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The Briq is cool too. 'Course it only runs Linux, but it's a G4!

Good luck with what? iMacs run Linux. Just ask these guys.

Is Mac OS X a Threat to Linux?

In short, yes! On March 24, Apple Computer, Inc. released its next-generation operating system, Mac OS X (the "X" is pronounced as "ten," for the version number of the operating system) to Macintosh addicts around the world. While this isn't such a big deal to some, others view it as a new beginning that could squash all thoughts of a desktop Linux for the general public.

What's this, "Apple out-maneuvering Linux?" you say? Well, maybe not as a server platform for the immediate future, but just think about this for a second: Would it be possible for Apple to deflate the hopes and dreams of developers worldwide of bringing Linux to the desktop? The short answer to this is yes, but it's more complicated than that.

Aside from the fact that an apple is a fruit and a penguin is a flightless waterfowl, there used to be a big difference between the Apple Macintosh operating system and Linux. Apple had a nice GUI; Linux did not. Linux had a command line; Mac OS did not. Linux is a multitasking OS that supports multiple processors; Mac OS is not. Linux runs on just about anything these days; the Mac OS runs on, well, Apple equipment. Linux is free (well, sort of, depending on your method of install); Mac OS X will set you back $129.

So, the lines were pretty clear about the differences between Linux and Mac OS. But lately, that clarity has been blurred as Apple rolls out Mac OS X to the public. The new Mac OS now has preemptive multitasking and support for up to two processors, which is still a far cry from Linux's support for up to 16 processors, but it's a move in the right direction.

Traditionally, the only control Apple users had over their system was via the Control Panels and scripting system functions with AppleScript, MacPerl, or ResEdit. However, with Mac OS X's BSD base, Apple users were given something they've always wanted: a latch to take a peek into Apple's core.

At the core of Mac OS X is a kernel built on the Mach 3.0 kernel, BSD 4.4, and Darwin (Apple's open source kernel project), giving network and system administrators the ability to use Unix programs and add them to their Macintoshes. When combined, these components offer a rock-solid operating system that's hard to beat. (OK, I know that Mac OS X has its fair share of bugs, so no flames, please.)

One of the advantages of Mac OS X is that it now offers Macintosh users with a command line on top of a slick, stable GUI, known as Aqua. With OS X's BSD core, Macintosh users will now be able to use GNU software. This means they will be able to run tools like Emacs, vi, Apache, and even XFree86 and the GIMP (something that Adobe Systems should fear). If you're looking for a place to download ports of GNU tools that run under Mac OS X, you should visit the GNU-Darwin Project on SourceForge.

One of the downsides of OS X is that it requires you to have a native G3 or G4 processor. This means you have to be running a G3 Mac, an iMac or iBook, a PowerBook G3 or better, or any of the G4 models and above. So, if you have an older 604 PowerPC-based Mac, you can't run OS X (that is, unless upgrade manufacturers, such as Sonnet Technologies release updates to their processor software). For now, though, if you want to run OS X your best bet is to run it on native hardware.

One group that stands to lose a chunk of the market is the Mac-based Linux distributions, such as MkLinux, LinuxPPC, or Yellow Dog Linux (YDL) from Terra Soft Solutions. Up to now, these were your best options for running Linux on the Mac, with LinuxPPC and YDL leading the pack. But OS X changes this landscape significantly. The downside to running Linux on your Mac in a dual-boot configuration (as with Windows) is that if you want to access any of your Mac apps, you had to either reboot, or install and run Mac-On-Linux. Neither option is ideal, but now OS X allows you to work in the command line, and run your Mac apps right along with them--no rebooting required.

I recently installed YDL 2.1 on my iBook. I've been overall pretty happy with the distribution. It has its high points (nice software included) and its low points (installer didn't install yaboot properly, I had to fix it myself). I'd recommend it to anyone wanting to run Linux on their Mac...

Now, supposing I decided I don't like OS X (I like it fine so far, but I haven't messed with it that much), well, then I can switch to Yellow Dog Linux, which is a Linux distribution designed specifically for Macs. Since they concentrate on one individual vendor, their compatibility should be pretty good. (I'm surprised there isn't an IBM Linux distribution out there.)

This is not to say that building a laptop from scratch isn't an interesting idea, but I wouldn't be able to do it myself, so I figured I'd come up with an alternative.

I assumed the writer was referring to Yellow Dog, SuSE, Mandrake, and Debian. Adding LinuxPPC and MkLinux brings the tally up to six, and Linux-m68k makes seven. Linux on the Mac is flourishing.

While technically feasible, we have not yet posted instructions on using 'yup!' to update a YDL 1.2 system to YDL 2.0. Please stay tuned as we work out these details.

While technically feasible, we have not yet posted instructions on using 'yup!' to update a YDL 1.2 system to YDL 2.0. Please stay tuned as we work out these details.

While technically feasible, we have not yet posted instructions on using 'yup!' to update a YDL 1.2 system to YDL 2.0. Please stay tuned as we work out these details.

While technically feasible, we have not yet posted instructions on using 'yup!' to update a YDL 1.2 system to YDL 2.0. Please stay tuned as we work out these details.

While technically feasible, we have not yet posted instructions on using 'yup!' to update a YDL 1.2 system to YDL 2.0. Please stay tuned as we work out these details.

YellowDog Linux will run on it. Take a look, they have an ibook on their home page.
YDL

Of course it may be a rotating graphic, so trust me that there was an iBook on the page.

YellowDog is my favorite and most up to date distro out there.

I will have mine as soon as my ship comes in this fall.

given that most linux distros come with an office suite (K) compiler and everything else linux users take for granted as free, it's not really a fair comparison. as a windows user, i spent a hundred bucks every time there was an upgrade but 3.0 was included with my first pc. as for linux, i paid $100 CND for yellow dog 2.0 but most of that was shipping costs (note to yellow dog, you're international shipping rates are ridiculous)

Moderator: This user's post was a pun, not a troll.

Check out:

http://www.thedukeofurl.org/reviews/misc/yellowdog 20/7.shtml

from the review, or more specifically:

http://devel.yellowdoglinux.com/rp_yup.shtml

I certainly preferred this rather than some lamer posting 'Weee 1st post!'.

I do agree that Photoshop is better than Gimp, especially on mac. It blazes everydng else away. But damn its expensive. That alone would make me look at alternatives, plus the fact that gimp actually has all that i need.
I wount be using it on macos though, because YellowDog Linux runs smoothly on my iMac.

It takes some doing from the press release site, but you can make your way to the supported platforms page.

or you can click here

YDL 2.0

I'm sure it's great, but it won't work on my Power PC 7100AV at home.

As a PowerPC owner, why should I care?

For starters, more operating systems on your hardware mean more choices, and I've never seen a case where more choices was a bad thing. Besides, having some serious competition on their own hardware will just keep Apple honest, and maybe keep their prices down (MacOS X is overpriced IMO).

Also, if you have any older PPC hardware, such as pre G3 machines, OS X isn't an option and Linux runs quite well on the older hardware. Why throw out that PPC7200, it makes a great IP Router or nice mail server, or decent http server... etc. etc.

and then there's Mac OS X. OS X has most of the cool stuff you can get out of a *NIX box, plus a really nice GUI.

While I agree that the GUI in MacOS X is pretty, the rest of the OS leaves a lot to be desired. On my Dual Processor G4s, the most recent release runs slower than the public beta did. Also, I'm had a hell of a time getting open source software to compile on MacOS X that was a breeze to install on Linux. PostgreSQL, SSH are a couple that I just gave up on, and eventually I gave up on MacOS X altogether.

I also have many issues with MacOS X, other than getting decent software to compile on it. 1) It doesn't ship with up to date utilities (vi, but not VIM is an example). 2) I'm really more of a BASH kind of person 3) I really HATE all those @#$@#$ directories with uppercase letters!!! I'm writing a shell script, not a @#$@#% novel! 4) The performance leaves a lot to be desired. 5) I like windowmaker damnit! Why can't Apple put the NeXT interface into MacOS, at least as an option. It isn't like they didn't buy the damn company! 6) Anti-alised fonts all over the place give me a headache.

I could go on, but this isn't an anti-MacOS X thread.

Besides, I now have several G4s running Linux and they have been rock solid. More info on these servers here.

maybe they'll be the first to make a Linux distro for PPC that doesn't suck

Well, I don't know what distros you've been using, but I've been very happy with YellowDog, and they are about to ship version 2.0, starting tomorrow.



And, no, I don't work for Terrasoft (the distributors of YellowDog), I simply really like their product.

As a PowerPC owner, why should I care?

For starters, more operating systems on your hardware mean more choices, and I've never seen a case where more choices was a bad thing. Besides, having some serious competition on their own hardware will just keep Apple honest, and maybe keep their prices down (MacOS X is overpriced IMO).

Also, if you have any older PPC hardware, such as pre G3 machines, OS X isn't an option and Linux runs quite well on the older hardware. Why throw out that PPC7200, it makes a great IP Router or nice mail server, or decent http server... etc. etc.

and then there's Mac OS X. OS X has most of the cool stuff you can get out of a *NIX box, plus a really nice GUI.

While I agree that the GUI in MacOS X is pretty, the rest of the OS leaves a lot to be desired. On my Dual Processor G4s, the most recent release runs slower than the public beta did. Also, I'm had a hell of a time getting open source software to compile on MacOS X that was a breeze to install on Linux. PostgreSQL, SSH are a couple that I just gave up on, and eventually I gave up on MacOS X altogether.

I also have many issues with MacOS X, other than getting decent software to compile on it. 1) It doesn't ship with up to date utilities (vi, but not VIM is an example). 2) I'm really more of a BASH kind of person 3) I really HATE all those @#$@#$ directories with uppercase letters!!! I'm writing a shell script, not a @#$@#% novel! 4) The performance leaves a lot to be desired. 5) I like windowmaker damnit! Why can't Apple put the NeXT interface into MacOS, at least as an option. It isn't like they didn't buy the damn company! 6) Anti-alised fonts all over the place give me a headache.

I could go on, but this isn't an anti-MacOS X thread.

Besides, I now have several G4s running Linux and they have been rock solid. More info on these servers here.

maybe they'll be the first to make a Linux distro for PPC that doesn't suck

Well, I don't know what distros you've been using, but I've been very happy with YellowDog, and they are about to ship version 2.0, starting tomorrow.



And, no, I don't work for Terrasoft (the distributors of YellowDog), I simply really like their product.

--

and there isnt even a web server platform that runs on the mac!

Really? Then what's this? Oh, and how about this? And then there's this, and this! Don't forget this. And finally, there's this! Now I figure either you meant to say something else, or you just don't know what you're talking about. If it's the former, perhaps you should clarify. If the latter you just lost alot of credibility in my mind.

-----
"Goose... Geese... Moose... MOOSE!?!?!"

See Yellow Dog Linux's site for more info.

Dancin Santa

Try either Yellow Dog or SuSE's PowerPC distribution. Both should support the same platforms that LinuxPPC supports.

There's also a PowerPC version of Debian if you want to use apt-get (which, although I have never used it myself, is supposedly comparable to BSD's ports).

Or, wait two weeks and swallow the blue pill....


--

--

--

At work we run our tertiary DNS on an old Mac.(macdns.cait.org) Our secondary and primary are hosted on some old MIPS boxen running OpenBSD. We used to have it on a 6100/66 with MkLinux, but since that distribution seemed to be going nowhere we moves up to a machine with a 120 MHz 604 in it. Performance is satisfactory, but then again that particular machine doesn't get hit particularly hard. For a Linux distro, I like Yellow Dog as it's designed ot be a server variant, not workstation. My suggestion would be to try it and see how it performs. Do a basic install of the OS and see how it performs for you, then clean it up if and/or when you decide it's good enough.

It seems there is a real `Redhat == Linux' like syndrome with PowerPC GNU/Linux except its `LinuxPPC 2000 == Linux on PowerPC'

All of the distributions that run on PowerPC use the same Linux kernel, thus all distributions which run on PowerPC will also run on this new machine.

Just a few other GNU/Linux distributions which run on PowerPC hardware including this PowerBook:

Debian
SuSE
YellowDog

--

If you have a newer (read: iMac or G4 series) PowerPC Mac, you can run OpenBSD/powerpc. For any other PPC system, try NetBSD/macppc. If you're running a 680x0 version Mac, see OpenBSD/mac68k or NetBSD/Mac68k. To compare with a linux distro for mac, try Yellow Dog Linux, Linuxppc.org, mlinux, or Linux/m68k. I believe Debian runs on macs, too.

Personally, my experience with linux was not so great (I used redhate 5.2 and 6.0 neither of which was very stable or powerful) so I would recommend BSD which is both (not to mention secure as all hell if your machine supports OpenBSD). Perhaps I will give Linux another go when I get another box to put it on. Honestly, it doesn't really matter, as long as you are committed to using a free Unix-like OS and are willing to put in the time to learn the OS, pretty much any BSD or linux will do. Just find what agrees with you most and what is best for your tasks.

-----

Yellow Dog is currently a "server" distribution, which means that it has limitations in the GUI area, but they're working on a more "consumer" distribution which may address the limitations I've found, which include limited number of colors (256 on my stock 8600 video) and a fairly limited set of accessory programs for doing things like burning CDs, etc.

You probably want to search the linuxppc-user list archives from here and check out penguinppc.org for other useful resources and info.

As for the iBook, the archives indicate that it does work quite well. There doesn't appear to be support for Firewire though (or at least not good support).

The cube also seems to run LinuxPPC just fine as does those new dual processor G4s (drool). Though the multiprocessor support is in early stages. Did this just not port well from Intel or does multiprocessor support generally suck in Linux?

Aside from LinuxPPC, you may also want to check out YellowDog which is a very similar distro to LinuxPPC but apparently has an auto-update feature similar to apt-get as well as rpm support. Then of course there's SUSE.

Personally, I'd strongly recommend buying a PPC for Linux - the computers are substantially faster than Intels (despite the Mhz ratings, look at the benchmarks). I'm also looking at buying an iBook to go with my G3 desktop so I'd like to hear your experiences with it. Oh, and yes you can buy multi-button mice for Macs. Get one. :)

Adrian Sutton.

You should check out Yellow dog Linux. It runs a modified version of Redhat and is 100% stable. I run it on an old 8500 with a g3 card with no problems. X isn't as fast as my athlon box, but it's decent.

We had a dreadful time getting PPC to work on our Mac, but yellow dog runs like a charm.

I am wondering whether the interviewer was being kind, or had only done a portion of their homework.

Cable wrote:

MacOS, this is going away once OSX comes out. The problem here is that it only runs on the Macintosh Platform, the most recent PowerPC Macs that is. The old 68K Macs can't run it, and there are no plans to port it to the WINTEL platform like BeOS was ported. All I see OSX as is just yet another BSD Unix hack. Might as well use BSD on PC systems then, you may not have that Aqua interface, but at least you can have multiple platforms BSD can run on and have the scalability that Mac hardware lacks.

With all due respect, you don't know what the fsck you're talking about.

Darwin (the BSD hack underlying Mac OSX) has already been ported to intel hardware.

New OSX-capable Macs can be bought for as little as $800 and there is a large base of fanatically loyal Mac users who will purchase new hardware, if they haven't already, to make the upgrade.

The issue of interface is not a trivial one to the people who use Macs, and the quartz layer is a powerful technology that will be highly useful to the graphic artists who have always been a core Mac constituency.

MacOS isn't "going away" anytime soon.

The stuff about "the scalability that Mac hardware lacks" is just bizarre. Do you mean that the OS lacks scalability, or the hardware?
You can cluster Macs...
And you can run linux on Mac hardware (LinuxPPC, Yellow Dog Linux, Debian, SuSE Linux)-- are you saying Linux isn't scalable?
Umm, whatever.

It's probably a good idea to do a little research on this stuff before you spread misinformation, unless you want to look dumb and piss off Mac users.

Part of the problem is Altivec patch for GCC produces binary incompatible binaries (with older non-ativec machines). Also, to get the most out of Altivec, you have to call Altivec instructions, which if you don't #ifdef, you will create source that won't compile on normal GCC (and work on non-G4 machines).

Altivec.org has both patches and rpms of patched gcc (and binutils too, I beleive). Also see the Yellow Dog Linux Devel Page, it has some altivec info.

As you might know the big IBM RS6000 servers run on a PowerPC chipset, and YellowDog is the only distribution that I could successfully install on our F50. There are still some problems like Linux only using 512 Megs of RAM instead of the 2 GIGs and one CPU being used instead of the 4 CPUs that we have, but otherwise it's ok. I still need to try the brand new patch that is said to solve parts of those problems, though. If this turns to be ok, then the only minor issue would be the driver for the video card, that currenlty only offers 800x600x256, but it is not so important.

I can tell you that running Linux on those huge beast is definitely c00l ! And you should just see those amazed faces when you restart the RS6000 and your colleagues come by to curiously watch how an AIX 4.x server boots and the first thing they see is a cute penguin in the top left part of the screen. And then comes the really sweet stuff: having to choose to login under KDE or Gnome! Ah! No more CDE! What a pleasure! And how great it is to use a couple of CPU cycles of the beast just to [g]rip some CDs or run a Napster clone. YellowDog was also very attentive to small details and while the LCD screen doesn't show anything after AIX has finished booting, under YellowDogLinux you can read this little tag:

Linux PowerPC 2.2.12

Ain't that cool? Well, I can tell you that in a rack of undescriptive boxes, that small inscription does not pass unnoticed.

That being said, did anyone succeed in installing YellowDog on the new IBM babe, the F80? We might get one soon here and I was wondering if I could run YDL Champion Server 1.2 on it. Any success stories?

I tried to install the previous version of Evolution on my Yellow Dog box, and gave up after two hours. Bonobo wouldn't compile, OAF just whined at me, and some others were generally uncooperative. It's just too much.

Yes

there is Yellow Dog Linux here. and my fave, Linux PPC, which can be downloaded here.
personally, I have Mandrake 6.1 installed on Virtual PC-- I find that easier to manage-- but whatever works.

dj sw

As you know MacOS X will support SMP.

However, you may not know that one could install Linux on a Dual-Proc G4 as well.

Refrag

We use USB mice on it all the time (since USB is the only external interface on it). It recognises them no problem. Also, while there isn't any real APM yet, you can check the battery level with a Gnome panel app.
-legolas

i've looked at love from both sides now. from win and lose, and still somehow...

Seriously OT, but I figure I should help a little here - a Performa 6116CD will not run LinuxPPC, YellowDog, or any of thos other derivatives - you are pretty much stuck with MkLinux as far as I know.

This is because the 6116 is basically a Power Macintosh 6100 with a different software bundle, and the 6100 is a NuBus Mac, not a PCI Mac.

Sorry to say it, but you are out of luck with YDL and most other distros.

-Smitty

I had thought that the MacOS multitasking, at least, was kind of a kludgey patch. Maybe I'm wrong, but the few times I've been on a Mac lately the only thing that happens when I try to multi-task is that it crashes.

Threading, I'd have to say definitely not; and while MacOS supports multiple processes, it is truly a kludge that was added on as an afterthought.

But....I just got a Performa 6116cd from a friend; I'm gonna go ahead now and try to put that there Yellow Dog on it; thanks for the lead! I can't wait to benchmark it against x86 boxen, since the tests I always see are skewed to the point of uselessness.

---
Note that the reason Be can't make the BeOS run on PowerMac G3 and G4 machines is not because of their processors but because Apple won't give Be the specs for the proprietary chips on the motherboards of the new machines.
---

Ah yes. Apple has been terrible about releasing the information used in order to port alternative operating systems on their hardware, eh?

Darwin
MkLinux
LinuxPPC
NetBSD
Yellow Dog Linux
Debian
SuSE

Think for yourself. No matter what Be's propaganda says, Apple has nothing to lose from Be porting their OS to their hardware, since they still gain sales either way. Perhaps they don't want to subsidize Be's development, but that's besides the point. Be's argument was questionable from the beginning, and is twice as questionable now that Apple has released Darwin.

Don't get me wrong - I love BeOS, but the company behind it doesn't seem to have any trouble hiding reality from their userbase. They got seduced by Wintel and they know it.

- Jeff A. Campbell
- VelociNews (http://www.velocinews.com)

For those of you who are asking the inevitable question, "What about linux support"? I think you should have some faith in the good people of the world out there. You might want to see some of the stuff that TerraSoft Solutions is doing with YellowDog Linux and BlackLab Linux. I'm not sure how much a lot of this applies, but they've gotten it to run on some of CSP's Quad G4 boards and other nifty configurations.

There are several other linux ppc distributions under way including:

Debian Linux
Rock Linux

Turbo Linux
APUS Linux for Power Up Amigas
Yellow Dog Linux (Based on RedHat)

I had a lot of trouble trying to actually find this code. It may be in the yellowdog cvs but the server seems to be down, as is the ftp server.

They do say to go to altivec.org to download the gcc and binutils. It's in the tools section behind a "you must sign up for our email forum" form. The packages there include a new binutils, gcc, gdb, and libc to support the altivec extensions.

Here are the direct links, for the curious:

• README
• PC(?) binaries (7.6 MB)
• Solaris binaries (7.3 MB)
• Linux binaries (10 MB)
• common binaries (10 MB)
• patches (288 KB) what you really want to look at
• source (30 MB) the complete, patched source to gcc+binutils+gdb+newlibc
• b inutils rpm
• gcc-a ltivec rpm. intalls in /opt.
• g cc-altivec-c++ rpm. Also installs in /opt.

I had a lot of trouble trying to actually find this code. It may be in the yellowdog cvs but the server seems to be down, as is the ftp server.

They do say to go to altivec.org to download the gcc and binutils. It's in the tools section behind a "you must sign up for our email forum" form. The packages there include a new binutils, gcc, gdb, and libc to support the altivec extensions.

Here are the direct links, for the curious:

• README
• PC(?) binaries (7.6 MB)
• Solaris binaries (7.3 MB)
• Linux binaries (10 MB)
• common binaries (10 MB)
• patches (288 KB) what you really want to look at
• source (30 MB) the complete, patched source to gcc+binutils+gdb+newlibc
• b inutils rpm
• gcc-a ltivec rpm. intalls in /opt.
• g cc-altivec-c++ rpm. Also installs in /opt.

I had a lot of trouble trying to actually find this code. It may be in the yellowdog cvs but the server seems to be down, as is the ftp server.

They do say to go to altivec.org to download the gcc and binutils. It's in the tools section behind a "you must sign up for our email forum" form. The packages there include a new binutils, gcc, gdb, and libc to support the altivec extensions.

Here are the direct links, for the curious:

• README
• PC(?) binaries (7.6 MB)
• Solaris binaries (7.3 MB)
• Linux binaries (10 MB)
• common binaries (10 MB)
• patches (288 KB) what you really want to look at
• source (30 MB) the complete, patched source to gcc+binutils+gdb+newlibc
• b inutils rpm
• gcc-a ltivec rpm. intalls in /opt.
• g cc-altivec-c++ rpm. Also installs in /opt.

Thanks to the folks at Terra Soft: Yellow Dog Linux!

See it in action on a prototype.... Applefritter

...will Mac OS X run on non-G3/G4 Power Macs?

I'm not talking about Darwin-plus-goodies, I mean the commercial, shrinkwrapped-by-Apple stuff.

I'm sticking with Mac OS 8.6 right now on my Mac, and the answer to this will determine if I eventually reformat to put Mac OS X on it or some PPC-based Linux.

On the plus side, I do have three choices! Yellow Dog Linux, LinuxPPC, or Debian's PPC port...

Jay (=

We've just received a RS6000 F50 and nobody at the office seems to be interested in it for the next couple of weeks. I was wondering if I could install Linux on it and play with it for a few days before the machine gets its final OS.
For one, does PowerPPC 2000 support RS6000?
Then what about YDL? It seems they support it, but the note from their site says something like this:

What hardware is officially supported by Yellow Dog Linux?
[...]
- IBM RS/6000 B50, 7025-F50, and 43P model 150 (in "unimode")

What's unimode?

Man, I just installed YDL CS1.1...looks like I'll be getting LPPC2K! With the built-in Mac-On-Linux support (I'm having trouble with MOL on YDL), RH6.1, and the GUI installer, I'm wicked impressed.