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do real-world comparison tests. Run similar tasks over a period of time on machines built on the 2 architectures and compare the actual power demand.

Two reasons I can't:

1. I don't own a C7 system.

2. Regardless of how thoroughly I set up the test, there would be constant naysayers, and people with other ideas of how to erform the test. In other words, it wouldn't solve anything. Remember how it took almost a year for the computing community to realize just how much reduce the power consumption of the A64 90nm parts were over the 130nm A64s, not to mention Prescott? It mostly had to do with poor testing with incomplete information, plus conflicting results due to this.

So, let's do the next best thing, and take real-world numbers and try piecing them together. Unfortunately, there's a real dearth of actual REVIEWS. If you put C7 and review into Google, you actually get a lot of PREviews, but no solid benchmarking.

The only REVIEW I managed to find was this one, which shows the performance of the 1.5 GHz C7 versus a Sempron 3400+. The author notes that the cost of the Sempron plus board is the same as the cost of the Via system, so it's a good comparison.

The 256k cache plus the single channel memory combine to really hamper the Sempron's true performance (As a representative of the Athlon 64) in some benchmarks, but it still managed to come out shining in benchmarks that don't depend wholly on memory bandwidth and cache size. Thanks to the massive AMD price drop in July (after this review), you can now buy an Athlon 64 AM2 plus a 3200+ for that price, so I'd say pump up the benchmark results %10-20 across the board to get a feel for what you could buy for that money today.

Even with all the talk about low-power states and fast state switching, even though the Sempron is clocked %33 faster, the Sempron with the trusty old Cool 'n Quiet enabled managed to consume less power. How embarassing. If we can trust these test results, not only will the Sempron system finish processing ages earlier, it will also use less power.

It isn't tiny, but the Shuttle XPC M 1000 looks a lot like a home theatre stack component. It's not slim though.

For something more cubish, Shuttle has the SB36G5M running Intel's "Viiv" media platform

How about a Shuttle SD11G5. It has an external power brick, heat sink on the CPU and a single fan.

It uses the Pentium M chipset, so it doesn't draw a lot of power. Built-in Creative 7.1 sound, SPDIF in, SPDIF out, 1 PCI Express and 1 pci slot, and VGA/DVI onboard output. SFFTech Review. Shuttle's tests say that it's noise level is 24 dB.

here's a quick hint for you: don't offer 'facts' if you can't check out your facts first before blathering on.

about Apple's warranty:

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=300 572/ note that they say "...should be installed by an Apple Authorized Service Provider." that's "should" not "only" by an AASP.

and http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=250 97/ "...Adding DRAM, VRAM or other user-installable upgrade or expansion products to an Apple computer is not considered a modification to that Apple product."

of course, that doesn't mean they _want_ you to do it; the case is difficult to open but it can be done if you're patient and careful: http://www.russellbeattie.com/notebook/1008276.htm l/

[rant] it's NOT just about looks: the mini target audience is for "adders" and "switchers" who want a computer that just works, i.e. they want their software to work - iPhoto, iTunes, iMovie, iDVD, GarageBand, Safari/Mozilla, as opposed to learning how to be a systems admin to care for their Windows computer. sure you can get a PC for less, but then you still have to buy XP and all the other software. and it's still XP. They're buying the whole ball of wax for the "computing experience", a consistent, friendly, useful experience, so your statement, "...most of the software that most people want to run out there runs either on Linux..." is crap, since there's no decent equivalent to the iLife suite in Linux(or Windows, provide links if you can.) and due to the nature of Open Source, there will be differences(some significant) in UI for linux apps.
don't forget, all macs COME WITH iLife - you don't have to buy it, install it and learn five different ways to do the same thing(i'm thinking of the OS file browser provided to all apps and navigating directories in Explorer)...

you do non-technical readers/users a disservice by not providing proof of your statements - and your lack of experience with the Mac shows. the mac "experience" is something you realize when the computer and the software don't get in the way of what you're doing. i've got a dual-boot windowsXP/gentoo machine i built myself and several Macs. I've been using, programming, designing and destroying software professionally since 1985; i've used punch cards, TTYs, mainframes, supercomputers, PCs, i've designed my own user interfaces when there wasn't even X/OpenGL(remember the Sun1? the DEC Gigi? character graphics on a vt100? i do.) - so i have a lot of choices, my opinion? the user experience in windows is abysmal(sp?) when compared to the mac, so i'll take the mac every time. when you can get a complete, consistent set of programs that do what is included in iLife for Linux/FOSS, it _will_ be a great day indeed. until then you're saddled with inconsistent applications user-interfaces for both linux and windows. ( p.s. i like MythTV, Gimp(especially with the recent UI hacks...), blender, firefox/thunderbird and use fluxbox, but they're just short of the integration achieved on the mac.)[/rant]

here's a review of the mini that i feel is fair and balanced:
http://www.sfftech.com/showdocs.cfm?aid=659

to sum up the mini-memory issue: there are _many_ reviews elsewhere and it has been discussed at length in many forums that you can install your own memory, it's just if you break the lid doing it they won't replace it.

back on-topic: the EPIA series are able performers if you're not a demanding user(the dual cpu board displayed at Cebit looks promising); OK, yet another flavor of linux, why?.

a great place for EPIA info is: URL:http://mini-itx.com//

clicky

Can Anyone say Shuttle PC?

"Shuttle PC!"

Small and quiet really is the new overclocking. A lot of PC makers have been working on smaller models for a long time, but they really have to work hard to queeze the same features as a normal size box has (and most customers demand) into a small size box with all the heat problems. So far only Shuttle seem to make a lot of profit from what I've heard. That box was really pathetically similar to the MiniMac though.

A SFF computer is a great choice, if you know what you are getting. NOT a gaming station. High end processors and graphics cards just generate too much heat inside that small box, you will get problems. Especially if you try to do overclocking (do people still do that? Why do reviewers keep talking about it?). In my opinion they are not a good choice for businesses either unfortunately. They are too cramped to work in if a support guy need to make a quick upgrade or replace a problematic part.

They are perfect as a home entertainment center, or as a computer where you mainly do stuff like surf, mail, develop... Much higher family acceptance factor than a big beige box with a loud fan.

Link for fans of small-is-beautiful:
http://www.sfftech.com

You could check out the reviews at sfftech. They always have a some noise measurements and comparisons in the benchmark section of their reviews. While there are terribly loud Shuttles, they have some quiet ones too. Especially the SN45 Zen is rather quiet and has an external PSU. The other nice thing is that this mainboards allows undervolting and clocking by software (8rdavcore), which makes this box even quieter if you don't need full performance. Fan regulation by software (speedfan) is possible as well. When an Athlon is enough for you, this box is a rather good way to built a cheap, nice and quiet box.

Shuttle has IIRC the third PSU generation in their boxes now. They are much better (=quieter) than the first models.

Bye egghat.

When the first SFF (small form factor) machines came out, I was interested, but they were very limited with low-rent technology. That's not the case anymore. You want a PCI Express, or the latest Athlon-64, or maybe you want a steady-as-a-rock Intel 865 chipset and matching P4? There are well built SFF machines that fit the bill, and all you give up are PCI slots.

My latest gaming machine is a Soltek 3401 (review at http://www.sfftech.com/showdocs.cfm?aid=464) with what was at the time the highest-end stuff, a P4 at 3 Ghz, a Radeon 9800XT, and to get a real gameport, a SB Audigy in the only PCI slot, along with two optical drives. The resulting machine is rock-steady, even overclocked and running 24/7 and playing all the latest games. Plus, it is a snap to travel to conventions with - it came with its own backback and I can check it in as a carry on. Bringing it to clients' is no problem either.

This computer is the quietest I've ever had (save for the fanless, hard driveless Apple //e) and extremely reliable. When at conventions, it stays just as fast and delivers gameplay just as good as any of those modded, neon-lit monsters other folks bring, but at 1/3 the size.

Though this FIC board doesn't seem to be very overclockable, most Shuttles and Solteks are. And don't worry about SFF power supplies - they are designed to be efficient and work well despite their low wattage ratings. Just try some high-end cards and be prepared to see them work fine.

If the idea of an SFF machine interests you, check out the reviews and ask around at the forums of http://www.sfftech.com/. I'm glad I did.

When the first SFF (small form factor) machines came out, I was interested, but they were very limited with low-rent technology. That's not the case anymore. You want a PCI Express, or the latest Athlon-64, or maybe you want a steady-as-a-rock Intel 865 chipset and matching P4? There are well built SFF machines that fit the bill, and all you give up are PCI slots.

My latest gaming machine is a Soltek 3401 (review at http://www.sfftech.com/showdocs.cfm?aid=464) with what was at the time the highest-end stuff, a P4 at 3 Ghz, a Radeon 9800XT, and to get a real gameport, a SB Audigy in the only PCI slot, along with two optical drives. The resulting machine is rock-steady, even overclocked and running 24/7 and playing all the latest games. Plus, it is a snap to travel to conventions with - it came with its own backback and I can check it in as a carry on. Bringing it to clients' is no problem either.

This computer is the quietest I've ever had (save for the fanless, hard driveless Apple //e) and extremely reliable. When at conventions, it stays just as fast and delivers gameplay just as good as any of those modded, neon-lit monsters other folks bring, but at 1/3 the size.

Though this FIC board doesn't seem to be very overclockable, most Shuttles and Solteks are. And don't worry about SFF power supplies - they are designed to be efficient and work well despite their low wattage ratings. Just try some high-end cards and be prepared to see them work fine.

If the idea of an SFF machine interests you, check out the reviews and ask around at the forums of http://www.sfftech.com/. I'm glad I did.

... just to reply to my own post, here is a Sudhian's page with an XPC rundown...

The Xenarc screens are supposed to be better than the Lilliput screens FWIW. I've purchased a 7inch version with vid capability as well as VGA for under $400 off of EBAY.

I've been looking into this in order to monitor what's going on with my car's standalone EFI system. Since that EFI system's software allows me to build "dashboards" I can do LOTS of interesting displays. I have been collecting URLs and you can see pics of other's progress and discussion here -> http://forum.aempower.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=9604

Some URLs I've collected in no distinct order or organization:

http://www.logisysus.com/catalog/product_info.php? cPath=74&products_id=189
http://logisysus.com/catalog/product_info.php?prod ucts_id=334
http://www.kingyoung.com.tw/s620.htm
http://littlepc.com/
http://www.diamondsystems.com/
http://www.viaarena.com/
http://www.media-car.fr.st/
http://www.everythingusb.com/hardware/index/Griffi n_RadioSHARK_AM-FM_Radio.htm
http://www.xmradio.com/xmpcr/ (I bought one, have added optical output, and have purchased TimeTrax!)
http://www.hauppauge.com/html/wintvpvr usb_datashee t.htm> (have one on the way, thanks EBAY!)
http://store.karpc.com/cat-LCD-Touch-Screen--lcdmo nitor.htm
http://www.mp3car.com/
http://www.soundblaster.com/products/audigy2NX/
http://www.carbotpc.com/products/
http://www.powerstream.com/DC_PC.htm
http://www.powerstream.com/mini-itx.htm
http://www.media-car.fr.st/
http://drivesoft.net/
http://www.gnetcanada.com/
http://www.lighttek.com/talisman.htm
http://skylab.org/~chugga/mpegbox/MPBS1/
http://www.compucar.be.tf/
http://www.autonode.com/ig710specs.html?
http://www.trc12volt.com/
http://www.intraplexcorp.com/tx3.asp
http://www.sfftech.com/
http://www.mini-itx.com/store/
http://www.dashmatics.com/forum/faq.php

Hopefully some of those will be of help to others considering this sort of thing, I'd be interested in working with others to research this! My plans are to mock up something with the touchscreen and front-end software working with the WINTV, XM PCR, my MP3 collection, GPS mapping, the RLTC software, and my AEM datalogging software. IF it works well (or even halfway well) THEN I'll buy hardware to put IN the car. No sense spending the money if the interface turns out to suck or be too distracting while driving. I'll likely be able to play DVDs too but honestly that's pretty se

A Mini-ITX case would fit the bill, but supports limited hardware. The scene is well covered at mini-itx.com. Sudhian's Small Form Factor area covers a wider range of systems, including this one, and may be more apropos...

Why do people make wrong claims in such a matter-of-fact manner? Is it ignorance or malice?

Whatever, more modules in general leads to slower access time. More sticks (modules) of RAM adds to the capacitance driven by the memory controller, and therefore increases the propagation delay on those traces. The more connected modules the longer total trace length driven by each IO buffer of the memeory controller. The difference is probably negligible for all but the edgiest overclocker, but there's always a speed advantage for fewer modules.

I did a quick google and found this example to back me up, but it's not really needed as you clearly have no fucking idea what you're talking about and could not cite one single reputable argument to back up your insane claim. One of your friends spewed that nonsense and you're parroting it because it sounded reasonable. Of course, that's only because you have no fucking idea what you're talking about.

i didn't see it mentioned here by anyone else, but as reported on a couple of (sites for one)
there's a neat new box coming out from IWILL that crams two(2) Opterons in a SFF case.
Unfortunately, if you need something now, this one will be coming too late for you unless you're a
developer/partner/etc:

"IWILL ZMAX based on nVIDIA nForce3 Pro 250Gb chipset will sample in July.
Volume production is planned in September, with a suggested price of $499.
IWILL plans to get attention in workstation market. ZMAXdp will include proprietary
form factor motherboard, 300W power supply, up to 2x3.5" HDD bay, and 1xAGP;
PCI and SI can offer various configurations for workstation market demand."

it sounds like it could be a nice little box...

other pre-built systems include:

Pre-built
Caliber

there are others, but I've lost my wish-list ;-)
You could also build one yourself, but I'd look for the nForce3 pro 250 or 250Gb, the NF3-150 didn't
exactly get extraordinary reviews.
Good Luck!

The SFFTech.com ST61G4 Review has noise levels from a few different SFF boxes, loaded with the same components.

I do challenge the silent claim, and I own a Shuttle myself. It is quiet, but nowhere near silent. My G4 Cube with a liquid ball bearing hard drive, now thats silent. Of course my Shuttle does have a Radeon 9700 Pro making a decent amount of noise.

"First of all, a laptop doesn't take as much space as a desktop"
Suggest you should take a look at Shuttle XPCs.

"As for ergonomics, the full-size screen of a sony vaio is immensely comfortable, and a 15" screen is quite generous"
You're suggesting laptops are ergonomical? Do you realize, because the screen and the keyboard are not detachable on most laptops, that it is impossible to maintain an ergonomical setup with laptops? Placing your laptop low and you are killing your neck while comforting your arm. Placing it too high you are killing your arm instead. You just can't have both your neck and your arm in a correct position because the screen and the keyboard of your laptop are attached too closed together.

Oh and don't get me started on using those horribly jam-packed laptop keyboard.

You should visit here to learn the ergonomic pitfalls of your laptop.

"As for upgradeability, I have a Belkin 7-port USB hub, and i can daisy chain that to have 127 USB ports if i want to"
As if I cannot hook up 127 USB ports on a desktop?

"or rest it on my stomach with an empty A4 sized folder attached to it with a thick rubber band, amazingly they're exactly the same width"
Truely *amazing* point. Makes me feel bad about my desktop not matching A4 folder size.

The whole article is basically an ad, anyway.

Print link for simpler downloading.

They also have information on similiar machines and busy forums which have probably already answered the questions being thrown around here, plus some cool user mods and paint jobs...