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More on Putting Linux On iPAQ
wishus writes: "The Compaq iPAQ is Compaq's PocketPC offering, with a 206 MHz Intel StrongARM. Microsoft beware, though, because there are now 2 different ways to put Linux on it - Compaq's own is at handhelds.org and the second, announced yesterday, is from Century Software. They are actually two very different means to the same end - Linux and X running on the iPAQ, complete with handwriting recognition." If only it had 802.11 wireless support, I'd be there.
Mozilla is a monster; as such, it requires at
least 16MB of RAM and an equally large binary,
just to start up.
When they shrink it down to a 1MB executable that
only needs 4MB of RAM to run, it will be suitable.
Darn, I can only express my deepest sympathies for all the people here who have created their own handheld devices but are stymied by the price. How can they go on? Oh, and just how many handheld devices have you developed, tealover? Lemme know when I can buy the Linux version, mmmkay?
Cheers,
when all the major bugs are fixed probably. you still cant write to the flash on the ipaq from linux. its still fairly limited in some areas (too much memory/flash used by linux for example - although thats getting better).
I hate the idea of using Microsoft software based on a combination of their disregard for quality, security, and reliability; concern about questionable business practices; and concern about the dangers of software monoculture. Nothing blind about it.
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
You're right, pricing isn't usually a concern when developing handheld devices. The biggest concern is having a robust operating system. Lemme know when I can exect a robust embedded operating system from your company, Zico, mmmkay?
-- You see, there would be these conclusions that you could jump to
The genie has granted your wish
- Sam
The secret to enjoying Slashdot is to realize that it should not be taken too seriously.
Looks to me like when you're finished adding the PC Card/PC Card Add-on accessory, you've got about a 12oz. handheld. Pain in the Arm (no pun intended). I'll be like carrying around a small can of tomato sauce. Besides, looking at the design, CompactFlash and PC Card are mutually exclusive options on the H3650. Let's face it, with only 32MB SDRAM, using one of them IBM MicroDrives is a necessity, eliminating the possibility of PC Card connectivity.
cat
Well, after your original misinformed post about the Platform Builder when software development was being discussed, I should've known that you had trouble sticking to relevant facts -- either that or you just don't know what they are. Now, people like you can say that CE 3.0 isn't a good embedded OS until your face turns blue, but that won't make it come true. How about presenting some evidence? Oh, and please do tell us all what your experience in the embedded space is -- after that original post snafu of yours, I can't say that I have very high hopes of getting good information from you.
Cheers,
And if someone else "owns" your machine, your in for shit with anykind of OS, not just Linux.
Re-load that flamethrower
Bandazaar
Word is that there will be one at LWE next week.
-russ
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
No, the bar is fairly high: you have to pledge your soul to Bill. That's a cost I can't afford. Can you?
-russ
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
Before you start bitching about getting ripped off
Who was complaining about getting ripped off? I don't have issue with companies making money. That isn't what my complaint is against Microsoft. My complaint is that they use unethical if not outright illegal practices to try to keep anyone else from making money.
And as I said, I really don't care that much if Compaq doesn't give me a refund for not taking Windows or charges me extra for pre-installing Linux instead, as long as they don't send any of my money to Microsoft.
In short, Compaq is willing to consider a Linux-specific iPaq model if their customers (read corporate purchasers, not ghetto slashbot bitchers) ask for it.
Corporate purchasers don't buy that many palmtops (at least not in the companies I've worked for -- and the place I worked prior to where I am now is a Fortune 100 company). Lots of people who work in the corporate world buy handhelds for themselves, but most companies won't spring for something like that, even though they buy many of those people laptops which are far more expensive.
At any rate, as I said before, if Compaq doesn't want to sell me an iPaq without Windows, I will either wait for the Yopy or just buy a Palm Pilot. How hard is it just to sell me the hardware without the software anyway?
(RTFA) Right now, there's no real applications.
Then they should be targeting people like me -- I'm a software developer...
It's just a dev platform where the kernel and X have stabilized. The Linux version is not yet a consumer product by any means.
I couldn't care less if its a 'consumer product' or not, I'm not, and I know I'm not, a typical consumer. Frankly I think that handhelds in general are still somewhat of a specialty market compared to the desktop or laptop market.
You can't. Compaq only has to pay a few bucks to Microsoft for each iPAQ, and it would be too expensive for them to mark you as not using Windows.
There will be a Linux iPAQ on shelves eventually. It's just too soon. Go ahead and buy an iPAQ -- the screen is unbelievably good.
-russ
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
>> X Windows and Unix were never really designed
>> for handheld computers. (Yeah, windows wasn't
>> either, but Windows CE is only a little like
>> regular Windows.)
> WinCE has its share of problems, not the least
> of which is the fact that there's a fairly high
> bar to getting into developing for it. The
> simple fact that X's initial design wasn't for
> handhelds doesn't mean much. The iPAQ is a
> really powerful machine: more horsepower than
> the 5x86/133 I once used to run X.
This misses the point to some extent. Yes,
there's nothing wrong with X *per se* not being
designed for handhelds since current handhelds
are becoming powerful enough to cope with X.
However, the only user interfaces available under
X are designed for desktops and not for 4" screens
with stylus input--and that *is* a problem.
Chris Mattern
Well... what can I say. I will have access to a development prototype (perhaps THE development prototype) PC-card sleeve and wireless NIC later this week (fingers crossed). While the project is for the Windows side, I may have enough time with the devices to mess with a LINUX network interface... I'll keep y'all updated. -BOB
Toil is Stupid. Don't be Stupid.
Check out nano x
Does your Handspring really have 3 weeks of battery life if you leave it on straight for 3 weeks? 100% on with backlight? I don't think so... The PocketPC's battery time is calculated as straight on. The Palm's is always calculated as "normal usage" being x number of minutes a day. I think its something like 5 minutes a day or something small like that - though my memory isn't very good on that number.
I'm sorry, Zico. I don't have enough bandwidth to supply evidence of Microsoft's ineptness with regard to any operating system. It's admirable that you toe the party line, but that doesn't change reality.
And regarding the $3,000 tax to put CE on a handheld device, Microsoft might want to start thinking about paying people to put CE on devices. Maybe then it'll start to take off.
G'day, Mate.
-- You see, there would be these conclusions that you could jump to
X Windows and Unix were never really designed for handheld computers. (Yeah, windows wasn't either, but Windows CE is only a little like regular Windows.)
WinCE has its share of problems, not the least of which is the fact that there's a fairly high bar to getting into developing for it. The simple fact that X's initial design wasn't for handhelds doesn't mean much. The iPAQ is a really powerful machine: more horsepower than the 5x86/133 I once used to run X.
Slashdot recently linked to my interview with Jim Gettys about the issues involved with porting X/Linux to the iPAQ. Considering he's one of the lead developers of X from 1986, I think his words have some weight.
At the moment, though, you're right: you wouldn't want to use Linux on an iPAQ for your PDA. Support is rough because they're still laying in the foundation. The long-term view, though, which is what Compaq is taking, is that with an open handheld (as they call the iPAQ) based on tools familiar to Linux developers, they'll have the groundwork for devices that hit the market with a massive developer base built in. No costs for proprietary development tools, a remarkable amount of experience, and the same sort of enthusiasm for development that's been a mark of the Linux/Free Software community to this point.
Even if the iPAQ doesn't succeed (it's sort of expensive at the moment), Linux handhelds are becoming a reality. The Yopy is based on Linux, and the new AgendaVR3 (which is a lot more like the Palm, only more powerful) is based on Linux. In general, in fact, Linux may succeed more as an embedded platform than a desktop platform. It's in the midst of taking off in that area now.
---
Michael Hall
Michael Hall
mph.puddingbowl.org
If you were really interested in saving bandwidth, you could have just written a single line admitting that you know nothing about embedded OSes. Okay, maybe a little more bandwidth admitting that you don't know anything about the marketplace, either, seeing as you must be unaware that PocketPC makers like Compaq have been unable to keep up with the demand for their devices. Put hey, you be a good sheep and just keep repeating the anti-MS mantra to yourself and hope that it comes true.
Cheers,
I've actually had the oppurtunity to work with Greg Haerr, president of Century Software, on a porting project, and his work is very impressive.
This is very promising, and I have a lot of faith in the future of this, having worked with the MicroWindows architecture on several platforms.
There's a good trick to being unable to keep up with "demand", Zico. Make a limited number of devices. They teach that in shady business 101. I'm sure your bosses still offer lunch and learns on that and other related topics.
What else ya got, Zico?
-- You see, there would be these conclusions that you could jump to
um, it's a subset of the same api as windows
The PC Card expansions for the iPaq isn't available yet, and I haven't heard when it will be.
-- It is too late for the pebbles to vote, the avalanche has already started.
Go ahead and buy an iPAQ
I will either wait or just buy a Palm Pilot for now. As I said before, its not an issue of money, it is an issue of ethics. I just won't do business with Microsoft, no matter how little the amount is.
They're only mutually exclusive simultaneously. No reason why you can't carry both sleeves in your bag: use the the CF sleeve for MP3, etc; swap with the PCMCIA sleeve for wireless connectivity. And for regular PDA usage, use neither and have the Palm-like size and weight you're after.
You could probably try to fight it if you read the EULA and conformed to all the legalese concerning NOT agreeing to the licence, but good luck to you.
It is not worth the effort. I will just wait until they come out with a Linux specific version and probably buy a Palm Pilot for now.
Just use the USB port to talk to a GPS serial port and a net file server with your music on it.
Sorry, that's the wrong iPAQ. Compaq has two products named the iPAQ (doh!): a legacy-free x86 desktop, and the PDA.
-russ
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
Digital Semiconductor was making the StrongArm processor. Compaq sold off Digital Semiconductor to Intel. Yes, this means that Intel is making both the Tulip DC21x4x and Intel 8255[789] Ethernet controllers, and the SA-110 and x86 processors. Compaq kept the Alpha processor, though.
-russ
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
What I want to know is when will i beable to buy one with linux preinstalled.Ive heard of a few but they are not out yet as far as i know.
Somehow it jsut strikes me as a bad idea to put linux on a computer that is "throwable".
My point being as much of a pain in the @$$ it is to install linux on a desktop, we might just see alot of these new things doing double duty as a frizbee.
Jainith
Red Frizbee with a hat picture going...going...gone, thrown out the window by the mad guy in the back row...
Just get the PC Card expansion pack for iPaq, then get the Wireless Lan card. Both are Compaq's web site.
- Desi
I don't want the world, I just want your half.
Linux is only free if your time has no value.
How much time do you have to invest to get Linux running on the iPAQ?
Hey,
/.
They might blindly hate the idea of using Microsoft software. This *is*
Michael
...another insightless comment from Michael Tandy.
"Goodness me, how unlike the FBI to abuse the trust of the American public." -- The Onion
Let's get OmniSky on the thing. At least then you can roam around anywhere and get /. anywhere.
:wonders if the iPaq handles remote clients.
-- Ever notice that fast-burning fuse looks exactly the same as slow-burning fuse? I didn't... (Edgar Montrose)
What is the status on updates/upgrades for wince platforms?
One of the things I really like about the Palm III (and for that matter, Linux) is the ability to freely download new versions of the OS (including major version numbers). MS always seems to make you pay for upgrades at least 90% of what you paid for the last full version.
(nil)
there's a fairly high bar to getting into developing for [Windows CE]
I know I've kidded some people around here for being cheap, but you take the cake. The eMbedded Visual Tools (read: Visual C++ and Visual Basic) for CE 2.x and 3.0 cost a grand total of $0.00. Worried that the $7.50 for shipping and handling might set you back? (Surely you weren't talking about the learning curve for developing for it, since it's the same environment that scads of people already use for developing Win32 apps.)
Cheers,
I read the article and the howto and other referenced material but they don't answer one question. Is it possible to put CE back on after you install linux? I love linux, use it the majority of the time on my home machine, but I am not sure that it is what I would be loading on my handheld. Speaking from experience myself and my friends who have palm pilots use it to keep a schedule and take notes and do basic things but important things. These things can be done on CE but I am not sure there is software on linux to do them as adequatly yet. Not to mention that CE comes with pocket word and excel, and the ability to change a bit of data in a spreadsheet on the fly to get some updated data is something that might come in REALLY handy. Also, CE is quite a bit more stable than any of the other windows counterparts, which isn't saying much but means that it should be reliable enough for day to day use. I guess the point of this entire thing is that if I had one I probably would put linux on it to just see what it ran like, but ONLY if I could go back to CE to do day to day work until some linux software could provide me with a comparable functionality. I find it strange that nowhere does it answer this obvious question...
Maybe this will convince the developers of the various GTK/Qt/Motif/etc. GUI programs to consider screen sizes smaller than 1024 x 768.
Jakob Neilsen's Alertbox column has been talking about the need to consider screen size on handhelds and WAP devices. He's talking primarily about Web applications, but it'll be true for any portable apps.
Developers for handhelds and devices with touch screens will also have to consider that users are more likely to click/tap widgets then drag/scroll them.
Jay (=
I'd love to have Python or Perl.
Get yourself a PocketPC -- Python, PocketC, Visual C++, VB, Scheme, REBOL, etc. Okay, so Perl is still being worked on. And FYI, if you're not quite ready to ditch your current handheld yet, someone's also working on a Perl port for the Palm, too. :)
Speaking of Python, why no Slashdot article about the new Python 1.6 beta 1 just released? Some of us have been waiting forever for an update, and it's just as newsworthy as the "New Kernel 2.3.32983-pre5-ac out!" stories. :P
Cheers,
And how is this different from having WinCE on a computer that can be thrown?
>Other hardware vendors, if they choose Linux, will have the same luxury, and no royalties (that will save 5-10% now, and a greater percentage later).
And if you pick BSD, you don't have to release your source code, unless you really WANT to.
Thus, companies can protect their IP as expressed as source code, if they feel that is the best for them, and yet they can support OpenSource.
If it was said on slashdot, it MUST be true!
That's the same reasoning that failed to see why Vietnam would be hard for the US to conquer. Never underestimate dedicated rebels who are having fun.
-russ
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
Right now, the only way to reflash is to run CELoader under (you guessed it) Windows CE (well, okay, Pocket Windows, but you get the idea). You don't need to run any other Windows software -- you can get CELoader onto your iPAQ using PPP to a Linux box. :)
-russ
p.s. I used to be waiting for a Yopy also, for the same reason. With every passing month, they back the Yopy delivery date off by two months. I handed over yopy.org to someone who cared, and bought myself an iPAQ. Didn't bother me a bit to use Windows to help destroy itself.
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
FreeBSD on the iPAQ was covered in this month's issue of Daemonnews. But I guess FreeBSD isn't trendy enough. sigh...
Are the screenshots for real?
They look too blurred to me. Maybe they were doctored with Photoshop/Gimp. At least it isn't that difficult to take a good picture. In particular, since all four pics were so blurred that you couldn't really read anything (maybe except for a Tux lookalike).
I looked at the jpg file and the pictures seem to be taken with an Olympus SR85 (but that might be fake). These things should be able to give decent pictures even at short distances.
Besides that, why would you want to have Linux on a PDA in the first place? You don't need all the bells and whistles that come with it (the same is true for WinGE).
X11 as well has a long history of use on embedded devices and low-end machines. The fact that it is so configurable and policy-free means that many applications can be moved from the desktop to a handheld simply by using a window manager adapted to the handheld.
And Linux is easy to program for. Windows CE is not even Win32 compatible, and it's a very stripped down environment.
I quote, from handhelds.org:
The Compaq 802.11b wireless PCMCIA card is working
Looks like you're buying one Taco!
Well, I've had a look at the presentation and it's pretty slick. It's the only handheld I've seen so far that makes me look at my HandSpring and go "hmmmm....". The big drawback is still the battery life - one day. Ouch. My Handspring goes for at least three weeks. But I'm impressed by the screen, and the ability to hook up both PC cards and CompactFlash. Sound is nice too.
And actually, the software on it (Windows CE) looks pretty good. They seem to have taken all the good stuff that Palm and Handspring did, and improved on it in many subtle and not-so subtle ways. The contact book, day planner, etc. all look nice.
As usual for Microsoft, by the third time around they often produce something usable. Of course this assumes that the software is actually stable... another thing about the Handspring is I've only gotten it to crash once, and that was while using HackMaster to rotate the screen with custom fonts in some third-party application...
So I have to ask? If the Windows software is stable, would putting Linux on this device improve it's usability, or is it just a neat hack to prove it could be done? I mean, yeah, it would be cool to have the command line and secure shell... but wouldn't you be better off with a good SSH-supporting terminal program just running under Windows?
I kind of think it's just one of those things that people do to show how l33t they are. And that's ok. If I had one, I might try Linux on it just for the boasting rights but after a few days I bet I would want the original software back.
X Windows and Unix were never really designed for handheld computers. (Yeah, windows wasn't either, but Windows CE is only a little like regular Windows.)
Torrey Hoffman (Azog)
Torrey Hoffman (Azog)
"HTML needs a rant tag" - Alan Cox
There is a clip on PCMCIA adapter for the iPAQ for about $100, and the status page says there is support for the compaq 802.11b card.
I'm just waiting for a system to come out that will break the "multiple handheld" platform. It seems that true breakthrough comes when these companies finally put together a system of making things work together. I want to be able to send a program from my Palm to the iPAQ. That's gonna be the truly needed breakthrough.
Actually it's been hard to compare handheld's straight ability because each has their own platform that doesn't give the ability to compare the speed with which it can do a given operation. For example, Windows CE takes X seconds to load, but there is nothing to compare it to on the Jornada's, just sort of the general impression.
My general impression, the Jornada's are crap with those Windows CE OS on them.
Various devices have been tested in the CF and PCMCIA expansion packs, including:
o The IBM 340 MB model DMDM-10340 works
o the Socket LP-E ethernet compact flash ethernet works
o The Toshiba 2GB PCM CIA disk works in the PCMCIA expansion pack
o The Compaq 802.11b wireless PCMCIA card is working.
Rob, looks like you missed this blurb on the handhelds.org 8/7/2000 update... Now you've got to buy one! =)
---------The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
The Century software press release looks pretty darn interesting:
Century Software Embedded Technologies, a leader in open source applications technologies for embedded Linux, today announced the availability of a Linux-based windowing system and graphical development environment for the new Compaq iPAQ handheld computer.
[SNIP...]
The environment includes the well-known Microwindows graphical windowing system for embedded Linux, along with the recently introduced ViewML Internet browser, and the Fast Light Tool Kit (FLTK) applications framework. A stroke-based character-recognition technology, based on Scribble, provides the basis for handwriting recognition. The Microwindows graphical windowing system was chosen because of it's extremely compact size, and it's support of the ViewML browser.
One thing that I've been missing on my Palm III is a powerful, useful, on board development environment (PocketC just doesn't cut it for me...). I'd love to have Python or Perl on my handheld, as I frequently think of interesting problems that I could/would solve if I could write a quick script. If Century's system allows you to use a really small C environment with FLTK on board, that'd be worth having.
---------The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
Apple will sue its employees for leaking info to presss, revoke speaking priveleges at conventions and sue manufacturers of "blueberry" cases.... but nobody has a problem with the iPaq?
BTW, iPaq is a lame name anyway.
What I want to know is where I can buy an iPAQ H3600 without having to buy Windows?
It looks like an interesting little device, but I have no use for Windows, and I don't want any of my money going to Redmond. I really don't care as much if I save any money by getting Linux or no OS installed, I just don't want Microsoft to get any of my money. I might even be winning to pay more to get Linux pre-installed instead of Windows if I knew for sure Microsoft wasn't getting any royalties from my purchase.
Otherwise I am just going to go buy a Palm Pilot even though they aren't quite as nice hardware wise... I'd rather support Palm than Microsoft.
Damn, that sunburn must have stung. There's this new kind of sunblock lotion I saw at the store with benzocaine in it, makes the sting go away, you just rub it in, rub it in, mmm um bub mmf, mind wandered and I got distracted there for a moment...
Think it's time to go to the beach!
Yours from Florida WDK - WKiernan@concentric.net
on the other hand... ...about two years ago, a magazine offered me a tempting sum to fly
:
: out to Hollywood and do a profile of Sharon Stone. This is, of
: course, the drift these days -- the religious adulation of celebrities.
: But I don't give a flying fuck about Sharon Stone, so, for purely
: practical and writerly reasons, I had to pass. - Barbara Ehrenreich
Easy for you to say that when you don't have to back it up with anything.
Your cowardice says more than anything else.
I just can't wait to log into my handheld as "root" so I can serial-cable over the latest rpm of some non-handheld-centric app, and try and hack it to work without a keyboard on a 1/4-vga sized screen.
;->
Henzai looks pretty... for a bunch of screenshots.
Gnome / Xwindow (or variants) on a handheld? Do I *really* need that kind of overhead?
Here's what a handheld OS needs:
-- Non-file-based filesystem.
It needs an executable app, and a data container which contains all data and configs for that app. (just like the Palm does)
-- Non-windowing window system.
All I need is one window at a time which fills the screen, and *occasionally* a small pop-up child window (which *does not* need to be dragged 99% of the time, rather it should pop up out of the way of the current text entry point)
-- Standard row of icons on the top / bottom
Much like the standardized "File Edit View Bla Help" menu bar we all know, all a PDA needs is "New xx xx Switch Quit ?" to make a new entry, do something custom to this program, switch apps, close this app, get help.
-- Ability for apps to sleep and maintain their current state/session, rather than hardcore multitasking.
Quite frankly, with the exception of a timer, I'd *barely* need multitasking. Having an MP3 playing while I'm entering a few appointments is nice, but that's about the extent of it. Maybe a timer running while I charge my clients.
-- Handwriting recognition that works.
See any Grafitti device. All I can say is "Wow". I don't *expect* to use my PDA as a notebook computer, so why would I possibly want to enter data en masse with it? If I ever do, I'll plug in that little folding Palm keyboard.
-- QUICK searching of database files and the ability to call up the corresponding app.
I want to do a search for "Joe Blow" and not only see his "Contacts" entry, but any time logs in my time logger, any transactions in my Expenses program, and anything I've lent him in my Lists program. If I get his name and a row of icons which correspond to the apps that refer to his name, and I can click the icon to go right to that entry in the appropriate program, DAMN that's useful!!
-- Wireless connectivity
Be it by cable to my GSM cell phone, or CompactFlash card with a little 802.11 antenna, or whatever, as long as I have a *full* TCP stack, an IMAP/POP/folder-capable email client, and a text-mode/tables/frame-to-tables rendering browser, and an ICQ client, I'll never be away from useful info.
-- An encryption option for all the data files
Be it by signature-sign-on to the device if I haven't powered it up within an hour, or by tapping a password, or whatever. Very important if it gets lost/stolen.
-- Synchronization to desktops
The biggest problem with Linux even on a desktop, let alone a PDA, is "What the heck would I synch with?" Linux has NO decent organizational apps, and barely any mail apps (Pine is the best competition to Outlook Express, quite frankly!)
And finally,
-- An easy to develop for IDE which can take any standard language, compile it to the PDA's architecture, and has a REALLY nice drag-and-drop designer for the LIMITED standard set of widgets which a PDA would need. (small buttons, small text, button-row (as described above), jog arrows instead of a scroll bar (to save screen real estate), couple of other things I'm sure.)
That's my 2 cents. I can have everything I've asked for with acceptable exceptions, in my PalmPilot. Windows PocketPC is nice, but it's still an overkill OS and has NO apps worth mentioning. Until I see the above, there's no way I'd kill the functionality of a PDA by putting Linux on it.
mindslip.
This HOWTO explains how to install Linux on the IPAQ. Enjoy!
We use the Microwindows library which compiles to
300K or so, including true type fonts and a
Win32-like API, and writes directly to the frame
buffer (or optionally through X).
X is shrinking fast, but still needs a meg or two
more (plus all those runtime libraries), which
makes a big difference on smaller systems.
Also, check out our small open source browser at
http://www.viewml.com/
mark@censoft.com
Now all they need to do is embed mozilla and we've got something.