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its not hard to write secure c

And yet 70 percent of all security bugs are memory safety issues.

If only there was some kind of language which was designed to reduce memory safety bugs.

No tools can help here.

What studies have shown to date is that better tools are needed. Luckily, better tools are available.

Show me a study which backs your claim that no tools can help. If you can't show me any research to support your position then this is just more baseless pontificating.

Ugh, another completely predictable response from a C ideologue. Ideology turns a person into a mindless fanatic. Ideology makes a person dumb.

The practical reality is that memory safety is a problem. Ideological utopias do not exist. Languages like Rust are trying to mitigate the problem of memory safety in the real world. Forget your ideology and try to find a way forward to some pragmatism.

> I think my main objection so far to Rust is that I can't just download a tarball, unzip, set up some environment variables, and run. It seems that you have to run an installer, which I really dislike! But that's me.

This might interest you too
https://forge.rust-lang.org/ot...

> I think my main objection so far to Rust is that I can't just download a tarball, unzip, set up some environment variables, and run. It seems that you have to run an installer, which I really dislike! But that's me.

You could start with
https://play.rust-lang.org/
No need to download anything at all.

From what I remember (it has been a while since I ran rustup-init.exe), Rust installer does not need admin privileges and does not have a registered uninstaller. All it seems to do is download, unzip and just adds to path (No new environment variables by default. You set them if you want to override).

There are some who do use rust for microcontrollers. Rust's defaults unfortunately do make for large binary sizes, but there are things that can be done to get similar sized binaries to C. Rust does need to make them more accessible, though.

From the rust FAQ: https://www.rust-lang.org/en-US/faq.html#why-do-rust-programs-have-larger-binary-sizes-than-C-programs

This is older and unofficial but still informative: https://lifthrasiir.github.io/rustlog/why-is-a-rust-executable-large.html

We have solutions to reduce this sort of problem (at least once you get past the learning curve), but the top programming languages tend to implement very few of them. Reasoning about state is difficult, particularly when that state can be altered in unexpected ways. It is difficult to be confident that your code does what you think it does when you don't have a computer-checked method of specifying your intentions separate from what your code does.

There are no magic solutions here, at the least you will end up needing to spend more time writing in a specification language and that requires learning how it works. I would say that a gentle introduction to something like this is Elm which has an aim of stripping down typed functional programming into something that doesn't really need a C.S. degree. Here is a video which helps to explain what a better type system can do for your code. If you want to see something a bit more mind-bending check out Idris which has a much more powerful specification language which can prevent things like off-by-one errors or unbounded recursion in many cases. Moving off the scale of usability a bit, there is ATS which is a difficult language, but its specification language is able to make pointer arithmetic safe and doesn't bind you to immutable data structures. Hell, even Rust is full of good ideas that help to avoid these issues. And if fault-tolerant distributed systems are your thing, you need to check out Erlang (or its sibling Elixir) as there are so many great ideas that have been around for decades yet don't get nearly enough exposure.

This doesn't prevent us all from occasionally falling into this trap, but the themes of the languages listed is to find ways to encourage (or force) you to get the little things right the first time with computer-verified specification and to isolate the search space where problems are likely to occur.

> Rust does not turn a bad coder into a good coder.

The point of Rust is to allow good coders actually write better (not perfect) code. With C, good coders still manage to write bad code while thinking they are golden. That is the entire point of the article, which you seem to have glossed over.

Don't worry. No business coder is going to pick up Rust and start writing bad kernels and drivers. That won't happen.

I suggest you actually read the Rust book.

https://doc.rust-lang.org/stab...

It is a good read even if you don't plan to ever use it.

For someone who has clearly not given Rust a proper look, you have way too strong opinions.

I had no idea. One google search seems to confirm the identity politics approach to defining a language, and I can't think of many more things that would make me distrust a *programming language* more:

https://internals.rust-lang.or...

"Reading this team announcement was really disappointing and I can only agree with what @skade already said. This needs no be fixed before everyone just gets used to it being a male-only team."

What the fuck is Rust? Never heard.

Rust is a relatively new programming language.

I looked into using it a little while ago. On the surface it sounded appealing. It sounded like it would give me a lot of what C++ offers, but without some of the headaches that C++ suffers from.

To keep a long story short, Rust, as a language, did not meet my expectations. The syntax is C-like, but it's also quirky in some ways. The performance was mediocre. The borrow-checking approach to memory management is a pain in the bottom in practice, even after you understand it and have worked with it. There was only one compiler implementation, and I found it to be buggy and slow, even compared to a slow C++ compiler like GCC. The standard library was pretty bad, and the string handling was atrocious. Third-party libraries often didn't compile, and many were woefully incomplete. It was a really bad experience.

But the worst part, in my opinion, was the Rust community. I've dealt with a lot of programming language communities over the decades, but Rust's was by far the worst I've ever experienced.

The whole Rust Code of Conduct thing is kind of weird. I mean, programming language communities got along just fine without codes of conduct for ages. At first I though it was just a symbolic thing, but I soon realized that the Rust Code of Conduct was much more than that. I'd classify it more as a religious text, or even a behavioral script. It was like the Rust community worshiped it. In my experience it turned what should have been friendly discussion among collaborating colleagues into a highly controlled, flow-chart-like, courtroom-like, overly-formal, totally-artificial, robotic-like ritual. You literally had to walk on eggshells the whole time, out of fear of accidentally violating the Rust Code of Conduct in some obscure and non-obvious way.

The Rust Code of Conduct itself is contradictory. For example, there's a paragraph that says, "we don’t tolerate behavior that excludes people", yet that same paragraph starts with, "We will exclude you from interaction if ...". They basically would be violating their own Rust Code of Conduct when they try to uphold it!

I later found out that they even have a Rust Moderation Team that goes around and enforces the Rust Code of Conduct! I can't think of any other programming language community that I've dealt with that has a formally organized hit squad whose sole purpose is to take out community members who are deemed to be "undesirable". It's absurd. It's really, really absurd.

Something else I found disturbing was the extreme leftism that permeated the community. Now I don't think that programming and politics really need to mix much. They're pretty separate, for the most part. But in my experience the Rust community was very heavily into promoting "diversity" and "tolerance" and all of those other left-wing buzzwords, even when they really had nothing to do with programming. It's like they're more focused on "social justice" than they are on creating a usable programming language.

Another thing that bothered me was the smugness I kept encountering from Rust's contributors and supporters. They kept portraying Rust as being this great savior, when in my opinion it's rather mediocre, and actually has some pretty serious flaws and problems. If you questioned these Rust supporters, they would basically belittle and insult you, assuming they didn't try to censor you through down-modding or banning, if the discussion venue supported such things. I found it strange how they often ridiculed C++, yet when it came to the same functionality or features Rust was often much worse than C++.

I've been programming for a long time, and I've used a lot of different programming languages, but my experience with Rust was perhaps the worst I've ever experienced. No programming languag

What the fuck is Rust? Never heard.

Rust is a relatively new programming language.

I looked into using it a little while ago. On the surface it sounded appealing. It sounded like it would give me a lot of what C++ offers, but without some of the headaches that C++ suffers from.

To keep a long story short, Rust, as a language, did not meet my expectations. The syntax is C-like, but it's also quirky in some ways. The performance was mediocre. The borrow-checking approach to memory management is a pain in the bottom in practice, even after you understand it and have worked with it. There was only one compiler implementation, and I found it to be buggy and slow, even compared to a slow C++ compiler like GCC. The standard library was pretty bad, and the string handling was atrocious. Third-party libraries often didn't compile, and many were woefully incomplete. It was a really bad experience.

But the worst part, in my opinion, was the Rust community. I've dealt with a lot of programming language communities over the decades, but Rust's was by far the worst I've ever experienced.

The whole Rust Code of Conduct thing is kind of weird. I mean, programming language communities got along just fine without codes of conduct for ages. At first I though it was just a symbolic thing, but I soon realized that the Rust Code of Conduct was much more than that. I'd classify it more as a religious text, or even a behavioral script. It was like the Rust community worshiped it. In my experience it turned what should have been friendly discussion among collaborating colleagues into a highly controlled, flow-chart-like, courtroom-like, overly-formal, totally-artificial, robotic-like ritual. You literally had to walk on eggshells the whole time, out of fear of accidentally violating the Rust Code of Conduct in some obscure and non-obvious way.

The Rust Code of Conduct itself is contradictory. For example, there's a paragraph that says, "we don’t tolerate behavior that excludes people", yet that same paragraph starts with, "We will exclude you from interaction if ...". They basically would be violating their own Rust Code of Conduct when they try to uphold it!

I later found out that they even have a Rust Moderation Team that goes around and enforces the Rust Code of Conduct! I can't think of any other programming language community that I've dealt with that has a formally organized hit squad whose sole purpose is to take out community members who are deemed to be "undesirable". It's absurd. It's really, really absurd.

Something else I found disturbing was the extreme leftism that permeated the community. Now I don't think that programming and politics really need to mix much. They're pretty separate, for the most part. But in my experience the Rust community was very heavily into promoting "diversity" and "tolerance" and all of those other left-wing buzzwords, even when they really had nothing to do with programming. It's like they're more focused on "social justice" than they are on creating a usable programming language.

Another thing that bothered me was the smugness I kept encountering from Rust's contributors and supporters. They kept portraying Rust as being this great savior, when in my opinion it's rather mediocre, and actually has some pretty serious flaws and problems. If you questioned these Rust supporters, they would basically belittle and insult you, assuming they didn't try to censor you through down-modding or banning, if the discussion venue supported such things. I found it strange how they often ridiculed C++, yet when it came to the same functionality or features Rust was often much worse than C++.

I've been programming for a long time, and I've used a lot of different programming languages, but my experience with Rust was perhaps the worst I've ever experienced. No programming languag

There's no need to over complicate this. We already have a definitive set of rules for social conduct and interaction. It's called The Rust Code of Conduct. Thankfully, there's already an organization dedicated to upholding The Rust Code of Conduct. It's called The Rust Moderation Team. Together they will stamp out all injustice, intolerance, bigotry and hate. They will create a world with diversity and inclusion.

There's no need to over complicate this. We already have a definitive set of rules for social conduct and interaction. It's called The Rust Code of Conduct. Thankfully, there's already an organization dedicated to upholding The Rust Code of Conduct. It's called The Rust Moderation Team. Together they will stamp out all injustice, intolerance, bigotry and hate. They will create a world with diversity and inclusion.

I suggest getting the help of the Rust community for the technical parts of this problem. I am a member myself on this seems like a great case for us!

https://www.rust-lang.org/en-U...

I read The Rust Programming Language. It's one of the best programming books ever written, I think. It is very clear and it has lots of practical examples. I already knew that Rust was going to be the language of the future, but this book really shows just how powerful Rust is. In the 1990s we talked about how great the K&R book was. Well in the 2020s I think we'll be talking about how great The Rust Programming Language book is, and how it has changed computing forever.

You should read this discussion that somebody else linked to earlier.

Please, read it all. It gives an excellent snapshot into the sorry state of the Rust community.

Keep in mind that some of the participants of that discussion are very prominent members of the Rust community.

Steve Klabnik (steveklabnik), for example, is currently listed as part of the Core team, the Dev Tools Peers team, the Documentation team, and the Style team.

Manish Goregaokar (Manishearth) is currently listed as part of the Dev Tools Peers team.

Pascal Hertleif (killercup) is currently listed as part of the Dev Tools team.

Felix Klock (pnkfelix) is currently listed as part of the Language, the Compiler, and the Moderation teams.

Matt Brubeck (mbrubeck) is currently listed as part of the Moderation team.

Ben Striegel (bstrie) is currently listed as part of the Community team.

So these aren't just random "trolls" trying to make the Rust project look bad.

These are important Rust contributors seriously engaging in some of the most pathetic discussion I've ever seen within a software development context.

That's the general mentality of the Rust community. In my opinion it's a strange mixture of immaturity and autism, combined with an obsession for political "correctness".

I can't trust people like that to develop critical foundational software like a programming language.

I looked into using Rust a little while ago. On the surface it sounded appealing. It sounded like it would give me a lot of what C++ offers, but without some of the headaches that C++ suffers from.

To keep a long story short, Rust, as a language, did not meet my expectations. The syntax is C-like, but it's also quirky in some ways. The performance was mediocre. The borrow-checking approach to memory management is a pain in the bottom in practice, even after you understand it and have worked with it. There was only one compiler implementation, and I found it to be buggy and slow, even compared to a slow C++ compiler like GCC. The standard library was pretty bad, and the string handling was atrocious. Third-party libraries often didn't compile, and many were woefully incomplete. It was a really bad experience.

But the worst part, in my opinion, was the Rust community. I've dealt with a lot of programming language communities over the decades, but Rust's was by far the worst I've ever experienced.

The whole Rust Code of Conduct thing is kind of weird. I mean, programming language communities got along just fine without codes of conduct for ages. At first I though it was just a symbolic thing, but I soon realized that the Rust Code of Conduct was much more than that. I'd classify it more as a religious text, or even a behavioral script. It was like the Rust community worshiped it. In my experience it turned what should have been friendly discussion among collaborating colleagues into a highly controlled, flow-chart-like, courtroom-like, overly-formal, totally-artificial, robotic-like ritual. You literally had to walk on eggshells the whole time, out of fear of accidentally violating the Rust Code of Conduct in some obscure and non-obvious way.

The Rust Code of Conduct itself is contradictory. For example, there's a paragraph that says, "we don’t tolerate behavior that excludes people", yet that same paragraph starts with, "We will exclude you from interaction if ...". They basically would be violating their own Rust Code of Conduct when they try to uphold it!

I later found out that they even have a Rust Moderation Team that goes around and enforces the Rust Code of Conduct! I can't think of any other programming language community that I've dealt with that has a formally organized hit squad whose sole purpose is to take out community members who are deemed to be "undesirable". It's absurd. It's really, really absurd.

Something else I found disturbing was the extreme leftism that permeated the community. Now I don't think that programming and politics really need to mix much. They're pretty separate, for the most part. But in my experience the Rust community was very heavily into promoting "diversity" and "tolerance" and all of those other left-wing buzzwords, even when they really had nothing to do with programming. It's like they're more focused on "social justice" than they are on creating a usable programming language.

Another thing that bothered me was the smugness I kept encountering from Rust's contributors and supporters. They kept portraying Rust as being this great savior, when in my opinion it's rather mediocre, and actually has some pretty serious flaws and problems. If you questioned these Rust supporters, they would basically belittle and insult you, assuming they didn't try to censor you through down-modding or banning, if the discussion venue supported such things. I found it strange how they often ridiculed C++, yet when it came to the same functionality or features Rust was often much worse than C++.

I've been programming for a long time, and I've used a lot of different programming languages, but my experience with Rust was perhaps the worst I've ever experienced. No programming language has left me more disappointed, and no programming language community has ever left me feeling more weirded out. In my o

I looked into using Rust a little while ago. On the surface it sounded appealing. It sounded like it would give me a lot of what C++ offers, but without some of the headaches that C++ suffers from.

To keep a long story short, Rust, as a language, did not meet my expectations. The syntax is C-like, but it's also quirky in some ways. The performance was mediocre. The borrow-checking approach to memory management is a pain in the bottom in practice, even after you understand it and have worked with it. There was only one compiler implementation, and I found it to be buggy and slow, even compared to a slow C++ compiler like GCC. The standard library was pretty bad, and the string handling was atrocious. Third-party libraries often didn't compile, and many were woefully incomplete. It was a really bad experience.

But the worst part, in my opinion, was the Rust community. I've dealt with a lot of programming language communities over the decades, but Rust's was by far the worst I've ever experienced.

The whole Rust Code of Conduct thing is kind of weird. I mean, programming language communities got along just fine without codes of conduct for ages. At first I though it was just a symbolic thing, but I soon realized that the Rust Code of Conduct was much more than that. I'd classify it more as a religious text, or even a behavioral script. It was like the Rust community worshiped it. In my experience it turned what should have been friendly discussion among collaborating colleagues into a highly controlled, flow-chart-like, courtroom-like, overly-formal, totally-artificial, robotic-like ritual. You literally had to walk on eggshells the whole time, out of fear of accidentally violating the Rust Code of Conduct in some obscure and non-obvious way.

The Rust Code of Conduct itself is contradictory. For example, there's a paragraph that says, "we don’t tolerate behavior that excludes people", yet that same paragraph starts with, "We will exclude you from interaction if ...". They basically would be violating their own Rust Code of Conduct when they try to uphold it!

I later found out that they even have a Rust Moderation Team that goes around and enforces the Rust Code of Conduct! I can't think of any other programming language community that I've dealt with that has a formally organized hit squad whose sole purpose is to take out community members who are deemed to be "undesirable". It's absurd. It's really, really absurd.

Something else I found disturbing was the extreme leftism that permeated the community. Now I don't think that programming and politics really need to mix much. They're pretty separate, for the most part. But in my experience the Rust community was very heavily into promoting "diversity" and "tolerance" and all of those other left-wing buzzwords, even when they really had nothing to do with programming. It's like they're more focused on "social justice" than they are on creating a usable programming language.

Another thing that bothered me was the smugness I kept encountering from Rust's contributors and supporters. They kept portraying Rust as being this great savior, when in my opinion it's rather mediocre, and actually has some pretty serious flaws and problems. If you questioned these Rust supporters, they would basically belittle and insult you, assuming they didn't try to censor you through down-modding or banning, if the discussion venue supported such things. I found it strange how they often ridiculed C++, yet when it came to the same functionality or features Rust was often much worse than C++.

I've been programming for a long time, and I've used a lot of different programming languages, but my experience with Rust was perhaps the worst I've ever experienced. No programming language has left me more disappointed, and no programming language community has ever left me feeling more weirded out. In my o

Please have a look at Rust's design, and tell me that it doesn't make writing correct multi-threaded code easier than C++. Rust's concept of "borrowing" is a huge step forward (as compared to C++) in expressing the sharing semantics in multi-threaded code.

A good starting point for understanding borrowing, and how it helps write correct, maintainable, multi-threaded code is Fearless Concurrency With Rust.

Rust and Go, yeah doubt there's a single company of any size running their business processes on either.

You didn't even check before posting. Go is used at many companies, and even the younger Rust makes some money: https://www.rust-lang.org/en-U...

It's strange to see the FreeBSD project being attacked like this. My interactions with the FreeBSD and the OpenBSD communities have always been excellent. As long as you do your homework and don't waste their time, the members of those communities are always extremely friendly and willing to lend a helping hand. They are some of the most tolerant, open and non-bigoted individuals I've ever dealt with.

Those communities are a huge contrast to the Rust programming language project's community. Despite all of their claims about being "inclusive", Rust has one of the most tyrannical and totalitarian communities that I've ever experienced in my many years of open source software use. I mean, they even have a Rust Moderation Team dedicated to eradicating/banning anybody they dislike! The justify this eradication squad through the existence of their tyrannical and contradictory Rust Code of Conduct.

The hypocrisy and contradiction of the Rust Code of Conduct is unreal. The very same paragraph that says "we don’t tolerate behavior that excludes people" starts off with "We will exclude you from interaction ...". They openly promise to engage in the same sort of behavior that they claim is intolerable!

It gets even weirder when you look at the list of Rust contributors, and it becomes clear that most of them are young, white males. Of course, there's nothing wrong with being young, white, or male. It's just strange to see such a lack of diversity in a community that claims to go out of its way to promote and encourage diversity. I've seen much more natural diversity in pretty much every other open source community I've ever dealt with, especially the ones that don't go out of their way to focus on diversity in any way. It's like diversity happens best when you aren't fixated on artificially creating it.

I think that the FreeBSD community is being wrongly smeared here. It's one of the most open and friendly communities I've ever dealt with. Yet while this excellent FreeBSD community is being attacked without merit, absolutely nothing is done about open source communities, like the Rust community, that in my opinion promote censorship and intolerance while claiming to support the opposite.

It's strange to see the FreeBSD project being attacked like this. My interactions with the FreeBSD and the OpenBSD communities have always been excellent. As long as you do your homework and don't waste their time, the members of those communities are always extremely friendly and willing to lend a helping hand. They are some of the most tolerant, open and non-bigoted individuals I've ever dealt with.

Those communities are a huge contrast to the Rust programming language project's community. Despite all of their claims about being "inclusive", Rust has one of the most tyrannical and totalitarian communities that I've ever experienced in my many years of open source software use. I mean, they even have a Rust Moderation Team dedicated to eradicating/banning anybody they dislike! The justify this eradication squad through the existence of their tyrannical and contradictory Rust Code of Conduct.

The hypocrisy and contradiction of the Rust Code of Conduct is unreal. The very same paragraph that says "we don’t tolerate behavior that excludes people" starts off with "We will exclude you from interaction ...". They openly promise to engage in the same sort of behavior that they claim is intolerable!

It gets even weirder when you look at the list of Rust contributors, and it becomes clear that most of them are young, white males. Of course, there's nothing wrong with being young, white, or male. It's just strange to see such a lack of diversity in a community that claims to go out of its way to promote and encourage diversity. I've seen much more natural diversity in pretty much every other open source community I've ever dealt with, especially the ones that don't go out of their way to focus on diversity in any way. It's like diversity happens best when you aren't fixated on artificially creating it.

I think that the FreeBSD community is being wrongly smeared here. It's one of the most open and friendly communities I've ever dealt with. Yet while this excellent FreeBSD community is being attacked without merit, absolutely nothing is done about open source communities, like the Rust community, that in my opinion promote censorship and intolerance while claiming to support the opposite.

Would using the Rust programming language help to avoid these problems that are happening between two different threads of execution? As is stated on the Rust web site front page, one of Rust's benefits is that it has "threads without data races" and it also has "guaranteed memory safety". Both of those sound like they could go along way toward helping prevent one thread of execution interfering with another.

Popularity can also be a flash in the pan. Ruby, anyone? How about Rust? Is Go still going or can we add it to the pile of "once been hip" languages?

Rust was never popular in any sense.

Yes, it was widely hyped, but it was never widely used. This hype came mainly from a very small number of people expressing themselves very loudly in echo chambers like Hacker News and Reddit.

Look at the list of organizations using Rust. It's full of no-name companies/organizations. I wouldn't be surprised if some of those are basically "startups" where some college student made a logo and role-plays as a "CEO", without actually providing any product or service of value. The few recognizable names have apparently only used it for small projects that are likely not much more than mere prototypes.

At least languages like Go and Ruby are or were used for large, important systems at serious businesses. That's far, far more than can be said of Rust.

As the hype around Rust dies down, and as Mozilla becomes more irrelevant, I suspect we'll see Rust slowly disappear.

You're totally mistaken about Python, though. Yes, Python is good for quick one-off scripts. But it's also perfectly good for large software systems that are maintained for a decade or longer. That's why it's so powerful. It scales from the smallest of projects up to very large projects.

the Rust Moderation Team, which enforces the Rust Code of Conduct. This code of conduct ensures a tolerant environment for all. Anyone who doesn't show tolerance is excluded.

We should use Rust to bring peace to the Middle East.

the Rust Moderation Team, which enforces the Rust Code of Conduct. This code of conduct ensures a tolerant environment for all. Anyone who doesn't show tolerance is excluded.

We should use Rust to bring peace to the Middle East.

What about following a development model like the Rust programming language has?

They have a variety of teams that work on various parts of the language and its ecosystem. One of the most important teams is the Rust Moderation Team, which enforces the Rust Code of Conduct. This code of conduct ensures a tolerant environment for all. Anyone who doesn't show tolerance is excluded.

They also make heavy use of GitHub, which is where they track the over 2,700 open issues that currently affect Rust. This also provides a collaborative environment for Rust's extremely diverse development team, which mainly consists of white males in their 20s, to work together on Rust.

It's also important to make sure that the language gets a lot of attention at places like Reddit, Hacker News and Stack Overflow. But remember, if anybody says anything critical about the language then those comments must be modded down. It's intolerant to say anything bad about Rust.

Java has been around a long time, and perhaps it's time for it to adopt a modern programming language development methodology like we've seen created by the Rust community. This approach has already worked well for Rust, causing it to become such a widely used language. It will surely work well for a language like Java, too.

What about following a development model like the Rust programming language has?

They have a variety of teams that work on various parts of the language and its ecosystem. One of the most important teams is the Rust Moderation Team, which enforces the Rust Code of Conduct. This code of conduct ensures a tolerant environment for all. Anyone who doesn't show tolerance is excluded.

They also make heavy use of GitHub, which is where they track the over 2,700 open issues that currently affect Rust. This also provides a collaborative environment for Rust's extremely diverse development team, which mainly consists of white males in their 20s, to work together on Rust.

It's also important to make sure that the language gets a lot of attention at places like Reddit, Hacker News and Stack Overflow. But remember, if anybody says anything critical about the language then those comments must be modded down. It's intolerant to say anything bad about Rust.

Java has been around a long time, and perhaps it's time for it to adopt a modern programming language development methodology like we've seen created by the Rust community. This approach has already worked well for Rust, causing it to become such a widely used language. It will surely work well for a language like Java, too.

What about following a development model like the Rust programming language has?

They have a variety of teams that work on various parts of the language and its ecosystem. One of the most important teams is the Rust Moderation Team, which enforces the Rust Code of Conduct. This code of conduct ensures a tolerant environment for all. Anyone who doesn't show tolerance is excluded.

They also make heavy use of GitHub, which is where they track the over 2,700 open issues that currently affect Rust. This also provides a collaborative environment for Rust's extremely diverse development team, which mainly consists of white males in their 20s, to work together on Rust.

It's also important to make sure that the language gets a lot of attention at places like Reddit, Hacker News and Stack Overflow. But remember, if anybody says anything critical about the language then those comments must be modded down. It's intolerant to say anything bad about Rust.

Java has been around a long time, and perhaps it's time for it to adopt a modern programming language development methodology like we've seen created by the Rust community. This approach has already worked well for Rust, causing it to become such a widely used language. It will surely work well for a language like Java, too.

Part of the problem is that there's just so much more that people want to accomplish today. It isn't like in the 1950s, where a man would be content going to his 9-to-5 job, coming home to a prepared dinner, smoking a cigar, going to sleep, and doing the same thing again every other work day. Saturdays were used for doing household chores and playing sports with his children, while Sundays were used for going to church and having a Sunday dinner with family.

It's totally different today. Men, women, and even people who don't identify as male or female have so much more ambition. They have so much more they want to do. They want to create. They want to build. They want to learn. They want to express. They want to protest. They want to love. They want to be loved. And they want to do all of these things every day. There's just no time for children these days.

Just look at the Rust programming language. We wouldn't even have the Rust 1.20 release today if it weren't for the hard work and sacrifice of so many people. Of course you can't be having children when you're bust crafting next-generation programming languages!

People today choose many other activities over reproduction and parenthood. It's just a part of modern life. Raising children is just inherently incompatible with creating programming languages that are so unique and special that they couldn't possibly have been created in an era where the focus was on procreation and raising children.

This is a good point. Ruby, and especially Ruby on Rails, did fall out of favor quite quickly. I think that many people and organizations regret falling for the hype. Ruby and Ruby on Rails both gained a pretty bad reputation for being slow and bloated, and software written using them was often found to be difficult to maintain. Dynamically typed scripting languages might work well for quickly throwing together a prototype, but they often aren't so good for writing large software systems that must be maintained for many years or even decades.

It is also important to note that some prominent members of the Ruby and/or Ruby on Rails communities jumped ship to Rust when it started to become obvious that the Ruby and Ruby on Rails hype was wearing very thin, and the Rust hype was just starting to build.

For example, look at the Rust Core Team. We see Yehuda Katz listed, who is apparently a former member of the Ruby on Rails Core Team. We also see Steve Klabnik listed. He apparently wrote a book about Ruby on Rails with Katz. Alex Crichton appears to maintain some Ruby gems.

So over 30% of Rust's Core Team was involved with Ruby at some point. It might even be more than that. This has made me very suspicious and weary of Rust. I personally have had bad experiences with Ruby and Ruby on Rails, and I fear that I might be subjected to the same hype-driven nonsense if I get anywhere near Rust, due to the same people being involved with both.

Was this inspired by the Rust programming language community, by any chance? The Rust Code of Conduct and the Rust Moderation Team (which enforces the Rust Code of Conduct) both form the foundation of the Rust community, and have for some time.

It's all really quite odd. Despite claiming to be "committed to providing a friendly, safe and welcoming environment for all, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, disability, ethnicity, religion, or similar personal characteristic", in my opinion the Rust community is one of the least tolerant programming language communities I've ever seen. For example, it's absurd how they'll downvote you at Reddit or Hacker News, for instance, if you dare to express anything that might be considered criticism of Rust, no matter how slight.

This stuff coming out of the UK sounds a lot like the hypersensitivity we've seen from the Rust community.

Was this inspired by the Rust programming language community, by any chance? The Rust Code of Conduct and the Rust Moderation Team (which enforces the Rust Code of Conduct) both form the foundation of the Rust community, and have for some time.

It's all really quite odd. Despite claiming to be "committed to providing a friendly, safe and welcoming environment for all, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, disability, ethnicity, religion, or similar personal characteristic", in my opinion the Rust community is one of the least tolerant programming language communities I've ever seen. For example, it's absurd how they'll downvote you at Reddit or Hacker News, for instance, if you dare to express anything that might be considered criticism of Rust, no matter how slight.

This stuff coming out of the UK sounds a lot like the hypersensitivity we've seen from the Rust community.

Was this inspired by the Rust programming language community, by any chance? The Rust Code of Conduct and the Rust Moderation Team (which enforces the Rust Code of Conduct) both form the foundation of the Rust community, and have for some time.

It's all really quite odd. Despite claiming to be "committed to providing a friendly, safe and welcoming environment for all, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, disability, ethnicity, religion, or similar personal characteristic", in my opinion the Rust community is one of the least tolerant programming language communities I've ever seen. For example, it's absurd how they'll downvote you at Reddit or Hacker News, for instance, if you dare to express anything that might be considered criticism of Rust, no matter how slight.

This stuff coming out of the UK sounds a lot like the hypersensitivity we've seen from the Rust community.

I've been able to survive this long as a software engineer without discussing castration in any email or company blog posts. It's really not very difficult.

Where do you work? I have to assume that it isn't in Silicon Valley, or some other heavily leftist area.

What you're saying is perfectly true in any reasonable area, where leftism has been kept in check. But it doesn't hold true in areas where leftism is running rampant.

It was leftists who brought genitalia and -isms and -phobias into the workplace.

I don't think you truly appreciate what it's like to work within an organization that consists mainly of Millennials (aka "hipsters"), especially ones who are on the far left of the political spectrum. It's the kind of thing you can't really understand unless you've experienced it, it's so unbelievable.

The workplace doesn't revolve around work or business, like is typically the case. Such a workplace revolves around so-called "social justice" and other leftist ideologies. Work is secondary to matters of political ideology.

If you haven't experienced this yourself, perhaps the best example you can publicly see is the Rust programming language project. Its Code of Conduct should give you a sense of what the situation is like.

There's a paragraph within the Rust Code of Conduct that states that it's unacceptable to exclude people, yet that very same paragraph also threatens to do just that against people deemed to be offenders! With some emphasis added:

We will exclude you from interaction if you insult, demean or harass anyone. ... In particular, we don’t tolerate behavior that excludes people in socially marginalized groups.

When working in a leftist organization, you'll find it challenging to not discuss gender, sexuality, racism, homophobia, sexism, and all sorts of other -isms and -phobias on a frequent basis, even if you're a software developer! The absurd thing with leftists is that they could very well go after you if you don't discuss such things as frequently as they do, because to them the lack of discussion indicates that you're a "bigot".

If you've never experienced a leftist Millennial workplace, then I don't think you could truly appreciate how unusual of a situation it can be. Talking about "castration" (or more likely, transsexuals) could very well be a common occurrence.

Rust is in production at Microsoft, Dropbox, NPM, CoreOS, Sentry, Braintree, and more. There's ample funding to keep the Rust core team employed, even without Mozilla.

Similarly, Rust's explicitly follows an open, community-based governance model which does not give Mozilla any special control or veto over the direction of the language.

And ownership isn't difficult but Rust will force you to define it. If you want to build trees, acyclic graphs or whatnot you can use an Option, or something like a Weak reference.

If you were absolutely desperate to mimic the way C did something (e.g. to interoperate with some 3rd party library), you could even use pointers and nulls from inside an block marked unsafe. e.g. the openssl bindings for Rust call out to C code but they wrap it all up in some nice RAII objects.

And ownership isn't difficult but Rust will force you to define it. If you want to build trees, acyclic graphs or whatnot you can use an Option, or something like a Weak reference.

If you were absolutely desperate to mimic the way C did something (e.g. to interoperate with some 3rd party library), you could even use pointers and nulls from inside an block marked unsafe. e.g. the openssl bindings for Rust call out to C code but they wrap it all up in some nice RAII objects.

And ownership isn't difficult but Rust will force you to define it. If you want to build trees, acyclic graphs or whatnot you can use an Option, or something like a Weak reference.

If you were absolutely desperate to mimic the way C did something (e.g. to interoperate with some 3rd party library), you could even use pointers and nulls from inside an block marked unsafe. e.g. the openssl bindings for Rust call out to C code but they wrap it all up in some nice RAII objects.

I had a look at the installation page
Doesn't seem to be ports for any non-posix systems.
My guess that it isn't very portable.

I guess everyone is free to write their own compiler for any system just like with C, but then documentation matters a lot more.
The Rust documentation doesn't really go enough into depth to ensure portability.
With C a lot of care have been taken not only to express how compilers should treat odd code, but also what the programmer should think about to ensure that the code is portable to a variety of obscure platforms.

The reason you see people go into longwinded discussions about what correct C syntax is and what pieces of code actually does is because you can have that kind of discussion with C.
A lot of the other high level "languages" aren't really languages at all but just a single compiler/interpreter.
In those cases all you can say is "Well, the interpreter accepts it and it behaves this way.", but you can't really go into a discussion of if it is supposed to behave that way and if it should behave that way on all architectures.

I'm kind of astounded that everyone here is so cynical while at the same time being so ill-informed about the stuff Mozilla is/has been doing the past few years. In addition to "Quantum Flow", they wrote a C++ replacement (Rust) that's concurrency-minded and memory-safe for better performance and fewer bugs, as well as a completely new HTML/CSS rendering engine (Servo) written in said programming language, that's faster than any other rendering engine in existence at this point. All this is coming to Firefox soon. (Although IMHO they might as well just rebrand/rewrite a whole new browser at this point, seeing as Firefox extensions are disappearing and the Firefox's market share has already dwindled). Relevant links: https://www.rust-lang.org/ https://servo.org/ https://wiki.mozilla.org/Quant...

Lately I've heard a lot about a new programming language called Rust. There was a Slashdot submission about Rust just a few days ago, entitled TechCrunch Urges Developers: Replace C Code With Rust .

Rust's web site describes it like "Rust is a systems programming language that runs blazingly fast, prevents segfaults, and guarantees thread safety."

So using Rust for IoT applications sounds like a perfect fit to me. Rust is a systems programming language, so it can be used for low level tasks and it should run well in resource constrained devices. It's also fast, which is necessary for real time IoT applications. The prevention of segfaults and guaranteed thread safety sound like they will help avoid many common flaws that can be exploited.

Rust sounds like the solution to IoT security problems.

You can always write your own linked-list library that uses a little bit of unsafe code. Or use one that already exists, like the one in the standard library: https://doc.rust-lang.org/std/...

I've written a lot of Rust code over the last year. Hardly any of it uses unsafe code, but escaping to unsafe code once in a while is much better than making the whole language unsafe or making the type system super-complicated in an effort to reduce the amount of unsafe code required even further.

Calling a browser by the name of a systems programming language sponsored by a competing browser engine developer is confusing.

does NOT support local computer file viewing

Though Chrome for Android does not, Chrome for desktop can still view HTML files. I just updated Chrome on my work PC to version 59, relaunched, and opened an HTML file. The one drawback is that each pathname (directory plus filename) is considered a separate origin for the purpose of the same origin policy, and there is no way for a file to issue the equivalent of an Access-Control-Allow-Origin header. The workaround is to install Python on the same PC and do python3 -m http.server.

does not support playback of website /embed/ *.mid

It supports Web Audio API with which a JavaScript programmer could build a parser and soft synthesizer for Standard MIDI File, NSF, MOD, or what have you. (A JavaScript implementation of a missing browser feature is called a "polyfill".)

does not support anonymous UTUBE

I just updated Chrome on my work PC to version 59, relaunched, opened an Incognito window, and accessed Universal Tube and Rollform Equipment Corporation. Did you misspell the site name?

So how does this apply to a language like Rust? Rust is one of the most significant up-and-coming modern languages. It is getting a lot of attention, and it's being used for some interesting projects. Moz://a, for example, is using Rust to build Servo, a next-generation web browser engine.

But Rust has a very C-like syntax. It looks a lot like C, Java, C++, C#, and D. Check out the Rust home page linked to above to see an example of its code. Some people even think its syntax is less friendly than C++'s.

Rust alone proves these claims to be very, very questionable. It's a new programming language that doesn't conform to what the submission appears to be claiming.

Dear BeauHD,

Can we get some submissions about computer programming? I haven't seen a good one of those in a very long time.

All we've seen lately are submissions about climate change, politics, and Uber/Netflix/Amazon/Apple over and over and over again.

Here's a great lead you could follow: Rust 1.17 was released a couple of days ago.

Beau, In case you haven't heard of Rust, it's described like: "Rust is a systems programming language focused on safety, speed, and concurrency."

It's open source, and moz://a (the organization best known for Firefox) is working on it.

1.17 isn't a massive release, but it has some important changes that the Slashdot community should be aware of.

I'd submit this news myself, but the submission system here is very broken. It says I need to create an account and log in to submit a story, which I refuse to do. I'm not going to create yet another online account just to submit content here to you for free!

Yours truly,
Anonymous Coward

Dear BeauHD,

Can we get some submissions about computer programming? I haven't seen a good one of those in a very long time.

All we've seen lately are submissions about climate change, politics, and Uber/Netflix/Amazon/Apple over and over and over again.

Here's a great lead you could follow: Rust 1.17 was released a couple of days ago.

Beau, In case you haven't heard of Rust, it's described like: "Rust is a systems programming language focused on safety, speed, and concurrency."

It's open source, and moz://a (the organization best known for Firefox) is working on it.

1.17 isn't a massive release, but it has some important changes that the Slashdot community should be aware of.

I'd submit this news myself, but the submission system here is very broken. It says I need to create an account and log in to submit a story, which I refuse to do. I'm not going to create yet another online account just to submit content here to you for free!

Yours truly,
Anonymous Coward

Why aren't the Rust programming language and the Nim programming language included?

Both of those are hot languages that are being used to accomplish some really great things. Like Rust is being used to work on the way-cool Servo web browser engine, which some day may even replace Firefox's Gecko engine!

Rust and Nim are leading the way. They are like where Java was in late 1995. They're new, they're gaining traction, and soon they'll be used everywhere.

A lot could be learned by observing what the developers of the Rust programming language project do when running their project.

They're dealing with a large project that covers a complex domain, a huge amount of code, and many developers scattered across the globe.

The first thing to do is to use git, and perhaps something like GitHub. This will allow your developers to collaborate using a free and open source version control system.

Next, you need a Code of Conduct to prevent social injustice from negatively affecting the project. A Moderation Team is tasked with ensuring that everyone is tolerant, and any intolerance will be ruthlessly stamped out.

Changes go through a request for comments process. This keeps everything organized and everybody on the same page. Bugs have detailed bug reports and discussion.

GitHub pull requests are used to integrate the changes. All changes are reviewed by somebody else. If you're a lucky contributor, you may even have your contribution reviewed by none other than Steve Klabnik zerself! If the review passes then their automatic integration/merging bot will merge the pull request into the master branch.

Your project doesn't have to follow the exact same approach that the Rust project follows, of course. But I think that there are a lot of things that any large software development project could learn from how the Rust developers work. Their approach has scaled to over 1,700 contributors!

A lot could be learned by observing what the developers of the Rust programming language project do when running their project.

They're dealing with a large project that covers a complex domain, a huge amount of code, and many developers scattered across the globe.

The first thing to do is to use git, and perhaps something like GitHub. This will allow your developers to collaborate using a free and open source version control system.

Next, you need a Code of Conduct to prevent social injustice from negatively affecting the project. A Moderation Team is tasked with ensuring that everyone is tolerant, and any intolerance will be ruthlessly stamped out.

Changes go through a request for comments process. This keeps everything organized and everybody on the same page. Bugs have detailed bug reports and discussion.

GitHub pull requests are used to integrate the changes. All changes are reviewed by somebody else. If you're a lucky contributor, you may even have your contribution reviewed by none other than Steve Klabnik zerself! If the review passes then their automatic integration/merging bot will merge the pull request into the master branch.

Your project doesn't have to follow the exact same approach that the Rust project follows, of course. But I think that there are a lot of things that any large software development project could learn from how the Rust developers work. Their approach has scaled to over 1,700 contributors!