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Red Flag Linux: Real, and Reviewed
Over at NewsForge (NewsForge is part of OSDN, as is Slashdot), Roblimo has posted his impressions of the long-awaited, much-ridiculed Red Flag Linux (English version). It may not be a big seller outside of the Chinese-speaking world (despite the available English-language install), but it's not a hoax, and it's available as an ISO for download. Update from Roblimo: I did not write the NewsForge Red Flag review. Matt Michie deserves all credit for this excellent work.
more to feed the machine that is the chinese government. Its pretty sad how much they isolate themseves on the tech front. While the DMCA is bad enough this (great firewall of china, this, ect) is much worse.
Carpe meam simiam!
Why is this so contraversial? Does this perticular distro go through the hands of the Chinese govt or something?
For reasons I couldn't determine, Red Flag was installing slower than Tux on a Sunday evening after gorging himself with fish.
We need better jokes.
--------
Bleah! Heh heh heh... BLEAH BLEAH!!! Ha ha ha ha...
Unlike a Red Hat install, I was never prompted to create a user or set a root password. I had visions of having to crack my own installation to even login. I tentatively typed in root, and wondered if I could guess what a Chinese developer would set as a default password, when I was presented with a root prompt!
That's right, they don't set a root password, and seem to expect users will be running as root right from the start. That's surely not the best way to introduce a newbie into best practices.
ObDisclaimer: This is certainly not intended as flamebait, although it will probably be modded so.
Given the mindset of a totalitarian government -- that is to say, all ideas and possessions are ultimately the property of the oligarchy (or in China's case the gerontocracy) -- doesn't it seem logical that a default install for an OS endorsed by the government to be open to the world by default?
Seriously, if you want to be able to access any system in your nation, and you know the average user doesn't know thing one about security, this sort of tactic would be on page 1 of Information Control for Dummies.
Or this could just be me being paranoid again.
They that would sacrifice their
it is safe to say:
right
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
Perhaps a better slogan would be:
"1000 million Chinese can't choose otherwise"
At least they aren't running TurboLinux *shudder*
Great, 1000 Million Chinese to contend with on the mirrors. Download times are going to hell.. Guess Maybe we should all stay away from this distribution to avoid the traffic jams.
Sure, the Chinese Government supports this OS, but do you really think the people will run it? I love linux as much as the next guy, I have a debian machine at home and at work we have linux clusters, but in all honestly I think that the Chinese end user will still go and pirate Windows at the end of the day. I mean, it looks glitzier, and all the other kiddies are using it. Hopefully at least a few of them will learn to love linux though, and so this still will increase the userbase somewhat. Plus, a good part of the government might use it as well in China.
Or something... I'm confused...
Are they really going to jump all over this? China is one of largest offenders of piracy. Why would they care whether an OS is "free"? I can't see the whole nation switching to this, even though I love linux...
Um, this is my sig.
anyone happen to find this?
When encryption is outlawed, ou++1!@(93j++js-d9298yIUH(*Y24JKB!~
(oh wait...)
now they are screwed either way: go after people who pirate Windows and push a big part of the NON Chinese communist chinese speaking community toward Linux, or do nothing and hope that the widespread pirating they had been trying to stifle is now their ONLY hope against an installed user base of 200-1000 million.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts."
!!!Hacked By Chinese!!!
It looks like the rf24.iso is unreachable via the link provided. I belive that http://ftp.cqu.edu.cn/linux/iso/rf24.iso is the same release.
This tells me one of two things: one, the Red Flag people just took a base Red Hat distro (7.0? I run Debian, so I don't know when Red Hat first introduced kernel 2.4.2), s/Hat/Flag, and put it on the web. Two, they started with a Red Hat distro long ago, but took a long time to make whatever modifications they needed to and did not bother to update the kernel and programs. Both scenarios say volumes about the people who work on Red Flag. I mean, there are distros assembled by a handful of people that are more up-to-date than this! What are they doing, reading
I would be really interested if someone would do a security audit on this. Does Red Flag call home to Big Brother?
:Peter
:-)
From the Red Flag Linux home page:
ControLinux finds application in lottery machine's operating system.
From Roblimo's review of Red Flag:
Unlike a Red Hat install, I was never prompted to create a user or set a root password. I had visions of having to crack my own installation to even log in. I tentatively typed in root, and wondered if I could guess what a Chinese developer would set as a default password, when I was presented with a root prompt!
That's right, they don't set a root password, and seem to expect users will be running as root right from the start.
Hopefully they have better security measures in place on their "other" distributions!
That's right, they don't set a root password, and seem to expect users will be running as root right from the start. That's surely not the best way to introduce a newbie into best practices.
Two words: CODE RED!
Red Flag Linux is made by Chinese Communists. Open Source software is not communist. The intriguing thing about Red Flag Linux is that it has been packaged specifically to suit the IT needs of the People's Republic of China. I know a little Kanji (which is called Hanzi in Chinese, but I don't know that) because I watch anime, but I'm going to install the English language version, because it seems like the least appropriate but most expedient way to review a Chinese distribution of Linux.
The installer is slow. Incidentally, I'm running it in a VMware window. I wish I knew why the installer is so slow! Now the installer has crashed! I bet I could bring my system back up without rebooting if I knew how.
This looks like Red Hat! I'll poke around in the menus. This looks like Red Hat! I'll use it for another five minutes, and then finalize my opinion. This looks like Red Hat!
I don't know how good the software is, and I don't read much of Chinese, but the front page definitely is quite an artistic design! With all those horses and stuff, it is *so different* from western style!
Maybe someone here who can actually read Chinese should review this.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Those who give an 'informative' moderation should first click the link to see whether or not it actually leads to an ISO of the software in question...
(this one doesn't, and the 'Red Flag Linux' link at the top of his page leads only to an Amazon.com 'honor system' donation page. I see no indication that the person receiving these donations has anything to do with the development or distribution of Red Flag Linux).
does the default inital apache install include an index page that says "hacked by chinese?"
Disclaimer: I do not work at, nor own, Wal-Mart stock. I just find this fascinating.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Why does it say: Roblimo has posted his impressions of the ...
This article was written by some dude named Matt Michie. I thought Roblimo was some guy named Robin Miller. WTF?
The internet ready microwave oven is well on it's way to going in my shopping cart.
... the NEW icon.
I also like the way the "NEW" icon on their homepage is a hyperlink to
Slashdot? Oh, I just read it for the articles.
After Win XP, it's clear that it will only get more and more difficult to get a good warez install of a Microsoft OS. (I can't say that I'd like to buy a 1-billion-seat license either...)
I have come up a few other players in this arena, competition is good. of course ;-)
btw, the one reviewed in the newsforge.com is 2.4 desktop. version 3.0 is coming (sorry, no more English and Traditional Chinese installation screens, only Simplified Chinese is available) and I've tried the beta CD, quite OK for normal use but some installation gliches.
Also... a Chinese-enabled desktop is possible (just click "Chinese" during install..) by the normal Debian/Mandrake/RedHat CDs.
> Since Red Flag Linux is becoming the official software standard for China, it is safe to say:
...''
> ``1000 million Chinese can't be wrong
I know it was a joke, but I doubt that 1% of that figure has enough money to buy a computer.
When setting up our office in China last year, we decided to give Red Flag a try, as oppossed to using Mandrake (our new Sysadmin thought it might be easier for staff to learn). The idea appealed to us, because Mandrake requires a lot of tweaking to get Chinese input and display to work correctly. As all new employees had never used anything but Windows, we decided to install four distros on four different boxen and see which one they took to better:
1. Turbo Linux (has good Chinese support out of the box)
2. RedHat linux tweaked to support Chinese input, etc.
3. Mandrake linux tweaked to support Chinese input, etc.
4. RedFlag linux
To cut matters short, all workstations are now running Mandrake 8.1. For applications we are using the latest Chinese build of OpenOffice. Staff seemed to like Mandrake best, and it seemed to be most stable on the desktop. We share printers, disks, scanners, cameras accross the network, and once configured we have a very stable and FREE OS on every single desktop.
RedFlag was just a little too buggy (all gnome and kde config bugs, we did not play with it too long, as Mandrake was stable from install). We have not tried the latest version of Redflag, BUT, I have told our in house IT guys to keep looking at it.
One of our IT guys has been to the RedFlag main development center. It is government funded, but penetration in the Chinese market is low, because one can pick up a pirated copy of Win98 just about on any other street corner for just over 1$. The government is hoping that RedFlag will be a suitable option once they really crack down on piracy, and MS starts to bleed the country for OS and productivity software license fees.
The key for linux on the desktop in China is the same as the rest of the world--productivity applications. C'mon Open Office, we are all cheering for you!
Real men don't need signitures!!!
Maybe I just haven't read a lot of distro reviews, but it struck me as odd, even unfair that Roblimo spent so much time whining about VMware crashing. What the heck does that have to do with the quality of the product in question?
"All 2002 model year Toyotas have serious engine problems. Also, I urinated in the gas tanks of all cars tested."Then he goes on to nmap his virtual machine, then asks what port 1030 is. Before nmap(1), there was netstat(8). Read about it
And timothy, unless I'm mistaken, the article details Matt Michie's impresions, not Roblimo's.I understand where you are coming from. But consider this:
America is the most oppressive country is HUMAN HISTORY. They are agressively attacked and killed more people through nuclear (JAPAN), orange agent (VIETNAM), BOMBS/MISSILES (BRAZIL, NICARAGUA, BOSNIA, CHINA, KOREA, PHILLIPINES, SOUTH AFRICA, MIDDLE EAST...basically nearly all countries of the world...please look it up, and remember they're people not numbers), and SANCTIONS (1.5 million dead in IRAQ, 5000 children die from prevental causes due to the sanctions a day)....
If this is not oppression, I don't know what is. And the worst consequence is that you did not consider this. This is oppression, not freedom.
It is oppression from the truth, the feelings and situations these people are put through.
I don't mean to 'nag' but please remember that no other country in the world has ever caused as much damage.
Not to mentioned the exportation of warefare and drugs...
... some of you may not believe all this... How can "uncle sam" fool you or how can this be true.
IT IS
At least they did not call it one of the following:
1) Bloody Tiananmen Square Linux 2.0
2) Red Star Linux
3) Linux CodeRed
4) Mao and Red Catsup on a Linux Patty
5) Chinaman Linix
Ever need an online dictionary?
Major Linux Innovations in Communist Asia
/
PYONGYANG, NORTH KOREA -- Following closely on the heels of the recent successes in the Chinese information industry, known to have invoked advanced commands such as:
cd
find . | sed -e s/Hat/Flag/g
the North Korean Ministry of Information and Technology has announced its own groundbreaking Linux distribution bearing the state's official endorsement - Plebian GNU/Linux.
Also believed to be in the pipeline are other state sponsored distributions, including Yellow Snake, Handbrake, RuSE, and Blackware Linux.
http://www.linux.cu/
There's 10 types of people in this world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Ok, as far as I can tell, this wasn't written by Roblimo, but by Matt Michie.
;-)
:)
Also, I noticed this sentence to be a bit odd - "...although one thing I immediately noted was that they included Xine, which plays DVDs, DivX, AVI, and other media..." I find it odd that the author didn't note that, probably more importantly, Xine is a great VCD player. My understanding is that the Chinese pirate market is based very heavily on VCD's - I suspect having an Xine icon on the desktop is indicative of the extent of the VCD influence.
I would definitely like to hear what everyone's opinion on the NMAP results are, as I'm not knowledgable enough to know which are vulnerable and which aren't. More curiously, though, I wonder if the NMAP results were localized to the 192 network via some firewalling script, or if an external IP would have gotten the same results.
I also want to note that nmap'ing was probably superfluous, in the circumstances - all that was really needed to crash the system is logging in as a passwordless root on telnet, which is an extraordinarily wide open hole.
Then again, I imagine the english-only version would be expected to be run mostly outside of the People's Republic. Perhaps the localized version would indeed come with a root password. Hmm... Insidious plot?
I think that this story should definitely be followed up by an analysis of the localized version. Too bad I'm a mono-lingual individual. (Shh, don't tell my University or they won't let me graduate!
>> 1000 million Chinese can't be wrong
> I know it was a joke, but I doubt that 1% of that figure has enough money to buy a computer.
However, 10 million users is still a respectable chunk of mindshare, if not market share.
"All your user base are belong to us." -- Mao
The Mandarin Chinese word "mao1" means "cat"; look it up here
Will I retire or break 10K?
Haha @ "Global Stallmanism," and is Global Gatesism any better?
Actually that quote from Khrushchev, "Whether you like it our not, history is on our side. We will bury you." Is considered inaccurate and is the fault of our translators. The real quote (considered by some) is, "Whether you like it our not, history is on our side. We will leave you in the dust!" Stating that the Soviet Union was advancing farther than us in technology. Which could be true because of the Soviet's more advanced rocket technology and the fact that they were the first in space.
And IMHO China isn't Communist, it's State Capitalist (much like America was under FDR)
From where I currently sit in the capital of "Red China", there are at least a half dozen distros readily available at the local stores -- Red Flag, Linpus, Red Hat, Mandrake -- and Red Flag isn't even the most popular of them. And with CLE (Chinese Language Extensions, currently at version 1.0) nearly any distro can be converted to Chinese.
And back home (Taiwan) where Linpus reigns supreme, Red Flag barely registers. In fact, it wasn't till recently that it even appeared on store shelves, even though it's been available on the mainland for several years.
Nevertheless, the OS of choice in China, even in government circles, remains the Windows family, which is a readily available and as free-as-in-beer (read: widely pirated) as Linux.
I am saying this at my own free will, and I can assure that nobody is forcing me to do anything. I know that you suspect that the Chinese Government has coded backdoors into Red Flag, because of the fact that the TCP fingerprint cannot be identified. I use SuSE 7.3, and NMAP can't identify it either. It's not the fact that there is some problem with the OS that dissallows NMAP to identify the system, but the real problem is that your version of NMAP does not include a maching description for that particular TCP fingerprint. Plus, I really don't think that the Chinese Government actually codes backdoors into Red Flag for the following reasons - For one, Red Flag, as you even implied in your own article, is not really directly affiliated with the Chinese government, and I think that the character that claims that the Chinese government is "muderous and opressive" is far to extreme to be true. I know that I'm also opinionated becuase I'm actually a citizen of that very nation. Secondly, Coding backdoors into an open souce operating system is pretty difficult to pull off. In the case of Microsoft, it's easy them to do, becuase they keep their source secret and away from public eyes. Because of these reasons and many more, I strongly think that you're too prejudice toward Communist regiemes, and I can almost assure you that the government is not trying to code backdoors into Red Flag.
Actually, the U.S. has almost zero net carbon emissions. If the EU and Japan merely matched the per-capita net emissions of the U.S., it would go far further than Kyoto in reducing greenhouse emissions. What Kyoto is is the developed nations of Europe and Asia saying that the U.S. has the responsibility, not to emitting zero net carbon, but to serve as a free carbon sink for Western Europe and Japan.
Well, I'm sorry, people of Europe and Asia, but if your countries won't limit themselves to producing only the amount of carbon your countries can absorb, how dare you suggest that my country, which does, is irresponsible? Why should I pay for your inability to clean up after yourselves?
How do I contact someone in the Chinese
government about FreeBSD? I hope it's
not too late to set the course straight
on a real operating system?
Most Chinese support the idea of stealing software. Hence, to this day, mainland China, Hong Kong, and Taiwan collectively are considered the software piracy capital of the world.
When a Chinese can get Windows for free, why would he get Linux?
One of the strongest arguments for Linux is that it is free. Hence, Linux has been gaining market share against Windows and Solaris in the West -- particularly, the USA.
The Chinese just do not have the same notion of right and wrong that we Americans have.
Web censorship implemented in the kernel.
Blocklists updated by periodical hits to the central Chinese Government servers.
-- In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was UNSIGNED, and the main(){} was without form and void...
You've hit the issue square on the head.
Chinese values are fundamentally different from American values. Chinese believe that stealing intellectual property and that cheating is perfectly acceptable. Hence, mainland China -- together with Hong Kong and Taiwan -- is the software piracy capital of the world.
Linux in China will never have the same level of popularity that Linux has in the USA. Why? Windows and other commercial operating systems (OSes) are free -- free in the sense that they are stolen/pirated in most cases.
This state of affairs should not surprise anyone. When the Chinese members of the Kuomintang party in Taiwan (back in the 1970s) sent their kids to live permanently in the USA, these same Chinese told everyone that human rights are not necessary in Taiwan province. A similar bunch of hypocrites are now in the Chinese Communist Party (CCP). They send their kids to the USA and send billions (that's right, billions) of dollars out of mainland China and into the USA so that their kids can live well here in the center of the free world. Meanwhile, those Chinese members of the CCP and their kids (who fight with tooth and nail to stay in the USA) insist that human rights are not necessary in mainland China.
You tell me what the hell is wrong with Chinese values. Chinese stealing intellectual property and pirating software is just the tip of the putrid crap in Chinese society.
First they support linux and now look what's going on!
m an chu.jpg
http://www.ilovebacon.com/noway/images/022601fu
They have way too much influence here!
lettuce, china, beep boop! read the details here!
I've had one of these bad-boys in my grubby mits for over a year. A friend brought it back from Hong Kong.
The funniest thing is Tux on the cover carrying the red flag. eerie....
I tend to think of China as the dream of Mussolini: the corporate state....
Actually, I guess we're both right. FDR was very similar to Mussolini and Hitler. Might have something to do with why I consider him one of the worst presidents of this century.
That comment about "Control Linux" cracks me up. What is even funnier is the fact that most Chinese support the policies of Beijing.
Remember the battle for the site of the 2008 Olympics? The vast majority of Chinese students (from mainland China, Hong Kong, and Taiwan) in the USA signed petitions to hold the Olympics in Beijing, China. Meanwhile, ragtag groups of plain-folk Americans -- some having ties to human-rights organizations like Amnesty International -- signed petitions condemning the idea of giving the 2008 Olympics to Beijing; plain-folk Americans are horrified at the idea of using a sporting event glorifying the humanity of all peoples to whitewash the 50 years of murder and torture committed by Chinese against Tibetans, etc.
What's wrong with this image? Most of these Chinese students will fight with tooth and nail to stay in the United States of America after graduation. Yet, they throw their support to the human-rights abusing Beijing government.
Given that the Chinese will discard human decency with such indifference, why would the Chinese have any qualms whatsoever about stealing intellectual property in general or specifically pirating software?
I would have tested the Chinese version, because I would assume I could fine my way through a standard RedHat install without the real text. It would be interesting to see just how much of it still remain English.
If American values are not great, then why the hell do hordes of Chinese students (from mainland China, Hong Kong, and Taiwan) fight with tooth and nail to stay in the USA? Many of the mainland Chinese students fighting to stay in the USA are the children of members of the Chinese Communist Party.
Come on. Chinese values are crap. They created a society in which nobody wants to live.
The irony is that the very same Chinese students fighting to stay in the USA support the nationalistic brutal policies of the Beijing government. In the very USA that supports freedom of religion (including the religion of the Falun Gong), Chinese students will attend anti-Falun-Gong meetings and rallies held in the USA (!) and partially funded by the Chinese government.
In theory, if China got a hold of some Windows code, stuck it in RFLinux and released it (made it available to us, even). Could anyone do anything about it? They have nukes, dammit. Nukes!
Monstromart: Where shopping is a baffling ordeal
dont clikc the link, it opens a gay porno pic in full screen, fucking troll.. someone mad that post down
[...snip...]/ 2211255) that you
expressed distaste for "Red Flag Linux", the version of linux sponsored
by the Chinese government. They quote you as saying:
While I can somewhat understand your view, it seems dangerous to drag left/right-wing politics into Open Source, surely the more people who adopt the Open Source philosophy the better, irrespective of how much you might disagree with their politics. For example, if the Chinese government were to express a desire to adopt the ideals of the Libertarian Party, would you make an argument like: Clearly, such an attitude would be deeply flawed. Regardless of how much you dislike a group, surely their adoption of something with which you think is a good thing should be encouraged?I was somewhat surprised to see in a recent NewsForge article (http://www.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=02/02/21
If you disagree, I would be interested in your response...
For a 1-month period starting from February 28, 1947, the Chinese massacred 28,000 Taiwanese. The Chinese arbitrarily shot, beheaded, and castrated them.
Most Chinese view the 228 massacre as unfortunate but necessary in order to re-introduce Chinese values in Taiwan.
Very few societies even remotely approach the carnage of Chinese society.
Everyone is dissing off this Red Flag Linux for who knows what reasons. Because it's Chinese and Chinese are still the Communist Ogre who eats our babies and is supposedly bases on a model of society which poses a danger to our wonderful system where those already rich make even more money? Why do we not see people dissing off Red Hat because the US has shot down an Iranian passenger plane? Because when installing a Chinese distribution the reviewer chose to install an English version instead? Why? Someone mind telling us the reason? Even if it were a crappy distribution, maybe constructive comments would help better than some off-beat jokes about communism.
Think about what this really means though. The Popular OS right now is of course Windows. Linux is really advanced operating system, encouraging REAL knowledge of how things work, and understanding of many aspects of computing. By embracing it as they have really its almost forcing a smarter nation in some aspects. Consider where their youth will be growing up utilizing a linux environment compared to America lets say. I dunno I think they be on to something, kinda wish we were on to it first...
First, the nmap results don't mean a damn thing. It shows that the system probably has more running than a secure install should, which is common even to my beloved Debian. The inability to characterize the OS TCP/IP stack just means that the reviewer is a moron. I've got three machines, one with a 2.2.17 kernel, two with different 2.4 (.13 and .4) kernels. The one running 2.4.4 was identified, the other two weren't. He's trying to suggest some insane conspiracy theory of a TCP/IP stack with back doors hacked into it based on complete non-evidence.
Second, telnet doesn't allow you to log in directly as root. You have to log in as a non-root user first and then su (without password... sheeshe). Not that no-password root isn't insanely stupid, but presuming that it doesn't even create a normal user account, this is actually -more- secure, at least in terms of telnet exploitablity. Weird, huh?
Third, having your "killer app" right on the desktop makes a lot of sense, no? It's like the Office2000 icon right in the quick-launch bar of win2k (ugh, have to use that pure shite at work for about 20 min of my day -- such is the pain of porting software to linux! Thank God and Red Hat for Cygwin).
Fourth, you're absolutely right that there should have been a review of the localized version. The whole review was a farce, made worse by the reviewer being an idiot.
The enemies of Democracy are
It was windows which was "!!!Hacked By Chinese!!!"
Actually that quote from Khrushchev, "Whether you like it our not, history is on our side. We will bury you." Is considered inaccurate and is the fault of our translators. The real quote (considered by some) is, "Whether you like it our not, history is on our side. We will leave you in the dust!"
"Ya vam pokazhyu kuzkinu mat!" is a fairly common Russian idiom. It literally means, "I'll show you Kuzma's mother!" Like many idioms, its literal meaning is, well, kinda meaningless. But it's used pretty much the same way as the English phrase, "I'll dance on your grave," meaning I'll outlive or outlast you.
Khrushchev's "My vam pokazhim kuzkinu mat!" can't be literally translated, but it can be idiomatically translated as "We will bury you." The translation was not faulty.
The interpretation, however, has been pretty loose. Many have interpreted "We will bury you" as a threat of harm. In fact, it means, "We'll be around longer than you, and we'll attend your funeral."
The oft-quoted "we will leave you in the dust" simply has no basis in fact.
In other words, ya vam pokazhyu kuzkinu mat.
Anarchists and Communists, confused again. It has played over and over again.
Whenever there is a revolution, there are usually two principle revolutionary sides, Anarchists and Communists.
Both have similarities, and both have sharp differences. Generally, they both have socialist ends. But they differ on the nature of government: The Communists want strong central control. The Anarchists want deeply diffused democratic control.
The Free Software / Open Source movement is a case example of working Anarchy. Free Software developers are generally anti-authoritarian, and believe that the people doing the work call the shots. It's generally socialist, in the sense of sharing (but not in the Marx dictatorship sense). Work is done by a series of agreements and shared interest. Many are motivated to get particular things done, or out of a sense of solidarity. There is no ruler that can tell you what to do. Decisions are generally based on a consensus, but there are a few Linus Torvalds, and consessions made for expediency. The work has no chain of command, rather, it works by confederation. For example, there is the overall Open Source/Free Software movement. (We can draw humerous/interesting comparisons with the CNT/FAIR, respectively; One is more practically based, the other more ideologically based.) Above the OS/FS organization (in a certain sense), there is the KDE project. Above that platform lives the KOffice project. Above that lives the KWord, KSpread, and Kivio projects. I imagine that within those projects, there are other projects. And there are documentation projects, and usability projects, and they interact between projects, and they all work together. This is an Anarchist society, with minimal rulers and ruled. It is almost unthinkable that a member of the KDE organizing team would command a member of the KSpread team to do some particular thing, and that thing be done because of "orders from above". This is not to say that people don't argue and strategise and haggle; They do. But overall, the whole thing works. The operating system is a little "poor", and has a sort of "poor man's operating system" feel to it, but this is more than made up in the fun of it.
A communist vision of OS/FS would be state control. Flip the pyramid. OpenSource/FreeSoftware as command structure.
When you hear people saying, "I don't understand, why doesn't the OpenSource community devote most of it's effort to XYZ", where XYZ is something like better graphics, or device support, or something that they see as critical (and could quite likely use a lot more work), they are assuming that the OpenSource/FreeSoftware world works according to a command structure, and that we are working on it because we feel like suplicating ourselves to some "great cause." The reality is that we are not supplicating ourselves to some "great cause". Rather, we are doing it because we want to. This is Libertarian (the 1890's version of the word, which was anarcho-socialist, rather than the modern, anarco-capitalist meaning of the word) beliefs incarnate and applied: By acting on our natural impulses, we can do good. Note that RMS and the GNU foundation has focused on the same. When people assume that we are command structured (authoritarian), but also working for the good of our fellows (socialist), they assume that we are Communist (state socialism). Rather, we are socialist libertarians. Or at least, speaking for what I see of the OS/FS movement, it is based and functions within socialist libertarian parameters. (Much has been written about the anarcho-capitalist ideas that many geeks like.)
This is not the first time that Anarchists have been confused with Communists. If you read the history of the Spanish Civil War, it's usually described as "The Facists vs. The Communists". But there was a third side, and a very powerful side at that. Several towns belonged to the Anarchists, and the Anarchists helped fight (but ultimately, defeated by the German & I believe Italy as well Fascists, commanded by Franco). The Anarchist revolution was very real, and quite extraordinary. But because the Anarchists were socialists, the war is usually just "simplified" into "The Facists vs. The Communists".
Now you know, and... {:)}=
This image from the Red Flag Linux English home page (just to the left of the word News) is the same colour layout as the Microsoft logo, rotated 90 degrees clockwise.
Coincidence?
I'm willing to bet 50 bucks that they've got some kind of filter, spyware, or censor program in the software somewhere; If the source code is out somebody should try looking for something like that.
Well, I can't seem to just cut and paste the results from netcraft so I'll just put the links here and let you nice folks to check it out for yourselves....
Redflag's Netcraft SSL Report.
Microsoft's Netcraft SSL Report
Couple of interesting things to note...redflags's SSL certificate already expired long ago... also, I am not very aware of exportation laws or what is availble overseas, but are the reports that "RC4 with MD5", does that mean it can do 128 bit?
Also, isn't it intersting to note that the certificate is signed by test server from "Somwhere" from "AU"? hehehe
There's something about trusting my distro with the Chinese. I'd hate to think about "1000 Million" red Chinese being wrong...
Actually that user looks like just like me.
I've got a dual G4 450 though, not the slow old iMac.
Red Flag Linux is typical communist GPL junk.
- Kaos games and encryption systems developer
Do you mean backdoors like http://www.hick.org/goatse/ ?
Butt, seriously. This Red Flag Linux will be under communist GPL except for the secret backdoor for the Ministry of Truth.
Red Flag Linux is free as in communism, all property is public property but you don't have free speech.
I think this will be tied into the Cisco Chinese Censorship Firewall in a small part of the kernel that does the censoring on the user's computer.
That would free up censor processing at the chinese center for internet censorship.
- Kaos games and encryption systems developer
The difference between the two is compultion. That's the same as between any other "system" and Anarchy.
Everyone already cooperates and compromises every day. You deal with the people you wish to deal with, in the ways you wish to deal with them, or you ignor them and go on your way.
That is the essence of Anarchy!
Communist, Socialist, Democrat, Republican, all depend on FORCE to achieve their ends. Each and ever one of them differs only in the ways they rationalize the use of force to achieve the ends which the people in power want. They are mearly different ends which all use the same means.
To those who equate "Anarchy" and "Chaos", I would suggest a few of the articles and texts on the Ludwig von Mises institute web site until you can understand how they're fundimentally different. Human Action may be a little difficult, but do give it a try.
Bob-
The Ludwig von Mises Institute. The reasoning individuals economics
What if someone gets a virus or worm on their microwave while they're cooking rice?
Yuck, I had a worse thought: what if your microwave ran windows and had a fatal error while cooking your dinner?
Press Control Alt Delete to recook your meal?
- Kaos games and encryption systems developer
What was the Application doing in the chinese lottery?
Congratulations comrade Ren Falling Dong!
You have won the Gimp of the chinese lottery!
Congratulations comrade Ren Falling Dong!
You have won a copy of Red Flag Linux and the Little Red Book user manual!
- Kaos games and encryption systems developer
While the Chinese government could readily be labeled authoritarian, it hardly qualifies as totalitarian.
To begin with, like the United States, the Chinese government is a constitutional government -- something which is antithetical to a truly totalitarian regime. Like its American counterpart, the Chinese constitution proscribes and limits the powers and reach of the government. Conversely, a totalitarian government has no limits (hence the name 'totalitarian'). Americans may take issue with some of the particulars of socialist rule in China, but in fact the Chinese system has more in common with American- (or British-) style government than it does with truly totalitarian regimes, from a parliamentarian law-making body, to an independent justice system, to democratic elections (yes, the Chinese DO freely elect their local officials).
The Chinese enjoy nearly every individual right the American does: freedom of speech, of worship, of belief, of assembly, to own property, privacy, to engage in business. Yes, China limits most of these rights, but neither are they unlimited in Western countries (as every American knows, for example, freedom of speech does not include the right to cry 'Fire!' in a crowded movie house, nor does freedom of the press include the right to slander). The difference is not that Americans possess individual rights and the Chinese don't, but merely that Americans object to some of the ways in which China limits and circumscribes those rights. (The converse is also true. For example, most of the world objects to the fact that America still puts people to death, something considered outside of America to be a violation of the most basic human liberty, the right to life.)
Neither does the Chinese government seek to control all ideology, or every aspect of its citizens' lives, as a truly totalitarian state is wont to do. It is only those who make themselves an enemy of the state (admittedly, as measured by the state itself) who are the subject of "oppressive" measures. In fact, the vast majority of China's 1.3 billion people are left in peace to lead lives which are, on balance, quite free of government control or meddling. I have freely discussed democracy over tea in the tea houses of Shandong Province. I can attend church regularly. My in-laws have a thriving franchise business in Jiangsu Province which is, on the whole, subject to less governmental interference than it would be in, say, San Francisco. To list but three examples.
I am not a Chinese citizen. As a resident of Taiwan I have no love for Beijing, nor any desire to live under the Chinese government's rule. But given the choice between living in China and, say, Iraq, a Talibanesque state, or even fascist Italy, I'd choose China in a heartbeat.
Now, to keep this post on-topic, many people in this forum are confused about Red Flag Linux. Red Flag is NOT the Chinese government. The company which produces Red Flag Linux is a private entity, neither owned nor controlled by the government. The only associations Red Flag Linux has with the government in China is that A) it is partially funded by a venture capital firm which itself is partially funded by the government, and B) has been selected as the "official" operating system of the government -- a rather hollow honour at best, considering that the vast majority of the government still conducts its business on Windows-based machines.
Translation: we're morally superior to everyone else.
I have never met this kind of Chinese.
Not suprising as it's highly unlikely you've met any Chinese at all.
Most Chinese ... do not give a hoot about the suffering of other people.
You, of course, having personally met "most Chinese" are therefore uniquely qualified to definitively pronounce on what "most Chinese" care about. I understand why this was posted anonymously. I wouldn't want my name associated with such blatantly bigoted trash, either.
No native man pages + default login as root could spell trouble. heh.
Anyways, thanks for the info. I think we should give the chinese linux distros as much goodwill as possible. A bigger install base is a Good Thing.
When in doubt, have a man come through a door with a gun in his hand.
Aside from anything else, two things stand out like the two towers of Minas Tiras and Minas Morgul: (1) it defaults to having a password-less root login and (2) it is running a telnet server.
Uh oh, things are going to be taking a turn for the worse regarding both spam and DOS attacks. This will be even greater incentive to firewall off the netblock assigned to China.
Actually Khrushchev used the "Kuzkina mat" expression in a speech after Power's spyplane was grounded. Accidentally at that very time Soviet scientists were working on the 100MTon thermonuclear bomb, which they started calling after that "Kuzkina mat".
Regarding "We will bury you", in Russian Khrushchev's words translated literally meant exactly that ("My vas zakopaem" - We you will_bury). But you are correct in that context they meant: "We'll be around longer than you, and we'll attend your funeral."
Future Wiki -- If you don't think about the future, you cannot have one.
- By Matt Michie -
Honest inquiry: Is Matt Michie aka Roblimo, or did the /. editor make a mistake?
Not reading many Kanji...
Not coincidentally, most Chinese don't, either. This is hardly surprising, however, given that Kanji is in fact a Japanese script (albeit, with its origins in Chinese ideography).
I know another meaning for the word mat, isnt it the four letter word that begins with F?
Like "Mat tvoya mat?"
If you're not a Liberal in your 20's, then you have no heart.If you're still a Liberal in your 30's you have no brain.
Sometimes, seeing is believing. In this case, reading is believing.
The article to which I am responding is written by a pro-China Chinese in Taiwan. You remember Taiwan. It's the place with the Chinese government that has manipulated the American nation into believing that Taiwan wants to be independent. So, we Americans give Taiwan billions of dollars of modern weaponry.
We should stop this nonsense. We should terminate the sales of weapons in order to save our own necks. Most Chinese in Taiwan support mainland China.
Take a gander at these facts about the Chinese in Taiwan.
Finally, let's address one of the weird claims by this pro-China Chinese from Taiwan. Many Chinese justify and support Beijing's suppressing human rights. Other Chinese, like this pro-China Chinese from Taiwan, claim that China honors human rights. That's a new tactic. (side note: Strangely, most Chinese -- including the children of members of the Chinese Communist Party -- fight with tooth and nail to stay in the United States of America.)
According to Amnesty International, China is a society that does not honor human rights. Who do we believe? A Chinese who does not support the idea that human rights are absolute and universal. Or. Amnesty International.
Frankly, I'll throw my support to Amnesty International.
By the way, one hell of a lot of Chinese play this game of calling the Falun Gong a political organization and, then, justifying their support of Beijing brutalizing and killing members of the Falun Gong. Guess what? Amnesty International correctly condemns this brutality and says that the followers of the Falun Gong should not be persecuted for their beliefs.
Getting back to the issue of "Red Flag Linux". Boycott it. Do not ever buy it. You will see many of you Chinese colleagues flocking to this product; they will even brag about it. They do not give a damn about the Chinese brutality in Tibet. But you, as an American (as a person of conscience), should not buy this product. You tell the Chinese what it means to be an American.
YOU ARE ABOUT TO DOWNLOAD THE COMMUNIST VIRUSS
fight comminist whit George Bush:We can still bomb them.
Pedantic comments aside, the Japanese Kanji script not only originated in china, but continues to be semantically compatible with the Chinese character set. (e.g. the "sword" character in Kanji is the same character that means "sword" in Chinese)
"Einstein argued that [...] God is not capricious or arbitrary. No such faith comforts the software engineer." ~ Brooks
netcraft shows that the site redflag-linux.com is running Black Cat Linux, which was a Russian distro based on Red Hat but now joined ASP Linux. Hell the redflag site even runs something called "rus/PL29.4" which I assume is Russian module for Apache.
The American justice system is itself broken. The number of innocent people being *executed* - when capital cases have the most oversight - is disturbing enough. Just think how many innocent people are being imprisoned, particularly if they can't muster funds for a defense.
I think that the Chinese behaviour in Tibet was unconscionable and the occupation of Tibet should end, that Tienamen was barbaric, and that they are being repressive towards the Falun Gong. The American "Tibet," of course, occurred in the 19th century, in the settlement of the west, the war against Mexico, and the doctrine of "Manifest Destiny," so we feel that the US today isn't as culpable. But I daresay that a case could be made that, in day to day terms, their system of justice, as a rule, is fairer than the US system, that fewer true innocents suffer.
I bet many people are wondering if there are backdoors in this distribution...
What we should really worry about is Chinese Lantern.
And before any of you start ranting about using a "communist distribution", it's time you realised that China is more a state-capitalist system.
Yob' t'voyu mat, Amerikanski
Ya ponimayu po-ruski, moy droog!
If you're not a Liberal in your 20's, then you have no heart.If you're still a Liberal in your 30's you have no brain.
Well at least everyone can pull this software apart a bit more Openly and easily than the Chinese pulling apart spy planes and presidential planes foisted on them by the US. I'd be more worried if it included Microsoft code tho'!
No, I haven't read Marx. Actually, I haven't read Marx for a very explicit reason: I'd like to be able to say to people, "I haven't read Marx." This is primarily a political maneuver. There is a fear of anyone who has read Marx in certain circles, and I'd like to be able to talk with those people.
Given that, I have a friend who's a died in the wool Russian communist, and we argue very frequently, and with much shouting and rivalry. I have asked him to explain Marx's ideas to me, at least as best he understands it, and I have asked others the same.
Here is basically what I have learned (that is relevant to this conversation): There are three stages. The first is capitalism, and people eventually feel oppressed. Then there is a revolution and the dictatorship of the proletariat rises to power. This middle stage is called "Socialism". Then finally the dictatorship dissolves itself, and you end up in a Communism.
I asked my friend what the Communism stage is like, and after he described it to me, I said, "Well, that's an Anarchy!" Regional democratic control of things, stuff like that. So, I understand that, and I agree with that point.
The trick is that middle stage, and that's where Anarchists and Communists disagree. The Communists insist on a dictatorship in the middle. I've read some pretty scarry Maoist stuff in that respect. In fact, after the revelution in Russia, there were several communities that just skipped the middle stage. They went straight into Anarchism. But I have read that the "All power to the Soviets (Communities)" was betrayed, and they were taken, by force, into the State Communism. Because apparently the theory demanded it. They couldn't just go right into an Anarchy, they had to belong to the State first.
Anyways: This is how Marx has been described to me, and this is what I read, and how I interpret it.
As far as I can tell, power is never given up readily. It doesn't matter who's taking it, or receiving it, or whatever; It's just like the One Ring from Mordor. It's addictive, and terribly dangerous.
No "Revolution of the Proletariat" for me.
I don't know; Maybe I'm wrong about Marx. Maybe he didn't actually say that there should be those three stages. I haven't read him; This is just hearsay. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
I should note- My Communist friend, who I spoke about earlier- he believes that the third stage, the Anarchy, what he called "Communism"- he thinks it's a mistake. He thinks that a government of the proletariat should rule. He thinks that it should never disband it's power. He is, basically, a Facist. He believes that a strong and powerful government should rule everything, and just "be nice".
Well, I don't know; There are a handful of Fascist systems that have worked. For example, Thailand is a Monarchy (not exactly facist, but it's close), and they have a great thing going- for the time being, with the current Emporer. No sarcasm- the people there really Love him, and with good cause; He's been, from what I understand, a fair and good guy. Everyone hates the congress, but they take their Emperor very seriously.
So I suppose if you get the good king out of a million, you're all right. But the vast majority are bad, and state communism, state capitalism, state whatever- I don't trust.
I've rambled too much.
Brand new Linux distribution, and this has devolved into some kind of China bashing political rampage.
What happened to the software?
I heard it installs slow. Well, OK for a first release. China is signing about a million people a month on to the net, and this is a *big* win for Linux in my view.
Why don't you guys see it that way?
Who cares about the Chinese government anyway? I care about all the millions of Chinese who can now access Linux a little easier than before, now that they have a distribution targetted in their own language.
This is great!
Do you really think for a moment that there are millions of Chinese people who give a rat's ass about Linux?
Get some fucking perspective you dork! The Chinese populace is far more concerned about their Government (and their day-to-day lives) that thier operating system. BTW I wonder what percentace of the Chinese population even have access to a computer.
requires copyright notice. Matt Michie needs a clue on licenses.
not all packages in a linus distro are based on GPL and XFree is one of this packages. It's based on XFree's own license, but in the arcticle Matt says about Red Flag's XFreee copyright notice: "it had an interesting copyright message, "(C) 2000 Red Flag Software and others." Certainly the GPL doesn't require an advertising clause".
a litle research before writing such an arcticle would've been a Good Thing(tm).
What ? Me, worry ?
Sorry to told you but event if US is an imperialist country and have death penalty (and the world higher crime level), they do not kill their own people !!!
... just look at hong-kong and what china made with them ... that is your future : authoritarism, comunism, ...
;-)
;-)
Where are the 90s sping revoltionaries now ?
The are either dead or refugee in europe !
What about freedom of speech so ?!
Do you remember what is tibet ? and freedom in religion ?
China is also a well known ecological-aware country, just look at their latest dam construction that destroyed huge lands, people past and historical monuments !
Sorry to tell you so but beeing in Republic Of China (taiwan) you are subjective just because your government has always decide to go back to china and not be a sperate country and nation
About election, this is stupid who cares about electing your "major" if the state governor and the president are nominated ?!
At least in china they don't have problem with ballots and are not obliged to call their family to became the first men of the country
Anyway, it is sad to see most countries sucking china's d*** instead of telling them that such a great country could no more behave in such a nasty way !
About italy, sorry to tell you so but berlusconi is not fascist event if is one of the best blackmailer in the world !
About Iraq, this is just stupid, iraq is a toy for US president : nothing better than a good war agains vilain to raise up !
You could have stated southern-arabia instead
Anyway Freedom for tibet ! and freedom for china !
. . . the phrase "hacked by Chinese" a whole new meaning!
I'd be a Libertarian, if they weren't all a bunch of tax-dodging professional whiners. - Berke Breathed
Because, Uh, I'm really interested in embedded stuff, yea, that's it, embedded stuff...
Obviously, you don't really have an idea about what "freedom" means in the west. Now I'll grant you that the Chinese government isn't as oppressive and totalitarian as it was twenty or thirty years ago, but if you think the way the Chinese gov't limits freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of assembly or what have you in a manner resembling the way western gov'ts limit them, you've got a lot to learn about western values. For one, to name a recent example (Falun Gong), if I were to join my cult in a peaceful demonstration on Times Square, most likely, the authorities would let me do this without sending in the army. Next, if I start a Truly Democratic Party That Thinks The Government Is a Bunch Of Corrupt Assholes in North America or Western Europe, I can. I won't be elected into office, but I won't be sent to a dissident camp either. Finally, suppose I slander someone in the media. I don't have the right to do this in the US or in Europe, I'll be sent to court and be forced to take back what I said (if libel can be proven). In China, I end up in jail or worse. To this day.
Now I respect your Chinese culture and I respect your having a different opinion on what constitutes freedom and all that, but please do not go disrespecting my individualistic western culture by claiming the Chinese government is, by western standards not the brutal dictatorship we westerners think it is.
News and bla for computer musicians: http://lomechanik.net/
Population, population, population... :)
Luck favors the prepared, darling.
Surely a chinese distribution should have been reviewed by a chinese user using the chinese defaults? After all this is who it is going to be used by.
'English speaking white' man probably has very different idea of how the whole interface, etc is meant to work. I would like to see a review done by someone who is actually tardeted by this version of Linux.
Of course there are valid comments about not setting a root password, etc but the main focus of the review should have been 'How well does this distribution solve the needs of its (unique) users?'
/b
[Please type your sig here.]
Why is Redflag "much ridiculed"?
I don't see any other distributions moving electronic information security to a higher magnitude and claiming "international/national-standard-based national-level secure operating system kicked off".
Scariest thing on the site? From the "About Us" page:
BTW--I wish I could set up a filter to block all slashdot political ranting. You guys make me sick. Before posting more blather, think about which government is killing and torturing more innocent people, yours or China's. Hint: if you're US-American, the correct answer won't stoke your patriotism.
I know another meaning for the word mat, isnt it the four letter word that begins with F?
You're thinking you "Yob tvoyu mat'." It means "F*** your mother."
Except there's no point. You can just join the Green Parties.
Go to their website, the picture of the globe in the upper right corner is showing North America, not China.
I thought this was really funny until I realized that 1400 million people all trying to get rich quick by hacking up untested new molecules in sim on their new Red Flag Linux systems, easily hacked by the government or each other, was in fact the end of every wild thing in this biosphere.
I am now with Bill Joy, and "the terrorists", both of whom are way less scary than Pentagon killer robots or Chinese nanotech hackers. Sheesh. Just like you guys read William Gibson and built Cyberspace, now you are building Neal Stephenson's creepy Diamond Age world! And in that world, remember, the Chinese came out on top.
Its difficult for most North Americans (unfortunately I include my Canadian Countrymen) to see through simple Jingoist myopia and McCarthyism when talking about Socialism and Communism (and any Socialist/Communist States).
Most dont see any difference between Fascism (Totalitarianism) and Socialism. McCarthyism did a fine job in making the two synonymous -- when in fact Communism (Socialism) is more compatible with a Democratic (and rep.democratic (like Canada)) state, and Capitalism is more in line with Totalitarianism.
For everyone that cannot compile the concept of personal/individual Liberty and Freedom in a Socialist or Communist State please see Political Compass.org which illustrates the concept, they are in fact totally and completely separate.
Capitalism leads to Plutocracy...dont agree? Plutocracy is the Totalitarian rule by the Moneyed Class. Have you heard about the concentration of wealth in America? How about Enron literally choosing the heads of Federal Commissions.
Hmm. Need coffee, now. That clearly should have been "You're thinking of," not "you're thinking you."
The "Preview" button does no good whatsoever. There should be three buttons: Submit, Preview, and Think.
It's true, though, that the GPL or Stallmanism (the guy definitely is an 'ism', copyleft was actually named by Don Hopkins who is less dogmatic and more karmic) is exactly Communism.
By contrast, Open Source, where you freely loot the Commons patenting all improvements you make, not being required to share them or worry about public impact of people using your changes, is an exact analog to 19th century or Libertarian Capitalism.
Licenses have just repeated history.
In the political middle we have consortia, patent pools, 'common source', 'shared source' and etc..
Obviously not. In the west, "freedom" means that police will douse you in tear gas and shoot you with rubber bullets if you get together with some friends in public places and voice your displeasure with the corporate control of your nation's trade policy.
Global Stalmanism
Funniest..thing...ever.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
has anyone look at the source to see what back doors may have been included?
Seeing its install is being reported as slow, is it trying to contact some agency in China?
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
That is all that "Kaiwan"'s post is.
30 Roman Catholic Bishops and 22 priests in jail for being Roman Catholics.
Uncounted numbers of Protestants in jail for being Protestants.
Six are to be executed publically in honor of W.'s visit.
Red Guard occupied mainland China is the -most- totalitarian government on Earth!
No? I was raised in the west (Wisconsin, USA to be precise; educated at UW-Madison, to be even more precise), which means that, unlike you, I have personal experience living under both systems.
if you think the way the Chinese gov't limits freedom ... in a manner resembling the way western gov'ts limit them
I did not say East and West limit freedoms in the same manner. I simply said both East and West limits freedoms. It is not the limiting of freedoms which is at issue here, it is merely the particulars relating to the nature and methods of the limitations which are at odds.
(Falun Gong), if I were to join my cult in a peaceful demonstration ... the authorities would let me do this without sending in the army.
You're conflating Falung Gong with Tiananmen Square. The PRC has never used the army to deal with the Falung Gong.
But if you're looking for examples of governments using military might to crush dissident religious movements, you need look no further than Waco, Texas. Before you go decrying genocide in Bosnia or Uganda, you should reflect for a moment on the blatant genocidal policies perpetrated by the American government on Native Americans in the last century. Before you parade human rights abuses in Chinese prisons as examples of the barbarism of "communist" China, you would do well to examine your own prisons to make sure you're not just a pot calling the kettle black.
The difference between America and the PRC is not that America has never been repressive; the difference is Americans seem incapable of recognizing their own fallibility. Their all too willing to excuse in themselves the kinds of behavior they seem so eager to chastise in others.
As a case in point, though you may be too young to remember it, there was the Korean Airlines incident twenty-odd years ago, in which a Korean airliner was shot down by the Soviet military over the Kamchatka Peninsula in eastern Siberia. The Soviet regime claimed the airliner had invaded military airspace, was flying over top secret military installations, and refused to respond to repeated attempted radio contact.
America predictably went apoplectic, claiming that this was exactly the sort of behavior one ought to expect from the "evil empire", as Reagan had recently styled the Soviet Union. Six months later, it was America's turn, as the American military shot down a civilian Iranian jet flying over the gulf of Iraq. The strident American press went suddenly silent, and the American excuses sounded strangely reminiscent of the Soviet pleas six months earlier. Quoth the American captain of the naval vessel that fired the fatal shot: "They were flying in a threatening manner."
Now the Soviets had at least this much in their favor: the KAL flight was off course, flying outside of commercial airspace. Not so the fated Iranian airliner, which had been flying a normal route in heavily trafficked commercial airlines when it was blown out of the sky by an American missile. I recall a poll taken shortly after the Iranian airliner incident in which Americans by large margins dismissed the Soviet excuses as "communist propaganda", but were all too willing to accept the eerily similar American excuses at face value.
Now, my point to all this is not that America is as evil as the Soviets, but simply that Americans are all too often unwilling to extend the same benefit of the doubt to others that they pamper themselves with. Americans simply need to learn a little humility and acknowledge that we are all flawed human beings journeying together, rather than pontificating at the rest of the world about how superior Americanism is.
First, note that the person who claims that freedom of religion exists in China is a Chinese from Taiwan. The Constitution of Taiwan insists that Tibet, Taiwan, and Mongolia are all part of China. The Chinese in Taiwan support the territorial ambitions of mainland China. (We Americans should terminate the delivery of American weapons to Taiwan.) I challenge you to prove me wrong. Go ahead. Read the Constitution of Taiwan.
Getting back to the claims of that Chinese from Taiwan. He is referring to the "Patriotic Catholic Church". Indeed, this "church" is operating in China. There is, however, 1 important distinction between this "church" and a Western church. This distinction is also another part of the distinction between Chinese values and American values.
The "Patriotic Catholic Church" is run by the Beijing government. (Shocked? Please understand that we are talking about Chinese. What is weird and sick in the West is considered normal and fun in China.) In this Chinese "church", the "Christians" believe that the laws and regulations of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) are supreme. Then, afterwards, comes Christian values. If a Christian value contradicts the laws and regulations of the CCP, then the Chinese believe that the Christian value must be in error (i. e. the Bible was mis-read).
Western Christians believe that Christian values are supreme and that Christian values should govern every facet of their lives. Chinese "Christians" believe that Christian values should be distinct from the politics: i. e. Christian values should have no impact on politics. According to the Chinese "Christians", that is what Jesus wants.
As for the real Catholic Church in China, that church is banned. Any of its believers found by the Chinese police are now rotting in jail.
Again, I challenge you to prove me wrong. Many of you Westerners may be stumbling on the reality of Chinese culture for the first time. Be forewarned. Many Chinese talk just like this Chinese from Taiwan.
The bottom line is that we Americans should not buy "Red Flag Linux". Your Chinese colleagues will flock to this product and brag about its features. The Chinese do not give a damn about the Tibetans tortured and killed by the Chinese in China. But we are Americans. We will not buy this product. We have a conscience. A real conscience.
We Americans really need to understand the Chinese in Taiwan. This pro-China Chinese from Taiwan is fairly typical of most Chinese from Taiwan. They have been manipulating the United States of America (USA) for a long time. We Americans have this false image that Taiwan is a victim of Chinese aggression. On the contrary, Taiwan is a supporter of mainland China.
I repeat, again, that the Constitution (the highest law of the land) of Taiwan states explicitly that Tibet, Mongolia, and Taiwan are all part of China. Remember the Tibetans? They are being tortured and killed by the Chinese.
Again, the Chinese on Taiwan have invested more than $50 billion into more than 50,000 businesses in mainland China. Taiwan's per-capita outflow of investment to mainland China is at least 10 times America's per-capital outflow to mainland China. So much for the image of "poor, scared, little" Taiwan.
The majority of Chinese convicted (yes, convicted) of stealing American military secrets to give to Beijing is Chinese who were born in Taiwan. The "Wall Street Journal" did an in-depth study on the origin of Chinese spies. The shocking reality is that most come from Taiwan, not mainland China.
Again, the Chinese on Taiwan insist that Tibet must be integrated into mainland China. This claim is stated in the Constitution of Taiwan. One cannot be more explicit about supporting mainland China than having one's position of support being written into the damn Constitution!
You can be damn sure that "Red Flag Linux" will be wildly popular in Taiwan. We Americans should stick to our moral values and boycott "Red Flag Linux". We are, after all, not Chinese.
Its better than firing real bullets and sending in tanks and draging people away to forced labor camps for the rest of there lives.
We're going to make information free Mr. Anderson, whether you like it, or not.
An Eireannach thu?
In all seriousness:
Tux Marching into Tomorrow with the Great Flag of the People is just too cute to pass up. Make it a slashdot topic!
sulli
RTFJ.
Obviously, you don't really have an idea about what "freedom" means in the west.
;-).
... genocide
No? I was raised in the west (Wisconsin, USA to be precise; educated at UW-Madison, to be even more precise), which means that, unlike you, I have personal experience living under both systems.
My bad, sorry for assuming. Though I did live more than half of my life in a collectivist, less than free asian society (Indonesia), so maybe you shouldn't be assuming things either
I did not say East and West limit freedoms in the same manner. I simply said both East and West limits freedoms. It is not the limiting of freedoms which is at issue here, it is merely the particulars relating to the nature and methods of the limitations which are at odds.
And I still say that if you're equating Chinese 'if you disagree with the government and say so, you'll end up in a labor camp' with western 'you can say what you want about the government, but if we don't like it, we'll ignore you', you've got a serious problem with putting things in perspective. Sophistry, I think, is the term for what you're doing here.
Waco, Texas
WTF?? Waco Texas was *an incident* were the US government dealt rather clumsily, with *very unfortunate consequences*, with a group of people who were *actively* opposing the government and public safety in general. It's not US government policy to perpetrate murder of ethnic/religous groups (that's what genocide is). Once again, you're comparing apples and oranges.
airliners bit
Once again, those were incidents, not standard policy.
You really don't have a clue, do you? Just because western governments aren't perfect, not by a long shot, and just because western history is as soaked in blood as the rest of the world's history does not mean you can equate the practices of an actively repressing regime such as the PRC with the fuck ups of western government, which, under most circumstances anyway, and for their own citizens, upholds the basic tenets of freedom and human rights in general. I happen to think this is good, as I value the freedoms and rights of the individual above those of the collective. You may disagree. Fine. Just don't go attempting to prove the PRC isn't significantly more repressive than western governments, because it is.
News and bla for computer musicians: http://lomechanik.net/
Your referrence to the american/soviet plane issue, seems to indicate that you are completely taken-aback by the fact that governments engage in propaganda. I can assure you that the Russian government/media was as apoplectic over the Americans shooting down the iranian plane as the americans were about the other. I can also assure you that the Russian media wasn't as harsh on the Russians for shooting down the korean plane. That's just the way the world works. Friends get protected, enemies get attacked, regardless, it's not right, but it's real. Pragmatism is more important to most people than Idealism.
This sig intentionally left blank.
No, I don't believe you. There are many more issues that the article that you rely on leaves out. Ever hear of coincidence? Doubt it.
Imagine a Beowolf Cluster of THESE!!!
I agree with most of what you write, but I think that you should emphasize the fact that there was a /hell/ of a lot more than "several towns" where people had decided anarchism was the best way to run their lives. In fact Catalonia and Aragon were almost exclusively anarchist and Barcelona itself was anarchist predominantly.
The other important thing that you don't emphasize is that Communists were active in trying to destroy the anarchists, there was a non-aggression pact between Hitler and Stalin and Uncle Joe wanted to keep Europe re-assured.,
It's also important not to forget the trotskyist POUM which was a small but active presence and also suffered from the May Day purges.
It should also be noted that the anarchists did not follow through with the logical outcome of their demands and chose to support a Popular Front government, reposing too much faith in the CNT-FAI bureaucracy (especially the CNT) leading to formation of the Friends of Durrutti who rediscovered the problems exposed by the Platformists during the Russian 1917 Revolution.
Chinese-style sophistry is nothing more than deceitful communication. It is a common and accepted way of talking in Chinese society.
Consider the words of the pro-China Chinese from Taiwan. He repeatedly claims that mainland China has freedom of worship. He even says that the worshippers go to church.
This Chinese deliberately omitted telling you that those churches in China are run by the Chinese government. Here, in the United States of America, you can freely say to your minister, "I feel so sorry for the Tibetans. Chinese soldiers routinely beat and torture them." The minister would likely express his understanding and pray with you.
In mainland China, the minister would report you to the central committee of the Chinese Communist Party. You would then be arrested and sent to prison.
By the way, the Chinese block access to http://www.amnesty.org
The bottom line is that we, as Americans of conscience, should boycott "Red Flag Linux". We should show the Chinese what we think of their sophistry and blatant disregard of human rights.
It's not a question about which is better because both are bad... The difference is that the Chinese seem to be reforming themselves to make themselves more humain, while the Americans seem to be adopting more totalitarian-like policies (secret court marshels for examples)
hey.
for those of you looking for the iso this should be a fairly fast mirror. i will have no way of verifying it till sunday. so if someone can veryify it for me that would be nice. i'll put that in a readme in the same directory along with the md5sum.
currently it's at 87 percent. it should be done in a couple hours. the final size is around 440 megs. look for the readme to know when it's done.
mirror
-- john
Without meaning to open a whole theological can of worms, the issue of state- rather than Rome-appointed priests raises fundamental questions regarding apostolic succession, which calls into question the validity of the consecration of the Eucharist in the state-run churches.
China learned about state-run Churches from the
West. From the time of Constantine up to the Reformation, local monarchs would generally name
the key bishops in their territories who were
generally rubber-stamped by Rome. Thomas Cranmer, Archbishop of Canterbury and architect of the Reformation in England was appointed by
Henry VIII and that appointment was approved by
the Pope. The Pope has never had a role in the
appointment of Eastern Orthodox bishops while
monarchs often did.
If you call into question the Apostolic
Succession of state-appointed bishops, you call
into question the Apostolic Succession in the
West.
I have discovered a truly marvelous sig, unfortunately the sig limit is too small to contain i
Iraq is not a talibanistic state, it actually has a secular government, well, a lot china during the Mao days, pretty evil, but not based on religion. Sadam isn't a fundamentalist Muslim.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
I'm glad to see someone with a rational, level head posting on this site. Dosn't happen as much as it should :P
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
th4t th1z b4ckd00r sh30t w00d r00lz!!!
m3 c4nt w41tz t4 d0 m3 th1nz w1t th4 b02k d00d!!!
b0g! b0g! b0g! m3 w4ntz w4r3z!!!
Well, in america, we use the term "Chinese" for two diffrent things. "Zhongguoren" a person from china, and "Hanren" a ethnic Han (Han was the second dynasty after the waring states era)
Kaiwen may be a Han, ethnicly, but not a Zhongguren, politicaly. I think that's what he means
To negotiate with someone means you have to recognize and acknowledge that person. Or course China isn't going to sit down a negotiate with Taipei if they insist on claiming independence. That would be admitting defeat.
Erm, which is his point. That taiwan does not consider itself part of china, and defies the mainland.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
http://www.redflag-linux.com/english/1
The contents of the file is:
lkdjf
WTF???
Any l337 h4x0r$ know anything about this?
Is it a virus?
--- Jump!! Fire!! Bullet time!! - Lego version of the Matrix
Exactly my point. That Americans are more than willing to extend this sort of benefit of the doubt to their own government, yet assuming that any foreign government behaving in the same way is doing it out of habit?
with a group of people who were *actively* opposing the government and public safety in general.
Sounds a lot like the goings-on in Tiananment Square. The press rarely reported the other side of the story on the true nature of the "pro-democracy" demonstrators, but I assure you it wasn't a pretty picture. They were petty, they were ugly, there was constant infighting amongst the various factions there, and -- per the government -- they were a danger to public safety. Most of the demonstrators were not their for ideological reasons, they were there for the power trip.
This is in no way meant as a defense of the actions of Beijing in supressing the demonstrations. I fully agree it was a rephrensible act. But most of the demonstrators there were not the angelic martyrs the American press made them out to be.
Once again, those were incidents, not standard policy.
But with Beijing it's a matter of policy? Why do you make that assumption? Were the genocidal actions of the American government in the 19th century toward native americans also an "incident", or were they matters of policy?
Not at all. Having lived in many countries, I'm well acquainted with propogandist regimes. My comments were restricted to the particular American form, the fact that Americans seem to buy into their own government's propoganda hook, line and sinker, and the fact that Americans tend to be in possession of a rather larger bully pulpit to preach from than most. This makes them distinctly different than most. It also explains the large amount of antipathy and, often, outright dislike of America around the world -- the perceived arrogance of America and its citizens in so loudly proclaiming its own superiority and rightness over against others. The recent flap over Bush's "evil axis" speech is just the latest example. Even America's friends are distancing themselves as quickly as possible from that attitude, and Bush himself seems incapable of realizing how inappropriate, insufferably boorish and isolationist his approach to foreign policy is.
This is the kind of image America has around the globe and, to make matters worse, America doesn't seem to care. America may be respected, it may be feared, but it all too often isn't much liked.
Do you know the history of China and Tibet? Do you know that Tibet has been part of China for 1000 years? Do you know why Dalai Lama fleed Tibet 40 years ago? Do you know what he did to his people in Tibet?
What do you think about freeing Texas?
Do NOT reboot your pc! If you do, it will not start up, and your hd will be toast. Quick! Update your virus software and clean it.
You really don't have a clue, do you? Just because western governments aren't perfect, not by a long shot, and just because western history is as soaked in blood as the rest of the world's history does not mean you can equate the practices of an actively repressing regime such as the PRC with the fuck ups of western government, which, under most circumstances anyway, and for their own citizens, upholds the basic tenets of freedom and human rights in general. I happen to think this is good, as I value the freedoms and rights of the individual above those of the collective. You may disagree. Fine. Just don't go attempting to prove the PRC isn't significantly more repressive than western governments, because it is.
One of the most amazing things about 'western governments' is that about 100 years ago they figured out that most peoples behaviour is not determined by guns or force or laws, but by what they know, what they think and what they believe.
And so began the largest and most effective brain-washing campaign in human history.
The difference between Communist regimes like China and Western regimes like America, is that the American regime became much more effective and effecient at brain-washing than their communist counterparts, thanks largely to two factors.
The first was an incredible amount of research in American universities into psychology, psychometry, hypnosis and brain function. In fact, you could say that psycho-neurological research is the 'silent-revolution', because the advance in knowledge has been so spectacular, yet the widespread disemination of this knowledge has been so small.
The second factor in America's advancement of brain-washing and mind-control was the the advertising industry. Unlike the dim-witted, donut-eating, TV watching public, people in the advertising industry were paying close attention to the advances in psycho-neurology, and experimenting with them. The massive advantage of this type of experimentation was that there was a powerful feedback loop between the experiments (advertisements) and effects (sales or responses). This feedback loop allowed the rapid development of numerous powerfull methods to influence people's beliefs and behaviours.
The success of these methods led to their adoption by the media organisations who displayed the advertisements, and eventually by sophisticated 'spin doctors' within the ranks of the Republican and Democratic political parties.
So powerfull were these methods and so widespread was their use, that to many people who live outside the United States of America, when they meet Americans, it seems as though they live in a delusory dream world.
I am not a resident of the United States, nor am I resident of China. However, I have travelled in both countries, and have met and spoken with many people in both countries, and the conclusion I have come to is this.
Despite strict government control of media, the average city-dweller in China knows more about what is going on in the outside world (ie. outside their own country/province) than the average American.
The average Chinese is more critical, and more openly critical of the government than the average American is, in private conversation.
Information and opinion in broadcast media such as radio, film and television is just as restricted, and contains just as much government propaganda in the United States as it does in China.The one exception to that is newsprint, which in the US is much more dissenting and critical than China. I put this down to the growing illiteracy rate in the US, and the low penetration of print-media vs broadcast media.
Tiananmen was the last of a series of ugly incidents that began in the cultural revolution, and is highly unlikely to happen again. Of course, students have been shot when protesting in the US, but they were probably "hippie communists", so that makes it acceptable to Americans.
And finally, the WACO incident, you claim
Waco Texas was *an incident* were the US government dealt rather clumsily, with *very unfortunate consequences*, with a group of people who were *actively* opposing the government and public safety in general.
without showing any references to back up your claim that the branch Davidians were *actively* opposing the government and public safety in general thus providing the perfect example of how incredibly effective the brain-washing mind-control techniques are, given that you lived half your life in Indonesia.
If you were to read the statements by the Sherrif's department during the investigatory hearings, you would get a completely different picture. A picture that shows that the ATF acted inappropriately, and almost certainly illegally, against the reccommedation of the Sheriff's department.
There is a lot more to this story than meets the eye on both sides, however the tendency for Americans brought up in the 'sound bite era' is to have too short an attention span to research anything beyond the bullshit they are fed by the TV.
>>
I am the director, and this is my movie
"But I daresay that a case could be made that, in day to day terms, their system of justice, as a rule, is fairer than the US system, that fewer true innocents suffer. "
Are you fucking nuts ?
Yeah, I do ask you : ARE YOU FUCKING NUTS?
Please, stop trying to be smart ass and think what you just wrote.
If you are willing to be fair and willing to think rationally you will realize how stupid and completely ignorant your post was.
"The American "Tibet," of course, occurred in the 19th century, in the settlement of the west, the war against Mexico, and the doctrine of "Manifest Destiny," so we feel that the US today isn't as culpable."
Except this "Tibet" resulted in country with on of the highest standards of living in the whole fucking world.
In US so called "minorities" have the highest income and generally the best chances to succeed.
Yeah, everyone cries racism, inequality yet there is no better place on earth?
Certainly not Africa, not Haiti , nor South America.
Millions of people trying to get into this country are the best testament to the success of US ideas.
For all its faults and mistakes do you know any other place on this planet where one can feel safer and have better chance to have reasonably comfortable life ?
Fuck you.
No one is perfect.
All in all US has an excellent record compared to just about every other nation in the world ( including GB )
"Translation: we're morally superior to everyone else. "
You know what ?
American system is superior to this bullshit that is going on in China.
Frankly, millions of Chineese people risk their lives to get here which is pretty much ultimate proof of supriority.
Propaganda hook ? ...
...
Please
You know how to measure prosperity of a society ?
There is a very simple test. If more people wants to be part of this society then people who are trying to escape somewhere else, we have a winnner.
US in this regard is one of the most succesfull societies in the whole world.
As far as being Bush comments
Would you have any problems if he was reffering in that way to Third Reich or Soviet Union ?
"Were the genocidal actions of the American government in the 19th century toward native americans also an "incident", or were they matters of policy? "
What the fuck are you talking about ?
It was 200 years ago, at the time where NO COUNTRY in the world considered this kind of action to be out of ordinary.
You are fucking comparing apples to oranges.
Please, stop this nonsense.
We know you hate US and everything it stands for.
Anyway, in my book , you are an idiot just for trying to retionalize systemic abuse of human rights by Chinesse regime.
Face it dude.
Chinesse have no culture of democracy , just like Russian, it will take centuries before people over there create resonably society.
You are third world, reasonably rich in case of Taiwan , but still not civilized and not free.
The Soviet Union also had a constitution, Stalin wasn't likely to obey his own rules.
The justice system has only been independant for a few years, it's mainly a party tool for kangaroo courts.
Yes, democratic selection of people from one party who can't do anything about local corruption.
Freedom of speech: all internet chat and emails are monitored by the ministry of truth, all publications are vetted by government censors and all faxes are read by the state.
Freedom of worship: all believers have to register with a special ID card just like a driver's license. The state dictates the sermons have to be in favor of the state.
Freedom of assembly: I suppose no tanks ran over citizens in Tiannemen Square?
Freedom of property ownership & business: a communist state never belives in private property or free trade.
Privacy: every phone is traced, every fax read, all email filtered and internet chat censored.
The communist state decides who is an enemy of the state, what ideas are permitted and what religions are allowed.
Red Flag Linux is merely a way to ensure that technology is developed in Chinese language and that the Chinese Firewall has a way to censor anyone.
- Kaos games and encryption systems developer