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China Orders E-Mail Screening
Greyfox writes: "According to this CNN article, China has ordered Internet providers to screen users' E-mails for subversive statements. See how fascist governments control the flow of information? Aren't you glad our government doesn't do this? Oh... Wait..."
China is communist, not fascist :)
I am !amused.
This is no different from screening snail mail, and China has been doing that for years. Things like this happen frequently in communist countries. This is no surprise to me.
TWW
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
certain replies
Well, at worst it is only consistent with their general policy of internet filtering/censorship. If they have their "Great firewall of China" this is a logical extension of that firewall.
Considering the number of relays in orbz and ordb that are out of the 210 and 211 sub-class A blocks i would think that perhaps this might be a good thing, in so far as the mail relays getting closed up
;)
Since a majority of that "subversive" text being bounced off of them are for "american get rich way of life" propaganda
Old age and treachery almost always overcome youth and skill.
Will come to an end?
Or, are the messages about reducing debt, ways to make my penis 581% larger (thus causing me having to get custom tailored pants), and pictures of expensive, high maintainance women some sort of attempt to cause me to overextend my credit?
And, if EVERY American goes and spends like George Bush said we should, capitolism thusly collapses, leaving only glorious communism?
I am teaching myself Navaho!
` The new rules include a long list of banned content prohibiting
writings that reveal state secrets, hurt China's reputation or
advocate the overthrow of communism, ethnic separatism or "evil
cults."'
Surely, the government wouldn't want anyone to overthrow ethnic separatism or evil cults...
Oh, wait.
Here, we get things like Carnivore and promises that they'll only be used with warrants. Or to catch mobsters. Or terrorists. Honest.
CEE5210S The signal SIGHUP was received.
The chinese govt. is evil. I don't need to debate this, or read about yet another one of their stunts to form this opinion. Look at what they did in the 50's to Tibet. The Dalai Lama is in exile now, and they force their communist yoke over the whole country. The chinese govt. will fall, maybe not in my lifetime, but it will fall.
"Be true to yourself and you will never fall" - Beastie Boys http://tjhsst.edu/~crepetsk/lotr/page.php?id=1359
Now thanks to Red Flag Linux, filtering the thoughts of your citizens is cheaper and more reliable than ever!
Back in the day, you'd have to pay Microsoft big bucks to squelch dissenting opinions and always had to worry that radicals spreading Western ideals would be able to exploit OS vulnerabilities and cause trouble. Not any more!
I wonder if China will GPL their filtering software?
(By the way, I'm not being down on Linux. I'm just dismayed at the irony of a government using one of the most free [as in liberty] operating systems to actually reduce freedom.)
Fascists are oppressors. Your buddy Komrade Klinton was a fascist.
China is a *communist* country, not fascist. Please, try to get it right. The left you love and adore is equally capable of crushing human rights. Numerous examples abound - look at the media's darling Castro - Cubans die of old age and malnutrition in jail for having dared to speak against the socialist regime in place there. Political extremes, right or left, are indistinguishable to the man in the street, both crush all liberty.
I happen to live in China, and I'll eat my hat if they haven't scanned every email that I've sent which didn't go through this IP tunnel, ever since I moved here years ago.... Maybe the real news is that they are making the ISP's do the work for them? Or is it that they aren't pretending not to invade privacy anymore?
Do any readers here actually believe that snail mail to and from China is any less scrutinized than email will be? My sister lived and taught in China for a couple of years (we are Americans). Letters and packages I sent to her were routinely opened and inspected before they were delivered to her. I can safely assume that if she and I had access to email at the time, those correspondences would have been equally intercepted and reviewed as well.
...that goes if you say JFK or some sort of keyword a tape recorder in Langley comes on. That was pure bullshit, and someone about a month ago tried to convince me that it was true. Don't people realize the computing power that is needed to do such a thing! This hoax at least goes back to the 80's. Like everyone in the telco industry would need to be in on it, and someone would have leaked it all.
But this, is likely not a hoax. I'm sure they are doing it. But I won't read the CNN article because they are so [left/right] wing. They can't pick which side they want to distort, almost like they depend on which demographic is watching.
I guess for the gov't this becomes a great tool for watching the citizens. If they act on the information is one thing. But we just watch people who we suspect [MLK Jr], the Chinese have got a one up since they can watch everyone at once.
Attached [in a reply] is an e-mail I like to send to myself every now and then. Then I watch for that white van that parks in front of my house.
Get your Unix fortune now!
and we are sliding down it at breakneck speed.
Offered for your Fascist consideration...
o- Asset forfeiture of people who have not even been convicted of a crime.
o- FBI breaking and entering and placing keyboard sniffers on someone's PC to snag their PGP key without their knowledge.
o- Carnivore (as you so well alluded).
o- Magic Lantern
o- Linking of state's driver's license databases to provide the equivilant of a National ID Card.
o- Ubiquitous surveillance cameras in public places.
The US government, federal and local law enforcement want to control YOU!
JFK's bush deads' ghost killed MLK or martin LUTHER KiNG.
we all know this service is fucking fake and there is no such
thingasprivacy MONEY LAUNDER-MUTHER FOCKER00-00-00 PIN: ASSASINATE
the fourth admendment amendment CLINTON GORE AND A ANGEL OF SATAN GEORGE
BUSH IS A MUTHER FUCKOR - "in the middle of indiana there is a place 200
feet underground with mainframe computers and 20 tones of mainframe
computers and that was in 1970 " what about now what about the kids? the
government is a child molester- its a whore and its a bomb waiting to blow
up - but now it's in a HIGH SCHOOL! the bomb the american BUSH government
NADER is planted is in a school! its in the ghetto and now it's even on
the steps of their own federal building
Races in CInCinnSINcinnati- are being profiled and lined up "TO KILL THE
PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES" and killed by the police who work for them
"THE HARD WORKING UNDERCLASS OF AMERICA" who don't care "WANT TO KILL THE
POLICE" who they work for - they are their own gang "I and the gangs want
to kill the police" we all want the police to stop killing us in the
streets -we want people to stop reading our EMAIL our email
I KILLED JFK IT WAsN'T the NSA-FBI-DEA-FDA-ADA-CLINTON-or MLK or EVEN
LBJ!? THEY ALL DIED AND WAS reborn with christ when abe lincoln took it in
the back by AMERICA and the soviets in vietnam - the police action to end
all police actions
POLICE=US GOV'T+RICH bush W GEORgEieieiei + CAMPAIGN FUNDS + THE MoB
FUCKING SHIT I HATE THE PEOPLE WHO READ MY E_MAIL AOL-TIMEWARNER I LOVE
ROAD RUNNER- IT SUCKS MY BALLS PORNO
Get your Unix fortune now!
"Facisim should more properly be called corporatism, since it is the merger of state and corporate power."
Benito Mussolini
No, there's a BIG difference between what the USA and China does, and you would know that if you would have read the article. What you just said states your massive liberal bias that is found on the majority of this site. Such things that are not allowed in China's emails include violence or pornography. By the way, here's a more informative article: http://www.ananova.com/yournews/story/sm_498876.ht ml
Such things that are outlawed include "Outlawed writings include any that reveal state secrets, feature pornography and violence or advocate cults."
See the difference there? Thank you.
Whereas the American government reads a lot (some say 90%) of internet traffic with it's "it doesn't exist, honest" system, Echelon. And then there's the one it does admit, Carnivore. And there the Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act.
"See how fascist governments control the flow of information? Aren't you glad our government doesn't do this? Oh... Wait..."
The difference is that China doesn't try to hide the fact that they screen e-mails. They tell everyone that they will monitor their e-mails and people can decide what to say based on that. The US is much more secretive about it.
Or maybe troll... I know I wouldn't have posted if the submitter hadn't added that last comment.
No one legitimately gripes about China because they have jails, searches, etc.
They do it because it can be done without due process. For all your bitching, the fact that you can even complain about the Federal government aloud without fear of being investigated shows how meaningless the statement was.
Of course our system isn't perfect - but nothing is. But saying if you get pushed and if you get shot in the head is the same thing won't get anywhere.
********************
I object to Intellect without Discipline.
If you can't tell the difference between reading email with a search warrant issued by a judge and wholesale searching for anything subversive then you ought to go to China for a couple years and find out the difference. I don't see why the slashdot crowd has its panties in such a bunch over the fact that the government can search your computer, of Course they can. With a warrant they can search whatever they want. It isn't news and it isn't oppression.
Someone PLEASE mod this up!
We are blind to the Worlds within us
waiting to be born...
In Fact, many governments since WWII and before have incorporated features of fascist and communist government into their structure, although this has been done on a much slower time table than a war or revolution. There is much in both of the philosophiea to attract the petty autocract, the aspiring master of men. And over the years, these have been incorporated into laws.
heck, for decades, you had nazis, for example, acting as advisor to many governments. The most benign of these was a character like Von Braun in the Space Program, former scientist of the V-2 program.
There were many from many fields who lived and breathed and believed the original fascist philosophy, and who continued on in their fields. Some areas would be more problematic than others. Jobs like farmers and dentisits would be one thing, probably benign. Business managers would be another. Law enforcement, lawyers, doctors, and mental health specialists yet another, because of the influence on society. The vast majority were never arrested or put on trial.
The end result is that elements of these philosophies have been incorporated into laws around the world, through the influence of these, their sympathisers, and the children they raised, who probably did not know what the philosophy really meant, and absorbed the ideas under the guise of parental instruction.
and so the monitoring of private communications like email, while at the same time passing laws that make the majority of citizens criminals is commonplace.
As a Side Note: Heck you worry about Napster. Did you know that there is a whole online community of older women trading sewing patterns, sewing geeks who trade their files (sewing and knitting patterns) just like any other geeks do? and they are running into the same issues of trading that Napster did, but with the pattern publishers? a much smaller scale issue, of course. But involves people like the fabled Aunt Minnie. Go ahead, piss off grandma. see what happens ;-)
yet another example of an industry trying to achieve too much control over their customers, with all of the usual arguments in both directions.
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
I get loads of spam from China, or advertising Chinese websites.
Looks like sending the postmaster a note congratulating him on joining the Falun Gong might work well.
What difference does it make? Spying is spying and monitoring is monitoring. I just said that the Chinese are being up front about it, which they are. You don't know what the rules here are. Maybe there's an off-the-books federal database in some agency of people moving violent or pornographic material that you and I aren't aware of. Sounds a little conspiracy theorist, I admit, but how hard would it be for $THREE_LETTER_AGENCY to subvert a low level employee at the NOC of a major ISP (laundered through a "mafia" connection or somesuch, gotta have that deniability)?
CEE5210S The signal SIGHUP was received.
The article says: Foreign software makers must now guarantee in writing that their products do not contain hidden programs that would allow spying or hacking into Chinese computers.
This spec would be useful for everyone's networks. Vendors who are accepted for use in China could advertise they met "the Chinese standard" for security.
It already takes me 3 days to send email from South Carolina to ShenZhen (just outside of HongKong)..
~~~
Are you implying that China is actually being more forthright with their actions? (I agree completely, btw). If you're going to fuck us over, we want to know about it...
Your extremist views pretty much negate any thoughful comment you had in that post, and that's a shame. There is a big difference that I pointed out in my original post. Email sent here in the USA does not have limitations on pornography (look at all the porn email now, although a lot of it constitutes spam), violence (unless it's a threat toward someone specific), or any idealogical/religous/cult thoughts. That isn't so in China. Sending a lot of emails we send here in the states would be illegal in China. Putting China's screening techniques on the same level as the USA's once again shows your liberal bias. Remember, it's easy coming up with complex conspiracy theories. Backing them up isn't so easy when they aren't true. That's the easy way out.
You know what, I'm really getting sick of the bigotry that I see here on Slashdot. Anytime a story is posted based on our rights, department of justice, business, etc... there always has to be a flame aimed towards the United States of America. I'm assuming most of the readers here have mostly a leftist view on most political issues, and that's absolutely fine.
But what about the conservatives who read Slashdot? What about us? How do the people who read Slashdot with a right winged attitude feel about biased comments that contain negativity, and to some of us, a fallacy (sp?) towards our government, economy, policies, etc...
Comments as well (I'm posting this anonymously for a reason). Whenever I post a comment that will go against something I read in an article that will have a conservative view to it, maybe 75-80% of time time it will get modded down to -1 (52 posts, no flames, Karma 2, you do the math). Whatever happened to getting 2, 3, 4, everyone's side of the story?
The moderation system on slashdot is awful and wrong. Using an analogy of a hostile government. If I say anything remotely conservative, I will get modded down. Hmm... seems fair enough.
I know the editors will not read this comment, nor will anyone who read this care, but I hope that anyone who does read this post will maybe understand that sometimes you should take into consideration other people's ideas and thoughts and not just have a one track mind and think that whatever Slashdot rights is legitimacy
--Anon
If you just encrypt your email then screening would be harder.
Does the new law prevent the usage of PGP?
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
Precisely. They're telling their people that they'll be sniffing their traffic, while our government made tools in secret (as well as they could) to do it, without technical controls to prohibit their use without a lawful warrant, and supported legislation untying their hands from all that messy "warrant" business.
CEE5210S The signal SIGHUP was received.
They could also start screening all the outbound mail for spam content. Until I blocked ports 25 and 53 to that country, I was getting bombed with it. :)
Visions of grannies saying "the patterns want to be free" come to mind. ;-)
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
It's pretty easy to "win" in a discussion by calling the other guy an extremist too, you know.
CEE5210S The signal SIGHUP was received.
I'm sorry if your views are extremist. I didn't write it. I was pointing out how you were wrong by merely quoting facts I read in the article. Read the article please.
Interesting thought, but let me play the devil's advocate for a little bit: in the U.S., the government can't do this in public yet. This implies that the citizens still have a modicum of power, and that the government cannot yet be utterly brazen. This means that they can't outright say 'we want tax money for implementing a spy network', for example.
That isn't to say that tax money isn't used, or that the network isn't implemented, but at least they dare not do it in public yet, unlike in China.
(For reference, I have mixed feelings about the argument either way, seeing as how I was born in China, immigrated to the U.S., but fully realize that I am still (at least perceived) as a Chinese by the population at large...)
BTW, my girlfriend just bought this really advanced BERNINA machine (I think that's the one), which can connect to a computer's serial port. It needs a windoze OS, and there is never going to be a windoze OS on any of my machines (and except for this, she's cool about that).
Anybody know of any hacks that has been done on the BERNINA machines? It would be great if we could use it with Linux.
I suggested she drop BERNINA an e-mail asking for specs, and if they didn't give her the specs, start reverse engineering the thing. After all, she's the one who is an electronics student, I'm just an astronomer.
Employee of Inrupt, Project Release Manager and Community Manager for Solid
No, you called me an extremist. That's not a reasoned argument. Let's just quit pretending it is.
CEE5210S The signal SIGHUP was received.
Mine doesnt. But then again im Swedish.
What? Them telling people about it has nothing to do with the actual point they are trying to make. They want to prosecute people based on pornograpgy, violence, or cult/religous thoughts. How you make a parallel between China and the USA in that regard is beyond me.
The parallel isn't in the specific actions they're taking--it's that they're taking them overtly. Whether they'd put someone in prison or shoot them for emailing a goatse.cx link or not is irrelevant to that point.
CEE5210S The signal SIGHUP was received.
My company regularly screens both inbound and outbound email for content.
The executives are immune (different rules for them), but for everyone else, we screen. In fact, there is a group of three individuals whose job it is to monitor the "quality" of email.
It's completely revalent becuase that's the basis of them filtering the email.
hmmm...
waaaa!!waaaa!!!...no YOU'RE not argueing right!!!
WWWWAAAAAAAA!!!
shaddap commie
go back to china and get run over by a tank dumbass
A High Ranking Navy Officer was scandalized here in Canada when it was found that he had used a Navy laptop to access porn. It wasn't quite email filtering, but they were monitoring the usage of the computer. I just want to point out that the people of China cannot choose their policies and laws. That we all know. So really, taking the two courses of action upon implementing email filtering, being upfront or not telling people, I think being upfront is cool.
You are merely complaining about what constitutes subversive material (our countries are notorious for turning away erotic lesbian and gay material if its high profile enough in the market, like an artsy book or whatnot) and the more restrictive morals set by the state. Like, sure, we all knew that! but between then government being upfront vs. the government letting 'subversives' get jailed with no warning, I think they did the right thing.
"Old man yells at systemd"
I agree, but think it naïve to think it's not happing in a "black" way. Let's both hope we don't get to the point where it can be done publicly.
CEE5210S The signal SIGHUP was received.
Like it or not, privacy is not a fundamental provision of the Consititution. If you place your messages in the public domain (which is what you do whenever you send an E-mail over the Internet), don't be surprised when it is screened, read, etc., by either the government or anyone who happens to own the router that your message passes through.
If you wish to have privacy, then you must send your communications over a private, secure channel, which the Internet is not. For example, the U.S. Postal Service is an entity that sends information securely; you can rest assured that your letters will never pass through the hands of a third party. But if you transmit information by posting a postcard on a bulletic board, it is free to be read by anyone who passes by, including government law enforcement officials.
You can attempt to make your messages sent through the public Internet "private" by encrypting the messages (which is perfectly legal and will continue to remain legal as long as our government is a free government). But that does not GUARANTEE privacy.
There is a general mistrust of government in general in this forum, which is sad. While I agree that the size and scope of government should be kept to a minimum, we should be able to trust the elected officials in a republican system, since we choose who our representatives will be. And we should certainly trust the executive branch (the ones actually screening the public E-mails) to do what they need to enforce the laws our elected representatives pass. If they aren't, then the people should vote accordingly for representatives that will fix the problem.
And despite what most people think, law enforcement officials are WAY to busy to concern themselves with the details of your private life. They are only concerned for the information that will help them protect the public from criminals.
An unjust law is no law at all. - St. Augustine
Funny. I thought the difference between China and the U.S. had something to do with China having a history and culture that goes back thousands of years, while America has none to speak of.
Well that and all the Chinese people. Did you know there's a Chinese restaurant on every street corner in China? Yeah.
As opposed to a basis consisting of, say, communications to Al Qa'ida, which would be interpreted as just as much of a threat to our state as China considers porn and violent matter to theirs?
CEE5210S The signal SIGHUP was received.
> I tend to think that keeping the government out of private communication is a conservative value, the subversion of that term by the party in office notwithstanding. Very true, anyone who has takein a 12 grade US government should know that republicans (conservatives) are pro 'small government.' Having a government agengy sift through all communications is hardly a 'small government' quality.
But i do agree with most of the original posters comments, people who take 'civil rights/liberties' too far really need to step back and look.
"Obscenity is the crutch of the inarticulate motherfucker." - cloak42
~~~
China, of course, is occupied by the Maoist PLA terrorist group. Communist, not fascist.
Although the nationalist element in their behavior towards their neighbors is somewhat similar to National Socialism.
Let's not forget that National Socialism and Communism are very similiar ideologies.
Becuase that terrorist organization killed 3000 people in 30 minutes. It's a national threat becuase of that. I don't believe that porn has caused death on such a massive scale no matter how you look at it. You are trying to rationalize your original thought with insane analogies that really do not add up.
And calling the analogy "insane" really doesn't make your argument credible. Are you going to call me a Communist next?
CEE5210S The signal SIGHUP was received.
See how fascist governments control the flow of information?
China is not a faciest government, they are a totalitarian government with communist roots.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
By the way, there is a big difference between protecting your citizens from death and protecting them from dissenting thought like China is doing. See the difference? Of course, I dont expect you to see it becuase you are blinded by your bias and radical thought/rationalization.
You see the difference. I see the difference. Does the Chinese government see the difference? Of course not. I don't expect you to see it because you are blinded by your bias and fascist thought/rationalization.
CEE5210S The signal SIGHUP was received.
If you don't believe in freedom of thought becuase it might endanger citizens based on some crazy thought of moral depravity, you should move to China and see how much you like it. Quit trying to rationalize their government's way of thinking. That's why most of their citizens live in poverty.
How bout we do some thinking here?
Fascism is an ideology. A post-modern ideology that rejects the Judaeo-Christian beliefs in objective moral realities, individual responsibilities and choice, replacing these things with group identity politics and the will to power.
Communism is modernist ideology that fully agrees with fascism except that not any group will do. Only economic classes can be used for group will to power politics.
Ooh. I should leave the country now because I don't agree with you. Can you point out where I said that I agree with the Chinese government's way of thinking? Remember, this is all about the fact that China told their citizens that they're being monitored, and our government has yet to do so.
CEE5210S The signal SIGHUP was received.
They argue that the left-right is very simplistic, so they introduce "totalitarian" vs. "libertarian" as well. Of course it is better, but it still doesn't go a long way.
It's a test on the web site to help classify yourself. If I remember correctly, I got the score (-6, -6) which means rather leftist and rather libertarian.
Wonder what it would look like if you plotted all /.ers in there...
Employee of Inrupt, Project Release Manager and Community Manager for Solid
Anyways, I will not be responding to this thread anymore becuase my educated and factual responses are being responded to in a fashion by you in a fashion which is uneducated and rant-like. Thanks.
See how fascist governments control the flow of information? Aren't you glad our government doesn't do this?
Now, when most people think of fascism, they think of Hitler ranting at rallies. They think Panzers rolling over Poland and France. Fascism is actually much less "fundamentally evil".
Fascism, summed up, is a society which gives handouts to the rich. Government defines what should be produced (like during wars) and what is morally "right". Free speech exists, but with restrictions, etc. Effectively, the Government has a focus or direction. When you hear a politician say "our country should move in so and so direction", they're probably fascists.
We've had elements of fascism since inception, but since the Cold War, the size and power of the Federal Government has increased drastically, making us much more totalitarian in the process. The results are mixed, but overall positive since we're still pretty functional.
Right. At least have the decency to admit you don't have any more arguments. Of course, you can ignore this, since it's an "uneducated and rant-like" post. Thanks.
CEE5210S The signal SIGHUP was received.
Anyway, I know I've repeated you a bit, because much of what you say is correct. But calling someone "fascist" is not "leftist name-calling" because fascism has NOTHING to do with leftism nor rightism. You say "China is a communist country, not fascist", which as fallacious. China is communist AND fascist. Perhaps you are the one who should try to get it right.
I can't believe the comment about our opressive government! Obviously you people have not studied oppression in history!
Clearly we must be vigilant in our maintenance of our freedoms, but to compare China with the US in terms of controlling information is simply demonstrating a lack of education.
Have you looked into what China did to US reporters during the Tiananmen square uprising? Contrast that with the US media in President Clinton's face demanding to know what exactly he had or had not done with "That woman, Miss Lewinsky."
The government having the capacity to screen emails at ISPs may be unpleasant to you. If so, encrypt your email. Carnivore _may_ be something that we need to stop, but it is NOTHING like the opression suffered by the people of the PRC.
Get off your self-righteous horse, and live under martial law at the hands of a despotic dictator for a while. Then come whining to me about "oppression" in the US.
But Herr Heisenberg, how does the electron know when I'm looking?
Or Tienemen Square? This just doesn't seem like such a big deal for that government to do something like that, being that they've done much worse. Let me give it some clarification. Millions of chinese practice tai-chi, and it is one of the government sanctioned religions (not actually a religion, more of an excercise program designed to increase spirituality). There are only a few sanctioned religions, and any other religion is outlawed. Falun Gong is the same type of thing as tai-chi, it is based around movements promoting spiritualism, but since it is not a government sanctioned religion, people that practice it get beaten, killed, put in prison with no trial, women have been raped by police, and followers have been put into mental hospitals, until they denounce the religion. So if you ask me, screening e-mail, what a joke of a post when talking about how evil china's government is. Oh yeah, and also what a joke comparing America's government to China, America's government may do some bad things, but they are no where near on par with China's.
This is a common misconception, often reinforced by conservatives themselves. Conservatives are "pro small government" if you, bizarrely, redefine government not to include law enforcement or national defense. Those two areas are considered perfectly legitimate and, indeed, generally expand considerably under conservative administrations.
It's disingenuous to say that conservatives are "freedom lovers" and liberals advocate state control. As far as I can see, the issue is where a person calls for state intervention. Liberals tend to believe that the economy should be regulated by the government and steered toward (what they see as) public goods. Conservatives of course feel that the government should stay out of the economy as far as possible and thus maximize the individual's economic liberty.
On the other hand, convservatives also tend to call for government oversight of behavior -- morally, sexually, legally, culturally -- and rely on the state to make sure people stay in line with "the norm". Liberals, in counterpoint, want to keep government out of the personal lives of its citizens and evidence a much lower drive to regulate the private actions of the people. In that sense, liberals are trying to maximize personal (or civil) liberty.
Of course both of these characterizations is overbroad. Virtually no one fits perfectly either label, and in recent years there's been a lot of diffusion back and forth across that divide. But I think it's a useful categorization scheme.
Also, in a typically American manner, the true way probably lies somewhere in between. The fount of personal liberty is economic liberty -- too much of our lives revolve around earning a living to disentangle choices made in business from choices made at home. Yet economic liberty without a corresponding freedom of conscience is empty and meaningless... such a system is pointless in the extreme. Further, as the Chinese are learning to their dismay -- following in the footsteps of the Soviet Union, which learned this lesson the hard way in the late 1980s -- you cannot have economic liberty (or its attendant efficiency) without creating overwhelming pressure for personal liberty.
The Mongrel Dogs Who Teach
simetra? is that you?
Because if I sent an email saying "I think President Bush is doing a bad job." to someone, the secret police are going to bust in and put me in a labor camp.
~~~
In this context, calling someone an extremist really means accusing them of having the temerity of not sharing the assumptions on which you've based your viewpoint. You begin with the assumption that the evils of the Chinese government are categorically and essentially different, more sinister, and founded on the worst instincts, while those of Western governments are not. Anyone who does not begin with this political epistemology, it seems you label an extremist. If you can control the axioms by tarring anyone who doesn't share them, of course you can pretend to be the rational one.
USA Busted Trying to Bug China's Presidential 767
China Orders E-Mail Screening
The USA tries to snoop China. China snoops its own people. What's the difference?
(At least China tells its own people that it's going to be snooping their e-mails. The USA just does it without warning.)
Zodiac Survey
What you just said states your massive liberal bias that is found on the majority of this site.
Slashdot has a "massive liberal bias." The media has a liberal bias. Universities have a liberal bias. It seems like any gathering of intelligent, educated people has a liberal bias. I'll leave figuring out why as an exercise for the reader.
Someone who actually gets it.
Such things that are outlawed include "Outlawed writings include any that reveal state secrets, feature pornography and violence or advocate cults."
Well there goes 90% of the SPAM coming into my mailbox. It's nice that China is finally making a national SPAM filter for its people.
Don't trust a bull's horn, a doberman's tooth, a runaway horse or me.
There are certainly things to be concerned about when it comes to the gov. but the screening of subversive material isn't one of them. Besides... anybody looking at a Communist revolution in this country or looking to blow up a building or traffic drugs doesn't deserve protection of the law.
China and it's policies are being discussed and somebody called them fascist and somebody had an objection to that so I provided the exact definition. This is off-topic? Maybe those moderations are coming from behind the great wall??? ;-)
Threre is a HUGE difference between censoring people's emails (what china will do) and simply reading people's emails. In my opinion, anything sent in plain text over the internet should be considered public anyway!
I can't believe you got a +5 for say reading email and censoring an entire population are the same thing. My God!
A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
I haven't herd anyone point out that this is one reason why our intellectual property policy to China is so very dangerous.
Both the US and China are going to be pulled toward an Orwellian facisim as companies and powers desperate to force old-world ways of doing things will want to reach into every home to protect things like their "intellectual property" rights. However the US has a democracy and a partially working constitution that will make it much more difficult to take it to it's logical extreme - an Orwellian facisim. China does not, and by trying to break their cultural values about intellectual property rights, we are helping promote a very dangerous political situation for both them and us.
I'd say that really intelligent people, and there are a lot of these on slashdot (as well as a few idiots) accept the rational parts of both liberal thinking and conservative thinking. I for example am very liberal socially (i.e. I am pro-choice, anti-discrimination, etc.), but I am very anti-big government and pro-"strong military". Too bad there isn't a party that takes the best of both worlds and puts it together...
"There are laws that enslave men, and laws that set them free. " - Sean Connery as King Arthur
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Kind thoughts do not change the world
I recall the SLA and other Marxist paramilitary organizations of the late 60's and early 70's having exactly the same discussion during that period of time when they actually thought their 'revolution' to establish a Marxist government in this country was going to win. Their solution was to create 're-education camps' in the deserts of the Southwest to brainwash those they could, and shoot those they couldn't. The WeatherMen couldn't wait, and began a ten year reign of terrorism and bombings (over 5,000) before they got old and joined the materialist society. Guess they wanted to get their share. (Yesterday I saw on TV that one terrorist got married, had three kids, became a Clinton socker mom and had 25 years of the good life before she was convicted of a murder she committed 25 years ago while robbing a bank to support the 'revolution'. She was sentenced to 25 years in prison, and may she serve every one. )
Sad to see the spirit of Lenin is still alive in the minds of some. It seems Lenin's deeds await only the opportunity. That you would see society being in the hands of loonies like that is an indictment of your intellect and education, to say nothing of your knowledge of history. To the Marxist Hammer eveything is a nail. Such a warped view of life. No wonder you folks spend so much time on drugs.
Actually, China is a communist government. Which isn't fascism.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Reading your whole post, I see you have a good handle on privacy in the U.S. But starting out with "privacy is not a fundamental provision of the Consititution" doesn't help. Privacy is of course the spirit of the Fourth Amendment, which most consider part of the Constitution.
Thus far it's true that for the most part the government doesn't kill its citizens. Well, unless they're black and pulled over by a jumpy cop doing racial profiling or something. Or they live a lifestyle the government doesn't like. But apart from that, the government doesn't kill its own citizens! Truly!
And it's true that the media will keep them honest! Nevermind that the media is mostly owned by the same corporations which have been steadily lobbying for the removal of your rights for the past several decades.
But true, we're nothing like the Chinese and we don't really have anything to worry about!
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
I trust our government not because the people in power are necessarily more honest than those in other governments. I trust it because there are checks and balances, and it's structured to bring all sorts of individuals together to create a whole, generally just government.
When checks and balances are broken, and individuals are tested, those in power will show their imperfections. The patriot act is a step in this direction.
Who ever said life is fair? Slashdot doesnt HAVE to be fair to *any* view.. if you dont like their slant ( yes there is one ) then start your own 'news' service..
---- Booth was a patriot ----
...if it would reduce the amount of fraud and spam the Chinese seem intent upon perpetrating. Somehow I doubt it, however.
I agree, these items are not all or purely Fascist, and actually I should not have referenced Fascism in my post, since my examples are so broad.
The point that the original poster was making is, however, vital. We are moving to a police state, a corporate state, a state of increase government control and surveillance, and all of these items are evidence of that fact.
Note that it wasn't a personal computer that they monitored in this case. It was a portable military computer. Odds are they discovered the porn during a regular security audit. Since it goes against military regs to use military computers for porn, the officer was disciplined.
I can't say that I don't give a fuck. I've just run out of fuck to give.
Communist countries?
mainland China
occupied Manchuria
occupied Tibet
occupied Turkmenistan
occupied "inner" Mongolia
occupied Canton
occupied Hunan
occupied Hong Kong
occupied Spratley Islands
Cuba
Belarus
Venezuela
fascist=nazi's germany, moussilini's italy * far extreme right
socialist=ussr, china * far extreme left
know the difference grayfox. the genocide of fascism is over. the control of socialism is *in* baby! all hail daschle, he brings us the cookies and milk...
just like drug trafficing laws - if you have an unopened parcel on the kitchen table and DEA walks in and wants to arrest you cause the box contains drugs (but you havent opened the box and discovered that yet) - and name someone who doesnt get SPAM - so now if i dont like someone in china i should spam them anti-china and anti china govt material and they will get arrested for being anti china... yea allright! (sorry i am sure their is a better way to say what im trying to say, ill be more thoughtfull in the future)
It is important to work to maintain our civil liberties in the U.S. in the digital age, but I find all these smartass comments about the U.S. being the same as China abhorrent; the DCMA is wrong, Carnivore is wrong, but you infinitely cheapen the suffering of the oppressed in China by even beginning to compare these to being jailed and tortured for practicing your religious beliefs. Why not buy yourself a clue before you go out and post trash like this?
"Reality is just a convenient measure of complexity" -Alvy Ray Smith
See how fascist governments control the flow of information?
I'll admit to not being up to date on what's going on in China right now, but am I the only one surprised to hear China now labelled as "fascist"? Sure, they've had some serious Communist totalitarianism going on a while back, but when did it shift over to the extreme right-wing?
Whether or not America is fascist is left as an excercise to the paranoid.
In the spirit of capatalist democracy, this is great news. With MFN status I can see great business opportunities for our wonderful nation. If things go really well, this could be the even that turns our economy around.
After all, what better filtering and firewall software could they buy than ours? I'm putting together the presentation for the VCs right now. If I act fast I could trump MS, IBM, CA, and Network Associates before they get all the business.
Come to think of it, I wonder what business opportunities I can find in providing security systems for the labor camps.
Aaargh, what am I thinking! The real money is in facial recognition software so they can catch the dissenters easier.
Yep, China is where the opportunities are.
Moderators have modded the on-topic parent post as "Troll" because they disagree with the opinion presented therein.
I hereby present this message, which concurs with the parent, for downward moderation.
Liberals unite!
(Moderators, moderate!)
Its hardly surprising that most countries practice some form of censorship or e-mail scanning.
Taco and the rest all moderate comments when it suits them. Sometimes even whole threads.
My point is, that censorship is not Fascism. Censorship is simply one of a wide range of tools available to governments and organizations in order to ensure a stable and healthy society.
If America censored its TV violence a bit more, then maybe we would not keep seeing all these gun rampages at schools and colleges.
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I can tell you have a great future ahead of you in the NSA/FBI/Justice Dept. This is the sort of patriot we need...to bad you seem to be English. Oh well, with folks like you I can see why England is so stable and crime free.
Nothing like a peaceful controlled society to keep the toes warm.
I wish I could see the genius in this comment, but unfortunately, China is quite happy to break down your door if you are using PGP.
Of course, this is what the Gov would love to see here to...happy splintered doors of dissenters, but that's besides the point.
Was anybody really surprised about this? Appearently China has far to go as far as human rights are concerned
It's amazing how many people think America has no culture, when in fact the problem is that America has the default culture. It's just so pervasive that no one see it, it is 'normal' behavior, whereas all other countries have a different culture compared to it.
If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
I don't trust a fair portion of the elected officials because, as the above election shows, we don't choose our officials. If choosing was as simple as having the guy down the street run for office, then I would. But to run for office requires an immense amount of money, a brilliant staff (in short supply, obviously), and all sorts of other things that are not available to just anyone. Besides that, the populace just picks along party lines anyway; which destroys chances for most independents, who I am only a little more likely to trust with my future.
I understand that many members of government are not bad at all, but this is just like saying that most people are not stupid. A Person isn't stupid, but people are crazy, fearful, paranoid, and all sorts of other things but intelligent.1
The US is not China, but we are far from having the type of government that should be "trusted" just because they are able to spin that we "elected" them.
- DaftShadow
1. TLJ-in-MIB
This article is a troll, pure and simple, and people should stop responding to it.
Now I'm going to get moderated down. Again. Hopefully this time it will by by the real moderators, instead of the editors.
If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
No, it shows a certain level of ignorance, but ignorance isn't confined to liberals. Plenty of your fellow-traveller right-wingers accuse the US of being a "police state". Gordon Liddy comes to mind. The Posse Comitatus don't think of themselves as being "liberal", nor do those in the "county movement" so prevelant in places like rural Nevada.
Yep, I'd say your posts are pretty fair evidence that those on the right are as frequently ignorant as those on the left...
Very accurate and insightful summary of US political parties - leaving aside that most of what they do doesn't have much of an ideological bias at all, and is mostly aimed at courting voters ("pork-barrel" programs) or investors (er, I mean "campaign contributions"). But that's really neither here-nor-there.
One thing I've been thinking, lately though, is that the Republicans are more the party of "Freedom" than the Democrats are. Not because of ideology, as you noted in your post. But because of practical effects. See, the Democrats long ago got most of the economic powers they wish to weild legitimized by constitutional scholars. Either by interpretation in court decisions stretching the commerce regulation clause beyond any rational interpretation, or by passing ammendments (like the 16th ammendment). So, the primary check on the Democrat's excercise of their ideology in a place where I disagree with it (I'm a libertarian) is themselves. Usually their laws stand up to constitutional challenge: income tax raises; social programs; environmental programs, whatever. They generally don't get challenged to begin with, and, if they do get challenged, the Democrats win a lot of em.
On the other hand, the Republicans have been totally unable to win constitutional support for their most extreme positions. Thus, the vast majority of ludicrous Republican laws get struck down.
So, the final calculation is that, while ideologically I disagree with about half of what Democrats want to do, and I disagree with about half of what Republicans want to do, in the actuall effect of their governing, the Republicans piss me off a lot less.
Also, one last thing - has anyone else noticed that "bipartisan" means "you vote for my pork-barrel programs and I'll vote for yours?" Man I hold on to my wallet when I hear that one...
PS: I know this is redundant, but this is the only post I'm gonna make on this thread, and I've got to get it out of my system. Is that original new poster an idiot, or an asshole? What kind of moron can't see the difference between mandatory drag-net filtering for "subversive" ideas and Carnivore's (comparatively) targeted use against specified individuals? I realize that Carnivore has some problems, and we should be complaining loudly about those, but to try to even imply that throwing little old ladies in prison for putting up web pages about their religion is somehow morally equivilant to a system which is designed to go after specific people who have warrants and are suspected of engaging in criminal activity is myopic in the extreme. In China, you could've gone to JAIL for making that news post with that wise-ass remark. Here, you just get flamed for being an idiot.
Sure, liberals thrive in societies that bare them from implementing economical and social policies.
.. How they are going about "solving" this issue? Of course, by forcing lowest common denominator on everyone ( inflation of grades in education institutions etc ..)
They are free to preach it but most young people eventually come to their senses when entering "real life" and leave their youth stupidity behind.
Of course there are countries when these whackos did get to run things and now these places are licking their wounds.
PS.
It is easy to be liberal and compassionate, especially when compassion is being financed with other people money.
It is much harder to create and implement policy that actually benefits greatest number of people in the long term ( that is almost exclusively domain of Republicans these days)
Over the last 20 years democrats and liberals degenerated into cheap populists crying for completely utopian notion of equality and especially equal distribution of wealth. Interestingly, recently they even started attacking notion of inherited inequality in intelligence and other human abilities
I truly believe that liberalism will be the ultimate cause for downfall of European civilization.
The ONLY E-mail I've ever gotten from Chinese netspace is spam. I've had the entire country firewalled out at the mail server level since last October because of the widespread infestation of both spammers and open mail relays.
;-)
Perhaps the "Great Firewall of China" is their way of reciprocating?
Bruce Lane, KC7GR,
Blue Feather Technologies
Their citizens are certainly poor compared to those in the West. However they're much less poor than they were before the Communists took over. And they're no longer starving.
Of course, the Communists in China didn't overthrow a democratic state. They replaced an ineffective authoratarian government with an authoritarian government that is at least effective enough to see that its people have enough food to eat.
If you want to see abject poverty, take a trip to India, a democracy. Should we condemn democracy because of India's poverty?
I think not.
Moderators have modded the on-topic parent post as "Troll" because they disagree with the opinion presented therein.
Thanks. I'm now down to 48 karma points so the moderators can only do so much. I note that another moderator modded it up as "interesting".
~~~
China is as much "Communist" as USA is "Democracy".
We are not a democracy. Never have been and are sliding
faster and faster away from it.
>Political extremes, right or left, are indistinguishable to the man in the street, both crush all liberty.
That part is very true. However, your do not have to be
an extreme to be crushing rights.
the egyptian from new york who showed up with a aircraft radio
the mafia who was taped without any introduction of hardware(and not getting to find out how).
The numerous "guest" that we are holding in our wonderful prisons
the patriot act.
We are losing our rights and liberties all in the name of security.
ohh, btw, i am a liberatarian.
Hey you *moron*. Last time I checked China was under a COMMUNIST government, not a FASCIST one. Get a clue.
Maybe because more of the country has a liberal bias than a conservative bias (as shown by Gore getting more votes).
You know its through constant vilgilance that our country is kept in check - saying America can do no wrong is blantantly ignorant.
I love this country - I love the fact that it says in writing that I am allowed say whatever I want. I don't like the fact that sometimes people think its politcally incorect to say certian things. Personally I think someone who speaks out more often about what is going wrong or right with this country is the most American of them all because he/she is excercising their right to free speech. And that right above all was actually paid for with peoples lives. Why die for something you don't think should be used or in your case should be used in such a way it doesn't offend conservatives and the bush family?
I know the editors will not read this comment, nor will anyone who read this care, but I hope that anyone who does read this post will maybe understand that sometimes you should take into consideration other people's ideas and thoughts and not just have a one track mind and think that whatever Slashdot rights is legitimacy
Btw - I'm sick of that line getting used to get extra mod points! Someone should do something about it! (end sarcasm mode)
It is easy to be liberal and compassionate, especially when compassion is being financed with other people money.
Statistically speaking, it is very unlikely that you pay as much in taxes as I do. Unlike so many, I did not conveniently convert to being a conservative Republican the minute that I got into the high tax brackets. I was not out there asking the government to cut my taxes, taking money away from the schools about which you feign such concern.
What's easy is being a conservative when it means that you get paid in the form of a tax cut. Unlike you, I didn't sell my vote to the highest bidder.
Want to stop grade inflation? Then fund the teachers and schools with taxes instead of whining about how you need a "tax break." Give them the resources to teach children. Don't have kids stacked up in mobile homes (AKA "temporary classrooms") just so that you can get a share of G.W. Bush's ill-conceived tax cut.
Of course there are countries when these whackos did get to run things and now these places are licking their wounds.
I suppose you prefer places run by conservatives -- like China, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, etc.
Yeah, BTW, check out the Political Compass
LP.org has a much shorter (10 questions) version of the quiz that has the same left/right and libertarian/totalitarian axes but uses a different scale.
Will I retire or break 10K?
Actually, the officer freely admitted he had been looking at porn on the navy laptop while off duty after learning he might might have to preside over the case of a subordinate charged with misuse of a military computer.
I am definitelly pissed off when I'm seeing idiots like the actual submitter claiming that COMMUNIST regimes are... fascist, so they don't have to expleain themselves why they still look tender to anything red, commie, socialist, social democracy and all the other undercovered COMMUNIST crap.
Catalin Braescu
Ofaly.com
Well it's about fscking time. Maybe they'll close down some of their open mail relays. Fully a third of my spam is bounced off some open Chinese server.
Must have been straight porn.
alot of people think security is everything. in my opinion if you're not willing to die for freedom, you're not worth a shit.
"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one." -Thomas Jefferson
Get over it. China can do whatever it wants.
If you don't like the rules, then either:
* get the f**k out of the country
* lead a revolution against the Mao Dynasty
* eat some flied lice
TANX
China is a far-left (communist) regime not far-right (fascist).
I hope you realize there is a difference between liberal and leftist, just as there is a difference between American conservatives and foreign reactionary governments.
Today's conservatives in America are classical liberals. Today's "liberals" are classical leftists, and there is nothing liberal about them...American's universities are a prime example of this.
geee you got +4 on this comment so i guess you are wrong.
But just because you have some conservative view does not mean that you have a special right to call yourself more american, and to claim that people that oppose your views are somehow "flaming the usa".
Privacy and freedom of speech are two of the most American cocnepts. Those that defend them are true patriots.
Being a good american is different than blindly obeying your government.
he right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
So what's the difference between our guarantee and theirs now that we have let "terrorism" be an excuse to search without warrant? You see, when you get outside the strict limitations of the fourth ammendment for any reason you are left with nothing but an empty prommise. With Carnivore and other wiretaping, I am NOT secure in my papers and personal effects. With the Patriot Act giving the govenment access to any electronic database, I am NOT secure in papers and personal effects. With the new wire tapping devices approved for use, I am NOT secure in my house.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
Firstly, if the parent is not offtopic, I do not know what is.
Second, you need also be careful not to confuse the different sects of the Conservative movement. There are Religious/Moral Conservatives, and then there are Fiscal Conservatives. One must not be both in order to find the "Conservative Movement" worthy of their support.
Neither is a Fiscal Conservative a Libertarian.
The difference between a free state and one that is oppresive is that the evil thing happened at all. There should not have had to be an outcry because the bad law should not have been passed to begin with. When laws become inconsistent, there has been a failure on the part of the government. The ultimate law of the United States is the constitution. When laws are passed that violate it, such as DMCA, Patriot Act, etc, without a constitutional ammendment, the rule of law has broken down. While we in the US believe that the consent of the governed is a primary building block of laws that are just, beware that unjust laws can be made and ignored by mobs as well ask kings.
So the first event created an outcry, will the second? Who is going to save you from jail and why should you suffer so to begin with? The law is still on the books. Those of us who recognize the inconsistency must continue to fight untill it is removed.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
Regardless of what is 'legal' and 'illegal' its not ok at all. What you are saying is that the end justifies the means ands thats not what my goverment is for. Just because the email is 'illegal' here but maybe not somewhere else or anything like that does NOT amke it ok to be spyed on.
No, you get it right.
China and other so-called communist countries (the Eastern Bloc, Marxist Africa, Vietnam, etc) are not true communism, as envisioned by Marx. They are state-capitalist countries economically, and facist politically. For a quick primer on what communism is supposed to look like, I suggest the works of Emma Goldman, although she would term it Anarchism. Basically China is going about its communism much the same way as its gone about liberating the suffering people of Tibet. And I hope you see the sarcasm in that statement.
PS: I don't believe in Communism personally, but I felt the need to correct your, ahem, facts.
Last night I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got in my pajamas I'll never know.
See http://www.dailyrotten.com/articles/archive/189387 .html
and the associated Register article (don't have URL available, sorry, and guys, fix your search engine, ok?)
But just what makes this any different from the attempts - like above- of our government to do the same thing?
A
*applause*
Lemmy, you countered that better than I could. But I'll comment anyway with IMO:
Anyone who has been watching what has been happening in the US over the last few decades knows we are moving closer every day to the same kind of political reality that the old Soviet Union had, and China has now. Talk about the old adage of political/ideological enemies becoming similar over time! (Sun Tzu? Don't remember - anyone help me out with that?)
I, for one, wonder if there will be anywhere to emigrate to on this planet when the US finally consolidates it's Empire. Individual freedom is being sacrificed on the altar of a myth called "The greater good" (as if anyone really knows what that means, or how to make it work politically) and on another lobbyist altar called "Corporate Profits".
For good discussions of the changes in the US, and whether we are an Empire, or a Republic, and where we are headed to, please visit Jerry Pournelle's site at http://www.jerrypournelle.com - and read back thru the current mail and current view archives(shameless plug, I've been reading JP's articles for two decades) and the discussions there go into greater detail then I could without writing for hours....
As Jerry and many others have said (going all the way back to the American Revolution) the price of freedom is eternal vigilance by a country's citizens. In that vein, although I don't agree with a lot of Slashdot comments I think this is a great forum for freedom.
Even Idiots can post; but that's what freedom of speech is all about.
AG
Bravo!! A most excellent rebuttal.
You totally decimated dj28's ridiculous drivel.
I bask in your eloquent glory.
Fair enough. But "liberal" is no more valid as a monolithic moniker than "conservative". Indeed, my point is this: the labels of "conservative" and "liberal" have outlived their usefulness, if in fact they ever had any. The fiscal and moral conservatives are linked primarily through, well, through the fact that people apply "conservative" to them. They are, at best, allies of convenience.
The Mongrel Dogs Who Teach
Liberal and conservative labels aside, the whole point to this is that anybody (anybody!) should have the freedom to say or post whatever they care to.
It's called freedom of speech. The founders of the US laws understood this. If what one says has merit, it'll be listened to by the people (hopefully rational and intelligent) who have the power to define law. If it does not have merit, it'll hopefully (!) be ignored.
In the US right now (Lawsuit Culture) any idiot can get someone, somewhere to support his/her views to the point where the rest of us are forced to alter our behaviour to conform to those views. This is not good law, nor justice - it's nothing more than shameless kowtowing to to any moron who who thinks they are right, whether or not they are rational or their views have any real logical merit, or any real loosening of the chains that prevent people from living the way they want to, without interference, as long as they don't interfere with other people's freedom to do the same. T. Jefferson understood this, as did most founders of the Constitution.
As an example: Bernard Shifman for president?
Anyone?
AG
Thus, when you get modded down (or up), the people (of the "state Slashdot" on this case) speaks their mind, much like they do when they vote on what a politician says, effectively getting him on or out of office (reducing/increasing his karma).
Of course right-wing dudes doesn't seem to care much for democracy, unless it is the one where the rich guys gets more or all votes (one way or the other, officially or behind the scenes). That includes lobbying and suchlike. So I am not surprised that you get modded down in a society that likes democracy, and I am not surprised you don't like the system.
As for flaming the US, well it is hardle the land of the free anymore, is it - if it ever was. In some ways it seems very "big brotherish" and not that democratic at all. Reminds me of the explanation I heard someone give an European on how the election of the president went: "You have these two right-wing politician, one wants the death penalty, and one is against. Now you vote."
As I don't live there myself, only speak to people who do, I am not one to judge. If what the media shows me is even mildly correct however, it is no country for me.
... the Mongolian hordes which the original wall was built to stop, didn't have rootkits and port scanners. :)
I'm an American businessman in the import-export business, so as you might guess, my frequent travels take me to many places around the world, on every continent.
Anyhow, I wanted to share my experience in the "great" country of China.
So, I was in Shenzhen China last December for about a week on business. A bit of background: Shenzhen, like Hong Kong and a few other places, is a "Special Economic Zone" that the Chinese government set up to try and give foreigners the illusion that China really ISN'T a drab, decaying fascist state that's economically languishing behind the rest of the world. Here, rules are relaxed and capitalism is encouraged, not surppressed. Well, let me tell you this, if this is China's best, then I'd hate to see the worst.
Anyways, when I stepped off the train from Hong Kong (which was no paradise itself, as that place has gone down the shitter since the Brits left) I was shocked. The whole place smelled like a combination of vomit and dog shit that had been left out in the sun for a day or so. And it was probably BECAUSE there was vomit and dog shit all over. I almost retched, and I've certainly been in some sketchy places in my travels but NOTHING like this.
People spit everywhere. Trash litters the streets. I found myself looking DOWNWARD much more than looking FORWARD when I walked.
Noise pollution is endemic. It doesn't help that their infernal language consists of abrupt rapid fire tones that is a cacophony for any human ear to bear. How do they speak and listen to that shit without going crazy all day long is beyond me.
Anyways, Chinamen stink -- literally. There is no concept of personal hygiene whatsoever. Meetings with even top officials were hourlong sessions of having to endure hot sweaty bodies and rancid breath eminating from mouths missing a few teeth. Geez, at least use deodorant for crying out loud.
The hypocrisy, corruption, and double-standards from the highest levels of government on over are the norm at the same time China opens up to the world. Foreigners get charged as much as five times for transportation, lodging, food, and everything else.
Traffic is horrible. Rules are non-existent except for at traffic lights: red means to go fast, green means to go REALLY REALLY fast.
The Chinese people themselve are pretty apathetic and everyone just wants to get out of that hell hole, so you see smuggling rings shipping people out hidden in truck beds and ships, all too often with tragic results.
The whole country, in my assessment is a lost case. Even the cheap labor can be found in Southeast Asia or Mexico. Same goes for pirated stuff -- SE Asia and Eastern Europe will keep on churning them out.
Anyways, the one redeeming quality were the girls. I paid 100 yuan (about $12 US) for a great fuck, with a 16 year old who seemed quite new and "unblemished" if you get my drift. Boy, was she tight, made all the right noises, sucked and fucked all night long and let me cum all over her. Much better than even the vaunted Thai whores, and worlds apart from anything in Las Vegas or in Europe. Best bargain I have EVER found in my life!
So yeah, screw the hell hole that's China. I'd say nuke the entire damn place and put that whole society out of its misery, and let another country rise up from the ashes, if I were in Bush's seat -- were it not for the girls.
...it should be noted that true Marxist Communism has never been accomplished. Communism is a philosiphy not a way to run a government.
On another note having recentally been to Slovenjia (formerly part of former Yugoslavia [only Serbia is left from the original kingdom of Serbs Croats and Slovenes]) it was interesting that only in the areas bordering Italy and Austria(and Ljubljana [the capitol]) where strongly against communism as all the people in the middle of the country didn't have to worry about spies and foriegn problems communism wasn't a big deal for them as no military forces where near them.
Deng Xiaoping first used the expression 'socialism with Chinese characteristics' in the mid-eighties and it remains the line that the current leadership adheres to.
A dream is good. A plan is better.
otherwise they would know the comparisions between China and America are ludicrous. Whilst I know most of the people here have a liberal bias, the comparison between China and America are ludicrous. However what seems to be happening in America is that it is beginning the *slide* to where China is at now. It is no-where near China. Well I haven't heard of America raiding people's houses and seizing family photos from relatives in the West and putting you on *trial* for that as a traitor, or taking university students, the intelligentsia so to speak, jailing them and then executing them by firing squad. Or dragging high school students out of school (because school is bad) and forcing them to work in the fields. Oh, oh and the best one, where they have courts where you can get accused of something and with the presumption "guilty until proven innocent" you get beaten until you confess except if you are innocent (which is usually the case) you don't know what they are accusing you of (since they don't tell you what the crime is) so you *can't* even make a false confession and since they'll beat you until you confess, well you can see...
The best one is when an elderly man committed suicide because he was afraid of being beaten to death by the communists (he had no gold and back in those times, you pay gold to stop being beaten to death), he hanged himself (a common occurrence, there were a suicide each week. If you are going to die, you might as well take the easy way out rather than being placed in a sack and beaten to death. Not to mention a few old people killed themselves because there wasn't enough food so if they died there would be more food for their grandkids) The next day there was the usual "assembly" to trumpet how great the government was etc. and the widow was forced to sit there and my grandmother who was sitting opposite her (and was a good friend) said that she was too afraid of getting into trouble to even cry. Not surprisingly a couple of days later she also hanged herself. There was also the way they used to stop people in the street and make you read a passage in Mandarin to check whether you knew the official language (otherwise of course you get hauled off) which was a problem because back then a lot of rural Cantonese people didn't know Mandarin...
Compared to what has happened in China in the last few decades, monitoring email is nothing. The democracy people will find ways to get around it just like they got around the Mandrain thing (they learnt that the officials always asked you to read the same passage so they just memorised that passage phonetically) And of course there are always good old fashioned bribery.
Still, I find it funny that people are saying, "At least China is upfront about it rather than hiding it like the US". Um, NOW they are. When they first started out, they hid all their actions under the guise of "patriotism" and "ideals". It may have been an unofficial secret that everyone knew. The US is at the very beginnings of the slide downwards.
"Too bad there isn't a party that takes the best of both worlds and puts it together..."
The Libertarian Party claims to be much of that, but in reality they are just another flavor of conservative republicans.
Fascism is an indeology enemical to communism, including China.
Fascism does allow too many freedoms and places hope in big corporations running the country.
I communist ideologu as per any communist big thinkers, nothing but state ownership of factories and farms is good enough.
Also, fascists believe in election and democracy.
In all books of Marx, Engels, and Lenin ruling party has to be forced to be the Communist one.
Communist and Fascist would only agree on question of religious persecution.
China abides on all above principles, relaxing only slighly state covnership of companies.
It indicates to me the opposite.
The "Great Firewall" only filters information between China and the outside world. It is powerless against domestic network use and easy to skirt for those capable of using foreign proxies.
The new regulations imply to me that the Chinese government is relatively powerless. They're trying to push the network to regulate itself at the local level. Instead of strengthening the capabilities of the center to regulate user behavior, they're decentralizing network administration. Exactly the opposite of the Echelon strategy, actually.
I think it's more interesting to see that we're getting this kind of policy out of the MII at all. Last I heard, the agency was set to be radically overhauled and Wu Jichuan's aggressive control policies were losing out. Does this indicate a return to strict control over user behavior, or does the obvious weaknesses of the policy suggest that the CPP *is* slowly liberalizing its policy on network use, and that this is a bone for the hardcore element of the MII?
And the way you wrote your post and the words you
used i truly belive you are a goverment worker. Or
a very rightwing facist. Though I doubt the latter
one, becouse rightwings usually dont have brains.
They need a Fuhrer, but, damn Bush is die Fuhrer!
On the one side, you have the communism of Marx, which exists only on paper. On the other side, you have communism as practiced in the real world by members of Communist Parties. I vote that the real one is real communism.
If you study Emma Goldman, you will find that she is a statist, not an anarchist. She revelled in the increase of the government's power over people. Aren't anarchists supposed to want less government?
China is an aggressive imperialist country. There is good reason to "snoop" their illegitimate leaders. If they pulled out of Tibet (went home) and stopped threatening neighboring nations such as Taiwan, there would be little reason to worry about their actions.
They've done pretty well? Not at all. They've killed millions by forcing people onto slave plantations. They have actually moved the country backwards compared to when Mao took it over.
There are plenty of right-wingers living in the US who would just as soon burn the Constitution
The much greater threat as always comes from the left-wingers. Look at the attempts to censor political speech: so called "campaign finance reform."
While I'd say your reply is true in general, we must not forget about how frequent the exceptions are becomming, ie.. washington d.c. to constantanople movement, waco, ruby ridge, and the number of scandals and hardship that money in politics has caused on our society. If 911 isn't an emergency call for campaign finance reform, then I don't know what would be one. Martin Luther King said it best, "If we live in a world that is an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, then we'll all be blind and toothless." As a christian I am completely disgusted witht the influence religion currently has on our political proccess, eg..the Jewish Lobbying Organization. Just as equally disgusting is having any other religious organization wielding influence.
It truely is just a piece of paper and in america you are free to believe whatever you want to believe, but if you try to question authority be prepared to be called a terrorist in need of early developmental intervention.--Freedom is being cut free from the cares of this world, ie.. being dead in flesh, but alive with Christ our attorney to the Judge, which just happens to be his father God who is the creator of us all.
For the benefit of the moronic submitter. And the seemgly large proportion of people out there who think it does.
Jesus. If you want an example of Fascism, look at the USA.
And before you get all high and mighty about how the USA isnt Fascist, think how US foreign policy gets exported, think how US cultural trends get exported.
I'm giving up my plans to move to China, as of this very minute. Thank you, Slashdot. Thank you.
all your email are belong to US*
*well, if the US stick more bugs in chinese gear [re:their airforce one]
in China. Just because it is legal in US does not mean it is right. There are nothing wrong for the Chinese government screening illegal activities on the net.
That's a lie. Encryption is legal in China.
Now, when you're hit with the flood of SPAM coming from an APNIC IP address, you can just respond to the system administrator of the open relay, like this:
"Greetings fellow Falun Gong brother. Your idea to encrypt message as commercial email is brilliant! I definitely agree that we need to move our geurilla forces into Tibet immediately, so that we may work against the tyranical Chinese regime."
Now *that* would likely get those open relays closed!
steve
Oh, you're not stuck, you're just unable to let go of the onion rings.
You know what, I'm really getting sick of the bigotry that I see here on Slashdot. Anytime a story is posted based on our rights, department of justice, business, etc... there always has to be a flame aimed towards the United States of America. I'm assuming most of the readers here have mostly a leftist view on most political issues, and that's absolutely fine.
/. share your opinions on things, it might reflect on us Slashdotters as a whole, but it's statistically more likely to just reflect on you personally. Either find a forum with people who agree with your opinions already or stop whining in this one.
/. is very democratic. Moderators are chosen at random from people that visit the site.
:)
But what about the conservatives who read Slashdot? What about us? How do the people who read Slashdot with a right winged attitude feel about biased comments that contain negativity, and to some of us, a fallacy (sp?) towards our government, economy, policies, etc...
Am I the only one who finds the irony in this post? The story is about how the Chinese government doesn't allow dissent and is telling ISPs to police emails for subversive statements. You then complain that Americans shouldn't dissent so much and should stop criticizing the American government so you don't get offended by people disagreeing with you. It would therefore seem that you would be in favor of the Great Firewall of China, right? I doubt you are, of course, but that's only because your thinking is confused and logically inconsistent.
Criticism of the country in general (as opposed to the government) is certainly different. Your post draws no distinction. I don't see why you think conservatives should be more offended by that than anyone else- unless you somehow think that conservatism and patriotism are the same thing.
As far as criticism of the government is concerned- democracy only works when citizens constantly criticize and question those in power. Perhaps you'd rather live in a country where there is no criticism of the government.
Comments as well (I'm posting this anonymously for a reason). Whenever I post a comment that will go against something I read in an article that will have a conservative view to it, maybe 75-80% of time time it will get modded down to -1 (52 posts, no flames, Karma 2, you do the math). Whatever happened to getting 2, 3, 4, everyone's side of the story?
Oh please. You sound like the people who write in to talkorigins.org complaining that the creationist side of the issue isn't getting equal treatment on the site. Nobody is obligated to rate your posts up merely so that both sides of every story are presented. Sometimes it's obvious which side is wrong. If fewer than half of the participants in a public forum like
The moderation system on slashdot is awful and wrong. Using an analogy of a hostile government. If I say anything remotely conservative, I will get modded down. Hmm... seems fair enough.
A "hostile government" is modding your posts down?!? I know you're just making a bad analogy, but seems like another case of politically correct whining. You couldn't ask for fairer treatment than you're getting.
What would you replace the current system with? One where YOU or "remotely conservative" minded people like you are the sole moderators? Your definition of "remotely conservative" might be reasonable, but it might very well fit my or other people's definition of "kookily conservative". How are we supposed to know? You posted as an AC so we can only guess.
As long as we're making questionable analogies between websites and governments, there are many online forums where the people in charge simply delete posts they don't like. Any dissent on those boards is quickly met by people saying creepy things like "soon you and your posts will go away, heh heh." Wouldn't that make a better analogy with a "hostile government"?
Sucks that you posted anonymously and lost all that karma. Bet you wish you weren't such an anonymous coward now, eh?
...is a pretty standard technique for intellectual lightweights trying to make themselves sound "enlightened" and "free thinking". It's right up there with instant disparagement of anything made or done by "Micro$oft", with praise for the nobility of any theft of intellectual property, with labeling anyone who objects to having his intellectual property stolen a "fascist", and so on.
The poster wasn't proposing a ban on all criticism of America, just objecting to the sophomoric Slashdot editorial practice of inserting a jab at the US when introducing any story about any other country so they'll appear "balanced".
And he got called a "fascist" in return. How predictable....
"Those who have never entered upon scientific pursuits know not a tithe of the poetry by which they are surrounded."
It seems like it would be an easy task for even a mediocre 'power-user' running Microsoft Windows to find/get/steal/download software that would allow them to bypass or encrypt their communications. There are so many subtle ways to send messages via TCP/IP that I don't think this is going to stop people who REALLY want to send anti-communist material via the Internet in/out of China. How many people in China even have access to the Internet, and use it? It seems to me the real concern the Chiniese goverment has is anon people posting anti-china comments on web sites. Eventually people are going to figure out how to get aroud this, if they haven't already.
There are too many people in the UK saying just that (some of them civil servants) to spy on all of them.
(it happened in Australia in the 70's)
That was a generation ago; thing are different now. The monarcy is too weak to try that again.
A democracy has a written constitution
Why?
In a democracy, law must be constitutional.
Why?
You could argue that america has currently reverted to a monarchy because the president is the son of a former president.
You could argue that its a dictatorship since Bush did not win the election and seized power with the help of his family.
TWW
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
Just look at that drooling crackhead monkey, G. W. Bush Jr.
So, you didn't join and therefore don't know what they do. "Why" is pretty obvious.
A democracy has a written constitution to ensure that the laws do not violate the rights of the people. Democratic law must be constitutional to be a legitimate law that preserves the freedom of the people.
You are making the mistake of assuming a written constitution can't be re-written. A strong government can re-write any part of a written constitution; America's string of amendments didn't just fall out of the sky, you know.
the son of a former president rigged the vote count in his brother's state
Well, the nearest I can get to the facts are that the son of a former president's brother-in-law fixed the electoral register (or whatever the Americans call it) so that a huge number of Black people in key areas were disbared from voting by a computer "error" which he refused to fix before the vote. The dubious vote counting was a second line of defense, as it were.
The key difference between a dictatorship and a monarchy is the fact that a monarch inherits the right to rule from his family, almost always his parents.
That's the key difference between a dictatorship and an absolute monarchy, the latter of which haven't existed in The West for 200 years.
TWW
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
Since it's just a filter (I.E. not a person reading everything), wouldn't it be just obvious to encrypt everything ? Or just purposely mis-spell text.. or just type it into a paint program and send the Jpeg of the text..
Keywork filtering is stupid.. just like the chinese government. Ha.
-Billco, Fnarg.com
You are making the mistake of assuming a written constitution can't be re-written. A strong government can re-write any part of a written constitution; America's string of amendments didn't just fall out of the sky, you know.
You are right. They didn't fall out of the sky. They were put in by the people who wrote the Constitution. They were also VOTED on by the states who put them there.
You show your ignorance when you try to point out that we didn't put these things there when we did. The gov't didn't just wake up and say that we needed a right to free speech. We also have strict rules when it comes to coming up with amendments.
Go back to palestine, a state that could have been if they didn't refuse to be. Your ignorance shows when you link to a site which says that Israel is the ones to blame when you didn't want to be a state at all. At least three times in history you had the chance to become a state, but you didn't want to because you would rather kill the Jews.
Stop your bullshitting, and learn the facts. In 1948 palestine could have been a state, but you turned it down. You are lucky you had that chance because before that the UK could have kicked you all out.
STFU, quit complaining on slashdot and get a life. I don't know where your are from, but they want their town idiot to come back.
We also have strict rules when it comes to coming up with amendments.
One word: prohibition.
Go back to palestine, a state that could have been if they didn't refuse to be. Your ignorance shows when you link to a site which says that Israel is the ones to blame when you didn't want to be a state at all. At least three times in history you had the chance to become a state, but you didn't want to because you would rather kill the Jews.
Who are you talking to? I've never even been to Palestine, nor have I linked to any sites in this thread!
You are lucky you had that chance because before that the UK could have kicked you all out.
I'm in the UK; have you been drinking?
TWW
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
This does not fit the definition of monarchy that you put forward earlier.
less than 200 years ago, Queen Victoria was the absolute monarch of the British Empire.
You clearly know nothing at all about the UK's internal politics. Victoria was never an absolute monarch. There have been no absolute monarchs in the UK since James I. Charles I tried it and discovered pretty quickly what the limits were - he was executed.
less than 100 years ago, the Tsar of Russia was the absolute monarch of the Russian Empire.
Well, if we count Russia as "The West" then I was wrong, but it's debatable.
Russia had an Empire, then a revolution which was replaced by democracy which is led by a a former KGB agent who started a war to become president.
Well, that's the sort of thing that happens in mob-rule, sorry, democracy: the best bullshiter gets in and can do what he, she, or it wants for a few years.
TWW
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
Quit whining and write more, better stuff... oh and if you're so simple to label yourself, left or right, liberal or conservative, you probably don't have the creativity to pen... I mean type a decent article! WORD!
China is communist in name only. It is a totalitarian, nationalist, slightly racist, hot to make a well regulated buck country. Simple as that. Those old cadres are just for show. Not a commi in the whole place! They have to freakin shell out the bucks for everything. No government help... no free education... toll roads everywhere... no more free housing... the cheap medical care is shit so you don't even get what you pay for... the land is bought and sold... taxes are barely even collected... only the farmers get the stiffy! WORD!
China is communist in name only. It is a totalitarian, nationalist, slightly racist, hot to make a well regulated buck country. Simple as that. Those old cadres are just for show. Not a commi in the whole place! They have to freakin shell out the bucks for everything. No government help... no free education... toll roads everywhere... no more free housing... the cheap medical care is shit so you don't even get what you pay for... the land is bought and sold... taxes are barely even collected... only the farmers get the stiffy! It's fascist... check the dictionary! WORD!
If it walks like a fascist but calls it's self a commi... then what is it? China is communist in name only. It is a totalitarian, nationalist, slightly racist, hot to make a well regulated buck country. Simple as that. Those old cadres are just for show. Not a commi in the whole place! They have to freakin shell out the bucks for everything. No government help... no free education... toll roads everywhere... no more free housing... the cheap medical care is shit so you don't even get what you pay for... the land is bought and sold... taxes are barely even collected... only the farmers get the stiffy! It's fascist... check the dictionary! WORD!
If it walks like a fascist but calls it's self a commi, what is it? China is communist in name only. It is a totalitarian, nationalist, slightly racist, hot to make a well regulated buck country. Simple as that. Those old cadres are just for show. Not a commi in the whole place! They have to freakin shell out the bucks for everything. No government help... no free education... toll roads everywhere... no more free housing... the cheap medical care is shit so you don't even get what you pay for... the land is bought and sold... taxes are barely even collected... only the farmers get the stiffy! It's fascist... check the dictionary! WORD!
Hmmm...
2 2b .html
http://www.virtualchina.com/archive/laws/lr0002
Compulsory registration of users
When a commercial encryption product is sold, the name, address and organization code (or individual identity card number) of the direct user of the product must be registered together with the purpose of each encryption product. The registration particulars will then be recorded with the state encryption administration authorities.
Use of state approved products
Units and individuals are only allowed to use commercial encryption products that have been approved by the state encryption administration authorities. They may not use encryption products they have researched and produced by themselves or that have been produced outside China.
No transfers allowed
Users of commercial encryption products may not transfer their commercial encryption products. Any malfunction of an encryption product must be repaired by a unit designated by the state encryption administration authorities. Any scrapping or destruction of encryption products must be reported to the state encryption administration authorities.
Foreigners are not allowed to use encryption at all, besides diplomats. Doesn't sound to me like opposition parties or underground movements are going to get licenses anytime soon.