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The proper way to define 'center' would probably be to look at all the viewpoints out there and find a middle ground. Relative to the far-right and far-left wackos, you'll find that both American parties are to the right.

Of course, the 1-dimensional axis is hardly adequate for this. The political compass looks at a 2-dimensional classification with economic left/right and authoritarian/libertarian axes.

So conservativism (limited government) is equated with communism(totalitarian government). I guess the gubment education is paying off eh?

Do you see this administration engaging in limited government, or espousing freedom in any way, shape or form? I certainly don't. How much larger has the budget grown under under these GOP controlled executive and congressional branches of government? How many more laws and repressions of basic constitutional freedom and civil liberties has this GOP instituted? How limited has their role been in "Nation Building", that term so Bush disdainfully spouted to tar Clinton's policies in the Balkans and Africa, and yet exactly the same has he done (poorly) in Afghanistan and Iraq.

You call that "conservative"??? I call them "authoritarian", but certainly not "conservative".

Better check your political compass, buddy.

Cheers,
Maynard

Here are my views:

Please note that I do not fit in any of your boxes correctly. Please accept my apologies for that.

Anyway, according the the "world smallest political quiz" at Libertarian Party:

Personal Issues

Yes Military service should be voluntary. (No draft)
No Government should not control radio, TV, the press or the Internet.
Yes Repeal regulations on sex for consenting adults.
Yes Drug laws do more harm than good. Repeal them.
Yes People should be free to come and go across borders; to live and work where they choose.

Economic Issues

Yes Businesses and farms should operate without govt. subsidies.
Yes People are better off with free trade than with tariffs.
No Minimum wage laws cause unemployment. Repeal them.
No End taxes. Pay for services with user fees.
Yes All foreign aid should be privately funded.

At this quiz I have scored 12. Where 0 means 100% liberal and 40 means 100% conservative. That makes me between the two Clintons.

At Political Compass I got placed very colse to Ghandi and Dalai Lama, exact oppisite of g.w.bush.

Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -4.25 (left = -10, right = 10)
Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.62 (lib = -10, auth = 10)

My problem with the Libertarians is that they aren't just libertarian (meaning that they advocate the opposite of authoritarianism - keep the government out of as much as possible), but that they had to decide to be right economically, too. Why isn't there a party for me, a moderate-left libertarian? I think more Americans should be educated on what the political choices are - ie that there should be more than two choices because its more complicated than left and right.
Check this out to see what I mean. I'm Economic Left/Right: -3.62, Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.28, out there next to the Dalai Lama. He's so cool.

Part of what makes the GTA series sell is that there doesn't seem to be a line Rockstar won't cross. The first company who makes a game that crosses a new line is first to market a game with some totally new aspects which makes the game more interesting.

For an alternate schema, try The Political Compass.

Well, first off, I disagree with your categorizing (modern) libertarianism as "right wing".

Obviously, there are economic and social issues and so at a minimum you need two coordinates rather than one to measure someones political viewpoint (another more complex test that might interest some people is the Political Compass). However the right-left catagorisation really applies to economic issues and on that axis american "libertarians" are very "right-wing". They may differ significantly from Republicans and Democrats on social issues but to a much lesser extent on economic ones.

"Anarchism is diametrically opposed to capitalism first and foremost." CLASSICAL anarchism is, definitely.

Precisely, you admit that anarchism is opposed to capitalism but you want to redefine it (by you I mean american "libertarians"). Anarchism is opposition to all hierarchy, including capitalism. Anarcho-capitalism is a contradiction in terms.

If you use just one political scale things tend to wrap around and become meaningless. Libertarians are half far left and half far right. "Classic" liberals and "classic" conservatives end up right next to each other in the middle when you build some bogus scale like libertarians on one end and NAZIs on the other. (BTW, put the two on either end of the scale as it makes just as much sense)

As you suggest, the political spectrum doesn't have just a single axis. In fact, there are a several websites out there with multi-axis political scales. Here is a very good one and a much more slanted one (it takes Capitalism for granted).

Another issue you allude to is how the meanings of some words have changed over time. For example, the word "socialism" has been horribly distorted from it's original meaning. "Anarchist" also has a lot of baggage attached to it. Our political debate is horribly weakened by this distortion of language.

Ah well.... "War is Peace" after all.

I can't find Twirlip's specific post on the subject. What I can find of Twirlip's seems very pro-USA Government and Bush. Including a link to a piece that I can't figure out is sarcastic or a alternate reality from the one I experience. Specifically something recent in Twirlip's journal points to Eagle7

for example: "Explain why you think 9/11 is more tied to Saudia Arabia than Iraq."

My explanation, all the hijackers that died were from Saudi Arabia and there is enough evidence that the project was funded out of Saudi Arabia that some ever hopefuls have funded a class action against some Saudi banks and high flyers. So far there has been no link estabished between Saddam Hussein and Al Quaeda, in fact given AQ's principles, they are more likely to be against Saddam than with him, and I think Saddam knew that.

BTW, I think Bush was impatient because he didn't seem to give a shit for 15 years what Saddam was up to and all of a sudden, they have to have a war before summer breaks and next year's elections. Why? And where are Saddam's weapons now?

And more fun, friendly fire and helicopters in sandstorms seem to be taking a higher toll than they will admit that the Iraqi's have got. I still can't figure out that kind of propaganda ie that it is better to say that "we shot our troops" than "Saddam's army shot our troops".

about the lambs. I really think you don't want to know. And cats - omg as long as you can disable their claws and still access the balls, tricky tricky. I wouldn't be game to try it. Actually I personally wouldn't do sheep either.

and pardon my southern ignorance but what is AKC? Interesting that they tried to take the subjectivity out of breed (of what? Sheep?) standards. And funny that it showed up inconsistencies in their standards. It would suggest a rewrite to me, and maybe an agreement to accept the subjectivity. (unless it is abused - like in Olympic ice skating - oops).

BTW I'd be interested to know which quadrant of the Polticial Compass you or twirlip score in. I came out in Ghandi's quadrant although a little further to the right. Something about being a capitalist pig that likes to look after the people who cannot look after themselves. Very feudal I suppose, but I'd rather hand over money to someone who asks for it politely than have it stolen from me by a mugger or house breaker...

And I wish Eagle7 would put more line breaks in.

"Why does everyone assume that the only alternative to capitalism is communism? (Why does everyone assume that because I'm not a Republican I'm a Democrat?)"

Because people still think politically [not to mention in other areas] in a dualistic sense.

Want an alternate model? Try the Political Compass

Frankly, this is another McCarthy straw man. Liberals (socialists) arent of the opinion you should be told what to do. Those are Fascists. There is a differnce. Have a look here: Political Compass to learn that economics and personal liberties are not the same, they are in fact seperate ideas.

An economy, run by those who would be selfish excludes the ability of those who would like to be selfless.

Your right to flail your arms about ends at my nose. For instance, your right as a 'consumer' or 'producer' ends at putting one micron of anything into the river or air that *we* dont approve. Your abusing *our* commons. By definition, societies and the individuals within them do not exist in a bubble. If you propose to do away with labour law, because it hinders your "getting paid", do you not realize it causes strife in others? your cousin? your neighbour? Unbridled capitalism and this independance fantasy is absolutely unsustainable... the reality is every time you make a profit, someone else paid too much and their standard of living decreased equal to your improvment... so, who deserves to live well?

The Political Compass

Yeah, you're an idiot. You're an idiot because, instead of trying to disprove someone's argument, you simply try to ridicule them (I say try, because you fail miserably). Case in point is calling someone a "Choamskyite" (making yet another spelling mistake). Sure, I've read Chomsky. I've also read Boudrieu, Petrella, and John R. Saul (who's now the consort to my Governor General...oh well, nobody's perfect!). I've also read Milton Friedman and laughed at his "invisible hand", which has no basis on scientific fact but his rather a profession of faith for capitalists wannabes. I read a lot. So, yeah, I'm a Libertarian Leftist - I took the test. So, we know what I am, and we know it threatens you and your black-and-white view of the world (hence your derisive but falsely confident reply). Now what are you, apart from an idiot? Can you actually formulate an argument, or are you only capable of...whatever nonsense it is that you write.

Well it's a Well known Secret that the Worthless Riches amassed by Poverty Stricken Billionaires on dark days is used to purchase Jumbo Shrimp!!! This proves the Socalist Capitalists are waging a Peaceful War against the Idle Workers.

Going over my head? Don't flatter yourself. I already understood that your extremely limited view of the world doesn't recognize the Libertarian Left as a possibility, and yet it is. Since I'm feeling generous today, I'll enlighten you: the Left/Right dichotomy mainly concerns itself with economic matters, i.e. laissez-faire economics vs. a planned economy. Of course, there are many degrees in between each extremes, but we'll leave it at that for now (I wouldn't want your head to explode). In addition to the economic aspect of politics, though, there is also a social dimension, represented by another axis, Authoritarian/Libertarian. Therefore, you can have a Libertarian/Right form of govt. (something a bit like the U.S. today, but with less govt.), Libertarian/Left (that's me), Authoritarian/Left (that would be the U.S.S.R. under Stalin, for example) and Authoritarian/Right (Nazi Germany is a good example). I disagree with all except my own, though I'm more strongly opposed to Authoritarian regimes than to the Right (even though I still am), something which was reflected in the test - you should take it, you might learn a thing or two about yourself.

There, you'll go to bed less of an idiot tonight. No need to thank me, I have absolutely no more time to lose with the likes of you. Goodbye.

Jeffrey Simpson wrote a book called "The Friendly Dictator.

I would suggest that you read something more worthwhile instead of falling into this masterbation-cum-individual liberty bullshit.

Yes we should all be able to do as we please, but there is a cost.

Please, take the survey @ Political Compass

personal freedom != unconstrained capitalism.

check out the Political Compass. It's much better than this out-dated left-wing, right-wing model.

Well, it all depends what flavour of communism(probably Marxism) you're thinking.

If you take the complete social-libertarian perspective (Anarchism), you would be having contributions to a community that benefit everyone as a whole. GPL'd software is not viable in a capitalist market because you're selling software that gives you no edge over someone else who's selling the same thing. If money was to be made on the software alone, the market would get flooded with the GPL'd software and the price would bottom out to the lowest cost of distribution.

Companies that make money by providing Free Software are not capitalizing on the software itself, but the 'value-added' services, manuals, and most likely proprietary software tossed in. If they were generating huge income from the sole sale of software, we'd see Microsoft join the Free Software movement.

Marxism, would have us hand over our code for the 'greater good of the people' - as history has taught us, a totalitarian regime would ensure this. Anarchism, it's an individual choice. But anarchism works on the ideals that we can live better by working together, but working together because you want to. Not because someone in a position of authority has forced you to.

For more info on Anarchism:
www.infoshop.org/faq/index.html
To determine your political standing:
www.politicalcompass.org

These days, Greenpeace aren't a charity or a lobby in any meaningful sense of the word.

Bullshit. You are assuming no one has a view of the world other than yours. Some people are capable of altruism. That has nothing to do with whether or not you think they are.


They are in the entertainment business for Western teenagers, and they have to keep their name in the news to keep the donations rolling in

I have absolutely no comment for this - it's a result of your biased opinion, not an issue of substance.

Cynical? Perhaps.
I think it is a significantly more complex problem than 'cynicism'.

But their dodgy science has done a lot of harm

Take a car, close yourself in a garage and see let us know what effect this has on you. While your at it, whip up a nice pre-cocktail of the water down the river from %insert_big_chemical_company_factory_near_you%. Let us know the result of your experiment... how about a little "common sense" eh?

to the idea that anyone with something to say on the environment doesn't have a radical left-wing axe to grind.

What does the "Left" have to do with expressing concern for having a healthy environment? It sounds like your trying to rally the "useful idiots of the Right" by suggesting the Green Movement is employing the forces of the "left leaning usefull idiots"...really, lets give the rhetoric a break... (oh, btw, please see site saying "Left" and "Right" means nothing - except in places with unhealthy political duopolies - Republican and Democrat do not political philosophies make...)

Its difficult for most North Americans (unfortunately I include my Canadian Countrymen) to see through simple Jingoist myopia and McCarthyism when talking about Socialism and Communism (and any Socialist/Communist States).

Most dont see any difference between Fascism (Totalitarianism) and Socialism. McCarthyism did a fine job in making the two synonymous -- when in fact Communism (Socialism) is more compatible with a Democratic (and rep.democratic (like Canada)) state, and Capitalism is more in line with Totalitarianism.

For everyone that cannot compile the concept of personal/individual Liberty and Freedom in a Socialist or Communist State please see Political Compass.org which illustrates the concept, they are in fact totally and completely separate.

Capitalism leads to Plutocracy...dont agree? Plutocracy is the Totalitarian rule by the Moneyed Class. Have you heard about the concentration of wealth in America? How about Enron literally choosing the heads of Federal Commissions.

Its well founded that it was spying and intelligence that helped prevent the cold war turning into WWIII. The Cuban missile crisis proved how invaluable intelligence is in a crisis.

The "Cold War" was an effort by the Plutocratic West to destroy a political movement that it was threatened by. Without sifting through the McCarthy inspired Ignorance and Misinformation that is rampant in most of the West, I will spare you the explanation of What is Communism / What is Socialism and get on to the point.

WWIII, or the 'threat' of WWIII was more an effort of propaganda to justify and fuel Anti-Communist sentiment. Remember: Rich / Powerful people abhor the concept of Communism/Socialism -- it is the WORST thing they can image. The Cold-War was the manufactured 'defence' to this Communist "Threat". Communists (or Socialists) arent 'coming' - they had no more reason to attack - as in military strike - the USofA. The Cold-War was an effort to justify black-ops and squelch legitimate Political Movements... let alone domestic and foreign assassination, sabotage and general undermining of the Enemy.

Missiles going to Cuba was not a pre-cursor to attack, it was more-of-the-same military posturing that was taking place all over the world. America ran the risk of precipitating a war by playing 'Tough-Guy'. They got lucky they didnt start a war over it. Missiles in Cuba were of equal threat to the US as Missiles elsewhere were to the USSR. Why is military posturing / threat by the US somehow 'acceptable or justified*'???? Believing so shows bias and a pre-disposition mis-represent the situation.

*I am a pacifist; I think both USSR and USA were committing heinous acts. I also believe War is perpetrated on The People by a powerful elite (in every nation-state). We should do away with Nation-States and do away with all National Armies That will really brand me a lunatic, Im not, just an idealist because I refuse to believe we aren't capable of solving the world's problems.

They argue that the left-right is very simplistic, so they introduce "totalitarian" vs. "libertarian" as well. Of course it is better, but it still doesn't go a long way.

It's a test on the web site to help classify yourself. If I remember correctly, I got the score (-6, -6) which means rather leftist and rather libertarian.

Wonder what it would look like if you plotted all /.ers in there...

In moments like this you really begin to wonder about capitalism!!!! I love competition and freedom like the rest of us, but man this secrecy thing bugs me...

You can have both freedom (civil && professional) without UltraFree-Market-Capitalism. Further, capitalism is not about "freedom" at all - in fact, it makes fewer people "free" than it makes "un-free"*... its rule by capital; Undemocratic, Unequal and Unfair.

See: here regarding that issue... take the survey - its fun(!).

* Think Plutocrat && Wage Slave; The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles...

Just for the record:

I am a Socialist (though i do agree with Communist thought about public/private capital issues, just not that democracy is worthless. Think Mao vs. Marx). I use GNU/Linux because it appeals to my sense of morality (the same one set that aligns my politics).

Now, anyone who is a raving McCarthy-ite (USofAmerican) who hears "Communist" and thinks "Fascist" should PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE go here to understand how these are not the same thing. You will be presented a quick political overview and have some simple political spheres illustrated, it will also break the left-right dynamic that pidgeon-holes (and hobles) American Political discourse.

Alot of USofAmericans will probably have a very strong conditioned reaction to the word "Communist". The reason I bring it up is simple: A) It is On-Topic. B) I live in South of Detroit in Windsor, Ontario - and I have come to understand that Americans (almost every one ive met) has no idea what "Communism" or "Socialism" is - yet they are very certain it is absolutely terrible. I have taken it upon myself to confront and educate. Its my own little 'out-reach' program to counter act their conditioning.