Slashdot Mirror

Believe it or not, there is no law against Govt spying on UK citizens. Well, there is the retrospective Human Rights Act's Right to Privacy but even Cameron wants to get rid of that.

No, instead we have laws like the ID Cards Act where everyone with a passport/driving license will be forced to turn up for interrogation, fingerprinted like a criminal and forced on to give up keys to their records on the passport, tax, benefits and new ANPR databases. All to be connected to form the world's most intrusive mass surveillance database - even worse than anything China or North Korea have.

Oh, and the Dictatorship Bill which passed on Tuesday.

Or the human cattle ID cards Act, which creates by far the world's most intrusive Big Brother database on citizens by linking up 5+ previously unconnected databases...

The Dictatorship Bill, also called the Abolition of Parliament Bill, Totalitarianism Bill or (by the Govt) the Legislative and Regulatory Reform Bill is nothing less than a naked grab for power. After being amended 3x, the Bill was passed in the form described here.

LRRB enables ministers to rewrite our constitution with only rudimentary scrutiny. Consider the extraordinary mass surveillance / coersion implications of the ID Cards Act. Even the well-organised opposition could not stop this legislation.

What chance then of:
1. Spotting obscure but deeply damaging clauses hidden in the boring legislation?
2. Motivating the Tories, LibDems and enough New Labour drones to subsequently block it?

LRRB is then carte blanche for Blair to do what he will with this country. What can we deduce of his plans?

New Labour already rejected an amendment to stop LRRB re-writing our most important constitutional laws. They then promised to introduce new amendments fulfilling the same thing. Our skepticism was once again justified. This is more than enough evidence that Blair wants dictatorial powers.

LRRB is obviously a precursor to passing laws which Parliament wouldn't otherwise pass.

Considering the deeply scary laws he's got through Parliament, the likelihood is that he wants something so badly, and so unpalatable that he won't even risk presenting it for proper Parliamentary scrutiny.

- He does not need Parliamentary approval to invade Iran
- He already has Hitler's Enabling Act.
- He has already passed RIPA and the ID Cards Act for more Big Brother snooping than anything China or North Korea have.
- He already has locked up people for 3 years without trial or even being questioned - although he has been twice been 'told off' for breaching the Human Rights Act in this way.

I did not believe that he needs LRRB to repeal the HRA - indeed one welcome amendment was to exclude the HRA from being amended. When every other explanation has been ruled out, whatever remains, however unlikely, must be considered. I think something much worse is coming although I dread to think what.

Or the human cattle ID cards Act, which creates by far the world's most intrusive Big Brother database on citizens by linking up 5+ previously unconnected databases...

The Dictatorship Bill, also called the Abolition of Parliament Bill, Totalitarianism Bill or (by the Govt) the Legislative and Regulatory Reform Bill is nothing less than a naked grab for power. After being amended 3x, the Bill was passed in the form described here.

LRRB enables ministers to rewrite our constitution with only rudimentary scrutiny. Consider the extraordinary mass surveillance / coersion implications of the ID Cards Act. Even the well-organised opposition could not stop this legislation.

What chance then of:
1. Spotting obscure but deeply damaging clauses hidden in the boring legislation?
2. Motivating the Tories, LibDems and enough New Labour drones to subsequently block it?

LRRB is then carte blanche for Blair to do what he will with this country. What can we deduce of his plans?

New Labour already rejected an amendment to stop LRRB re-writing our most important constitutional laws. They then promised to introduce new amendments fulfilling the same thing. Our skepticism was once again justified. This is more than enough evidence that Blair wants dictatorial powers.

LRRB is obviously a precursor to passing laws which Parliament wouldn't otherwise pass.

Considering the deeply scary laws he's got through Parliament, the likelihood is that he wants something so badly, and so unpalatable that he won't even risk presenting it for proper Parliamentary scrutiny.

- He does not need Parliamentary approval to invade Iran
- He already has Hitler's Enabling Act.
- He has already passed RIPA and the ID Cards Act for more Big Brother snooping than anything China or North Korea have.
- He already has locked up people for 3 years without trial or even being questioned - although he has been twice been 'told off' for breaching the Human Rights Act in this way.

I did not believe that he needs LRRB to repeal the HRA - indeed one welcome amendment was to exclude the HRA from being amended. When every other explanation has been ruled out, whatever remains, however unlikely, must be considered. I think something much worse is coming although I dread to think what.

I friend sent me this link just yesterday about someone trying to purchase a pizza in the world it would appear both the UK and US governments want us to live in!

I, for one, do not welcome any overlords, whether insect or other sufficently low life to want to be in politics!
Just say NO

By that logic, anything that makes the government more efficient is a tool of oppression.

And by your logic, invading Iraq was a good idea becuase it killed a few terrorists.

There is little evidence that ID cards make the government more efficient at anything other than genocide.

"Liberty has never come from Government. Liberty has always come from the subjects of it The history of liberty is a history of limitations of governmental power, not the increase of it." - Woodrow Wilson

My earlier post on this thread.

And it strikes me, from the reactions I've seen here, that Americans fear their Government a lot more than people who have lived for 50 years under a communist dictatorship.

We should be thankful that Americans are taught to respect freedom and keep their Government accountable. Could you imagine what would happen if America was suddenly taken over by a fascist like Hitler?

But think about it, what difference does it really make?

I don't know. What happens if you get another Franco/in the next 100 years? Is there an arrest field on your ID record?

Identity theft is almost unheard of, and even if attempted it cracks down as some point along the way without liability for the victim.

Same in Britain. What difference do ID cards make?

You already leave a lot of traces everywhere as you interact with society and all kinds of services.

Is that a good thing?

How long would it take to collate this information? A day per person?

How long if they're all under the same number? An hour per person?

How long if they're all linked electronically under the same number? A minute to search for signs of dissidence amongst 100+ million people?

Ask the Jews about the first ever electronic database on citizens.

My earlier post on this thread.

Furthermore, the passport applications will be denied unless you give up your passport number, DVLA number and NI number ie indexes to major UK databases on:

1. international travels.
2. car travels via national ANPR.
3. tax/income & disability benefits.

We're also being given a new unique number for what can be no other purpose than indexing our medical records, bank records, phone & email records and potentially even dissident Slashdot posts like this one.

For those without a background in databases, I've explained this further here.

If that wasn't bad enough, the cards will also contain RFID chips.

It's also clear that the Government want to make us dependent on ID cards
"the ID card is now an accepted part of accessing many public- and private-sector services."

This would be less scary if Blair's Government hadn't lied at every opportunity, attacked one of our most prestigious academic institutes for daring to offer a less intrusive scheme and wasn't passing Bills to do away with our democratic process.

So what can you do to help?

1. Join No2ID, the extremely well-run campaign that is the fastest growing in the UK.
2. Tell all your UK friends, especially influential ones what is happening. Tell them to Renew their passports for Freedom in May.

If you live in the UK and you want to "pass" you should consider renewing your passport sooner rather than later ...

There is a new website setup by the No2ID people aimed at getting folks to register their displeasure by renewing their passports in May.

The aim is to encourage supporters to renew their passports in May, ahead of the linkage between the passport and the National Identity Register. Last month the Home Secretary, Charles Clarke, said that "anyone who feels strongly enough about the linkage [...] will be free to surrender their existing passport and apply for a new passport before the designation order takes effect." It is possible to renew your passport at any time without having to pretend the dog ate it.

OK, at the moment someone might have to fake/forge a number of documents (in the UK at least) such as a recent utilities bill in their name, driving licence, passport, etc but even having done so, the people looking at these document know there's a chance that they may be forged and are (hopefully!) keeping an eye out for anything suspicous.

Fast forward to "2084" (as 1984 has already passed!) and you rock up with a forged ID Card. The bozo looking at this card is going to "know" that it is genuine (because our wonderful leaders have told us it will be!) and not bother looking any further. Indeed, if someone has a card with their face/iris/fingerprint on it and your name (and id number), he is, to all intents and purposes, you! You will now have to prove that you are you ... and how will you do that?

It sucks ....

Just say no and Renew your passport now!

It's been billed as the answer to terrorism/benefit fraud/identity theft/god knows what else at various points in its life, and at one point was even called an 'Entitlement Card'. They've more or less admitted that it won't make a blind bit of difference to any of those, but have still decided to press on.

They plan to start shortly by issuing identity cards to people who apply for a passport, at a combined (planned) cost of £93. The Government claimed that the scheme was voluntary, because, hey, you don't *need* to get a passport. Eventually they climbed down somewhat, and now you don't have to get an ID card with a passport. But - and it's a big but - you still get entered on the NIR and you still pay £93. So you're essentially paying for something and then not getting it.

Eventually the scheme will become compulsory, at which point a whole lot of fun ensues. The Government plans to summon every adult to a processing centre to they can be fingerprinted, photographed and iris scanned. Oh, and interviewed. Don't turn up? That's a £1,000 fine for you. For *every time* you don't turn up. Need to amend your details on your nice shiny new card? You pay the Government. Lose your card? You pay the Government. The list goes on.

Coupled with the fact that the UK Government never seems to get its IT systems quite right, we're heading for a nightmare. I certainly don't want somebody, possibly with a grudge or who could be bribed to have access to a multitude of information on me. There's no security from the perspective of the card either - the possibility of them cards using some sort of PKI certificates or such was ignored.

The UK Government constantly tries to remind us that the majority of the countries in the EU have an identity card scheme, but what they fail to mention is that most of these are just that - an identity card, in many cases without a central database. Indeed, the UK scheme would be illegal in Germany.

There's a non-partisan pressure group that was set up in the UK called No2ID (disclaimer: I'm a local co-ordinator). If you're in the UK, no matter what your views are on ID cards, I urge you to check them out and see what the scheme really means for you.

It's been billed as the answer to terrorism/benefit fraud/identity theft/god knows what else at various points in its life, and at one point was even called an 'Entitlement Card'. They've more or less admitted that it won't make a blind bit of difference to any of those, but have still decided to press on.

They plan to start shortly by issuing identity cards to people who apply for a passport, at a combined (planned) cost of £93. The Government claimed that the scheme was voluntary, because, hey, you don't *need* to get a passport. Eventually they climbed down somewhat, and now you don't have to get an ID card with a passport. But - and it's a big but - you still get entered on the NIR and you still pay £93. So you're essentially paying for something and then not getting it.

Eventually the scheme will become compulsory, at which point a whole lot of fun ensues. The Government plans to summon every adult to a processing centre to they can be fingerprinted, photographed and iris scanned. Oh, and interviewed. Don't turn up? That's a £1,000 fine for you. For *every time* you don't turn up. Need to amend your details on your nice shiny new card? You pay the Government. Lose your card? You pay the Government. The list goes on.

Coupled with the fact that the UK Government never seems to get its IT systems quite right, we're heading for a nightmare. I certainly don't want somebody, possibly with a grudge or who could be bribed to have access to a multitude of information on me. There's no security from the perspective of the card either - the possibility of them cards using some sort of PKI certificates or such was ignored.

The UK Government constantly tries to remind us that the majority of the countries in the EU have an identity card scheme, but what they fail to mention is that most of these are just that - an identity card, in many cases without a central database. Indeed, the UK scheme would be illegal in Germany.

There's a non-partisan pressure group that was set up in the UK called No2ID (disclaimer: I'm a local co-ordinator). If you're in the UK, no matter what your views are on ID cards, I urge you to check them out and see what the scheme really means for you.

No2ID is the main opposition to the ID Cards scheme. These guys are truly wonderful people though currently somewhat gutted that the Tories sold them out & didn't even have the decency to warn them.

His Government just blocked an amendment that would prevent LRRB being used to abolish elections, imprison everyone etc.

We have already had the Civil Contingencies aka Nazi Enabling Act which gives near unlimited powers to Ministers in the event of an emergency (eg burning down the Reichstag).

We have already had the dreadful Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act forced upon us. RIPA can force ISPs to secretly install mass surveillance equipment or imprison you if you do not release your PGP keys.

And the insidious Identity Cards Bill is hanging like a Sword of Damocles over British privacy and freedom. ID cards are just a front for an unbelievably intrusive database that would make the Stasi blush. The excellent No2ID campaign cannot persuade the House of Lords to hold this up for much longer...

Other attacks on British freedom here.

As Woodrow Wilson pointed out:

Liberty has never come from Government. Liberty has always come from the subjects of it... The history of liberty is a history of limitations of governmental power, not the increase of it.

Whether you consider it your duty to protect Britain's freedom or whether it is merely expedient because you'd like to live here, please write to your MP and join the many campaigners who are dedicating their lives to this fight.

... and this is what saddens me the most! The "Great British Public" being hoodwinked again! Did you know that the ID Cards Roadshow put up by the Government banned the NoToID people from leafleting the crowd to try and put a different view?

Most people I have talked to who were for ID cards are easily persuaded to be against them. I'm not even going to say outright that ID cards are bad (although that is, rather obviously, my view!), but if people can be so easily swayed, in the worst case, it is presumably the last opinion they heard that they will agree with! Most people don't know enough about the issues (both pros and cons) to be able to make a reasoned decision. I have never had a conversation with a Pro ID Card person (or group) which has provided me with a solid reason why ID cards will be good for Britain.

Have you not noticed how the Gov keep changing tack? First it was terrorism, fraud, but then Charles Clarke admitted they would not have help fight terrorism or fraud.
Next they jump on the distinctly right wing agenda immigration bandwagon, but if an illegal immigrant doesn't have "papers", surely, and ID card is simply another "paper" they won't have?
Next, someone in the spin-doctor think-tank picks up on ID Theft, and now ID cards are going to do away with it all together. The people who know suggest it might actually make it easier to steal someone's ID, and actually harder to get your ID back! If someone discovers your password or PIN number, you can change it, but if someone forges your fingerprint you are right royally screwed!

Each time the Gov put forward some reason for ID cards, someone (and sometimes from within the Gov!) has debunked it. They are squirming around looking for a good reason. I'd really like to know why they think it is a good idea, but I don't think they've told us what they really think yet!

Just Say No!

... and this is what saddens me the most! The "Great British Public" being hoodwinked again! Did you know that the ID Cards Roadshow put up by the Government banned the NoToID people from leafleting the crowd to try and put a different view?

Most people I have talked to who were for ID cards are easily persuaded to be against them. I'm not even going to say outright that ID cards are bad (although that is, rather obviously, my view!), but if people can be so easily swayed, in the worst case, it is presumably the last opinion they heard that they will agree with! Most people don't know enough about the issues (both pros and cons) to be able to make a reasoned decision. I have never had a conversation with a Pro ID Card person (or group) which has provided me with a solid reason why ID cards will be good for Britain.

Have you not noticed how the Gov keep changing tack? First it was terrorism, fraud, but then Charles Clarke admitted they would not have help fight terrorism or fraud.
Next they jump on the distinctly right wing agenda immigration bandwagon, but if an illegal immigrant doesn't have "papers", surely, and ID card is simply another "paper" they won't have?
Next, someone in the spin-doctor think-tank picks up on ID Theft, and now ID cards are going to do away with it all together. The people who know suggest it might actually make it easier to steal someone's ID, and actually harder to get your ID back! If someone discovers your password or PIN number, you can change it, but if someone forges your fingerprint you are right royally screwed!

Each time the Gov put forward some reason for ID cards, someone (and sometimes from within the Gov!) has debunked it. They are squirming around looking for a good reason. I'd really like to know why they think it is a good idea, but I don't think they've told us what they really think yet!

Just Say No!

... and this is what saddens me the most! The "Great British Public" being hoodwinked again! Did you know that the ID Cards Roadshow put up by the Government banned the NoToID people from leafleting the crowd to try and put a different view?

Most people I have talked to who were for ID cards are easily persuaded to be against them. I'm not even going to say outright that ID cards are bad (although that is, rather obviously, my view!), but if people can be so easily swayed, in the worst case, it is presumably the last opinion they heard that they will agree with! Most people don't know enough about the issues (both pros and cons) to be able to make a reasoned decision. I have never had a conversation with a Pro ID Card person (or group) which has provided me with a solid reason why ID cards will be good for Britain.

Have you not noticed how the Gov keep changing tack? First it was terrorism, fraud, but then Charles Clarke admitted they would not have help fight terrorism or fraud.
Next they jump on the distinctly right wing agenda immigration bandwagon, but if an illegal immigrant doesn't have "papers", surely, and ID card is simply another "paper" they won't have?
Next, someone in the spin-doctor think-tank picks up on ID Theft, and now ID cards are going to do away with it all together. The people who know suggest it might actually make it easier to steal someone's ID, and actually harder to get your ID back! If someone discovers your password or PIN number, you can change it, but if someone forges your fingerprint you are right royally screwed!

Each time the Gov put forward some reason for ID cards, someone (and sometimes from within the Gov!) has debunked it. They are squirming around looking for a good reason. I'd really like to know why they think it is a good idea, but I don't think they've told us what they really think yet!

Just Say No!

The UK government has recently tried to restrict the right to trial by jury; it has detained people without charge or trial in Belmarsh prison; it has placed control orders on people who have not been convicted of any offence; it has announced plans to track every car journey and record the details for 2 years; it has pushed through an EU data retention directive that will force ISPs and other telecoms providers to store logs for 2 years to allow security services to perform traffic analysis; it has allowed the creation of a massive police DNA database; it is attempting to introduce compulsory national ID cards with a central register which will record every occasion on which a card is used.

You are correct that video surveillance is not our primary danger, but independent media and democratic systems are doing nothing to prevent the UK from turning into a police state.

I wrote about this yesterday.

Oh, did you also know this Government passed an identical law to Hitler's Enablement Act? This law enabled Hitler to assume absolute power after he burned down the Reichstag and blamed it on communists.

My Grandfather fought Hitler across two continents to protect Britain from this kind of totalitarianism. The least we can do is help the resistance campaigns at Privacy International and No2ID.

I wrote about this
    yesterday.

Oh, did you also know this Government passed an identical
    law to Hitler's Enablement Act? This law enabled Hitler to assume
    absolute power after he burned down the Reichstag and blamed it on communists.

My Grandfather fought Hitler across two continents to protect Britain from
    this kind of totalitarianism. The least we can do is help the resistance
    campaigns at Privacy International
    and No2ID.

... although Echelon is a UKUSA agreement. In the UK, nearly all internet traffic is tapped by the Echelon network up the road at GCHQ. Every email address will have a record showing how many times you've said "bomb" and God knows what else. Up to 1 million citizens will have files that link to their email addresses, bank account numbers etc.

In the UK, of course, the powers that be weren't satisfied and so RIPA was born.

The Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 (RIPA) allows the government to access a person's electronic communications in a very unrestricted manner, thus infringing in the privacy of their correspondance in a manner many would not tolerate regarding their postal communications. The act:

• Enables the government to demand that an ISP provides access to a customer's communications in secret;
• Enables mass surveillance of communications in transit;
• Enables the government to demand ISPs fit equipment to facilitate surveillance;
• Enables the government to demand that someone hands over keys to protected information;
• Allows the government to monitor people's internet activities;
• Prevents the existence of interception warrants and any data collected with them from being revealed in court

In other words, unlimited mass surveillance of the internet.

This info is derived from the excellent Magna Carta Plus site which details how British freedoms have been destroyed over the last 10 years.

Not content with that, our Dear Leader is creating a way of linking together all our records on British civil (and corporate) databases, by numbering us under the Identity Cards Bill. This will create a database on citizens' way of life which is 20x more intrusive than anything else the planet has ever seen.

Furthermore, British citizens be will required to buy a "Government Approved" identity to use public services, be allowed to travel in or out of the country, maybe even to vote.

Because the Government has successfully kept such legislation low profile, only around 1 in 20 citizens are aware of it. Those who are aware are terrified, especially as the Govt keeps threatening to withdraw from the European Convention of Human Rights.

Back in February, when few had a clue that our totalitarian Government was plotting the creation of a database on citizens 20x more intrusive than anything else on the planet, Richard was busy trying to explain it to any MP who would listen.

He was also one of the few who understood the 'Nazi Enablement Act' which granted our Government unlimited power under the law.

And he questioned the Government on who DID actually seize Indymedia servers.

Back in February, when few had a clue that our totalitarian Government was plotting the creation of a database on citizens 20x more intrusive than anything else on the planet, Richard was busy trying to explain it to any MP who would listen.

He was also one of the few who understood the 'Nazi Enablement Act' which granted our Government unlimited power under the law.

And he questioned the Government on who DID actually seize Indymedia servers.

If you have not done so already, get in contact with your local branch of No2ID. Sign the I refuse pledge (or at least the I support pledge). Lobby your MP and your councillors: many councils across the UK are passing resolutions to forbid government services from requiring their users to have ID cards.

Check out this Labour Party survey about terrorism. The Labour Party are the ones pushing this draconian Terrorism Bill, for which they claim popular support. It is so biased that one of their ministers has actually apologised for it.

Well, when people have a generally easy life, it breeds apathy about such things as free speech, freedom from excessive government intervention in daily life, going to war and so on.

I'm part of the NO2ID campaign here in the UK, campaigning against the compulsory biometric ID cards that the UK government are trying to introduce. Our main problem in finding supporters is not that people think ID cards are a good idea, just that the average member of the public out there really couldn't give a shit... about anything... as long as they have an easy life.

They don't know or care about history, they just pay their taxes, get in line and do what they are told to do. Don't dare require them to think for themselves!

It's why kids here are more than happy to skip school - why should they care, life is easy! Check another country like Uganda, where truancy is absolutely non-existent. Sure, the kids are only getting a basic education, but because life is hard and they've seen some serious shit, they appreciate every little scrap of chance that someone hands them.

People wonder why history repeats itself? It's because when you have it really easy, nobody gives enough of a shit to stop something terrible from happening, which brings the cycle back round again.

So don't be surprised that these kids don't see why freedom of speech is important - far too many of them have no cares in the world, as long as they get it easy.

Yours sincerely,
Captain Obvious

Dr Finch is particularly concerned about identity cards, as well she might be. If you live in the UK you may be interested in some closely related reading at http://www.no2id.net/ .

If Citizen ID card makes you shudder, what about ID Card or perhaps Entitlement Card? They'll be reality in the UK in a few years, if our lords and masters get their way...

Given that the UK Government have now admitted that our ID Cards will contain RFID chips, we have an even greater concern.

Certainly, there will be nothing to stop any future government tracking our day to day movements. Given the vast amount of data which our unique identity numbers will tie together, this amounts to a police state worse than even Orwell envisioned.

I agree. Bad modding decision.

I think it reflects the frustration of those of us who do not support ID cards. It seems that every single time we get into a discussion about setting up pledges, organising protests, trying to get the story out about them etc. etc., we end up covering the same old ground as to why we are against them.

Especially if the "obvious question" is framed in the context of "Why don't you want an ID card, what have you got to hide?"

(NB: I realise that this isn't the case in relation to the OP this time, but it's a conversation that I'm sure those of us on the "nay" side have had on many occasions.)

So yeah. Bad modding call. As Stan Lee says, "every issue is somebody's first." Just because we've had to go through the arguments many, many times, it doesn't mean that everybody has.

Maybe we should FP each UKID slashdot story with a link to No2ID.net just to get people up to speed on the arguments.

It's not just an ID card it is an entire database about your life that contains all sorts of personal data that governemnt intend to sell on to marketing companies to help finance.

It can be cross referenced with friends and family, entire profiles constructed of different people and ethnic groups. It will be a government record of your entire life based on physical identification from cradle to the grave and contain way about you and your life than anything previously seen.

It is open to enormous abuse, it is hugely expensive, it is way way more than the current status quo and I think a lot of people don't fully understand that.

Check out http://www.no2id.net/ for more info

There's already a campaign in the UK to try to prevent systems of this order being set up. I recommend signing up for it if you're interested in preventing an inept government stranglehold on the very concept of identity. Or if you don't fancy paying £90 for a completely useless piece of plastic.

ID Cards - we're desperately trying to stop the Government passing this Bill, along with its mass surveillance database around the end of this month. Even Tony has said now it won't make any difference to determined terrorists like the scum who blew up the London Underground.

We're hoping that the Lords will stop it and that by the time Blair will get to his favourite undemocratic tool, the Parliament Act, the public will be so against the ID scheme that he won't dare.

Note the recent announcements that a) corporations want into the Database and to force their customers to get ID Cards and b) that Clarke went to the EU ministers to talk about extending government access to our ISP trails.

As a UK citizen I am ashamed and appalled at the continuous erosion of civil liberties that have taken place during the last couple of terms of government.

B'liar is in the process of forcing through optional (year, right!) ID cards through parliament today that will cost an average of over $200/citizen (to be bourne by taxpayers of course). In addition everyone who wants to have a passport renewed will be forced to be finger-printed and iris scanned.

http://www.no2id.net/IDSchemes/faq.php
http://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/privacy/id- cards.shtml

All of these pieces of information will be stored and cross-linked with other personal details totally ignoring the data protection laws in the UK (that all businesses have to comply with and were put in place to try and prevent this sort of gradual slip into a surveillence society). In addition, the UK is the process of testing out road charging that will require all cars/busses/lorries to be fitted with a satellite tracking system so that the location of *every* vehicle continuously and this information will be available to the police.

I don't know about anybody else but this scares the hell out of me - especially with changes to the court systems to avoid the use of juries in certain cases and the 'anti-terrorism' laws (currently being contested) that allow *anyone* whom the state deems to be 'a threat to the state' to be detained without trial. I wonder whether there will be a ban on reading George Orwell's '1984' next...?

I have a young family with children in school and family here but if I had less attachments then I would be getting the hell out of here fast!

If No2ID believes important factual information is being suppressed by the media maybe a blog similar to groklaw.net could go some way to redress the balance. I am sure there are lazy journalists - if all the leg-work is done I'm sure it will receive wider coverage.

The media are gradually waking up. There's still evidence of widespread bias at the BBC though.

No2ID's own website

Spyblog ID Card section

http://www.no2id-petition.net/
I beg to differ... Read the radio button text immediately above the submit button.

"like to support the NO2ID campaign" - yeah I see your point. "Like to" is different from "do support" but it is clumsy language.

For example, even if we block the Bill, Blair has promised to introduce the same database via the "royal prerogative" that covers e-passports.

THAT is newsworthy. If backed with credible evidence that would be a dynamite headline.

Guardian article

If Blair makes a threat like that before parliament has voted it shows two things:

That Blair considers it likely that over half the MPs will oppose the bill.
That Blair does not intend to respect the democratic process.

Both of these play straight into the hands of the National ID opposition.

Yeah, if we could get anyone to take notice. Ironic really... ;)

"...it's [the ID card] usefull to prove i am who i claim to be. everytime someone here issues a check it serves as proof of identity. i know of at least a couple of thieves who were arrested because they tried to issue a check they had stolen from my aunt. the supermarket called us because they didn't had the RG card to prove they were my aunt. ..."

That's part of what puts my nose out of joint about the prospect of being issued with an ID card - I honestly can't remember the last time I was asked to confirm my identity beyond telling someone my name. My fear, and I think it is a justifiable fear, is that the introduction of cards will change this. The society that operates on a certain level of trust will become the society where many common transactions will hinge on the production of a card. Ihre papieren bitte!

"...your fear that UK government will abuse any perceived "power" such database gives only proves your distrust in UK's government. what's the point in having a democratic government that can act pretty much as a dictatorship then ? son't you think that if elected the government, you should trust them a little ?..."

I do trust the government a little. Unfortunately, they are asking, well demanding that I trust them a hell of a lot. Think about it: They are promoting legislation which will fundamentally change the relationship between citizen and state. For the first time in peacetime UK, the law abiding citizen will be answerable to the state. Yet the government first attempted to rush this legislation through parliament with limited debate and no oversight or comment from the select comittee. This was foiled by the snap election, but now the bill has returned in the current parliament, and it's just as bad.

The justifications for the introduction of the card keep changing - first it was an anti-terrorist measure, then it was to curb illegal immegration, now the latest reason is to prevent identity theft. The notion thta an ID card will have a substantive effect on any of these problems has been soundly debunked (see here for more info). It appears that at best the government does not know why they wish to impose the card and database, other than to appear tough on law and order. You really think I should trust these people that much?

"Of the 25 countries that have been most adversely affected by terrorism since 1986, eighty per cent have national identity cards, one third of which incorporate biometrics. This research was unable to uncover any instance where the presence of an identity card system in those countries was seen as a significant deterrent to terrorist activity."

"Almost two thirds of known terrorists operate under their true identity. The remainder use a variety of techniques to forge or impersonate identities. It is possible that the existence of a high integrity identity card would provide a measure of improved legitimacy for these people."

I'm quite impressed at how the anglosaxon world reacts to ID cards. They are present in most countries, and are a far cry from a fascist tool.

First off, this isn't about ID Cards. Sure, I'm not happy at the prospect of being bullied by police for exercising my freedom of speech (mostly against ID Cards), but we're having the world's biggest database built to spy on us.

Finally, it baffles me how people are so nervous about a stupid piece of paper or plastic.

See above.

On the No2ID site I read taurinities like it would cause racial discrimination,

See, the Government said it would be a scheme to combat illegal immigration. That can only happen if the police constantly pester ethnic minorities to prove their identity. So either the government was lying or it would cause racial discrimination.

fingerprint people like criminals (I have been taken fingerprints only once in my life, at the military draft visit)

Then you obviously know very little about what we're facing. We will be fingerprinted upon application for the card as well as every use of public services in the future.

and will be useless against crime. Never mind there are heaps of experience in continental Europe of criminals caught because they provided a not-good-enough fake ID (one I remember was mafia boss Madonia).

According to Time, he was caught by a phone tap.

The claim that identity theft would not be affected is simply ludicrous: the very term "identity theft" is exclusive to the anglosaxon world, as identity theft is impossible with an ID-card system; in continental Europe, we don't even talk of it.

Identity theft is a buzzword meaning transactions using someone else's financial identity - our Government has been talking about the £1.3 billion cost even though ID Cards can only prevent a mere £35 million of it.

And last but not least, how can be that people are worried about ID cards when living in countries where the government has been given insane powers to detain people without trial and rights, like in Guantanamo?

You can't be worried about 2 things at the same time? Most British people don't know about this Database, they don't know they can be locked up without trial and they don't know that the government can rewrite our entire set of laws at whim. The media seems reluctant to report these things.

I wrote to my MP twice about control orders. You have to realise that our democracy is non-existent and unless the media takes an interest, Blair can do whatever he wants. Even when the media took an interest for the last 9 years, Blair had nearly 2/3rds of the votes.

According to the no2id faq the data protection act won't be much help. Not to mention that since ID cards themselves require a new act of parliment, I would expect that act to include any required changes to the data protection act.

We've gone past the point where "only guilty people have to worry", and are approaching "innocent people have to worry too."

So true. Vigilance is the price of freedom.

You guys need to organise. In Britain, No2ID have taken 9 months to build up to a significant membership, and that's under great leadership and the threat of an Orwellian Database that we're voting on in a fortnight.

This threat is global. It is well funded and supported by Blair, Bush and God knows who else behind the scenes.

Go to US immigration and after the usual abuse for wanting to enter such a wonderful country they will take your biometric measurements and [insert miracle here] your biometrics are retrieve, hashed and compared with the values held on the card (which are authenticated by the digital signature). Everything okay - welcome to America and wipe your feet on the mat, everything not so good, please check in for the Guantanamo Express.

So far, so annoying, but not really much more of an infringement of privacy than having your passport photo scanned by some scary lady at JFK.

HOWEVER, and here is the scary bit - the UK ID card would be the link back to the National Identity Register which will contain many dozens of pieces of personal information and a complete trail of previous accesses. Is the UK government going to refuse to allow the US authorities to access that database.

If it does then we are in a world of hurt, by doing so it would blow the Data Protection Act out of the water and probably be in multiple violations of EU law.

Part of me says it couldn't happen - the UK would refuse to allow personal data to go to a country with such poor data control regimes as the US - but then I think of the way we rolled over to send airline passenger data into the maw of Homeland Security.

So I hope all Brits who are worried have signed up to No2ID?

Mike.

For those interested in some of the counter ID campaigning, http://www.no2id.net/ and their petition at http://www.no2id-petition.net/ may be worth a look.

"This national ID is exactly the same. Do you really think that the Terrorists will go to the DMV and say, "Hi, I'm Osama Bin Laden, I'd like my Driver's license today. Thank you?""

Actually, yes I do. I think they will do it again and again and again until they have all the cards they need.

UK anti-ID card pages:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/ican/A2561834
and
http://www.no2id.net/

Here's some prepared earlier.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/ican/A2561834

http://www.no2id.net/

Where's the debate on this?

The "New Labour" government got back in the UK (with a reduced minority) so are going to try to introduce ID cards here, but at least there's going to be a hell of a debate on it now they won't be able to steamroller it through.

http://www.no2id.net/

The first's the model the French governement is going for. The UK government on the other hand (unless we stop it: NO2ID) will be trying the Big Brother Central approach. It says it wants online comparison--and an audit trail--for everything in life down to buying a mobile phone or renting a room. Quite how all those scanners and lines are supposed to be kept secure it doesn't seem to have given much thought to. But (as far as anyone can guess given that it's all secret, and the draft legislation empowers any future Home Secretary to make the law up as he goes along) it looks like the cost and liability will be made into someone else's cost and someone else's liability.

> May I suggest that anyone in the UK who finds these plans... disturbing... lets someone know about it.

Additionally, sign up for No2ID's newsletter. I also suggest we vote tactically.

>Can somebody explain to me:
>Why extra biometric data is necessary, and

Sure. For something to be necessary, it means that life would be untenable without it. Obviously then, such data is unnecessary.

So the question is: "Is it worth the consequences?"

It's interesting to note that only governments have tried to do this. Banks, for example, have a huge profit motive for ensuring you own the money you're withdrawing yet not one has ever imposed an iris or fingerprint scan on its customers.

The police may have a need to know who I am if I'm breaking the law. The government by comparison has no need to know who I am. Until recently, most people would have argued that they have no business knowing who we are - that their job is merely to serve us and do as they're told. I'm not entirely sure how this position has reversed.

>Why so many people think extra biometric data is more abusive than the current biometric data stored on passports?
>
>A lot of the identity card/biometrics scare I hear seems nothing more than fear of the unfamiliar versus technology for technology's sake. This just seems like more of the same.

I'm thankful that you're open-minded and curious enough to ask. Most people are not.

The British scheme will also assign a public Identity number to every person, an action which is explicitly outlawed by the German constitution. If ID cards are to become the defacto form of identification, it won't take long for most companies to index your information through this number. Inevitably, the mass of data collected on us becomes linked (telephone, internet, shopping, medical) and can be used to directly or indirectly blackmail people.

All government schemes are eventually abused. How do tyrannical dictators gain power? Through propaganda and silencing opposition.

There is plenty more if you're interested. For example, the British scheme is expected to cost £10+ billion over 10 years. I hope you can think of more worthy causes for £10+ billion...

> remember the Madrid bombings

... weren't stopped by Spain's ID Card system.

> But the reality, which I've experienced numerous times, is that you can enter your bank's local branch, and withdraw money just by telling them your account number (which is known and stored in probably insecure databases by lots of organizations. LexisNexis, here we come !). This gives me the creeps.

Really? Mine needs a card, signature or other form of proof.

> For *prescription-only* drugs, which of course the pharmacist shouldn't hand to whoever comes in. Sure, told this way, it sounds less orwellian. D'oh !

"Sorry Mr Steinberg, you can't have your insulin because your ID check isn't working for some reason."

> how do you check the identity of who has done what if you've no records ?

OK, give us a list now of your real name, your phone number, any file sharing you've done, any porn sites you've accidentally visited...

Or perhaps you'd rather some people DIDN'T know what you've done.

> I've got the strange feeling you're confusing "freedom" and "anonymity". These are two different and unrelated concepts. For instance, if there was a law against writing under a pseudonym, it wouldn't mean you have no freedom of speech. Just that you need to speak under your real name. Of course, it's better when you can do it anonymously, but it's not necessarily related.

Not necessarily related implies that they are related in some situations.

If you have an open mind, please keep reading:

No2ID

In the UK, it appears that, having had the government's draconian ID card plans rejected (for the time being), they're planning to start the biometric-isation process early, by adding compulsory fingerprints to our passports. However, it also appears that this doesn't need democratic consent - they can just do it whenever they feel like. Oh, and bury it halfway through a busy election campaign too.

These fingerprints will, you guessed it, be stored on a gigantic database that the police can consult whenever they feel like.

May I suggest that anyone in the UK who finds these plans... disturbing... lets someone know about it.

But I am also working with No2ID in a desperate fight to avoid losing my country to some autocrats. It's hard to research which countries still have functioning democracies so thanks for the NH lead.

BTW, the UK government also passed a law which grants unlimited powers for any minister (including Whips!) who verbally declares a state of emergency/tyranny.