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Salon on JWZ/Emacs/Mozilla/AOL and Nightclubs
genehckr writes "Salon has an article about how JWZ has been spending his time since leaving Netscape/AOL/Mozilla -- he's working on buying a nightclub in San Francisco. The article also delves into JWZ's personality, and some of the history behind the JWZ/RMS Lucid Emacs/emacs split -- an interesting read. " Ok, I put it under the Mozilla icon because I don't have a 'San Francisco Nightclub Icon'. Interesting article covering stuff that we don't usually see around here.
Given jwz's goth/industrial/angstcore leanings musicwise, a bat may be a good icon.
On the other hand, I'd love to know if the dance floor is Java 2 compatiable and supports XML.
Personally, I think we might start to see more of this - people just getting fundamentally fed up and choosing whole new careers. I don't know any of the reasons JWZ has made the switch, beyond those reasons he's chosen to give, but I do know that if I had the resources, I'd get out of the politics, back-stabbing and paranoia that makes up so many companies.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
The appearance of Java in Slashdot banners is *not* a welcome new feature! Not only does it add to the page load times, but it kills off a large proportion of the Netscapes currently in use on Linux.
I have three different versions of Netscape running on RedHat 5.2, 6.0, and 6.1, and they *all* die during Java loads. (Yes, I *have* fixed the RH font path omission.)
I know the problem is Netscape's and not Slashdot's, but since Netscape is the browser most used on Linux, the end effect worldwide of this introduction of Java really sucks for Slashdot fans.
"The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
I don't know what would be a bigger draw to me, going to an actively open nerd night club, or going to an actively open nerd night club owned by jwz...
If only it were in Chicago...
-I just work here... how am I supposed to know?
I had half expected that he might do something like buying Harlequin, and "open sourcing" Liquid Common Lisp. (Which would have been rather interesting...) Or perhaps seeking to build a Lisp Machine environment to run atop Linux. Or perhaps something more quixotic like building such atop FreeBSD.
It's very interesting that he has instead proceeded to do "political system" hacking. I expect he'll get back to the computer variety at some point.
After all, he appears to be a significant participant here; any time major discussions of Motif or Mozilla come up, he's quite visible in the discussions!
I'm no "clubber," and I'm not entirely convinced he's after something that's unambiguously a good thing, but it's sort of nice to see some action oriented to a local community taking place.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
The article spent a couple of paragraphs on generalities. Does there exist a good, non-judgmental (I should be so lucky) article about what really happened, focussing on the operational differences between emacs & Xemacs? If so, could some kind person post a pointer?
TIA
I refuse to believe corporations are people until Texas executes one. -- desert rain on http://www.dailykos.com/user/
We have the same issue with afterhours on south beach as they do in san francisco. Maybe jwz can come out here and help us after he's done out there :)
I always thought JZW could make it as a Yanni impersonator. It seems that he is not involved with any big hacking project these days. Too bad, the free software community needs him.
Perhaps it's the malleability of code that makes some programmers, especially free software programmers, so optimistic that they can fix things, that problems are solvable, that a solution is always waiting to be found. Software can be fixed. Programmers live in a world where reality can be shaped according to their will -- all they have to do is write another line of code.
A fairly interesting insite into why hackers are so powerful. Now only do they think they can fix things... in many instances they actually do. All the hub-bub about the freedom on information, ie the state of "the net" is all about hackers knowing they can change things. Shows like Triumph of the Nerds attempts to document this phenomenon. It also seems to celebrate the power and influence of nerddom as if nerds have something to prove.
Before you leave, you will make an entry in Everything.
That will definitely be something to check out in San Fran when they transfer ownership and do whatever it is they're going to do to it. I picture an exploratorium on lsd with a bar.
How have other clubs integrated technology into the environment to make it fun for hacker/tech types?
What? There isn't a jwz icon?
Trust me, you don't want him to... been there...
Remember 3 weeks ago when you were soundly trounced on this same topic? Do you want that to happen again?
In case you do, here's the first taste: What conceivable claim would Stallman have on jwz's nightclub. Even as a joke this makes no sense.
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Talk about the only thing constant is change...
This is really so 60s. Suddenly the young, rising rebels discover the changes they're fighting for are so easily done within the system. The ability to fight the establishment, USING the establishment becomes an accepted method and then suddenly they wake up and discover...
My god, I've turned into my parents!
What about the spinning-compass easter egg Netscape showed when pointed at jwz's page? Should be nicely obscure.
I'm using M13 as my main browser now. In a week of(fairly constant) use I've only noticed the following problems:
/. page had the same problem under Netscape and that is fixed in Mozilla.
-Multiple windows don't work independently after about 10 minutes. Refreshing in one window makes both windows unusable.
-Copy and paste (internally OR externally) is totally non-functional.
-No https
-For some reason I couldn't load www.caldera.com
-Occasionally some pages will have large blacked-out areas. Scrolling usually fixes this. However, I also note that the MetaMod
-Minor editing nitpicks (like why can't I put in double spaces?)
Other than these relatively minor issues, M13 is awesome. Very quick rendering (I much prefer the "render as you receive" algorigthm. I like it so much I entered a reminder on my Palm to download M14 as soon as it hits the wire (2/18).
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I was trounced? How? And on what grounds? I love when GNLUSERS like you claim victory when it is not there. Kinda like the cult leader claiming Linux when it is not his.
Please, stop believing your own hype. You are not that bright. I have a strange feeling you listen to those Tony Robbins motivational tapes. Hmmmm. Sad really.
Kinda OT, but...
I've used (and I still have to use) Lisp in college courses. Most of my peers feel that, as a language, it's a waste of time. I always thought that if I'm going to do text-based programming in Unix, it might as well be with something interesting and natural, like Lisp is in ways. C++ for text based programming is an arduous chore, although it makes your life easier in many ways. On the opposite end, I've used Prolog and although I did get the hang of it eventually, I thought learning it was like trying to dry my hair on a frying pan...
Sadly, I've yet to see anything really practical done with Lisp. I'm not saying that things HAVEN'T been done or CAN'T... they just haven't been called to my attention yet. Specifically, I know that Lisp ain't the fastest car in the garage when it comes to compiled speed, but I think that someone should really try to fancy it up and release a professional IDE/compiler/libraries set that is capable of making real-world appications. (not that you COULDN'T do that kind of stuff already if you really wanted to, but somehow I assume that no one is making any Winamp plugins or network games with it)
It is kind of ludicrous to think of such an idea... anything called "Visual Lisp" might cause some crying and suicidal thoughts. But I would be SOOO curious to see what might come out of some project like that. After all, the way that information flows within Lisp might make certain applications much easier to code. Also, one of the very nice things about Lisp IMHO is that if you're a decent programmer, you'll save massive amounts of debugging time because generally you won't have to worry about broken functions down the line... I find it easier to debug Lisp functions out of the gate as opposed to C++. Of course, this comes at the expense of coding time, but I think the end tradeoff is worth it. (I hate debugging more than coding, so again this is IMHO) Finally, Lisp is somewhat ideal for AI and logic type stuff, so coding those type of elements into programs would probably be quicker and more natural.
Of course, making it a bloated language might not have superb results. Specifically, just throwing something like MFC on top wouldn't improve the programming experience. Still, though, I'm very curious, and if anyone knows a direction in which to point me, I'll take a look. Otherwise, this is DIY country, but it might take a year or two before I would be able to accomplish anything like that. Right now my best talent on a computer is getting record times in Minesweeper...
....that some of us geeks DO have lives!
glad you see it my way.
The article was good readage. Nothing that I didn't already know from visiting jwz home page though.
:)
BUT, anyone else notice the little blurb about a PBS documentary "Code Rush"? Seems like it's going to air March 30th according to the link.
"The specific time period captured on film covers a crucial moment in the history of the "free-software movement" -- that frantic couple of months during which Netscape programmers scrambled to clean up the hitherto proprietary source code to the Navigator Web browser so that it could be released as publicly accessible open-source software."
Hmmm....sounds pretty interesting. I wonder who's going to portray jwz
> Personally, I think we might start to see more of this - people just
> getting fundamentally fed up and choosing whole new careers.
I'm doing that. It's not the computer field that I'm fed up with, it's corporations in general. They really really don't mesh with the way my mind goes. And, I've noticed, ever since I started programming professionally, I stopped programming as a hobby - it wasn't fun anymore. Very depressing.
So, in order to get my Happiness rating back up, I'm going back to school and switching to the psychology field. Freaky, huh?
Eric
it was a joke. Some people have no sense of humor, and take themselves WAY too seriously.
Kinda like cult memebers.
Just think, a place where we can congregate and apply the IRL /. effect on brick-and-mortar businesses. 50 people in line at the quik-e-mart to buy gum!
CmdrTaco, this is your DESTINY!!!!!
e to the i pi equals negative one
[WARNING: THIS SLASHDOT POST WENT UP WITH LUDICROUSLY BAD TIMING FOR ME. THIS IS AN EXTREMELY BITTER RANT. I WILL REGRET POSTING THIS LATER. YA KNOW WHAT? FUCK IT AND ANYONE WHO DOESN'T LIKE IT.]
Dear Willie:
Damnit! Are you guys ever going to let guys like me have a life?
I'm tired of fighting, Mr. Mayor. I grew up in The City. I sat there at age 14, imagining that when 16 rolled around, gee, I'd finally have to stop asking for rides and start <i>going places</i>. But, whoops, 16 wasn't enough, everything was 18 and over. Fine. I waited. 18 rolled around...whoops again! Can't drink, can't party! Better wait 'til 21. Now I'm 21 and live in Santa Clara, and what do I hear but half the clubs in San Francisco are under attack.
What the hell? Do you own Prozac futures or something? Have you ever stopped for a moment and considered exactly happens when the event economy can support fewer and fewer individuals?
No, Willie, I bet you haven't. I've heard about your parties--you've thrown kinkfests that put a good chunk of the Castro parties to shame, if only because of the straight laced people you've dragged to them--and I've gotta say, I respect your cojones. But guess what--you go ahead and harass and subject and isolate as many people as possible...
And you eliminate me, and people like me.
Take a college town, or take a city spiting its culture to win some votes, and start cracking down. People like me, who used to be more fodder for the party, who might actually turn out to be decently cool, become risk, pure and simple.
Don't invite the geeks. They'll call attention. Watch who you bring; too many and we'll get busted. Leave them to their toys; screw 'em if they want to look back at their youth without regret.
And School Administrators wonder aloud where all these cliques are coming from, and why nobody has any school spirit anymore, and how it is that so many students just don't know eachother.
Man cannot live on bread alone, and geeks cannot survive on mere technology. There's something called a well balanced life, and the systematic limitation of just how many people can enjoy theirs must end.
If residents are complaining, then the failure is the City's and the Zoning Commissions, not people like me who don't Know Everyone like you do. I want to have fun, Mr. Mayor. Yes, I admit it. I want to look back at a month and say, wow, I met some great people. I let myself go. I stopped being stressed about...everything.
I don't want drugs. I don't want pot. And I certainly don't want more f*cking technology. Give me loud music, new people, and an edge of unpredicatability without the constant and truly ridiculous fear and loathing of the police and the government and the city councils and the Self Appointed Fun Police and I'll be happy!
I'll live in your city!
I'll come home!
You ruin my hometown as I just turn 21, and while your Prozac futures might skyrocket, I ain't ever going home, save maybe to campaign against your ass.
Capiche?
Yours Truly,
Dan Kaminsky
DoxPara Research
http://www.doxpara.com
Get over it, man! Seek professional help if you must, but don't let Stallman ruin you're life. It's not worth it. You accuse him of being obsessive about the GNU thing, but you appear far more obsessed with him. Maybe you should think of staying off line for a while and maybe getting a new hobby to keep your mind him.
Here's a couple of links that may help you on your way to recovery:
http://ocd.mentalhelp.net/
http://www.ocfoundation.org/ocf1030a.htm
-- Don't Tase me, bro!
Though this is obviously a troll, I'll respond: DNA is not a "gay" club currently. It is a venue for concerts (apparently not a much as it used to be) and dance music. It seems to me that the night I was there it was occupied by tourists. I can't be certain. 25 years ago it was a gay club known as "chaps" according to SFgate.
Lowmag.net
coming from someone named Col Klink.
Seig Heil, eh?
Arent you? I could swear there was a German computer publication called C'T.
"Reactionaries must be deprived of the right to voice their opinions; only the people have that right." - Mao
You probably think you are "blowing the mind" of a "straight", but actually you are not. I'm fully aware you are a troll who does not really believe the things you are saying. I'm also fully aware that if you were confronted in "the real world" you would turn out to be a spineless loser.
There are two methods for dealing with trolls.
1) Ignore them. This is usually the best route with trolls that make no sense, even superficially.
2) Give them enough rope to hang themselves with. This works when the claim has a superficial plausibility but actually makes no sense underneath. That's what I've been doing with you and it worked twice.
But it looks like you've finally caught on to that and have decided to short-circuit my process by reverted to normal, troll-like, nonsensical behavior. Go ahead, if that amuses you, but you will be losing a playmate when I switch back to strategy #1.
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Please turn to Tony Robbins tape #4 on having a sense of humor.
It is obvious that you really do not have any life or sense of humor.
Nice job there chief. Big talk from a geek with a keyboard.
...I wonder if he could get it open by June when the next JavaOne rolls around and 20,000+ geeks roll into town? Would they all attempt to show up at jwz's place simultaneously? Talk about a /. effect. ;)
www.HearMySoulSpeak.com
Dave Taylor (formerly of id, founder of crack.com, currently at Transmeta)'s crack.com game Abuse (now open-sourced, I believe) uses LISP as its scripting/scenario engine... That was *really* cool, but couldn't survive the onslaught of the first-person shooters and real time clickfe^H^H^H^H^H^H^H strategy games during 1995 or so...
Harlequin went into receivership late last year and has been bought out by a firm called Global Graphics, who wanted the Scriptworks Postscript RIP (which I used to work on). GG aren't really interested in selling programming languages, so IIRC that arm of the company has been sold off as a different firm, whose name I forget.
However, the really interesting story is Dylan. Harlequin put huge amounts of work into a high-quality Dylan implementation; it's one of the things that sunk the company. When GG took over, they decided that they'd have an impossible task selling the product either to end users or to a company - so they made a *gift* of the source to the developers. They've now set up a company, Functional Objects, to develop it further.
It seems they don't currently plan to open source their implementation; personally I think they're doomed unless they do...
--
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Yep - pretty annoying, and not a good way to start out an article that's obviously targeted towards the geek community.
Abuse had at least the game sequencing written in Lisp.
And a "bloated" Common Lisp implementation looks positively svelte when put beside either a Java or a C++ "IDE" environment.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
Condo builders donate money to mayor.
Mayor finds loophole in industrial zoning, condos get built, computer yuppies move in. </i>
Good point. Go south one block, and what do you see? Trendy warehouse-condos pop up left and right. I wouldn't want to live in SOMA or Tenderloin or even Market District west of 5th. Saw some naaasty hookers and too many p0rn0 shops over there. To the west of there, nearer 18th street, it's beautiful though. Very unusual city.
Lowmag.net
That would be fine if the club didn't have 25 years of prior art ;P
Lowmag.net
The sawmill WM and most of the configuration tools for it (and the dotfiles!) are written in rep, which is Yet Another LISP. Architecturally, sawmill is much like Emacs; whether this is a good or bad thing is left to the reader.
Don't miss this - according to the story there's an upcoming documentary on the the who inside Netscape Mozilla coding scene from '98....
PBS documentary
Dude, I wish you didn't post these AC. It's hillarious and if I where moderator your Karma would be through the roof! :o))
;o)
However, I don't know if it will work, because I'm even considering trolling now to get more of these out of ya.
Thankx for making the best out of otherwise anoying crap.
On the second page of the Salon article, it mentions that Lucid Emacs was a fork of the original Emacs written by Stallman. This is only partially true.
Lucid Emacs was a fork of GNU Emacs. But GNU Emacs was not the original Emacs. Stallman did however, obtain large amounts of code from the original Emacs. But this was done illegally.
The original author of Emacs was James Gosling. Yeah, Oak/Java, etc. He turned the code over to a software publisher called Unipress Software way back in the UUCP-only era (circa 1985). They sold distributions and full source distributions to tons of companies, gov orgs, and universities. They made flenty of feature enhancements, re-writes, etc. They paid Gosling a nice royalty for every sale.
At some point Stallman picked up one of the source distributions and made some modifications. They were good modifications, IMHO. Some of them were lame (e.g.- simply removing the Copyright tags). And then he started giving it away for free. This is the founder of the Free Software Foundation. I believe at some point he did in-fact completely re-write the code. But this was far more recent than you'd expect.
PS: What do you think GNU (as in GNU Emacs) stands for? GNU's Not Unix? Or GNU's Not Unipress?
I have very little respect for Jamie Zawinski. He seems to have a 'holier-than-thou' attitude about pretty much everything he touches. I'd guess that it was Zawinski's personality more than any technology or license issues that caused the Emacs split. Then his famous 'successful company' rant, which I read as 'anyone who joined Netscape after I did is a wannabe'.
But my biggest problem is the now-infamous rant he published upon leaving Netscape. He seemed determined to damage the company on his way out. I think he single-handedly did more to hurt public perception of Mozilla than any delay, any change of plans, any setbacks that the project itself ever had. Zawinski set the stage for the trade press to prematurely declare Mozilla a failure.
I truly hope that JWZ gets attacked by a rabid lizard. His personal vitriol is Mozilla's most significant liability, even though he's not involved anymore.
Tired of FB/Google censorship? Visit UNCENSORED!
I was at the hearing in support of Jamie. Have you actually emailed your rant to Mayor Willie Brown? If not, then please do. I'm sure my email address has been blocked by now given how many rants I've sent him. ;)
- tokengeekgrrl
Join the SFLNC.
Their agenda: Save what's left of San Francisco culture before yuppie dot-commers beat the life out of every remaining late night venue.
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I think jwz buying this club is one of the first of what I believe will be a lot of now rich geeks doing a lot of Big weird things with their money. There's only so many cars and houses you can buy before doing something Big becomes the only thing to do with all the money.
:)
Well, you could always save it but who wants to do that?
Now that I think about it, kimflournoy hits the nail on the head.
The straight crowd is generally more inhibited. We are lame.
Here's my personal take. If I'm wearing black leather pants and a ridiculously tight muscle shirt, I already look silly. I may as well go the whole nine yards and get my groove on.
Breeder boys, unite!
[james-brown-voice]Get up off at thang and dance 'till you fell better![/james-brown-voice]
I'm not what you'd call a club maven, but of all the SOMA clubs I've been to, DNA Lounge was one of the nicest. I was there for Club Slick one year, and was very favorably impressed.
Frankly, I have very limited sympathy for the new area residents. There was a reason their precious, quaint SF loft was (relatively) affordable. They knew there was an all-hours club nearby when they bought the place; why are they suddenly acting all surprised?
I've had the same dream as JWZ, except with me, it was a coffee shop up in Marin. I lacked the money and business acumen to realize it. So I'm pleased to see JWZ pursuing the same goal: Preserving what he thinks is important.
Schwab
Editor, A1-AAA AmeriCaptions
The real tragedy is that actual working artists, especially young ones, simply can't afford to live here. To sustain a true art scene, you need cheap rent paired with some sort of public space for artists to meet and work. End of story. And the growing wage inequities in the Bay Area make it impossible to find cheap rent in any area metropolitan enough to support an art community.
The situation is escalating, fueled by the "irrational exuberance" and the loss of public funding for the arts, there are no mechanisms for changing it. Artists in the US now work primarily in design and advertising: the invisible hand of the marketplace won't sustain fine arts.
He wanted to get the technology out the door _NOW_ before it was finished. He wanted to make a marketing "splash" NOW, just like all the marketing guys who want to get software out the door by the 1st of September so that they can market it for Christmas, and won't listen to the engineers when they say it ain't ready. He wanted to do this so he could vindicate his push to get mozilla freed.
While I greatly admire his (among others) courage in standing up and advocating releasing the source for Netscape, I think he didn't really understand what he was starting. It takes awhile for developers to get comfortable with a new source code base. And some developers want to wait for a "stable" code base before starting to send patches. And their are a million more reasons why it took a long time to get Mozilla out the door. But the point is, it is about to be released, and I'm sure that it will make a splash with its appearance. JWZ just gave up to soon. But in any case, I think he will be vindicated, even if he's gone.
Jeff
Now, if its J.Crew-wearin' SUV-wearin' marketdroids vs. gothpunkindustrogeeks, then yes sir, yes it is.
Another problem my straight (female) friends often complain about is that when they go to a straight club, guys are constantly feeling them up or being generally rude to them. A girl once professed to me that on one occasion she had had at least one hand placed on her ass for literally the entire night. I'm bi, but when I'm looking to meet women I go to gay clubs, because everywhere you look there are eligible women hanging around, just looking to dance and have a good time, not wanting to be pressured or hit on. And of course there's very little competition :). Meanwhile the "straight" clubs are just tons of guys hanging around togther drinking because all the girls have deserted them. Now thats irony for you...
-W.W.
"Well it should be obvious to even the most dim-witted individual who holds an advanced degree in hyperbolic topology...
The board of supervisor's on the other hand, they need to worry. They're coming up for re-election, and San Francisco has switched back to district elections, which is to say that neighborhoods in SF now choose their representation on the board much in the same way that States choose their representation in the US house & senate. It's expected that this will cause a shift in power from the downtown/big money crowd out into the neighborhoods, and sucking up to the housing developers isn't likely to play as well as it has in the past.
Ugh, what an ugly mozilla icon. We really need to get that changed.
shameless self promotion - http://kibbles.org
jwz, like most truly talented people, is not a team player. The reason rms and he disagreed so violently, I think, is because they're similar kinds. It wasn't his personality alone that caused the emacs split -- it was BOTH their personalities, and furthermore there was clearly a split in the user base too -- if there hadn't been, then lemacs/xemacs would not have been very popular. Yet everyone didn't go that route either.
As far as Mozilla goes, I think he got a bit too personally involved there -- personally involved in its success, not just its technical success but its worldly success.
Reading between the lines, I think Jamie was way past the time he should have left Netscape when the Mozilla thing came along. It was enough to keep him, but when Mozilla turned out to be, in many ways, still business as usual, it drove him nuts.
Whether he was right or wrong in what he said, he said what he truly thought and felt, IMHO.
I don't know about you, but if I was to go to a nightclub I'd rather the gender ratios didn't resemble those of slashdot.
I don't know about the rest of you, but even though times are good for unix gurus and even though I like my job and salary...
I'd like to retire as soon as possible and maintain my current lifestyle or better
I don't want to work 16 hour days 5 days a week when I have kids in highschool. I don't think I can.
People don't complain about the high salaries that sports figures make, so I think **GOOD** IT people are *STILL* seriously undervalued. (NOTE: underqualified lackeys are IMHO currently waay OVERPAID)
when I can afford to retire (which is the GOAL), I won't be working on computers anymore... I'll be doing what I choose to do.. I'll have an Aquarium shop that breeds endangered fish. I'll be racing cars at the local racetrack. I'll be diving in Palau.
Computers are nice, but at some point, I'm going to want my life back!
So, I've got lots of ideas for what I want to do with the club, but I'm always looking for more. And I could certainly use some help!
If you or your company have expertise in audio and/or video webcasting, dealing with ASCAP/BMI, micro-radio, installing networks and computer systems in public places, computer-controlled video mixing and light shows, or anything along those lines, then send me mail! I'm at the stage of the game where I've got a lot of ideas, but I'm still trying to work out which ones are practical, which ones I can afford, and which ones I should do first.
I want to blur the line between real-world and web communities: I want the physical space to be hooked in to the net in a way that hasn't been done before. Most nightclubs, even those that do webcasts, are still just a room, a bar, and a sound system. I want to go beyond that, and make something new.
If you're interested in helping out, or even if you just have suggestions, let me know! What would you like to see? What do you think would move the concept of ``nightclub'' to a new level?
Please don't think of this as an ``internet cafe'' kind of deal: in my experience internet cafes aren't even cafes, what they are is terminal rooms or photocopy stores that happen to sell espresso. What I'm building will definitely be a nightclub, with a lot of live music. But it will also be a web radio station, a web music zine, and a heavily wired physical space.
Help me build it! I think it's going to be a lot of fun...