Slashdot Mirror
Kazaa And Exportation of U.S. Copyright Laws
Mr. Vidster writes "Interesting article in the NYTimes about the potential issues the U.S. justice system must face when dealing with Sharman Networks and KaZaA. Apparently Sharman and KaZaA have servers in Denmark, source code in Estonia, and the developers live in the Netherlands. How far does the long arm of US copyright law reach?"
reaches all the way up my ass.
Jon Johansen can answer that question for you, and he is only a teengager.
Dr. Joseph Hairston
Superintendent, CCBC
How far does the long arm of US copyright law reach?
As far as the money will take it.
moto411.com
This will all take some time. Laws concerning information on the internet varies widely between nations, even preventing the United States from prosecuting or suing harmful virus writers in SouthEast Asia. With enough money and promises however, the United States may very well talk nations like Denmark and Thailand into more restrictive and reasonable laws concerning their cyber-space.
and then Special Forces can go get all the Netherlandish developers as accessories to terrorism. Yeah baby, nothing like a GPS-18 being laser guided onto a tent in Netherlandia to teach some lessons.
Bush in his 25-minute address,
"I call upon the world's nations to support my proposal to give America unrestricted carte blanche to remove whatever leaders, plunder whatever resources, and impose whatever policies it deems necessary or expedient."
That is a sensitive problem. On one hand, as an American I really want to shake the "world's bully" image we seem to fitting into, yet on the other hand I dont' see the problem with terminating access to outside Kazaa servers, then cracking down on the local ones. You may not be able to punish the guy running the foreign server, but you can limit access to it from within our borders, thereby removing it as an offender. That way, the government has accomplised it's goal(music/software no longer traded through that route) without having to flex nuts at the foreign government in question.
Finally, math books without any of that base 6 crap in them.
The real reason we are going to war with Iraq is because Saddam downloaded Episode II off Kazaa.
... stops at the doorsteps of the US elite.
Look a monkey!
Is Sharman Networks oblidged to even show up to court in this country? If they refuse to even acknowledge a lawsuit or an injunction, does this mean that federal agents will be dispatched to Vanadu, Estonia, the Netherlands, and Australia? I think not.
If they say you're infringing copyright, Sharman, just ignore them.
"Anonymous Coward" is for whistleblowers, not unpopular opinions.
Their power extends to the four corners of the globe. According to CNN, the four corners of the globe are Maine, Florida, Washigton State and California. Everything else is the untamed wilderness.
SEriously, their power extends as far as their power is let to extend. Unless countries tell them to stay off their turf, they are going to keep extending and extending.
I dunno, but I know the RIAA's tentacles reach deep into Congress' pants.
Here, read the
Berne Convention.
I mean they are NOW the largest economy... but in 20-30 years... China anyone?
Rememeber all the past powers, Roma, Bizancio, England, etc, etc.
''...And according to a lawyer for the record industry, the programmers in Estonia who once possessed a copy of the program's source code told a judge there last week that they no longer had it, but they would not say where it was.''
Your honour, we looked down the back of the sofa. We think maybe the dog ate it.
If the US had a dutch approach to everything, there would be no problems. It's too bad. Ignoring evolutionary cosmic mind science is bad. We think to immediate in the US, and not cosmic like the Dutch do. hehehehehehehhehe
So, the media companies are attempting to extend US law over the rest of the world. Conspiracy people must be going crazy with this!
Step 3 in 7 Step Plan for World Domination
"Media Company takes over world via proxy. Landmark decision enforces microchip (InnerEar-DRM) placement in ear. Chipped people will be billed on a proactive basis for all music listened to."
Now, all humor aside. Can they truly expect that all the other sovereign nations of the world will just fall in line? What happens when one of the other nations in the world gives the finger to the Honorable Stephen V Wilson? Troop actions on behalf of the RIAA?
The arrogance is truly, truly astounding.
CodeTrap (www.codetrap.net)
After a quick browse through the marketing of the Microsoft website(s) I have determined that nearly all software piracy and copyright abuse is carried out using a tool call 'Microsoft Windows' which is the base of nearly all other software used by nearly everyone.
Microsoft says so.. so why aren't they being sued or something by the RIAA et al?
P.S.: if you don't like the country's political climate, then try changing it yourself, take action, use your own vote and political self-worth. Stop sitting around crying about it. Otherwise, why don't you just move to China or Russia - they would love to have ya.
Like others have said though this isn't limited to the U.S., lots of countries have a long long reach, or at least try to. France, Canada, India, many others have poked and prodded around the edges, with varying degrees of success. And not just copyright issues brings 'em out: content policing and taxation are popular motives too.
hopefully the folks at kazaa will not reply to that interview request in america and come over just to get busted. i sure wish the general popluation had something big enough and rich enough to fight their side to the RIAA. maybe we can vote on our representatives to speak for us. oh wait, we tried that already
The juristictional obstructions to the enforcement of the various entities involved in KaZaa, and others should provide a real sanity check for some of the more draconian copyright enforcement laws currently being enforced by the US at the behest of the RIAA.
Some copyright laws are respected internaltionally, more or less. By this I mean that if a CD pirate is burning copies of commercial CDs and distributing them, the US will ask and work with the sovereign state in which the pirates are operating. The fact that the sovereign state cooperates with the US demonstrates that there is a mutual respect for the given rule, even though the penalties may differ from state to state.
As the KaZaa example demonstrates, pursuing legal action against them will only work if their host states agree with the position of the US governmant. If they don't then there will be little to no assistance.
If the RIAA looks at this, they may realize that their lobbying efforts here have not worked as well in the international arena. They may need to rethink their strategy to one which relies less on using the government as their policman and more about providing a good product to the consumers and equitable share to their artists.
-tpg
At some point, a court somewhere is going to have to determine whether or not manufacturing software that allows the trade of copyrighted materials is legal. If they decide it's illegal, God help them to enforce it. The CDBTPA (or whatever..you know what I mean) is trying really hard to push this through, but it's impossible. As someone's
Let me halt my rant and play devil's advocate for a moment...restricting speech? This is something that is hurting the anti-DRM movement more than it's helping. A neutral person may likely be swayed over to our side until they hear everything referred to as a freedom of speech restriction. Most people don't consider source code a work of speech, just as they don't consider a music file or other audio source one either. Unless it's spoken (a speech) or written word (book), John Doe isn't going to consider the violation breaking the 1st amendment.
--trb
If you dont want to register with NYTimes, here is a mirror.
I put on my robe and wizard hat.
If a pretext like this is really enough to get a war off the ground, I wonder how long it will be before a US president makes speeches about how we must use force to break up cells of renegade programmers who are writing modern network protocols which result in programs that are "in confict with the interests of America." Or, maybe we will start bombing servers "suspected of sending illegal data to Freenet."
You don't think this could happen in your lifetime? Ha!
"Please don't squeeze Sharman."
as far as the plane carrying the S.E.A.L. or Ranger team can go .....
Tomorrow's Headlines
KaZaA Devlopers Disappear!!
Rumor has it that U.S. special forces, funded by Metallica, have taken programmers to the secret base for "questioning"
HallmarkOrnaments.Com
Go to http://www.majcher.com/nytview.html
to get rid of free registration.
It's a free world
As a fellow american I am offended that you think we should be shuting down kazaa servers. It is an established principle of the US that we go after the people who break the law, not those that make the tools used to do so, especially if the tools have functions besides the ones that are illegal. When the US decides to ban civilian gun ownership (see also hell freezes over, pigs fly...) THEN we can start to talk about making kazaa illegal.
"I'll have a Guinness, no wait, make that a Coors Light" -Grad student I work with, who shall remain anonymous...
As the court room drama around file copying programs continues, photocopier companies relocate to foreign lands to try and protect themselves from copyright infringment. Pen companies worry about the uses to which their products may be put and all photography companies temporarily suspend trading, worried that users may photograph copy protected items. Once the floodgates have been pried open even a crack it's all on!
Is because the citizens of Iraq are downloading copyrighted Divxed DVD PRON from Americans. The PIAA(Porn Industry Artists of America) were really pissed when this happend, and so told bush to start a new WAR against this terrorist nation.
Americans quickly became suspicious about the war, but continued to supply Iraq and it's terrorists with "Ammunition".
Lol, seriously though. I think that the U.S. is going the way that those far out religious books claim: There will be one unified nation, war will rage accross the planet, and Pr0n will no longer be free, etc. etc.
I hate those books..
Turn every stone and there I am.
How much is your data worth? Back it up now.
a company elsewhere in the world, simply because it makes money off of U.S. Citizens, then don't I have juristiction over the RIAA, since they sell things to people in my house?
I think the US will see just about the same as far as results are concerned as I will in my 10 billion dollar lawsuit against the RIAA for violating rules in my house.
Regarding the servers on Danish soil ...
....
They can ask the danish govenment to look into the matter.
The Danish people's represenatatives, will then in a democratic fashion, decide if we find this activity reasonable or not.
If we do find it reasonable, the enterainment industry will just have to go after the lawbreakers - the US internet users
Alternatively the US government can just stop US'ians connecting to the danish servers.
Or should we get the same treatment as Saddam and other terrorists ?
"How far does the long arm of US copyright law reach?"
:-(
The US is the most powerful country in the world. We can bully almost anyone...
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
What if the Internet itself had its own law, independent of the jusridiction of any other state? Would this be at all possible? It could be argued that the internet, since it recognizes no geographical boundaries, and exists in its own "cyber-space" could have its own soveriegnty. Computers connected to the internet would be subject to the "law of the internet" and their owners would be responsible for those computers under "internet law." Users of the Internet could have "citizenship," pay some taxes, vote in "internet-land" elections....why not?
...and IN SOVIET RUSSIA, beowulf clusters imagine 1, 2, 3 profit!!!! jokes made out of YOU!!!
Exactly my point..... Money seems to make everything ok and legal... The more money you bribe and pay off, the more things you can do!!
I guess what I don't understand is the selective application of responsibility in the U.S. Guns are not Illigal. Gun manufacturers are not responsible for crimes commited (mis)using their products. End users are responsible. Sharing Files is not Illigal. Software makers/ISPs *are* responsible for crimes commited (mis)using their products. End users are also responsible. Maybe we should adopt a new motto: "Software doesn't infringe on copyrights, people do". - Roach
Hey, stop hogging the reefer!
-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat
No... don't think so... I live here.. I have an American name... unlike you...btw.... with a name like "mao che minh" Why don't you go home..
DOJ don't always get their guy...those offshore bookies have been running for years. They can't come back here, but I don't think they care, living in their Caribbean tropical paradise and all...
-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat
The truest form of democracy - One Man, One Vote. Bush is The Man and he gets to Vote.
China is one country where the US's influence is iffy at best. Being too cozy with US demands, especially when they're so obviously coming from corporate interests, is political suicide in China. You know for all the talk about the great firewall and all this hype about oppression in China it's intersting to note that China is currently the biggest market for backbone switching equipment. So let the US clamp down on information exchange full bore. Hell, I'm sure we'll be seeing executions of children caught sharing toys on the playgrounds soon. That will shape up those little fuckers and show the rest of the world how to run a free country.
Remember kids, scientific studies have shown that the death penalty is the only way to prevent file sharing and other forms of terrorism.
Wired had an article about KaZaA's globalization strategy a few weeks ago.
For some reason, I just see a Saturday night live skit: Hillary Rosen and Jack Valenti at the gym working out on the treadmills, talking about crushing those no good file sharing thieves
Ok, so maybe that was a little twisted. I still can't imagine HR or JV with sweaty brows.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Unless the world agrees to let the US's copyright laws rule the net, there's a big roadbump...
Either the world must agree on some copyright laws (requires new global governance structure), or companies like KaZaa can continue merrily...
Example: Just because a catholic town banns earth-based religions doesn't mean the entire world should, especially towns whose primary religion is earth-based.
geeks are cats who dig a certain kind of cool
Science is the discovery of God's methods. To deny science is to deny God. -- Me
Can I deny God but still believe in Science? Because I don't go in for all that flowing-beard-and-sandals nonsense.
their target audiences have yet to discover the wonders of alt.binaries..... once people start using usenet in the same numbers as the people currently using kazaa, you will see them start targeting usenet.
recently thought there was a sting on people distributing warez on usenet, i believe.
-- john
Apparently Sharman and KaZaA have servers in Denmark, source code in Estonia, and the developers live in the Netherlands ;-)
In A documentairy about the original kazaa developers that was rerun not to long ago in the netherlands the original kazaa team (2 people) lived in the netherlands but had their coding done in rusia. Also judging from their interviews I think Its unlikely they still have anything to to with kazaa. They where not really happy about their project during and after their dutch lawsuits, that why they sold it. I can`t imagine them getting invited by sharman to help out and accept but I haven`t read anything factual about recent dutch involvement so who knows. There are ofcourse other dutch developers with p2p filesharing experiancethat apear not that bussy at the moment
How far does the long arm of US copyright law reach?
Apparently all the way up my ass.
Napster-to-go says "Fill and refill your compatible MP3 player", which is a lie. It's not MP3. It's WMA with DRM.
Could someone please paste teh article here? thx
American Law only goes as far as their bombs, which in this world means anywhere...
Mostly because no existing government would give up their sovereignty willingly.
And consider that an internet government would be at least as crooked as any other - and who would it answer to when it ran amok with whatever powers it was given?
!#@%*)anks for hanging up the phone, dear.
Science can exists without God, or so goes the theory. But it seams illogical to deny Science and promote God. After all, each time said God touches the Earth, some scientist will be sitting there explaining what in God's rule system allowd for the change to take place.
This isn't the sig you are looking for... Carry on...
As far as Denmark is concerned, US law won't do much. The country doesn't "hand out" it's own citizens to other countries, no matter what the charges are.
Could someone post the article, I don't have a password or user name....
Not all of us want to give this out.
So like, when a meteor hits the earth, that's God touching it? Or like X-rays from a distant star, that's God?
If believing in observable physical phenomena means I believe in God, then I'll take a front-row seat under the big top when the revival comes to town.
I always though God meant something more than that, like believing in am omniscient or omnipresent "being," which to me seems totally retarded to even think about because there's no way that our non-omniscient bounded-by-time brains are going to be able to "understand" this God thing in the first place.
RIAA did not learn a thing from their Napster experience.
"... three million people typically use the KaZaA Media Desktop software at any given time, collectively providing access to half a billion files, Sharman said, roughly double Napster's usage at its peak. "
I don't know about 3 million users, but KaZaa does have a substantial amount of file trading. The industry is using the same old tactics that it uses against traditional pirates, litigation or bribe politicians to make rules favoring them. Peer to peer networks will be around as long as the Internet is in its present form. Their only options are: 1) Buy out Sharman Networks, and create a killer marketing tool 2) Destroy the Internet and remake into a corporate friendly environment 3) Litigate KaZaa into submission, and hope that the next P2P app is not impossible to subjugate. The smart thing to do would be option 1; they can co-opt P2P like they did the rest of the Internet, but without serious revision to their groupthink, and RIAA are going for option 3. Hilary Rosen needs a window so she can see out of her stomach.
Surprisingly, the RIAA's rep provided a great description of the RIAA's members:
"The copyright industries around the world are not going to stand still and let other companies build businesses off the sweat of their brow simply because they're willing to set up shop in some other country," said Matt Oppenheim, a lawyer for the Recording Industry Association of America.
Thanks to such legal wonders as "work for hire" these companies are building businesses off the sweat of artists' brows.
--- I wish I could hear the soundtrack to my life. That way I'd know when to duck.
Guy has a $26 million dollar price tag on his head DOA and we still can't catch him.
.gov only catches those they REALLY want to catch.
Goes to show the
Some artists WANT thir work shared. Actually, ALL artists not under the RIAA yoke want their work shared.
The free speech that is being stifled is these artists who WANT their speech/song/poetry disseminated. These are the files the RIAA doesn't want shared, not Britney's. They know full well sharing Britney's MP3s only helps her, and that sharing indie music hurts her.
Reading stories like this must make the last few europeans that still generally have sympathetic feelings towards the US 'defect'.
I recon myself to be one of those. And yes I do know that not every american is to blame for such arrogant and stupid behaviour, but still, I begin to understand why the USA are so much hated in many parts of the world.
The arrogance and one sidedness (unilateralism) is getting to the point that it is simply unacceptable, also to people who always felt that the US are our allies such as myself.
The US may think they don't need anyones sympathy, that they can 'rule the world' on their own. That laws of others don't apply to the US, but that US laws are somehow more just and apply anywhere in the world (and if not, such countries must be pressured into modifying their laws under threat of trade boycotts etc). I however think this is a big mistake and gets the US into deeper trouble.
I know some 'patriotic' people will qualify this as flamebait, but remember whether you agree or not, whether you like it or not, what I write still in very mild terms (coming from a european with over-average sympathetic feelings towards the US) what more than 90% of europeans are feeling by actions like this.
Criticising other peoples for such 'infidelity' (i.e. being arrogant in the eyes of people with constructive criticism) won't cause such feelings to go away, on the contrary. I don't think it is helpful for the US to loose its last remaining allies in the world.
Guns have been around for so long, knowledge of their use and who's to blame in a murder is well known. If the manufacturer hadn't made it, the criminal would have done it by another means. The same goes for file sharing. If Kazaa didn't exist, some other program would. You could say that the internet itself is a file sharing protocol? So why don't we shut down the internet?
The other issue is the the music/video industry (those pushing this) aren't entirely intelligent. They can't see past the end of their own nose, or over their money filled pockets to realize what the real source of the problem is. They see there are so many people using a program (legal, or illegaly) and assume they are all downloading a copy of copyrighted material. The only way that they can think of, is to destroy the software that allows the sharing to happen in the first place. Their desicion is highly misguided. If they want to get rid of filesharing protocols, they'll have to shut down the internet.
Perhaps what the music industry wanted was to be the first to introduce something like kazaa. Since they didn't get the first, second or even third slot, they feel the need to destroy everybody elses' software.
omebody just post it, ok?
KaZaA is only a symptom of the "disease" that the [MP,RI]AA considers P2P networks.
Suppose one of my friends creates a demo tape that he wants to get out into the world to create some buzz. I could very easily publish it on the P2P networks, create a band web site, and hope it takes off. Now, it is perfectly legal (if my friend gave me permission) to use P2P to distribute this music. It would also be significantly cheaper than paying bandwidth charges to a local ISP if I hosted all of those MP3's on the web site.
So, I've now used technology for a perfectly good and legal activity. So, now I'm supposed to do without because some KaZaA users can't control themselves? If that logic had prevailed in earlier days you wouldn't have a VCR today.
--- I wish I could hear the soundtrack to my life. That way I'd know when to duck.
What is with us Americans who are so eager to start these wars that have no end and no possible way of really winning. They just go on and on and on.
War on drugs.
War on terrorism.
War on people who break copyright laws.
What next? Instead of waging "war" on everything we don't like, why not try and be alittle more creative.
Since there is no way that the RIAA or MPAA is going to stop people from making copies of their shit, why not embrace the technology?
How many people would pay for music if the recording industry charged $9 a cd if you could download it off the net or $11 if you wanted a hardcopy along with the ability to download.
However they do it, if they just made music available to people in various formats on fast servers, people would buy it. Maybe not the average slashdotter, but the average consumer would.
I am disgusted that the US governement feels it is somehow their responsibility or right to fight these battles for corporate America. Our government is nothing more than an extension of corporate America and has little to do with representing the citizens or protecting freedom.
LoRider
From the parent post:
Wait..!!! I know why, cause they get paid for every crappy law they make.. and we all know how corrupt and money hungry politicans are!!!!!!
From your post:
No, they attack P2P networks because the lobbyists (RIAA, MPAA, Lars Ulrich) have massive amounts of cash.
So, you say basically the same thing, and yet tell the guy to get off of his ass, stop whining and change the system, or move to a communist or a formerly communist country. IOW, you seem to be willing to accept the status quo of lobbyists buying laws since "that's capitalism - like it, change it or leave it."
Lesse, we have big media companies lobbying for and getting passed laws that are actually bad for consumers. In order to change this, we need to get the word out to as many voters as possible. Since it's "one person, one vote" as is proper, we need to convince lots and lots of people to fight this. OK, let's use TV air time, magazine ads, etc. In short, we need to use the, er, big media companies...
Hmmmmmm - how effective will that be ya think? You think big media will say "Sure, shoot me with my own gun, buddy!"?? Right.
So, what we need are ways to change the law outside of the prevue of those that make - or buy - the law. Hence, Kazaa et. al. are quite happy to allow USAians to choose to step outside the sphere of influence of the US Congress and violate a law of questionalble value to consumers. Seems like Capitalism at it's finest - consumers going to the best price for the best goods, regardless of what the US Congress thinks. As is proper.
Soko
"Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm." - Anonymous
United-States is every American's country, whether he or she agrees with the majority on anything at all or not. As such, every American has the right to see its country reflect values they hold dearest. Just because someone does not have enough cash to lobby Washignton does not make them any less deserving of having a country that fullfills their dream.
The same truth applies to every country. Every citizen has the right to demand from their country to be true to its wishes, even if those wishes are not those of lobby interests or of the political majority. You cannot demand that every person who doesn't agree with the majority leave the country for another one. This is their country too, even if they don't agree with you.
Besides, there's no telling whether an expatriate will be welcome elsewhere either. Relocation, while it can sometimes have hugely positive aspects, has its share of burdens, such as forever being the unwelcome foreigner who needs yet another work permit and who won't likely ever land citizenship, because he or she came from the wrong country in the first place.
Software is not supposed to be about how to work around a useability issue. - Ken Barber
Until Bush puts KaZaa in the "Axis of Evil", then look out all you P2Pers out there!
Did anyone misread the comment about the source being in Estonia the way I did?
oops, we lost the source in the mud...
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
It's probably not a good time to be a monkey with a typewriter either.
Sigs are bad for your health.
- Punish the users trading and consuming copyrighted content.
- Make legal content appealing enough (price, quality, fair use) that illegal use becomes a minority problem.
I don't think technology as in firewall or access restrictions will ever do it. As soon as a new roadblock to illegal access is establish a way to circumvent it is found. Look at the TVRO (satellite TV) business. What did make a dramatic change there is making legal TV appealing and convenient enough that hacking satellite receivers is more of a novelty than the norm.You are looking at it all wrong. All I am saying is that if you are not a God-Believing person, then a meteor falling in smacking Saddam in the head is just a meteor falling. However, if you believe in God, and you say that God created the meteor (that hit Saddam in the forehead), then it is stupid of you to argue that Gravity doesn't exists with the sole basis of your argument being that Gravity is to complicated to exists without God. It isn't, and if you believe in God, it is stupid to argue that. Geesh, people get so emotional about such things as God. You would think it was a life or death matter.
This isn't the sig you are looking for... Carry on...
Ummm, anyone know about citizen options for these countries?
members are seeing something, your seeing an ad
Well, lets look at Kazaa.
It's website is in English. It's software is in English, and it does not have a Norwegian version of the software and probably never will. Take a look at their Languages page. It doesn't even have plans to open a Norweigan version of their software, but yet they want to release it in Spanish, French and German? Spanish is basically the second most spoken language in the United States, not Norway. Now, if we take a look at the most common languages in Norway, we can see here and here that hardly anyone speaks English in Norway. Most speak, um, Norwegian (most common dialect is Bokmål).
So, as we can plainly see, Kazaa is targeting the US demographic, not Norway/Denmark/Estonia. Yet their servers and establishments are in Denmark? Why? It's to gain marketshare and profit from the American people, yet not contribute the US. In fact, they're taking money away from the American government. There are no US taxes on the products, so your basically throwing your money away. (Yes, Money, there is now "Kazaa Plus" which costs $$$). Kazaa's advertisments target US customers, it's product is made for US customers and it's only intrest is in the US customer base.
Kazaa is obviously not interested in P2P technology or it's future. It stole Gntuella's technology spec and re-wrote it. Kazaa also has Network Supernodes (dedicated nodes, always on) and other centralized components. So if you took those away, expect drastic changes in performance. The RIAA has pretty much presumed Kazaa was built just like that for a while. Kazaa is all about money. Take away the money, watch the developers flee. The "developers" of Kazaa have already started up similar companies. They know Kazaa will be shut down eventually, and of course they need to keep making their un-deserved millions.
Kazaa will eventually be shut down, even if it means Jennifer Gardner running out of an exploding building in the Netherlands.
Congratulations, you've just reinvented the great firewall of china.
ANd how is this post NOT a troll?
Are you guys modding with your ass?
I love the "accept our military power" part.
Countries accept US military power the same
way that skyscrapers accept airliners.
Take a look at US military intervenetions of the
20th century. Uncle Adolf was a pu**y compared to Uncle Sam.
Im sure all those countries accepted US military with open arms.
To head off the flames, let me say as I have in past posts, that I am against the practice of violating copyright, but also despise the recording industry. I am a proponent of independent artists and independent record companies and alternative business models wherein the artist, consumer, and yes, record company all treat each other fairly and equitably.
Sigs are bad for your health.
From the article:
"The copyright industries around the world are not going to stand still and let other companies build businesses off the sweat of their brow simply because they're willing to set up shop in some other country." said Matt Oppenheim, a lawyer for the Recording Industry Association of America.
Building business off someone else's work? I'm sure a RIAA lawyer would know NOTHING about that...
They're not pissed over copyright law violations, they're pissed because someone else is cutting in on their action ;)
No wonder the USA wants no part in the International Court. When you can bully any nation into giving up their citizens to be tried in US courts, what use is the International Court to the US?
Instant Karma's gonna get you - John Lennon
TheOnion seems to be reading Slashdot (or the other way round), because the articles mix pretty neatly. It would appear that after Kazaa we won't even have radio...
- Ismo
Amendment 2: A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
Don't like it? Lobby Congress to repeal the amendment. Or else shut up about it.
Why doesn't Bushwhacker just ban imports to the US? (Services as well as tangibles).
Sure, keep exports going out... The world desparately needs the US to survive, but surely the US is beyond needing anything from the outside world? They barely even know one exists!
This way, no one could violate US laws outside of the US. Better yet, the US could bully the UN into passing resolutions that enforce US laws globally!
mindslip
Go fuck yourself.
http://www.worldtechtribune.com/worldtechtribune/a sparticles/buzz/bz10052002.asp
Your silence is the sound of hypocrisy...
"Apparently Sharman and KaZaA have servers in Denmark, source code in Estonia, and the developers live in the Netherlands. How far does the long arm of US copyright law reach?"
Whoa, source code in Estonia? Isn't that the place in the Dilbert cartoon that's all flooded and has those guys with long beards and funny hats?
(Note: I'm making a joke. Estonia is not really the same as 'Elbonia.' Wherever it is. ; )
Blah, blah blah.
How boring and NAIVE you can get ?
I think that is way more interesting question.
You the Dr. Spork Great who knows how to deal with all the evil that?s out there and can afford to criticize US government for he is not responsible for protecting this country and therefore his lunatic ideas won?t hurt anyone.
"According to top Bush Administration officials, if the measure is passed by the U.N. --and possibly if it is not--the U.S. would immediately launch invasions of Iraq, North Korea, and Cuba; establish oil-drilling operations in Siberia; install nuclear-missile silos in Mongolia along the Chinese border; make English the official language of the planet;"
I would have thought that Bush would want to make American the official language of the planet.
As for the question "how far..?":
As far as your computer room where you're running the software, if they wanted (assuming you live in the US).
Mordor...a magical, mythical land where women are more rare than dragons--but where every man would rather find a dragon
This is complete BS. There is no such thing as "cyber-space", at least where laws are concerned. All the wires and routers, all servers and everyone using the Internet (not to be confused with one of its services called WWW) are *very* real - they're located in the real world.
When you surf the 'Net, you aren't going someplace else, you're still sitting in front of your screen. When you watch pr0n, you don't use cyber-tissues. When you host MP3s via your DSL line and are located in a country which considers this breaking *local* copyright law, the jurisdiction won't probably see why the files should reside in some higher sphere, because they're right on your hard disk which can be located quite easily unless you decide to shove it up your ass to hide it away from curious investigators. (You might be disappointed though, that the X-Ray camera won't decide not to show the drive for your cyber-space theory either.)
Seriously, get real. Most of those people whining for "Internet jurisdiction" simply want to break some law or another, mostly copyright. They should rather spend their time using their rights to tell their representatives why the current copyright laws simply won't be able to withstand the possibility to copy anything, anytime. A lot of good thoughts on how a copyright law could feed the artists while making access to digital assets simple and inexpensive already exist. They're even discussed here on a regular basis, and if this isn't enough, Google is your friend (tm).
Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk?
Should the US somehow succeed in shutting down kazaa (which I doubt will happen), users will immediately jump on alternatives such as gnutella. With dozens of gnutella projects, most of which are open source, developed all over the world, the difficulty of shutting that down is much worse. Most of these projects have no owner or backing corporation. Much of the development happens outside the US and arguably there are many perfectly legal applications of gnutella.
Should they somehow succeed (imho this would require a radical change in international copyright), no doubt alternative techniques such as freenet which have anonimity and encryption built in will be ready to takeover. It's an arms race and the media companies are going to lose it no matter what. It's going to cost them billions before they realize they are burning money. They'll invest in fundamentally flawed technology like drm enforcement techniques, spent lots of money on alienating end users, lose lots of money on crippled cds that people just won't buy.
Just last week, some media company was opening up its servers for one day. For one day anyone could download copyrighted music for free. WTF! They must be really out of touch with reality if they resort to that sort of thing.
... go after only the people who attack us first. Oh, wait, . . . those who attack us first and those our leaders decide might attack us first based on stuff too secret to let us see.
there was this neat idea about a "world court", but, as i remember, the ones who were lobbying fiercly against it, were the americans themselves... finally, the world gave up, and there's no such court now...
well, you know what they say: everything has two sides. they'll have to accept that there's other countries with different legislation. simple as that.
marillchen
Unfortunately for the ROTW, no one is really safe. You see, American hypocrisy^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H Foreign Policy works something like this: we want citizens and leaders of other nations to be held accountable to a World Court, yet we hold ourselves above them (example: America was found guilty of state-sponsored terrorism for our actions in Nicaragua). And after all, if you support peer-to-peer networks you obviously support terrorism. Because the terrorists are jealous of our freedoms, especially our freedom to disrupt peer-to-peer networks.
I do hope that a lot of people are archiving history as it happens; some day the children will have to be taught about the perils of fascism.
"I think all foreigners should stop interfering in the internal affairs of Iraq"
-- Paul Wolfowitz, 7/21/2003
we can bomb every other sovereign state with impunity, invade and remove foreign leaders at will.
what's a pesky border in comparison?
How many "tough on drugs" senators have flipped when -- whoops! -- a cop finds half a joint in Susie's back seat? Anyone here know if the Bush daughters have any "stolen" mp3s? Wouldn't that be a headline.
One thing, that I don't necessarily agree with, that people often site as their reason to want a certain kind of gun is nostalgia. Every member of the Israeli military learns to use an Uzi, I believe it is the first gun they hold in basic. Wanting to have a reminder of what was a scary/important/formative... time in your life is a perfectly valid reason to own one, even if you never intend to shoot it again...
Maybe not the best example, but I feel it does illustrate that technology is not bad, it is people who are...
"I'll have a Guinness, no wait, make that a Coors Light" -Grad student I work with, who shall remain anonymous...
boom!
In the 1970's the British government blew up a Dublin bar IRA style to try and garner support away from the republican movement.
I expect the lessons were not missed.
The French seek a third way around Saddam and suddenly a "terrorist" attack against the French.
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
But the PC was all like Beep beep beep beep beep... ... ...
I was *really* good source code, but then we had to write it again and it wasnt as good.
It was really a
Bummer.
Cheers,
Jim
-- My Weblog.
I hope we (america) gets there hands slapped for this. Even though this is a technology issue - it's still a perfect example of how we push "our" views onto other countries.
I'm almost tempted to go off here about several topics, but I don't want to be a flamebaiter, so i'll end it this way.
Kazza doesn't physically exist in the US. It wasn't made in the US. If the US didn't want it being used they would block it similar to how China blocks some foreign sites. There is no good reason trying to hold a foreign countries product against our own copyright law.
Ave Molech Setting
I love all these wanna-be rightous posts about America being some evil, no-good, sell out, giant corporation, that I even saw compared with the Nazis. Fine, all well and good. Yep, America does indeed have its problems, and reaches too far sometimes (we'll not get into what I think is too far and what isn't). But for all you punk ass little fools crying foul in this little forum, why not stop blaming us when bad shit happens in your country...
Take your own damned advice, stand up to your government. Let them know that you think "Fuck America and its over-reaching power. Next time Bush tells you to prosecute some kid on our soil, tell him to shove it." But don't blame me when your poloticians crumble. I didn't vote for the fucker (Bush or your Leaders), and I do what I can to set things straight on my side, but short of millitary takeovers of your land it is ultimatly up to you to keep things straight on your end.
See, by the very fact that America can threaten your country with trade halts it shows the world that your poloticians are just as corrupt as America's. So go shove your rightous indignation. In a hundred years time America will either be a distant fucking memory of a facist land smacked down by the rest of the world, or we in America will own your fucking soul. Really the choice is up to you, but if it is the former, are you going to learn from our mistakes or is the EU or UN or some other organization just going to take Americas place as the bully of the world?
The way I've seen people flock to America for jobs and that capitalism that everyone here seems to "hate" I can't help but think that one bully will just replace the other, and all you fools on the other side of the pond will be pushing the new breed of Americans around, pretending that you are far more morally rightous than me, the lowly dirtbag US citizen that you have now become.
- I love animals. I try to eat at least one a day.
The power of the New Roman Empire tries to
embrace earth and heaven. It might be
interesting to bet how long it will take until
the New Roman Empire equals the state of the
'real one(R)'
"Si deus pro nobis, quis contra nos?"
Quit redefining "poor"... use the system header file instead. Thanks.
/* __POOR_H__ */
#ifndef __POOR_H__
#define __POOR_H__ 1
#define WEEKS_PER_YEAR 52
#define WORK_HOURS_PER_WEEK 40
#define MINIMUM_WAGE 5.15
#define IS_POOR(yearly_income) \
((yearly_income (MINIMUM_WAGE * \
WORK_HOURS_PER_WEEK * WEEKS_PER_YEAR) ? 1 : 0)
#endif
You want to define certain people as poor? You have three manifest constants to work with. All three of them can only be changed with the approval of standards committees. Knock yourself out.
Notice: Cranking up any of these values to crank up income for the bottom rung is fine... but nothing you do will make them definitionally "poor"... the only thing that can do that is them not working full time.
FWIW: Most wealthy Libertarians, just like most wealthy Democrats or wealthy Republicans, etc., are all for bribing less well-off people to not steal their stuff. The various political parties just disagree as to what form the bribes should take.
-- Terry
RIAA's *real* problem is going to be that none of these computers have static IP addresses, because the U.S. has hogged the IPv4 space, and isn't very interested in switching over to IPv6 until it can decrupt everything in real time.
Makes them really hard to block at the routers, without blocking everything. 8-).
-- Terry
Sure, they are all for free speech and stuff... until they hear that at the heart of the matter is not speech at all, but mp3-sharing. Or, at least, for the vast majority of "I-want-my-napster/audiogalaxy/kazaa"-screaming kids that's where it's at. Sure, people wouldn't be in favor of that anyway, but if they get the impression of beeing decieved by little dirty greedy whiners they are all the more against it.
> They can't *make* us agree to something that isn't in our best interests, and they shouldn't be able to.
Why should they not be able to force you to agree to some sort of compromise ? The USA routinely pressures others to agree to stuff that's not in their best interest. Or, on the other hand, it may actualy be in their best interest to not mess with the US of A. So, why shouldn't others be able to do a little of that ? Because it would be you on the recieving end ?
Apart from this little asymetry I'd like to add that I find it completely normal, healthy and inevitable that peaceful nations agree on things that may be only in their second best interest, just for the sake of cooperation (and stuff). (Which, in the same circular way as above, makes it their best interest but let's ignore that because it makes discussion so tedious
Well, he's not particularly dark-skinned, and he has in the past invaded several other countries and has used weapons of mass destruction in the past. I think we have reasons to be more than a little alarmed about him.
What Kazaa does isn't legal. They make money from advertising. Advertisers pay them because lots of people use Kazaa. Most Kazaa users are trading illegal copyrighted material. Therefore, Kazaa is profiting from illegal activity. What they do is therefore illegal. They either need to work out a system whereby the copyright holders get a percentage of the take (which will never happen) or expect to be put out of business.
Vote for Pedro
According to the article and the US laws anything that contributes to Copyright violations intentionally or un-intentionally should be stopped. CD-Rom burners and DVD burners, contribute to Copyright violations but I don't see them stopping the production of them (could it be that Sony is one of the biggest manufacturer). If we follow the line down then the whole of the internet must go as it also contributes to Copyright violations and if we didn't have the internet then we wouldn't have file sharing and then the problem will go away. The true fact is that RIAA wants to shut down anything it cant make money from, it's got nothing to do with artists or copyright, it's all about money. If they were smart enough they would work out how to make money from it and all the huu harr would stop. One way I could think of is to let people send in a small amount of money for each song they have on a CD and for return they send out a holographic stick with serial number embedded in it and you stick it to the CD and then that CD is legal. They get their money and you get a CD that you actually want.
Access Point Live Mapping Access Points with Google
Have you noticed alot of people's opposition to bombing Iraq? There's not a clear-cut reason why we should and the Pres is being so hush hush about it, it's hard (if not impossible) to drum up public support. I saw a girl 10 minutes ago with a 'No War in Iraq' shirt on, and I smiled to myself, realizing there must be some kind of tangible public opposition for a shirt like that to appear.
Write your MP and MLA and tell them that you support trade sanctions against the US until they change their foreign policy.
They may dwarf us in population, but see how tough they are if we stop selling them water and electricity.
that's a great idea, then you've given them a reason for drm and cpu id's
what'st hat your cpu id becomes your SS# and it is used to track you and all your actions so that you can pay INTERNET TAX TO PLAY IN INTERNET LAND
jesus fucking christ you peple are stupid haven't you seen what gov't involvement in ALMOST EVERYTHING IS A ****VERY FUCKING BAD IDEA****
Libertarians won't tax your incomes anymore. You will be free to spend all your take home pay. Check out http://www.theft-by-deception.com
The cases where Denmark won't, is when the penalty for the crime potentially could mean a death-sentence.
As a dutch resident I can remember a recent story where a dutch family was extradited to the US for shoplifting... although this is not civil law it still raised some eyebrows over here. Perhaps we should all become residents of the principality of sealand, I guess Bush has no idea where that is ;-)
I think that a very small number of people believe that downloading Eminim's album is protected, but the tool can be used for much more than that.
Let's use the war analogy... Kill the enemy (copyrighted material sharing) but civilian (indie bands, anything else that is not copyrighted) casualties are unaceptable.
The part about the civilian casualties is why I don't want to see Kazaa (P2P in general, because we know that when one P2P goes away, everyone just goes to the next one) get blocked.
"I'll have a Guinness, no wait, make that a Coors Light" -Grad student I work with, who shall remain anonymous...
AFAIK, RIAA should shut down pop3, imap, http and ftp services, aah, let's not forget irc and instant messengers, as they all can be used to pirate their m4d-l33t movies, the only reason we breath.
why do invent new technlogy? 'for the movies' aparently.
next time, elect a decent president.
ie: someone who isn't completely fucking ignorant.
i'm proud i'm not american.
On the front page of their site, have users select which country they're from. Deny access to everyone who selects "United States". There, they've complied with US law.
Of course, users could lie - but that's a DMCA violation (circumventing a technology used to protect copyrights) and obvious cracking attempt, how could Kazaa ever be held responsible for that? :-).
I believe posters are recognized by their sig. So I made one.
Well, he's not particularly dark-skinned, and he has in the past invaded several other countries and has used weapons of mass destruction in the past.
So why does the US want to go after this individual? The US has frequently considered such people to be good friends who get dinner invites from the President.
Whelp, it certainly is a big confusing world. So I'll summarize it for Americans... 4Gs, in this order.
God, Grub, Guns, Gold...
I'd like to summarize with the "evil" C-word
Constitution. An excellent opportunity to turn off that magic television set and start reading again.
More Americans need to get thier heads out of thier colons and tell just about everyone in DC to go fuck themselves with the unlubed end, and that goes double for the frothing lunatic with a 4-bit IQ (no names... give you a hint. He was almost done in by a pretzel). This country is supposed to be made up of Americans but it's just filled with cowards just like everyone else in the world.
You are assuming that without some sort of foriegn aid, the given country could not survive or succeed. Aid from the US, EU, and elsewhere increase the financial resources slightly, financial aid is not a requirement for growth. These handouts will boost the riches of the upper and some of the middle classes, but the poor will remain poor, and will be in an even worse position because the economy will have left them behind.
In most of South America (Columbia, Peru, Chile, Brasil, etc.) for example, if [unlikely] some billions of US$ were offered in some sort cash of handout to preserve the rainforests, it would not work. Sure a lot of city dwellers would benefit -- they would have jobs that paid a little more, but rural families would never see a benifit. The money would stay in the cities where the rich would continue to accumulate it, the city people would get trickle-down from government and business, urban people will slowly get trickle-down from the cities, but the businesses will continue to exploit the rural farmers, the people who have to slash-and-burn the rainforests to survive. As the cities and urban areas improve, the rural people still struggle to grow and harvest enough food to survive.
The rich nations are better off offering schooling and sustainable infrastrucure to rural populations, rather than money. Many times we are offering un-sustainable gifts of cash and food, or building roads and pipelines that the people cannot maintain. While those are good for emergencies, I think they are terrible in the long run.
Going way back to the original topic, going to international enforcement of a single country's law over the Internet is really a poor use of resources.
frob.
//TODO: Think of witty sig statement
More than that--nobody has invaded more countries or killed more people with weapons of mass destruction than the United States. Our policy is so hypocritical that I feel ashamed every time I am forced to admit that I actually am an American.