Slashdot Mirror
IE 5.5 Tracking Default Bookmarks
Paul Guinnessy writes: "Has anyone else noticed that the default bookmarks in Microsoft Explorer 5.5 do not go directly to a site such as cnn.com, but instead go via a redirection via Microsoft. I'm just a bit curious (and a bit uncomfortable) to know what they will gain in gathering this sort of personal information. " There's been a lot of slimey stuff with browsers (remember the What's Related problems not so long ago?). I guess I'm glad Mozilla is coming of age. As long as Web sites don't start doing something stupid like requiring IE... oh... wait.
And this is just the very tip of the iceberg of the shit we know about.
Coming across what appears to be, at first glance, another MS ploy amongst the thousands that we've already seen, it's not hard to make that assumption that they're at it again. And if they appear to be at it again, it behooves /. to try to get to the details. and if there's a little backlash of any sort, it's just the Slashdaughters demanding accuracy out of /. and wanting to prove how bright they are.
And you could have taken advantage of that by gently nudging, saying something like "Just because it's MS, don't assume the worst!" That might have prevented the next MS expose. But you went off the deep end. trying to paint MS as Apple-like and noble, which is quite frankly naive. Just a few penniless guys in their garage -- out of Harvard with rich, connected and powerful parents like the rest of us. No more dirty tricks than any other company? Pfaugghh! They tried to play dirty tricks during their own federal anti-trust trial!
And as far as Win2000 goes, since MS-DOS 2.1, the hype always says that the next MS operating system is always supposed to be the "really good one". There are 65535 bugs that tell us to reserve granting that title to this one.
Study history, pal, or you'd better keep good backups.
--
Try this link instead? (-:
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
But this is more of an indictment of Windows than IE. If IE ran on Linux, you'd see the same behavior as with Netscape.
The only things I have ever seen "crash" Linux are games using the SVGAlib. Even then Linux is still running, just the console is totally fscked and you have to telnet in.
where there's fish, there's cats
You can turn it off. In 5.5 (which is buggy crap and they should have stayed where they were, IMHO) you go to Tools | Options | Advanced and uncheck the Automatically Check for Internet Explorer Updates . . . etcetera etcetera. Earlier versions are similar -- they haven't rearranged the menu system that much in the last couple of releases.
Nah, Bill is just using this re-routing to pump up hits on M$ websites. ;-)
What those crazy guys in Redmond won't do for a buck!
Vote Naked 2000
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
This whole thing is hardly original... everybody's darling Netscape have been doing this for years.
This will be useful prior art for when Microsoft try to patent the idea, so let's hope they incorporate it in mozilla under the GPL.
Of course, none of this would ever have happened if Sun had stayed out of the software business and left language development to the professionals.
sites are moving (or ceasing exist while new ones emerges) from time to time (some more often, som less).
browser can be there for a long time (longer than sites).
so to prevent broken built in bookmarks in browser it's reasonable to store redirectors in browser (URLs maintained by browser supplier which redirets you to desired functional site).
of course, there is another question whether special bookmars supplied by browser vendor are good especialy if they have some special advantages over user's bookmarks (i.e. non removeble, better positioned, ...).
hany
I'll tell ya why. When I use Netscape and click on my /. bookmark, it takes me right there. Same with my
Freefall bookmark, my
User Friendly bookmark, my
news bookmark, and even my
play bookmark. Direct. No redirects.
But now Micro$oft comes along and says, "Hey, we can make money off this too!" and starts doing redirects with their strong-armed browser market. Load balancing? Hit tracking? Bullshit. Let MY ISP deal with load balancing, or the sites that I'm actually going to (notice none of them are M$). Ditto with hit tracking.
Basically, M$ has no NEED to redirect. They just decided to do it and grab MORE information from those who happen to use IE (not me!!) and yet further bend the Internet public over and have their way with us.
Mr. Ska
Perhaps we should be talking about the various bugs in IE 5.5, like its inability to consistently load pages fully and its overall poor performance compared to IE 5.01.
Microsoft has released a crappy product (surprise!) and Slashdot is using up bandwidth to talk about a "feature" that's been in IE for a long time.
Steve Magruder
Steve Magruder, Metro Foodist
This is a link from a /. banner ad, and it redirects you to another site! Oh my god! Evil Andover is tracking my browsing!
Why is it inherently evil when Microsoft does it?
Well, you are on Slashdot. Home of the paranoid Linux faithful and poorly filtered "news" articles.
Do you need more of an explanation?
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
"And like that
Check again. I ahve set it to about:blank. The browser goes to microsoft's web site and then to my blank page.
Erm, could it be because Microsoft are tracking which sites you visit that have nothing to do with them at all? I mean with a banner, the site you are clicking from is going to want to know how many people clicked so they can get paid... Or are you implying that Microsoft are getting paid click-through from the default favourites? I would have thought it would be the other way round, companies paying Microsoft to have their site in the default favourites. Of course Microsoft could be providing statistics back to the default favourite sites so that they can see how much value they are getting for their investment. This is shifting things from the web-page right into the app... I don't care, who are the /.ers that use IE5.5 anyway? Don't they know this is Linux country ;-)
this is some site selling personal protection items (don't ask how I stumbled upon that one)
And our intranet was IE only in practice for weeks.
I agree that a web agency who does a IE only site makes a lousy job. unless the customer specifically said "skip Netscape I'll not pay for that"
See my other post in this thread.
I agree that time is running out for Mozilla.
All opinions are my own - until criticized
> Here is a typical conversation between a web site developer and a customer...
:)
This rings soooo true.
I develop on linux so I'm damned well going to support netscape, and supporting ie goes without saying.. as for the rest.. well.. netscape's available for most platforms, my time is limited and my boss wants unportable features on the client side. I try to argue for the lowest common denominator, but I don't always win. Sorry, opera and lynx, I'd love to do things right but I gotta eat.
I hope gecko gets into every nook and cranny eventually, and explorer dies an embarrassing death. How cool would it be to defeat a browser bug by going through it's source?
Software patents delenda est.
If you want to rig the tally counter:
x &target=http://www.slashdot.org
watch wget http://www.microsoft.com/isapi/redir.dll?prd=linu
this makes a request to microsoft every two seconds. It doesn't do the redirection, but just makes the request from microsoft's site.
You need to knock the WWW off the front of the slashdot link or it may drop your preferences. http://www.microsoft.com/isapi/redir.dll?prd=linux &target=http://slashdot.org
there is a restriction of 16x16 pixels or something, and I think it only works with IE...
It only hurts when you survive
Just out of curiousity, how do you get those custom icons(like the lowercase g for geocities pages) next to your bookmarks? I always wanted to do a custom one for my site.
Me being paranoid, I wonder if MS is checking for a new version or if Bill is getting an email that says, I too, am watching jenna16.mpg. So I setup my firewall to prevent that connection.
Just ta' be safe, you know.
Small potatoes make the steak look bigger.
I've been using IE since version 2.something on windows and was there for `midnight madness' downloading the brand new 3.0
The first thing I noticed when I had it downloaded is that none of the things in the links toolbar went exactly where they said they were going. Second thing I did was to delete all of them.
Well AFAIK, IE4 and above have always used rediriection thru a redir.dll file for all their links. In at even on the website many links go thru that. BTW is this a FP? vinod
There've been a few comments about the kosherness of redirection (for tracking) on banner ads, because it's important to audit/track your advertisement redirects. Well, the default links are (I'm sure) paid advertisements as well. Why wouldn't Microsoft track their usage, to know how much to bill the linkees?
It would seem to me that some company out there is always trying to abuse their product's market share by doing little things like this. The question that must be asked, is does anyone really expect this to change without legislation? With the community seemingly wanting the government out of ANYTHING to do with the Internet, this would not be done without resistance.. Oh well.
Matt
Don't take life so seriously; it isn't permanent.
My homepage is on an intranet also. The server does not have a fully qualified name however. My homepage is set to http://myservername/ If what you are saying is true, microsoft would not be able to redirect my browser back to the homepage. Also I still have automatically check for Internet explorer upadates check in the advanced options(although i just uncheched it) Another side note: Yahoo uses a redirect similar to this on their homepage. If you go to www.yahoo.com, then hover the mouse over the link for yahoo mail, the URL is http://www.yahoo.com/homet?http://mail.yahoo.com
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Yeah 220, 221. Whatever it takes! - Mr. Mom
Actually, the 'nice' setting refers only to CPU time. Prioritizing bandwidth is a very tricky topic. There are various methods of packet queue ordering (deciding which packet will be the next one out), and it is virtually impossible to prioritize incoming packets.
So it would be much easier to make it sleep 10 seconds between runs.
Well, then they could make the client download the links every time it starts, once every day/week whatever.
They don't have to redirect for that, but as far as I'm concerned, IE might send info about every page one visits to MS. Has anyone checked with netstat under IE on Solaris?
THey certainly don't seem to mind looking really, really bullish.
:wq!
Via http://home.netscape.com/bookmark/(browserversion)
I probably use the web less than you then, but I've probably looked at about 30-50 new sites a week for the last 5 years, 30% of the time in NS, and I've never been locked out. Must be lucky I suppose.
But "arrogant crap"?! I feel fairly well qualified to talk about what clients want from a website. The view from the development side is completely different. I've worked on tons of web projects and one thing I've learned is that you have to specify exactly what browsers you're supporting. Clients don't care about NS until their aunt / sponsors / children look at the site and can't see it. Then they ring you up and demand to know what's wrong. And not just on NS, also on IE3.02, IE4.5 on a Mac, just about whatever ancient or badly written browser that's ever been made. As long as NS has more than 10% of the morket, 99% of my clients will care about it.
When you type a url that doesn't exist
IE5 contacts MSN and then displays the Cannot find server page.
Is this the same? I've noticed that when I connect up, and go to the first site, it'll go to microsoft.com, check to see if I have the latest version of IE, then go to the site designated.
Maybe someone's just a bit paranoid?
If that's with the default bookmarks only, the issue is not with microsoft, but with yourself. I mean, of course the default bookmarks are whatever microsoft wants them to be. If you want Yahoo as a bookmark, bookmark them yourself.
If we stop and think for two seconds I believe the answer is quite obvious. It is likely, though without having some inside information I cannot know, that they are using the number of visits to these sites as a way of billing their clients for what is effectively 'portal' services. Microsoft increases traffic to these sites, the sites gain more advertising revenue and so pay Microsoft per visitor. Of course it could they are using the information for other purposes....:)
Powered by onion juice.
"My opinions are my own, and I've got *lots* of them!"
Hey, don't go too hard on Marketing. They're how Netscape makes (or at least used to make) money.
--
The shareholder is always right.
"My opinions are my own, and I've got *lots* of them!"
FYI Netscape has been doing that for (at least) the last 5-6 versions.... thats why the first thing I do is delete the bookmarks and replace them with my own... well that and I REALLY like the del key :-)
Why is this moderated "+5 Funny"? I think it should really be "+5 Sobering Reality"....
I hate MS as much as the next ./er, but this story is irresponible posting.
Later...
KangarooBox - We make IT simple!
opera
AZspot
How about the links in Netscape?
This is old news
Eric
"Seven Deadly Sins? I thought it was a to-do list!"
Risking my karma aswell (therefor switching the automagic +1 bonus off), I fully agree with you. From a webdesigner's point of view, Netscape is an utter disaster. You name tables, but frames are even worse. It's literally impossible to get frames to align correctly in Netscape for Linux. Now you may argue the usefulness of frames, and that if you use them, they shouldn't be used for pixel-precise artwork... Well, I agree, but I hate to burst your bubble: people do use frames that way, and it always makes sites (or rather, their graphical designs) break when viewed in Netscape.
Netscape sucks, the only reason I use it is because I use Linux and it's the least bad graphical browser for it. IE rules, and the two reasons I don't use it is 1) I don't have Windows and 2) I have personal ethical objections against Microsoft's marketing tactics.
But that doesn't keep me from admitting that MS IE is indeed the best browser out there at the moment.
)O(
Never underestimate the power of stupidity
Never underestimate the power of stupidity
To err is human, to moo bovine
There's two reasons, each similar to the other: Downloader/Visitor Tracking. FilePlanet runs a tally of how many people are downloading what files, as well as isolating which section of the world is downloading what (for bandwidth distribution and avoiding long distance downloads); both of these reasons are honorable. However, we all know what Microsoft is interested in with these "isapi" links: pure demographics for the purpose of enhancing revenue. By tracking which browser version connects, along with which version of Windows (if it is windows, hehe) and the IP (to home in on a region), Microsoft can distribute more or less copies of its software to specific regions. Personally, I started to question Slashdots exclusive use of perl scripts, but then, how else could the /. pages update so quickly? Too bad CmdrTaco never deletes stories altogether. Though this seems Orwellian, that Compaq GPL flub is one blaring example.
"Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world." --U.S. Circuit Judge Harry Edwards, speaking to the FCC's lawyer
That facility does not work without some human being, who replaced the old resource in the first place, mentioning that it actually "Moved Permanently" and where. Otherwise a decent implementation of HTTP will respond with 404 Not Found. So one would wish that web admins on every site that one visits do a good job and put 301 redirection in place, but most of the time that is a wish only...
so here is what i think is much worse than the default bookmark-thing: all search via the address bar goes to the M$ search engine
this happens whenever you type some unfinished url. now maybe that's just me... but i do it all the time. this behavior can be turned off, but the option is buried deeply into the preferences and ordinary people won't change it.
of course, joe public will also use the standard msn search for all searches and have msn.com every time they open the browser.
those things are much bigger issues than the URL redirect. i am not sure how to express my distaste for this kind of behavior - but it really pisses me off.
not that netscape is any better. netscape IS OWNED BY AOL NOW. hello-o?!
BTW i just read in business week that 72% of americans are annoyed about the extent of corporate power. i hope the backlash is coming.
Actually? If I was Microsoft, I might try to get some revenue. Think about it: something like 73% of the web uses IE according to some statistics I've seen. All those people, when they install, get those default bookmarks that are sitting right there in front of them. My thought is that new users to the net would use those links to see what is out there, get used to those sites, and use them regularly. This makes those default bookmarks, IMHO, even cooler than banner ads(at least in the eyes of a marketing person).
--John
Um, no. When I select a link from my Netscape bookmarks, I go right to the site. No queries or redirects from Microsoft or even Netscape, for that matter.
Granted, banner ads are a different matter, but we wouldn't want to get too far off topic, would we ;)
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
"Why back in my day, we had web pages with gray backgrounds and no graphics, with 10,000 word essays about esoteric computer science topics - and we LIKED IT!
In fact, we didn't even use bookmarks. We memorized IP addresses - no sissy domain names for us - and typed them in manually. Why, back in my day we didn't even have web pages, we had web paragraphs, because our computers didn't have enough memory. And we LIKED IT!"
...
I'm all for responsible use of HTML and sticking close to standards. But there is value in an aesthetically pleasing site as well. And the sad fact is, recent versions of IE (for the Mac at least) are more standards compliant than anything Netscape is shipping to date.
And while I can already hear the chants of 'Mozilla! Mozilla! Mozilla!', let me remind you that Mozilla defies some equally important standards - intra-platform user interface consistancy.
Barring that, it's still not released. And it's very, very late.
- Jeff A. Campbell
- VelociNews (http://www.velocinews.com)
- Jeff
Hate to tell ya this, but it's not a proxy, it's a redirect. Your browser still requests the same URL, but you're telling microsoft about it as well.
So if you can't go there without this, you can't go there with it.
Really nice browser, but the competitors are free(beer).
Gecko
Too low on features. Do you know how many sites require Javascript today? I know Javascript sucks and that you should never build a site that depends on it, but nevertheless, without it you are effectively shut out from a large percentage of sites.
icab
Mac only. Plus the same problems as Gecko.
Show me a browser that is stable, supports the most frequent add-ons to html (like Javascript), is free(beer and preferably speech) AND FINISHED and I'll jump for joy.
All opinions are my own - until criticized
As long as Web sites don't start doing something stupid like requiring IE... oh... wait.
It's a sad day but unfortunately, if you want a site that utilizes anything more than basic HTML these days without crashing, IE is what you have to code for. Opera is ok but lacks key layout aspects that IE can handle and Netscape has mutated simply into a blob of useless crap.
Last I checked, 90%+ people on my sites used IE, so why shouldn't I write specifically for it?
Oh yeah, and I never use the default bookmarks.
it's one thing for ads - that's known by the user as a revenue source, and you have to expect that clicking on it redirects you. A *bookmark* in a browser is *not* expected to take you anywhere but the deestintion stated - who would think, "these bookmarks came with the browser, so obviously they'll take me through Microsoft's site for tracking purposes before I get where I'm going" (not to mention that it ends up being twice as slow as before...). Apparently we all *should* expect this type of thing from Microsoft, but it really is a shame that it has to happen.
Add microsft.com to the list of banned sites in IE... find out how often you really are there...
--
"It's tough to be bilingual when you get hit in the head."
My point is (and why I wondered what the slashdot community would make of it) is that IE is now on about 96% of the world's computers and it is not easy to change or delete that bookmark list (its actually one feature that none of them have ever got right). I've had a lot of trouble trying to import my old bookmarks and I think its a lot better simply to have www.cnn.com in a bookmark than a search string that already contains the url.
I don't mind a web site doing it, but its a bit different if your computer is logging on to microsoft everytime you use a default bookmark. Especially considering that most people are not computer experts and never will be.
It is another reason why the microsoft internet divsion should be split away from the rest of the company. This sort of integration distrubs me, not for what it does now, but what it could do in the future. Its a security risk.
This is good because it shows that IE is forgiving enough to display even really munged up HTML.
This is bad because HTML designers dont have to follow the rules anymore. "It works on my system." sigh
Later...
KangarooBox - We make IT simple!
I've noticed netscape has done this since version 4 at least. The easy (and very likely in my mind) explaination is that both MS and Netscape want to handle the situation where the 3rd party site changes the URL of the site the bookmark points to. When this happens MS and Netscape simply change the redirect to point to the new location and viola! everyones default bookmarks still work. Otherwise the bookmark would now cause a 404 Error, which looks like shit( causing grumbles of "stupid microsoft, default bookmarks don't even work!") and is a pain in the ass for the site to handle. I mean who wants to have to release a new version of their software just because a 3rd party site changed their friggin URL.
This comment was generated by a Squadron of Ultra Ninjas
I couldn't run netstat, IE had taken all the memory ;o)
Dunno if its got any better but Solaris IE was the only program I used which took more memory than Rose, and that takes some doing...
This site doesn't render in Netscape on any platform (haven't tried Mozilla) but works fine in IE.
Of course watch MS closely, monitor them. Take them to task - ONLY IF YOU FIND A LEGIT BEEF! Picking on them for something Netscape does too - and is perfectly reasonable - is just petty and borders on irresponsible. It simply demonstrates desperation, IMHO.
.NET and Blackcomb are in the oven already. W2K and ME came out before 2.4 and I'm thinking we'll see the beta of Whistler before 2.4 is final.
As for MS just copying everything and no money on research? HA! They spend BILLIONS a year on R&D.
And they are cranking out products while others are scrambling to profit from IPOs. W2K is still warm from the oven and Whistler and
I flat out challenge you to document that quote you attribute to Gates.
MS is a huge company with 100s of competitors, many equally aggressive and some even more so. They are the biggest with the most money and so jealousy, envy, frustration and lots of other factors also apply in some people's judgement of those that are are bigger then them. MS doesn't win all the time, it doesn't have fleets of black helicopters or corps of MiB.
Please don't tell me you are naive enough to actually think/suggest that other companies don't engage in copying or stealing other's works and/or looks and feels. Hell, 90% of the window managers I see for Linux try to look like the Windows interface that their users claim to hate so much. It's a rare Linux box that doesn't have a Windows emulator on it (for running IE at the least).
ALL I've tried to say is, report the news accurately and without obvious blatant bias and/or outright FUD. That's all.
So... MS writes a browser... which runs all the time on current versions of windows... and to track users, they use an http/html trick?? You know, i think they'd be able to figure it out over there...
sub user_track {
# Nevermind, found out today we'll use cookies instead
1;
}
Now, the real conspiracy... why can the mac version of IE 5.5 correctly render transparent pngs, but 5.5 o nthe PC can't...
---
I'm not ashamed. It's the computer age, nerds are in.
They're still in, aren't they?
---
I'm not ashamed. It's the computer age, nerds are in.
They're still in, aren't they?
Why? Because I don't hate MS and love anything *nix based? If that makes me biased then I would be - but I don't agree.
I don't hate MS, nor do I hate Unix (well, ok, I do hate parts of it). I just thought news reporting sites should be reporting accurate news and not regurgetating someone elses FUD when it feeds the owners own personal vendetta against MS.
I don't want a lot, I just want it all!
Flame away, I have a hose!
Only 'flamers' flame!
I don't think his defense of ie is overstated at all. I hate microsoft, and don't have any of their software on my computer, but I even think ie is far better than netscape. It's noticably faster in loading pages. It's really good with remembering what you've typed into forms so it offers the right things at the right time so you don't have to type them again. And at any job I've had doing web programming, most of the problems/bugs we had were ns only. I don't remember ever having to fix a bug and being told "this only happens in ie..."
Care about freedom?
I'd rather be lucky than good.
Um, no.
Umm, yes. Go to any default Netscape bookmark. It's a redirect from Netscape. MSIE default links are the same. Neither does it for user created links. Netscape even did it first!
Geez, I know /. is anti-MS, but this story is one of the most absurd, knee-jerk FUD attempts I've ever seen.
Eric
"Seven Deadly Sins? I thought it was a to-do list!"
ANYONE who writes "OS = Self-Image" IS a retard! And if you did live by that rule, have you seen what your typical Linux programmer looks/lives/smells like? You're not just mean, you're stupid ...
Has anyone else noticed that if you type in a non-existent domain into the Address box of IE that it contacts Mircosoft with the URL once it establishes that the address doesn't exist?
I wonder if Microsoft are building a database of commonly misspelt and non-existent domains with a view to snapping up the most common ones?
Yeah, gotta agree with that. NS makes no attempt to hide the fact that they think you are a cow. At least in IE you can disable all these "features", in NS you're stuck with THAT GODDAMNED FUCKING *SHOP* BUTTON!!! Excuse me, I just really don't like that button. Even worse than having it at all is that they put Shop right next to Stop. This really bothers me since I generally use text only buttons in NS. I'd rather use the icons, but they're stuck at size FUCKING HUGE! Well that's enough of my ranting for today.
Pretty please, pretty please, can I have a good browser for Linux???
________________
They're - They are
Their - Belonging to them
I don't want free as in beer. I just want free beer.
IE checks for a link in the web page header, , for an icon named favicon.ico in first the domain root, then the page directory. Make sure the icon is 256 colors, 32x32.
funny munging
Uh buddy.. When I click my slashdot bookmark, I go straight to it. BTW, he wasn't talking about your personal bookmarks, he was talking about the ones that come with a fresh install of IE 5.5. Hmph.
-TimmyC, Tech Guru
Yup, the article title is "IE 5.5 Tracking Default Bookmarks". Notice the use of the word "Default" between "Tracking" and "Bookmarks".
In the summary - "...the default bookmarks in..." again, we see the word "default" being used directly before "bookmarks". Strange coincidence, or ignorant, overmoderated, trolling parent post? You be the judge.
(at least read the *title* of the article before ou post - you don't need to do this sort of crap to bash Slashdot - There's plenty of legitimate claims...)
--
"It's tough to be bilingual when you get hit in the head."
That's easily explainable: Corel sucks.
Chris Hagar
"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." - Thomas Jefferson
By default, Internet Explorer (since at least version 5 for PC) accesses auto.search.msn.com when you enter a domain name that doesn't exist into the Address bar, without a resource type (http://, etc), which I imagine most people do.
f dsafasdfas.com&srch=3&prov=&utf8
When you type in "www.fdsafasdfas.com", IE attempts to resolve it and, if unsuccessful, accesses this url (or something similar):
http://auto.search.msn.com/response.asp?MT=www.
...then almost always displays the "page cannot be displayed" error.
This is a part of their "keyword web page search from the address bar" feature, but <PARANOIA>I'm sure they've got a good collection of the most mistyped domain names, which I imagine would be valuable to someone.</PARANOIA>
Zildy
Karma: Excer..ex...excellahhh...realll good (mostly affected by drinking not done in moderation)
They are now spending billions of dollars on research because they have so much disposable cash. They didn't use to. None of their major current product lines are based in any interesting way on the results of their research, and whether they ever will remains an open question.
Gates's attitudes towards research spending were widely reported in the press in the early 90's; you can dig it up yourself. If you were in research at the time, that was a big deal.
I didn't say Microsoft was any worse than other big companies. I took issue with your claims that Microsoft got to their current position through innovation. Nonsense. Microsoft is a succesful business because of hardball business tactics, quite a bit of luck, some questionable practices, and excellent marketing.
Technologically, what they are selling is largely still behind what was state-of-the-art in research labs in the 1980's (but, then, so are Linux and MacOS; the industry as a whole has stagnated).
No, that's not "ALL" you tried to say. The story was clearly inaccurate, as I pointed out myself. But you also went off on a lengthy exposition about Microsoft's supposed innovations and software skills. That's where you are just as wrong as the original story was.
Face it, Microsoft is a big company, no better and no worse than other big companies. Claiming that Microsoft makes high-quality, innovative software is like claiming that MacDonald's makes high-quality, innovative cuisine. In reality, both make cheap products for the masses; the good stuff clearly happens elsewhere.
also by turning it off, you stop the windows from popping up if you know what i mean ;)
Hey Taco, did you try this out after disabling the "Automatically check for Internet Explorer updates" option in your preferences (advanced tab)?
I'm not exactly sure, but maybe they're just harmlessly checking your version, in the hopes that you're behind on updates, so they can shove a new bug release (not bugfix) down your throat.
I always turn this option off, and I'm pretty sure my browser doesn't hop to MS before hitting Altavista.
"If Stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?" -- Will Rogers
http://www.piedmontusabda.cjb.net/
Works fine for me. Netscape 4.75, Linux Mandrake. Yay, ballroom dancing.
I don't care, who are the /.ers that use IE5.5 anyway? Don't they know this is Linux country ;-)
/. It was mostly IE. And if you've spent any time moderating, you know that anti-M$ comments are not modded well. Certainly this site has a pro-linux slant compared to most, but that comes from its editors and not from its readership. The readership is mostly using IE5.5.
Back in the day, Hemos and Taco tracked web browsers visiting
A regular bookmarked site is fine. All they're talking about is that the links ie provides go through ms. Yes, those would stop working if you blocked traffic to there.
Care about freedom?
I'd rather be lucky than good.
Or why not just make that our start page?
/. entries come up.
I'd love to see the faces on the guys at Microsoft when they start seeing thousands and thousands of
--
Web addresses in mail at hotmail are helpfully translated into hyperlinks. The link is redirected via a hotmail server, I presume so they can track what sites users visit and sell the information. My guess is it would be pretty useless in all but aggregated format, however, as many hotmail addresses are spam filters for people's real accounts or identities.
Or maybe its just my paranoia kicking in
- "History shows again and again how nature points out the folly of men" -- Blue Oyster Cult, 'Godzilla'
More Microsoft bashing.. It's pretty stupid. I thought people were supposed to be open minded here.. Sigh, but they insist on finding every little detail they can use to exploit MS. I agree Windows isn't superb or anything, especially for a fairly evolved browser. But I don't think Win2K is all that bad, and you guys should admit it. I sure hope I don't see "Gates sweats on treadmill" one day on /. :P
/. now) have got to stop. Anywhere you raise the issue of say 3DFx and nvidia, or Linux vs MS, people get really angry and become illogical. :) Calm down people, and look at facts, not your opinion. ;-)
I'm not saying Linux is bad and I'm not taking sides, BUT these get your back-against-the-wall flames (I'm not directing to
As a hippie would say: Free your mind man..
-TimmyC, Tech Guru
I don't want a lot, I just want it all!
Flame away, I have a hose!
Only 'flamers' flame!
It's true that if there's something bad to be said about Microsoft, you'll probably read it here first. However, I think some of your defense is a little over-stated.
I can't comment on the "feature packed"-ness of ie, since I don't use it. Netscape sure hasn't caught up in the number of security issues, though - Internet Explorer had about one per week for a while there, didn't it? Maybe a few less features and a little more thought would have been in order.
I don't approve of "dirty tricks" on the part of any company, but there is a legal distinction in the U.S. when it comes to such actions on the part of a market monopoly. Like it or not, Microsoft is held to a higher standard (rightfully, IMHO) in its business dealings since it significantly greater power as a monopoly than if it were just one of a number of competitors in a market.
In the hypersensitive world of free software and Linux, it would have been impossible for Red Hat to get to where it is without being "nice". Even as they are now, distributing their primary products for free and contributing thousands of dollars of hacker salary back into community Linux development, there are constant fears that Red Hat will become the next Microsoft. There is very little trust of big, unresponsive corporations in the Linux market, such that I can't believe that Red Hat has been getting away with MS-like tactics on the sly. Do you have specifics?
-- ethereal, who isn't normally a big RH defender, and definitely has no IPO buzz goin' on (the very thought makes me chuckle :)
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
Konqueror is a GPL browser. It renders a
lot faster than both Netscape and IE.
It supports Netscape plugins (e.g. for Flash)
and has a cool ftp client.
It allows you to set your own cookie policy:
you can make it ask whether you accept a cookie,
and then you can reject them by site. So no
more cookies from doubleclick - and I'll never
be asked about them either.
So definately: there is a serious competitor out
there. I admit it's still beta, but this is
something which can overtake IE. Go get it and
submit bug reports!
Don't forget to renice it to a lower priority if you want your net connection to still be able to handle Quake :-)
---
mikre he sophia he tou Mikrosophou.
How about let's all stop using IE and Windows and instead use Linux and Konqueror or Mozilla?
You don't get around much do you?
Please point me to one. I'm sure they exist, but they're obviously not any sites that I ever use.
Sorry, I've given up - I don't use netscape anymore and i don't keep a list of old grievances..
In fact any web agency worth their salt will at least make sure a site downgrades elegantly into NS.
That's just so much arrogant crap! It doesn't work that way! I've written a few mails in my time about webdesign, and the reply is always something long these lines (in intent if not in words): "sorry but almost nobody uses netscape anymore, it is outdated crap. We are offering you a service here. If you don't like it feel free to go somewhere else"
--
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
And God forbid a company should make some money off anything I do unless I know about it before hand?
Come on now. This is exactly like a banner ad, only probably a lot more effective. What, do you think they should include a disclaimer that says "WARNING! We are making money off this product! If you don't want any companies making money, do not click this link."
Companies exist to make money. This has the added bonus of helping our economy along. So should we expect "this type of thing" from Microsoft? Making money? I should hope so.
Look at this utter shite - he doesn't even begin the html, much less close anything else...:
<BASE HREF="http://mimic.arcadeheaven.com/">
<head>
<title>Mimic - The Generic Hardware Emulator</title>
<!All code in this file is (c)2000 Beaver Technologies, All rights reserved>
<!Click Rotater (RotateIt) is owned by Michael Beaver>
<FRAMESET rows=84%,16%><FRAMESET cols=12%,*><FRAME name=left src=menu.htm><FRAME name=right src=news.htm></FRAMESET><FRAME name=bot src=main_b3.htm>
[|]
Netscape also does this with their bookmarks.
All of the default bookmarks go to a redirect page at netscape.com
A possible explaination is that if the link ever changes then all they need to do is change a single file on their server and not need to update the millions of web browsers out there.
- Tiersten
Pretty please, pretty please, can I have a good browser for Linux???
... so TURN THE (Shop, Radio) BUTTONS OFF!
From the Version Notes at http://home.net scape.com/eng/mozilla/4.7/relnotes/windows-4.75.h
No comment on the buttons, they look fine to me at 1152x864 resolution.
Andy
---
The Crystal Wind is the Storm, and the Storm is Data, and the Data is Life
Microsoft's success stories have mostly been achieved by copying products and ideas from other companies like Apple, Lotus, Sun, Bell Labs, IBM, and others. What they have been been "working hard" on is cloning other people's software. Gates even used to brag about the fact that he didn't have to spend any money on research--he'd just copy Apple (now that hardly anybody else is left, they have to do their own R&D). And Microsoft's pyramid-scheme-like stock option plans and accounting practices put many money-burning startups to shame--Microsoft is not the enormously successful and profitable company you seem to think they are.
No, Microsoft is not the "Borg cube", but they are generally not an innovative company either, and they have engaged, and continue to engage, in a lot of questionable business practices.
And, coming back to the core of this story, Microsoft clearly puts a low priority on security, quality, professionalism, safety, and privacy. The fact that Netscape isn't much better is irrelevant. Microsoft is not a startup anymore, and neither are they a fly-by-night company in the Arizona desert anymore. They are the market leader, one of the biggest US corporations, and in that position, they ought to behave responsibly in all these areas. If they don't, it's completely justifiable to take them to task. You see, with billions in revenue comes a lot of responsibility and exposure.
Open up your favorites. Right click on one of them. Select Properties. Look at the URL. It takes you straight to that address.
Open one of the pre-made bookmarks. Right click on one of them. Select Properties. Look at the URL. What do you know - http://www.microsoft.com/redir?...
Come on, Slashdot. You don't need to do this sort of crap to bash Microsoft. There's plenty of legitimate claims before you have to invent them.
Fear: When you see B8 00 4C CD 21 and know what it means
Netscape is doing the same, and it's not exactly new either: this feature is there since version 4.0 (1998?). The default bookmarks in the Personal Toolbar Folder redirect through Netscape's site.
m arkname).html
The redirection URL is http://home.netscape.com/bookmark/(version)/(book
Take a look at http://home.netscape.com/bookmark/ to see all supported versions.
----
Stop worrying about the risks of nuclear power and start worrying about the risks of not using nuclear power.
It wasn't. He started at -1 and was modded up.
http://home.netscape.com/de/bookmark/4_7/heise.htm l
So they do exactly the same thing. Just don't use the default bookmarks.
But would you like MS pushing links onto your IE weekly as a feature? Probably not. You'd be complaining about it on slashdot.
I was reading in a magazine about the most popular visited websites counted by the number of hits it receives. Microsoft came up as one of the top sites along with MSN.com. A bit unfair if they get a hit with each IE launch... besides that IE comes with the pre-selected homepage of MSN... so all the people who don't know what they are doing leave it that way generating millions of unwarrented hits.
There is no
Sure, you could use an open source application suite, but the so could every other company out there. And then, if they did that, well hell, we could all then do something actively to fix this "we use office, ie5 can recognize office 2000, and so we use office 2000 and ie5" problem.
Seriously, somebody send me sone information on an application suite that can be used with a browser the same as IE5 and Office 2000 please!
Let 'em track. Who uses those dumbass bookmarks anyway. Delete 'em, and make your own. They probably just want stats so they can figure out what to bookmarks to add in IE 6.0, and what ones to trash.
Sounds to me like it's you who is biased.
So now, the censor proxies will have to block Microsoft as they block Babelfish.
:)
__
__
Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
GW Bu
Hell, WE had to type the hexadecimal octets into the source and destination fields to build our own network packets, and we LIKED IT!
Folks, I'm doing some server side work and have encountered a heinous behavior on the part of IE. Basically, when IE requests an office document from the server, some special magic happens in IE related to firing up the inline content handler associated with office content-types. When the http response containing the document comes directly from the server that the original http server was directed at, all works fine. But when the original server redirects IE to another server that will dish up the actual document binary, IE sends TWO nearly identical requests to that second server. Just from watching the browser, it appears that the first request is to detect the content-type and load the content handler, and the second request is to actually feed the content handler (word/excel/etc application). Note that this only happens with MS Office content-types, and only happens if a redirect is involved. If the content-type is a non-MS binary (e.g. gif,jpg) or if there is no redirect involved, IE will issue only 1 request. Does anyone know what is going on here? Can anyone point me at some resources (website?) that explains what IE is doing and maybe how I can defeat it? The double request confounding some of our schemes and is also very wasteful of bandwidth. Thanks for any pointers.
http://home.netscape.com/bookmark/4_72/ditech.ht ml
and this
http://home.netscape.com/bookmark/4_72/ecost.htm l
why because this allows the company to determine what is relevant for the next release. If they make a deal with a company like CNN and say "we'll put your bookmark out there for X amount of ad revenue" then they damn well need to justify that people are using the link. If noone is using the link then it's time to find another company to put in that one's place. Also it makes it easier to keep bookmarks relevant over the lifetime of the browser. Not everyone updates there browser everytime a patch comes out and no one I know of wants to download an updated list of bookmarks every time they hit the web (not over a 28800 connection), they've got better things to do. So what makes sense then, redirection, the company can track if the bookmarks are being used and keep 404's out of it, seemingly increasing the reliability and functionality of their browser to the public.
Get off the bandwagon. Stop bashing for bashing's sake. Do some damn research before you post as stupid ass story like this.
"Do not be swept up in the momentum of mediocrity." - anon
Hmmm... pulling out my trusty old HTTP proxy spy, let's see exactly what information IE is sending to MS server:
o ws&sbp=MediaPlayer&ar=Favorite&sba=CNET& pver=6.2 HTTP/1.0
/ 1.0 302 Moved Temporarily
GET http://www.microsoft.com/isapi/redir.dll?prd=Wind
Accept: image/gif, image/x-xbitmap, image/jpeg, image/pjpeg, application/vnd.ms-
powerpoint, application/vnd.ms-excel, application/msword, */*
Accept-Language: en-us
User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; Windows NT 4.0; y)
Host: www.microsoft.com
Proxy-Connection: Keep-Alive
And it gets back:
HTTP/1.0 302 Moved Temporarily
Location: http://stream.cnet.com
Server: Microsoft-IIS/5.0
Content-Type: text/html
Content-Length: 145
Age: 0
X-Cache: MISS from x.x.x.com
Proxy-Connection: keep-alive
<head><title>Document Moved</title></head>
<body><h1>Object Moved</h1>This document may be found <a HREF="http://stream.cnet.com">here</a></body>HTTP
In other words, it's not sending any extra information, and it's very plausible that MS would use it to 1) redirect to a current, correct URL for the given services, and 2) verify usage of the latest version of the browser. In other words, nothing sinister, even if they're keeping statistics on which links are used -- if they don't have statistics, then they won't know which URLs to keep and which to trash.
Sigh.
---
---
"Go Metallica. Die RIAA." -- Linus Torvalds
Is this a joke?
True.
I deleted all the default bookmarks long ago because i don't go to any of the sites. Now is it the browser that redirects you through another site or is it the website itself. We've heard about Microsoft redirecting hotmail logins through a passport site first. So as far as those default bookmarks go, is it the browser that has to be looked at or the websites themselves?
Evertime I (re)install Windows, I delete those bookmarks. When I noticed that 'links' folder kept reappearing, I created a dummy file called 'links' in the favorites folder. 8) Why would I have a folder called links when everthang I put in there is a link?
soupman
int 20h
int 20h
With all the adverse publicity Microsoft is facing over its monopolistic practices, what
can they possibly gain from doing this.
##humour mode on##
Oops Bill might be upset to find my homepage is new-warez.com
##humour mode off##
switch to newsforge.com - it's just like slashdot, also brought to you by VA, but filters the crap.
My thoughts on this issue were similar to yours:
1) The default URLS are basically product placement for which MS (or NS) is paid
2) They and the clients both want to know how much traffic these (paid for) links generate
My own reaction was more along the lines of:
1) I don't use IE (thank you 98lite)
2) The first thing I do when I install any browser is delete all the default bookmarks.
Of course, if I found out that MS had my IP address and a list of all the sites I visited on file somewhere then I would be upset. Of course, it would be pure paranoia to think that they would do that . . .
~ I haven't lost my mind. It's backed up on tape somewhere.
I WISH you could tell the moderators names so we can figure out what complete pathetic moron considered this flamebait or a troll. Is this the only way /. zealots can maintain a grip on reality - but trying to bury all commentary? I have to laugh out loud whenever I hear /. users whine about their 1st amendment rights and then instantly moderate down ANYTHING that doesn't preach the party line, comrade.
how can "default bookmarks" contain "personal information"?
...
...) that do this kind of thing. Advertisers want bang-for-buck so get over it and let people know what you visit on THEIR website!
/. readers will read this in a rush and think M$ knows their every frickin' move :-(
this new is so whacked
there are numerous websites (Netscape, AltaVista, ZDNet,
god, I wonder how many
Well, not exactly what you're looking for, but vision.yahoo.com only works with windows 95, 98 NT or 2000 (with NS or IE). Try it, click on "Click to Watch FinanceVision" on the site using anything else but an MS OS and you'll get a popup message telling you so!
I'm afraid the internet is getting more and more MS-centric.
I think an MS proprietary web is an inevitability. Read on before you hit reply to flame me.
Even at this stage the web has yet to see even a small percentage of the total amount of traffic it will eventually see. Many of you think that having a computer spending time on the internet is part of every standard day. The fact of the matter is a huge slab of the populace have yet to be E-ified. The standard PC is really a development box and is too complex and/or expensive for alot of people. The sort of devices that will be used by the vast majority to surf the web of tomorrow will be locked down and priced like a Sony Playstation, or an Nintendo... and will have internet access... Hmmmm kinda sounds like Microsoft's X-Box hey ?
When it comes down to it the only company that really has a clue how to market computer services to the masses is MS. Though the whole web-tv market has yet to open up my bet is X-Box and the MS marketing machine are going to kill the whole games console market and open the web up to a flood of new MS users. The 4.5% who don't use an MS browser are going to find that decimal place flying to the left of them very quickly.
In summary whoever controls the client side market, controls the demands placed that will be placed on the server side, and I think Microsoft understands this very well... Look out Java... Look out linux..
MS does a lot of research into HCI (Human computer Interaction). By redirecting their default bookmarks to MS first, they can track how well their default bookmarks are used. They may also see any trends in bookmark usage. For example:
- If a user visit one sports site, they visit many sports sites, but no business sites
-
Or someone visiting a science site tends to also visit cooking sites.
This information can then be used to create predictions about how a majority use bookmarks and possible creeate a system to help the needs of that majority.Unfortunately:
If there was a good use for that infernal goatse.cx link, this might be it.
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
Aaarggh. Your website does the nasty "disable-back-button-because-of-redirect" thing. Please find a way to get rid of it. It's very annoying. There was an earlier slashdot article about that about a month ago which had some clues about how to achieve what you are trying to do without annoying people.
Regards,
Donut
Mmmm.. Donuts
Lets not get all upset about every peice of information gathering companies do. Chances are they aren't even logging IPs or anything, but want to know which bookmarks most people use and which ones they don't. This way they can tune the bookmarks to make them more useful for the average web browser.
This would make sense to me, anyways...
There is one browser though, which isn't controlled by large corporations, is very fast and cool - try out the version of Konqueror in the later KDE2 previews, I'm sure you'll love it as much as I do.
-
sig sig sputnik
-
sig sig sputnik
Some of us, my dear moron, DON'T PROGRAM!!!! (the exclamation points are to get this thru your filters, ie. that thick skull.) Why is it that half the people on this site think everyone is either stupid or lazy if they can't immediately whip out a piece of code?
Don't try to KNOW everything, just know how to FIND it.
I forgive you though =) (sarcasm)
Have a nice day. (sarcasm)
Moderate this post as you may. I don't care this time
--I assume full responsibility for my actions, except the ones that are someone else's fault.
I normally don't use the default book marks, but just for fun, I decided to look to see if mine did too. I have a folder called "Impored Bookmarks" that contains a whole bunch of netscape bookmarks (presumably from when I did run Netscape on my machine). Anyway, ALL of those links go to netscape.com. Things like Amazon: http://home.netscape.com/bookmar k/4_06/amazon.html and AltaVista: http://home.netscape.com/book mark/4_06/altavista.html
This clearly isn't an IE thing. Microsoft may have even innovated this idea away from Netscape!
Interestingly enough, these web addresses don't even take you to the real site (like I presume the IE ones do). Instead, then keep you at netscape.com with their banner ads.
"Save the whales, feed the hungry, free the mallocs" -- author unknown
So Microsoft is taking access information for the default bookmarks it puts in its own browser. What's the big deal? You can always change the bookmarks to go to the site directly (right-click any bookmark and choose Properties).
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
Aha. Thanks. I usually do a post-install and uncheck all that kind of things and completely forget about it....
That the default bookmark files for BOTH Netscape and Mozilla (Netscape RPM from Red Hat 6.2 and Mozilla RPM from nautilus.eazel.com) do the same thing: look at the URLs, for example, under Computers and Internet. They send you to Netscape's site first and then redirect you to the site of the Bookmark's title.
They probably do this as a precaution aganist the URL of the site the bookmark points to changing. It's a lot easier to change on redirect on thier site than it is to edit all the bookmark files for all the IE distributions, assembling the archive again, uploading it to the server, etc.
I think we can all see the sense in doing this. It also allows them to monitor how popular the bookmarks they include are. If no-one is visiting one they can replace it with something else, or re-word it, etc, in the next version of IE (which will also update EVERYTHING ELSE requiring you to download about 12 trillion gigs---I just HAD to get a dig in at MS after rationalizing thier behaviour like that!) :)
--8<--
--8<--
Renders fine in Mozilla M17 for Windows.
--
Peter
Yes. A lot.
Do you know how many web sites out there suck? Even more.
Conveniently, the web sites that require Javascript are a subset of the web sites that suck. So I just turn off Javascript while browsing the web. If I hit a site I can't use, I stop and think to myself whether it's worth turning on Javascript to use the site. So far I haven't found any sites worth turning on the Javascript for.
Javascript is historically so riddled with security and privacy holes that browsing the web with it is akin to running arbitrary code from the internet (or running with scissors). It's not worth the risk to me, and it shouldn't be to you.
What all web browsers badly need is a way to allow the user to specify a certain list of trusted sites that are allowed to use Javascript / cookies / animations / whatever. I'm crossing my fingers that Mozilla will one day deliver this kind of fine-grained control into the user's hands.
...until you realize there's no navigation stuff at the left...
--
Peter
Yes yes, praise for the great satan of software, but the simple fact is links move. The reason that MS and Netscape both do this is to make sure that they are going to the right site for whatver reason. Sometimes domains change, some sites simply dont start at www.company.com/index.html.
Aside from this you can also yuse this kind of a redirection feature to do special deals for users of your products by dinging you to a special introductory page on a site first.
errr..
{JUNKBUSTER ON} what ads?? { JUNKBUSTER OFF }
CAUTION: Offtopic rant below
Oh those flashy annoying things.....I vow to click on any add that dare do something as "daring" as a simple descriptive hyperlink...(Because it is easy on the eyes, and does not suck up the bandwidth.) I will not click on any add that dares think I will be swayed by a flashy, ever changing GIF file that says --- "Oh if I can not catch your attention with this frame..let's try another 1 or 10 or 20..
Sorry..Ventured offtopic a bit.
(+1 Funny) only if I laugh out loud.
So what..who cares if MS knows that you used the default bookmark that came with their browser. On the same note, who cares if some random company knows what sites you are visiting. Like they're gonna tell yer mom that you looked at some pr0n or something. Jesus people, you make me sick.
- drink, fight, and fuck..thats all that really matters
I believe what you want to do is:
user_pref("custtoolbar.has_toolbar_folder", false);
If you look at the big-ass file on netscape.com that describes preferences.js, you'll see this is a "reserved" setting, with a note to the effect of "we're not gonna tell you what it does, 'cuz we don't want you fuckin' with it".
If that doesn't work, also try adding:
user_pref("custtoolbar.personal_toolbar.Version" , 0);
user_pref("custtoolbar.personal_toolbar_folder", "Netscape_engineers_are_weenies");
Fuck them and the marketers they rode in on. And that goes for Nutscrape and Internet Exploiter.
Enter the word "apple" into msie, what do you get?
www.apple.com
Enter "dictionary", what do you get?
www.dictionary.com? Think again bub.
dictionary.msn.com
I'm sure that M$ has the right to do this but I'd be pissed if
my site was on the redirection list.
--
This should not be suprising to anybody who hasn't been under a rock for the last few years, remember how much power Microsoft seemed to wield during the DOJ anti-trust trials just by being able to keep somebodies icon on or off of the desk top.
I don't suppose you ever considered that it could be because the URLs may change? By pointing to a redirect at Microsoft all they have to do is update their end should CNN.com become CNN.com.us for example. If they had a direct link, and the URL changed, then the Slashdot.org article would read 'MS are crap because the default links don't work'.
And don't knock MS so hard for this, Netscape does exactly the same.. On both Windows and Linux. (And probably any other platform its available for.)
http://twitter.com/onion2k
But if there isn't already a category called 'linux' in the standard IE5.5 bookmarks, Microsoft will just ignore any hits in that category, knowing that they must have come from Slashdot readers.
If you want to mess up the 'tracking' you need to hit URLs that actually are in the bookmarks.
-- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
I mean with a banner, the site you are clicking from is going to want to know how many people clicked so they can get paid... Or are you implying that Microsoft are getting paid click-through from the default favourites? I would have thought it would be the other way round, companies paying Microsoft to have their site in the default favourites.
actually, you just agreed with the statement you were trying to counter. "The other way [a]round" would be microsoft paying companies to include their links in their browser. they are doing "click-through" payments logic here. the more people that use the default bookmarks, the more they can charge for the inclusion of them.
And how often does that happen? Once in a blue moon! Come on, since when would CNN change its url? They are not that stupid and besides, that's why you redirect people at the web site, not at your browser. Its a pointless feature to add unless there is something else behind it.
Flamebait that this is, the poster has a point, apart from the "write it yourself" - the idea of OSS is that code can be freely shared, and reused.
I've been using Mozilla since M15 - and it's coming along great. Admittedly, it is one memory hungry bastard (but hey I've got 512MB to play with
Whatever you have to say about how long it has taken to write Mozilla, it is still an awesome project. OK, it can't handle secure sites very well, and I still haven't got Java to work right (JavaScript is OK though...), but that will come.
What really, really pisses me off is sites like UnOlympics which assume that everybody uses Netscape or IE. I don't have Opera or Lynx handy, so I can't check if they work, but the browser wars are hurting everybody - web developers have to encase their entire sites in switch statemens, users have differing experiences of the same sites, and what industry seems to be blind to is that it is costing them money - the only stick that they will heed...
Strong data typing is for those with weak minds.
Strong data typing is for those with weak minds.
Notice how even if you disable all the auto-search nonsense in IE 5 and make a typo in your domain so the browser tries to connect to a non-existant domain, there is a brief flash of a microsofty-looking page before the error page shows up? I see it on my machine at home, but my work machine doesn't seem to do this (maybe because it's faster).
Anyhow, just weird and a little bit spooky.
"Hot lesbian witches! It's fucking genius!"
Here is one
.. much like when I go to freshmeat and click on a link, and it does exactly the same thing. I haven't heard anyone complaining about that. Oh no, wait, freshmeat isn't run by Microsoft. So it's okay then..
-
Meep meep
I hope you know that everytime you bookmark a page in IE5.x, it automatically request a custom "Favorites Icon" from the bookmarked site.
What this means is that the site's webmaster know exactly what page you bookmarked (plus the time, IP, etc).
The web is a business. Gathering personal information is a business. So the two go hand in hand. If anyone finds this to be a shocking revelation that they are tracking you on the web and gathering information, then I'm sorry for you. Everything is about gathering information for resale on the web. ISPs tend to gather where users go, servers track who visits, when, what pages, and what browser they use.
UNIX is the answer, but only if you phrase the question very carefully
Sure I got some beefs, but I expect win2k to be unreliable and to have to reboot every few days, so do many other people. This stuff stops being news.
I have a freshly installed win2k box on standard hardware that dies every time I use the floppy drive - yes that's right the whole server falls over for the use of one of the most basic attachments to a computer.
All those super bug fixes that I am notified of regularly - well each one requires that the server reboot.
Did they finally get it right with win2k.......I don't think so.
Slashdot Beta should die a painful death.
this is freakin stupid. Every company and there MOM has banner adds that do the same freakin thing! if you don't like microsoft getting a little ++ on there counter for when you go to CNN, just remove the freakin bookmark and put it in yourself. jezzus!
I HATE to remind you morons but Microsoft Is a COMPANY, company's exists to make MONEY. If MS can make a few extra million from this more power to them.
What about the banner add on top of slashdot?? you think it doesn't check a counter somewhere? for gods sake you people are being incredibly obtuse.
-Fuckin my' Karama (but this is worth it)
this is my sig.
The URLs that they are forwarding to are subject to change under the control of other companies. Microsoft certainly may be tracking usage. However, they may have also been building in the flexibility to change the URL without having to update the client software.
The net will not be what we demand, but what we make it. Build it well.
You might want to protect the & symbol with quotes or escape it...
Incidentally with wget -S (show headers) I noticed the redirection is to Location: http:/www.slashdot.org [sic] i.e. only one slash!
And the server? Microsoft-IIS/5.0 of course. :-)
Right on man. I've noticed that too. people arn't blindly going a long with the anti-MS FUD. It's good to see, and better to read it put so well.
thanks,
-Jon
this is my sig.
HKLM\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Infodelivery\Restrictions\NoUpdateCheck HKLM\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Infodelivery\Restrictions\NoJITSetup should help with being sent to M$ everytime you open IE
The natural assumption would be that this exists to make money. I wouldn't be surprised if CNN pays MS to have cnn.com listed among the default links during an install. I personally don't like it, but this is the business world (the net can mean business too), and they have a right to make money that way. I would expect Netscape and Mozilla (when it comes of age) to do the very same. It's only logical. The next step is obvious -- MS needs to make sure that their clients (cnn, yahoo, whatever) have reason to continue paying MS to have their links listed. Obviously, the clients wouldn't find it necessary to pay for such a link if only a very small percentage of the market actually uses it. This is called marketing.
Not that i'm defending MS, but it is respectful to be fair. Look at some of the stuff that can be downloaded with netscape, or added useing Smart Update. Do you really think Netscape offers those out of the kindness of their hearts? In a perfect world, yes. In the business world, there's no reason to do such a thing if money weren't involved. Besides, that's man-hours (more money going into overhead) that get eaten by Netscape just to be kind.
My point is that this is not necessarily a big, evil MS tactic again. This is a standard business tactic that has gone back many years before MS existed -- endorsement. Michael Jordan gets paid to endorse Nike. He doesn't do it for free.
h ttp://www.microsoft.com/isapi/redir.dll?prd=linux
and if we all do the same, it'll really throw the Microsoft statistics gatherers. "This month we got 34,432 redirections for the Windows page and 485,550 redirections in a category of 'linux'".
bp
That leaves convincing the browser producers to use your link as a default. Microsoft and Netscape very likely get payed to put those links there, and naturally they are going to want to track the usage of those links, so that they can see which ones are beneficial and which ones are duds. The purchasers of the default link would no doubt be interested in those statistics as well.
I have no idea if this is the case, but it seems to fit together for me.
V
I mean, come on.
/. team head over to Fark.com and recycle some of that; at least it's funny.
IE has had bookmarks that redirect through the MS version checker since 4.0.
This is not news.
I suggest that the
--
Peter
I am running Corel Linux Second Edition (2.2.16 kernel) at present and all of its Netscape Bookmarks (and it has a relatively nice selection including Slashdot) pass through product.corel.com, as does the default Homepage which is a corel page. I presume this is to gather usage info and stats and don't really have a problem with this sort of tactic. If you don't like the extra smidge of traffic generated fix your bookmarks. If you don't know about it should you care? I don't think so. You are simply providing some usage analysis data and all that is visible is the standard CGI environment (such as User Agent, IP, etc.). It lets them (Corel, MS, Netscape) see just how many users they have, what versions they are using and how useful their bookmarks are. Personal info gathering is still down to the browser (and whether it allows javascript etc), nothing has changed. It has the potential to be about as obnoxious as doubleclick and deserves the same treatment, care and fix it or don't care and let them gather some info based on your usage. Now if anyone can prove that these redirects are used to do some form of persistent tracking and that they are gathering email addresses I will take a different view. Until then ...Dear Slashdot, please stop posting stupid argumentative stories (like InterVideo's press release dissappearing when it is sitting in plain site).
Never underestimate the dark side of the Source
No, I dont think so - as far as I know the version check is different from what the default bookmarks are doing. It's possible the home page setting is connected to the version check, personally I have it set to "blank" so I'm not running into that.
Having said all that, the article only talks about default bookmarks as shipped with the product - I agree with you that the version check is annoying as well, but that's a whole seperate can of worms...
-John
I'd love to. unfortunately I lack time and skill to code my own browser (if I want something more than text, at least)
But the sad state of affairs is that INTERNET EXPLORER CURRENTLY IS THE ONLY BROWSER THAT FUCKING WORKS!
Don't tell me about standards and how the evil empire embraces and extends. I'm talking reality here. So many sites uses MS specific code that I'll always need IE as a backup. I do web pages for a living. (or rather the heavy stuff behind the pages, not the stupid html/javascript shit) and I see why Microsoft is winning. It is easy. They give people what they want!
People want "cool" sites. I know it is stupid, and so do you, but the other 99% of the web surfers think those flash intros and AciveX gizmos are nice. If a page renders and updates faster in IE than netscape, people will use IE. If a page is inaccessible with Lynx, nobody will use Lynx (exept hard core geeks and disabled persons) If people get a virus because of shitty security in IE and windows they will complain about "that damned Gates" and continue to use Windows and IE because they work. Someone will switch to Linux only to find that his favorite web site no longer works. (and that Netscape crashed three times) "Sorry, Linus. Nice system and all, but I'll stick to windows, since they have this working web browser."
I'm worried, because if there is not a serious competitor to MSIE out there soon we will have a MS proprietary web.
Boy, am I pessimistic today?
All opinions are my own - until criticized
He's got a point there...
It's *unbelievable* how Netscape can screw up doing even the simplest DHTML.
Microsoft may not have a standards compliant browser, but at least it behaves as documented, which cannot be said from Netscape.
The reason they use a redirection might be because if a site changes its address the bookmark still works because microsoft will update the redirection link. Though I have no idea why cnn.com would ever change, but who knows.
I must say that the world will be a better place the day "webdesigners" like you are erased off the face of earth. There's no need for "webdesigners" who are unable to understand the principles of HTML and too stupid to design pages that are still browseable when your setup ([OS¦fonts|browser|plugins][|-configuration]) is just a little bit different from theirs and you don't have a direct >10MBit^-s connection to the webserver.
"Guille Bisho" wrote in message
news:39B84795.8A32DC4F@redestb.es...
(snip possible good catch)
Good possiblity something fishy going on there. The XMLHTTP object is installed and registered with IE5 and functions without prompt under default settings. The example code below will send an HTTP request to MS, fetch and parse as html the response:
<script>
function SubmitTrackingInfo(){
var objHTTP = new ActiveXObject
("Microsoft.XMLHTTP")
objHTTP.open("GET", "http://www.microsoft.com", false)
objHTTP.send()
xmlDoc=objHTTP.responseText
document.write("" + xmlDoc + "")
}
SubmitTrackingInfo()
</script>
In the case of the search.msn.com example. There is additional data being sent back to the server: objHTTP.send("BSTR")}function fnInit(store). Clearly the name of the function firing all this: "SubmitTrackingInfo" can suggest some things. More so the recent "ballyhoo'd" anouncement by MS to allow greater control over privacy for their customers, with the addition of a "cookie" privacy control add-on for Internet Explorer 5:
http://www. microsoft.com/presspass/features/2000/jul00/07-20c ookies.asp
So, while _everyone_ else's "cookies" are curtailed by this privacy add-on for Internet Explorer, Microsoft's operations utilise this method of 'non-cookie" tracking?
Conspiracy theory of course ;-) but perhaps worth investigating thoroughly
by someone with experience as to what exactly is going on?
Anyone notice Netscape did the same thing? It's called URL redirection. So they can keep track of $hits$ and as someone mentioned if the URL changes no problem... This is news?
JOhn
Campaign for Liberty
>What's wrong with adopting to Microsoft's
>IE standards?
Nothing, if they're good, useful standards that can contribute to the development of web technologies. This is one of the things the W3C is for. If Microsoft introduce a new 'feature' or 'standard', the W3C may decide to implement it in their HTML specification. All well and good, but in the meantime users of other browsers are left out in the cold. And if 'everyone' accepts Microsoft's new 'standards' before they're in the W3C's HTML spec, then the very idea of 'standards' is completely invalid. So if you really think HTML is a worthwhile cause, stick to W3C spec and don't use any 'standards' that aren't included in it.
(Of course, this leads to the problem that the browser's don't fully support the W3C spec, but that's all the more reason they should work on getting THAT done before they think about adding new and unusual features...)
First of all, the probable original reason for using redirs is if the URL changes. The secondary reason is probably so Microsoft can have a hold over the companies (if you don't pay us $1 Kajillion, "My Weather" will go to....). A side-effect is that Microsoft can track how many people use each link (and maybe who those people are).
But if you think about it, Microsoft could already do that even without using redirs. The obviously have a "partnership" with the companies at those links--they could just ask each company to send them data on people who arrive from those links (by adding some data to the URL, by sending a special header, whatever--better yet, just track ALL IE users to those companies--or why limit to IE users?). Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by slightly less malice.
--
Linux MAPI Server!
http://www.openone.com/software/MailOne/
Linux MAPI Server!
http://www.openone.com/software/MailOne/
(Exchange Migration HOWTO coming soon)
I was just pointing out that it has been obvious that this was the case, and more to the point, HAS been the case since about IE2.0 on Win95. If you've only just noticed it, well, you should pay more attention when browsing.
Bite me. Well actually, don't bite me. It would hurt and probably not taste very good.
John Wiltshire
Fear: When you see B8 00 4C CD 21 and know what it means
I agree. IE just makes more sense to me. Simple stuff like this: follow W3C specs to develop simple HTML page with CSS, test in IE, works nicely, test with Netscape, all f***ed up. That kind of thing will make you give up on Netscape. It't nice to see somebody with the same sentiment on /.
Because it appeals to the user of the page, of course.
You may not feel the need for complex and visually appealing websites, but that doesn't mean that anyone else does.
why would ms use such a visible way redirecting stuff if it's used for tracking? ...)
They could easily put a little bit of code somewhere that tracks every url entered, every bookmark used and every link clicked, and then upload it sometimes in a compressed form (eg outlook mails it, windows-update uploads it, smart installers
Of course that information would be worth millions in customer profiles... If not more...
check this out:
i cle,tkgk0081en
/. banner ad, and it redirects you to another site! Oh my god! Evil Andover is tracking my browsing!
http://images.slashdot.org/cgi-bin/adlog.pl?art
This is a link from a
Sorry, just feeling a bit paranoid this morning... web redirects are nothing new. They can be used for a variety of legitimate features such as load balancing, randomizing, hit tracking, etc etc. Why is it inherently evil when Microsoft does it?
---- I made the Kessel Run in under 11 parsecs.
Clicking on a bookmark in IE 5 will pass your requests on through your ISP's server, which runs a peice of tracking software called "named" and "bind". Linux zeolots wearing tinfoil hats are reported as feeling "Mighty glad they don't use Microshaft products", while everyone else is laughing at them. More on that later, but first...
I noticed that some of the redirected URLs selected MediaPlayer as the default player. Seems Microsoft is more interested than just using the links purely for redirecting purposes.
I agree that IE is by far and away the best browser out there, for stability and rendering speed and being able to display XML, for example. In fact I often use windows platforms specifically and solely in order to browse the web. A sad state of affairs.
BUT...I have never found a site that I can only view with IE. Please point me to one. I'm sure they exist, but they're obviously not any sites that I ever use. In fact any web agency worth their salt will at least make sure a site downgrades elegantly into NS.
However, if Mozilla doesn't get quick and stable really soon, perhaps we will start seeing IE only sites.
Well said, well said :) ;)
Some people have no sense of humour, if I still had moderator points you'd get a "+1 Funny"
Honestly, putting a story like this on slashdot to wind up slashdottees is easier than winding up a pitbull terrier by trying to take it's steak dinner from it...
This isn't all that bad. MS tracking the use of these default bookmarks in part means that they are attempting to better accomodate the user. One of Microsoft's most underhanded and dirty tricks for selling tons of software has been making software that is relatively easy to use (oh wait, that's good). So in this effort to be kniving and deceitful they are trying to determine if people actually use these links, and hence whether they should be featured more or less prominantly in the browser. If no one uses them they will go away, which would not be a bad result. Does it matter that a side objective is seeing who visits CNN? No. This isn't a difficult conclusion to come by, given that user tracking is one of the best tools of usability experts to improve products. and MS does have an active usability group. That's it.
my IE 5.5 does not do what you describe. I do not go through any redirect when going to a page. You are all paranoids.
Customer: I want a site that looks something like this, and I want these functions on it ...and YYY $ extra to get it to work with Netscape
Developer: OK That will cost XX $ for IE users.
Customer: Uhm OK
Developer:
Customer: YYY $ extra? Why?
Developer: Well, IE and NS have some different features. Those functions you described are easier to make for IE
Customer: OK I guess you know what you are talking about. I assume we must support Netscape too
Developer: And then there are some other browsers. If you want them supported you must cut back on functionality, or make a parallell low-feature site.
Customer: an extra site just in case someone doesn't use IE or Netscape?
Developer: Yes to catch everybody
Customer: Guess I don't want to lose any customers. How much would that be?
Developer: ZZ $
Customer: ZZ $? How many are using omething else than the major two browsers?
Developer: Less than one percent of your target group, I'd say
Customer: OK here is the deal. Start making my site for IE users. Then you can add functionality for Netscape (if they are still around then). I don't think we'll bother with the rest.
Developer: Are you sure? It might not look so good if some people can't even access your site.
Customer: Yeah, but it would cost too much. And most people does have IE somewhere if they really want to get here don't they?
Developer: Yes. Lynx and Opera users are used to being shut out. They may complain, but they'll know how to get aroud the problem.
All opinions are my own - until criticized
I've never been locked out of a site because I'm not using IE. Am I an ultra conservative web amateur or something?
OK, this happen more in the future, but while 25% still have NS, I don't really think it's a problem.
(I've already posted this question in a reply another comment, but I'm doing it again because I'm intrigued and I'd really like an answer)
P.S.: anybody knows why k-meleon 0.1 wants to act as a server?
Actually folks, I wrote that ending with fake /sarcasm meta tag, as in "this is a joke". Too early in the morning to remember this thing greps out those sorts HTML streams from non-HTML text input.
My preferred browser? IE. Has been for a long time. Never liked how slow and how much memory Netscape grabbed (esp. the java VM). Also never liked how animated GIFs used to consume 100% of the CPU. Been trying Mozilla, but it looks about 8 months away from completion.
Goes to show ya' can't tell on Slashdot what's sarcasm, and what's zealotry. My mistake for not clicking the Preview button.
There's nothing wrong with a visually appealing website, but too many people (usually corporate types) think that in order to be visually appealing, a website must have Flash, javascript and frames. Good, pretty, functional, web design can be done without any of these evils (look at Slashdot for proof of this!).
The best looking designs needn't be the most technically impressive - Melon Dezign's Amiga demos in the early 1990s proved that the prettiest things are not necessarily the most technically advanced. Someone with good design skills can make something useable and visually impressive, without the need for much complexity. Complexity is often added in order to hide a fundamentally poor design.
I'm reading all the replies and wondering, is it finally starting to happen. Everyone knows /. is ant-MS and pro-anything-but-MS. The quickest route to a good karma is a MS slam and ANYTHING even remotely bad for MS is a front page news item but it's a rare day when linux looks bad around here.
Windows products ain't perfect but NEITHER is Linux (or any *nix for that matter).
But - IE's been out for a while and since version 4 it's been stable, fast and feature packed - Netscape and others can't hold a candle to it. Windows 2000 proves MS can finally get it right - there hasn't been a single _true_ negative story about W2K here that I can remember. There are millions using these products who've noticed - hey... I'm not crashing. What is this BSOD people talked about? It just works. MS ain't stealing my personal diary nor is it paying me to say good things about it.
Now this absolutely stupid story comes out from one of the biggest MS haters on-line and perhaps people have finally had enough. Come on Taco, did you take a second to notice that every other browser does this as well? Don't you know your own site tracks the comings and goings of it's users? How about those banner ads? Are you so desperate to slam MS? Your users have noticed and I wonder if enough of them were willing to risk some karma to speak out and tell the truth: Some MS products don't suck. Gates is not a borg and MS isn't a huge death cube from a billion light years away - it's just a hugely successful company that started out much MUCH smaller than any of the current linux companies who rode the wave and sucked down millions/billions in IPO and VC moneys from the unwise. MS came outta a dream of two people without any cash - kinda like Apple. They worked hard and played hard ball to get where they are. If you used any "dirty tricks" - I think no more than any other successful company (wanna check Oracle's records? Novells? Even Apple isn't lilly white. And if you think Red Hat got to where it is just cause it's being "nice" - well... just think about it and review those news stories AFTER the IPO buzz faded).
Anyway, sorry for the long post - I just think a backlash against unnecessary paranoia might be long overdue. If you got a legit beef and can prove it - hell yeah, great, go for it. But, if you have to resort to mud slinging like this in order to make your personal enemy look bad (especially if the mud could equally be thrown at yourself) - you only make yourself look desperate and show us all that you feel you are on the losing side and going down.
Just MHO of course, YMMV.
db
(now, lets see if there are any honest moderators)
I've not seen this mentioned and I'm surprised /. didn't make great hay out of this story but...
http://www.pc-help.org/privacy/ms_guid.htm
That I found linked from SecurityFocus.com
Scary stuff, no? And if you block refers AND cookies you CANNOT navigate their sites as it supposedly gets caught into some sort of loop. If you've got cookies turned off they use refers to track you on their site using a GUID set in the URL and then hidden with a redirect! Just turning off cookies isn't good enough anymore! Thankfully for me @Guard can block refers too, a real shame Symantec bought the product and turned it into crap!
Interesting that this came about just as IE was about to introduce tools to block 3rd party cookies isn't it? Create a feature but make sure YOU are immune from it - cute.
Supposedly the Ad Banner folks are really up in arms about this new security feature in IE and are "meeting with MSFT". Gee, what do you think "meeting" means? Little money moving around maybe?
It's been found that 3rd party sites can redirect through the MSFT GUID server and use the GUID just fine - wonder if the ad banners will start doing that now. And you thought being tracked with an SSN was bad?!
Welcome to the 'net - here's your GUID and if you don't accept it you can't go anywhere. Here thought I had to worry about the Congress Critters trying to create some sort of silly Internet License - Microsoft has apparently not waited on them! Let's hope this practice doesn't spread and that bringing this slimy thing to the light of day will make it wither and die...
Build it, Drive it, Improve it! Hybridz.org
Netscape has been doing this for a few years now.
Executive ability is deciding quickly and getting someone else to do the work. --John G. Pollard
Just a point on your last line coward --> "This way, the internet will have mostly high quality sites (assuming the developer is at least competent)." IF the developer is in the least bit competent and aware of what they're doing then coding for Netscape and IE is not a problem. Any site that is only visible to IE -- or anyother- browser gets my goat up as the www is NOT and NEVER should be tied to one browser.
--- Users are like bacteria -> Each one causing a thousand tiny crises until the host finally gives up and dies.
Or at least, they see what a newbie visits, and profile that newbie's tastes - until said newbie either discovers that there _is_ more to the internet than MS-sanctioned sites (and yes, Ginger, much of it is neither porn nor casinos), or gets sick of bouncing off Microsoft every time they pick a "Favourite".
When a client insists on using either IE or NS, the first thing I do is axe all of the bookmarks and make Google their home page.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Okay, troll me all the way you want.
But it's the truth.
xer.xes -- 4181
http://home.netscape.com/bookmark/4_08/cbsmarketwa tch.html
And unfortunately, IE appears to support a larger subset of the standards than Netscape 4.x.
The disparity is so great for the designer, it often comes down to a choice between supporting Netscape and complying with standards.
IE has its own wacky features, but they tend to be things that most people don't use anyway and can safely be ignored.
Mozilla, of course, is a whole other matter. If it ever gets to the point that it runs faster on a windows box than IE, it will be a serious threat.
where there's fish, there's cats
Click to go to the home page of some software package and freshmeat puts up a "You will now be redirected to URL..." page.
What data does freshmeat gather??? At least they tell you.
This shows how Microsoft is still clueless about the enterprise market.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
Yup, you're right. As we are all aware enough not to be taken by this, then why on earth is this even a /. story? Oh well..
Mr. Ska
By your reasoning, IE doesn't do it either. In IE if you bookmark User Friendly, Freefall, etc, you'll go direct.
But you missed the point. Only the default links that came with the browser have redirects. Same with Netscape.
bp