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I realised that when I started recommending opera (www.opera.com) to people as an alternative to IE. As long as you don't mind a few minor things not working (odd image loading, java not implemented right &c &c), it's all gravy.

So, I think that if Netscape/Mozilla is going to succeed, the developers need to start concentrating on efficiency rather than feature bloat. Don't get me wrong, the skins are way cool, but what is it costing us?

Now that Opera has a linux beta out, I may have to go back to it even though I don't like the user interface. At least it loads when I want it to instead of when it feels like getting around to it.

Folks, the time has come, or rather it has passed. Netscape lost the war, freed its source, and now exploits the hard labor of worldwide coders for its own benefit. Our predecessors couldn't stop plutocrats from gaining unwanted capital, but we can: don't use Netscape! Don't wanna use IE? Mozilla's still pretty good in its most recent incarnations, and Opera works well with only minor plugin compatiblity problems :) RISE UP!

"As long as we sanction the bum on the plush/
The other will always be there/
But rid ourselves of the bum on the plush/
And the other will disappear!

So do yourselves a wonderful favor/
Get rid of the wasted crush/
Don't worry about the bum on the rods/
Get rid of the bum on the plush."

-- The Two Bums, J. Hill


"Blow up your TV/Throw away your paper/
Move to the country/Build you a home"

Opera also has dozens of features that the other guys seem to have missed. I was so excited when I heard that Mozilla/NS 6.0 had a 'zoom' function...then I saw they only changed the text size. Opera can zoom into or out of a web page, changing text size, table sizes, and resampling any inline images. It also has a new 'fullscreen' mode that's amazing...I'm wondering if I can sneak Opera into work to replace Powerpoint for presentations. By comparison, NS 6.0's new features seem mostly limited to cookie control and changing skins.

I downloaded NS 6.0 for NT this morning. Some bugs in the user interface, but I haven't found any fatal bugs yet. It's nice and I might use it for work (where NS is allowed and Opera is not), but the NS/Mozilla tech is not good enough to replace the Opera browser I use at home.

netscape is a pile of shit - at one time is was the best browser, now it is a small shell of its former greatness, clinging to its very existence - just look at the statistics and look at the useragents hitting your pages (if you develop pages for non-geeks ...) ... let us examine the reasons for the shitiness of ns?

• illegal operation performed - get it all the time with 4.6 version - in fact, "clean" html (certified by the w3c scripts ...) cause a given page to just crash the browser mysteriously ...
• inconsistent css rendering - it is one thing to "not support" a css feature, but to have features wildly and inconsistently supported makes it tough to develop web pages with css ... maybe it is a utopian dream to believe in the power of style sheets, but the existence of netscape browsers force me to (1)code special sections for ns users, (2) curse ns to no end, as there is not even a simple chart that can be drawn to indicate which tags work, which do not ... so trying to find a "common denominator" is a brutal task
• slower rendering engine, though i don't quite think it is the memory hog that IE is ...
• in attempting to placate the beginner-average user, ns lost me long ago - i hate using the mouse and every new ns version seems more mouse reliant ... i tried the new beta and was unimpressed, though i realize that i may have be too snappy in judgement, conditioned by promises of past releases that did not impress me ...

it's late, and i can conjure up some more distasteful morsels but what is the point ... there are other alternatives than MSIE - Opera for one, which is my personal choice - i realize many browsing the web on linux boxes may feel that they are stuck with ns, but it seems to me that with new releases of opera beta 4 for linux and the KDE browser that i would much rather use those than be sentenced to time with a crappy program like ns

you ns afficianados will flame me away i guess ... i am entitled to my feelings right - it makes it all the more sad that i really wish that ns never relinquished its top share to m$, maybe that's what makes it so much more disheartening ...

Opera User Definable Buttons

True, but Opera Software wrote Opera for Windows from scratch five years ago - and it's undergone major rewrites. And now they have versions for Win32, Linux, Palm and several other platforms (see the 'Ports' section of www.opera.com when the site's recovered from the slashdotting).
It's not a too bad browser, small faults in it, but it's worth getting (and registering).
Richy C.
--

The Sharkey's Extreme article is spread out over several pages to force you to see ads which you are probably not seeing, since you have trained yourself not to look.

The following links are pages that show Intel CPU plans, and are useful for someone planning a computer purchase who wants to avoid early obsolescence. (The spaces in Page X are put in by a bug in the Slashdot code.):

Pag e 7, Pag e 8, Pag e 9, Pa ge 10, Pa ge 11, Pa ge 12, Pa ge 13

Those who use the Opera browser can load all the pages simply by holding down the control and shift keys while left-clicking on the links above.

The initial name for one of Intel's chips is Tualatin, not Tulatin. Sharkey's Extreme has it wrong in the first part of the article.

This is funny:

Tualatin Valley Fire & Rescue misspelled its own name! Proof of this is that Tualatin is spelled correctly in the medallion.

opera

1. why?
2. faster
3. more intutitive interface, at least for those who "drive" primarlily with the keyboard instead of the mouse
4. smaller - less use of memory
5. nearly fully CSS compliant - more compliant than IE - now can do 95% of all (j|java)script sites well ...
6. easy ability to override ugly web design layouts and substitute your own styles at press of a key
7. not made by M$

1. Opera
2. gecko
3. icab

P.S.: anybody knows why k-meleon 0.1 wants to act as a server?

... yes, I'm gonna "pimp" the Opera browser again ...

Why do I prefer Opera over MSIE, even though I had to shell out 18 schmolies (student price) for a copy?

• For someone who finds keyboard controls (old time hacker who is used to command line interfaces ...), OPERA is much more suited to me - using [1], [2] to swap windows, [a], [q] to move from hyperlink to hyperlink, [0], [9] to zoom in and out, [shift][enter] to open new window it "drives" much easier - granted, it takes some time to get comfy with the dashboard but it has speeded up my surfing 10 fold - not having to open a new instance of the browser (like MSIE) every time I want a new window is the way to go ...
• I could give a rat's ass about java script though Opera supports most flavors of javascript (or the standard ecma-script just fine) there is an occasional site that employs a MS-centric navigational trick but even NS has troubles with that - only other glitch is on some sites where they have sloppy code on the select box change on selected item and include no GO button ...
• java support provided, but again I stay away from java and javascript sites ... even between various versions of MSIE, the results arn't consistent ...
• Opera provides the most support for the CSS models - even according to the W3C folks ... Netscape browsers give developers trying to use CSS fits not only with its partial support, but more tragically, its inconsistent results that cause GPF crashes or render pages totally unreadable ...
• Opera is indeed customizable, and allows the user to control much more options than available on the other browsers ... all new programs look "hokey" at first, until you give it a whirl ...
• Although, it's not the biggest feature bonus, I love that when I zoom in/out, that images also zoom in and out ...
• Easy ability to turn off images, or substitute my own CSS or settings if I visit a site that seems to be ignorant of basic design concepts ...
• I am willing to pay to use a product that competes with M$, especially one that I feel is a superior program ...

Slightly off-topic, but the link above to Transparent Society triggered Opera's third-party-cookie detector, thus allowing me to defeat the web-bug placed in the article page.

The button to toggle image loading is funky also.

Think I'm becoming a convert.

I've also been using Galeon, and yes, admittedly it's rather impressive. I've never used Netscape 4.anything on my linbox/laptop/current computer/whatever - morals dictate against it :) - but Galeon is defintely able to get the job done faster than Moz, mostly because it doesn't have the rendering engine running four or five different times over just to get the UI working.

I've also been trying out the Opera tech preview, and, Qt notwithstanding, it's even more impressive in terms of speed. From one alpha to another, it can fairly easily beat Galeon on my comp, and Mozilla... it makes Mozilla look like frozen molasses. Of course, it's also based on Qt (good for some, bad for some), closed, proprietary, shareware, crashprone as any alpha app, and still uses an MDI interface at the moment. But at least for the last two it'll get better... :)

Oh, and what's happened to Konqueror? I must have tried at least four times to get that damn thing working on my laptop (and trying to avoid having to install the whole of KDE2 beta for the first two tries), and each time it just doesn't want to start up. Might there be a plan of some kind to take the various sundry libraries that Konqueror uses out of KDE and repackage it into a seperate application? Something like that would be very nice...

-Jo Hunter

Personally, I prefer Opera for the PC, and Fresco and Oregano for the RISC PC. Okay, neither of them are Mozilla cores, but they do what I need a web browser to do (browse the web). I use a mail client for mail...

Richy C.
--

Yep, it does. I never have a day without NS crashing and the underlying OS (RH Linux) only gets rebooted when new hardware is added, so it ain't the problem.

On windows the only problem we have in work with NS is that it does not display HTML4 very well and its Javascript parser throws errors up on some machines and not others. Oh, and no version understands style-sheets beyond the very basic options.

Other than that...it still sucks.

My personal advice is to use Opera.

TWW

Moderators, please forgive me for veering offtopic, but this lad needs to be enlightened.

There are several alternative browsers on the market. They're all maturing slowly and some have even got features that Exploder doesn't already, despite Micro$oft's corporate feature bloating.

Konquerer, part of the KDE Project, is another good example of an underdog browser that's starting to take hold in the market. It's support for standards which make a viable browser are almost unmatched at the moment (in the alternative browser market).

Xemacs has a Browser called W3. It supports the majority of standards that make a viable Browser, and is written in Elisp, thus compatible with the Xemacs editor.

Of course, we can't forget Mozilla. It's the open-source version of Netscape 5. Probably the best browser out at the moment aside from Exploder/Win32, it runs on many platforms and is the most likely browser to take over the Exploder market share. It already enjoys a large market share in the UNIX world, just under that of Netscape 4.x. This thing supports nearly everything, including Alpha channels. Watch out for it.

Its hard to sell a product when your competitor is giving theirs away for free.Just ask Netscape.

Ask Opera Software. Supply a better product, and they will pay.

vr

1) We ask you not to send bug reports to us, since we have enough bugs to work on, anyway. As soon as we hit BETA stage, we will open up to bug reports.

4) Qt 2.1 is no longer an alpha, it is a released product.

5) If you have questions, please ask in opera.linux We try to answer as time permits.

Note: I am an Opera Software employee, but the opinion expressed here are my own

here

opera.com is dreadfully slow (prolly /.ed). I found the response at opera.no to be much better.

Does Opera support Java/SSL/JavaScript/DHTML though?

http://www.opera.com/new.html lists the improvements in the current beta for Windows (4.0b5), and JavaScript 1.3 and ECMAScript are mentioned. I'm not sure if they mean "Netscape's JavaScript 1.3 object model" when they say JS v1.3 though. Since they separate ECMAScript and JavaScript it wouldn't surprise me if they do.

Support for the W3C DOM level 1 (and 2) is non-existant in the Windows beta as far as I've been able to tell (from doing simple tests).

They're aware of the problem though, several Opera users (including myself) are keeping an eye on these features and bug the Opera staff whenever possible.

Somewhere down the line Opera will have JavaScript/ECMAScript and DOM-support. How far down the line it seems that nobody knows though.

Whuuu? M14 runs like a champ on my PII-233, even with Windows on 64 MB. Suffice it to say that your experiences don't jibe with mine. Have you tried looking at Opera as an alternative? I know that quite a few people are very pleased with it.

The US is the laughing stock of the world. We took one of the most successful companies in the history of commerce to court, to punish them for being too successful.

No, actually, the European Union is also investigating MSFT for anti-trust, and if we don't break them up, they will. They're not laughing at us, they're sneering at our wimpiness in following our own laws.

The browser is irrelevant

Yeah, we'll all be using Opera anyway. Either that or Mozilla.

Hell, from what he said, how would you even know there is a release version that isn't for Linux?

A lucky guess perhaps?
--

Mmm...or perhaps we can ask Jeff about why Mozilla and Netscape aren't html 4.0 compliant also.
Style sheets are one of the most useful things available today, but, they are unusable in major websites, thanks to Netscape's shitty rendering of them.
Too bad Opera is so damned weird. Dump the extra crap Opera, and give us that small, fast, compliant browser...

Btw, if you folks haven't seen IE for the Mac, you are really missing out. It is absolutely the best browser available.

"Don't try to confuse the issue with half truths and gorilla dust."
Bill McNeal (Phil Hartman)

Other options:

1. Use another browser. I recommend Opera.
   
2. Install IDcide. Seems to work for me.
   
3. Use a "cookie managing" anonymizer like PrivadaProxy or Freedom. They aren't free...I prefer Freedom...and not just because the link includes my affiliate ID :-)
   
4. Use a "cookie managing" Web-based proxy. If you are going to surf promiscuously (whatever that means) where this exploit might rear its head, you can use The Cloak which is distinguished from Anonymizer et. al. in that it caches cookies remotely. Bandwidth limiting and you have to remember to use it, but it's free of charge.
   
5. Live with it until the fix is in.

   A proxy comparison chart
   

A program should never be an exact copy of its version on another platform. Different platforms have different design ideas and different standards. I've seen a few apps (namely CodeWarrior (especially the Palm version, but also the Java version), QuickTime) that are awesome on the Mac get ported to Windows and become horrible. Why? The developers tried to make the program be the same exact way in Windows as it is on the Mac.

That just isn't right. MacOS and Windows have different widgets. MacOS has one static menu bar - Windows has a menu bar for each window. MacOS uses the many different windows approach, Windows uses the one window approach. (MDI is an excellent idea, by the way. I love Opera.) And so on.

Now that I've begun... does anyone feel this way about Mozilla? It follows the Web standards beautifully, but I feel that the idea of using their own widgets isn't the best solution... Under MacOS, the window has its own menu bar, breaking the whole concept of the MacOS interface. Under Windows, the widgets don't respond well to common input, constantly lose focus, etc. I haven't tested it under Linux yet, since I don't use it a lot. I'll test it under MacOS X soon. I realize that the software isn't exactly in the final stages yet, but I loathe the thought that this maybe how it will stay.

--

Opera has had PNG support since about version 3.50. The current stable version is 3.62, which has decent PNG support, and better CSS than Netscape 4.72.

Did you hear about Crusoe? The CPU market is ready to offer a small/low price processor with very-low power consumption. Memory?. Well, there are new models in production. Storage?. See Iomega Click!. And, you don't need a 35MB browser!!!!! There are very small browser with a lot of features, like Opera Maybe, the reason would be "economic" (in terms of competivity with other hardware) and no technological

first off, i hope that the new "netscape" browser is better than the current offering, as the current offering really sucks IMHO - not only does it suck but i have to code around it for quite some time as folks are going to be using these versions for some time to come ... incomplete support of css/table html formatting, goofy interpretation of slightly irregular html, etc ... the ms ie latest reendition (though it pains o so much ...) is vastly superior but i find opera browser to be kick ass over both of them - dl it, give it a try, but before you start using do a ctrl-b to print the keyboard hotkey command ref and get used to web cruising with the keyboard ... i can't go back to ie now, though there are some sites (usually those dependent on ms features or java plugins) i have to load ns or ms for ... though i still haven't loaded the java plugin ... also, opera handles the ecma standard "javascript" but gets confused about some of the ms specific dialects ...

regarding pbs, i still think there is a place for it - much quality programming - nova, frontline, specials ... for the right wing radicals who think it is lefty liberal deal, i have to dispute that as it seems that public tv has had to become more responsive to needs of corporate sponsors (kind of contradicts the whole "public" in public tv ...) ... but still, nevertheless, public tv and npr serve a big gap - here in phoenix, radio is a crowded wasteland of lots of nothing but npr is a steady beacon - always something to listen to with no commercials ... l8

I submitted this, but who knows if it'll ever show up around here... So I figure I'll mention it here, too.

OS/2 definately supports TCP/IP, I think you must have a very old or stripped version, others have posted links of use on that issue. I haven't run it in several years, primarily because it supports so little hardware (I loved it but 9/10 machines I wanted to run it on turned out to be incompatible unfortunately,) but back then it had great networking support, can't imagine it's just disappeared.

So far as a browser, let me recommend Opera - the 16 bit windows version should run just fine under OS/2, and a fully native OS/2 port is in the works and expected to be available soon. The 16 bit version is up to date and very usable - I still have one box running Windows 3.1 (it's for my dad, he's used to it and doesn't want to take the time to learn Linux or Windows9x) and it works great.

The worst of all are the sites that set the background tho white without setting a foreground, forcing me to leave my web defaults black on grey when I use Windows as white on blue. I wish I could have a browser that ignores the setting in that case.

Using one right now. Opera. I have it set to white text on blue background, which I prefer. When I hit a page that sets one colour but not the other (ick) or worse yet one that sets both and makes the page totally unreadable, there's a button to disable document settings. Works great on slashdot (text is set to black, background isn't set - if my background was set to black it would be totally unreadable without override, as it is it's just not pretty ;^)

The linux port is coming right along - I can't wait. I love linux but I find myself rebooting to use the web - once you've used opera netscape just is not acceptable anymore.

It also notifies you of invalid cookies being set and why they're invalid. I tried using Hotmail and Opera reported 4 or 5 invalid cookies.

And if that's not enough, you can always turn to the Internet Junkbuster for the ultimate filtering solution.

--

What we really need is a list of domains and subnets to which we may silently refuse cookies. Banning cookies on IMG requests isn't enough, as many of these sites use mini-javascript bits or other embedded crap in addition to images.

Just as a side note: Opera 4 Beta has such a domain- or host-based filter. And even more: Besides that, you can explicitly disable "third party cookies".
Hopefully, Mozilla will have something similar...

The milestones of Mozilla I looked at are impressive, but not very stable...

Soon there will be Opera for linux - a browser that is fully compliant with all standards, uses very little memory - they try to make its mem usage below 5M!!!
Wish I could say that of Netscape or IE!!
Opera isn't opensource, but what do you expect it's a company - it needs to make money. Those people have to live too, they are not going to throw away their company secrets...
As long as its stable, there is a good support and I can download patches now and then, I am willing to pay for a browser that doesn't spill my time, CPU power and memory (just my money :^).
Whenever I have to surf on windooze, I use Opera - it's fast and easy! - and win crashes less (now just every 5 minutes instead of every 2)

Don't need Mozilla yet - I'll try it now and then, and if it's stable enough - I'll use it.

Could you link to www.opera.com[?]

I've added the link to www.opera.com as per your request.

I know of at least three other browsers that support JavaScript. OmniWeb for Mac OS X, iCab pre1.9 (Mac Only), and Opera which is cross-platform. There are probably others too.

Look at the dearth of inovation we've seen in the browser software area as soon as everyone realized that there was no money to be made there.

The mozilla browser project is full of innovations, such as XUL (the cross platform UI in XML), XPCOM (cross-platform common object model), RDF, full standards compliance, etc. MS is busy working on the 5.5 release of MSIE that will probably raise the bar once again. Finally, Opera is still making money selling their lean, mean, utilitarian browser.

So where is this so called dearth of browser innovation?

I have ordered a new cable provider, and will cancel my Time Warner cable as soon as Americast is in place. It ain't a solution, but it's an acceptable "think globally, act locally" patch.

For a brief period, I was willing to cut AOL some slack because they left ICQ the hell alone (okay, I will grant that I run ICQ 0.95 or something like that, because I refused to upgrade after AOL bought ICQ). After what happened the last time I upgraded Netscape (force-installing AOL IM on my machine and neither asking my permission nor providing a graceful uninstall), though, AOL promptly returned to its natural position as emergency backup Antichrist of the digital world. I went out and bought Opera that night (IE was never an option, of course).

A media behemoth the size of AOL scares the biologically processed waste matter out of me. TW was already too damn big, and the compression of controlling entities over media should rightfully scare any civil libertarian. There are too few companies controlling too many information flows -- this is not the hallmark of a healthy democracy. Remember CBS's spiking of the tobacco story: it's not unreasonable to think that AOL may try to wield that kind of power over CNN. And consider this: how long will AOL users have before the Time Warner part of the new company demands expunging of all MP3s from their websites?

The only thing about this news that's remotely amusing is watching Microsoft scream "Look! It's a competitor!" Yeah, right, Bill. Talk to me when Steve Case brings out an OS.

ikaros, definitely worried.

"As noted by the version number, this is still an Alpha release."

"...this is a technology preview, and not a beta..."

All that aside: If you go to Opera and you happen to run Windows or BeOS you'll find new versions there as well.
Bugs, tech discussions, etc. can be found on theirdiscussions page (most of the links there are newsgroups, which works rather well).

All that aside: If you go to Opera and you happen to run Windows or BeOS you'll find new versions there as well.
Bugs, tech discussions, etc. can be found on theirdiscussions page (most of the links there are newsgroups, which works rather well).

All that aside: If you go to Opera and you happen to run Windows or BeOS you'll find new versions there as well.
Bugs, tech discussions, etc. can be found on theirdiscussions page (most of the links there are newsgroups, which works rather well).

Hey, when did they become opera.com. They used to be "operasoftware" and "opera" really had something to do with singing.

Speaking of Opera, a version 3.61 for Windows was released yesterday. There isn't a list of bugs fixed from version 3.60, but one visible change is that there's no toolbar in full screen mode any longer. You can download the update from the Opera Software website.

Opera is a great browser for power users. It's the fastest browser around, lean enough to fit on a single floppy, has so many keyboard shortcuts you hardly need a mouse, and supports more CSS than anything short of Gecko. You can toggle off images per window, open pages in the background, or call up a window listing all the hyperlinks on a page.

There are many features of Opera I'd like to see Mozilla adopt. I'm looking forward to the X11 port, which is still in development.

Speaking of Opera, a version 3.61 for Windows was released yesterday. There isn't a list of bugs fixed from version 3.60, but one visible change is that there's no toolbar in full screen mode any longer. You can download the update from the Opera Software website.

Opera is a great browser for power users. It's the fastest browser around, lean enough to fit on a single floppy, has so many keyboard shortcuts you hardly need a mouse, and supports more CSS than anything short of Gecko. You can toggle off images per window, open pages in the background, or call up a window listing all the hyperlinks on a page.

There are many features of Opera I'd like to see Mozilla adopt. I'm looking forward to the X11 port, which is still in development.

It would be interesting to see Gecko embedded in a text-only browser. Lynx is nice and all, but would it be possible to get "real" layout with text, color (on displays that support color), etc? That would rock. Often I just want to skip all the graphics, animations, and other junk and get to the content.

The Opera for Linux team might have something similar in the works. We'll have to see.

It would be interesting to see Gecko embedded in a text-only browser. Lynx is nice and all, but would it be possible to get "real" layout with text, color (on displays that support color), etc? That would rock. Often I just want to skip all the graphics, animations, and other junk and get to the content.

The Opera for Linux team might have something similar in the works. We'll have to see.

Speaking of Opera, a version 3.61 for Windows was released yesterday. There isn't a list of bugs fixed from version 3.60, but one visible change is that there's no toolbar in full screen mode any longer. You can download the update from the Opera Software website.

Opera is a great browser for power users. (There are quick keyboard shortcuts for everything, and commands to do things like open pages in the background, or display a window of all the links on a page.) It also has far and away the best style sheet support short of Gecko. However, the Linux/X11 port is still in development.