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Linux PPC Boots On The Powerbook G4 Titanium
Therlin writes: "As this article explains, LinuxPPC 2000 Q4 succesfully boots on Apple's new PB G4. The Linux Kernel, X Windows and the LinuxPPC work. They also indicate that the internal modem and ethernet will probably work, but it hasn't been tested yet." It's really sad to see
such a sweet machine crippled by lack of proper mouse buttons.
I use 3-button emulation on my PowerBook G3 when running linux. You can assign any mappable key to any button. I use fn/ctl and fn/alt. These don't clash with anything, and I LIKE using the trackpad with this button combo OVER using a 3-button mouse. Also, I end up using the trackpad "tap" over the existing button as the 'left' one.
I felt much the same for a long time. Trackballs just seemed counter-intuitive and, although mice weren't perfect, they seemed best.
When I started travelling more with my busted-all-to-hell laptop with no functional internal pointing device, I started using a Trackman Marble. I've since replaced all mice on all of my computer equipment both at home and at work with one, because I'm more efficient and controlled with a trackball. I've also found that it's alot more comfortable on my poor wrists.
By the same token, I do still have a few mice kicking around for when I play any FPS, because a trackball just doesn't do the trick.
-Jer
If the most original improvement that the ./ moderators can come up with is the addition of a couple of mouse buttons, I'd say that they're getting a little too far away from being geeks.
I suppose nobody ever heard of USB mice?
OS X isn't out yet, mainly. The new features demo'd by Steve at MacWorld were put in there during the Beta test phase. OS X is still being finalized and IMHO the Public Beta is still a bit crusty to go over to it full time.
However, I'm counting down the days to March 24 when the OS X final 1.0 is released. By then, all the debug code will be removed and the graphics accelertion will be finalized (there's NONE in the PB)
So, if you want a *NIX for your PowerBook, LinuxPPC is the one to get.
Pope
Freedom is Slavery! Ignorance is Strength! Monopolies offer Choice!
It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
If Slashdot and Slashdotters don't quit whinin' about Apple and their one mouse button, there will be spankings all around. See, that's the reason there's USB PERIPHERALS, so you can ADD a mouse with 8 buttons, or however many will make you shutup and enjoy a kick ass machine. So deal with it and move on.
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"Cogito Eggo Sum: I think, therefore, waffle."
Ah, but I was referring to the logic board, not the case. With the exception of the G4, it's basically the same overall design (i.e. not one of the UMA-2 based boards, which will probably be on the next upgrade in 9-12 months). It has been reformed to fit in the new slimmer case, but the underlying motherboard technology is very similar, if not identical.
My Pismo also supports one gigabyte of RAM, although Apple never sold it with such a configuration. The UMA-2 machines are supposed to all be PC133, so I'm sure eventually the PowerBook will support it. Hopefully by then it will be cheaper and battery technology will have advanced to make up for the extra power consumption of the faster bus.
And, the graphics chipset is actually the same as my model, a Rage 128 Mobility with the same 8 MB of VRAM. That's my biggest disappointment. I was hoping the Radeon Mobility chipset would be available, or that they'd at least bump up the VRAM to 16 MB. Dell sticks up to 32 MB in their Inspirons, but Apple still leaves only 8 MB in their PowerBook, iBook, and iMac, and 16 MB (by default; the 32 MB Radeon is an option) in the Cube and bottom-level G4 desktop. Boo!
I like the TiBook, but I'm waiting until the next revision to unload my Pismo for one.
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I use Macs for work, Linux for education, and Windows for cardplaying.
When I first thought about getting my iBook, I was concerned with having only one mouse button. After a very short time I actually started to like it!
:-)
My normal hand positions when using the trackpad are roughly this.
I keep the fingers of my left hand on function, control, option, and apple; and use my right hand on the trackpad. I just use the thumb of my right hand to hit that one big button.
I really appreciate not having to make all those little side to side finger motions in order to hit a different mouse button. I just hold down the function key I want (without any side to side movement of my left hand) and whack that big button with my thumb (no additional side to side movement of the right needed, as I can reach that big button from any position on the pad).
Now that I'm used to it, it's great
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Mostly because for the desktop systems, there's no hacking needed.
I have a dual G4 tower that I only run Linux on (I develop on it.) I found that the one button mouse made it pretty difficult to work with. XFree86 supports "faking" multibutton mice, using the control/shift/option keys - but what happens if you need a combination that is already occupied by the "workaround?"
So, I just went out and bought myself two logitech optical USB mice (one for my development pc). There was no additional configuration required, it was just seen as having more buttons than a normal apple mouse.
Now, for laptops - that's a different story. I'm not familar with the internals of a powerbook, but I'd imagine that the trackpad is hardwired. I've seen USB trackballs that "clip" onto the side of the laptop so no desktop surface is needed. For the most part, I'd think that hacking a multi button trackpad into a laptop would be more trouble than it's worth -- besides, given the modular nature of desktops, it's easier to replace a $200 motherboard or a $50 mouse if you mess it up -- but I would want to replace a $3500 laptop whose warranty I just certainly voided.
Just my two cents.
-Jeff
Most Mac users probably don't even know what UNIX is, and while trying to convince them that they should load up some l337 UNIX-ripoff might be a fun way to spend a Saturday afternoon, it is an excercise in futility. UNIX/Linux people, on the other hand, can not justify buying Apple hardware just to run GNU/Linux, because you can build a dual-processor SMP Pentium III box with a shiteload of RAM for half of what an SMP G4 will cost you. No, it won't be RISC, but if you want a RISC box to run GNU/Linux on, buy a real UNIX workstation, like a SUN, HP, SGI, or IBM. (And while you're at it, try running a real UNIX on it. ;-) You also won't get Altivec -- but hey, were you really going to be running Photoshop on Linux anyway?
I understand that there are people out there, like Malda, that have uses for both GNU/Linux and MacOS, and to you, I say: if you can afford a G4, you shouldn't be dual-booting, for God's sake. Hey, Malda! Does Sarcasta ever cry out "Oh, Mr Jobs!" in bed?
The only demographic which has a use for Linux PPC on Mac is owners of "Doorstop class" hardware who want to run El Cheapo headless servers for HTTP, DNS, routing, et al.
Slightly offtopic, but... the art department at a company my friend works for recently bought a dual-proc G4. No, wait, stop laughing, I haven't reached the punchline yet. The joke is that it's running... wait for it... MacOS 9! Yep, all the second CPU s doing is keeping the first warm and cozy. :-) The machine cost $4k, so I hope they at least buy OS X when it is released so that the nice hardware won't go to waste. MacOS X will make Linux PPC on Macs obselete, by the way. It's BSD Unix with MacOS's multimedia capabilities, which even I would be willing to pay for.
Anyway, this "news" pales in comparison the the story about Windows 2000 booting on G4s. But I'll take my NT zealotry elsewhere...
All generalizations are false.
--
I like to watch.
Second, the article you linked doesn't even compare "liquidmetal's" strength to titanium. It says it's "very strong and very hard," but not any more than another metal.
What it does say:
- the liquidmetal alloy transfers more energy when striking a ball than either titanium or steel.
- Lighter than stainless steel but heavier than titanium, Liquidmetal Golf officials assert the alloy has a lower vibrational response than the other two traditional materials. That should translate to superior feel and less shock at impact.
- Liquidmetal is non-crystalline, and thus bears no weak and inconsistent spots.
- a proprietary alloy
- exclusive licensing agreement with Cal Tech
Since it's heavier than titanium, you probably wouldn't want to use it in a notebook computer, where every ounce counts.The fact that it's non-crystalline just means that a sample of liquidmetal is uniform, so it won't have a weak spot that fails before the rest of the sample.
It's unfortunate that universities now enter exclusive contracts, instead of publishing their findings to benefit everyone.
Finally, the golf clubs are over $400 each! If liquidmetal was so great, why aren't all golf clubs made of it now?
...to see such a sweet OS crippled by lack of proper GUI design.
/. has shown just how far downhill we've come. The sad thing is that it's the editors that are dragging Slashdot down.
This is obviously a troll. So is this:
Its really sad to see such a sweet machine crippled by lack of proper mouse buttons.
When the Slashdot editors insist on trolling on the front page, why do we expect to see rational commentary in the comments area? The recent Hooters link and other total crap posted on
Gah. I wouldn't want to replace a $3500 laptop. :)
:(
Mozilla didn't render the preview pane right.
-Jeff
Actually, the Mac OS supports up to 8 buttons, via the Cursor Device Manager. However, as far as I am aware the extra buttons are only directly supported by games, via InputSprocket.
Sorry, I did over-react. I thought you were one of them. I just bought a Pismo in March so I am a little ticked that I missed the G4 train, but I think that this is a little sexier anyway. By supporting ram I meant that the pismo supports 512 but in reality can run a gig. But if you have a problem, apple will hear none of it. Now you can have your gig, and eat it too.
I do look forward to the UMA-2 in laptops, but my next purchase will probably be their 2nd rev of a G5 desktop; godwilling. (Perhaps I will get a UMA-3 laptop of one ever exists) The Ti is nice, and if I wasn't a student I would buy one and give my powerbook to a windows user. I need the G4, for I do some sick stuff with math that you'd slap me for. In the meantime, I will wear my apple proudly. Godspeed.
"Computer Science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes."
-E. W. Dijkstra
2???
Yes, two. The mac comes with one. X uses three. That leaves two to be emulated.
And FWIW, LinuxPPC did that out of the box for me. Now I have a four-button trackball, but I could still use emulation if I wanted to.
I was going to mod this up as "Insightful" or "Interesting" but I really wanted to post on this topic. So I will have to leave the modding to someone else.
You have many valid points and bitches. All of them infact, but some of them are a bit colored. I am a Mac user, but I'm not one of the blind Mac cultists who worship that ego monster Jobs.
I will admit that I was spellbound when Jobs came back as the leader of Apple while it was in its dying spasms, but that soon wore off when I saw that Jobs wasn't dragging Apple kicking and screaming past the cutting edge of technology. All he was doing was playing catch-up and putting it in a nice candy coating for all the candy ravers and people who wanted a computer that went with their choice of carpet and chairs.
Part of Apple's problems are from who they get their CPU's from, Motorola. Motorola needs to get the damn dust out of their clean rooms and start beefing up the Mhz of their chips, the PPC is a great little chip. The only drawback is the problems they are having with making them, IBM has made them faster. What did Motorola do? Got all pissy that IBM wasn't doing the dance their way, and threatened to take away their rights to make the chips. What Motorola should have done was copy IBM's fab system and get on with it.
Another part of Apple's problem is that the OS is half software and half hardware. In the beginning this was great, they could put the whole GUI on a 400k floppy and still have space for a program or two on the same disk. The programers knew it was there, they knew it wasn't going to change over night. The major drawback was that the programmers and hardware makers had to use it, they couldn't just whip up a driver or program for it they had to tie into the ROMs to get stuff to work. Even Apple had to make clever hacks to get their stuff to work with all their machines. The Mac is a hacker's nightmare/dream.
This is where OS X is suposed to come in. OS X is suposed to be completely free of the ROMs, but untill Apple can get it working on the hardware without the need for the ROMs OS 9 will still be around. When they finally do it, the Mac that only runs OS X (XI, XII etc) will forever be unlike the Mac that we all grew to love/hate/ignore.
For all the complaints of how much of a closed system it is and how hard it is to make into what you want it to do, I have seen so many clever hacks from hardware makers and even garage hardware hackers. I've seen so many people who spend hours hacking the latest cuecat or firbie or [insert closed hacker proof product] and yet most bitch about the Mac being a closed system and don't do any hacking on it. Sure it's expencive to replace if you screw up, but that should just make you more carefull about what you are doing. Any hardware hacker worth his salt should have atleast one cobbled together Mac that's not running the Mac OS, be it BeOS, Linux, or something of their own creation.
The PC isn't a Ford, its a freeking GM! The Mac isn't a Bently or any other luxury car. The Mac is a deisel Subaru that has a big wad of black epoxy poured into the engine compartment so that you can't get to it easily.
I have woken up, I don't like candy. Jobs has woken up also, he's just dragging his feet about it. From what I can tell, he knows that OS X is the last chance for Apple. He just doesn't want to let go of the whole kindom just yet. And that is his ego roaring.
I'm not blind, but I do have my fingers crossed.
"If you're not confused by quantum mechanics, you really don't understand it." - Niels Bohr
this thread made my day. ;)
Picture this: You're on an airplane or jet or whatever your favorite reference is, and you're playing with your powerbook running linux...sure normally you'd just plug your nice Intellimouse Explorer (or facsimile thereof - and copy-cats very much exist...the nereby MicroCenter has some fo rlike uh $20, for all your people who wont even buy an MS labelled mouse!) into the USB port...but the guy next to you keeps telling you to get your damned mouse off his crotch...damn your company for not springing for first class! damn them! That's why Numero Uno won't work. Numero dos...well, why would you want to?????????? Remember, us PC folk would love to come to the apple side of things except in my own case atleast...those damned mice piss me off, and it's not like I can go to my local comptuer store and buy the parts to build my own and fix my own if I'd like. Which I would!
Derek Greene
and before anyone other than my friends comments about my misspelling "nearby", sorry..I'm tired ok???
Derek Greene
I don't have a problem holding down control, option, or command when clicking my mouse button to modify it. Why do people always bitch about the one mouse button. Seems a nonissue to me. The constant complaint against it is old. If you don't like it get another mouse. I prefer one mouse button. I even have the external pro mouse where the entire thing is a button. I like it :)
IRNI
SexCow Airlines
Supposedly the prototypes had 2 buttons.. which is what i'd have really liked to have seen! (Mebbe after OSX is released they'll give it an extra one)
Ok, this is probably seriously off-topic, but the fact is that a lot of research going on around this. The experiments involve a car that has a combined gas- and breakpedal. To accelerate, you tilt your foot forward, and to slow down you ease up on the tilt. To break, you simply put the pedal to the metal, so to speak. The results are pretty amazing. Most people get used to this in no-time, and the range from full speed to stop decreases with several meters. Combine this with a Tiptronic/Sensonic transmission (basically a combination of a normal transmission and an automatic, which means all your 4/5/6 gears but no pedal) and you're there.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I find pointing devices other than a mouse really awkward to use. As much as I'm drooling over the PB G4, the first accessory I'd get for it is a USB mouse.
:)
PS. www.goldenshower.gs
Pope
Freedom is Slavery! Ignorance is Strength! Monopolies offer Choice!
It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
holy cow, everytime the word apple is even breathed in passing someone (hundreds of someone's actually) bleat off about the mouse button count.
Because, we (I, at least) use two, sometimes 3 mouse buttons all the time.
Don't get me wrong, if I had the cash for a laptop, this would be the laptop of choice, and yes I'd get a USB mouse. This laptop would be my portable Music/Video studio (Propellerheads REASON + new G4 PB = Portable Music Studio!), but I find it disconcerning that after I pay $3K-$4K I have to spend another $50 to accomodate an engineering flaw.
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
Did you ever consider that two mouse buttons might not be what you term 'proper'? Not everyone requires the functionality of two or more mouse buttons, nor does everyone find it as easy to use. Some prefer the simplicity of one mouse button.
Bottom line is don't judge something improper just because it doesn't support your needs.
AFAIK WINE just makes programs think they're running on a windows-based machine. No actual translating of hardware calls involved, because WINE passes x86 code on to be executed by an x86 CPU. Macs today use PowerPC chips, and trying to execute x86 code on those doesn't work so well. PPC ports of Linux have Mac-On-Linux, which essentially boots a standard mac system folder (very similar to MacOS X's Classic environment) so you can use MacOS applications. The Mac applications are compiled into ppc binaries. Neither MOL nor WINE are emulators. They don't translate hardware calls. If Mac users want to run anything x86, Connectix VirtualPC is the solution. It's quite fast (the recent 4.0 release at least doubles speed, real world) for an emulator, and it's compatibility is simply astounding. It emulates hardware only, so your really free to install any OS you want in VirtualPC, from BeOS, to Linux, to any Windows, to any other *nix, regardless of what system software shipped with your copy of VirtualPC.
I would guess most of you haven't really used a trackpad, or a single button trackpad,
;))
:)
:)
the honest truth is the trackpad is the best portable pointing device.
Tracballs work... trackpads are better.
nipples, they suck. Its the equivalent of using a finger joystick to steer your mouse.
I don't use a joystick to control my mouse on my desktop, why the hell would I do it on my laptop!
When I want to click some widget, I just think widget and before I know its clicked (mousing is autonomous to me
but with a nipple its like a mini racing game to steer the cursor, slow down, adjust and swirl around a few times...
Its just stupid.
Now.. about mousebuttons...
on a desktop, you just get a usb mouse you like... I actually had a triple button wonder until recently... I traded it in for the gelcap mouse
Love it... just apply pressure you click.... my left hand never leaves the keyboard, where it hovers on the left side... where all the modifier keys are
so we can choord a huge amoount of mouse clicks with the shift-ctrl-opt-cmd keys
but on a laptop its even better... the trackpad is between your right and left hands...
so your left hand is always on the keyboard in the touch type position, right moves between the trackpad and the keyboard... left can always pushing the cntrl key or cmd key or whatever to get how ever many keyclicks you want
So sure, you might not like it... but the single mousebutton is the right choice for the APPLE PowerBook G4 Titanium... and I'm sure you'll get use to cmd and cntrl clicking in linux very soon if you got one... but thats only when you're on the road...
when your on a desk... pull out your USB mouse of choice and plug it in... them MS optical mice work too
---
Live Long & Prosper \\//_
CYA STUX =`B^) 'da Captain,
---
Live Long & Prosper \\//_
CYA STUX =`B^) 'da Captain,
Jedi & Last *-fytr
I happen to love my Logitech Trackman Marble+. It's mostly a personal preference thing. I have a few friends who use this trackball too. Once we got used to thumb-controlled trackballs, there was no turning back. It allows for the non-thumb fingers to have minimal movement. This mouse improved my FPS (frags per second) by about 50-75.
It just takes some getting used to; the entire palm stays on the mouse when you use it. When using any other trackball, this is not the case. Unlike mice, your arm doesn't move either; just your thumb.
I only wish it came with 3to4+wheel buttons instead of 2+wheel.
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Use my userscript to add story images to Slashdot. There's no going back.
He's complaining about unneeded complexity, not needed complexity.
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Am I the only one who thinks Microsoft is a misnomer? Perhaps Macrosoft would be a better fit?
The others just happen to be on the keyboard... where your other hand just happens to be resting, near the shift, control, option, and command keys, just waiting to be used in tandem with the the click of the other button, under your index finger. On the other hand, if you want, third party mice are plentiful, and with the modifiers mapped to the physical buttons, go nuts. The OS is designed to take advantage of the "extra" buttons (that have been there all along). I've a logitech three button scrollwheel on my G4. Heck, I've got a kensington trackball that has four buttons. The mouse button issue is dead arguement. Leave the fossil lay, and lets move on to more important issues.
If it takes you seconds to switch between mouse and keyboard, you're sufficiently handicapped to be well outside of the core market.
MKLinux was a port of the Linux kernel to the Mach microkernel. Basically the linux kernel ran as a single server on the Mach microkernel. Which would really suck as you lose all the advantages of a microkernel and a monolithic kernel by doing that.
Of course Mklinux is pretty much dead with PPC Linux around now...
Just a quick comment: MS did in fact copy the right mouse button context menus. OS/2 2.0 (actually the WPS) had them in 1992 and I am sure others had them too. Credit goes to MS for bringing context menus to the masses, though.
I am German but my email isn't...
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
What they did was sneak someone over to the Apple booth with a CD. He popped the CD into the machine and rebooted with the C key held down. It didn't work, so he ran away. He got balls and came back later. He stuck around a bit longer this time, setting it to boot from the CD. It booted up with the Linux screen.
At that point, he bent down and his friend took a picture. Then, the PowerBook manager from Apple saw what was happening and came racing over. Just as the manager was getting ready to reboot it or pull the plug, they popped out the LinuxPPC CD and took off running.
The fact that it booted means that all of those things will probably work without a problem, since it's basically the same logic board design as the cube. If they don't work at the moment, I'm sure they will soon, so I woudln't worry about it.
This post has so many factual errors that it's comical. Ironically, he bashes "Classic" Mac OS when the story itself is about LinuxPPC. I'd love to hear the rationale from the people that marked it up as "Insightful" and "Interesting."
- Scott
--
Scott Stevenson
WildTofu
Scott Stevenson
Tree House Ideas
I don't get it.
Nice rant! I would say that "true reflection" is pushing it a bit though.
What is the robbing of a bank, compared to the founding of a bank? -- Bertolt Brecht
If somebody is running Linux, they don't give a damn about Apple's "Human Computer Interaction" guidelines or the need for app writers to rewrite their Mac apps.
More importantly, lots of Mac apps are currently dependent on option-click combos -- setting such a combo to a RMB actually makes the computer easier to use. So perhaps it's HCI that's broken?
There's no "we" in team, only "me"
Three shall be the number of buttons thou shalt have, and the number of the buttons shall be three.
Four shalt thou not have, neither have thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three.
Five is right out.
Bugrit! Millenium hand and shrimp!
Also, for a laptop, what difference does it make whether you have multiple mouse buttons next to the trackpad. Your hands are right next to the keyboard anyway, so you can easily press one of the keys (cntrl) to simulate another mouse button.
Spyky
here's the deal: the mouse is a pointing device, not a mini-keyboard...
It's all about adding needless complexity and calling it innovation.
Not really. If some people use mice as mini-keyboards, then that's what those mice are. Meaning is determined by usage, as it is for words.
Anyway, here's the thing. Keyboards by themselves are a pretty amazing and versatile input device, all things considered. And mice can also be very effective and even efficient input devices: after all, a picture can say a thousand words. What's NOT efficient is having to switch back and forth between the two. Think about it - the largest movement you ever have to make while controling the cursor is to move your right index finger from the J key to the mouse button. Not to mention the orientation period in which you determine and re-centre the location of the pointer. This is why ergonomics is best served by granting keyboards as much of the functionality of the mouse as is possible (via hotkeys), and by imparting as many functions as possible to the mouse. This minimizes the occasions on which you have to make that big movement away from J, but once you do, lets you accomplish as much as possible while you're over there.
Microsoft itself has found that only 10% of users even use a right click AT ALL, EVER.
Can you please specify a reference for this information? I am genuinely interested. I seemed sort of shocked by that number at first, but then again I can almost believe it true.
Cheers,
--MD
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Normally, I would've emailed you, but you didn't provide an address.
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Every time I copy text in one app, paste in another, and see nothing
I've been cutting and pasting in X for 2 years now. And I can't recall a time when an app didn't let me. I suggest you read more documentation.
But Linux geeks complaining about anything GUI-related from Apple have no leg to stand on, and doing so sounds just plain silly.
Save your time and ignore these people. Despite all it faults, X is one of the most impressive systems I've ever used. I remember just recently running applications from other hosts that were running different operating systems on different hardware and in some cases, different campuses.
Maybe if the Linux world only had one mouse button to worry about, it could get it right.
I really wish CmdrTaco hadn't said this. You can use the keyboard and a one button mouse to do just about anything you can with a mult-buttoned mouse, in X and in MacOS.
Maybe OSX is scaring the shit out of Linux partisans because it's going to put the world's most advanced GUI on top of a rock-solid kernel, which the Linux world has never managed to even come close to?
It comments that this that keep flames alive. I dont think any diehard users of Linux are worried about Mac OS X.
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No, what's really sad is to see a sweet machine crippled by a crappy OS.
I agree. Mac OS X ships on March 24. Some people may prefer LinuxPPC, which is what this article is, oddly enough, about.
- Scott
--
Scott Stevenson
WildTofu
Scott Stevenson
Tree House Ideas
This is where OS X is suposed to come in. OS X is suposed to be completely free of the ROMs, but untill Apple can get it working on the hardware without the need for the ROMs OS 9 will still be around. When they finally do it, the Mac that only runs OS X (XI, XII etc) will forever be unlike the Mac that we all grew to love/hate/ignore.
Incorrect. OS versions 8.1 and onward no longer require the ROM. 8.1 booted on an IBM CHRP machine (though there were reportedly problems with the floppy drive). One of the factors contributing to the current bloat of the OS is that a copy of the entire thing (older Mac ROMs contained the Toolbox which included basic drivers and graphics code) is stored on disk. OSX will move away from all dependencies on the ROM code in any form, and I do agree that this is a good thing.
z
Right, but you can't replace the PowerBook mouse.
You can connect the external mouse, but that's not the same.
OSX is a fragged beta.
blessings,
"Only in their dreams can men truly be free 'twas always thus, and always thus will be."
--Tom Schulman
What the hell are you smoking beavis.
:)
:)
4:3 is the CURRENT standard as used in NTSC.
macs have 1:1 pixels, so its really easy to work out the aspect ration...
anyway, you will find the aspect ratio is closer to that of whats generally called WideScreen 16:9
Which works out to be fantastic for watching most DVDs
no black bars, or very little one when you watch a 2.35:1 title
---
Live Long & Prosper \\//_
CYA STUX =`B^) 'da Captain,
---
Live Long & Prosper \\//_
CYA STUX =`B^) 'da Captain,
Jedi & Last *-fytr
I believe he meant 2 in addition to the existing 1 mouse button, not in place of.
Free Hans!
And what about when you want to brake and use the throttle at the same time? This technique is used under a variety of cicumstances. On motorbikes honda recently decided to install a system which tied the front and rear brakes together. No longer could you touch the rear brake lightly to stabilize the bike in a high speed corner.
My point - if it's not already obvious - is that by limiting the users options of control you are making decisions that limit the absolute level of control that any user can demonstrate. Just because you can make it simpler doesn't mean you should.
.sig
Spend $20 bucks, get a decent Kensington USB mouse (2 button, scroll wheel), and everything's just ducky. The Mac0S supports the second button, with great contextual menus. My recent experiment with Yellow Dog Linux on a Blue & White G3 had no problems recognizing and using said 2 button mouse.
For Joe Sixpack out there, yeah, a 1-button mouse is probably a bit easier to use. But for the "power user", that individual is going to be making modifications anyway--hard drive space, extra cards, extra memory, maybe even an alternate OS. Getting a decent mouse is the easiest thing in the world.
Do I wish that Apple shipped 2-button mice? Sure. Frankly, I'd just like a decent ergonomic mouse from Apple (haven't tried the new optical mouse) since their previous models have been hell on the hands and wrists. But for God's sake, don't trash an otherwise decent machine for not shipping with a 2-button mouse.
Random Musings at Rum Smuggler
A) I might as well abuse my +1 bonus. My original account had 98 karma as of the freeze, and this one has almost reached the cap of 50.
B) The U.S. Customary (which is not the same as British Imperial) is based on "multiples" just as much as metric. It is merely not based on a single consistent exponent base.
For example, liquid measurement in the U.S. Customary system is based on power of two. 1024 drams = 256 tablespoons = 128 fluid ounces = 32 gills = 16 cups = 8 pints = 4 quarts = 1 gallon, making conversion a matter of bit shifts on a computer.
C) I didn't claim it was as bad as the British Imperial or U.S. Customary system for daily use, merely that the theoretical underpinnings of the metric system were no more logical. Kinda like saying MacOS 9 and Windows Me are both structurally lousy operating systems, even though MacOS 9 is easier to use.
D) Er, how do you know who my countrymen are? That I've used the U.S. Customary system in this post is better evidence than my language, but it mostly makes it likely I've lived in the U.S. for a period of time (whether recently or in the past), and unlikely that I come from a country that used the British Imperial system (otherwise my examples would have drawn on that tradition). Perhaps I'm Filipino instead; the Phillipines did have fifty years of U.S. rule, with U.S. Customary as the measurement system of its rulers.
E) I didn't say it would be bad for the U.S. to change to the Metric system. I personally think it would be much nicer for daily use.
However, I also proposed in my post a new measurement system that, coupled with a new base-12 number system, would be superior to Metric in terms of both rationality and usability. It would even expand the possibilities of counting on your fingers -- each hand has 12 joints on its four fingers, and a thumb to track place value, allowing the pair to record numbers up to 144 (100 in dozenal/base 12 notation).
There's no "we" in team, only "me"
And I'm sure the button emulation for those extra two buttons is even clunkier than the "Emulate3Buttons" directive of the XF86Config for two button mouse users. Then again, as was said, it doesn't matter, with USB support you can easily buy a 'proper' X-capable mouse with anywhere from 3 to 6 buttons. The USB HID support is a wonderful thing.
I used up all my sick days, so I'm calling in dead.
yeah yeah yeah, Macs only have one mouse button: big deal. sure it's a pain in the ass if you're using Linux, but the MacOS (including MacOS X) is designed to operate effectively with only one mouse button.
i hated it at first too, so when i bought my first Mac a few years ago (after using Linux and Windows exclusively) i ran out and bought a 3-button mouse. i found however, that after using the MacOS for a while you start to realize that if things are designed with a 1-button mouse in mind, using the standard apple mouse actually made things more convenient. to this day i have two mice plugged into my computer: the standard Apple mouse and a 4-button scroll mouse. i use the 1-button mouse the most, as it's just so much more convenient (and easier on the carpal tunnel) to just click one mouse button, esecially when i'm using photoshop or illustrator. in fact, the only time i use the 4-button mouse is when i'm web browsing as it's got the scroll wheel and the metakey-click combinations map to convenient functions in IE 5.0.
so in closing quit your bitching. it's been discussed here before that if you want to run Linux, you should be using an x86 anyhow. if you're buying a Mac, you'll probably want to (eventually) run OS X, and it works perfectly well with only one button. you can still of course attach an external x-button USB mouse, but again, i find that using the one button is pefectly convient the majority of the time. it's certainly no reason dismiss the Titanium Powerbook G4.
- j
Not to mention that while you can tell which button you're clicking on a mouse because you're using a different finger for each, you're only using the side of one thumb for all your laptop-trackpad clicking needs. Even varying the texture of the additional buttons would only help a little, since the side of the thumb isn't all that sensitive.
Anyway, any GUI that requires multiple buttons and doesn't give you alternate means of accessing their functionality is a poorly-designed one indeed.
Big deal. Some people can't take a joke.
If you don't like that last line, ignore it. Move on. Get a life. Go click on another story with your one-buttoned mouses. He has the right to feel that it's crippled by lack of proper mouse buttons. And he has the right to say so.
And please don't moderate this up, there's enough mouse button posts already.
The mouse buttons can be VERY easily emulated via the yaboot boot manager. Just pass it the boot varible for the adb mouse button keys, and wa-la, you're there. Besides, you've got your hands on the keyboard, so emulating the 2 mouse buttons is NOT a problem. LinuxPPC/Yellowdog/DebianPPC _all_ have support for USB mouses and keyboards, so just plug in a friggin' mouse.
It would be REALLY nice to be able to take advantage of the Apple hardware without feeling like a second hand mouse user. Some people use their mice a lot. Some people use their keyboard a lot. You, apparently, are one of the latter. Good for you.
But the ergonomic benefits of actually having an intrinsic 3 button mouse should not be lost. I have two buttons on my HP Omnibook, and I REALLY REALLY wish it had three. In fact, so much so that I was willing to pay a little more for three buttons. Unfortunately, I wasn't willing to pony up for a Thinkpad, which is the only real option given my other constraints.
So take it easy on someone who actually appreciates having three buttons on the dern laptop. It could be a benefit, despite the fact that you live happily without it.
It's really sad to see the poster of an article so poorly informed, and such is often the case with Mr.Taco's posts.
An ad hominem attack is poor taste. Say something meaningful. Don't troll.
I cut and pasted this from netslaves.
I don't live in New York, I'm certainly not old enough to have been a frat-boy in 1984 and my IQ is in the low 150's rather than the high 130's.
I'd like to thank everyone who responded and/or moderated it up though - you made my day!
--Shoeboy
I used up all my sick days, so I'm calling in dead.
or $500 you can put together a really nice system. High quality Abit motherboard, AMD Thunderbird, Micron memory, IBM ATA hard drives, etc.
Like I said, if all you care about is price...
Most people don't want to build a PC from scatch. I did that for years, and just got sick of dealing with all the problems.
If Apple had had any brains they would've made a sub $1000 "iMac" without the space-wasting monitor built into it.
Sounds good to me.
- Scott
--
Scott Stevenson
WildTofu
Scott Stevenson
Tree House Ideas
The last few generations of Macs and PBs have all had built in ethernet so there is no need for a PCMCIA ethernet card. Your point is quite valid though...there's only one kind of ethernet for them to test since it is the same one that comes with ALL TiBooks...so why didn't they test it?
And the Metric system is equally archaic, since it is based on a set of arbitrary units scaled on a number base designed to conform to human body measurements at the expense of usability.
A logical measurement system would use universal fundamental physical constants to define units, like the Planck distance (length) and Planck interval (time), the electron volt (charge), etc. And base 12 would be a superior choice for the base, since it is evenly divisible by 2, 3, 4, and 6, instead of just 2 and 5.
There's no "we" in team, only "me"
Does LinuxPPC run faster? Using similar software, which system runs the app faster? Which OS eats up more memory? etc.
It's hard to say until OSX goes GM, but in the end, the raw speed difference will probably be somewhat insignifcant compared to the functionality comparison.
- Scott
--
Scott Stevenson
WildTofu
Scott Stevenson
Tree House Ideas
There are certain parts of X that are just plain traditional. Left click to select and copy, and middle click to paste, for instance. In some older apps, not based on either GTK or QT, such functionality was often not otherwise available. Bad UI design used to be the norm for X apps. Things have improved and still are, but you can't always escape bad designs -- even many Windows and MacOS have poorly designed interfaces. I personally believe that an GUI should be completely functional via a keyboard interface. X certainly does not meet this requirement, nor does MacOS or Windows.
I used up all my sick days, so I'm calling in dead.
Even my untrained troll detectors see through this one. You make it way too obvious with the 500MHz limit bit (which is false).
- Scott
--
Scott Stevenson
WildTofu
Scott Stevenson
Tree House Ideas
Try this experiment--go to Pricewatch and see what 500 dollars will buy you in Intel architecture hardware. Do your best shopping. Now see what 500 dollars will buy you in Apple hardware.
If all you care about is price, then yes. Go buy a eMachines or Dell. Though, if you can get past your preconceptions and actually figure out that there are advantages to Apple's approach to product development, then you may find yourself on the other side of the argument.
G4 performance is, at worst, reasonably competitive with x86; and at best, actually quite a bit faster in some situations. Though, I know a lot of people just refuse to believe that clock speed could actually be an inaccurate measurement of overall system performance this day and age.
At some point the Apple PR machine will run out of shit and the lie will be exposed for all to see.
Have you actually used OSX yet?
- Scott
--
Scott Stevenson
WildTofu
Scott Stevenson
Tree House Ideas
X wouldn't have any problems, AFAIK, it would just run in a slightly strange resolution (like 768x1124 or something). XFree86 doesn't have any problems with this, as I've seen it run fine in other strange Mac-only resolutions, such as 832x648 or whatever that is. ;)
Anyway, that said, just because a new material makes a good golf club doesn't make it a good choice for a laptop enclosure. The primary advantage of the amorphous metals (LiquidMetal is a trade name) in golf clubs is their ability to store elastic energy. The alloys themselves are denser than titanium (translation => heavier laptop), these alloys are more expensive than titanium, and there is the problem of beryllium being toxic. Plus, titanium forms a protective oxide that makes it corrosion resistant, whereas beryllium oxide is even more toxic than beryllium metal. The fact that beryllium is toxic is really the killer. Even though you would have to grind the case up and inhale it for it to kill you (eventually, mabye 10-20 years down the road), the public perception that it is toxic would cause serious problems for Apple.
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The internet is the greatest source of biased information in the history of mankind.
From what I can tell, he knows that OS X is the last chance for Apple.
I suppose... but only in the way that Earth is the last chance for humanity.
- Scott
--
Scott Stevenson
WildTofu
Scott Stevenson
Tree House Ideas
Your last sentence was the best troll I've seen ever, so good for you.
but if you don't know how to plug in a new mouse or use keyboard shortcuts (99% of laptop users do one or the other anyway) then you are too fucking stupid to own a computer in the first place
u mean it doesn't make a click noise when you press it and something happens on the screen?
Seriously, just what kind of an ass-hole are you? You've got the processor wrong. Its a G4 not a G3.
I'm pretty sure that post was a joke.
- Scott
--
Scott Stevenson
WildTofu
Scott Stevenson
Tree House Ideas
Don't blame "Linux" for the brokenness of a particular program (Netscape).
It's not just Netscape, it's a whole bevvy of commonly-used apps that behave inconsistently. My Big Three - Xemacs, NS and xterm - all have different copy and paste methods that are barely interoperable unless you know the secret middle-click tricks (and ignore the "copy" and "paste" commands in the menus).
I know the origin of the problem, of course, but Joe User won't. Joe User uses Linux and copy and paste don't work, it's Linux that gets the blame, not the particular app. And it IS Linux's shortcoming for not providing a standard method for coders, but it's an impossible task to anticipate all of the different wierd ways coders rolled their own copy and paste algorithms since there was no standard method. I'm not saying this is a reasonable thing to ask for given Linux's roots - the whole point is that I get tired of Linux geeks complaining about Apple's UI very, very quickly these days.
I'm sure it would be possible to write such a broken app for MacOS as well. Would you then blame MacOS for the failure to copy/paste?
Actually it would be quite difficult, because copy and paste are integrated into the Text Services part of the MacOS Toolbox. They work everywhere. If you have text editing capacity in your app, you have copy and paste unless you go out of your way to avoid supporting it.
TomatoMan
-- http://frobnosticate.com
According to Moores lesser known second law, the number of mouse buttons will double regularly.
MKLinux runs around 10-15% slower than normal Linux on the same hardware. Citing it as a counterexample to a claim that basing MacOSX on top of Mach isn't going to be a performance issue is probably not a great move.
Go to terminal window. Type in a URL.
Highlight URL with by dragging across it with left mouse button.
Switch to Netscape. Middle-click in URL field to paste.
Go to a different site in Netscape. Highlight new URL with left button drag.
Switch back to terminal window. Paste with middle button.
Right - the key to copy and paste is implied copying upon selection and middle-click to paste. Hardly intuitive, particularly among apps like Xemacs, Netscape and xTerm that have "copy" and "paste" menus items that rarely work between each other. When they do, it's a combination of luck and the implied copy when a selection is made.
Copy has always been an explicit action in the Xerox-derived UIs of Mac and Windows, and it's a concept I agree with - just because I've selected something doesn't mean I want you to copy it. You're destroying my previous selection that I DID want to keep in the copy buffer - maybe I selected this text because I wanted to delete it, or change something about it.
In any event, the arcane process described above, although more reliable once you know it (and I used Linux as a programmer and administrator for years before discovering it - it was hardly put out in front anywhere as a warning), can hardly be called a copy and paste replacement for the masses.
I still don't want to hear Linux geeks griping about the Apple UI (not enough mouse buttons/wheels/levers/whatever) when basic things like copy and paste don't work reliably. Gripe about the fact that OS < 10 crashes once a day, at least, and I'm right there with you. Gripe about the cost of Mac hardware and I'll cry with you. But give the UI stuff a rest, Linux World, until you sort out your own house.
TomatoMan
-- http://frobnosticate.com
Well, things are a little different on a laptop computer. Almost all of the mouse pointer devices on laptops are built-in, so if you add a mouse, you do just that -- add ANOTHER mouse. If you were dealing with a desktop system, it's very different.
I used up all my sick days, so I'm calling in dead.
Anyone know how to accelerate a G4? My brand-new G4 cube seems awful slow, especially when running OS 9.
I've searched a few Internet web sites, and they all have this cryptic comment:
The best way to accelerate a Macintosh is 32 ft/sec/sec down.
Anyone know if this is some software I can download and install? Or is it the name of a hardware addon? I keep looking around but am not finding on the issue...
Thanks for any help.
Actually, I use Linux on my powerbook and the modifier keys work perfectly well. In fact, it's easier to manipulate modifier keys with your index fingers on a laptop than to find the correct button of the three on PC laptops using your thumb.
I use the mouse quite a bit. I'm always pasting subnets or hostnames or usernames between netscape, shell and mutt. I had a two-button mouse for a while with Emulate3Buttons and I nearly threw my computer out the window before I got a three-button.
Its doubtful that the first iteration of the GeForce 2 go will make it into a power book for the simple reason that apple isnt willing to sacrifice battery life in exchange for alot more 3d power, as much as I would love to play quake on that 15.1 wide screen display it just wouldnt make sense for the market theyre in. in laptops Transmeta (and apple for that matter) has it right battery life is king.
--aiee
Hey do you know how to use color coding in emacs in a text console? If so please e-mail rich@argohaus.com with a link or instructions or anything. I would be much obliged.
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Doesn't Mac support the second button on a USB mouse? Then you can even get an Intellimouse, and have 4 buttons and a scroll wheel. Okay, yes, I use Win... I don't have to like it to I?!
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I know that 1 button mice suck ass, and everytime I've ever had to use a mac I replace the shitty one button poor excuse for a mouse with a real 3 button mouse or trackball.
The only reason the mice have one button is so idiots don't get confused. It's pathetic. MacOS is set up to work with one button, but other OS's are not and take advantage of the better multiple button setup. Holding down an option key while clicking is a poor workaround for a problem that could easily be solved by rewriting their stupid HCI guideline BS.
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Browsing at a threshold of 3, there are currently 14 posts displayed. More than half of them are responses to CmdrTaco's jibe about mouse buttons. Moderation gone awry!
:)
Please go look at this article, posted on Slashdot a few days ago. Read Taco's off-the-cuff jibe about mouse buttons. Read the responses. Ponder Taco's thought process, as he posts today's story with those responses in mind. Wouldn't it be funny if he made a crack about mouse buttons again?
His tongue was in his cheek. He was being a smartass. As a Mac user, I'd like to read about LinuxPPC booting on new PowerBooks now. Look up; see the joke; discuss the issue at hand. Thank you.
When I click once on a file, I select it. A second time, I can rename it. Do it fast and I will run it.
Yes, but what does that have to do with having a right button available?
Look, on a modern automatic-transmission car, only park, reverse, and (over)drive are used by 90% of the people. The other options are still there, and we don't hear people whining about them. There are a dozen buttons on my blender, and I don't understand what eight of them do, but I don't hear anybody claiming that blenders are overly complicated devices. Only a tiny subsset of the vocabulary of most languages is used by the vast majority of the people, but nobody's calling on the Academie Francaise to eliminate 90% of the French vocabulary.
The problem of HCI is that people expect to use electronic devices without spending time learning to operate it, when they wouldn't dream of making such demands of mechanical devices. It's ludicrous, and should be viewed as such.
Now, yes, my various blender buttons are consistent in how they act, and that's an appropriate goal of HCI -- to provide consistency. But consistency is not an antonym of complexity, and HCI that operates on that assumption is inherently flawed.
There's no "we" in team, only "me"
I agree. Apple has may flaws aside from mouse buttons, yet this is the point that is mainly attacked.
I don't care if a mouse has 1 button or 45 buttons. What I care about is how well I can get the job done. Hell, if I am just using CLI I don't even need a fucking mouse. I don't want to hear anymore griping from biased morons who probably haven't used an old mac for more than checking their e-mail. I was able to get what I needed done quickly, with one mouse button, no problem.
If you can't function without multiple mouse buttons maybe it is time to re-evaluate computer interfaces.
Everytime you look at porn a devil gets their horns.
Great, you use all 5, so everyone else must as well. Not true. I've moved into administration recently, from a background of tech support, corporate training, and being a college student.
In my experience, with the few thousand people I've helped use computers, VERY few of them use the other mouse button. The only things they have ever had to do is use programs, open files, and rename files. This applies to experienced business users, college students and your average web surfer alike.
Most(all?) consumer (mac and windows) programs are designed in such a way that you never have to use the right mouse button to do anything. For most people the menus on top of the windows provide a more standard interface than a mouse button ever could.
People don't want to have to try to figure out what is coming up next by clicking a right mouse button. In most applications, the right mouse button loses all context, in Word it allows you to format paragraphs, etc. in IE it allows you to navigate. These functions do not cross applications as well as the menu on top of the windows do.
It comes down to the fact that once you get outside of the standard functions of the left button, which everyone knows and loves, the middle and right buttons essentially hide the interface from the user. One can be reasonably certain that the file menu on a document allows you to save it, save it as something else, or quit the program. The same kind of assumptions cant be made about mouse buttons, hence people tend not to use them, because it is just inconvenient.
These aren't stupid users, they are just the common ones. Common users have no need for more than one mouse button, since all functions are accessible elsewhere more visibly.
Dude... A viola is bigger than a violin & smaller than a cello (violincello if you're picky).
oops the weed must be taking effect because I forgot to mention that the GeForce uses about 2x the power that the rage mobility does.
--aiee
I never thought I'd see the day that a machine outclassed the Sony Vaio .. this thing blows it away. I want one, bad.. this machine kicks some serious ass. 1GB of ram? eeek!
All we need is for some big Linux sugardaddy *cough* RedHat *cough* *cough* to pick up LinuxPPC and make this line of notebooks fully supported under Linux.. That would be sweet. It'd be nice if they did the same for something like the Apple G4 also, and then brokered getting hardware drivers set up and whatnot - that'd give Linux a "home" architecture to work from, and allow you to fully exploit the capabilities of the hardware.
Oh well, I can dream.. damn, I want one of those though :). Match a titanium PDA case from Rhinoskin really nice, too.
..don't panic
Well... after getting a Logitech cordless mouse with 3 buttons and a wheel, I find myself asking why I'm using that extra button when there's a faster keyboard shortcut. For certain functions such as copying and pasting it's quicker to hit two keys command-c with the hand that never leaves the keyboard than right-click-pull-down-select-copy-release. You can even do it stone drunk with your eyes closed.
In short, more mouse buttons do not always make a better or easier user experience. IMHO they are more of a crutch for those incapable of elegant design.
Seriously, just what kind of an ass-hole are you? You've got the processor wrong. Its a G4 not a G3.
It smokes the Pentium IV by about 33% for processor intensive tasks.
You just don't want to admit that I'm gonna look SO-O COOOL whipping one out and watching a DVD with your girl at a Linux Expo while you lug around a lame-ass Vaio and a well thumber copy of Hustler...
From what I remember of the Sun 'luggable' some salesman hauled to my office, it had longer battery life because it was only used to run the clock. The guy had power adaptors for every friggin' continent 'cause the second thing he asked for was the nearest power plug.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
It can't be as cool as the Firewire powerbook, then. That thing took months to boot.
Wow, nice quick kneejerk reaction there. I guess it got you the +5 so it's all good. In the end your rant changes nothing though.
1 mouse button == dumb.
Sigs are awesome huh?
A wheel button is hardly needless, I find it way more better than using scroll bars, or using page down.
Windows can be used with one mouse button. I'm not sure what the key is, but it's there, and if it isn't, it could easly be added. There is no difference beween the functionality of MacOS and WinXX when it come to the pointing device. How many time am I going to have to say this?
Chorded mouse commands are exactly the same as chorded keyboard commands. It's just that the buttons are in a differnt place.
Also, more to the point. You can't attach a mouse to the laptop all the time. At least a scroll wheel would have been nice. Apple could have been the 1st ppl to put a scroll wheel on a laptop. And also adding one of those pointing stick type mice to the keyboard, would have been good aswell. That way, you can have the best of both worlds.
... scrolling through all the posts by brushing my mousewheel lightly, one hand on my mouse on my leg (MS optical mouse, works best there), a beer in my other hand. Didn't have to drag a little thumb around or aim at little bitty arrows, just had to have the mouse button anywhere in the window. Didn't even have to have the mouse flat.
Try and tell me that ain't ergonomic, all ya HCI eggheads.
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I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
Well, we all know what most win users are like anyway. I also be alot of Mac users don't know about the other modifier keys aswell.
I guess you don't know how to use a modifier key? Ctl-click for contextual menus too complex a sequence for you to remember?
But the right mouse button IS a modifier key. It's just been put on the mouse to make it easier CAN"T ANYONE UNDERSTAND THIS SIMPLE CONCEPT?
And don't tell me for one second that clicking one button, isn't easier than holding down a key and clicking.
I'm not supporting either side here. I'm just tring to say that adding a another button isn't that bigger deal. Once again, all this 2 mouse buttons make things more complexe argument is just BS.
Why would anyone want to boot linux when you can boot OSX and run a wide variety of unix tools on that? I know i'd rather use that than gnome.
_____
|D D| <-- this is a dual processor g4.
|___|
_____
|D X| <-- this is a g4 running macos 9.
|___|
is that more condusive to your method of digesting information?
All generalizations are false.
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I like to watch.
The new powerbook's display ratio is 4:3. most HDTV sets are 16:9 (just like the Apple Cinema Display) as for using the HDTV standard im not sure what you mean by this but unless apple pulled some amazing magic trick of some sort theres no HDTV decoding going on inside that little box, as much as i wish.
--aiee
well, the mice that ship with macs are now are nice, oval-shaped, "no button" laser mice.... the only reason i upgraded to 2.4.0 on my laptop was to use the damn thing.... of course gnome heartily subscribes to the "keyboard on wheels" theory of mice, so it's useless... oh well...
here's the deal: the mouse is a pointing device, not a mini-keyboard. If people want "added functionality" with extra buttons and levers and foot-pedals etc that's fine, but we should remember that that's supposed to be added functionality... as in "extra." The fact that most operating systems now can't be operated unless you have a 3-button frankenmouse shows a screwed up sense of design. Take windows up until fairly recently: files would get their names truncated at 8 characters all the time, but the os could support a mouse with 9 buttons, 3 wheels a lever and a trigger. It's all about adding needless complexity and calling it innovation.
2 1337 4 u!
When you can do it with only one?
Also, that was a vicious and uncalled for comment. If you wish a site where the editors don't give out their personal opinions on reported news, go somewhere else, zdnet for instance.
Remember: it's his own bloody site, If you disagree with how it's run, go somewhere else.
Or better still: make your own where *you* get to control the news....
...
Yes, I know I ramble and my spelling isn't quite up to scratch. If you wish to complain,
Hey, I'm sick of hearing everybody complain about the mouse buttons. Go out and buy yourself an n-button mouse, they make them for the Mac!!!! Install the drivers and tell the control panel what you want the bloody buttons to do. This works great on Mac-OS, I haven't tried it yet under PPCLinxux, maybe it's mouse drivers are cripppled?
Except that the final version won't include the Terminal in a default install... it will indeed be available to anyone who wants it, but you will have to install it manually yourself. In that way, though we can get at it with no problem, the average mortal will never see it.
Porting WINE to OS X, are you high? What good is that going to do when all of the binaries are built for x86?
Don't you think someone could hack a usb mouse as a kernel mod? A lot of people comment on how the linux community usually mimics other OSs, and how we lack true ingenuity (not me, I'm not that ignorant; but I've heard it numorous times). Why has noone hacked a 3-button mouse for Apple(tm) hardware? It would certainly get a "k3w1-H4ck" story on /.
Just a troll thinking out-loud...
"I've seen plays that were more exciting than this.
Honest to god... Plays!" Homer Simpson
A lot of people would like to see two button mice on Macs
I agree. The functionality is there in the OS to accomodate at least two buttons. I am not that bothered though as I already use a three buttoned mouse on my Macs. It would, however, be nice if Apple took the plunge and made their own multi-buttoned mouse, if only to stop this tired old argument.
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Moderator's essentials
For God's sake. I love Linux. I do. But Linux geeks complaining about anything GUI-related from Apple have no leg to stand on, and doing so sounds just plain silly.
Be sure and let me know when Linux has a simple GUI where every app can do the simple task of copy and paste among them - twenty-year-old technology by most standards. Every time I copy text in one app, paste in another, and see nothing, I roll my eyes and shake my head. And this with the very latest bleeding-edgest GNOME/Sawfish/Enlightenment/whatever.
Maybe if the Linux world only had one mouse button to worry about, it could get it right. Then add more buttons once the first one works.
Maybe OSX is scaring the shit out of Linux partisans because it's going to put the world's most advanced GUI on top of a rock-solid kernel, which the Linux world has never managed to even come close to?
Sheesh.
TomatoMan
-- http://frobnosticate.com
Please back up things you say with facts. While Mac people may not do this all the time, you cannot insult the Mac without some facts. P.S. If you can't fix a Mac, there's no way you can fix a PC (no fact to back this one up)
Arthropoid, the Right Clam for the Job
In their new powerbooks, I mean. Why'd Apple go with titanium when there are perfectly good alternatives like liquidmetal, an alloy of nickel, zirconium, titanium, copper, and beryllium, which has already been in golf clubs for three years and which is twice as strong as titanium. It can't be just for the sake of marketing, can it? If that were the case, then why would they be running linux?
Read the rest of this comment...
You can still do both. It is still possible to tilt your foot while pushing it forward, right?! (At least, I know *I* can do so.)
Oh, and as for your point, you can do a LOT with a racing-car that you can't do with an ordinary car. It's all a question about striking a proper balance between the level of complication and the level of maximum prestanda. In most cases the average user rather wants ease of use.
Aw, complain all you want about not having eighteen mouse buttons on the Titanium PowerBook. Apple obviously feels that a single button is a nicer interface, and I for one am not going to say they're wrong.
What I thought was interesting about Mac OS X Public Beta, on the other hand, is that it AUTOMATICALLY supported the top two buttons of my Kensington 4-button mouse, out of the box. The second button worked the contextual menus, as expected.
And this is an ADB mouse, mind you -- old technology from Apple (all the new mice are USB), and NOT code that was built in to OpenStep!
What this tells me is that Apple is going to lengths to preserve your possible preference, even though the preference of their hardware engineers is something else. As other people have pointed out, if you want more buttons, feel free to plug in a different mouse. I don't know what more you can really ask for.
Breakfast served all day!
The PBG4 has a USB port.
:)
Buy a USB three-button mouse.
Plug it in.
You may have to run mouseconfig or something like that to get it to see all three buttons.
And enjoy.
Haaz: Co-founder, LinuxPPC Inc., making Linux for PowerPC since 1996.
-- haaz.
The TiBook is essentially the most recent PowerBook (a.k.a. Pismo) with a G4 stuck in it. Same basic logic board design and such. What about running on the new 133MHz-bus Power Macs?
:-]
Now, what's more impressive is that it also boots on a non-upgraded Power Mac 7300, thanks to the instructions found at StepWise. Even runs pretty quick, too.
Besides, who needs more than one mouse button anyway?
--
I use Macs for work, Linux for education, and Windows for cardplaying.
(enormous rant skipped)
Amazingly, Apple has survived over 20 years of imminent demise. Maybe there's a new branch of physics to be discovered in looking closer at this.
The company won't crash and burn.
Oh. I thought you were saying "Apple will die." You might have mentioned this at the beginning and saved us all a lot of bandwidth.
TomatoMan
-- http://frobnosticate.com
It's a pointing device sure, but your keyboard on wheels comparison is hardly justified! i'm sorry but is 3 mouse buttons a difficult request??? I'd merely like to bring up the pop-up menus without moving my hand across the keyboard. As for that third button, hell, it can be mapped quite easily to something useful...now it makes alot of sense to put those 3 buttons on, so that the peopel who want em have and the people who dont, dont have to use them! That so hard to understand?
Derek Greene
Typical Apple Ego... too big to humbly admit that their one button "more efficient" concept was holyer than thou sinful multi-button concept.
:(
Crap, I replied to a troll
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
It seems there is a real `Redhat == Linux' like syndrome with PowerPC GNU/Linux except its `LinuxPPC 2000 == Linux on PowerPC'
All of the distributions that run on PowerPC use the same Linux kernel, thus all distributions which run on PowerPC will also run on this new machine.
Just a few other GNU/Linux distributions which run on PowerPC hardware including this PowerBook:
Debian
SuSE
YellowDog
--
Ethan
It requires two hands. And I have no more hands to hold my cup of coffee :-)
The mouse is fine, what I dont understand is why they are using the ATI Mobility and not a Geforce 2 Go. Here it shows the Mobilty consumes more power when in use than an ATI Mobility. And the Geforce2 chip leaves the Mobility in the dust when in comes to performance.
--
I just realized: If we hadn't given away 1,000 LPPC 2000 Q4 install CD-ROMs, we wouldn't have known the PBG4 to be compatible. Gotta like that. :)
Haaz: Co-founder, LinuxPPC Inc., making Linux for PowerPC since 1996.
-- haaz.
(Often programs adds a third: extend the current selection.) Many mouse software packages let you add additional actions, my favorite is: paste at the current location.
--
=S
MKLinux will not run on PCI powermacs.
MKLinux supports a large number of PCI powermacs, most of which also support LinuxPPC. In addition, there are now patches to let you run the standard kernel on nubus machines - see http://nubus-pmac.sourceforge.net/.
If a three button facia really matters to you, you could always start up your own company selling updates to Omnibook owners. Build your own version and flog it to the masses. Saying that laptop users should carry around a mouse is a little daft. Should they take a desk to use the mouse on as well? A laptop should be as self contained as possible.
MacOS is designed for one button
Windows is designed for two buttons
X is designed for three buttons
The point is that someone buying a Powerbook intending to run Linux and hence X on it would find it nicer to have 3 buttons; but since Apple expect people to be running MAcOS they only put one button on the thinkpad.
I'm not sure what is so extraordinary about this. I mean, my Dell Lattitude has the same problem; Dell expect me to be running Windows on it so the trackpad only has 2 buttons.
Look at the positive side - at least you have the possibility of changing Linux so it supports less buttons (as indeed Emulate3Buttons does on my Dell. Try running Windows on a single-button mouse and see how far you get.
~~~~~ BigLig2? You mean there's another one of me?
Theo is the lead developer for the OpenBSD project. He is also a self-proclaimed kernel hacker, not a bloated X app writer.
Please, if you plan on overgeneralizing, make sure you get your facts straight.
-fp
That's because you can accomplish most things that you would want to do with a car with just those three gears. The extra gears may make you a better driver if you know how to use them, but they are not strictly required.
There are a dozen buttons on my blender, and I don't understand what eight of them do, but I don't hear anybody claiming that blenders are overly complicated devices.
Because you can accomplish whatever you want to do using only the four buttons. The extra buttons may may make the belnder work more efficiently in some situations, but they are not required.
Only a tiny subsset of the vocabulary of most languages is used by the vast majority of the people, but nobody's calling on the Academie Francaise to eliminate 90% of the French vocabulary.
Because you can walk around France and take care of yourself quite well using only a very small subset of French.
No one objects to having more buttons, but people object to being required to learn what they all do in any particular situation. Imagine if you had a blender which required you to set every parameter using all 12 buttons before it would even start blending things for you--and if you pressed the buttons incorrectly, it would just sit there or maybe even ruin your food. You'd be up in arms about the confusing interface.
The interface to your manual-transmission car only has one more lever than the interface to an auto, so it's not much more complicated--but the mere presence of the clutch lever is not what makes a manual transmission more difficult to use, it's the fact that you're required to learn and understand the clutch in order to make your car move at all.
I have a positive modifier on Troll. When I mod someone Troll their karma should go UP!
I'm pretty sure that Nvidia didn't want to reengineer their mobile offerings for apple, either. Not that they didn't desire to, it's just that it's impractical. They only did the MX proabably because it easiest, and since this is the first foray into the Mac market, they wanted to keep it simple this time, and keep the endian issues in mind when designing the new chips.
I think it's impressive that they don't usually make cards but did so for Apple ( or does apple manufacture the cards? not sure).
BM
holy cow, everytime the word apple is even breathed in passing someone (hundreds of someone's actually) bleat off about the mouse button count... honest to god, i am starting to get sick of it.
1. plug in a mouse in the usb port in the back. 2.4.0 supports usb quite nicely (osx does as well, wink wink)
2. start a group on sourceforge to "fix" gnome to actually be functional with one mouse button.
sheesh
flame if you must
2 1337 4 u!
I love seeing otherwise intelligent commentators pumping a dry well. CmdrTaco, Apple seems completely unphased by your assault on it's supply of mouse-buttons. If that's the only resource that comes up short in your assesment of the new Apple HW, then I guess that's the kind of shortage we can live with. Microsoft itself has found that only 10% of users even use a right click AT ALL, EVER. Such a biting condemnation from a community that devotes space to such earth-shttering topics as hacking the Furby...
I guess you don't know how to use a modifier key? Ctl-click for contextual menus too complex a sequence for you to remember?
I admire the rest of the comments about Mac acceleration (newtonian, not processor), alternate booting sequences (the leather kind, not the startup kind), and the endless litany of lame jokes that reaveal that the Open-Source movement and the Slashdot crowd aren't above their own sort of bigotry. Why did you even post the story and link unless it was to offer a punching bag to the trolls? Are you just jealous that OSX is gonna do more to bring *nix to the masses than your 6+ years of obscure forum posting and mutual masturbation have? Can't bring yourself to admit that cool and stylish counts to some folks?
I look forward to being moderated down as flamebait. That seems to be the only way the moderators can respond to a true reflection.
-- Why oh why didn't I eat the Blue Girl?
Theo DeRaadt is not the lead developer at NetBSD. He is not a graphics guy, either. X was based on multiple button mice from a long time ago -- apple omitted multiple buttons as a simplification on Xerox's WIMP paradigm.
I don't know about you, but aside from moveing some xterms around, or clicking on a link in Mozilla, I really don't use the mouse too often. I mean, this is linux and we've got awesome shells and awesome command line utilities. And probably the best part about not using GUIs for important things is that you can telnet/ssh in from another location and do you work without feeling 'crippled'. On a website forum where folks have vi vs emacs arguments, I'm really amazed to see someone consider the number of mouse buttons to even be an issue.
> I dunno if you've ever used X before,
> but if I don't have 3 mouse buttons I
> feel crippled.
What's that tell you about the GUI then?
Hey - I like X just as much as the next guy with half a brain - it's certainly better than any M$ POS - but it still has it's downfalls.
because of THIS thread, I've decided to toss out my 3 button logitech mouse and go back to the hockey puck mouse that I got with my rev b imac.
Last time I checked, windows has drag and drop....
... on my Mac, Granted it's OS9 and using Kensington drivers.
Out of the box, OSX supports 2-buttons; I'm using it right now (literally)... I just right-clicked the window and got a contextual menu. I'm quite sure Kensington will release drivers for OSX that support as many damn buttons as you can handle... even Taco Boy. I'll bet he already ordered a TiG4.
>You know, as a materials engineer, I always find it interesting that a soon as a new material comes on the market it is immediately made into a golf club.
hahahahah!!!
I know im strange but i really found that funny.
Thanks.
The Logitech Optical Wheel Mouse. The drivers work beatifully on the MacOS, but it's a 3-button mouse all the way anyhow. And with a new 2.4 kernel, USB mice are supported. Instant happiness! Tony
All generalizations are false.
--
I like to watch.
The mouse buttons can be VERY easily emulated via the yaboot boot manager. Just pass it the boot varible for the adb mouse button keys, and wa-la, you're there. Besides, you've got your hands on the keyboard, so emulating the 2 mouse buttons is NOT a problem. LinuxPPC/Yellowdog/DebianPPC _all_ have support for USB mouses and keyboards, so just plug in a friggin' mouse. It's really sad to see the poster of an article so poorly informed, and such is often the case with Mr.Taco's posts.
So Slashdot is going to change its name? Henceforth, it will be known as,
Slashdot
For Nerds. Stuff that matters.
No more "News" for Nerds, no way.
--
--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
Okay, let me get this straight. You've managed to learn and use Linux (I assume), and yet you bemoan the "complexity" of two, sometimes even (got forbid) THREE mouse buttons. I mean really... next thing you know, keyboards will have two extra keys that will make menus pop up, sometimes you're even required to use these keys in combination with OTHER keys in order to perform some action. I mean, when will it stop.
I therefore propose this, computers which are far too complex as it is, should be reduced to a single unit with no buttons, no mouse, and no monitor. It will be absolutely functionless, but perfectly simple. I call this fabulous new creation "The Brick!" I already have a pattent on it in the works.
just wondered...
.0001% of the market.
aside from being somewhat arcane (blender *is* the vi of 3d) it gets nice and quick when you get used to its strange commands. it has such things as "hold down button 2 (middle) and press button 3(right) to enter a value here" while blender is a comicly extreme example, it does illustrate the need for a flexible interface.
even relevent to the mac crowd is maya. even in nt maya requires three mouse buttons, though you can kinda guess where they trying to get away from being as dependant as alias was... this may not matter that much, all the maya users i know are on nt now and most of them want linux, not the mac. (which may have more to do with not wanting to buy new hardware)
if it wasnt for the lack of mouse buttons these would make great *nix laptops. its really the only thing holding them back for that
unfortuneatly even tuxtops does not sell laptops with 3 mouse buttons. compaq, ibm, and sony do.
I hate mouses. Everytime I'm on my Solaris workstation and have to move my hand over twelve inches just to paste the text I've highlighted, I look longingly at my LinuxPPC Powerbook G3 and smile at its clever mousebutton emulation, which lets my hands stay on the keyboard where they belong. I recognize the value of multiple mousebuttons, and am very glad that they exist, but I hate using the mouse and hate losing valuable seconds when I have to move between the two input methods. Oh, that's right: Suns have those cut/paste/copy buttons off to the left side of the keyboard. It's still too far to travel.
I use emacs so my fingers can stay on the keyboard for eight hours straight. I also have CTS.
There are many reasons people use Macs other than the looks. One of the main reasons I prefer my Mac over my PC (yes, I own both) is that my PC is a piece of crap. I don't mean that its old or has bad parts, I built it using top of the line parts. My main complaint is that I've spent a couple of days just getting it backed up, formatting the hard disk, and reinstalling everything. I've done the exact same on my powerbook in two hours(I have a lot of stuff on these computers to reinstall). The PC never runs like I want it to, that is when it's running at all. I've purposely screwed up my Mac and it still manages to fix itself, yes FIX itself. It took two reboots but it seemed to figure out that I had renamed the system folder (something you can't do without messing around with stuff). I prefer my mac any day. It is only a 233Mhz but still seems fast as hell. If Apple ever goes out of business(an extremely unlikely possibily recently) I'm going to continue using my Mac even if I have to write my own programs for it.
I have a G3 powerbook, and can vouch that in MacOS when playing Quake3 the tap is considered the 2nd button whist the physical button is considered the first button. MacOS itself sees the 2nd button as the first button (or not at all if you disable taps)
In ppcLinux, I use chorded keys (fn-ctrl, fn-meta) for my 2nd and 3rd mouse buttons.. and I prefer it to a real 3 button mouse, it appears to be a lot harder to accidently lose the text you copied and plan to paste.
Seth
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
wait, you decided not to get the ti based on the one button, but you hate trackpads and wouldnt use it anyway? this doesnt make too much sense to me
if you hate trackpads youd have to get something else for most laptops anyway, and you could get that something else with as many buttons as you want. so why does the single button trackpad bother you?
the animal doesnt even have opposable thumbs, focker!
I think it is very naiive to deny that extra mouse buttons add immense power to any interface. The right-click menu (something Microsoft did right) projects a very nice object-oriented paradigm onto the UI of any desktop environment or application, the middle-button-drag for moving is very intuitive in Linux, and scrolling mouse wheels are really keen.
Without multiple buttons on the mouse, your right hand might as well be a stump, and your left hand (assuming you are a righty) gets overtaxed with both typing and hitting modifiers to complete your mouse clicks.
Sure, it makes sense from an application design POV to assume one mouse button as a kind of lowest common denominator, but I think adding increased functionality to second, third, and scrolling mouse buttons is a Good Thing when it comes to designing intuitive and powerful interfaces.
And the idea that any mouse button was intended to do ridiculous tasks like launching a web browser is just plain silly. The mouse is intended as a device for intuitively navigating a user interface, like an extention of your hand. Sure, it should be an option to bind whatever you want, but launching applications should be left to key bindings or UI menus.
-3Suns
~~~~
The Revolution will be Slashdotted
irc.macfiles.net (I think it's .net, maybe .com) #macfiles
More than the old #macfilez, great people there.
we are building a religion
a limited edition
we are now accepting callers
for these pendant key chains
the art department at a company my friend works for recently bought a dual-proc G4. No, wait, stop laughing, I haven't reached the punchline yet. The joke is that it's running... wait for it... MacOS 9! Yep, all the second CPU s doing is keeping the first warm and cozy. :-) The machine cost $4k
Perhaps I am just missing the joke but why is that funny? Since they are the art department I would imagine that the second processor has been quite busy running Photoshop. Most of the Mac applications that really need the extra processing power, especially those used in art departments (image, audio and video apps, 3D renderers etc.), use the second processor quite nicely. Which is why Apple has had MP machines for design professionals for several years. (well, off and on for several years.)
And $4K is a bargain when you take into account the increased productivity of your typical graphics guy using a Mac (esp. a dual processor Mac, even with OS 9) as opposed to a PeeCee. Some of that increased productivity is just due to famililarity, but some of it really is the result of a better and more consistent UI and that Photoshop really is faster on the PowerPC than on "faster" Intel chips.
Most of the Slashdot audience seems incapable of appreciating or even tolerating Apple-related news, so why does anyone bother, especially when the stories themselves can't transcend petty mouse button religious bigotry?
It has become clear that Slashdot is part of The Problem: its yellow journalism panders to the closed-mindedness and ignorance of the legions of Linux zealots and energizes them, creating a "movement" where there is nothing but a bunch of bored, directionless adolescents.
All Mac owners are free to go out and buy a USB mouse, if they want more buttons. It's even easier if you're a millionaire like CmdrTaco.
Mac's come with a single button, but you can buy a different mouse! FACT: Mac OS X recognizes and works correctly with third party mice's scroll wheel and extra buttons. Without any extra drivers. I know with a portable it's different, but the trackpad is so close to the keys that you are never gonna not be able to reach the contextual menu button that emulates a 2nd mouse button. Let's just get on with life. OK? This whole mouse button debate is really getting redundant.
--------
get jiggy w/ ayn rand!
Ok, let's see.
1) The logic board is a tad different- it has a differenet form factor to allow the machine to be thinner, longer, and shorter. Oh, and there's the whole different chipset thing.
2) Gosh, isn't the display 15.3 inches. Gosh, the old one was smaller. I guess that makes them different too.
3) I know that PC133 notebook RAM is just all over the place. I don't understand why they didn't pour millions into making it run cooler and not use up the battery.
4) Wouldn't you know it- different graphics chipset.
5) Almost forgot, supports a gig of RAM instead of 512.
6) Oh, and dual antenna wireless. Built in.
Yeah, I see your point, they are exactly the same. Come on, don't sell your shit here, I'm not buying.
"Computer Science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes."
-E. W. Dijkstra
You got the hat trick, your family must be proud
How the f*ck did this get modded up?
At what point to you go to the effort of installing Linux and making sure it boots and all of that, and NOT test ethernet. Now, perhaps their special ethernet cards require specail modules, but that would seem to say that they DON'T work with Linux, at least yet. Just try each module, does one of them work, theres the compatability.
However, since they have overlooked this, I will be happy to test it for them, simply send me a G4 powerbook and I'll test every ethernet module in existince.
>>Mac OS X is, without question, the first UNIX that will break into the mainstream desktop market. But unless they start thinking about being a little more practical with it and with their hardware designs, people just won't care enough to continue buying Mac>>
The entire move to Mac OS X is based on practicality. The ability to run BSD applications is finally going to kill the 'not enough apps' argument because somewhere in Cupertino, is somebody porting WINE to OS X. Right next door is the group that is taking all the open source standard bearers and creating automated ways of taking the code and wrapping a Mac OS X compliant interface on them.
As for their hardware designs, what is impractical about a 5 hour battery life? Or does 5.3 pounds in a notebook strike you as too flighty? Is adding a PCI slot to their desktop line and upping their bus speed to 133Mhz something that is a problem for you?
Apple may occasionally come out with something like their twentieth century machine or the cube but, on average, they have a higher percentage of hits per design risk than most other computer companies. This is partly because so much of the industry is made up of commoditized herd followers.
Whenever you innovate, you are going to have your share of duds and your share of hits. Apple's salvation is keeping the ratio of hits to duds as high as possible. These new machines are likely to further that goal.
DB
Rather than whine about the lack of multiple mouse buttons, program the trackpad to recognize taps in the corners as different events. Program them to do whatever you want..."right mouse" button, control click, command click, whatever. Program it like the Thinking Mouse I've been using on my Mac for five years-different button mapping, designed by me, for each application.
In other words, why are all these people so willing to work around the limitations of commercially available hardware unless it has an Apple logo on it?
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
If they put the eraser head in the middle, they would be ridiculed as not being original by the trolls, and probably sued by IBM. If they put in a second mouse button, they would be ridiculed by the trolls, and they would violate the principal tennets of Human Computer Interaction. If they put in a third mouse button, they would be ridiculed by the trolls, and people would install linux on then and not use the other two buttons enough to make the development costs worthwhile. Oh, and the application writers would be pleased as punch to modify all their apps to allow for violating elegant use. And the users would pay for upgrades so that they can (not) use the other mouse buttons.
If you want more buttons, either map it to the keyboard or get an external mouse. Write up an applescript to make the buttons do different things in different apps, or use the contour overdrive software that will handle that for you. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
"Computer Science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes."
-E. W. Dijkstra
1) I love how whenever there is an apple story, the trolls go and click their right mouse button to automatically dump in some sort of anti-apple diatribe that they just finished typing up in windows before they booted into linux to do the post.
/maybe/ 10% of people use the right mouse button. Now recall the first time you used a mouse- it was hard. Admit it. You couldn't even play minesweeper; you know your first OS wasn't linux, so don't even give me any crap. You /tried/ to play soliaire, and you accidently right clicked the cards. Finally you learned how to use your fingers for something other than picking your ass, and now you crave for a 10 button mouse so that you can open porn images with one, paste a variety of trolls with others, and MAYBE, just MAYBE do something useful with the rest.
2) Although I will not argue that for the intermediate/advanced user, the ability to map clever commands to extra buttons on a mouse is useful, it is not compatible with good HCI principles. As much of a shocker as it is, people like to know that whenever they do a certain thing on a computer, it will always have the same result. When I click once on a file, I select it. A second time, I can rename it. Do it fast and I will run it. Your grandmother does not want to have to right click, scroll down to rename, and select it with the left mouse button. She does not want to right click an area in photoshop and paint in the background color and right click in paint shop pro and switch images (I made this up, but the point is that the event is inconsistent). In fact, if Linux is to be on the desktop, it could learn from simplifying things a bit.
If you want three buttons on an apple, plug in a mouse- that is what I do. The contour overdrive lets me scroll on webpages, right click to do what I want it to (open a new window in IE, bring up context menu's, etc). But the key is, the left button / the "only button" will always do what I want it to. Application developers don't have to worry that because Gates Inc makes right clicking bring up context menus that they have to also.
Sorry for the rambling rant, I am just sick of this stupid mouse button crap. We are a minority. My HCI text says that
Good night. Sorry to the polite people.
"Computer Science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes."
-E. W. Dijkstra
When I first got my powerbook I didn't have a mouse. It took some getting used to, but when I finally did get one I actually preferred the trackpad. I can move around on the screen much faster, and with enough practice the precision is almost as good.
As for the single button, the way I use my trackpad it seems like a second button would be pretty alkward to hit.
---If you can't trust a nerd, who can you trust?
As far as I know, the TiBook uses HDTV standards. the monitor is 1.5inch wider than a normal monitor. I can't remember the exact ratio but ...
How does X cope with this?
I like meat helmets.
I was considering purchasing one of these sweet little titanium laptops, that is, until I found out they only have one mouse button. Why in the world would you ruin such a sweet machine by removing 2 of the mouse buttons?
I planned on either putting OSX or Black Lab linux on it, but I guess I'll be sticking with with some sort of intel based laptop. Sad really.
Another thing, I really hate trackpads. I've gotten used to them, but I still really hate them. I wish laptops would come with the little eraser like trackpoint in the middle of the keyboard. They could also come with a trackpad and allow you to disable one in the BIOS.
Need Free Juniper/NetScreen Support? JuniperForum
Last I've heard, in the non-server edition, they've obscured the *nix parts enough that only someone who wanted to get to them could.
/etc, /bin and such by default when the user is in the GUI. Just launch Terminal and you can see everything. You can change the default behavior of the GUI (at least in the beta), by flipping a bit in an XML file.
/etc and bash. It's going to consist of taking the functionality and features of Unix, and wrapping them in a consistent, approachable user interface. The masses aren't going to change for Unix. Unix will have to change for the masses (I know I sound like a broken record).
I don't know what this means, exactly. OSX hides things like
You should also get up to speed on the differences between Mac OS X (shipping in March) and the new version of Mac OS X Server (shipping April/May). They are from the same codebase, and are considerably different that Mac OS X Server 1.2 (essentially Rhapsody), which is currently available.
Bringing "Unix to the masses" isn't going to consist of expecting everyone to become comfortable with
This thing also runs on Mach, which is SLOW. (MKlinux anyone?)
There is a big difference in between MkLinux and Darwin.
- Scott
--
Scott Stevenson
WildTofu
Scott Stevenson
Tree House Ideas
Does LinuxPPC run faster? Using similar software, which system runs the app faster? Which OS eats up more memory? etc.
Now, I like Linux as much as the next guy (actually I prefer FreeBSD but that is another story), but I'm more interested in Mac OS X than running LinuxPPC.
--
It's either on the beat or off the beat, it's that easy.
I moderate therefore I rule!
--
Why are people complaining about one button mice and odd chipsets? The fact of the matter is, Linux runs very usable on a mac, even for a PC convert as myself.
:/ But I have my Thinking Mouse when I need it.
:)
Mice - the Linux kernel naturally supports 3 button mice. 2 button is usable, 3 is great. in the proper environment, a single button is still valid, though in general, a PC user is just to used too multi-button to even try single button for more than 5 minutes. Now, since Linux knows what a 3 button mouse is, all you need is drivers that do those buttons right. Guess what... they're already there. the Kensington Thinking mouse (4 button) has support for the three standard buttons. 4th, who knows. hack in support if you like clickers and it isn't already there. As for powerbooks, of which I own one (a "PDQ"), there are ways of emulating two or three buttons. This can be done using meta-click combos, or keys, like what I use, F11/F12. no problem. As for USB, Linux/PPC had decent usable USB support a couple stable kernels before x86 had rudimentary USB support, including the "new input layer" and all the normal USB. Conclusion: the only gripe about buttons one can have is that multi-'s aren't standard included, and in the case of a powerbook, because its built in, you suddenly feel obligated to use complicated finger combos, or as with mine, two handed...
"Proprietary" chipsets: some chips in the mac are similar to x86, like the USB controller, and are fairly well supported accross x86 and ppc in parallel. Firewire support is coming along, and most other features tend to be well supported within maybe 6 months of their release, often with little help from Apple. ATI did work with Ben Herrenschmidt on an issue that came up, and I commend them on taking that initiative. There also tend to be endian issues here and there, like in pcmcia (which works fairly well) and video. x86 have a habit of looking the other way.
Looking at Apple's released specs, the block diagram looks similar to the iBook and Cube, in that it has the core IO board "KeyLargo" and other ASICs are similar. just a matter of time before this bad boy works perfectly.
Basically, in terms of hardware support, the only thing hindering the Linux/PPC crowd is that it isn't trendy enough that things go quickly, and there is also the fact that Linus is quite obviously x86-biased. Binary-only distribution of programs also tend to hurt usability, if you go for those sorts. MTVp is still antique and unsupported, and since the open-sourcing, OpenOffice has been coming along, but is not quite there yet. (No, OpenOffice doesn't just compile on linux/ppc straight. It is to be considered a port, as it is taking that sort of effort to get it there)
I think the next big step in linux/ppc's development is user support. i've noticed small annoying issues that nobody addresses. User support is growing, now thanks to new stable distributions like Suse, Debian, etc, and the continued improving efforts of LinuxPPC Inc. and TerraSoft. But we have a way to go yet before it stays on par consistant with x86.
my $.02
(Using Linux 4 years, converted from PC to Mac hardware 2 years ago.)
Lycestra
...not as sad as Linux/UNIX being stuck with X-windows.
They can't have done that just for the sake of marketing, can they?
:)
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