Slashdot Mirror
Distributed.net CSC Success
dbaker let us know that distributed.net has finished another one, half an hour ago as I write this. IIRC, they had to redo part of the keyspace, right? Looks like it didn't slow the project down too much.
← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)
Another wonderful example of American courtesy and manners...
Quick (serious) question: If you believe we're all just glorified monkeys, how can you go on living?
What exactly are you searching for with Set@Home when you have absolutely no idea what the signal will look like.
Even presuming that somewhere out in the galaxy there is a planet that is noisier that ours, the chances of finding it while scanning across the infinite number of directions in the sky you can point a reciever is next to nil.
It would be far more likely we would be visited openly and obviously in person than it would be likely to find a signal that has been over whelmed by general background noise.
I would find volunteering idle cycles to a particle accelerator lab doing incredibly complex simulations more satisfying.
At least there is prize money for the d.net competitions too.
FDE
He probably just heard a UK'er refer to the US as the "colony."
There's no need to extrapolate his actions and judge us all the same though. There are something like 260+ million of us, and we're not all the same.
My PE teacher from junior high refered to us (as in modern day US citizens) as the colonists. Then he made us run laps. I never figured out why, if he hated us so much, did he bother immigrating here.
Imagine a world populated by Vikings or Native Americans or intelligent squid. Definately "life". Definately "intelligent". Definately won't be found by SETI. Hey, they're your CPU cycles. Do what you want with them.
> An earlier poster commented that they believed it was a waste of CPU cycles,
> but the whole idea behind such an effort, if I'm remembering correctly,
> was that those CPU cycles would have been unused anyway.
You are wasting power. Linux (and some other decent OSs) halts the CPU on idle cycles. This saves power on many CPU types.
Somewhere I read a calculation on how much power the SETI project comsumes, I can't remember the figure, but it was MUCH higher than I would have thought...
Think about this for a moment. 1 GHZ or 1 MHZ does it matter? It may be faster but in the end the architecture is still basic. Something revolutionary would have to be introduced to make anything worth noticing happen. All we get now is a percentage increase. Big whoop. 2 GHZ, 3 GHZ, 1 THZ, unless a new design is implemented we are still running by percentage.
I've had Win98 up for over a week now (really) and just yesterday I left Netscape running while I went off to work.. came back and all was well. Total time running was somewhat over 12 hours, though I don't have a specific time.
:-) ], I have a Linux box sitting next to this one with an uptime of 18 days. (Last time since I moved it)
To be fair to the Linux zealots [
And they have been working on that OGR thing since William the Conqueror set foot on english soil. How likely is it to be bug free, efficient and out if nobody else decides to put some competition pressure on them?
> At the point of success, distributed.net had
> checked over 98% of the CSC keyspace.
Does this strike anyone else as being weird? What terrible luck to have to search 98% of the space to find it!
Can some maths geek tell us the odds on that please?
Yeah, you're all fucking assholes in completely different ways.
SETI would also have a shitload of trouble trying to fimd a planet full of ACs. What's your point?
Wow! Just think, it didn't crash for a whole TWELVE HOURS while you WEREN'T USING IT! Golly!
You took Physics 201/202 and you don't remember the difference between kinetic energy and electrical energy? Well, hello Dr. Einstein!
Do you know what you're talking about? Seti@home has a "few" "minor" issues. 1. They have more client time than they can make use of, something like 5 times as many users as they can feed if i remember correctly. 2. They have shown time and time again that their opinion of their uses is "Fuck them.", and I at least don't like this. 3. They have something like 100times the resources of d.net, however experience something like 100times the downtime. Just a few thoughts.
With d.net, you're at least looking for something that's actually THERE.
With SETI, your cyles are wasted COMPLETELY.
2%
It's not so much about cracking the code, it's all about your ranking on the statistics page. I actually bothered to setup a cluster server for it. I don't know, maybe I just need to work on an already damaged ego. If anything else, CSC was cracked on my birthday. Yay! :P
>I'm finding encryption challenges progressively lamer. What are we supposed do be doing?
[snip]
>The RC5 project (which is pretty useless at this point), has already proved that if you're using RC5 encryption with a 64-bit key length, for the moment, you're safe unless you're paranoid about strange people with phenomenal amounts of cracking power. Is this what we want to prove? that 64-bit keys are good enough?
Seems to me what distributed.net is trying to prove has less to do with encryption than with distributed computing. When you look at the number of keys involved in even the smaller contests relative to the timeframes involved, I think they've succeeded.
RSA and CS Systems are trying to prove something about encryption, and that's why they're fronting $10,000 or E10,000 to the winner. I don't think the money is wasted, either. distributed.net uses only the left-over cycles from computers whose primary usage is something else. It seems reasonable that a dedicated machine would be even faster (no distractions), more reliable (distributed.net had to recycle CSC blocks several times because people didn't return them), more focussed (homogenous cpu's) and more cost effective (why buy cpu's with CDROM's, modems, all those hard drives) than the aggregate "computer" pulled together by distributed.net.
Sounds like you got the collective, very artifical, intelligence down already. So what's the point?
Adam Beberg was one of the founders of distributed.net. While their first contests were all encryption related Adam really wanted to pursue general distributed computing problems. v3 of the D.net client was supposed to have a plugin type model which would allow people to run one client and pick the problems, be it encryption, primes, ogr or even seti. It seems that the timing was off because Adam decided to leave d.net to work on cosmo, the client that would have been v3.
Why can't everyone stop fighting over which project to support and show enthusiasm for cosmo. Once it has large install base much more work could be completed. Each new problem would not require a whole new client. People could easily work on SETI when they have unchecked data and look for large primes, or fit circles into boxes the rest of the time. Currently each of these projects require a seperate download and process fighting for my spare cycles.
Distributed.Net is to prove to the brain dead politicians that the encryption can really be broken. Not in theory, but in real life.
OGR is used, among other things, for astrophysics - very useful in fact. As it goes, anyone who was with SETI@home in the early days might remember the way their super, high power/cost systems did such wonderfull things as send out the same hundred-and-a-bit workunits out, for about a week. The client is intrusive, and because I have so many automatic net apps, I can't have autodial on, so it's sitting their useless once it's finished a block until I dial up - all unlike d.net. Add that to the unit's size (160 d.net work units is less than 2kb - 1 Seti unit is 250kb. Both last be about a day. Beids, have you seen the window Arracebo has? It's not large. Add that to the limited frequency it's scanning for the @home project, and you realise just how much of a pure PR exercise it is. On the other hand, in the 100-odd days I've been running d.net's clients, most of the time I've never even noticed they're there. They've never crashed, the update themselves quietly, and automatically whenever I'm online. In short, it's small, and perfectly formed. In addition, I've found most of the d.net participants polite, and very helpfull on a number of topics. all the seti@home users on the newsgroup sounded like whinging babies, and the Dcypher lot are nothing but sniping children. I've never spoken to any of the admins of any project except for D.net - they're just not accessable, but the d.net admins are friendly, and up for a laugh - heck, one's even shown me pictures of his house - I've never met them, and hadn't even been in their chat room until mid-december. That's why D.net has such a record. One satisfied (and british) D.net user
The whole problem with distributed computing is that there are not many applications that can be broken down into a distributed application. I guess all there are right now is d.net, prime95, seti@home (yech!)... I can't think of any others. A couple of months ago, I read an article about a possible weather modelling application, where the clients would download a set of parameters, crunch the weather model starting 50 years in the past, and if the model came close to actual weather patterns, run the model 50 years into the future. It sounded like a good idea, and I signed up for a mailing list, but I haven't heard anything since. Has anybody else read about this? Of course, there's all the practical problems like nuclear testing that will never be distributed over the internet for security reasons... so scratch that off list. Basically, I guess I'm just wondering if anybody has any good ideas for distributed projects, or has heard about any good projects... What better forum than /. to brainstorm new ideas... - Only AC because I'm too damn lazy to make an account...
I am running Win98/Netscape with *checking* 6 windows open as I type. This is a typical load for me, with up to 15 Netscape windows running.
:-)
What else? GetRight, CodeWright, ICQ, SecureCRT. I never seem to have any problems unless I load up too big a page. Then Netscape crashes horribly and takes down all my Netscape windows. Doesn't matter how much swap I have available, Netscape seems to ignore it. Looks like it needs real actual RAM. Go figure.
My other machine runs X/Netscape and has similar problems. Usually 500+ comment slash pages in flat mode do it every time.
yes, and we would expect another civ. trying to communicate to use exactly those methods. If they're trying to communicate, they won't be making themselves difficult to detect...
The point I was trying to make was that for the signal to reach us you need to waste an awful lot of energy on transmitting that carrier. Get rid of it and you can use the energy more wisely, thus reaching farther.
If you're looking for for something that fills the equation useful+success. Just to letcha know.
I just though I'd repost Nugget's .plan for clarification on the team issue n' stuff.
Hi. I'm speaking here as a representative of the Mac coding team for distributed.net.
You're basically right on MacCSC. We're not wonderfully happy with its performance, but it does get the job done. The coders were extremely busy getting the Mac client to exist, and by the time it was stable and usable, CSC was almost over - G4 core optimization would have been next to futile. (Don't interpret me as making excuses; just explaining.)
RC5 performance, on the other hand, is mind-numbingly cool.
The lagging on 68k machines is due to timing issues; they're on the shor t list of Stuff To Fix.
We agree wholehartedly with the philosophy of release early, release often and adhere to it wherever possible. (I'm actually building a new client for seeding to our beta testers in the background as I write this.)
You aren't rambling offtopic at all - after all, this is slashdot. :) Pleased to hear the comments; rest assured we're working on fixing everything you mention. Feel free to contact me at any time (I'm also vetere@distributed.net) for any reason.
Gee, I guess it's easy to dismiss S@h, since S@h have released a total of 7 versions, only 3 publicly - and D.Net have done hundreds (thousands?). Since D.Net has been running for years and S@h maybe for a year. Since S@h are a maybe a week away from a major re-write that will stop most of the (current) hacks and cheats (and bugs?). I guess it's easy to dismiss it, isn't it. Jerk.
How's RC-5 doing?
Here's the stats:
http://www.distributed.net/statistics/
and...
http://www.distributed.net/statistics/
Scroll down a bit to get to RC-5.
First of all, I think that Distributed.net is valuable and don't want people to jump ship. But if you're searching for another project, then check out the Great Internet Mersenne Prime Search. The project has already succeeded in finding many primes and is counting at about 1000 gigaflops. There is software for Linux, Freebsd, OS/2, Mac and Windows. And as a nice carrot, there's also a $100,000.00 contest for the next research discovery of a 10 million digit prime.
OTOH, I really think that Seti@Home is a waste of time and energy. It sure sounds sexy to search for E.T. but the probability of finding something is really next to nothing.
d.net also cracked rc5-56.
heh. i was just gonna say that. but i wonder how it'd be distributed. "okay, your workblock: find out numbers 1 through 1000000. next person, you do numbers 1000001 through 9000000. next person, you do ..." pi can be found to enough digits on just one processor, and i haven't really seen many algorithms that would do well paralellized. i did find an algorithm that finds n digits in ln n time... it sounds fast, but i was stuck with the gmp library, and didn't feel like writing my own arbitrary precision stuff.
-- My Sig is a P228.
Actually, just because pi is irrational does not mean that it can't have a repeating pattern. It only means that it can't be a strict pattern.
.'s are different numbers.
For example, there could be a point in pi that after which the number 7 would never appear again.
Or it might end up looking like 1.1.1.1.1.1.1 where all the
There's a difference between symmetric key length and asymmetric key length. For example, 64 bits in RC5 seems pretty damn uncrackable, but 64 bits in an asymmetric cipher (ElGamal, or RSA) is near useless.
By the way, is there already a public cipher algorithm that uses keys longer than 256 bits (twofish and some others)? Not counting RC4, which has basically infinite maximum key length, with restrictions IIRC.
Gain useful insights. Win valuable prizes. Socialize with staffers.
The pentium processor did not/does not support the Halt/Idle/Noop instruction. This I found out when using waterfall (or some other program).
The point is, that, whilst the computer is turned on, a lot of power is consumed anyway, and the increase used by calculating something is insignificant compared to the Cooling Fan power being consumed (just how *noisy* are they?). You want to conserve power, then don't use a computer. Booting on and off all day doesn't help, as the transient power load at boot time is quite significant.
Deja Moo: The Feeling You've Heard This Bull Before
.my 2p
While some of SETI's algorithms may be inefficient, they still have problems with cheating, and they have far more computing power than they expected. They'll probably finish with their data backlog by the end of the year, which'll mean that they'll have to come up with new types of analysis or more data, as there won't be anything for the machines to do.
Forward, retransmit, or republish anything I say here. Just don't misquote me.
http://www.sdsc.edu/Press/00/010500_topranks.html http://stats.distributed.net/rc5-64/psummary.php3? id=243289 now that is a fast computer
Cosm. A guy from d.net split to take off on his own idea. I followed it for awhile, but for all I know it's fizzled. (sorry no link)
-------
CAIMLAS
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
-------
CAIMLAS
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
Well actually not really. They completed the whole keyspace and then realized that 25% needed to be redone. So the key was in it. Overall they could have finished it about 8-9 days ago if it wern't for this small mishap.
..only say that the computer that found the machine was a Sparc..
Quick (serious) question: If you believe that all the life in the universe is on this rock, how can you go on living?
Quick, serious answer: Because what we've got going on this rock is plenty enough interesting to stick around for.
Works for me, at any rate.
I take it that you've never read Contact. While the movie only had a simple message for her to bring back and a few hours of static on her video recorder there was a much better message in the book.
--Spoiler for the book--
Essentially the beings at the end of the wormhole express ride had discovered the true Bible, aka word of the creator. While the scientists were there visiting the core the beings pointed them to where the works were recorded, inside transcendental numbers.
When they got back she set her supercomputers to use the SETI pattern recognition routines on Pi. After a few billion digits or so the computers found something.
on slashdot right now
people are writing haikus
i do not know why
this is not my sig
it is another haiku
i am leaving, bye
What if it was in the keyspace *after* the part that had to be redone?
So much for your logic...
If the key was in the part that had to be redone then I wonder when we would have found it had it been ok the first go? oh well they got it now and that is the important part.
Again, why is I have to come to slashdot to find a d.net URL? Why is there no reference (as of 2:08am ET Sunday 1/16/2000) on the main web page, the main CSC page, the CSC stats page, anyone's .plan, and nothing CSC related in sight in /pressroom?
This makes me wonder what else may be hiding in their html directory.
ate nachos tonight
with chicken salsa and cheese
gonna get the poops
the seti@home client is the biggest crock. not only is it not fully optimized, but it is purposefully slower so that the turnover isn't as quick. too many people are running it, and there just isn't enough data to be processed. whereas running the d.net MAY (speculation) actually be doing some good.
I'm not saying seti@home is a bad project, but waaaay too many people are running it. cycles are getting wasted...cycles that could be used on d.net (and if you're real lucky, maybe you could make yourself some money)
Have you even read seti's plans? Obviously not.
What exactly are you searching for with Set@Home when you have absolutely no idea what the signal will look like.
Actually they have a damned good idea what it will look like, a narrow peak. These are not known to occur in nature, but any technology using the radio spectrum for communication will cause these.
Even presuming that somewhere out in the galaxy there is a planet that is noisier that ours, the chances of finding it while scanning across the infinite number of directions in the sky you can point a reciever is next to nil.
Um... they arn't scanning randomly, they are targeting specific regions of space that are most similar to ours, hence a higher chance a similar planet could exist.
very off-topic, but I'm swedish. :)
Just using a uk provider.
I got the news slighly quicker than slashdot posted it, not often that happens.. :)
Ah, well.. all puters are back to rc5 now
As seen in http://n0cgi.distributed.net/cgi/dnet-finger.cgi?u ser=nugget, he was not on a team, and lives in the US.
I'm proud to have contributed to CSC since day one and I can't wait for OGR to start up!
--------
Oscarfish.com: tropical fish with attitude. Way t
It's a perfectly logical statement. I think you may have just misinterpreted it.
The point here is that if I don't believe in ET, I'm not going to use my cpu cycles to look for him. If I know that the box over there in the corner is empty, I'm not going to go and look in the box just to make sure.
I believe strongly enough that there *isn't* extra terrestrial intelligence that I wouldn't feel productive looking for it. Saying that I don't belive in ET is simply my reasoning for not being involved in seti@home.
Jeremy
Looking for a Python IRC bot?
Umm, that's not a logical statement. If you don't want to looks for aliens that's fine.It's simply your choice.
But saying you don't believe in them has no correlation to whether or not they are actually out there. They might exist regardless of what you believe.
Ignore Alien Orders
Well, it's not illogical to assume that a civilization that wanted to be found would continue to transmit using radio signals (for reasons that are obvious to us anyway). Plus there's the chance we'll pick up random radio signals just like we've been sending for the last 70+ years.
Incidentally, there are also projects searching for those very laser-light signals you mention, as well.
Ignore Alien Orders
I've got an even cooler project running on my computer. Its called Win98/Netscape. See what you do is you try and see how long you can keep the two running together without a crash. My best time so far is 17min. 42sec. And I challenge all of you to try and beat that time. Do you feel lucky? Well do you?
I hear ya! I must have sent Seti 5 straight packets of data that I never got credit for. I tried to contact them to see if they at least got the packets, to know if I was at least making a contribution to the effort. I got no response. Well, if anyone else out there has a giant radio telescope and needs my spare cpu cycles then let me know.
>Yes, such algorithms exist. The Bailey-Borwein-Plouffe algorithm can compute an arbitrary digit of pi in almost linear time.
... and a distributed implementation of it is currently computing the quadrillionth bit of Pi at http://www.cecm.sfu.ca/projects/pihex/
Tarsnap: Online backups for the truly paranoid
distributed.net is a known and proven source for ranking the status of encryption. They are not a malicous orgainization, but rather a testbed, placing an encryption technology under intense scrutiny and forcing it to prove it's worth. Where CSS (or its relacement) placed under such scrutiny, the results may be enough to have future lawsuits thrown out of court. (and therefore lessening the slashdot posts/comments on this subject... no offense, but it is getting kind of old. There is very little new information on the subject left)
Huh? Places encryption technologies under intense scrutinies?
Surely all distributed.net does is brute force attack whatever is thrown at it by virtue of having an immense amount of computing power available to it worldwide. AFAIK it doesn't do cryptanalysis of the encryption algorithm used or place the algorithm under intense mathmatical scrutiny of any kind.
Why doesn't the gene pool have a life guard?
well, actually, there was an article about building pentiums on slashdot several weeks back that had mentioned intel's distributed computing system... something along the lines of the spare cycles of all of their computers worldwide being used to test paths on a processor. I would imagine that this would not be extremely hard or expensive to set up for any large corporation or university. at the very least, it would be cheaper than buying that much computing power.
Hows RC5 going? should be done within due time i imagine...
Learn to know, the dark side of the force, and you will achieve a power greater than any Jedi...the power to save your w
"I can imagine a world without war, without hate. Then I can imagine us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it." -- Jack Handey
I'm going to live forever or die trying.
Great, now distributed.net has done what that company wanted them to. According to the CS Group, this shows:m )
a.that the only possible attack against CS-Cipher is exhaustive key search (brute force attack).
b.the extreme robustness of CS-Cipher.
(http://www.cie-signaux.fr/security/challeng.ht
Anybody with any crypto clue will be able to tell you it shows neither. I think it's really sad that distributed.net wasted its time on this marketing crap.
d.net was going to make v3 this beautiful general distributed computing client but they decided they could not wait for cosmo to be completed. See another comment I made.
Hmm, I don't recall someone called Anonymous Coward trying to contact me, but I would have enjoyed answering his email :) Let me use this opportunity to congratulate the d.net user base for their new code cracking success. D.net certainly can be envied for the loyality their contributors showed through the daisy chain of problems their CSC effort had. I hope we will be able to gather the same breed of supporters as we keep expanding and adding projects. I'd also like to thank the 3,100 contributors who were part of the DCypher.Net CSC effort which, as you know, was the first CSC effort to roll out to the public. We reached around 11% of the keyspace when the key was found. This made our users about 36.9% more efficient than the competing effort, which I think is a very good basis for our future work considering our significantly lesser experience with distributed projects. DCypher.Net is here to stay and is working on the Gamma Flux project as we speak, with another two being in preparation for launch during the next few weeks. Also keep an eye open for tomorrow, when we'll release news about a high-profile reinforcement for our team. We wish d.net good luck at completing the RC5 effort, keep cracking folks.
ProcessTree - Isn't it time your computers started paying for itsel
There wouldn't be any real need for a whole distributed.net scale effort to recover the CSS keys still remaining out of the 400-odd keys on the DVDs. An average computer can crack one in a matter of hours (minutes?) and certainly wouldn't take longer than a day. I think that I can probably gather enough CPU cycles to break all 400 within a week or so without much effort (gotta love stupid purchasing decisions: "Well, everybody wanted a ccNUMA machine, but since we think vector processing machines look cooler, we're budgeting for them instead, even though for your application, they're less cost-effective." Result: VPM sits unused in the corner with average load 5% since nobody wants to rewrite/recompile their code to run on it efficiently).
SETI@Home is more of a waste because the ack of optimization and all the bugs and cheaters they have in it. Distributed.net is way more organized and worth while.
seriously
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
I hate to change the subject of the conversation, but I would appreciate some help. I currently enrolledin a 4year research course. I will be competiing in the Intel science fair my senior year of high school. I would appreciate it if anyone in the field of cryptography coudl assit me with my research. I am mainly looking for a menotr but anyoen who could spare some time to discuss a possible hypothesis woudl be duly recognized in my paper and would be a great help. Thank you in advance I can be reached at >
I'm really glad CSC is done, because the Mac OS CSC client sucks. Doing CSC, my P/233 running Linux 2.2.14 was outperforming a G3/300 running Mac OS 9. That was just scary. Plus, on slower Macs, the CSC client lagged the whole system really badly.
But that's all done now. The rc5 client is fine. It even supports AltiVec - makes me wish I had a G4!
Hmm, I guess this is kind of off-topic rambling. Oops. I'll stop now.
$x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
$x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
I'm finding encryption challenges progressively lamer. What are we supposed do be doing? Besides trying to win money with chances which rival that of your average US state lottery, I think we're trying to prove that the encryption that the government wants to restrict us to is weak. The DES projects have proved this - for single pass 56-bit DES keys, the code can be broken quickly if you have a huge amount of cracking power available to you. The CSC project has proved that it's a little harder right now but it can be done. The RC5 project (which is pretty useless at this point), has already proved that if you're using RC5 encryption with a 64-bit key length, for the moment, you're safe unless you're paranoid about strange people with phenomenal amounts of cracking power. Is this what we want to prove? that 64-bit keys are good enough? I was under the impression we wanted free access to 128-512-bit keys for everyone.
The one thing which still interests me is the use of these contests as a way to chart CPU power over time. The RC5 project is currently about 17.5% complete, after 815 days - but look at how much faster the second 1% went compared to the first 1%. This is (among other things) Moore's law in action. The one thing that disappoints me about the CSC project is that there never got to be a AltiVec (Velocity Engine) enabled version for powerpc G4s. The RC5 client now has a AltiVec version and it's about a 4x speed improvement. That's impressive.
I think projects like GIMPS and OGR are far more useful and worthwhile. I don't like SETI because of the especially closed method of the project and the rather arrogant idea that looking for something, which may or may not be there, in a way that may or may not find it, while we may or may not understand what we're doing, is useful.
I will continue to crack RC5 blocks until something better comes along.
I'm not a smorgasbord.
Incidentally, there are also projects searching for those very laser-light signals you mention, as well.
Um... wouldn't a laser signal have to be pointed directly at the intended target? Yes I know all about divergence and all those great things but looking for laser communications perhaps not intended for us seems rather silly.
Most excellent!
Congrats to the guys at Distributed.net, the guy who submitted the winning key, and his team (if he was on a team).
Now we can get back to that darn RC5-64 contest.
I really wanna see what some of these new systems hitting the market will do (1Ghz Kryotech Athlon system?).
Anyone else built a big-arsed cluster to work on this yet?
Somebody sneak a client on a disk into the Fermi-Lab cluster! =)
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
SETI@home v2 should be released soon. I hope anyone who feels as you do would give it another chance - they've redone a lot of useful stuff in the software...
My SETI(@home) pages and club info.
Check in a week or so.
This is serious. I mean, if I thought for one second that all we (and the universe) had to look forward to for the rest of eternity was the human race spreading like a virus, I'd kill myself. The hope that we'll meet something fundamentally different from ourselves, some time, keeps me going. (The hope that it will be in my lifetime, keeps me productive ;)
Hey, I wouldn't mind getting my name on the list of people who've discovered Mersenne primes, especially since it includes people like Euler.
I do it because it's fun, but there's also a 10,000 Euro prize for the winner. Of course, some of this money goes to distributed.net to maintain the network, some to charity, and the remaining to the winner. Still, 2,000 Euros is nothing to scoff at.
There are other project coming, such as the OGR project. It has nothing to do with encryption.
Phobos - Greek word for fear or flight
Finding primes: The only reasons are fame and money. Do they find anything? Yes, but at essentially random times.
:-).
Finding keys: The only reasons are fame and money. Do they find anything? Yes, at highly predictable times (hence making the actual finding a trivial matter).
Finding extra-terrestrial life: Fame, money(?), one of the greatest scientific and philisophical questions in history answered. Do they find anything? Nope, and they aren't likely to anytime soon for various reasons.
So you can either have useless+sucess or useful+failure.
Someone mentioned a future distributed.net project that was not key cracking and actually had reason for existance. When i am not so tired, I will look into this, but it really looks like the way to go.
Incedentally, I run two copies of Prime95 and the Seti screensaver on a 4 hour delay. Draw conclusions about my personality from that
Why do you assume that distributed.net will never do anything but cracking encryption? They're working on setting up a way to distribute the calculation of Optimal Golomb Rulers, a mathematical concept that has proven real-life uses.
And what good would it do to give more CPU resources to SETI@Home at this point? Triple- and quadruple-checking their limited data doesn't seem very efficient to me.
A distributed calculation of pi would be cool, but are there any algorithms to find digits of pi without having calculated the previous digits? If not, it can't be distributed.
--
Win dain a lotica, en vai tu ri silota
CSS keys can be recovered in seconds (and have.) See the LiVid mailing list archives (www.linuxvideo.org) for several explanations, example code, and a large block of keys recovered with the code.
CSS is laughablly weak.
The issue at hand is not that CSS is "simple" to break. The issue is, should a CSS case be brought up in court by the Big Bad Lawyers, what would happen?
Actually, I think the main issue is that by breaking CSS this way we can redistribute DeCSS with all the keys without facing a reverse engineering charge.
Jay
_________________________
Believe it or not, there are some people who don't believe in extra terrestrial intelligence. And those people aren't all psycho fundies either. We choose to work on Distributed.net because to us, it's far more purposeful than seti at home, which would be like looking in an empty box for...something.
We could also run Prime95 but I would rather discover how easy (or hard) it is to crack encryption than waste my cpu cycles looking for a bigger prime number.
So, given the choice between looking for something in an empty box, or finding the next big prime number (which does, um, nothing for number theory) we choose to crack codes, which might prove useful (primarily in discovering what kind of computing power is necessary to do it).
Jeremy
Looking for a Python IRC bot?
But what if radio signals are bad for their genetic makeup, which is why they don't use them and aren't answering our calls? Maybe Seti is killing them slowly! And all of us using the client are accomplices to murder. Maybe they're on their way here right now to kick our sorry little Seti-asses. Or maybe they're trying to mentally weaken us through TV(our great weakness.) Good example:Professional Wrestling. Or maybe radio waves are good for there libido, and they're coming here to thank us for helping to perpetuate their race. Or maybe its late and I need sleep.
Yeah, last I heard they were doing that until they can get more telescope time. They've also released newer versions of the client which do some more checking on older data.
Adam Beberg was one of the founders of distributed.net. While their first contests were all encryption related Adam really wanted to pursue general distributed computing problems. v3 of the D.net client was supposed to have a plugin type model which would allow people to run one client and pick the problems, be it encryption, primes, ogr or even seti. It seems that the timing was off because Adam decided to leave d.net to work on cosmo, the client that would have been v3.
Why can't everyone stop fighting over which project to support and show enthusiasm for cosmo. Once it has wide spread use much more work could be completed. Each new problem would not require a whole new client. People could easily work on SETI when they have unchecked data and look for large primes, or fit circles into boxes the rest of the time. Currentlt each project requires a seperate download.
I would hope that CPU resources that currently valuable or needed are not being used on distributed computing projects like these. That thought aside, pi most certainly does NOT have a repeating pattern. It is irrational (cannot be represented as a fraction of two integers) and transcendental (is not the root of any algebraic equation). The proof of the transcendence of pi is involved, but the proof of its irrationality is significantly simplier, relying on basic integration, infinite series, and one trivial property of asymtopic growth of recurrence relations.
Try http://www.seanet.com/~ksbrown/kmath313.htm
Cracked Code wins challenge
Winner did use Solaris
and I think, 'So what?'
They've also released newer versions of the client which do some more checking on older data.
Um, no they haven't released newer versions. According to press releases they were going to release the new version (2.0) sometime last week, but it never showed up and nobody on the project ever said anything about it. The fundemental lack of respect or responses (which this is only one example of) from the team running seti@home is the reason I don't donate my time to it anymore.
Perhaps its time to reallocate our valuable and abundant CPU resources to things like SETI@Home or perhaps a project to distribute the calculation of pi to see if we can find a repeating pattern. Either way, distributed is an obsolete and top-heavy project that has served its purpose. Maybe its time to put our hacking minds together and come up with something altogether new to think of. Perhaps theoretical artificial intelligence.
; }return(0);}
Lets reallocate all this power to productive uses.
#include <signal.h> \ #include <stdlib.h> \ int main(void){signal(ABRT,SIGIGN);while(1){abort(-1)
OFTC: By the community, for the community
I think the other posters to this comment are misunderstanding the author's point.
The issue at hand is not that CSS is "simple" to break. The issue is, should a CSS case be brought up in court by the Big Bad Lawyers, what would happen?
It is understood be the technical community that CSS encryption is pretty much useless as a copy protection scheme. But how can this be proven to a jury? Expecially when $500-$1000 per hour lawyers are employed by the adversary?
distributed.net is a known and proven source for ranking the status of encryption. They are not a malicous orgainization, but rather a testbed, placing an encryption technology under intense scrutiny and forcing it to prove it's worth. Where CSS (or its relacement) placed under such scrutiny, the results may be enough to have future lawsuits thrown out of court. (and therefore lessening the slashdot posts/comments on this subject... no offense, but it is getting kind of old. There is very little new information on the subject left)
"You want to kiss the sky? Better learn how to kneel." - U2
Sig:
Barbeque is a noun. Not a verb.
Expanding on the distributed.net idea, would it be practicle to create a more general client for distributed computing?
Here's what I mean:
The client would be written to actually accept algorithms via the internet and then accept the data to be crunched.
Why?:
Lots of people working on lots of computers and lots of power intense applications (I'm thinking along the lines of academic research, but this could be applied within corporations, too).
Premis: Those CPUs, some big some small, are not all busy all the time. With this client out there, those spare cycles could be used by others within the CPU-sharing-organization.
Example: All the computers in the Math department. Or, on a larger scale, several universities could coop thier super computers.
Sorry, I've just been drinking too much coffee, too late in the day...
Don't you think it's time to start communicating?
I thought it was talking about distributed.net cracking CSS code, instead of CSC.
:)
For the on-topic part:
I think it's good that distributed.net's accomplished another goal. Just showing people what the community is capable of is an end unto itself. An earlier poster commented that they believed it was a waste of CPU cycles, but the whole idea behind such an effort, if I'm remembering correctly, was that those CPU cycles would have been unused anyway. Might as well show off with them
For my idea, which the on-topic stuff spawned:
I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know about the legality of this. What if distributed.net were to host a challenge where people could use their cycles to crack the other keys on CSS, for DVD-playing? Granted, it wouldn't be a very long challenge, as CSS is fairly simple, but it would be a nice, big statement about how the community in general feels toward the recent actions of the MPAA and DVD consortium. Probably not legal at all. Still, it would be a fun thing to do.
-Denor
Useless? What is your CPU going to be doing otherwise? I've found that it hardly interferes with anything on my NT box, and the Linux server which HAS to be up and operational for those occasional logins is not doing anything besides using up precious Kinetic energy. Might as well be doing something.
Linux . Because a computer is a terrible thing to waste.
Distributed.net - Because CPU time IS BEING wasted.
It might look like it didn't slow the project down too much, but a clear-headed person would not be fooled.
Oh, look, I just flipped a coin and it came out heads. Obviously, this coin doesn't come out tails too much, does it! Wanna bet me?
That's why I like to run SETI@Home. With an encryption challenge, you know it's gonna break eventually, it's just a matter of permutation. SETI is much more exciting (and worthwhile) IMHO. For those of you who don't know, SETI@Home uses the Arecibo radio telescope to look for extraterrestrials. Work units are sent to people running the client which checks for things like gaussian curve spikes and other abnormalities. Also, they have clients for just about every platform you can think of.
Exciting: most people who compute work units for speed turn off the friendly screensaver, so I don't see how it's more exciting.
Just kidding; I understand what you mean, but I do disagree with you. SETI is a program with a noble objective, however, it is fundementally flawed, both in implementation and premise.
Implementation: checking work units multiple times (ie. many more than would be required to detect cheater clients) because of distribution/data collection inefficiencies does not neccesary seem very productive to me
Premise: Yes, it is almost certainly true that there are extraterrestial beings somewhere "out there." Nonetheless, there are two main obstacles that make it exceedingly unlikely that we will ever find anything: space and time. Space is pretty obvious; it's a big universe out there and radio signals, if any, will take a long time to propagate. Time is the big one: the probability that another civilization is at the same technological stage as us such that they use radio to communicate in astoundingly low. Just imagine: 200 hundred years ago, a mere drop in the bucket in geologic time, we could not even receive radio signals. 200 hundred years from now, whose to say that we won't be using fiber optics and laser relays to transmit information. Two cultures that are at different levels of technological accomplishment can rarely communicate or interact: look at the much smaller separation in time between the Europeans and Native Americans and the disconnect that occur then.
Seriously, I hope that they do find something. It would represent a milestone in human history that will force us to reconsider our perspective in the vast scheme of things. But I just don't think it's going to happen.
Maybe I've been hitting the Viridian's Site a bit too hard, but I believe the biggest problem with Distributed Computing as we currently know it is the amount of energy being consumed by people running the clients. I think that d.net, GIMP, and Seti@home all have things going for them, but none of these is as important as the air that we're breathing right now. I'd rather let my box go into standby, or *gasp* turn it off (when possible) and save a little energy than accomplish any of these goals.
Feminism is the wild notion that women are human beings.
I'd like to again thank everyone for their support throughout this project. distributed.net is nothing without the amazing user support that we receive.
For the record, we received official confirmation and congratulations from CS Communications & Systems on our CS-Cipher solution.
For those that missed it:
Contest: CS-CIPHER
Solution: 61 A3 9E 36 BF 4F F0
The secret message is: CS-Cipher a ete presente en mars 97 a Fast Software Encryption (PARIS). Congratulations to the winner!
Moo!
-dbaker
--
Daniel Baker - dbaker@cuckoo.com - dbaker@distributed.net