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All of that is beyond the point I was making, that all of those are furhter along than Mono, and that Mono will run into the same kind of issues they have.

There are several including IBM, TowerJ and KaffePro.

An interesting question is what about the Cobalt MIPS-based appliances? Don't they run Linux as the x86 ones do? So where's the source code for those?

Funny you should say that. I have a qube2 so I'm gonna try this soon:

debian-cobalt

Is anybody working on a JRE for AtheOS? Although Java has hardly taken over the desktop (*cough*), there are quite a few useful apps.

Kaffe seems to have been ported to a huge number of platforms, so it may not be too hard to do an AtheOS port as well. The Kaffe homepage has some instructions for people who want to do a new port.

I came across this page which shows some of Microsoft's Investments over the years. Apart from the fact that Microsoft has never had an original idea for itself, one thing stood out... The have funded Transvirtual's Java Virtual Machine, Kaffe. This software is developed under a GPL license... I wonder if Microsoft had a tough time stooping down to our level just to get a bit of leverage on one of their other compeditors... Sun.

1. Any Language. [...] I know the Java bytecode isn't tied to Java the language, but realistically, that's the way Sun as limited it.

The other purported advantages you list for C#/.NET/CLR/MSIL are similarly specious. Large-fraction-of-native-speed, cross-platform, secure distribution is already available with the Java-the-platform, and the other advantages you mention are at least as easy with Java (Java-the-language and Java-the-platform) as with .NET. Further, free Java/JVM implementations are mature and widely available (from, for example, IBM, Blackdown, TransVirtual (Kaffe), and Sun, for varying definitions of "free").

.NET is not an example of Microsoft "getting it." .NET is an example of Microsoft continuing not to get it -- reinventing the wheel, rather than building on perfectly good existing systems.

--

The GPL'd Kaffe VM seems to be a good idea for the Java part. It has been ported to many platforms and is aimed at embedded systems.

In case you didn't know, Microsoft signed a contract with Transvirtual to support development of a GPL PersonalJava 1.1 compliant java envirnoment Kaffe . You can find the news here

However, don't dream that Microsoft dedicates to the growth of Java and GPL. Some conspiracists suspected that the whole things is to hurt Java development. The fact that Kaffe has not implemented java.security will help supporting the false claim "Java is not secure"

"Microsoft is throwing money at a small company trying to make some noise at JavaOne, the way they do every year,"Jim Mitchell, vice president of architecture and technology at Sun's JavaSoft division, said.

right then

you have a problem with mobile phones they cant store info so you must provide it to them over the ether so to speak

so here's WML + iMode

they get the text and convert that into apps

you need to do something select on the relevent *link/button* and the server then servers up another stream for you (and only you)

but wait you are just getting a serialized verion of the app and only parts of it great for text mode stuff where latancy is not a problem but whta about a game ?

you move to the left to dodge the fireball and wait and wait... while the next part is sent Not Good

so we find that you have to serialize the most important parts of the logic or all of it. Now what can be "sent over the wire" yep thats java you just download to your phone the app and frag those bad men in their flying machines ahahah

colour as well and ajustable to screen relitively easy ! security for online buying built in, manages fonts and such well and vectors for victor are now in (after a deal with shockwave)

yeah JAVA's cool yeah it rocks BUT

its slow has garbage colection problems and needs quite alot of room (try telling the folks @ windriver about how little the KVM takes up and they can have a list of application an arms length that will ALL at once fit in the space )

most mobile phones infact I am at a loss to say which ones dont use the ARM arch CPU at their core

now the ARM Instruction Set maps apprently quite well to the java bytecodes so they can do that

but what are they doing about libs will be intresting I would have said that this would be fairly easy but SUN have done some strange licanceing

but it has good things for linux if they chose to implent the Frame buffer and use the pocketlinux distro and libs

http://www.transvirtual.com/pocketlinux.htm


well I hope it all turns out intresting

more info on ARM java

have fun

regards

john jones

Im sorry - but my money is clearly on the success of PocketLinux. What seems to be the best 'idea' is that we pair down Linux, build a GUI (why Xwindows? maybe XWindows is not 'appropriate' for Handhelds).

PocketLinux currently runs on Casio's E100, Compaq's iPaq & the VTech Helio. I think the 'real future' of pocket PC's, and if success for Linux will play out in this space is if a 'distro' is developed that is not to closely tied to one device - why not use Linux as the operating system to move the Handheld PC market away from the 'Apple' desktop idea to the 'IBM Clone' idea - where people install whatever (PocketLinux) OS on their current INSERT YOUR PDA HERE?

Have a look at all the PDA's that were @ Comdex 2000 - here at PDABuzz Look at all those beauty little PDAs, the question is are these obscure electronics companies from Asia going to build and 'market' a completely new OS for each of these devices? -OR- Would they be better off selling the device like a standard PC, with the attitude that users can find a OS to run on it. Wouldnt you rather buy a handheld for its hardware (the reason I bought the E100 10 months ago) or would you rather be forced to buy a OS/Hardware combo - where buying one may force you to compromise on the other.

Casio's E100 is a far better piece of hardware than anything fielded by Palm (even today - only advantage palm may have is size.. but its not that great an issue)

Palm's are small but their capabilities, speed, screens, audio(?) are less than optimal.

What I want is the PalmComputer market to move in the direction of the PC market - that way we can have our cake (hardware) and eat it too (PocketLinux).

What I would like to see: Both Palm and PocketPC get caught with their pants down (ala Apple in the 80s) while each of these "I have a wonder Palm PC but no 'marketing' or 'OS' to sell with it" (ala IBM Clone shops in the 80s) brings their product to market and aids Transvirtual in building PocketLinux. This basic change is bound to occur in the handheld space - Ill bet PocketLinux makes it happen...

:wq!

Given that tools such as Kaffe are no longer needed on Linux now that we have a complete, official JDK from Sun (with a better JIT as well, see the August LJ for info), I think that Transvirtual was thrown into a situation in which there was no future for them in the Linux world.

Kaffe still has an impressing list of supported operating systems and processors. And that list is not even complete, they changed it recently, there also is support for FreeBSD and I don't know what else is missing. They even claim to support the Hurd / i386 ;-) Even if the more 'important' of these platforms are now covered by IBM and Sun, it's great to have a free JVM that seems to be relatively easily portable to new platforms. So Kaffe is definitely needed! And although Linux JVM's are available, the diversity is a great thing to have.

http://www.transvirtual.com/pocketlinux .htm
http://www.transvirtual.com/poc ketlinux-screens.htm

... and the source is available too.

http://www.transvirtual.com/pocketlinux .htm
http://www.transvirtual.com/poc ketlinux-screens.htm

... and the source is available too.

The problem can be overcome, and has been overcome uncountable times, using ISO C.

Of course these problems are avoidable, but practice shows that all errors that a language allows you to be done will be done by someone, even if every good book on software engineering tells you not to.

The example may have been a poor one, but it's something everybody probably has seen in some ugly code snippet.

On the portability issue, I'm not sure how difficult it is to create a new VM / compiler. I guess it depends on how much the new platform differs from the other ones. Is it easier to create a Unix XY port if you already have a VM for Unix YZ? I would say so, but I don't know exactly, maybe one of the Blackdown people can answer this (some of them are reading slashdot comments on Java IIRC).

Sun has defined three different Java editions, including a micro edition, to address the problem of embedded systems and handheld devices. The micro edition only includes a subset of the functionality of the standard or enterprise edition. A description can be found on Sun's website.

On the number of platforms for which there are compilers and virtual machines, there are many. Kaffe alone has more than 30 OS / processor combinations supported.

Also take a look at this list of compilers and virtual machines, there are VM's and compilers for all kinds of systems. But for the older and more exotic systems the porting of a VM / compiler may not be worth the effort. Maybe the Java part of the GNU compiler collection can do something for them -- I don't know much about the status of Java support there.

Sun's earlyAccess JDK for Linux only runs on i386 machines. According to Kevin Hendricks, Sun spokesman only said that Sparc might eventually get supported

The published portions of the Java spec include the language syntax, the entire VM (all opcodes, the class file format, etc), all the classes under the java. packages and the Java Native Interface. It's all covered in the Java series from Addison Wesley. Off hand, I can't think of any other info that would be needed to build a fully compatible Java 2 standard edition. Of course it would be extremely difficult in practice, but isn't this exactly what Kaffe and Japhar are doing?

Vovida, OS VoIP
Beer recipe: free! #Source
Cold pints: $2 #Product

The moto "write once, run anywhere " suggests that there shouldn't even need to be a vote. FreeBSD's user-base exceeds that of some of the platforms Sun already actively supports ports for. Sun to complain that the MicroSoft Java extentions violate the write one, run anywhere moto but the truth is that for several platforms the introduction of newer versions of the JDK has done the same exact thing. The fact that Sun can complain about MicroSoft while ignoring platforms with a rapidly growing number of users such as Linux & FreeBSD baffles me. If it wasn't for the efforts of Transvirtual and MicroSoft's funding of the Kaffe project then I would have given up on Java being internet standard long ago.

See the platform page of the Kaffe Java Virtual Machine. They ported it to about anything... But it's only a 1.1 compliant VM.

The Blackdown ports overview can be found here. But AFAIK they're Linux only (although on several platforms). They have a pre-1.2 JDK which runs pretty well.

Transvirtual and the Kaffe Core Team have released Kaffe 1.0.5 (finally!). It's got a new JIT, new processor ports, a clean-room RMI implementation, kernel threads, and much more. For more information see http://www.kaffe.org/

Transvirtual Technologies, Inc. today released Kaffe OpenVM 1.0.5, the only complete Java implementation available with a true Open Source license.

The release heralds a major improvement in the reliability and performance of open source Java implementations. Tests conducted with various Open Source server side Java applications, including the popular Apache/JServ webserver and the Enydra Java/XML Application Server, demonstrate Kaffe out performs its Java Linux rivals by as much as 300%. Kaffe also proves more reliable than other Java implementations which simply hang when running under heavy load.

Transvirtual targets Linux as their primary server-side, desktop and embedded environments. Kaffe, developed using the Open Source model, once again demonstrates how Open Source can offer a better, cheaper, faster and more reliable product than proprietary alternatives.

This new release of Kaffe also offers a number of new features, including:

* Bundling of the KJC Java compiler from Decision Management Systems (http://www.dms.at/kopi) - a complete JDK 1.2 Open Source compiler suite.

* A complete Remote Method Invocation implementation written in collaboration with the GNU Classpath project (http://www.classpath.org).

* Support for the the popular Cobalt Network Web Servers.

* Support for the MIPS and StrongARM processors (Kaffe already supports Pentiums, Sparcs, Alphas and Motorola processors).

For more details on Transvirtual Technologies see their web site.

For more details on the Kaffe Open Source Project see The Kaffe Project Web Site.

All names and trademarks are the property of their respective owners.

Plus, there are implementions already under the GPL - notably Kaffe. The copyright holders also sell/license a commercial version through the company Transvirtual, and apparently have licensed it to Micros~1 in a deal involving some of their technology (like J/Direct).

In spite of Sun's attempt to keep Java in a corporate stranglehold, the free software community has produced several virtual machines (check out Kaffe and Japhar), a classpath implementation ( GNU Classpath), and a conformance test (see Mauve).

None of these are complete, but all are impressive and because of the GPL/ LGPL they will always be free software. Sure, Sun and other vendors offer the latest and greatest bells and whistles. Free software is inexorable -- it will catch up. I can wait, and those who can't are welcome to use proprietary products until then.

Compaq has licensed Kaffe for the Linux-based Itsy Pocket Computer

found this browsing their site (down the bottom of the page or search for compaq)...anyone know about this one?

"Kaffe is available under the Open Source initiative and comes with complete source code, distributed under the GNU Public License (GPL).

"Alternatively, the Kaffe OpenVM Custom Edition can be licensed from Transvirtual - an ideal solution for companies who cannot accept GPL code in their products."

I don't know about Microsoft's involvement, but it has been clear for a long time that Microsoft resents Sun's dominance in the Java world. I'm sure they'd be happy to have a non-Sun-controlled JVM. Whether or not they care enough having a non-Sun-controlled JVM to fund a GPLed development, I don't know.

Also if you read the article you can see that the journalist was very confused:

Java, which lets electronic devices communicate even if they run on different software,

Ho hum. probably a staff journalists first foray into the IT field.

Joe
--

• BISS AWT - A Java framework for building graphical applications.
• Jlint - Java program checker
• Kaffe - A virtual machine to run Java bytecodes. For many architectures, "just-in-time" native code generation is supported.
• Kiev - A compiler that extends and unites the Java and Prolog languages.
  
• Classpath - Essential libraries for supporting the Java language.
• SableCC - An object-oriented framework that generates compilers (and interpreters) in the Java language.

1. automatic non-classpath byte code verification.
2. RMI that doesn't hog port 1099, and can be tweaked with a security policy
3. speaking of security, the boolean sandbox model in 1.1.x is either too restrictive or too liberal for e-ware. JDK 1.2's fine-grained policies are needed to do anything non-trivial in Linux java
4. I could list this stuff all day

1. Microsoft can create clean room Java implementations.

   Duh! Can we say Kaffe? Japhar? Can we say "Sun has explicitly stated that this is ok for a very long time, even when HP threatened to do the same thing"?

   So, what exactly is new here? To me, the Judge just said "snow is white, grass is green, and MS can create Java clean room implementations". All three things are facts which have been known for a long time.

2. Microsoft's current products embody Sun's intellectual property.

   Another non-issue. Isn't that what the entire contract was about, the fact that Microsoft was licensing Java technology from Sun? So therefore it obviously follows that Microsoft products have Sun's Java technology in them?

3. Issue of Microsoft violating Sun's "Java" trademark.

   This to me seems also like an extremely straightforward point. Sun only allows certain Java products to officially use the logo and Java trademark; these are ones that pass their compatibility tests at minimum, and most likely ones that are based on their actual intellectual property. Clean room implementations do not a priori fit this category, so they can't officially bear the Java logo or name. (Unless Sun of course decides to explicitly give them this right.)

   So, if Microsoft follows Sun's rules, they can bear the logo and name, if they don't, they can't. This applies regardless of clean room implementation or not.

   This also seems to be another clear-cut issue unaffected by Judge Whyte's rulings (except peripherally, meaning that determining Microsoft violated the contract with Sun also means determining Microsoft violated use of the Java trademark).

The only significant thing here is that Judge Whyte has decided that Microsoft violated the Java license by not passing the compatibility tests. Why the emphasis? Because this is what the trial is about in the first place! (See here.)

This trial was not originally about clean room implementations; it's been known from the beginning that is acceptable. It's only about whether Microsoft had a contractual obligation to comply with the full Java spec and Sun's compatibility tests. From that regard, Judge Whyte's "preliminary rulings" are equivalent to deciding the trial: Microsoft is guilty.
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