Slashdot Mirror
Texas Rep Wants To Jail File Traders
kUnGf00m45t3r writes "There is an article on Wired about how Texas Rep. John Carter wants to jail some college students to scare people away from illegal file sharing. He says, "What these kids don't realize is that every time they pull up music and movies and make a copy, they are committing a felony under the United States code," Carter said in an interview. "If you were to prosecute someone and give them three years, I think this would act as a deterrent." Right..."
Am I the only one who finds this to be condescending? "These kids" is no better than "you people" - I'm sure most Americans will remember the "you people" scandal from the mid-90s.
Does this bill also contain credit for all the CD's I've legally purchased? I mean, say I have 100 legally purchased songs on CD, and I've pirated 99 songs on mp3, this still represents a net sale of 1 song by the record industry.
Using RIAA screwy logic, does this mean that I haven't actually cost them anything?
The 'felony' he speaks of comes from a law that is of a special kind: the kind of laws that we need to have, but are also meant never to be enforced.
The world is going to hell in a handbasket.
DROS - Open-Source Robot Software
Oh! What a great idea!
The more you steal the less you are punished.
marco
No war in my name.
If you drive drunk and kill someone, you get 2 years, if you share 500 mp3s you get 3. Sounds fair to me.
Fleur de Sel
Great 3 years in prison is plenty of time for them to learn how to be a real criminal. And since the felony will create problems getting a job when they get out, they will have the inclination to do illegal things for money so they can eat and pay rent.
There just isn't enough violent crime in the US anymore. Let's all thank the Texan for finding a way to correct that problem.
His priorities are all fucked up.
His priority is corporate payrolls, not the people.
Revolition time, overthrow the gov. that the people Remember, the gov is SUPPOST to represent the PEOPLE, lately they just represent the CORPORATION.
Overthrow it.
Filesharing is, in my opinion, much like speeding. A whole hell of a lot of people do it, and only a small percentage ever get caught or have to face the music, so to speak. When more than half of drivers are doing 70 in a 55, and only 1 in 5,000 are pulled over and given a ticket, there is no deterrent! Similarly, if you've got hundreds of thousands of students sharing files illegally, and you only punish "a few" of them, that's not going to discourage the rest of them.
The idea that "they won't bust me" is always going to be prevalent. Either we put them all in jail for committing these horrible felonies, or we don't bother busting any of them.
"BSD: Free as in speech. Linux: Free as in beer. Windows 10: Free as in herpes." --Man On Pink Corner in #52607549.
Give them the death penalty because, as we all know, piracy supports terrorism and therefore these kids are a kind of terrorists themselves!
I know a few folks who won't be voting for him next go around.The texas judicial system and law enforcement are riddled with corruption, drugs,etc. and this fag wants to put some kid away for downloading a few cheesy mp3's?I guess the citizens of texas are realizing now of where his head is at, it's up his ass.And we all know now what that brown film is on his lips.Sheesh, I even heard he's trying to make it a law here that requires you to get your lawnmower registered and inspected because it's a motor vehicle.
Fscking inbred retard.
Too bad we can't jail congressmen for stupid remarks. Then again, maybe it's for the best. The prisons are overcrowded enough as it is, and the last thing these people need are more free meals.
It's only funny until someone gets hurt. Then, it's hilarious.
This will never happen and even if it does it only deter a few file sharers. I think 3 years in jail is insane anyway you could get less for bottling someone. Anyway I'm I the only one who remembers that the RIAA don't control the court system and are not is not yet out leader.
To the RIAA until you overthrow this insane war mungering gov then you don't get your way
The real threat right now is spammers, not file traders. Is something that affects and in some way or another harm or could harm us all. Why not put them all in jails? or in pits, or use them as human shields on iraq, etc.
From the article:
"What these kids don't realize is that every time they pull up music and movies and make a copy, they are committing a felony under the United States code," Carter said in an interview. "If you were to prosecute someone and give them three years, I think this would act as a deterrent."
I know the american judicial and political system can be pretty screwed up at time, but just how much support does this guy think he's going to get from his constituents (read votes), when he starts sending kids to jail for three years in punishment for what amounts to fiften dollars worth of copyright violation?
To compare, how long do you expect Jeffrey Skilling (former Enron CEO) to spend in jail for the $30 billion lost there . . .
I would have no problem with this proposed law, if they offered something similar to music execs guilty of price fixing. So congress should make sure that both sides of this issue are playing fairly.
later,
"Im drowning here, and you're describing the water!"
Your words are so true. But what people have to think about is how things would work after the revolution. Communism failed badly, so that is definitly out. So, a new system must be created, one that hasn't been seen before.
Ric Campaign for the national sig: "*Just kidding, Admiral Poindexter!"
... and unlicensed software. Let's see if his children or spouse should be jailed. (Hey, 3 or more counts -- maybe for life!).
Something about glass houses.
Is here
This guy has the right idea. In order to stop law breaking, we must throw people in jail.
People often park in my street, which is a no-parking zone. What kind of society is it that lets people get away with so blatantly breaking the law? Throw some of them in jail for a few years, that would put the others off. And kids that drink under age. They need a good whipping. And don't get me started on people who "borrow" stationary from their employers...
Why don't we just secretly pick one area of each city to thoroughly police each day, and execute everyone who commits any crimes in that area? That'll really make people think twice before littering and speeding, won't it? Certainly this would lead to the perfect Utopia! Sheesh!
What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
students, the intellectual future and security of a nation, all turning up on his doorstep turning themselves in for 3 years jailtime. A great way to point out the stupidity of his words, and secure free accomodation until the end of your education.
Do you just jail the guy who traded 90,000 mp3's, or someone who did 2? Does the former get 90,000 felony counts? That seems ridiculous. Making it illegal will just make us all law-breakers, like prohibition did to alcohol, file sharing would immediately become a horrible plague on peaceful citizens.
stuff |
Here's my proposition to Carter on how to stop all piracy:
Make filesharing legal. Voilà, no more felonies !
Seriously though, if the fair use rights were enforced as much as the exclusivity of copy rights we wouldn't be there.
Can also be found here - why not drop him a line? :p
Music sharers are terrorists! They should be put immediately to the death row! Why fill up the jails?
</irony>
This demagogue ought to actually read the copyright Act before he starts making false accusations of criminal conduct against his fellow citizens. (He also better make sure his kids are clean.)
1) Even where infringement is present, it isn't necessarily criminal:
It isn't criminal unless willful, and it isn't willful merely because it was copied. Evidence of infringement doesn't suffice under the Copyright Act.
2) Even where willful infringement is present, it isn't necessarily criminal:
If not for commercial purposes or by taking a retail value exceeding $1,000 in a six-month period.
3) Even where willful infringement is criminal, it isn't necessarily a felony:
If not for commercial purposes, it is merely a midemeanor, in the sense that the maximum criminal sentence is limited to not more than a year. (Not sure if that is the relevant standard -- I'm not a criminal lawyer).
College students are easily swayed by this sort of thing, and imprisoning a few for longer than most rapists get will surely straighten them out. I mean, once they showed that they put you in jail for smoking marijuana, pretty much every college student in the U.S. stopped smoking pot. This will be just like that, right?
do not read this line twice.
mp3 is a lossy compression system, which means the mp3 you downloaded is not the same as the original, does this affect the way the law looks at them? Of course .wav files are supposed to be perfect digital copies.
that's just the way it is. get over it. take the test drive, it won't hurt a byte.
Wait lets not forget those middle schoolers. I know they download music too. But how to jail kids under 16. Disney Jails of course. With a special school in jail teaching all about the evils of downloaded music. I call it Disney Jail. Smaller cells for smaller minds. Jailers/teachers dressed in big eared mouse costumes. Special areas for kindergarden and preschool. Punish them while they're young. Better yet pre-crime... jail them before they do... cause you know they will.
While we're at it, it's illegal to lend books to friends. They might as well throw you in jail for that as well, just to be on the safe side.
lets give the pesky traders the chair!!!!!!!
That will teach those no good cheaten stealen rodents from trespaarrrsin on ma land!!!!!
Just like jail has proven useful in deterring the millions of cannabis smokers in the US.
The US has a higher proportion of its citizens in jail than any other country - in all of history. It now looks like it's trying hard to keep anyone else from approaching this record.
I remember while rejecting the case for breaking up MS, Dubya said we don't want to send the wrong messages to American Corporations. They mustn't feel endangered to carry on innovating in their own country.
What message does jailing students send to American citizens? The one I can hear is "Innovative students who offend Corporations will be jailed. Even if the 'guilty act' does not merit such severe action ".
If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....
"If you were to prosecute someone and give them three years, I think this would act as a deterrent. ... I'm not out to get the kids, I'm out to get their attention."
3 years worth of attention, no... no one's out to get anyone.
I'm sure this will help guide all those zit faced college kids by teaching them valuable new "real llife" skills in prison like "run from the shower posse" and "servitude for protection" in our friendly neighborhood prison system.
But seriously: while I can see and on somedays even care about the RIAA's plight, jailtime for downloading is clearly not the answer we need. How about court enforced licensing?
Set it up so if you do get cought downloading those evil unlicensed MP3's, you pay $1 per track proven to be downloaded to the RIAA and then a $20.00 court fee and it's a turnstile system ala traffic court.
This way the cities win, the RIAA get's it's $$ and the poor user who downloaded can walk away warm and fuzzy knowing they now legitmately have "rights to listen" to the MP3 they got popped for.
Laws to send people to jail for drinking on a fake ID work so well. I think we will finally see the end to P2P.
The right way to do it is to first make p2p music sharing unnecessary by providing a convenient way to download music legally, then enforce the laws that make it illegal.
The shareholder is always right.
So I'm supposed to be scared of this felony thing? But Ollie North is on Fox as a reporter in Kuwait. So crime pays?
Electric chair maybe ? oh come on, let's get real Mr Carter!!! next thing you will say is that it is illegal to sing a song in public, because it violates the (C)!!!
The fact is that this multimillion dollar corporations have an almost 100% profit after the production cost and the artist's fee is covered. It's like software.
The only people that should be punished are those that make a profit out of it, not some college kids who have fun by listening to music. If they did not share MP3s, they would not bought all those cds in the first place...just like video games.
I guess the multimillion dollar corporations are dreaming of another cow to milk. They can keep dreaming.
But if we jail people with files, won't they just cut through the bars and escape?
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
In the grand scheme of things, cleaning out corrupt politicians is a whole lot more important than cracking down in file trading by people with no money. I'm sure jailing people like Carter for a few years would have a wonderfully deterrent effect on other politicians. What about it?
Oh yeah jailtime that sure stopped my generation
from smoking pot, taking LSD, and hitchhiking to
Woodstock....LOL
Also by jailing the politicians we'd be giving
those in prison some real criminal mentors
with educations.....wow
Don't know if this has been mentioned before or even done, but what if people all boycot buying cds for a certain time ?
OK most downloaders already don't buy cds at all,
so I doubt if it's going to make a big difference..
But maybe we could make a certain day (or week) that no-one buys cds. And make a lot of media attention about it so the whole world knows it (and doesn't buy cds) and the record companies also feel it.
That way record companies will feel that consumers don't like what they're doing (up to now
record companies only see yearly income drop
and use their political influence to vote stupid laws, but there hasn't been a grouped reaction from the consumers side which had a large impact)
If enough people don't buy cds that day/week,
maybe they'll realise that if they try to push
it even more, more boycots will follow until
they don't sell any records at all anymore ?
Anyway these stupid laws just show how sick the
system is, it proves the world is ruled by money, political influence, and people in a democracy actually don't have anything to say at all..
Learn about pinball machines on www.flippers.be
I think this would act as a deterrent." Right...
Anyone who is suggesting that the threat of being jailed for file-sharing would not be a significant deterrent is so blinded by chauvinism as to have no credibility.
A rash of incarcerations will deter many people from distributing copyright-enforced works. I would hope that the remainder of the "intelligent" filesharers will begin to seriously look at alternative software that's not inhibited by messy licensing and what not. For the OSS world, this could be a blessing in disguise. Drive me right into "our" arms, eh?
:) )
I don't think a single musician or filmmaker would feel comfortable if someone did hard-time downloading an MP3, especially if it were a college-aged kid (a very influential market). Metallica excluded, of course. I know that my music will be distributed on the internet through KazAa and sharing to be actively encourage, I can only hope bands with actual talent will do the same.
What's the saying, the tighter you squeeze...?
I say let them bust some kids. I'll feel sorry for the kids, but the long term implications may be even more beneficial. (Frankly, I don't.. gimme a second I don't file share anymore..
If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
"A felony conviction is a terrible thing to have on your record," Carter said. Among other things, he said, a person would not be able to become an officer in the U.S. military if convicted of a felony.
OMG!!! You mean, I wont get to rape young girls in Bosnia, engage in illegal trafficking, be able to rub shoulders with terrible Afghanistan warlords and partake in their feasts, form an illegal nexus with the Defence Contractors, be a pawn to the politicians and shoot innocent civilians in broad daylight ?????
Please...please tell me that aint true..
Send all the people smart enough to get online and download mp3's to jail (college students none-the-less) then convert them into un-educated felons.
YAY US legal system!
Damn, things like this make me wonder if we should win this war.
THE WORLD IS GOING TO END!!!! eventually.
How about a system that doesn't have leaders? Could that work?
This Texas Rep seems to have forgotten WHO elected him, the parents of "these kids" and sending someone to jail for three years for swapping files (albeit copyrighted works) seems rather harsh, they'd probably have been better off to actually steal the CDs! (In terms of their sentence)
I don't think that a justice system should be used to "scare" someone - especially when a great number of people don't think that much of a crime has been committed. Basically people have taped each others' CDs and records for years, and music still gets made, Puffy Daddy still buys his plane, the sky doesn't fall in. The problem is we don't see "these kids" as criminals - okay they are, but not the kind of criminals who need to be jailed. We do see a lot of musicians as criminals though, they make vast fortunes from music that is likely to inflame racial tensions and advocate criminal acts - this Texas Rep should choose his friends more wisely if he hopes to be re-elected.
It also seems pretty hypocritical to add a levy on blank CD media and STILL go after individuals who are buying them. It seems that the music industry wants to be paid twice - once for original CDs and once for blank media.
Instead of blindly punishing (and rather harshly) file traders, I think it would be smarter to consider why people are trading files, and why this activity has blossomed the way it has.
To me, the problem seems to be that music and videos are way too expensive. Consumers are not milk cows and they are ready to pay a fair price. Hence this tremendeous reaction and copyright infringement that occurs today.
View it this way: if it costed you 50 cents to get a song you like in MP3, would you spend time on P2P networks to try to download it "for free"? I don't know how much you evaluate your time and the fun that goes with it, but I would rather pay.
Another aspect is the "sampling" ability. With P2P and file trading, one can listen to music and decide whether it's worth pursuing further with that artist or not.
It is a fact that copyright infringement is not legal. However, is it worth a prison sentence of 3 years? What do we ask from our representatives: that they put up repressive laws to satisfy the lobbies that finance them, or that they serve us and come up with creative way to "fix" our problems.
Today we, as end-users, have a problem with the price of on-line music and videos. We don't need laws to put us in prison.
Hey this jerk can kiss my conservative ass too...there are plenty of jerks on both sides. Maybe we should all send him our opinions... Texass
Just another day in Paradise
...Texas Tech, TCU, A&M, Rice, U of H, etc.....to vote him out of office.
Is he from Mars or something?
"What these kids don't realize is that every time they pull up music and movies and make a copy, they are committing a felony under the United States code," Carter said in an interview. "If you were to prosecute someone and give them three years, I think this would act as a deterrent."
Mmmmm, OK, except that it ain't just kids. A long while back, one of my BOSSed wandered into my office and asked me a question:
(He's also an XM subscriber.)
It was at that moment that I realized the RIAA is right: They are doomed. People (almost all people) simply do not consider downloading music to be breaking the law, not when they can hear music for free on the radio and Empty-V. As far as they are concerned, this is just radio without DJs, kickbacks and corporate-administered playlists.
"Lawyers are for sucks."
- Doug McKenzie
... sharing files will get you just as much time in jail as a drug dealer pushing his stuff?
"If you were to prosecute someone and give them three years, I think this would act as a deterrent."
No. This would be a plain terrorist act which would probably ruin their lives forever turning them into real criminals.
Yeah, you're right. BThe only good thing about this is that once Bush's out of office he can be jailed when he enters a country that supports the international court. Only problem is, after this war there's probably no country that wants to risk being bombed for abiding international law. (Which the lawful Texan doesn't) So, throwing people in jail for minor copyright issues is okay, but for killing a couple hundred/thousand people it isn't. But who cares about children in jail, especially since the US never ratified the UN convention of children's rights.
So, it's not letting the punishment fit the crime, it's trying to give people a high sentance to deter others over a non-violent minor crime that's also in a legal and ethical gray zone.
Brilliant. I'm constantly amazed at the ability of people to function with only an active brainstem.
I've known several victims of violent crime, crimes I'd have no problems sentencing the perps to life for, and the perps were never arrested. But thank GODS that we've now got someone to go after the File Sharers ruining society.
"The Sage treasures Unity and measures all things by it" - Lao Tzu
I think file sharing has gone the same way as Drugs (well at least pot), most (young) people do not see anything wrong with it and many quite happily do it. Yet is illegal. I am much of a philosopher but I would say if nobody supports a law then the law should be changed not the people?
the first rule of governing is not to make laws that cannot be effectively enforced without significant effort. There are examples of such foolery, prohibition comes to mind.
Enforcing copy right law is impossible without tremendous effort and cost. Problem is, the US government, and most other governments in the civilized world, are tripping down that road hand-in-hand with the copyright cartels.
I do not wish to have my tax dollars spent enforcing the copy right monopolies of others. When tax dollars are spent wrting and enforcing laws pertaining to copy right that is exactly what is happening.
Ya, jailing kids for coping music for personal usage ( we aren't even talking real piracy here, they aren't profiting ) makes a lot of sense.
Between that and restricting my ability to protect myself..
Morons.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Let's jail some Texas Reps for 3yrs for proposing stupid unfair laws, to deter other reps from doing the same?
Then everyone who has ever copied a record or taped something off the telly, should give themselves up, and insist on the same treatment. This is called passive resistence path to law reform. If enough people do it all at once (ie organised), it will completely overwhelm the system.
...
In the mean time wouldn't it be nice if the "no felony" rule applied to more than the military. And is it true that some people get a choice of the army or jail in the USA?
(Doing the rounds on email - no idea if it is true or not):
Can you imagine working for a company that has a
little more than 500 employees and has the following statistics:
* 29 have been accused of spousal abuse
* 7 have been arrested for fraud
* 19 have been accused of writing bad cheques
* 117 have directly or indirectly bankrupted at least 2 businesses
* 3 have done time for assault
* 71 cannot get a credit card due to bad credit
* 14 have been arrested on drug-related charges
* 8 have been arrested for shoplifting
* 21 are currently defendants in lawsuits
* 84 have been arrested for drunk driving in the last year
Can you guess which organization this is?
Give up yet?
It's the 535 members of the United States Congress. The same group of idiots that crank out hundreds of new laws each year designed to keep the rest of USA proletariat in line !!
to mod or to post? posting wins. me, me, mod me, me
-- it must be true, it's on the internet.
1) Even where infringement is present, it isn't necessarily criminal:
2) Even where willful infringement is present, it isn't necessarily criminal:
3) Even where willful infringement is criminal, it isn't necessarily a felony:
If you run any P2P program, you usually need to set up a share. There goes 1). Since sharing files for the purpose of getting other files is now considered being commercial, there goes 2). By the same hilarious logic, I'm sure they will consider sharing an (illegal) mp3 on kazaa will be "to access $325,323,264,746,435 billion kazillon dollars worth of pirated material". Calculated by multiplying the total number of mp3s and avis on kazaa by the CD and DVD retail price, respectively.
3 years for copying a CD? I'm so glad I'm not in America, even though I think we've went too far in the other direction here. Particularly violent crimes should be struck down on much harder...
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
The message they want to send is: we want to suck your cock so that you can keep raping the sheep of america, so that we can keep getting our 10% of your slave money.
I disagree. There is a simple answer: fix the laws that protect a corrupt industry at the expense of their customers. I wonder why legislators aren't asking the very simple question: "Why are millions of Americans willfully ignoring copyright laws?"
It would certainly be helpful if the rhetoric of the entertainment cartels (aka "piracy" and "intellectual property") were removed from the debate.
--K.
Sig: Bad people happen. Try to avoid being one of them.
Look at his contributions:
a sp ?CID=N00025095&cycle=2002
http://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/contrib.
He is obviously trying to keep the Assn of Trial Lawyers of America in business.
Johnkoerner.com
I agree with this guy's intentions: I mean, if you do the crime, you should do the time, regardless of what it is...but, perhaps the laws should be redone (most likely at the state level) so the first few offenses are misdemeanors, punishable with a fine and possibly a little jail time (in the court system, the possible jail time on misdemeanors is almost never exercised on first or seond tiem offenders). Sharing copyrighted files isn't worth ruining some kid's life over, but it is illegal and should be punished. If you make the fine comparable to a DUS and you enforce it, it'll get a number of folks to stop, I think.
Insightful: 76, Off-Topic: 379, Flamebait: 24, Funny: 152, Interesting: 201, Underrated: 55, Troll: 9, Total: 896
I think President Bush needs to work on his messaging skills.
Money for nothing, pix for free
It's the fucking insanity gripping the USA right now. Frankly as an Australian who has always supported America's "previous values" I'm having a hard time understaning just WTF is going on...
Steel
There are none as blind as those who will not see.. (unknown)
So they want to jail people for file trading/stealing a few hundred bucks worth of crap, but the corrupt CEO's of Enron (file trading/stealing peoples life's savings) and otherwise will likely do less time than the kiddies they make examples of.
Nice to see our perspective of domestic and international law are on par with each other in the insane asylum.
Didnt Texas just notice that their tried to give someone a needle in a case where the accused was found guilty with evidence from police paid witnesses and evidence was withheld? Yahoo Story
Like they need to find more ways of fucking people with their backwards justice. Perhaps they could figure out how to administer what they have first.
members are seeing something, your seeing an ad
So here's my question: Since when do politicians have any word in who gets arrested? I thought cops did that. People need to be quiet and do their jobs.
What most people dont realize is you have to be a US citizen for this to apply. And while im sure many of you think you are US citizens, if you were not born in DC, guam, virgin islands or one of the federal terretories then you are a national, not a citizen.
The way the law reads is tricky, but if you read it well enough there is a distinct difference between US citizen, US residen and a national of your state you were born in. Just because you live in the boundries of the "the many states" it doesnt mean you are under federal juristicion. I am working on a list of evidence of what i have put here, and it will be up in the next few weeks at http://taxliberator.net , my fathers site, who is a paralegal (who managed to get a bank account, car/home insurance, and really everything he needs w/out a SSN, he also from reading the law, when the IRS sent him a note that he owed them money, sent a nice letter back questioning their jurisdiction over him, they sent him a letter back saying yep, you are correct, no need to send any money)
We have seen that living things are too improbable and too beautifully "designed" to have come into existence by chance.
What I'd like to know is what the range of punishments are for shoplifting a CD. I imagine it wouldn't be all that much. It would make sense to scale punishments against P2P music-theft accordingly, based on number of CDs stolen. Simply offering "three years" is senseless, regardless of if you agree with punishing downloaders or not.
"Oh no... he found the
To me, this sounds very much like selective enforcing of the law. It's very easy to hide discrimination in such a system, if the only ones getting cracked down on are left-wing / right-wing / minority ethnic group / anti-war / whatever. Or students of a university critical to the US government.
Making everyone a criminal, so that the government can "take down" those they feel like is quite bad by any standard. Copyright holders can do that when they pick their targets to pursue, but once the police is making their own investigation, they really should do their best to provide equality for the law, not arbitrarily, or worse yet, intentionally pick scapegoats.
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
It would deter me from ever voting for him again!
"Sometimes it takes the shock value of someone actually being punished," Carter said. "In this particular instance it might also send a message to these kids that are operating on these networks that, 'Hey, I better stop.'"
Boycotts are a good idea but imagine the shock value of millions of students registering to vote in order to "send a message" back to Congressman Carter. Fighting corruption while simultaneously keeping your butt out of jail would be cool too.
Instead of making licenes plates or clothing, you would have 10's of thousands of rebelious and modrately computer savvy youth who would have 3 years on their hands to bent into shape as software developers. for what the system pays current inmates for their labor, we could keep more business in the US instead of shipping it off overseas! imagine that. instead of spending 4 or five years in college with all its requisite distractions, 3 years hard coding to avoid 'special time' in the gen pop in CB4. It's not like everybody can get a job right now. d/l a tune, get busted, get shelter, food, a place to work and the experience!
-uG
Well going over the speed limit of say 100 km/h is not legal, yet everyone here in Canada goes about 120 - 130 on the 401. The OOP (police) give out tickets left and right, but hey, people still speed. So jailing a few people over file sharing well in no way stop the file trading.
Also on the point made earlier in the forms that RIAA believes if I download 100 songs, they have lost 100 sales. Most companies would see it this way, but there is one flaw in this logic. If I had to buy the CD's, then I would probably buy only 1 or 2 CD's with the songs I relay enjoy. Not 100 to have 100 different songs that are nice, but nothing I would be to excited over to pay the record industries outrages CD costs. Also I still Buy CD's so RIAA is not losing cash on me.
Maybe next he'll say to throw every one in jail who taped the last superbowl.
or
Maybe he'll propose that restaurant owners be jailed for not paying performance royalties of music they play in their establishments.
or Maybe even jail everyone who listened to the music while dining in the restaurant should be jailed for participating in such illegal activitiy.
uggggggggggg...what a moron
the guy doesn't even have a link to his email on his webpage.
http://www.house.gov/carter/
Should a representative who doesn't provide such a basic use of the internet to his voters be mandating it?
When are you Americans gonna dig a moat around that state? It would make everybodies lives so much simpler.
It was. Until the "No Electronic Theft Act" appeared, which altered the definition of "commercial" to cover file trading as well. So, if you're running Kazaa, WinMX or whatever except with an empty or disabled share at all times, that's (2) and (3) from the parent post covered. As for (1), are you going to claim you accidentally installed that file trading software? If not, NETA would seem to put you into the "felony" bracket as soon as you've traded a couple of dozen albums - or one copy of Win XP, it seems!
Run a P2P app deliberately, trade $1k worth (at retail prices) of material, and it's a misdemeanour (1 year, $100k fine). 10 or more copies, retailing for $2.5k, and it's a felony (3 years, $250k fine). Ouch!
Remember who votes for you the next time you make such a dumb statement.
Register to vote. Today.
Call Carter if you want, not that it'll do much good; he got 78% of the vote in his last election in a district that votes even more Republican than the rest of the state, if such a thing is possible.
But maybe you can throw a scare into some of his colleagues.
The antidote is massive voter registration. These guys are counting on college students to not vote; are you going to fulfill their expectations?
It really bothers me that the RIAA et al compares digital media piracy to be the very same as walking into a store and shoplifting a CD. Conceptually--alright, I see their point that theft is theft. But, let's compare apples to apples here.
Swapping a song is more akin to going to your library and copying an article out of an encyclopedia. I mean, the library paid for that encyclopedia, but Britannica certainly isn't getting any type of royalty or extra revenue for your actions. And, this behavior is actually accepted (otherwise, why did my college library have eight copy machines on each floor?).
The fact is, and this has been stated over and over again, that the recording industry is using a business model that is quickly becoming antiquated because it has not adapted to changes in digital media capabilities (i.e., instant gratification: easier and cheaper to download a single track from the Internet than to drive to the music store).
Furthermore, what is the motivation or desireable quality of owning a physical CD at the cost of $15? For the eight garbage tracks that you get in addition to the 1 or 2 good songs? For the really cool cover artwork? For the satisfaction that your $15 contributed to the squandering lifestyle of the artist, or even worse, the recording label?
Perhaps my views are seeded in jealousy. There, I said it. Because I have no marketable talent, I'm forced to work 40+ hours a week and live entirely on that paycheck. Recording stars might put in long hours at the studio (boo hoo--we all put in long hours to meet our deadlines probably more frequently than they record an album), but in my eyes, they aren't truly working unless they're touring. And, just because they can sing or otherwise attract public appeal, they have the opportunity to afford all kinds of luxuries PLUS have big companies give them all kinds of products for free in hopes of some sort of endorsement. I wonder what that would be like....
Call it theft or whatever, but I think that the everyday 40+ hour a week employee has voiced its opposition to the practices of the recording industry that takes money away from the working class to support the lifestyle of the artists.
Ok, Got your attention on that one :-)
Now exactly is this moron Rep from texas expecting this to work? the tactics they use against obviousally and morally sick crime called child porn doesn't do a damned thing. And now this blathering Idiot from texas wants to focus on something that is a percieved problem and waste resources on that instead of the real problems?
This man just gave his competition some really good ammunition for the next campain..
Rep. John Carter doesn't care about your children, in fact he wants them in Jail. Rep. John Carter cares more about big business than children, as he would rather waste resources on chasing college students and kids than stopping child porongraphy or other truely illegal activities.
Rep. John Carter, who is he working for?
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
I can't wait for this to become reality! Soon they'll jail everyone who pirates music, and lump them in with all those software traders too. Good thing we taught poor students a lesson about trying to get free versions of $500 pieces of software. Those cassette recording punks are rotting in there somewhere too! Good thing that evil Satanic practice was stopped before everyone starting doing it!
Even if they start randomly jailing 0.1% of all offenders you have to make room for tens of thousands of "criminals" in your already overcrowded jails, and the net result is that 99.9% of people will get away with it, scot-free.
I think they SHOULD enforce it, and make the record companies pay for the prosecution and the new jails that will be needed to house millions of young adults. Sure, schools will be pretty empty for a while and they might cause long-term economic damage, but at least kids will no longer be sharing files and can get back to smoking weed and drinking & driving!
Go Texas! Can't trade files but you can pistol-whip that black piece of shit who offered to wash the windows of your truck.
What is going on at the moment is that a technological revolution is making current law inappropriate.
I am basically convinced that payment for media based services has to be separated from the distribution. Let the distribution happen by itself, P2P, Usenet, whatever - and develop a brand new mechanism - probably based on an "honour system" - for payment of content that you have obtained.
I can't imagine how I would actually feel if I heard that some college student was banged up for any time at all "just as an example".
Whoever has proposed this should be absolutely ashamed of themselves.
"In the eyes of some members of Congress, it would have a way of turning thousands of criminals into good citizens overnight," he said.
well, sure...because we all know that the college-educated part of society is really our biggest source of crime in the US.
Why are they not breaking their pretty little heads over the real problems in society (unemployment, public education, social security, underinsurance or no insurance) and pouring money into that?
And since when is deterrence working? Carter seems to think that we should handle this issue just like any crime: (in thick texas drawl) "well folks, its our duty to protect and reform society"--and lets also execute (wahoo deathrow) rediculous numbers of criminals....
"I'm not out to get the kids, I'm out to get their attention."
and further, I feel quite offended just being called a kid. College Students are not children, we don't need this kind of treatment...especially not if we are supposedly being prepared to become full productive members of society (and then again, many of us already are!) If your going to punish, then please not for the sake of us "kids". please, no discrimination for deterrence sake.
in the 60s and early 70s and we all know how well that worked - the illegal drug trade was virtually eradicated during that period. *End Sarcasm*
Jailing users was not an effective deterrent.
However, I don't think this goes far enough. I have a more Texan solution for the rep. to adopt.
Kill them all.
Yes, it's well known that most crimes are committed by young men aged 16-30. Kill the lot of them. It'll stop most of the hacking, most of the file sharing, get rid of most of the drug addicts. It will get rid of most of the cheap foreign labor so senior US programmers will have jobs again. It will reduce US carbon dioxide output significantly so Bush can take credit for reducing global warming. It will reduce underage pregnancies. It will remove most of the opposition to the religious Right. It will greatly reduce drunk driving.
OK, the downside is that CD sales will fall catastrophically. But in these difficult times, we must all make sacrifices. Even the RIAA. And we could have a stonking great memorial in DC, to all the young men who gave their lives in the war against (file-sharing) terror.
Next off: Why they should bring in the death penalty for double parking.
Stupid? Not as stupid as "let's give a few people a major criminal record for a minor offence to discourage the others." Texas and Saudi: the similarities run deep.
Panurge has posted for the last time. Thanks for the positive moderations.
According to his web site, http://www.house.gov/carter/ , he has offices in Round Rock and College Station. Anyone know when he's up for election? I think a few posters on Campus with some quotes about his "idea" will get him swiftly kicked out... provided the college populous goes and votes.
Hell, anyone want to recall him? I'm sure there are a few TU students in Round Rock who'd be happy to help...
"Sometimes a woman is a kind of religion, she can save your soul & set you free from all your sins" - Bad Examples
How about an offense that can actually land you jail time? Like, say, marijuana possession? Boy, that whole 'throw kids away for two years for possessing an ounce' thing, that sure keeps kids off the doobie, don't it?
Libertarians somehow believe that private businesses should be stronger than governments but weaker than individuals.
No - it's because we don't refuse to elect people who turn out to be criminal by inclination. Draconian, excessive punishments for violation of laws that protect the cash cows of a few are a very effective way of convincing regular people that the laws are stupid and unjust and should be violated. This is a recipe for creating contempt for laws in general, and then we lose something that's awfully good to have: a belief by the general public that the government is really by and for the people. There's a lot of historical evidence to the contrary, but it's still a principle worth striving for.
Think, write, think, edit, think...then post.
"wants to jail some college students"
I'm no longer a college student.
Sdelat' Ameriku velikoy Snova!
While I agree that the congressman's comments seem to reflect poor judgement in terms of how to phase in punishment, is it not appropriate to begin enforcing the law against those who break it? When ideas like the DMCA or SSSCA (CBDTPA) are proposed I am offended because they punish me for things that I do not do. Isn't enforcing the existing law exactly the right approach?
As a counter-proposal how about this:
Step 1:
For six months, send letters to violators stating that the executive branch will begin enforcing the law.
Step 2:
For six months, enforce the law lightly. Give a few kids a week a summons and (if found guilty of willful infringement) probation.
Step 3:
Gradually increase the punishment to the natural level for the law in question. Start adding public service and small fines, and gradually ramp up.
This is much the way that traffic law enforcement devices with cameras are phased in, and as a person living in a city with red-light enforcement traffic cameras, I have seen it work.
Stop-Prism.org: Opt Out of Surveillance
Send people to jail for three years for downloading songs? Fine. Get 12 of their peers to unaniomously convict them.
Democracy Now! - your daily, uncensored, corporate-free
I googled his name, and found out he's a Republican. (I had expected him to be a Democrat, don't know why.)
Just thought that was a fact that people should know.
It makes me quite cynical that a 'hacker' who does little more than break into a system with no malicous intent or some kid coping mp3's is portrayed as being the scum of the earth, all while there is multi-million dollar white color fraud going on quite regularly and the the white collor fraudster will get a slap on the wrist while people like mitchnik gets made an example of by the courts.
Not all conservatives are stupid,
but it is true that most stupid people are conservative.
- Hume
Carter, now in his first term in the House, served as a state district judge for 20 years in Williamson County, known as the Lone Star State's toughest county for criminals. If rampant file sharing was going on back home, he said, people would likely be prosecuted.
:)
;)
Funny, I seem to be recall some irl mates, whom are some of the biggest p2p and dcc leeches Round Rock Texas has to offer.
Actually, those some students I know at Texas A & M College Station are the absurdly abusive with their resnet regarding traffic bottlenecks. Thanks #!!!!p0rn2goDCC on DALnet.
90% of the comments here seem to be missing the point. i think the main idea here is to punish people for what is essentially theft. oh yeah, spout your riaa crap about how they are evil blah blah blah. thats not the point. fact is you are still stealing regardless of how you feel about you are stealing from.
my personal opinion of the matter is that everyone is upset with this idea because they are teh targets now. not everyone. but most.
Seriously, this guy apparently forgot two of the kost fundamental rules of justice: the penalty must be in proportion to the fault and justice must be equal for all. While in theory jailing someone "to make an exemple" might work for some time, it is making justice by exception AND abusive penalty.
For the above reason, my thought is that this guy is only after the publicity as such a proposal wouldn't go through a real court.
If this legislative loon manages to push something like that through, aimed specifically at students, I believe it would not only be questionable from a constitutional PoV (class discrimination, no pun intended), but that it would also have the direct opposite of the desired effect. It would probably spark widespread civil disobedience on a scale not seen since the last draft-card burning.
I have to wonder if the guy's an RIAA/MPAA shill. I also have to wonder if the entertainment industry, as it stands today, is ever going to realize that they need to either change their business model or be metaphorically swept away.
Bruce Lane, KC7GR,
Blue Feather Technologies
Either he doesn't know his own kids do it too, or he doesn't have them. Or he actually pays the huge prices for the CD's for his kids...
Because jailing someone for three years would cause several times the damage to that person's future as that person's file trading did to any concerned interests, if this happens, we should also jail Rep. John Carter for 30 years.
It might make people wake up to how ridiculous the copyright laws if a couple of people got prosecuted and put into jail like this.
has GOT to be from Mars, cause he damn sure isn't from this planet with an idea like that.
"Innovative students who offend Corporations will be jailed. Even if the 'guilty act' does not merit such severe action ".
Remind me again what is "innovative" about using someone elses software to rip off someone elses music? Sure, the original author if the software was innovative (before everyone else jumped on the P2P bandwagon anyway) and the author of the music is innovative (more or less), but that's not who they're going after.
It is particularly sickening to see this sort of stuff on Slashdot. People who insist that their favorite license is respected won't even do other people the courtesy of respecting their licenses.
He'd probably really like to shoot 'em. Smoke'em out, then shoot'em.
of the Dixie Chicks now has another Texan to be embarrassed about. We're starting to make Arkansas look good.
Actually, the defendant never argued against those charges. In fact, it was made very clear by his attorney that his client had the drugs in his possesion, where he bought them, and how he intended to use them. There were actually three charges we were asked to consider, only one of which was argued by the defense (successfully I might add).
If I've purchased CDs and make them available on a P2P network for the purpose of accessing them anywhere I please am I a pirate? If I've purchased a CD and then downloaded the files to my work PC from a P2P network am I also a pirate? If I download music in order to preview artists (which I regularly do) am I a pirate? Although this area is much murkier I still don't consider this pirating music since the music I listen to is never played on the radio.
Rep. Carter hopes that prosecuting individuals will cut down on pircay by 50%. If you really want to cut down on piracy give us a reasonably priced product that works better then the P2P networks.
P2P news from a consumers perspective
Excellent idea. The best place to start would be with the senators and representatives themselves.
Felons become persona no grata in the US.
A convicted felon cannot vote. A convicted felon cannot own firearms. A convicted felon cannot own real property (read that, land and housing).
This Texan is looking at wiping out a hell of a lot of rights for an industry that admits that they cook their own numbers, at least partially, from speculation. He is actually going to reduce the number of legal voters if this goes through!
-------------------------
As easy as herding cats!
the death penalty (although that only applies to minorities and immigrants, not young white males).
What these kids don't realize is that every time they pull up music and movies and make a copy, they are committing a felony under the United States code
Rubbish. Absolute rubbish. If I walk into an electronics store, snatch a DVD or CD or whatever, stuff it under my shirt, and walk out... I've just committed a misdemeanor, petty larceny.
Doing the equivalent electronically should carry no stiffer penalty.
I am disrespectful to dirt! Can you see that I am serious?!
Lots of posters have commented on jailing someone for a $15 offense. I think you'll find that the people they would go after have gigabytes of songs available for download and have transmitted tens (or even hundreds) of thousands of dollars worth of songs to other users.
You also have to understand his district to know why this won't keep him from getting re-elected. It is a newly created district that spans the most conservative part of a very conservative state, tracing a long narrow band from Round Rock in Williamson county north of Austin southeast to College Station.
A Williamson county jury recently made the news for sending a drunk driver up the river for 40 years. He hadn't caused an accident or hurt anyone, he was just out driving drunk for the fifth time. The previous four offenses were in another county where he got nothing but fines. We throw the book at people in Williamson county.
Trust me, this will go over well with most of his constituents.
Yeah, that would discourage me.
--
RumorsDaily
Well... Better start using GNUnet as soon as they release a stable version(Shouldn't take too long).
MPAA and RIAA won't live such an easy life as they do today....!
Even foreign leaders that are known to kill _their own people_ by gassing them?
Foreign leaders that were unanimously told to disarm by the entire world, and didn't?
I think it's hardly because "you really don't like" him.
You ignorant dumbass.
It's an anti-bush whine covered by a thin disguise of being related to the topic.
The guy who's pushing for this is John Carter, NOT the president.
Geez. Some republican congressman is pushing for sending college kids to jail, and you automatically assume it's the president's fault.
This sort of thing makes liberals look like hypocrites. Theoretically, liberals are supposed to be open-minded and intelligent. I guess it's only true for those subjects that the liberal agrees with.
I'm from TX and am sure Mr. Carters Constituants would be interested in the opposing party if this was to occur.
<sarcasm>
Deterrence is VERY effective. Everyone knows since America instituted capital punishment there have been NO murders in this country.
</sarcasm>
-ted
check out what Wired's readers thought about the article in their Rants and Raves http://www.wired.com/news/rants/0,2350,58121,00.ht ml
The RIAA didn't give him any money this year, must be trolling for next election season.
a sp ?CID=N00025095&cycle=2002
http://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/contrib.
Jaysyn
There is a war going on for your mind.
Can we have this entire thread marked off-topic?
No, but that's what all the two-bit dictators out there are going to believe. There has always been an unspoken rule in international relations - you don't make it personal. The risks of it backfiring have always been to great. Sure, it's been done in circumspect ways (Salvador Allende, anyone?) but never openly like this. Both the pre-emptive strike in itself and the targeting of Saddam personally sets dangerous precedents.
It would have been better to claim they were going after Saddam to bring him to justice for the war crimes he has committed instead of going through the disarmament charade.
Money for nothing, pix for free
During a recent hearing of the Subcommittee on Courts, the Internet and Intellectual Property, the Republican congressman said jailing college students who download copyrighted music would help stop piracy.
Aye, it's those rowdy hooligans! Leave us be, matey. Aarrrr..
-Long John
(Score: -1, Stupid)
John Carter should just go back to Mars.
Or a home PC (I'm sure)?
If so, I've got $500 for the first person that gets (or simply finds) copyrighted material on his or his childerens PC's.
Jaysyn
There is a war going on for your mind.
that this probably has children, if not grandchildren who are students. Do you think his grandchildren download music over P2P? Let's see him throw his own grandchildren in the slammer for 3 years. This is possibly the dumbest bill I've ever heard of.
"Did Carter's grandson drop the soap? Oh... that's too bad..."
.. especially when there's about 20 more students in jail with his grandchildren...let's do it up!
How many constituents of his called, wrote, emailed(they use computers in Texas, right?) him and requested harsher penalties for file traders?
Just a guess. None. Why? Because, as most people who can read polls *not* put out by the RIAA/MPAA know, filesharing is not morally wrong to most Americans. Illegal sure. Wrong no.
If laws do not represent the morals of the people then they are unjust laws. Much like your drunk driver example. Who wants drunk drivers out running around? Not many. The law is just. Oversimplified sure, but that's the jist of it.
What this announcement amounts to in my eyes is political grandstanding, a notice to the entertainment industry that he is 'open for business', so to speak.
I'll be checking opensecrets.org and won't be very suprised when some Hollywood money comes his way.
You voted for John Carter. Good for you. John Carter doesn't represent you anymore. He represents 'other interests' now, like staying in power and getting campaign contributions.
Could you please keep Texas politicians away from the rest of us? They are getting the country dirty.
This seems very logically
When are they disarming Israel? Cuba?
Have you seen how people in the Emirates live?
Yet of all those countries, Bush chooses Iraq to wage his crusade at.
I'm wondering either what he knows that we don't, or what he stands to gain that we don't.
there are 3 different numbers here: http://www.house.gov/carter/
You mean crackers. A hacker would never break into someone else's computer.
-uso.
Proud hacker!
Dreams, dreams, don't doubt dreams, dreaming children's dreaming dreams. Sailor Moon SS
But I don't fear you. I simply aim to take you and your ilk down, one way or the other. I don't live in Texas, but I intend to do my small part to make sure this story gets blown UTTERLY out of proportion, until this guy is explaining himself and his Nazi-esque rationale every time he gets in front of a microphone.
Now that I've got your attention, allow me to tell you my personal experience with student involvement in politics, or rather the shameful lack thereof, even when their own intersts are directly and immediately involved.
... for the first month or so of that semester it really did feel like eastern Germany ... you were being watched all the time, and weren't safe from intrusion even in your own home. Have a few friends over, and you were at risk. It was appalling, and while there are many greater injustices in the world, it was nevertheless a real injustice taking place against young people in America, and to those of us believing we lived in a free society, quite shocking.
According to his web site, http://www.house.gov/carter/ , he has offices in Round Rock and College Station. Anyone know when he's up for election? I think a few posters on Campus with some quotes about his "idea" will get him swiftly kicked out... provided the college populous goes and votes.
Before attending the University of Illinois, I had the dubious experience of attending a smaller, less well known university in a small, backward, and very reactionary midwestern town: to wit: Illinois State University in Normal (I kid you not), Illinois.
The entire social life of that campus took place through student parties, of various sizes ranging from a few people gathered in a dorm room to hundreds gathered around a keg in an apartment complex parking lot. On the summer between my freshman and sophomore years the town passed an ordinance banning all student parties without a city permit, be they small, in-home affairs or large outdoor bashes.
Every party I attended got broken up, with an increasing sense of anger on the part of the students (lots of people no longer getting laid can do that). Undercover cops were routinely sent into people's homes, to bust up private parties as they got underway and arrest the hosts. It was as draconian as anything I'd seen in my travels at that time
Worse still, the town had hired a chief of police who enjoyed rubbing student's faces in the fact, making loud public appearances, sending his police around campus in force, and even going so far as to pose for newpaper photographs in "Fun Buster" tee-shirts.
To make a long story short, the first protest the campus had probably had since the 1960's took place (this was 1984, an appropriate year), which began peacefully enough but erupted into a 6 hour melee when an angry driver threatened to kill several students with a tire iron if they didn't get out of his way (he wanted to drive through the intersection the protest was blocking), all of this in the presence of Chief of Police Lehr (spelling?). I was a personal eye-witness to this event, and even took a couple of photographs of the driver in question.
Lehr's response was even more appalling. When asked why he hadn't arrested the driver he responded that the driver "was only defending himself." Like a stone droped in water, you could feel the effect ripple through the crowd. I got away from the chief of police as fast as I could, as full beer cans, rocks, and other missles started falling.
I did not take part in any of the violence which followed, but I did see much of it. The rage was quite real, the emotions quite high, and the students quite justified in many of their complaints.
Yet, and here is the kicker, the following spring the city held elections for city council. Several pro-student candidates were running. The total student population was about equal to that of the town, and under Illinois residency laws, any student who'd been there for 6 months (i.e. everyone who had been enrolled in the fall semester) were eligable to vote as residents.
Voter registration drives set up booths in the dorms and apartment complexes. The story was in the local news and plastered all over the student newspaper. Posters everywhere, and so on.
The turnout was appallingly low. Of the 25,000
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
...As the drug laws are at deterring drug use.
Then again, this guy is from Texas. At least he's not trying to execute file traders...
Follow the adventures of the new wandering jews
gaaahhhh.....must....resist.....
RIDICULOUS. R I D I C U L O U S.
derived from: RIDICULE, not "redicule". There is no such word as "redicule".
LOSE interest. L O S E.
To "loose interest" means to spread interest around, and that isn't what you are trying to say, is it? No, you meant that you had interest once, but it is now gone. That, my friend, is spelled LOSE.
The existence of a concept of "illegal file sharing" makes me realize that in the US, the only freedom we still have may be the freedom to spend money. (We probably have some others, but you know what I mean.) I presume we've all read The Right to Read.
Can we send in an anonymous tip to the BSA that he may have unlicensed software on his computers? I mean, he _might_. Nobody will know 'til he's bee audited by the BSA, right? If he's all legal, he has nothing to fear.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
People complain when there is unfair sentencing between races on drug convictions, or different penalties for very similar crimes.
If you have stolen the equivalent of a few thousand dollars worth of anything, it's grand theft. Grand theft is a felony.
Getting indignant when folks try to stop theft is just a way to justify that you are wrong.
There may be times in life when you might need to steal food. Food to keep yourself or your loved ones alive. Same goes for medicine, or to take shelter in a house that you have no permission to use in a blizzard. But to steal music?? Music is not a recognized neccessity of life. It's a luxury to have the latest music, not a need. Therefore, stealing music is like stealing designer clothing, or high priced hair care products.
You know stealing is wrong. Just stop trying to make excuses for it such as "it's not stealing, it's copying."
If someone is selling something, and you take it without their permission for your own use, and deny them the ability to sell it, then you have stolen it.
3 years is a long time. Stop stealing.
Lets look at some of them:
John Sankus:
11/15/02 #17 For the reasons stated in open court, ORDER as to John Sankus Jr. granting [14-1] motion by USA as to John Sankus, Jr. for Reduction of Sentence under the provisions of Rule 35(B). ORDERED that the term of imprisonment imposed in the Judgment and Commitment Order of May 17, 2002, be and is reduced to a total sentence of 18 months. (Signed by Judge Leonie M. Brinkema ) Copies Mailed: 11/15/02 (rtra) [Entry date 11/18/02]
Chris Tresco:
10/28/02 #19 ORDER as to Christopher Tresco GRANTING the [16-1] motion by USA for Reduction of Sentence under the Provisions of Rule as to Christopher Tresco (1); REDUCING Deft's sentence to 13 mos., consisting of 6 mos. in jail and remaining 7 mos. to be served in community confinement, with work release permitted, as directed by the B.O.P. and the P.O. Further ORDERED that previously ordered 11/1/02 surrender date is VACATED and Deft is permitted to surrender voluntarily to B.O.P. once he has been designated. All other sentence terms and conditions remain in effect. Further ORDERED that as an add'l. cond. of supervised release, Deft may not use the Internet for any non-work related purpose without the express, prior permission of the P.O. (Signed by Judge T. S. Ellis III) Mailed: Yes (tbul) [Entry date 10/30/02]
Rich Berry:
10/18/02 #11 ORDER as to Richard Allen Berry granting [9-1] motion by USA to Reduce Sentence as to Richard Allen Berry (1) and the Dft's sentence is reduced from the 33 mos. heretofore imposed to 12 mos. to be served on home confinement with work release. ( Signed by Judge Claude M. Hilton ) Copies Mailed: yes (psid) [Entry date 10/21/02]
Barry Erickson:
11/25/02 #15 ORDER as to Barry Erickson granting [13-1] motion by USA as to Barry Erickson for Reduction of Sentence under the provisions of Rule 35(B) and the Dft's sentence is reduced from the 33 mos. heretofore imposed to 15 mos. ( Signed by Judge Claude M. Hilton ) Copies Mailed: yes (psid) [Entry date 11/26/02]
Dave Grimes:
11/15/02 #11 ORDER as to David Grimes granting [9-1] motion by USA for Reduction of Sentence Under the Provisions of Rule 35(B) and Dft's sentence is reduced from 37 mos. hertofore imposed to 16 mos. ( Signed by Judge Claude M. Hilton ) Copies Mailed: yes (psid) [Entry date 11/19/02]
Stacey Nawara:
10/25/02 #18 ORDER as to Stacey Nawara GRANTING the [16-1] motion by USA for Reduction of Sentence under the Provisions of Rule 35(B) as to Stacey Nawara (1). Deft's sentence is REDUCED to 9 mos., to be served in jail either on consecutive days or on the weekends, and the remaining 8 mos. to be served in community confinement, with work release permitted, as directed by the B.O.P and the P.O., and with voluntary surrender. Further ORDERED that an additional special condition of supervised release is added: Deft may not use the Internet for any non-work related purpose without the express prior permission of the P.O. ( Signed by Judge T. S. Ellis III ) Copies Mailed: Yes (tbul) [Entry date 10/28/02]
Nathan Hunt:
11/1/02 #13 ORDER as to Nathan Hunt granting [11-1] motion by USA to Reduce Sentence as to Nathan Hunt (1). ORDERED that the 33 Months term of imprisonment imposed in the Judgment and Commitment Order of June 21, 2002, be and is reduced to a total sentence of 24 months. ( Signed by Judge Leonie M. Brinkema ) Copies Mailed: 11.01.02 (rtra) [Entry date 11/04/02]
Hey, where I grew up, possession of a joint was a felony. Worked real well, dude. Pass me that tray of brownies, man.
If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
Remember it's texas. I'm glad he didn't recommend the death penalty (although that only applies to minorities and immigrants, not young white males).
I conduct religious services in jails in Texas. I can assure that young white males are also given the death penalty. I think you could have said that rich defendants do not get the death penalty - this seems to be closer to being accurate, sadly enough (though it, too, is not completely true)...
... any ideas what they could do about freenet when it becomes more robust?
Jaysyn
There is a war going on for your mind.
I don't see a problem here. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.
there can be no justice so long as laws are absolute...
I was recently using Kazaa to download a lot of music. It occurred to me: What would happen if they decided to raid me (okay, I'm paranoid sometimes)?
Well, first of all, they'd discover that most, if not all of the songs I downloaded, I also have on CD, so they'd have to go compare those hundreds of songs against the hundreds of CDs I have. Why did I download instead of make my own MP3s? Convenience. Plain and simple.
Next, they'd have to prove that I never bought the songs I downloaded. What if I lost the CD? I'm entitled to a back-up. Prove I've never owned it before! You can't.
Finally, there's the whole point of CD sales. I'll grant that I haven't bought a single CD since the lawsuit against Napster. But that is just as much due to the fact that I haven't found much music that I like since then as anything else.
Frankly, I think it would be hard to prove that any individual doesn't have rights to the music they download because you're allowed to make copies. The fact that you don't have the original or proof of purchase of the original does not constitute proof that you copied illegally.
Anyway, just my opinion, but I doubt they'd be able to mount much of a case against me, and in the meantime, they'd be spending a lot of time and money trying to reconcile my collection of CDs against my collection of MP3s to prove that I've broken the law.
Yes, we all know that you haven't ever spat gum onto a sidewalk when you were seven and didn't know any better.:)
Is this a sigs-optional kind of place? 'Cause I am totally down with that if you know what I mean.
How dare you use "stationary" (non-moving) to mean "stationery" (envelopes and crap)? You, sir, are the greatest criminal of all.
Is this a sigs-optional kind of place? 'Cause I am totally down with that if you know what I mean.
I love this idea. In fact, I think that we should start raiding the Bush daughters' rooms and throw them in jail for 3 years. You can't tell me that those two aren't illegally downloading music.
If not them, then certainly the children of representatives and senators. If this guy wants to show how truly just he is, then I'm sure he'd be more than happy to make his children examples of what happens when you don't follow the law.
Oh, and when in doubt, blame college students!
It's a joke. Just do a search on any articles by Molly Ivins. Start on this one and work your way back.
There doesn't seem to be any smoking gun as far as contributions from the RIAA based on his list of contributors or the list of contributing industries. It is clear that the National Beer Wholesalers Association is his top contributor, so...maybe he was just drunk.
However, you are 5x more likely to get the death penalty in the US if you are a minority (regardless of the jury makeup).
...). We need educated people to be judging others. A jury of your peers is generally not that (peers).
I am for the death penalty just not in it's current form. There are so many glaring flaws in our judicial system a "fair trial" is almost impossible to receive.
This is why most lawyers try to get the dumbest ass people on the jury. So they will overlook the obvious problems in their assertations (both prosicution and defense lawyers). We need people who understand the evidence being presented. Instead of the lowest common denominator. A housewife in Oklahoma generally will completely overlook DNA evidence because it's over her head (as will a truck driver, waiter,
Sad really. I just hope I never have to go before our jury system where people believe Eye Witness testimony over DNA evidence or that CSI is anything like a real forensics team (my wife gets very irritated with this because it's her field of study).
You are right however that being rich plays a very big part as well. However, only in cases where the evidence is questionable (probably because they have access to better lawyers). Our country seems to forget the principle of innocent until proven guilty. Although in a country that goes to war because it's convenient, no proof of weapons of mass destruction (wasn't the initial reason Nuclear weapons, which is now just the catch all weapons of mass destruction).
Oh well, I guess GW is God's president. Lord knows killing people is exactly what God wants. Oh yeah, and so much for social programs helping other people (God doesn't like to help the poor either), I guess a tax cut for the rich (which I am one of) is more important than helping others.
GW/Republicans == Hypocrites.
Oh btw, they have the house, senate, judges and presidency. Do you think they'll overturn abortion? No, because it wouldn't give them a good issue when the stupid public votes and it would energize the liberal/left.
GW/Republicans == Pandering to stupid religious types.
This is precisely what should be done. What do you want? Do you want a world of DRM and total corporate control of your computers and media players? Or do you want a world where ONLY the people who break the law run the risk of facing consequences while those who obey the law (and this isn't some NEW law; this is law that has been there since the founding of the republic) retain their complete freedom?
You don't have, never have had, nor should you ever have the right to steal copyrighted material. And only those who do steal should face the consequences. Why should my ability to use free software or copy a movie I purchased be limited because you don't want to pay for music?
None of this is meant to defend the RIAA or MPAA, who are pushing for these control technologies because they do not want to respond to a change in the economic structure of their business and the nature of their consumer's demand. They are definitely behind the times and their reaction is to ask for a slew of new laws and control technologies. The law on the books is more than enough.
I'm all for prosecuting under the existing laws. And I'm totally opposed to new laws to give control of my hardware to these "content corporations."
I'm also all for those who want to boycott these companies and I'm all for those artists who are finding new ways to release and finance their work. But I support neither your "right" to steal legally protected works, nor the corporation's "rights" to take over my machines.
It is also true that if the government shot jaywalkers on sight there'd be less jaywalking. Does that mean they should be allowed to do so?
Insightful!? Off-topic much?
Not that I don't agree with you...
If you were to pop a cap in one of these idiot reps' asses, I think it would also act as a deterent against trying to make these kinds of laws.
Dennis Hastert for president!
the elected representative of a newly formed congressional district in Texas (formed when Texas passed New York in population) that runs from the north-western reaches Houston metropolitan area through Brazos County (which includes College Station (Texas A&M University) and Bryan (Blinn College) and then west to Williamson County (Round Rock (Dell Computer) and Georgetown (SouthWestern University).
As was mentioned, this district is highly conservative, and Carter was the winner of a very nasty six candidate primary. The opponent was liberal enough that Carter was a shoe-in. Many of us here voted for Carter because the other choice was even worse. As a bit of full disclosure, I will state that I did vote for Carter in the general election and the primary run-off, but did not vote for him in the primary.
Carter has a reputation as a tough judge, but he is not unusual in that respect - in a state where judges are elected, a judge who wants to be re-elected is a tough judge (otherwise, the "soft on crime" label gets hung on them - this is something that rarely gets mentioned in the discussions of the Texas death penalty figures).
If the A&M students would vote, I suspect that Carter could be replaced in 2004, but I hold little hope of that - they could also impact the mayor and city council elections here in College Station - a city council that seems to be inclined to pass laws that adversely affect their lives - and they can't be bothered to do that, so I can't see them taking the time to vote in a congressional race. Of course, if a few A&M students did get arrested for file swapping, it might galvanize them.
Some posters have also mentioned the infamous resnet the LAN in the dorms here at A&M. It is a major file-swapping center (also a major source of viral infections - some have likened it to a brothel...). However, A&M is starting to be pretty aggressive in cracking down on systems when a complaint is filed. I do computer support for a large department here, and have had to shut off a couple of general access systems that had been the source of complaints (one from the MPAA and one from an Audio Book author's agent). I suspect that similar things are happening in the dorms.
I hope that this gives some more background on things. I can't say that I'm happy about Carter's remarks - they show a lack of proportionality that is common among lawmakers these days. I won't go off on that rant, but I'll finish with this: John Carter will probably be re-elected from this district unless a good viable option is presented. This means that the opposing candidate is either a republican (not likely - incumbants rarely face a challenge from their own party around here) or a conservative (pro-life) democrat (also not likely - the democratic party appears to use abortion as a litmus test (certainly the local party here is hand in hand with Planned Parenthood)). He has almost a year and a half to pull this particular foot out of his mouth, and he will most likely survive it. After all, how is he going to be challenged on this issue? As others have said, the law is clear. It may not be idealogically correct to some of you - there are certainly some areas where it is incorrect to me (as an example, if I can not buy the music because a label no longer makes it available or refuses to release the rights back to the artist, I am not sure why this is wrong...) - but, until it is changed, the law is the law. A former judge is inclined to enforce the law. If what he proposes is extreme, well... that's fairly consistant with other proposals surrounding this issue.
what possible justification could there be for punishments for possession of small amounts of harmless substances or intellectual property outweighing the punishments for things like -rape- or -vehicular manslaughter-?
just remember who makes the laws in this country. its not us, its the lobbying groups.
YM
"they are committing an act of terror." or "they are supporting the terrorists."
HTH.
Just as criminalizing drugs, and establishing mandatory minimum sentences has done nothing to stem the tide of drug trafficking, this will do nothing to eliminate file trading.
What I find criminal is that this horse's ass sitting in Washington collecting tax dollars to live high on the hog, and make our lives more difficult wants to permanently screw up the lives of these 'example' students forever by making them felons. Once they're convicted of a felony like this, they'll be ineligible for student aid, they'll be unable to vote, and they're criminal records will be held against them by potential employers for a long time. Not to mention the fact that it will cost us $120,000 per student locked up ($40,000 per year per inmate at a Federal prison), I find the proposal and the cost absolutely outrageous, and reprehensible.
I believe this man should be run from office as soon as possible before he screws up anyone's life.
How does "making an example" of someone fit with "equality before the law"? The U.S. justice system is to have NO intentional example cases. If he really believes people belong in jail for downloading, he should be trying to jail the, oh, what was it? 40 million people? Yeah. And if not, then he should leave every last one of them alone.
I've been saying, since the inception of Napster, that this should be one of ways that police and content owners fight back. Talk of three years hard time is a bit over zealous, but a criminal record and jail time is appropriate if you ask me.
Most current file-traders are doing the kind of traffic that fair use laws weren't meant to protect. Just because it's now 1's and 0's doesn't change the net affect P2P sharing of copyrighted materials has had on the business end of things. I'm not saying all business models should be holy and safe from change, but they should get protection from criminal acts.
Change jail time to some kind of community service, and it's a better solution than trying to force DRM upon us all, at least.
Remind me again about what is not 'innovative' about a global media network that is neither controlled or owned by any one entity?
Remind me again about what is not 'innovative' about being able to type in a band's name, anywhere in the world, and hear their music within minutes?
+&x
While Carter's definitely going overboard with the level of punishment, I'd rather see the RIAA et al. going after individual GGTM[1]-violators than trying to get the government to lock down the technology.
[1] Government-Granted Temporary Monopoly. I refuse to use the term 'Intellectual Property', which implies ownership of ideas, etc. It's not property you can own, it's a temporary monopoly granted by the government.
"Copyright violation was always, for more than two hundred years of American history, a CIVIL violation, not a CRIMINAL one."
Only for downloaders is it a criminal offence. Ripping off copyrighted songs and incorporating them into your own, IF YOU ARE A RECORD PRODUCER, is still a civil matter.
Nice? If the music is sent via MTV and recorded its fair use and perfectly legal. If its send via DSL and recorded its a felony with a long sentence. Even though the record companies give the product free (with promotional video) to MTV to promote the artists.
it's not the severity of punishment that dissuades people, it's the chances of getting caught. if the chances of getting caught (no matter what the punishment is) are high, then most people will not commit the crime.
if the punishment is very high, but the chances of getting caught are low, people will do it anyway. Look at the amount of drug use that takes place in the US, this is a perfect example.
(-1, Raw and Uncut is the only way to read)
Democracy.
KFG
I don't believe the "retail value" works the way we think, either. I believe it's much higher. You would think that each song would be worth $20 CD divided by 12 (or so) = $1.66. But it's much higher than that. I'm looking for a link, but having no luck. The numbers will always work in the RIAA's favor, I suppose.
the verb "jail" means "temporarily detain until we execute them" or "hold them dang sonsabitches til we's can kills 'em. Yee haw!"
Remind me again about what is not 'innovative' about being able to type in a band's name, anywhere in the world, and hear their music within minutes?
The people who built the system were innovative. The people who use it are not. Think of the telephone: is everyone who makes a telephone call a great innovator like Alexander Graham Bell? Is everyone who switches on a lightbulb an innovator like Thomas Edison?
---------------------
Congressman Sessions:
As a voter in your district, I'm writing in response to an article (http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,58081,0 0.html) in which your fellow Texas Representative from the 34th District, John Carter, explictly expresses support for prosecuting as felons people who participate in illegal file sharing online. While I recognize that such action is in violation of copyright law, I also recognize that representative Carter's statements are a direct reflection of the common agenda of the Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA) and the Motion Picture Association of America (MPAA) and of the sizable campaign contributions that these organizations are using to influence legislation in thier direction.
Let me be clear that this letter is not in advocacy of illegal file sharing, but rather in response to the misguided stance of felony prosecution that your fellow representative has publicly taken. This is a problem that is endemic of the internet age, and is a result of there being an inadequate system of permanent distribution of these media from their respective industries (e.g. CDs & DVDs that scratch/crack/break, and audio and VHS tapes that degrade with time) and the availability of technological measures to ensure the indefinite lifespan of the media with digital archiving on computers.
Thus, it is apparent that, rather than fight the swell of illegal file sharing with threats of felony prosecution, thereby placing the onus of responsibility on the end user, the onus is instead squarely upon the RIAA and MPAA to discover a means to utilize the advancement of technology to discover a better means of distribution for their media.
This issue has arisen purely from the sphere of economics. Simply, why would I pay $18 for a CD/$30 for a DVD whose lifespan I cannot guarantee and whose replacement I will have sole financial responsibility for in the event of loss when an alternative, regardless of its legality, exists and is readily available (e.g. internet file sharing). However, if these industries were to offer their product in electronic format for a reduced cost (effected by saving themselves the cost of physical media and its physical distribution), or in some other way ensure that I have indefinite access to the media I purchased, then the argument for legitimate purchase would be much more compelling, and I'd be much less likely to engage in illegal file sharing in lieu of commercial obtainment.
These industries try to stand on both sides of the intellectual property argument, which hurls the legitimacy of their entire stance into a dubious light. On the one hand, by claiming violation of copyright law by unlicensed distribution of the content electronically, they clearly state that the value of the CD or DVD is in its artistic content and not in the physical media. On the other hand, by denying the availability of indefinite access to the content in case of a damaged CD or DVD, they state clearly that the user is purchasing not the content with their dollars but rather the physical medium itself.
Obviously, these ideas are contradictory, and quite obviously, the internet file sharing phenomenon of RIAA and MPAA content is a clear REACTION to the failure of these industries to act responsibly and consistently in their obligation to participate in fair commerce with the public sector.
And so, returning to the genesis of this letter, I ask, as a voter, that you take all measures to oppose any movement within the legislature that would seek to prosecute as criminals users who participate in illegal file sharing, and instead support legislature which would direct the RIAA and MPAA towards all efforts at finding an appropriate mechanism for media content distribution that would insure indefinite access for the consumers who purchase their products.
Thank you for your time. Regards,
--<name>
Carter said in an interview. "If you were to prosecute someone and give them three years, I think this would act as a deterrent."
I agree completely. That would be a very effective deterrent to trying to prosecute file traders. I suspect it would only take once.
I beleive he was referring to our tendency to expand on existing laws to harrass and jail dissidents.
I can easily see that a number of "innocent" people could be jailed becuase they disagree with various "interests". By labeling all those prosecuted as "theiving kids", the public would turn a blind eye to those that should not be prosecuted for going against the status quo.
Some of us take a longer view and see the evil consequences of good intetnions.
Just a Tuna in the Sea of Life
Locking up a few of "these kids" worked so well with our War on Drugs!
If he succeeds, pretty soon there won't be any file trading, just like now there are no more illegal drugs in this country!
Just like with pot, we'll need to let a few convicted rapists and murderers and armed robbers and such out of prison early in order to make room for all the kids who download mp3's.
So we have ruined the lives of a few kids who aren't even doing anything harmful and making a mockery of our treatment of more serious crimes in order to deter an unproven effect of filesharing, namely that it's killing the music industry (in the same way that tape copying killed the music industry back in the 80s).
And, of course, anyone who has studied basic behavioral psychology would understand why this still wouldn't keep anyone from sharing files.
Would someone please hand the US government a cluestick? We already have a much larger percentage of our population in prison than any other developed country, but our crime rate is still off the wall. It seems pretty obvious to me that at minimum the US criminal justice system is terminally ill and needs some major rethinking, and at worse the cure is worse than the disease.
Of course, I'm sure this is not who the police would choose to go after, but if some concerned citizen monitoring a network were to collect evidence and mysteriously hand it over to police, wouldn't they have almost a duty to prosecute?
Seriously, though, I highly doubt this case would win in a real court. He's just a bit short on cash and needs some of that music label love...
For price fixing, monopoly, etc. ...
Our economy is sinking rapidly and having a piece of paper, ain't gonna pay the bills any differently than those who strive without paper. We all know that college and education in general is nothing more than an extension of our governments policies of "making a good citizen out of you, fit for the worldly ways". If for some reason you decide to go into debt and get a piece of paper, why not live off campus? I'm certain with these type of bandwidth policies in place, it'll drive ppl off campus!
If our government does decide to impose stiff penalities for filetrading it will help americans greatley; First it will make parents mad as hell at congress over IP laws and petition change, and secondely it will drive people to decentralized, encyrpted p2p systems like freenet all of which is Good for our society!
Oh, wait..
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Steal the CD from a store rather than downloading the 12 tracks.
And is it true that some people get a choice of the army or jail in the USA?
Not quite on-topic but just to answer your question, no. At least not any more. Many years ago, up to around WWII or so, this was in fact a common situation. You could be offered the choice of jail or the army. Today's US military is an all-volunteer force with fairly stringent standards as to who they'll take.
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." Col. Jeff Cooper
you are the weakest link, goodbye.
From my cold dead hands...
hey it worked for Charlton Heston...
...sodomy still illegal in 13 states, the supreme court has ruled it perfectly acceptable to arrest someone for a minor traffic violation, and if John Ashcroft deems you a "hostile combatant," you can kiss your rights goodbye in most districts of the united states.
You say
not like this will make a diffrence but its simply something to think about. ok I have litteraly Never bought a CD I can never see the cost benefit in it. but assume that its true that they put 3 good dongs on a cd and the rest are crap. how long does it take for them to make those songs? how much work do they put in it? a CD costs 20 bucks (i think :) how much does a good novel cost? something that some person has devoted years of their life to creating. . . It just seems to me that these music people might be a little selfish. and if they say well I have to pay for my car and house etc. so what so does ever other person in the world you should be happy to be so fortunate!
Is it just me, or does it sound like this guy wants another Kevin Mitnick? It seems that when the government decides to make an example out of somebody when it comes to tech-related crimes, they go the the extremes. The difference in this case, however, is that I'd be willing to bet that unlike the Mitnick case, you wouldn't have the person who was prosecuted denouncing their past activities. Not to mention you'll basically be ruining someone's life for nothing - you can go legit as a former hacker and earning a living from it, but what is a "reformed" file trader supposed to do?
That P2P file sharing is not an illegal activity under any law!!!
It only becomes illegal if a file is traded that is copyrighted AND (most importantly) the recipient doesn't have permission (license) to use said file. End of story.
...quicker, easier, more seductive the darkside is...but more powerful, it is not.
I can see the next big US laws right in front of my brain...
5-10 years for drinking imported beer
15-25 years for thinking impure thoughts
lifetime for knowing an arab, or knowing someone who knows an arab, or being related to someone who once went out for lunch with the mother-in-law of a guy who once heard there was such a thing as arabia
death sentence for smoking anything besides marlboro, or voting for someone except dubya.
hey, why not just build a wall around the US? I mean, of the maybe 300 million people there, I'm sure at least 95% have comitted a crime, thought about comitting a crime, or are able to spell the word "crime" without help.
Karma
He was basically appointed president by the Justice Department.
I don't think this war is for 'no good reason'. It may be a weak reason or a bad financial commitment carried nearly exclusively by the US and arrogantly executed though...
"Oh, the Jedis are going to feel this one."
To make laws that man cannot, and will not obey, serves to bring all law into contempt.
--E.C. Stanton
Just like outlawing alcohol during prohibition ....we know how effective that was.
...is to not only boycott CDs, but ALSO stop using P2P for copyrighted material. If we download free music only from sources like mp3.com, javamusic, Overclocked ReMix, etc. the RIAA will be unable to say that P2P is hurting their business, because we're not even listening to their music at all. If their music isn't being traded on (insert P2P app of choice here), AND we're refusing to buy from them, they're caught between a rock and a hard place. I for one would not find this difficult, either, given the quality of recent "music." There's a reason I listen to the classical station on the radio, you know...
Guess who just got himself unelected come next term. Talk about Rock the Vote! He is doing more to encourage voting than any MTV special can ever do.
qz
I mean, it worked for drugs... oh wait...
Want to Know How to Cheat the GPL? Read On!
But we're off-topic here. Check out Perfessor Multigeek's Journal instead. If you want a look at the other side of the fence, there's always Twirlip of the Mists.
Money for nothing, pix for free
OK, you kids, who's not gonna get re-elected next term?
This sig no verb.
This sounds damn good to me. In fact, they can come get me if they want. What we need is a good arrest to make people realise how absurd the current legislation is.
So go ahead, arrest me. I can be the next Kevin Mitnick, and perhaps we can get people to get off their asses and protest laws that are obviously designed to promote big business at the expense of consumers.
RIAA and their bribed congressmen repeatadly say that file sharing is no different than stealing.
Yet why is file sharing copyrighted works considered a felony, while going into a store and just stealing it is not?
Got Freedom?
Thinking?
They actually would do this in Texas.
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
Hey, it would be effective! Just don't freakin' park there--what's the problem?
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
Seriously. I don't understand why, but why don't we just get rid of most of these notions of copyright. A large portion of the American population thinks its fine to copy files/dvds/vhs all sorts of things.
.
Copyright is a grant by the government of a monopoly right to produce a product.
So lets get rid of it. It's an outdated notion, and it's not like anyone has God-given right to anything sort of grant by the government. It is not 'immoral' or 'unethical' to replicate intellectual property, except for the legal aspect.. Most of our economic laws are in place to encourage a certain economic structure. Laws against activities that hurt people=Moral questions. Laws to promote economic model=matter of preference.
It is already a very common practice, and I would guess that a majority of Americans think file sharing to fantastic, not criminal.
Why hasn't anyone seriously proposed this? Sure, it would hurt contributions from the entertainment industry, but it would probably increase contributions from electronics manufactures (Sony/Intel/etc), and be a great campaign issue: "You want your Napster? Fine. Vote for the Democrats(or Republican, or Green, or whoever is willing to do it) and you'll get it. We'll even throw in some funding to get Internet2 online faster, and make person-2-person even faster!"
Before you snicker at that idea, realize that then there could be reasonable regulations to protect certain industries. Music=freely tradable. Movies=freely tradable. Software=2 years before its freely tradable. Books=4 years before they are freely tradable. Etc. .
Sure, Books and Software would still be illegaly traded, but keeping it illegal for a little while would prevent wholesale production of knockoffs.
But as far as I, and most of the American public is probably concerned, unlikes books and software, music is performed! . And that's good enough to encourage individuals to go into the music industry. Remember: Copyright exists to promote the arts and sciences. Musicians have a viable revenue stream without the recording industry.
And the recording industry? I don't care if record execs end up in the gutter. They plan on sending college 'kids' to jail? Bah. The Government no longer needs to issue a monopoly to these people. They don't provide any useful function anymore. The internet can do what they did at a fraction of the cost, with far greater accesibility. So what if there is dilution---->If the government was willing to endorse wholesale filesharing, it might even start the golden age internet advocates have been talking about for ages.
WhiteWolf666 an exBush supporter. All you new-school,compassionate,save the children Republicans can rot in hell
Washington, DC
408 Cannon House Office Building,
Washington, DC 20515
phone: 202-225-3864
Round Rock Office:
One Financial Center
1717 North IH 35
Suite 303
Round Rock, TX 78664
phone: 512-246-1600
College Station Office:
1111 University Dr. East
Suite 216
College Station, TX 77840
phone: 979-846-6068
3 years in prison for trading files? Well, if I'll have to spend 3 years for doing some crime, I might as well drive 59 mph in a 25 mph zone and kill someone riding a bike. At least make it worth something...
This guy apparently has never heard of the phrase selective enforcement.
For those that do not know, it is illegal to practice selective enforcement.
The reason it isn't legal, and shouldn't be is that by only presecuting select individuals, you create an inequity in the justice system (ok.. don't get on me about all the inequities there are now).
The point is that selective enforcement allows people (not laws) to determine who gets punished. Be the wrong skin color, wrong age, not buy-off enough people, and those prosecutors may come after you for simple crimes.
So, in order to send ANY number of people to jail, the prosecutors must show that they are actively persuing all crimes of this nature. In fact, if I was one of these kids I would probably use that as a defense. I would put to burden on the prosecutor to prove to a jury that they are not targeting (profiling) my racial/ethnical/age profile. Show me the hundreds of other cases out there you are investigating, etc..etc..
if you use any p2p applications, may you die of guilt knowing you are funding saddam husain!
Your comment about life in prison is scary, yes, but not factually accurate. It is impossible to get life in prison as you suggested as copyright infringement prosecutions are all FEDERAL jurisdiction, not STATE. Therefore, California three strikes laws would not apply, and neither would any other state laws for that matter (except those not preempted.)
Hey,
;)
Why don't we all join one of those music clubs, get the initial set of CDs at the low price, and then NOT buy anymore!
Wait...I already did that
I've never posted on a subject more than once before, and now I have posted three times on this one...
The Texas Department of Criminal Justice (TDCJ) has been warning that it is approaching peak capacity. They're looking at the possibility of having to parole people early to create room for newly-sentenced convicts.
I really hope that those who have been convicted of rape, assault, drug-dealing, etc. are not being released to make room for file traders!
As I said before, this proposal is not proportional - if stealing a CD in a store is a misdemeanor, while downloading the songs that comprise the CD is a federal felony, something is wrong. Of course, when compared with proposals to hack systems or run DDoS attacks, imprisonment seems to fit right in...
In my opinion most of the politicians are criminals. In fact I believe they are far worse than any file trader. Let's put the real criminals behind bars. Only when politicians stop stealing from the public to they have any right to point fingers.
Hello kettle? This is pot.
I propose we use one of *his* children as one of those "examples" and see how long he sticks to his tune....
The world won't end in darkness, it'll end in family fun, with Coca-cola clouds behind a Big Mac sun.
They own car + I take car = they lost car = theft They own data + I take data = they still have the data = copying Copying does not equate to theft. If they're going to survive in a digital world they have to learn to deal with the fact that data will be copied. Many businesses around the world are handling this by creating a much larger emphasis on service, rather than just their products. Massively Multiplayer games require subscriptions. MS is planning to require subscriptions for their software to work (which will only work online). Companies like Sun and RedHat offer large service packages. Music is going to have to find a way to deal with the new market. Whining won't stop the world from evolving.
http://www.deadpete.tripod.com/
I think it's more likely he would find him self out of job at the end of his term...One can only hope.
Anyway, those in the Austin, Round Rock area, call him: 512-246-1600 and politely express your opinion.
It IS against the LAW! Stop stealling and only trade music you have the right to trade. Get P2P out of the sights of the RIAA. I bet if you look you can find some free music too. Comeon take a look, see what you can find, the web is a very large place. If you want to hear music of the "brand name" type then record it off the radio; but dont share it! But it's best to support the artist that support the P2P crowd. Don't ask me why I have no links; I don't work for you; get your OWN links!
;)
Thanks For Reading....
I don't want a pickle; I just want a Motor-Cycle! A four foot cop arrived with a five foot gun!
In much the same way that the death penalty has deterred murder in Texas.
(note to the sarcastically impaired: step away from the "reply" button)
Dear Will, the plums were poisoned. -- Cheese Club
Call it theft or whatever, but I think that the everyday 40+ hour a week employee has voiced its opposition to the practices of the recording industry that takes money away from the working class to support the lifestyle of the artists.
Just as a side note (not a criticism) but its often pointed out that these practices do not in fact support most artists. These practices are designed to support the recording labels ONLY and for all but the biggest song stars, often screw the artist. I'll leave it to the imagination of those searching article history to find the examples that people have referenced.
"All great wisdom is contained in .signature files"
Excellent idea - then we can harvest their organs like China!
someone should email him a mp3 and hope that he downloads it or something to throw him into this "young punk" croud.
also the one thing i learned in classes
jail = 15 days - 1 year time
prison = more than a year for felonys, you cant go to prison without a felnoy (unless your mitnik or something)
so thats right no white colar resort "jail" looks like your going to pound me in the azz prison
Local Sheriff: So, you thought you could enforce an outdated business model on the consumers eh?
RIAA: Yes! And we would have gotten away with it too if it wasn't for those meddling kids!
Really, I know what I'm doing...Ohhhh, look at the shiny buttons!
with any arguments about loss in profit are the situations that can't be rectified with it.
For example: if I download MP3s from a concert I attended, where have the profits been lost? How about if I download MP3s from a concert that happened before I was born? Since I was unable to attend anyway, has money been lost here?
What about albums that aren't for sale anymore? The only way to buy that album is used, and the artist makes no profit from this. Where has money been lost?
I'm not saying I'm for or against file-trading, I'm actually rather neutral. For every example RIAA can claim, there is an exception like the one above, but for every example a trader can give, there is also an exception. What about the indie artist who is struggling to survive?
Neither side has presented very good answers to these exceptions, and instead tries to ignore them. Before anyone can claim for or against file -trading, or anything for that matter, they should look at all situations and exceptions.
Just my 2 cents.
CODITO, ERGO SUM: I Code, therefore I am.
Since jails are already overcrowded, I assume the judicial system will become more lenient on those who are true dangers to society to make room for those who watch free movies. Makes sense to me. :/
How can you compare a crime which can kill people like DUI to small copyright infringement?
They're not even in the same league.
Please think it over.
... want to jail Texas rep.
Remember boys and girls, the next time you are confronted by the police over illegal drug posession, or distribution of pirated music/software, immedately and violently assault the next person you see. That way you can get your sentance reduced from 3-10 years to 6 months.
[Insert /. joke about Bush being from Texas too here]. I think the relationship is self evident.
... is that prosecuting every single one of them, or even more than just a handful of them, would end up costing more money than what the record companies are "losing" to piracy. Even if we had ten times the number of prisons we do now, there still wouldn't be enough space to hold even half of the infringers. Ultimately, in a digital age, you can't even make a dent in illegal copying without trying to stop *all* copying, legal or otherwise. It is, btw, impossible to refute the existence of legal copying -- for example, a company doing regular backups of its own data. And since media is, ultimately, just data -- it's only the end user (and arguably the application that the media format is intended for) that sees such media for what it is. Until computers can think like people, they will not be able to differentiate between copyrighted data and uncopyrighted data, so any legislation in this matter at this point is meaningless without halting progression of the arts until computer technology can "safely" accomodate it.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Regardless of the (il)legalities of file trading, if you're going to have a certain law and you're going to apply it, you have to apply it uniformly. You can't punish one college student (and of course all file-traders are college students) for the crimes of the many. It's fundamentally unjust, and I don't know much about the U.S. constitution, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was also unconstitutional. If you're going to start locking up file-traders, you have to lock up every single file trader.
Then again, this guy comes from a state where they consider gassing the occassional innocent person a small price to pay for the peace of mind of that portion of their population that is wealthy and white and therefore doesn't need to worry about getting wrongfully executed. I guess by comparison ruining some college kid's life is not so big a deal.
When I moved out to go to university last year and got my (off-campus, non-university) broadband internet connection up, I signed up for a little service called Audiogalaxy. Anyone remember Audiogalaxy? It was a community-oriented p2p music-trading service. The community-oriented bit, I found fantastic. Yes, you could just use it to download songs. You could also, however, join groups of people with similar musical tastes, who would forward you songs from artists you may never have heard before. Had it not been for Audiogalaxy, I might never have been introduced to artists like Pedro the Lion, Onelinedrawing, and The Weakerthans.
In the last year, I bought two CDs by The Weakerthans, one by Onelinedrawing, I have an order form filled out for a pair of Pedro the Lion CDs, some Pedro the Lion and Onelinedrawing merchandise, and I have tickets to see The Weakerthans in Calgary this weekend.
Is this a bad thing for the artists and labels? Do they just not want my money? I wouldn't have spent that money on Eminem and Britney Spears, sorry. If I hadn't been introduced to these other bands I wouldn't have spent that money on music at all. Peer-to-peer could be an absolute goldmine for the recording industry. It's free advertising. Do you know how much the recording industry spend on advertising last year? I don't even want to look it up. I'm afraid the incredible size of the number would cause this library computer to crash. It's probably written with scientific notation.
The funny thing is, the people who have the most lobbying power within the RIAA aren't the small record labels like Jade Tree or G7 or Vagrant or Deep Elm, the little guys who are attempting to run an honest business, support good artists, and bring good art out so that the public can enjoy it. They're the giant conglomerates, the ones who are responsible for Toni Braxton going broke despite selling $188 million dollars worth of CDs. These people don't care if I want to listen to good music. These people hate that I spend my money on bands I like, rather than no-talent pop-sensations. These people do not represent legitimate artists and recording companies - these people represent parasites, who take advantage of artists in able to fill their own pockets.
I can't use Audiogalaxy now. It got turned into a pay-service, and copyright restrictions wrecked the entire service. I buy far fewer records now, because I have less exposure to new artists. My friends still recommend bands to me; I'll read about a show someone went to in their livejournal, and I'll download an mp3, and if I like the band, I may end up buying a CD or some concert tickets. I'm a pirate, a felon, and a thief for that. This is insane.
Yes, there will be people out there who will never buy music, ever. They'll steal mp3s and burn hundreds of CDs. Whatever. There are people out there that pirate dvds, too. Yes, it does hurt the industry. What will hurt the industry more, though, is clinging to outdated business models and preying upon the artists that provide the foundation for the entire industry. These mega-corps could be capitalising upon free advertising, diversifying their portfolios. They could have a Spears for every genre going platinum, and without having to spend millions on full-page ads in Vanity Fair and putting giant billboards up in Times Square.
It won't happen. The big-wigs will continue to bleed their artists dry and fight all calls for change. And I'll continue to steal mp3s, listen to who I like, and buy CDs from talented artists who can't whore themselves out on Coca-Cola commercials, people whose success is based on actual artistic merit. So it goes.
Cool. Lets all got out an commit a felony. Shooting John Carter sounds like a good way to get the ball rolling...Fight for peace! </sarcasm>
Really. A death-throe proposal from one of the industry freeloaders. And they call themselves politicians. Bah! Added value, every time this is discussed on /. RIAA finks trawl through the replies and see our responses.
Then go back and shit their loads all over valenti et als desks.
Its B-eautiful
"If you were to prosecute someone and give them three years, I think this would act as a deterrent."
Yep - that should work. It's sure been effective in the War on Drugs.
I didn't realize any record labels were located in texas.
slave labor for the state that brought you Enron.
In the great CONS chain of life, you can either be the CAR or be in the CDR.
Is P2P music downloading a crime that carries a penalty of jail time? Then I say jail the criminals!
WeRelate.org - wiki-based genealogy
Does it occurr to ANY of you that you are doing something wrong and illegal here--Life isn't always fair...the music industry certainly isn't fair, but that doesn't give you legal right to screw them...
and it's not civil disobedience unless you allow an example to be made of yourself and passively protest by allowing yourself to be arrested to expose the stupidity of your detention.
It's AGAINST THE LAW. period. End of story. If you don't break the law then you don't have trouble. If you don't like the law then change it--with enough momentum and active support, this is possible...if you don't like the government then I'd like to see you try and change it--because the system has survived an awful lot more than you have.
The solution is not to arrogantly steal music (it is stealing, yes--theft is defined by the law. if you don't like this, see above)
Brian
Oh yeah, this sounds like a good idea... lets lock up a bunch students (ruining their lives, or at least their future careers) for doing something that we all did when we were younger... Anyone ever heard of cassettes?? And what were the main reasons we did it?? Well, we got to listen to a certain song whenever we wanted, we saved a little money, and it pissed off a bunch of people (which is something young people like to do for some reason... fun or some such). I can't speak for the teenagers and their like, but I can say that I DO buy more CDs now that I can sample the songs they don't play on the radio. Radio has turned into crap. If I want to listen to the same song over and over (a slight exageration) I will let my daughter hold the remote. Damn if she can't run a song into the ground.
User logging on... 300 baud... 300 BAUD?!? (Click!) NO CARRIER
It is stealing. I don't care what the rationale or justification is in doing it. I think they should throw a couple of 'kids' in jail. 3 years does seem a little extreme however.
People who trade files, rip MP3s, or make "mix" tapes are terrorists out to destroy the American way of life pure and simple. These crimes should be enough to classify one as a terrorist under the USA PATRIOT act. Hell the police should just shoot you if they suspect you of file trading.
Happy Fun Ball is for external use only.
FUCK YOU ASSHOLE........
our representative republic. The internet is a medium by which media (music, movies, games) are transmitted. Recording them should be no different than recording shows off of television or the radio. Or does this moron intend on having people who own VCRs and tape recorders jailed as well?
"Whatever info Bush has, it's more info than 99.999999% of others out there, and certainly more than all the anti-war protestors.The government has a ridiculous amount of information, and even those w/ top secret clearances don't know a vast, vast majority of it, as all clasified information is on a "need to know" basis."
TRANSLATION: ve know vhat ve arre doink!
"you people" are gettink in ze vay uf das goverment! You arre das terrorists!
ve haff ways uf dealink vith das troublemakers.
The reichstaag towers have fallen and free speach is dead. People have already been picked off the street and disappeared, by the hundreds in New Jersey alone. A US citizen has been held without trial, bail, or legal council for what is now approaching a year, even after FBI sources said he was just a punk with a big mouth. The goverment has established detention camps outside all jurisdictions - Gitmo "camp x-ray" is not constrained by the US constitution, the Geneva convention or any other law.
What should we as the "good germans" do as our goverment abandons any shred of legitimacy?
Posted as an AC from a company IP block due to legitimate concerns about what has happened to my dear country.
-- so how come you don't hear people saying, "go ahead, it's a free country" anymore?
We can use this in a bunch of situations. For example:
We know that not all people who sit in Congress are stealing from their constituents and taking money in exchange for political influence, but we're very sure that many are.
So lets take, say, one Congressman and make a real example of him by putting him in jail. That should be a real wake-up call to the rest of them.
Any nominees?
--------
Believe me, I'm as surprised by my comment as you are.
After the first prosecution, everyone would move to Freenet. Just like everyone moved from Napster. And Freenet cannot be stopped.
You forgot the baby eating.
Let's ruin the future these college students COULD have had because some 70 year old, overpaid ass hole sittin at a desk wants to set an example. Let's destroy all the money, effort, and time these students have put into their academic carreer in preparation for their future. Lets distroy the years of education they have gone though sequentially just so someone with a rather long stick up their ass can think he's making a difference....
all because they wanted to listen to some music...
I almost didn't go to college because of ass holes like that who like to USE people as sacrificial sheep...
People like him should be dragged out into the street and shot. They are playing with people's lives like it's nothing - like they're disposable entities in society - to make themselves look good and try to boost their polls a couple points.
Fuck them.... fuck politics...
FFS, would someone _please_ get an email adress on this guy, so I can send offensive mail, and subscribe this moron to a few thousand spamlists !!!
George Bush's stats from "stupid white men" by michael moore
George
arrested for drunk driving
arrested for stealing a Christmas Wreath
arrested for disorderly conduct at a football match
AWOL from Texas Air National Guard, skipped out for a year and a half
Official Biography is missing 3 years
sequence of failed businesses
more at Dry Drunk and the awful truth
I think he should go to jail first for copying his speeches from Caeser and Goering.
-- it must be true, it's on the internet.
chblue.com
-- it must be true, it's on the internet.
I don't know if you can draw such a distinct line in this case. Especially based on your examples. A phone line is just as innovative with 2 people using it, as 1,000 sets of 2 people. The lightbulb is also an individual innovation.
The power of P2P networks is based in their users, the more there are the more powerful and, essentially, innovative they become. Yes, the software is doing the organizing, but without something to organize, it's useless.
The system is the people who use/create it. If the system is innovative, then it becomes a semantic question on whether or not the people who make up the network are also to be labeled as such.
+&x
Modded funny? Check out this guy's posting history. Either he's being serious and he actually believes this bs or he's just a troll.
Why don't we just build a fence around the whole goddamn thing? That way they can't bother honest citizens with their bushes.
I don't listen to much music, and I don't use p2p much either.
Last night, though, I finally found a song that I had heard once or twice and had no idea who it was.
It turned out to be "Somewhere over the rainbow" by A New Found Glory. I never knew who they were before. I also found that they did the theme for "Neverending Story".
Now that I know who they are, I'm gonna pick up some of their cd's. Although, I'll probably see if I can find them at the used cd place first.
If you will carefully read my posting, you will note that I quoted directly from the Department of Justices NET page. I'll stand by my remarks, which address the copyright act, as presently amended.
I think we would be much better off if we just had tons of FBI agents running around, tapping our phones, breaking into our houses and shooting our computers with tommy guns and BARs, spilling the sweet sweet juices of 1's and 0's from our laptops, and desktops, and to a lesser extent, our macs ;) all over the bloody floors of our bedrooms. And they should definately reopen Alcatraz for downloaders only. Cause what would be a better deterent than The Rock. Hell we could even get Sean Connery to beat us on a daily bassis for stealing his movies.
Anywhoo this is all just a load of bullshit that needs no further explanation as to why its retarded.
But may I atleast suggest that perhaps we should be more concernd with the real issues, such as massive corperations constantly screwing over the little people, or the constant cutbacks to our education so that only the rich can get a decent education. Maybe we'd care more about the law if we could READ! Or knew that we'd be able to support our families in the future and not have our lives ruined by some billionare who decided that they deserve the money more than the people who really do the work.
ah fuck it, its all retarded, im moving to Mars... oh wait, thats right, they keep cutting NASA's funding, and then wonder why the shuttle blows up.
I had some problems with people wanting more details about some of the stuff I posted.
A bit annoying if I made it up to start with and downright terrifying if it was something truthful.
I quite like the thing attributed to Dorothy Parker "I don't care what they say about me so long as it isn't true."
I can tell you all you need to know about drop bears and hoop snakes. And a whole bunch of things you'd rather you didn't know about sharks, and old fashioned methods for neutering male lambs, among other things. I do find it pays to have a number of icky facts available for recital to shut up people who want to know everything about me and what I'm up to.
speaking(writing) of fibs, I can't believe the continuous stream coming out of the mouths of our leaders. George says: "we were reluctant to go into this war" - SAY WHAT? He couldn't wait. Where are those weapons of mass destruction now? Saddam might as well use everything he's got right? Or surrender, so why isn't he???
There was more stuff that I stuck in one of the other replies. George and links Although trying to do a search on "USA Congress member felony" only gets them making more ways to commit felonies, not the actual personal breaches. I think for every new law enacted at least one should be repealed. And I'm not the only one who wants to use code for writing laws, ie something that is logically coherent enough to be decided by a computer not a judge, similar to those expert systems for assisting disease diagnosis.
and I wonder why I get called loquatious. Urk.
-- it must be true, it's on the internet.
[laughing] I'd be interested in the old-fashioned lamb neutering methods... and would you like a quick demo of the right way to neuter a cat? no need to find a cat; humans are done the same way. :)
I've seen what happens with stringently codified systems if grey areas or judgment calls are involved -- AKC decided to do that with breed standards a few years ago, and while the results are more consistent on paper, a lot of 'em no longer describe the breed they're supposed to be. (I dunno what the hell they DO describe, but it ain't right.) I doubt the legal system would benefit either -- after all, look what happened when "Three Strikes" took away a judge's ability to determine fitting punishment, vs. prescribed punishment.
I don't believe Bush was in a hurry to go to war; in fact, I think he held off as long as possible, first doing as much posturing and bluffing as possible, in the vain hope that Saddam would back down. And read Twirlip's post re the UN's own regulations re resolutions. Under the terms of this resolution, as UN members, the U.S. is legally *required* to take action against Iraq.
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
Like someone said, jail is for violent offenders that need to be removed from society, not for measly offenses like copyright infringement.
If the problem really is copyright infringement, why not just charge the kids what it would have cost them for all the original CDs they got songs from? Could get rather expensive very fast, most CDs only have one or two songs worth listening to, and they have to pay for the entire CD than a few thousand mp3s could easily be $10,000-$50,000.
I'm actually surprised he didn't consider that first, with all the state budget cuts he's suggesting taking more money from tax payers instead of making money from fines.
my karma will be here long after I'm gone
I can't find Twirlip's specific post on the subject. What I can find of Twirlip's seems very pro-USA Government and Bush. Including a link to a piece that I can't figure out is sarcastic or a alternate reality from the one I experience. Specifically something recent in Twirlip's journal points to Eagle7
for example: "Explain why you think 9/11 is more tied to Saudia Arabia than Iraq."
My explanation, all the hijackers that died were from Saudi Arabia and there is enough evidence that the project was funded out of Saudi Arabia that some ever hopefuls have funded a class action against some Saudi banks and high flyers. So far there has been no link estabished between Saddam Hussein and Al Quaeda, in fact given AQ's principles, they are more likely to be against Saddam than with him, and I think Saddam knew that.
BTW, I think Bush was impatient because he didn't seem to give a shit for 15 years what Saddam was up to and all of a sudden, they have to have a war before summer breaks and next year's elections. Why? And where are Saddam's weapons now?
And more fun, friendly fire and helicopters in sandstorms seem to be taking a higher toll than they will admit that the Iraqi's have got. I still can't figure out that kind of propaganda ie that it is better to say that "we shot our troops" than "Saddam's army shot our troops".
about the lambs. I really think you don't want to know. And cats - omg as long as you can disable their claws and still access the balls, tricky tricky. I wouldn't be game to try it. Actually I personally wouldn't do sheep either.
and pardon my southern ignorance but what is AKC? Interesting that they tried to take the subjectivity out of breed (of what? Sheep?) standards. And funny that it showed up inconsistencies in their standards. It would suggest a rewrite to me, and maybe an agreement to accept the subjectivity. (unless it is abused - like in Olympic ice skating - oops).
BTW I'd be interested to know which quadrant of the Polticial Compass you or twirlip score in. I came out in Ghandi's quadrant although a little further to the right. Something about being a capitalist pig that likes to look after the people who cannot look after themselves. Very feudal I suppose, but I'd rather hand over money to someone who asks for it politely than have it stolen from me by a mugger or house breaker...
And I wish Eagle7 would put more line breaks in.
-- it must be true, it's on the internet.
I knew there must be some rational people on Bush's side somewhere, so I find it very interesting discussing this with you. I think where we may differ is not so much the reasoning but our starting axioms, ie we believe different things to be true.
I thought what was reported here was the money trail for Al Quaeda lead straight back to Saudi, just as money trails for Israels support lead back to USA and some for IRA also lead to USA. And no it doesn't make all USA citizens terrorists. Or even the ones supplying the money, they might not support blowing up of civilians while they do support liberation and self government for a people.
Right now I have a hard time knowing what to believe from anyone but Bush is more difficult to believe because what he says so profoundly contradicts his actions, very Orwellian.
I don't understand why the "job" wasn't completed the first time in 1991. I have noticed that the other middle east countries have been fairly quiet on the subject, or perhaps that is just bias in reporting delivery. But they don't seem very supportive and I did hear that they did not reguard Saddam as a serious threat. I'd feel differently if Saddam had actually invaded somewhere this time or in the last 10 years, but he's only persecuted his own people.
He's not the only leader guilty of that. So what really scares me is "Who's next?". I wonder so long as they've got no oil perhaps they're safe but that would mean several African countries eg Nigeria and Angola could be in trouble.
Very good point about the freeway pileups. I wish I could find the stats about road deaths and other preventable deaths. Ie compare that to the trade tower deaths and where the hell are our priorities. Cars could be much safer than they are. Roads could be safer. Perhaps if the same money was invested in road safetly we'd save more lives than trying to fight terrorism.
I can't see how people can live normal lives and still prevent terrorism. You don't need a weapon of mass destruction. You just need a truck and some fertilizer or maybe dodgy beer, or perhaps a petrol truck. Imagine trying to prevent any of these things or all of them from being used perhaps...
The best way I can see to prevent people wanting to commit mass violence is to give them more hope, and more choice in how they live their lives. So they don't feel like a big statement or a little one (suicide) is their only solution. The more oppressive things get with governments trying to prevent people blowing things up, the more people are going to want to blow things up. There has to be a better way, or more likely, better ways, lots of ways.
The screwups seem to be predictable. Why are so many helicopters crashing. Why do they bother trying to get them airbourne when they cannot see anything. Or even bother with the close formations. I took a very long helicopter ride once to see land formations in Northern Australia, and the helicopter pilots were very careful about keeping a very very safe distance from everything. It was a bit disappointing because we didn't get a good view, but we didn't get to crash into a gorge wall either. You think these war pilots could take the conditions into account.
Democracy is the only form of government - hmm the devil is in the detail here. quality of candidates being a starting point
Hmm your comment was so long I can only see half of it.
Kennel club. I'm currently baby sitting my family's decrepit ancient kelpie/healer cross. She used to be so lively and now she sleeps more than a cat. And she's deaf and fairly blind so we can't walk her without the comfort of a lead. Ok the sheep thing used to involve teeth, but now involves rubber bands, and they usually put one around the tail at the same time. Lambs tails in oz get docked to reduce the chance of fly strike.
Economics, not a subject I have studied. Everyone should have money, isn't that socialist? I think everyone should have food, shelter, he
-- it must be true, it's on the internet.
You are a cunt rag.