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Linux Appliances
Has anyone else noticed the proliferation of little Linux appliances? The latest couple that have been submitted are the PIA (which runs on a Celeron and looks to be available for $300). The other is from Indrema which is still vapor, but with things like a wireless keyboard and an SVHS port, it looks like a cool game box. Rumored release for it is November with a sub $500 price tag. These guys are getting close to what the NetWinders wanted to be a year ago ... What else does the Linux appliance future hold?
Yes, I have a lot of anger towards the world to work out.
That show just how badly most Linux users need masturbatory aids.
Why do you think QNX, which is very POSIX and might as well be called a single user unix, would be better than the best POSIX compliant system like Linux?
Since my toaster is a few years old I figured my old copy of RedHat 5.2 would be about right for it.
Who knew CDs would melt that fast.
It's at www.sybian.com, it's about $600US. Hot grits are pretty messy, I think they recommend Astroglide.
This is a neat(er than most) Linux machine I built for a tweak under $300. (remember... thats HAND-BUILT, not production line). I cannot understand why manufacturers persist with the generic plastic box? CREAM PLASTIC SUCKS!. !! It was outdated in the 80's... (And when they do try something at least acceptably decent it's way expensive > $400). Check my creation out on: http://Oneironaut.tripod.com (incase u'r all wondering it's DESIGNED to sit (and survive) in the car or as a standalone hi-fi to play mp3's based on Chris's setup on http://cajun.current.nu/) It works GREAT as a desktop pc, internet, email, etc... My point is the (mass) industry could'nt be less interested to try exotic machines for bargain prices and still give them something the competition does'nt have. If they stick to a recipe of keeping it simple, functional, GIVING IT ELEGANT PRESENCE, integrating several PRACTICAL functions on a single device, they'll pull in a far greater market.
I was reading my Compusa(chain here in Ca.) Sunday insert today and they have something called a mailstation by Cidco. Its a "plug into the wall and get your eMail" device. Anyone know anything about it?
i.e anybody have a hack at it?
Release device? Damn complicated stuff! I just turn the stuff over when it gets rosy red over the fire-)
The thing about Linux is that it is everything you claim and LESS. I have one machine that is basically just an mail server. AKA a mail appliance. I'm tempted to build a small machine from spare parts for nothing but web surfing. It would only run netscape [and of course X and some sort desktop] but it would be just a step above an appliance. Plug it into the network and viola web appliance. You don't really need X for a smaller appliance. You could build a custom interface. So a company could ship everything from a small internet appliance to a POS system to a mainframe all running Linux at it's core. Maybe it's a dream or maybe IBM really is serious about Linux. That thin linux client IBM is showing on it's webpage looks nice. http://www.pc.ibm.com/ww/networkstation/lin.html They aren't cheap but you get a logo-) My point is that if you use Linux for your foundation you can build anything you want on top of it. That cuts costs and no matter what people believe that matters.
I bet the average machine thrown out in the trash today has more power then the first Unix machines. More memory and more diskspace. What you call an appliance today would have been a small mainframe when Unix was being developed.
This whole site has been biased for the last year or so... towards anything Andover or VA. News site? No way... more like a badly written commercial.
Plug and play is a totally solvable problem with an appliance - they run on custom hardware, so there *is* no driver problem. The linux on the box supports the hardware in the box. Simple.
The harder bit is that they have to be plug-and-play with their surroundings, ie no config files, intelligent booting behaviour, etc. We've been working on using linux in an embedded box which will ship in a few months, and our box does this - no brainer to install. You can't get a prompt out of it, it doesn't have a keyboard (and so on) but there's linux in there...
I like it, Linux everywhere, I want it to be like the IBM commercial where I can walk around and wear linux on my glasses :) I can dream
It is a an S-Video port! NO SUCH THING AS AN SVHS PORT Duh!
BECAUSE I SAID SO!!!! if you don't have unix like OS embedded in chas erk register, you die!!! you go to hell and you die!!!! i like the purple jello OH how are you today I am well thank you very much please don't coppy this spost. thanks, einstein.
On March 23, at 11:07 PM, Cmdr Taco posted the following news article on the popular website Slashdot.org:
I would congratulate Slashdot for posting this article as I was not previously aware of this information before this article was posted and now I am aware of it due to reading this article, which contained the information that I am now aware of. It is important to learn something new every day -- as the old saying goes, "You learn something new every day!"
Thank you for reading my first Slashdot post. Please feel free to give me feedback by responding to this post.
Firstly - you hit the nail on the head here - Linux is an excellent marketeer's tickbox. I hate doing this as much as the next guy, but saying "we use FreeBSD" will draw nothing but blanks. We will then be told - by the experts, see - that we should use that Linux program thingie. You know - the one that Red Hat makes.
Secondly - the license. Some of what I am doing involves patching the kernel in Innovative, Revolutionary Ways (tm)(c)(r). If I patch to the BSD tree, I have a real concern that my code will be lifted by some evil nasty giant corporation in entirety, then swiftly Embraced and Extended. And, because this large corporation is much larger and more well-established than I, they will get sales. I will not. In short, I will have literally paid for the code that kills me. No thank you.
The GPL protects me in that if someone else tries to "expand" on my stuff - no worries. I can use their changes. It levels the field. Even the giants need to stoop to sup at the Linux table.
The BSDs are cool for what they do. Keeps us Linux bigots on our toes. But you will find that if you intend to patch to an authoritative tree, companies will be reluctant to patch to anything less protective of their work than the GPL.
Now private, in-house ... that's another matter entirely ...
Any competant system administrator can configure Solaris in no time. The OS IS practically plug and play with regard to the peripherals assuming you're using a version of the OS that is new enough to have built in support for the cards you are using. Sun boxes are not MEANT to be installed and run by the average Joe Luser. They are scientific and engineering workstations meant to be used by clued people.. or at least people who have a good systems support staff skilled in administering Solaris. It's NOT for your average home user wanting to surf the net.
Or a sock, or whatever you usually use.
Come on, think for yourself here.
Which is why it makes no sense for hardware makers to use it. Why help Microsoft make money? Better to keep it all for yourself. You hit the reason for why Linux will continue to gain support squarely on the head. Good work.
You ave violated Yu Suzuki's Golden Rule by including the Devil's Letter (also known as 'H') in your post. Please refrain from using tis vile letter in future posts and repent so tat Yu Suzuki may save your sinful soul. For your convenience, a corrected version of your post appears below.
Or merely cheap?
My guess is te Linux == Big Bucks approach
keep up the good work
Hi mom!!!
I just came in your mom's ass.....
LMAO!
Oh man thats funny.
My only question is: can you use hot grits as a lubricant on your product, or will that damage the surface?
but why would you need a unix like OS for something imbedded? does it really need all the unix features and services? I think QNX would be a better choice.
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
really!
Moo...FUCKAZ
yup
Moderate this down to (Score:-1,Troll)
Trollz rool.
with IE
Moderate this down to (Score:-1,Troll)
Trollz rool.
hehe
Moderate this down to (Score:-1,Troll)
Trollz rool.
moderate this down-it does not deserve to have a score of two
Moderate this down to (Score:-1,Troll)
Trollz rool.
without prejudice
I'm the moderator who said this was a Troll. I wish /. gave moderators some time to defend themsleves, so here goes..
The post moderated was utter trash. As pointed out in a follow up to it, the merits of the post were total crap. BSD is just as seperated as Linux in terms of Kernel and Userspace. The points on the open development model were trash. I could submit a patch to Linus and he can reject it just as quickly as any BSD kernel maintainer could.
As for the forking issue, I don't see how it's a bad thing. The code can still be reused and remerged. The big forks of BSD out there (Open, Free and Net) all exist to fill a niche, just like the specialized Linux versions that are showing up (the ones for Clustering, Real Time, etc.)
Anyway, I hope my justification sticks, and I think that the moderators that made this trash 'informative' need to be shot. The BSDL is just as Open Source as the GPL. BSD will not die any more then Linux will.
And one more thing, will people STOP begging for karma by saying 'I know I'll get modded down for this'. It's sick.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the whole problem with Linux being difficult to setup and not truly plug and play due to unpredictable hardware and lack of drivers? Isn't that why Macintosh and Sun computers work right out of the box, why Windows resorts to gratuitous use of `wizzards' and why you need a college degree to setup Linux or BSD correctly?
.02 Gil
With an `appliance' type device where the company is selling the hardware with pre-installed software, shouldn't it be an absolute no-brainer to setup and use, assuming the company has done their job correctly and finished all of the difficult setup ahead of time?
just my
One chip. CPU. Memory. Flashdisk. Ethernet. Video. Keyboard. Mouse. Serial ports. Just add power and connectors. When will it happen?
A couple times a year this super computer show thing comes to town. You can pick up simple computers like this for around $300, but with floppy, cdrom, keyboard, etc. Aside from the odd case, does this thing have any real benefits over a standard small tower PC?
Don't expect these devices to be much like what you have on your desktop. No command line and no X windows. More likely, they will their own custom user interface, probably with a touch screen or something similar. The only part of the systems that will be Linux will be kernel, and perhaps a few utilities hidden well away from the user. Remember, for appliances, manufacturers want to target the software to fit the intended use of the hardware.
--
For every post, there is an equal and opposite re-post.
Huh? It DOES run a linux distro - that was
the original hack. Someone found an even
simpler way to get netbsd onto it too!
Now they claim they've made it un-hackable -
time will tell.
Have you compiled your kernel today??
Sure I could throw together an AMD K6-450, 128MB, 4.5B, 10/100BT machine with a 17" monitor a for about the same price +/- the shipping but that assumes that my time is worth $0.00. For the folks at home to get connected it sure sounds like enough. Of then I'd have to add some basic compatible desktop office type software, an IM of some kind that could get to AOL, some printer drivers, a modem so 6=1, half dozen=the other. If this netpliance works for what it works for it's great if you compare it to Rebel or Cobalt, etc. just on cost alone (for personal use low end web connections only.)
Speaking of which, i need to go check on my toast... i think the PalmPilot i now use to control my toaster has crashed again. ;-)
It's the ability to make any changes the develuper sees fit with out letting anyone know anything is being develuped at all.
Yes Linuxes popularity plays a roll but not in the marketting. It's all those programs that a develuper can addapt to the appliance.
Cut down on develupment time making minimal changes to the source such as rewriting the vertual console to run on a specalised chipset rewrite the sound drivers to use a costume sound chip rewrite the video4Linux drivers to use a specallised video sample chipset.
All the while making minnor changes in existing applications to run on the system.
Add to that an existing romdrive allready in the kernel and an operating system thats not to fussy about how it boots and you have the ideal operating system for appliances.
TiVo and i-Opener appeals to gadget freaks... there is a larg Linux geek gadget freak overlap to create the illusion of "Linux appeal"
However in my famaly the gadget freak is my sister and I am the Linux geek.
She wants TiVo.. I don't..
While the cost cutting advantages are a plus it's really a matter of getting from the drawing bord to the maket fast with out letting anyone outside know you are doing anything.
Beat the compeditor to the market while doing your best to make sure there are no compeditors...
I don't actually exist.
YOu can create your own using the PCChips Book PC . I'm not sure if Linux has all of the drivers you need and I'm aware of PCChips quality problems but I really like the book PC features. BTW: I put a ebay link to the article because PCChips site is so slow. I'm not the person selling this item.
Have you checked out Zoid.com yet? Zoid.com
Disposable income? HA! That would be nice...
We have a WAN with remote sites that require us to fly in. (no road access). Linux allows us to create a small distribution on a flash drive and run it on a ram disk. We are not programmers, shell scripts maybe but that is it. Now we build these small direcpc routers, ship them on site and they work. We never hear again from the site or the client. Certainly more versatile for us non-programmers.
I'm afraid not.
Linux - Because Mommy taught me to Share.
Can't do that in Debian -- it makes you enter the root password when runlevel 1 starts up. Kind of annoying if you screwed up your passwd file, I can tell you from experience.
I'ts a big shame that the iOpener doesn't run a linux distro, otherwise there wouldn't be as much of a desire to hack it. I live down under, and can't get an iOpener :-( , otherwise I'd have 10 running as terminals, and print servers.
-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-
Laptop006
laptop006@netexecutive.com
Vic, Australia
/* FUCK - The F-word is here so that you can grep for it */
Ohmigod, you mean to say that a large corporation with billions of dollars and over two decades of product releases behind them has more credibility than some small unknown company that has never released a product? Amazing!
so, just boot onto a floppy (will these things let you boot onto a floppy? they must if you can install RH I guess) and mount the hard drive and change the password by hand *shrug* doesn't seem like that much of a big deal...
these machines are not for linux users...i dont see the market potential for these.... i booted it..i couldnt even access root... uh HELLO?!?! then i tried to an install of Red Hat 6.1 no luck there.. something else seems fishy because i couldnt get it to read another drive that already had RH on it... i mean it the BIOS couldnt even see the thing?!!?!? anyway i would stay away from them.... save up for a REAL computer... i wanted to do some gateway and NFS type stuff on it... for home use... which is really why you would use Linux anyway.. and couldnt .. you get no apache or anything fun ;) it's just like a shitty version of Windows 98... heh... if you were going to buy a cheap machine to do office software.. dont buy a PIA.. waste o time period.... again i dont see the market potential for these boxes .. since it doesnt really exploit the potential of linux... it might as well run on well Windows... hell get an Imac ... im sending it back on Monday
Are there any other machines similar to a Cobalt RaQ or Qube that can be rigged to serve? These net appliances seem to accommodate surfers and such but what about really cheap internet servers?
Well let's just say I'd rather have my toilet kernel panic
Don't even get me started on the 'core dump' jokes...
-- Dr. Eldarion --
I can't wait unitl linux has toast. Additionally, who made this tab key so sensitive in slashdot?
From a web hosts' standpoint, it could have been a dream come true. A perfect solution for building an inexpensive server farm to allow clients to each have their own dedicated server. Corel could have been chewing Cobalt's market to shreds (it truly amazes me that Cobalt stays in business) because they did get it right. Yet the price held it back, and commodity PC hardware is still king in the dedicated server market because it's still cheaper.
Close, Corel... pretty close.
I/O Error G-17: Aborting Installation
Because Linux is divided into a kernel and discrete components, such as the C library, bash, command line utilities, etc., which can be easily separated and replaced with something else.
With *BSD, the OS distribution gives strong incentive to use what is provided in /usr/src and /usr/ports, to the exclusion of software not provided. Further, it's more difficult to do a binary-only installation. You're always going to have source code for something hanging around, and probably not something you intended to keep, and certainly not tarred and gzipped!
To build an embedded Linux operating system, all you need to do is build a Linux kernel, build a libc (e.g. glibc2 or newlib, and build whatever other tools you need, then combine them into a nice binary distribution. Even without a package mangler.
I can't even begin to conceive of how one would build such a thing with *BSD without seriously disturbing the OS installation hosting the build process. I'm sure it could be done, but if it were that easy, someone would have done it by now.
Further, Linux is open source and open development. Anybody can participate. BSD is far less open source, and far less open development. Ever tried to submit a patch to a *BSD kernel? Ha, good luck. There should be no question as to why the BSD kernel keeps forking.
As for Linux vs. BSD, BSD advocates will say that it is technically superior in many areas, and be correct. However, Linux is far superior in at least one aspect: the manner in which it is developed. I expect BSD to be left in the dust in all technical areas that matter within a very short time, unless they can get their act together.
Foo. There went all my karma.
---
How am I supposed to fit a pithy, relevant quote into 120 characters?
hmmm...great idea...but what happens when the core dumps?
what is this?
What's the problem with more little Linux toys. More little Linux toys means more things we geeks can play with on Airline flights, impress fellow geeks with, and repel chicks with.
is that a euphimism? :)
and then there are the options split --tree and...
hehehe, golly I wish I could have moderated this one, it's funny... :)
Perhaps we'll soon see a story about a new microwave running Linux...complete with customized alarm settings... :)
If I were bringing out a new product I would much rather use a free item (linux) instead of paying (Microsoft). Linux is really the only logical choice for these new products.
Everyone's quick to call the Indrema vaporware but the X-box, oh it's very real. With it's "600mhz x86 processor" of no description. I suppose it just shows the influence MS has, even on "non-believers".
Trolls, it must be cool to be that bored.
I think it has a lot to do with control. What brands of bread do you use? Call it paranoia but it's a perfectly normal reaction to everyone being out to get you :D.
Trolls, it must be cool to be that bored.
The PIA just looks like a standard cheap computer. something like the iOpener with a built in screen and being nice and compact would be better. the PIA doesn't even include a moniter
"[i]s out already" apparently does not mean "I can go buy one." Unless I'm missing something, I can't put my hands on one right now unless I want to buy 10,000 of them.
I'm also extremely interested in how they plan to handle the composite/s-video outputs and DVD decoding under Linux...
I'd buy a few of the boxes right now if they were available at a reasonable price. (I just bought two PIAs but this is what I really want.)
Why is it always toasters? I mean, what's the obsession people have with computers and toasters? I remember during the y2k fiasco, people jokingly asking if their toasters were y2k compatible. Now, talking about Linux on the toaster. Is it like, the ultimate hidden goal of humanity, to get a computer onto a toaster? Idunno, just mindless ramblings I guess.
Yes, but Linux has the advantage of being somewhat more efficient for similar uses. Like the old problem with WinNT based servers - who needs a complex gui on a file server? Windoes, in any incarnation, has a whole bunch of extra crap that will waste resources, therefore requiring a more powerful, and expensive, system. Unfortunately, Windoes also has the raw market brute force required to push their products onto large businesses anyways, who will in turn produce the more widespread products. So, once again, as always, it'll be the smaller businesses with a few smart sympathizers and highter efficiency fighting the megalopoly with its advertising muscle and extensive rescources.
>COMMADORE
Did you mean Commodore, as in the computer ( =D for those that remember )?
I don't remember any of the Commodore series (the PET, the VIC, or the C64/128) ever coming with any kind of taco promotion. When did you get such a machine? I would be interested to know...
Or, if you mean "taco biased", would you point out to me exactly where a taco biases the circuitry? That would be one of the most ingenious hacks I've ever seen.
Perhaps the taco came with their typwriters, or other business products (like filing cabinets, mouse pads, or the dreaded Commodore PC). Whichever it is, PLEASE send us a picture.
>more like a badly written commercial.
Now I _KNOW_ you are talking about Commodore Computers...
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
All of these things look absolutely marvelous. When it comes down to the single or limited use market for computers (gaming boxes, mp3 players, toasters...) these things seem to fit the bill quite nicely.
;-)
The only question I ask is, how will the ease of use factor fit in to everything? I mean, I am quite aware on how easy linux has become to configure/maintain, but can these ever be something my parents could use?
But hey, they have troubles using the microwave, so that probably wasn't a good example
-bugbbq
sample of Commercial Appliances based on FreeBSD -
Nokia Firewall/VPN Appliances
Internet Devices, Inc. - Products Overview
router/dialup/etc ... - FreeBSD on a Floppy...
PicoBSD
Commercial Embedded BSD from BSDI
Rafi
(to Email replace "NOSPAM" with "meron")
While these new Linux appliances say something about the scalability of Linux/other unices (Microsoft had to completely recreate Windows in order to have their crappy WinCE), these computers don't use Linux for what it's best at. It's not exactly rocket science to create an internet PC, with basic browsing functions and so forth. When trying to create an internet appliance, which is supposed to run very few functions very reliably, the flexibility of the OS (what Linux is great at) is not important. It's nice that some companies are helping to promote Linux by using it for appliances. However, I'd rather see more high end PCs coming pre-shipped with Linux or at least hardware supported by Linux from major OEMs.
"The universe seems neither benign nor hostile, merely indifferent." --Carl Sagan
I'm still not 100% convinced that this isn't just another marketing gimmick to get all of the comp.power.users to take a closer look...Play the hardcore user angle and you are guaranteed to get some interest from specific groups, or at least get your site /.'ed.
"Anybody who tells me I can't use a program because it's not open source, go suck on rms. I'm not interested." (LT 2004)
Let's get this straight right now, Linux is not "Unix Based" it is "Unix Compliant (or compatible)" If it was "Unix Based" it would not be opensource, Linus Torvalds wrote Linux from scratch to be Unix compatible, but all the source code was his (and some contributors from the net) nothing was taken as such from Unix.... Hope this helps you understand...
My company, Electro-Orgasm, Ltd. is planning on developing a female sexual stimulation device running the Linux operating system. (Note: our Web site is new, so if it doesn't resolve for you, it's because the DNS record hasn't propogated yet!) We believe that Linux has a big future in the personal stimulation market, and we took a long, hard, and penetrating look at Linux when it came time to evaluate operating platforms for our new dildo line.
//c, and then we hired Alan Cox to port Linux to our device. (The running joke around here is that we hired Alan Cox to port Linux to our Mechanical Cox.)
We ruled out Windows CE almost immediately. The last thing that we want to have is a situation where a customer is in the act of gratifying herself, and the damn vibrator crashes. The nightmare scenario that we came up with was this:
CUSTOMER: Ooooooh, yeah.
VIBRATOR: *WHIR* *WHIR* *WHIR*
CUSTOMER: OOOOH BABY, yeah, that's how I like it!
VIBRATOR: *WHIRRRRRRRR*
CUSTOMER: YES, YES, YES, I'M ALMOST THERE! GOD, YES! GOD, YES!
VIBRATOR: (makes the sound that the broken hyperdrive on the Millenium Falcon makes in The Empire Strikes Back; it slowly comes to a stop)
CUSTOMER: What the fuck?
Obviously, gentlemen, this is a situation that is to be avoided at all costs. We need a vibrator that has a System Availability Rating of 100%. That means that we turned to the Linux operating system. Linux has a well-deserved operation for stability. In our eyes, that makes Linux one hell of a dildo-riffic operating system! We equipped our vibrators with the same 65C02 processor that was used in the Apple
So far, things have been going great! You can look for the first Linux dildoes and vibrators to hit the market at the beginning of next fiscal year (October 1 or thereabouts.) And guys, don't despair! Linux Penis Pumps are just around the corner! Now your favorite open-source operating system can literally make your dick bigger!
Or dumping the log.
And don't forget to flush - but PLEASE don't use the sync!
Consciousness is not what it thinks it is
Thought exists only as an abstraction
Even with new Linux appliances, there is still going to be competition with Windows-based appliances. Take, for instance, the aforementioned Indrema box. Sure, this will be a great gaming box, but now it has to compete with the X-Box.
Linux on the PC platform will probably come along even more quickly than these new appliances, because it is much easier for someone to install Linux on their home PC, get support from all over the internet, and have a fully functioning Linux box than it is to develop the idea, hardware, and software for a Linux appliance. Plus, who knows what Microsoft is going to squeeze Windows onto. Without the help of something special, Linux is still going to take a backseat to Microsoft.
Hit the wrong key last time .. ;-)
Eagle wireless has a linux appliance like idrema,
but it is out already. See: www.eglw.com/english/new.html
It's pretty sleek. Even better, they will be integrating their wireless dsl with it that gives 11Mbs bandwidth!
See: http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/000211/tx_eagle_w_1.html
First post. Or do not first post. There is no "first post?"!
DNA is a Turing machine. You, however, being dynamic and emergent, are not.
And I'm the guy that meta-moderated your shitty moderation. What's the point of admitting that you moderated a comment if you post AC? Moderating something "troll" has nothing to do with the correctness of an arguement. Just because you don't agree with what someone has to say doesn't mean that you should be moderating down someone's opinion. I personally don't care if I get modded down cuz I gots plenty of karma to spare.
/. guys that came up with meta-moderation, my hat's off to you. This is one of several times that I've had the opportunity to keep a post up where it belongs regardless of opinion.
Which ever of you
Usless attempt to stay ontopic:
I think that Linux appliances are cool...
Both the TiVo and i-Opener seem to appeal to the slashdot crowd, which in the latter case, seems to be a bad sign for retailers.
/. readers before anyone else, even at their exorbitant prices. One of the great things about a capitalist system is that the early adopters subsidize the cost of the first few thousand units, and then the price comes down for the rest of us. The point is not that /. itself provides a market, but that it provides enough people with lots of disposable income to pay for the first units, and enables the manufacturer to make more at a reasonable price and take over the world.
I would have to object that it's a bad thing. VCR's, as an example, would likely have been adopted by the 80s equivalent of
Walt
Would it not let you boot to single user mode or "$telinit 1"?
Wow, It continues to suprise me on the versatility of linux. I would have thought that a UNIX base would be too bulky for appliance like things. In the past we have seen very specific hardware for appliances, now that hardware is becoming more general (Like a computer) and therefore the software is becoming more normal OS like. The reason I'm suprised is that they can do that and still make a profitable product, with all that overhead.
-- Moondog
And BSD is divided into a kernel (made of descrete components), and a user land made of descrete components like the C library, various shells, command line utilities, etc., which can be easily replaced with other things.
Try again. Neither Linux nor BSD has an advantage in this area.
Well, yes FreeBSD at least provides a strong incentave to use what is provided, namely making it dirt simple to use that stuff. It doesn't make it any harder to use non-ports stuff then any other Unixlike OS. You can even use the FreeBSD package manager (which allows dependnecy tracking, and easy uninstall) with non-ports software. Of corse if you did, it would be a tiny step to make it "ports software" (namely a few text files).
But I have installed a lot of non-ports stuff on my FreeBSD box (mostly snapshots of newer-the-ports stuff). I don't see how it diffres from installing a "too-new-to-be-RPMed" package in Red Hat.
I would say no advantage between Linux or BSD in this area.
Yes, unless you master the mystical "rm" command, you will still have the tarballs after you "make clean" (rm /usr/ports/distfiles/* works pretty good). I do wonder why there isn't a cron job to clean old files out of /usr/ports/distfiles, but this is definitly someting almost anyone ought to be able to do on their own if they wish.
I think the general thery under BSD would be to compile a kernel, libc, and the other tools you need, put them in in a binary distrubution (see the "mfsroot" tools). Even without the package manager, if it is offensave or useless to you.
For examples look at PicoBSD, the 1.44MB distribution, or maybe at the BSD in Juniper's M-series $100k+ routers, or at the BSD in Ascend's GRF routers. Or IBM's ePIPE, or Whissle's InterJet. Or, hell, the X-Terminals I built in 1992.
Again, Linux and BSD are pretty much the same in this regard.
I don't see any reason why BSD is less "open source". It is "less GPL", and arguments can be made about whether that is good or bad. But it fits ESR's Open source Definition. I've had patches accepted by various BSD groups. I've had them rejected as well, and a better fix was taken in their place. I havn't made any Linux patches, but I hope (and expect!) the result would be the same, my well-written patches would be accepted, and my flimsy half-baked hacks would be rejected, and maybe done better by someone else.
As for the forking, I remain unconvinced that Red Hat, SUSE, Debian, Slackware, Corel, Mandrake, Trustix, Storm and Yellow Dog are really signifigantly more similar then FreeBSD, OpenBSD, and NetBSD. Yes, all the linuxes are a kernel that Linux blessed, plus (sometimes) patches, and diffrent config options. But the userlands are all diffrent. Just like the BSD userlands. And as far as portability goes that is about as bad. Which is to say, a slightly-more-then-minor problem for source shipped programs, but not a major huge super big showstopper problem (in either BSD or Linux!)
Even if convinced, I'm not sure it would be a wholey good thing. If userland devirsity is a good thing, why is not a little kernel diversity? I really enjoy having multi-CPU support in FreeBSD. On the other hand, when I want a really secure system, I appreciate Theo's stance that the multi-CPU stuff hasn't been around long enough to be sure there are no security-related race conditions in it.
Here we have the first non-tie. BSD is better if you are intrested in deversity at all levels. Linux is better if you want basically the same kernel everwhere, but don't care about the userland being quite so similar.
Well, Linux does have Linus to keep everyone roughly on track. And that is a major big deal. BSD has nobody with the same leadership skills, who has stepped into the same sort of role.
On the other hand I wouldn't exactly say BSD has been left in the dust so far, and Linux has been around, what, nearly 10 years now?
Linux has gotten some really cool stuff recently (XFS, Riserfs being the most intresting), but BSD hasn't exactly been sitting still (look at the FFS soft update code, and the work-in-progress version of FFS that can do NetApp style snapshots, and live-filesystem-fscks). Linux seems to have gotten quite a leg up in fine-grained SMP, but with the recent Walnet Creak/FreeBSD/BSDI annoncment, I expect BSD can "catch up". After all Paul Borman allready did fine grain locking in Cray's TCP/IP stack, how hard could doing it twice be? :-)
My summary for this one would be "answer unclear, try agian next year". But I accept diffrent peple could judge this diffrently.
Why? It conforms to slashdot's bias. And was well written. I just happen to think it was also wrong. Now as to what happes to my karma...
P.S. you did forget to mention uLinux, the Linux that can run on non-MMU devices. I can see that being a big advantage in the embeded market. It's not something I would enjoy using, but still, it's a big deal if you can leave out a MMU and save $3 on a box that has a $50 price tag...
P.P.S. you'll note I didn't show anywhere I thought BSD was clearly better then Linux. That's because I'm not really sure there are any. There might be. There might not be. Or more to the point, each have their strengths, and weeknesses, and depending on what you need, one or the other might be better. You need to look close to decide, there is no easy answer (other then "not NT"...there, can I keep my karma? I bashed Microsoft)
Of course, WinCE (or whatever it's called now) has even fewer redeeming features. But for use as an appliance, I think the PalmOS has much more going for it than the combination of Linux+X+Gnu+KDE/GNOME (which would be the minimum of what you would need).
There is no trap so deadly as the trap you set for yourself
There is no trap so deadly as the trap you set for yourself
-Raymond Chandler, The Long Goodbye
Or merely cheap? If the latter, why not use Free/Net/OpenBSD?
It's all about infrastructure. Given that there are millions more Linux users than any of the others (or at least the last I knew; if someone else has figures it would be nice), it makes sense to use Linux. There are thousands of developers who are already familiar with writing code in and for Linux. Granted, you might not be able to port your favorite apps to an MP3 player, but more is definately better in this case.
Any Linux-based system gets free advertising in web sites frequented by people who would likely buy them (this article is proof of that).
It's kind of hard to argue against that
And companies know that having a Linux product, no matter how proprietary the hardware, API, etc might be, means a chance at a huge IPO.
Well, the fact that they use Linux means that it will be 'open', even if only in a small way. And that might very well be considered a benefit (to users and programmers) over BSD (which would not guarantee open source).
Maybe if the Yoppy has a successful launch things will change. I know it would change my impressions.
It certainly looks cool, but the there are enough palmtops out there already. It's hard to judge how well it will do with people who don't already use Linux.
~~~~~~~~~
auntfloyd
Imagine the interface:
#cut
#head
#hash
#kill
#man
#split
You can't handle the truth.
These devices need to be completely plug and play. Especially entertainment type devices. These need to be plugged in and turned on to work. Without that kind of ease of use, you can forget mainstream market. Make it as easy to setup as a receiver and you'll win customers.
Or merely cheap? If the latter, why not use Free/Net/OpenBSD?
My guess is the Linux == Big Bucks approach. Any Linux-based system gets free advertising in web sites frequented by people who would likely buy them (this article is proof of that). And companies know that having a Linux product, no matter how proprietary the hardware, API, etc might be, means a chance at a huge IPO.
Sorry guys. I'm not buying it. Have there been any consumer device running Linux that have sold well to non-Linux users? Both the TiVo and i-Opener seem to appeal to the slashdot crowd, which in the latter case, seems to be a bad sign for retailers. I just don't think that Slashdot readers can make up enough of a market to justify all this hype. Maybe if the Yoppy has a successful launch things will change. I know it would change my impressions.
Well let's just say I'd rather have my toilet kernel panic than have my car get a general protection fault.
I purchased a PIA a while back when they were still $350. It pretty much had exactly what I wanted for a living-room machine. It was bare bones, cheap, and had linux installed. Plus, the pic looked cool.
I'm currently happy with it - but wasn't when I opened the box...
The box is cube shaped - something not quite expected from the pics. This isn't a bad thing in my situation, because it sits in my living room, and most people think it is a subwoofer. So, that's a plus.
I pulled it out of the box and plugged it in. It uses Debian - Potato that they've modified a bit. The install instructions tell you how to plug everything in and log in - using username tux and a password which I don't remember. (Instructions are gone) Nowhere can the root password be found. For a newbie, this probably isn't a problem, but I personally didn't like the idea that 1) the company I purchased this machine from knew the only user name and password, and 2) I didn't have root to amend this situation.
But the box brought up a nice KDE desktop and it looked like anyone with a bit of computer experience (setting up dial-up networking under windows) could get on line relatively easily. I ordered mine with the ethernet card, and there were no instructions on how to hook the machine up to a local ethernet - so this option probably isn't for newbies.
What to do? Well, I put in a floppy and CD-ROM drive (both unneeded extras that aren't in the default shipping setup, and both of which I have extras laying around) and installed RH 6.1. This went fairly uneventful. The machine ran fine, but the 32mbs were just too little for me, so I put 64mb in there, and it's a nice living room desktop. Nothing fancy - just functional. MP3s, Internet, email.
For $300, it's not a bad setup - if you can put a little work behind it.
Linux - Because Mommy taught me to Share.