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Debian On Compaq's iPaq Handheld
ArsonSmith writes: "It seems that at primates.helixcode.com
they have been able to get Debian GNU/Linux up and running on the Compaq iPaq PocketPC. This seems to be the first main distribution to be running on a handheld." The Debian Way may sometimes seem ponderous and conservative, but obviously that's not always the case. How'd you like to be able to apt-get new apps on your PDA? This is a detailed description which should interest anyone lucky enough to have one of these cuties.
One only needs a BSD
From our great friends and minds at NetBSD -- www.netbsd.org/Ports/hpcmips/
While many people have mentioned Handhelds.org, I just thought I'd point out that Transmeta is working on PocketLinux, a Linux distribution for handhelds, and is initially targeting the V-Tech Helio and the iPaq. Information at wwww.pocketlinux.com.
Erm.
Sorry, but you lose.
1) Saying "I am going to marked down to -1 for this, I'm such a rebel!" is pathetic. Its sad that some moderators still fall for it.
Why can't there be a "-1 Asked for it"
moderation option?
2) Linux is a kernel - it provides an API to program to. It has no CLI or GUI in the kernel.
*Any* user interface is "another layer".
On an iPaq, it makes sense to have a gui.
Of course you could stick it in the kernel,
but why? There is no guaranteed performance
improvement. Sticking things in the kernel
randomly is generally a bad thing. Especially if your reason is "another layer"... its called abstraction, folks!
Using linux gives a familiar platform for development, and it is easy to port.
Why the hell is it *bad* to port?
Of course, it would be better if the whole
world ran eros - www.eros-os.org - but it would need to be finished first... and linux is the best bet currently.
Well, I wouldn't want it :) I want an uber-simple interface for my little Palm. I love the PalmOS and UI. It is, in my wacky opinion, the best of all possible worlds :)
And this was completely contentless, oi! I need sleep.
Smart and funny trolling, anyway. Instructive, too. Are you a 'professional troll', or just couldn't help it?
Ciao.
Ciao
----
FB
DISCLAIMER : I never owned an organiser, nor I will in the near future ( paper scraps fit my needs, for now ).
Ciao
----
FB
Guys,
/. such tht a "funny" post like this, out of 22 comments, is the only one rated a "5" and, not only that, but is categorized incorrectly. Moderators, clearly you are doing something wrong here...
Seriously, what the hairy heck is happenning to
Specifically speaking, Moderators, read -1 on up and please don't read them sorted. Quality posts should be "5"s and not drivel like this.
I saw quite a few posts from people wondering why in the world anyone would want Linux on a PDA -- the main reason being the interface. You can't run shell commands using graffiti. Hacking in vi? Forget it.
But what about Psion? Has everyone forgotten about the Psion handhelds? They have *keyboards*. And the Revo model isn't much bigger than a Palm VII. Now that is a PDA I can imagine Linux on. So does Linux belong on a PDA? Well, if you have one with a keyboard then maybe. Although I've never heard of anyone putting Linux on a Psion, it seems like a much better target to shoot for than any Palm style handheld.
Of course, the Psions already have a pretty good OS on them. All you really need to use is the Telnet program and then you can remotely access a Linux machine anyway. I actually like it better this way, since I can start remote tasks and then disconnect my Psion from the 'net (all via my Nokia 8890). Remote Linux is the way to go. It turns your PDA into the power of whatever server you connected to.
Of course, this only applies to PDA's with a *keyboard* and a *telnet* application. Frankly, I don't understand why the Psions are never mentioned here on Slashdot. With all the hype about Unix here, you'd think everyone would be using a Psion by now. Try rebuilding a kernel from your Palm toy.
It's a good sturdy distribution, obviously well-designed for porting to other platforms, and it is easy to cut it back to the barest essentials because of its philosopy of lots of little packages rather than a few big ones.
Then when you have Debian/Linux, one day you can move to Debian/HURD which should have a smaller and more modular kernel perhaps better suited to 'small' hardware.
But even if neither is actually very useful, without some Free software presence in a given market sector, there is little or nothing to stop software becoming ever more closed and expensive.
Of course what I really want is Debian/Plan9 - but in the meantime Debian/Linux is as I say, a good place to start.
--
-- What do you need?
-- Gnus. Lots of Gnus.
Quake will take a little while longer. If anybody knows of any work being done on Linux Quake running on an ARM platform, I would appreciate you letting me know.
;)
That would kind of depend on whether Mesa software rendering is supported in StrongARM... And whether it'd fit of course
Your Working Boy,
If I buy one of these and pay for Billware, I want to keep it available. For games, eh? I look at the Compaq page and it's not clear at all whether I can run Linux off of flash, and retain Windows, or maybe swap chips around when I want to change O/S, or what the heck. Can anyone explain? Is LILO a possibility ?
Two things : ... ) with very minimal resource requirements. And think of the Linux virtual consoles : just tremove the need for multiple login and you have already 'desktop workspaces' almost out-of-the-box.
1 - Do you think/know that PalmOS GUI is *embedded* in the kernel ? I find it difficult to believe (though it could be). A 'logical' design would suggest that the GUI is a layer on the top of the kernel.Granted, X is too heavy for today handhelds (it's too heavy for many old PC, too )
2 - I'm not sure that you need a *graphical* interface in an handheld. Text-based widget libraries (ncurses?), with support for mouse (gpm-like) could give the same functionalities of a graphical interface (menu, windows, pop-ups, buttons,
Granted, graphical interfaces have an higher cool-factor, and seems to be more marketable. But a well-designed text based interface could close the gap, IMO.
That's it. For not having ever used an handheld, I talked too much.
Just my 20 lire, anyway.
Ciao
----
FB
I want ease of programming and compatability.
I have plans for a PIM that works on the desktop and palmtop. With a linux handheld I can write the same back end and change a few things (display, interaction) on the front end. I CANNOT do that on the 3COM or windows products as easily. Realize that PalmOS HAS NO FILESYSTEM accesible by programs. None, notta, all they have is executables and databases. No way to use fils system hiearchy to your advantage.
I want to write my programs in mature, free, multi machine, multi operating system languages.
-Jeff
Many modern PDAs have very fair RAM capacity, CPU speed, flash mem capacity, etc. I don't speak about Palms -- more about WinCE-targeted devices, like iPAQ. No wonder that linux kernel can nicely work there (especially when you build it right). But most current GUIs that linux uses were developed with desktop in mind and are not so great on a PDA. That is, when a decent PDA-oriented GUI becomes available for linux, it will be a very viable PDA OS choice :-) Porting existing (not still ideal for PDAs) linux distros to PDA platforms must help in developing a PDA-oriented GUIs and other tools for linux, so, Debian did a useful (not just 'cool' or such) job, IMHO.
Computers make very fast, very accurate mistakes
> 1) Now, let's look at Linux. No graphical interface, natively anyway. To get the GUI, you need an extra layer of programming
Look, I hate X as much as the next guy, but despite MS's best efforts, windows uses an "extra layer of programming" as well, called GDI. Yes, it's been made to run in kernel space, and Linux has framebuffers that do as well -- it's not a big stretch to imagine moving other display code into the kernel as well (KGI anyone?). X sucks, but there is nothing about Linux OR Windows that magically does graphics without a graphics API.
And get over your self-important persecution complex about "I'm going to get moderated down over this". Either it happens and you leave slashdot for kuro5hin or advogato, or it doesn't, but it's gotten really old to read this prediction of moderation behavior over and over.
I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
and its more than two and a half times faster than my poor cyrix 5x86-100 laptop that I do all my programming on (it gets somewhere around 33).
Even if you had hardware compatibility, the interface is sufficiently different that you would want apps written for it anyway.
For example, you really only want something to jot notes in a square window, not a full-fledged word processor, because a handheld (Palm-style at least) is a crappy word processing platform anyway. Think notepad vs typewriter.
People tend to use handhelds differently, too. I find I use my Palm in lots of short bursts, not for a prolonged period of time. Thus, the simple fast interface is a lot better than a complicated power user interface.
Anyway, there have been handhelds that were able to run DOS and Windows programs, I think HP made one, and they didn't set the world on fire. They never really took off because the machines were underpowered compared to a PC and the tiny screens and keyboards were awkward to use.
Jon
All opinions expressed herein are my own, and not those of my employers, who are appalled.
Wait a minute, there are drivers already for the NIC / wireless functionality? And, you spent ca. US $1,100 for the ;base station + 1 wireless NIC from Compaq to watch/do wireless streaming video? Not to mention CF/PC cards---or a pedestrain modem, for me? I am wondering how feasible/affordable is this kind of talk. I envy your disposable income level -- really. If what you mention is available under Linux, then fabulous! I'm not sure it is though. Please prove me in the wrong.
Me pican las bolas, man!
Thanks
--
Me pican las bolas, man!
Thanks
Jaco
Is there a project anywhere?
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Imagine a Beowulf Cluster of these? :P
-
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
Those are some pretty broad and sweeping claims to say that basically most every major software player gets ideas from debian, any conspiracy theories to back this up?
The big problem is that There's a Linux bias on slashdot. They don't report these sorts of things too often.
*BSD is actually easier to port to new architectures because it has been ported to many architectures.
Well, I think it's less that you have one more platform for linux and more that you have an open source OS for that device.
This way, you have an OS that you know /everything/ about (due to the source being available) on which to develop/hack whatever functionality you desire.
The linux OS provides the basic functions of an operating system, and you are able to develop your code.
I mean, isn't that the point of the whole "freedom" thing?
(Gawd. I wonder what writing perl would be like on a Palm, using Graffiti, in an airplane that was in turbulence.)
:-)
You would write yourself a readable perl program
2.) Nice name-calling. Now we know why you're an AC.
3.) "2.Unwieldy from weight or bulk." One could easily make the argument that the reason that Debian has such lengthy release cycles is that they like to include absolutely as much software as possible in 'main'. Bear in mind that I have four Linux-based computers (3 home-brew and an IBM Thinkpad) that all run Debian 2.2. I won't use anything else, since I'm addicted to apt.
My first step in setting up my iPAQ after getting the bootloader and kernel on it was following these instructions, now I can build whatever I want on it over an NFS root.
WWJD? JWRTFM!!!
don't really exist.
FTP is probably the only protocol simple enough for handhelds anyway...
signatures pending - ansa@kos.to - (dont mail there)
Calibrating delay loop... 87.04 BogoMIPS
it is quite a bit faster than a p5-133. My p5-133 laptop got 53.04.
- Bill
OK, counterpoint:
Most of people with Palms hardly use the PDAs for something more complicated than schedule keeping and notes taking. This limits the public to geeky mgmt types (yes I know there are companies that have fully blown ordering systems running on a palm, but they are exemptions, not rules).
Putting linux on a PDA as long it works with M$ outlook, Lotus Notes and/or OpenMail covers the same market as well as the people who do on site repairs, remote maintenance, network management.
I do not have a PDA and I will not buy one until I can do usefull stuff with it - namely have a proper network stack and a proper set of tools to do my job (i.e. fix networks and applications). So until I see a PDA with a PCMCIA slot or anything similar where I can stick an ether and/or a wireless lan I will drag my laptop with me.
Obviously, I would prefer to have something that fits in a pocket and does the same job.
So it is not a matter of being open, it is neither because you can. The reason is that it will be a dream tool for lots of geeky jobs (as well as have its classic functions).
Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
http://www.sigsegv.cx/
Too bad there's no graffiti symbol for the Meta key.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Remember the old HP hand-held PCs? They ran DOS and had a CLI. Atari made a similar product that was cheaper (in both senses of the word). These definitely qualify as PDAs. I had one of the Atari machines for awhile and it was quite usable. I sold it when I bought my Newton, but I wish I'd kept it because it's more useful than the WinCE machines by a long shot.
No sig? Sigh...
Palms are 16-20mhz depending on model.
I personally want to see a port of AmigaDOS (which ran on a 7.1something MHz 68000, 512kbytes or less ram, 512k rom, and about 500kbytes on floppy) to the Palm. Now THAT would open up some cool apps for handhelds. If only the folks who own Amiga now would open the source for the 1.3 release.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
The iPAQ palmtop has a 200MHz processor and 64MByte RAM. That's higher powered than my last PC, and much faster than my good ol' Amiga (which is still in active service)
/have/ to run all sorts of Server-type stuff on top of it, it's just people normally plonk the entire GNU Suite plus the X Window System on top of it.
I would contend that the tech is there, now, the distinction has blurred, and the tech is likely to be based on the processor in an iPAQ, which is a pretty popular CPU.
Linux is just a kernel - you don't
I, for one, agree that a full blown server installation of linux is near-pointless on such a machine (unless you want a mobile plug-in unit for a (web-site replacement based) disinformation campaign...imagine a james-bond esque figure leaving the iPAQ behind a table tapped into a spare network socket, hijacking IP packets... the mind boggles)
- But a palmtop-optimised one would be VERY useful - opening an XTerm on my palmtop connecting to a server I'm adminning over my mobile phone (I'm in Ireland, so we've had digital mobile phones for ages), for example.
I kludged VNC onto a (16MHz, 16MByte) Psion Series 5mx a few months ago - and thus actually opened up a full X desktop on my Psion.
This is tremendously useful for all sorts of things (at the time, I was messing with development releases of XFree 4, so each time my gfx card crashed, I just reset it remotely, without having to reboot the rest of the system.)
Since Linux already has all the remote admin infrastructure in place, it'd be great on a palmtop.
Choice of masters is not freedom.
pictures of an iPAQ running the handhelds.org distro are on this page.
If you're lazy, the pictures are here, here, here, here, and here.
and some genius trashes one by throwing LINUX on it? real good.
I also like the smart replies about Palms. An iPaq does not run PalmOS it runs WinCE (which is probably why they wanted to put Linux on it in the first place)
And if anyone from Compaq is reading this, could you try to actually make some of these iPaqs? I went to a convention and one of the door prizes was an iPaq -- but they didn't actually have one, they gave him a certificate! Can you imagine?
__________________________
"Oh, you hate your job? There's a support group for that, it's called everyone, they meet at the bar."
Linux on the iPAQ still needs a good amount of work. Most (nearly all) normal X apps are WAY too big for a 320x240 screen, and most window managers are designed for computers with a mouse and keyboard. When all you have is a pen, all you can do is click and drag. The RTC on the iPAQ *almost* works. Right now it doesn't, so everyone's iPAQ thinks it's December 31, 1969. There's still some bugs with the audio driver, but as of a couple weeks ago IR is working again.
The point of getting Debian usable on the iPAQ is not so you can have all the whiz-bang-cool X apps and things like that - it's the ability to have a full-fledged development environment on the machine *and* the ability to do native compilation. This will accelerate development of handheld linux (pocketlinux? LinCE?) and is generally a Good Thing, even if it isn't that sexy.
Well Windows CE _DOES_ have a TCP/IP stack... and the iPaq has a PCMCIA slot expansion object, and I'm not sure if they're wireless LAN setup is finished or not, but its definitly in the work.
Where's my pictures?
I want Linux on a Palm. *blink* Nothing like trying to type in command line commands using Graffiti.
(Gawd. I wonder what writing perl would be like on a Palm, using Graffiti, in an airplane that was in turbulence.)
-- Talonius
My reality check bounced.
That part of the Debian community is quite proud of that fact and rightly so. Debian's iPaq development came much later in the game... and i dont know of anyone around Debian who would say otherwise.
Must be a slow week and time for sensationalism sells (Helixcode that is).
Hmm...now we can root other people's palms during boring english lectures :)
__
Well lets hope that the companies that make handhelds, see that there IS a market for handhelds that run linux or at the very least can be made to run linux (not everyone may want linux on their portable.. i dont see why though) otherwise this is an interesting factor to look for for those of us that want to get a handheld but dont.
The Meaning of Life
great comedy company.
I really don't understand why it should be necessary to *port* programs over to handhelds. The Intel style chipset is versitile enough to work in a handheld easily enough, and Intel componets are certainly cheap enough to use.
Just think about it... how popular would notebooks be if they wern't intel compatible? I think we've gone down the wrong road with handhelds, and the first to turn things around will be the top dog for the next decade as handheld's poplarity explodes.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
All I want to ask is why? A desktop distribution (or server) made to run on a PocketPC. Requires constant network connection, and another machine. Seems similar to, oh, WinCE 1.0 and 2.0. Copy Windows 9x interface to PDA, expect it to be useful.
Compair this to the handhelds.org project to get PDA like features running on Linux on the iPaq PocketPC. And without a network.
And I'm assuming section 1.2.2 will be how to install into main memory so that a network card could be installed instead of the CF card...
Well I've been thinking of things like this.
:P
Certainly this is interesting for Hack Value, but would anyone seriously want Linux and X running on a machine like this?
I think that given the size of the screen and the input options for these palmtops, not to mention the cpu/mem constraints dont seem to fit the whole Unix/X way of doing things. I mean are you really going to write a shell script on one of these machines? Do some heavy hacking? I would prefer to develop on an emulator running on a workstation and test on these devices.
I think PalmOS has done a fine job for the UI on their palm machines, and I can't imagine trying to interact with one of these things with programs running in smaller-than-the-screen windows.
Then again maybe I'm just getting grumpy in my old age.
Flame away and call me shortsighted if you must.
ebw
It damn well does what you tell it to. Linux is NOT CLI, linux is a kernel, and a pretty cool one at that.
And computers need kernels. Now, you can put any layer on top you want, and, BTW, GUI's ALWAYS need an extra layer (its just hidden from you sometimes).
-- Crutcher --
#include <disclaimer.h>
-- Crutcher --
#include <disclaimer.h>
Erm. "Freedom" doesn't dictate my actions. I use the best tool for the job at hand. Having the source code for anything doesn't mean I know jack about it or that I will even bother learning about it. I know, I know, my loss for being such a goober; I'm just of the opinion that if one tool does not fit my needs, I do not waste time trying to extend it. I get a tool which does.
Currently, and for the foreseeable future, PalmOS more than provides everything I will need for a PDA.
Eric ze Kidder
While I agree I dont see why sticking Debian on this was such a great idea.
:) nothing wrong with this, its fun and you can learn a lot doing stuff like this
Have people ever heard of Lineo? Embeded Linux?
Really truly if a project to put Linux on a PDA were to be useful beyond the "look what I can do!!", there needs to be some sort of low level graphics system for displaying to things like a palm and such.
That is a start. Then you need to make this interface useful and easy to use.. IE: you develop on a desktop and then test apps on the PDA. Maybe if you can plug a mini Keyboard into the PDA it would be a little nicer and make it more of a "pocket PC".
Im trailing off, what I mean is installing a distro like Debian, or whatever on a PDA is kind of useless aside from it being fun to do.
If.. there was a group actually serious about writing a system in Linux to make PDA's more useful and open to (programmers) then I could truly seing this as beneficial since you would then have the world of Linux at your hands.
A scaled back version of gnome for PDA's is nice (cough cough) wasnt there a group working on that, whatever happened to them??
I think some groups are moving in this direction, but I don't really see any concentration of development being done to make headway to making the PDA's useful, I just see peoplke getting their jollies by showing off what they can do
But I do agree its usefuless is truly limited a great deal in usefulness.
Jeremy
Is this of any practical value? Well, a DPS-6 is likely about as powerful as an 80386, and it won't likely fit in your closet, so it's fair to say that it's not a terribly practical proposal.
Likewise, an iPaq has a pretty small screen, small memory, small secondary storage, and no keyboard, thus meaning that it's not a vastly practical computing platform on which to run Debian.
However. Consider two things:
Which means that while it's not spectacularly useful now, if some people scramble to work on it now, they may start having useful software and configuration tools (and boot tools, and...) by the time the hardware is ready to be really useful.
Nobody is going to power up a DPS-6 because they want to run payroll on it, or write TECO macros to calculate Pi because that's a particularly efficient way to do it; they'll do it because they can.
I think that in another year, there may well be enough hardware on PDAs to usefully run Linux. More power to those experimenting with it now that will make it deployable by then.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
If you hadn't kindly included that link to dictionary.com, I think I would have instead. (The last set of definitions is the closest in this context, I think.)
eh?
timothy
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
Actually X on the iPaq is very light and responsive. This whole X is to heavy for my Sparc 128 proc system with 456tera of ram is a bunch of crap. People looking for the next best thing. X is working great. less than 600k on on the ipaq now and plans to shrink it even more don't really seem like to heavy to me.
ArsonSmith
Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
Sounds like these little things are the perfect platforms for QNX- If only it ran on something other than x86...
What a pathetic achievement for Linux: being the first operating system to cause PDA's to crash.
"Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world." --U.S. Circuit Judge Harry Edwards, speaking to the FCC's lawyer
Remember, BogoMIPS are how many millions of times a processor can do absolutely nothing in a second. So the only thing that 87.04 tells me is that your processor isn't as good as mine for wasting time. nuf said.
I agree. As a rule, before you mark something up past +3, READ ALL THE COMMENTS FIRST. Make sure that before you put a comment past +3 that there isn't a comment posted by an AC languishing at 0 which deserves your moderation.
Something that is marked at +3 has *already* been recognized as a good comment. Hunt for the gems down low before you make a redundant moderation.
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
Transmeta is of course working on Mobile Linux, not PocketLinux.
:)
I need to stop thinking I can keep this stuff straight from memory, and actually read the page I link to.
My first guess would be the heat issue. Every Intel CPU I have ever come into contact with (including the 486 and the P120 beside me, which are the really cheap, low power-style chips like you've suggested) put off a lot of heat. I'm sure it's too much to be squished in with the rest of the tiny handheld circuitry to avoid damage.
-- sudo.ca
So this is why they haven't released their magic installer or evolution...
The obvious application is a combination lunchbag/computer
I could warm up a haggis by recompiling the kernel
134340: I am not a number. I am a free planet!
As a user of FreeBSD as well as Linux, why it doesn't it get ported to smaller devices? This may be bit too ignorant for an Ask Slashdot Q, so I am asking here. Anyone have particulars on the issues for (any) BSD to port to smaller devices (i.e.- not just "becuz *BSD sux")?
Actually if the goal is just to get linux onto another device, you're right...no justification. But the reality in this case is a little bit different from my perspective...
First off they are developing for a PocketPC (aka WinCE3.0) not Palm. Big ifference in hardware etc.
I have a Casio E105. Its a really nice little WinCE unit that unfortunately I can not upgrade to PocketPC. So basically no further OS & little application support & development going forward. Now when I invested in this unit (to the tune of $400+) I knew WinCE was going to have a finite life, but knowing that the OS and in rom apps were on a nice daughterboard I figured I would be able to upgrade for a reasonable amount. Woops missed the window, Casio says too bad shell out another $500. (Last Casio I buy)
I love this PDA, light, powerful, good memory/battery life etc. WinCE2.1 has some bugs and the UI has some issues. Most of the Apps I have loaded (or that came from MS/Casio) are well designed. I do not at all regret getting the Casio. It has served me very well already...but now I have this issue, already WinCe2.1 compatible SW is getting harder to find, and I have no upgrade options available for PocketPC...
Along comes linux for the VR series of chips...LinuxCE... familiar OS, fairly well developed, Open Source cross compiler, etc etc etc
Right now I have a fully functional Linux kernel booted up on it with Video, networking, serial, touch panel, sound,CF support etc...running a 2.3.9 kernel. Linux is entirely on a CF card, and I still have WinCE available with a reset. There are a lot of issues with Linux useability on the PDA right now, but they are not what you might think. Software keyboard drivers/apps (like the jot etc) are developing nicely...and userland is starting to be brought over. So it's not there but it is being actively developed and it is using tools I am more familiar with so if I need something or want to give a hand, I dont have to learn as much.
Now as to power/performance of the CE handhelds...here's part of the boot transcript:
and the
Now those BogoMIPS aren't anything to scream about by todays desktop measures but I think it's probably quite a bit more capable than you may have given them credit for. One of Linux strong features is it's ability to scale down and run on lower end HW quite well. It may not be there yet, but at least I have a hope of continued development for this platform with linux. The same most definately CAN NOT be said with Windows...and I don't relish the idea of replacing a PDA every year to two years... no thanks. If Linux can at all extend the usefull life of my Casio then it is worth every moment of my time and effort. The fact that it is Open Source etc is just a very nice bonus (for me at least.)
I'm a college student and mine was a gift from my parents to help me in school. And like the common college student I am dirt poor. So of course the first thing I did was scour the web for some cool freeware progs for it. To my chagrin there were basicly none, PocketTV was the only thing I could find. What is even worse is that I would have to pay to get a damn registry editor for the thing. Games are out of the question, they tend to cost $30 and up for anything remotely worthwhile. I guess I'm just not the market for this type of device. Execept I have already fallen in love with it. I have just finished reading "Timeline" on it, and have vowed not to read a regular book if I don't have to. The screen is crisp, and easily visible outside. Plus it's smaller than the average paperback, the pages don't rustle in the wind, or tear if you handle them too roughly. I take all my class notes on it, because the handwriting recognition is wonderful and is natural unlike Grafiti. So to the point now, Linux would be wonderful with it, if it can find a way to replicate the functions that already come with it. I wouldn't want to give up MS Reader, just to gain a few nice games. Plus I wouldn't want to give up the handwriting recognition. But I would love to gain some games, espicially XBill (I don't know why, but it is the perfect game when you don't feel like doing anything). I would love to ditch MS Media Player for XMMS. So save us college students! Make the linPaq a reality.
I don't know much about the iPaq, but I'd love to see any palm-sized device that can run a real OS and not cost $3000. (I disqualify anything for daily use that requires one to look like one is wired for a space shuttle flight.) If I have to bring up a keyboard on the display and tap keys with a stylus, I still wouldn't complain. I can think of several ways this could be useful. All the stuff you take for granted when you're in front of your computer, you could do at a resturaunt, and without taking up half the table to do it. Being able to plug into serial or Ethernet lines without to carry something in my hands the rest of the time would be nice, too.
Imagine a Beowulf cluster of people with the energy to write Beowulf cluster posts!
The Debian Way might seem ponderous and conservative if that's what you're looking for, but there is also a bleeding edge side of Debian which many people follow.
I apt-get my system most days to upgrade it to the latest packages from woody. Sure this sometimes lives up to it's name of 'unstable' but surpisingly infrequently. Most of the time this is just a good way to keep up with the latest bleeding edge packages.
I haven't got the time to program for the open source movement, but at least I can help with the testing :-)
) Now, let's look at Linux. No graphical interface, natively anyway. To get the GUI, you need an extra layer of programming. Now, look at the Palm. GUI through and though, no extra layer.
2) This is a good thing. Why? Because PDA's are obviously *NOT* desktop machine, or servers! They have a very limited capacity by todays standards. Every extra layer on something that small means more CPU, more memory, and more waiting.
I completely disagree. We're not talking about a palm, with a ~12 Mhz processor (IIRC). It's an iPAQ. It's got an over 200 Mhz processor. It's more powerful than my old desktop. It can afford to have an extra layer that gives you the extra flexibility to choose which UI you want, and keeps the UI from crashing the whole system.
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I think I may have crashed my Psion 3a in the past, but it didn't happen on things I want to do every day.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Remember CompaQ showing off Linux on an iPAQ at LinuxWorld? Maybe it wasn't Debian, but it was some flavor of Linux, and they'd done a nice job, and had a XWindows telnet font that was small enough to fit usable amounts of text in a window while still being readable, partly because of the gorgeously bright battery-burning screen. They also had some non-text apps running on it, but it was clearly the real thing.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Why does Linux have to run on *everything*?
I know this will just be marked -1 troll, but really folks, we complain about Billy G making windows into things it was never meant to be, yet here we have people trying to cram a linux kernel in to a PDA. Now I have to ask why.
Sure, it's cool. But that's it. No PDA to date has had a CLI, nor do I believe one would be benificial. In the case of a PDA, pointing and clicking is many times faster than *ANY* kind of text input developed so far.
1) Now, let's look at Linux. No graphical interface, natively anyway. To get the GUI, you need an extra layer of programming. Now, look at the Palm. GUI through and though, no extra layer.
2) This is a good thing. Why? Because PDA's are obviously *NOT* desktop machine, or servers! They have a very limited capacity by todays standards. Every extra layer on something that small means more CPU, more memory, and more waiting.
3) Which gets me to my point. I love linux, I run it at home, at work, and everywhere I can reasonably in between. I like it to develop code. I don't use it because it's user friendly, I don't use it because it's got all the killer games. I use it to be productive, mainly on a CLI. Now take away that CLI. What do you have? Well, you have Mac, Windows, BeOS, whatever pretty WM you can run to emulate any of the above or do about anything you want. But consider this, wouldn't a kernel that natively used graphics fair a bit better?
Now like I said, mod me down all you want, I use Linux, I love Linux, and it's a great alternative to any other OS. But I have to say, I think the Linux crowd here has gotten out the hammer and decided this problem looks like a nail. I think maybe it looks more like a push pin.
Free Online Woodworking Resources Directory
NFS is *absolutely* necessary for a development environment for something like this. It simplifies things greatly to have a limitless (essentially) storage system for devel/testing, and worry about making sure it fits onboard *after* you've got whatever you're working on actually working.
Cheers,
Rick Kirkland