
• Worm 1 and 2

Nominating companies or applications to match Hognose, Dodo, and Thargoid is left as an exercise to the reader.

First, realize that the NetWinder is still in beta form. Although the hardware is fairly mature at this time, the software is still in quite rough shape. Although there has been a flurry of activity on the developer's site since the beginning of the year, the last official release was before the beginning of the year. I'd like to see that change soon. What happened to release early and often?

The software on my DM is a crazy quilt of different releases. egcs and glib2, but there's no Netscape. It's got some of Red Hat 5.x, but all RPM's have to installed with the --nodeps flag because the software is a crazy quilt. There is no userful configuration tool that I've seen and the documentation is next to non-existent, printed or otherwise. Many things work well, but many other things don't work at all. All this has to be straightened out before the NetWinder is ready to sell to the general public, especially as an everyday workstation.

Okay, so what's so good about the NetWinder? Fortunately there is a lot of good. It's got to be one of the coolest computers I've ever seen. But, nobody would buy a computer that looked cool if it didn't act the part as well. I'm happy to say that the NetWinder fits the role.

The hardware is mature even if the software isn't. Built-in features are plentiful. Sound, IrDA, video capture and output (both NTSC and PAL), two NICs (one a DEC Tulip 10/100base), microphone and speaker, parallel (EPP/ECP) and serial ports. Parallel port IDE devices are supported. The originally specified built-in modem and telephony capability is gone (although the connectors still live on my machine). That is too bad, but even without telephony there are sufficient features to make most anybody happy. And the components with which I've had experience all seem to be of very high quality. Hardware wise this is a very nice machine. I feel that alone could assure its success in the market (if the software gets done).

One feature with which I have quite a bit of experience is the Dec Tulip 10/100base network interface. The Corel developers did their homework on this interface. It flies. My entire network uses DEC Tulip chip cloan NICs. All the machines are quick, but the NetWinder really pumps it out. There is a noticable difference here. The NetWinder can effortlessly saturate my little hub while my PII-300 has to really work to do it.

The Winder is also speedy in loading large chunks from hard drive. I don't think that this is because of the hard drive, which is a 2.5 inch, 4 GB Toshiba. I believe that the credit goes to intelligent coding, the StrongARM CPU and its support chips. For instance, emacs and X windows load much quicker on the Winder than on my PII-300. This would support HCC's claim that the NetWinder is ideal as a server. After using the machine for a few months in that mode, it still seems fast. I'm still very impressed.

The NetWinder uses less than 15 watts of power. One of the Corel engineers told me that he got a NetWinder to bootstrap using only one regular nine volt battery for power. I guess it didn't run too long, but it got to the login prompt with no problems. I haven't tried this, nor do I intend to. But, this will give you an idea of how little power it uses. I can see a lot of special applications being made that take advantage of this feature. Solar power anybody?

Am I glad that I bought a NetWinder? On the whole, yes. I am very pleased with it. This little guy figures prominently in my future plans. I hope that HCC soon will get through the transition and release the desperately needed major software upgrade. In the meantime, I'll let my NetWinder serve up Web pages for my network and do some other miscellaneous things. But, what I'd really like is to use it as an easily packable computer. Soon, I hope.

Regards,

Arne Flones
Long Ship Software

Corel has a vested interest in HCC and still appears to be actively involved in the NetWinder line.