Slashnet Forum Chat Log

Quite a number of people have e-mailed me wondering about a log for Thursday night's chat. Well, the fine folks at Slashnet have put together a a HTML version and a text version. Again, thanks to all who participated - we hope to do it again soon.

Comments

Hrmh...

[tomcrooze]

the log didn't seem to be too interesting other than poop on lawns and somewhat senseless things like that. maybe it's the geek perspective; i'm not sure. i always thought of myself as a geek, but there are obviously differing degrees of geek. hopefully it'll be better next time...

Re:Hrmh...

[Accipiter]

Um....

The story was posted at 10:19AM. You posted your comment at 10:24AM. You did NOT read the entire chat log in 5 minutes.

Stop trying so desperately to get First Post, and read the goddamn articles.

-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon?

Re:Hrmh...

[_xeno_]

Gee, I was on IRC at the time. Chat log - Hah! - I was there, reading it through the connect/disconnect messages.

(BTW, the questions asked by _xeno_ are me :). Too bad the ones I really wanted answered never made it through the bot.)

So I skipped reading the log - besides, I've got my own copy. If anyone wants a (text) log including what happened after CmdrTaco et. al left (up to the point when Emmett and CowboyNeal left, I think) I've got it, minus all the connect-disconnect messages.

Re:Hrmh...

[JackiePatti]

I read the chat log last night myself; it was posted to the story announcing the chat. I finished it well before 10:19 AM this morning.

Re:Hrmh...

[Karmageddon]

this guy should be modded up. Many of us feel as he does. There's a difference between "geek" and "juvenile" and the log was not interesting. Note that there are very few quotes from the log in this discussion other than he-said/she-said sorts of stuff.

Furthermore, somebody here posted a link to the transcript of the Sig11/Taco "flameout" and it was a big snooze too. (I'm glad it was posted and I'm glad I read this later one, but my take-away is that not much interesting gets said on IRC. Some guy kept saying, "this is a keeper!" about the discussion, but that simply seems based on the fact that there was an argument with a Slashdot celebrity taking place... BO-RING!

Personally I feel like I waste too much time on Slashdot, but I feel better now because I can see how much worse it could be.

And by the way, moderators, my comments here have some negative quality and so does the guy I'm backing up, but that should not disqualify us from getting modded up. These opinions are every bit as valid as the gushing fan club comments.

Re:Hrmh...

[King of the World]

If you went into the irc channel they had an url where you could get the chat log.

You wonder dog, you.

I just have one thing to say

[Pinball Wizard]

to all the f**kwads who post spam and other sorts of crap because they have nothing better to do than try and ruin a great website because they can.

There is such a thing as karma. Not slashdot karma, but in real life. What goes around comes around, and you'll get yours eventually. Think about it.

I watch the sea.
I saw it on TV.

Re:I just have one thing to say

[Kaufmann]

Well, thanks a lot for trying to force your pseudo-mystical spiritualistic dogma on the rest of the Slashdot readership, Mr Pinball Wizard. I bet that all the trolls, as soon as they read your (incredibly well thought-out) post, will immediately start thinking about the consequences of their actions (spouting random nonsense in a public forum) for no other reason than fear of a mythical godlike "force" that will make them pay for it (and who should be believed to actually exist only because a stuck-up better-than-thou "love the community" Karma whore such as yourself says so).

You remind me of the crazy fundamentalists who claim that God ("Karma") will make me go to hell ("get yours eventually") for not believing in the Bible ("behaving like a good Slashdrone").

Stop being an asshole. Stop blaming the trolls for what is really the editors' fault. Stop obsessing about this shit. Get over your infantile delusions of justice from above. Do something about it, if you can see the problem, but stop making these absurd, nonsensical threats.

Re:I just have one thing to say

[Pinball Wizard]

are you so naive as to believe that your actions, however small they may be, do not have consenquences?

I maintain certain truths are obvious to anyone with sense. We don't need scientific proof to tell us the sun comes up every morning. I'm not preaching, just stating what I find(but apparently others don't) obvious.

And yes, it was a perhaps lame attempt to encourage spammers not to spam. I'm not talking about the occassional good troll, but the foul-mouthed garbage and first post nonsense that contaminates /. The editors fault? I don't think so. The editors choice of stories, along with the quality posts, are what makes this site worthwhile. I'm just trying to say if you don't like it, leave and spare us the garbage.

And anyway, if you really want to discredit what I said, please explain how being a spammer will not negatively affect someones future. I don't need a formal proof, just an example of someone who suffered no ill consenquences from his or her youthful stupidity. Aha. Didn't think so.

I watch the sea.
I saw it on TV.

Re:I just have one thing to say

[dattaway]

C..C...Can't we all just get along and rejoice over my new Linux box?

Re:I just have one thing to say

[epukinsk]

Pretend you decided there is someone in your community whose opinions, needs, or desires you don't give a shit about. There are two options:

1) Act like you have no reguard. Flame, be an asshole, or get in their way.

2) Get on with your own life, fight the battles that are important to you and respect your opponents.

Choosing #1 just weakens a community. But we're lucky. The fact is, any social structure relies on the fact that most people have better things to do than choose option #1. Most choose option #2 by default.

-Erik

Re:I just have one thing to say

[shinji1911]

He's simply saying that if you keep being an asshole on Slashdot, you likely act like one elsewhere too. And one day, some big muscular guy's gonna get pissed off, and beat the living shit out of you. Sounds quite reasonable to me.

Re:I just have one thing to say

[Trespass]

Oh, that was just so *intense* of a thought.

Re:I just have one thing to say

[Trespass]

This was even more profound. Thanks for reminding me why most of /. is a dull, pedantic exercise in preaching to the choir followed by the mutual fellatio. It has all the wit, verve, charm, and humor that makes life so very, very, worthwhile.

Re:I just have one thing to say

[Kaufmann]

are you so naive as to believe that your actions, however small they may be, do not have consenquences?

That's very different from saying that "karma exists" in real life.

I maintain certain truths are obvious to anyone with sense.

Sorry pal, but "karma exists" does not qualify as a "truth" that is "obvious to anyone with sense".

We don't need scientific proof to tell us the sun comes up every morning.

... which just goes to show that you also don't understand the scientific method. Are you just trying to flaunt your ignorance? It may get you somewhere amongst your crew of Karma-sucking groupies, but it'll get you nowhere with me.

I'm not talking about the occassional good troll, but the foul-mouthed garbage and first post nonsense that contaminates /.

Have you ever considered that there is a reason why these trolls do it? Try to change your setup to show everything instead of just +2 or higher comments, and read one of the previous replies to your former post (one that was moderated -1, Troll, ironically). He puts it very well: most of the time, they're just trying to get you, the so-called "respectable Slashdotters", to take your collective head out of your ass.

The editors choice of stories, along with the quality posts, are what makes this site worthwhile.

Yes, but in no way does that exempt them from blame in the site's shortcomings.

I'm just trying to say if you don't like it, leave and spare us the garbage.

Oh, well, I'm sorry for trying to change things instead of just whining about how the trolls destroyed our community.

And anyway, if you really want to discredit what I said, please explain how being a spammer will not negatively affect someones future.

Umm... are you serious? As one of my good friends says, LTFU before it's too late.

Aha. Didn't think so.

This last remark just proves that your mind is already made up, and no amount of rational arguing on my part is going to get you to change it. I don't know why I even bother with people who babble about karma like you. Jeez.

Why does eveyone hate Signal 11?

[ndnet]

You guys gang up on him. Isn't the point of Slashdot to let everyone have an opinion? I've read a few of his posts; there better than mine usually.

Re:Why does eveyone hate Signal 11?

[substrate]

Signal 11 got in trouble by manipulating the moderation system. He basically did an endeavour in social engineering or social hacking.

He discovered that there were a number of ways of increasing the probability that your posts would be moderated up. All of the methods were based on pretty sound judgements of how people think and react. I've got no idea what his karma is, but I'll bet its insanely high unless its been modified by the slashdot crew.

People learned that he was manipulating them (or perhaps he even told him, I bowed out of slashdot for a long while due to its suckiness) and got pissed off. They had been had.

Ego's got in the way. It was easier to call him a karma whore or an idiot than admit they had been bested. CmdrTaco is still perpetuating this from what I bothered to read of the chatlog.

I think Signal 11's ego bit him too, he went and bragged about CmdrTaco's off the cuff remarks or actions which further rubbed salt in CmdrTaco's wounds.

Re:Why does eveyone hate Signal 11?

[Zebbers]

no...signal_11 just restates the obvious...and because it is so obvious...morons who have points mod it up since they recognize it. Rarely, does he contribute anything new.

Re:Why does eveyone hate Signal 11?

[gargle]

Signal 11's tale about deliberately "engineering or hacking the system" is hogwash. He realizes now what an idiot he looked like, so he cooked up this story to make it look like everything was part of his grand scheme.

I remember when he first joined slashdot - he would gunk up every discussion with his oh-so-"insightful" posts. But he was completely serious about it - he would boast and brag about his karma, and get into "my-karma-is-higher-than-yours" arguments.

Re:Why does eveyone hate Signal 11?

[_xeno_]

With or without the cap?

(Actually, I'm surprised - since most trolling is done under AC, I would have thought it much lower. Then again, starting at zero you can only lose one point and can gain five, so I guess that does make sense. Although I'm still pissed at Slash (-code, not -dot) after losing 5 karma on one post - if you start at 2, you should only be able to fall 4 points! It also involves hitting "submit" when I thought I hit "preview.")

Re:Why does eveyone hate Signal 11?

[substrate]

Anonymous Coward has the highest at 2400+.

I just tallied up the Anonymous Coward karma total over a couple articles:

Debian on Compaq's iPaq Handheld: +1

GCC's Response To Red Hat: +1

This is a pretty small data set but the results were suprising. I was expecting to refute Hemos' comment but obviously that isn't the case. Since Anonymous Coward comments on every article even if on average the account is moderated only slightly positive it'll amass huge amounts of karma.

Re:Why does eveyone hate Signal 11?

[British]

So you're saying that he on EVERY slashdot story possible, said something that the majority would agree with(and hence moderate up), or just made a funny? Extra bonus if you post early.

Sometimes slashdot reminds me of a typical Jenny Jones show. They often get the "freak" shows going(goths, etc) and are publicly made fun of by the audience. But as soon as the goth/freak/whatever talks about being an individual, everyone claps for him/her. Proof enough that the audience will clap for anyhting, provided you word it right.

Re:Why does eveyone hate Signal 11?

[MrBogus]

Exactly. It's been so long since Signal 11 was karma whoring that a good chunk of Slashdot readers probably weren't here when almost every story would lead with his Score 5 comment.

He was dead serious about it -- Unlike the trolls, there was no hint of irony. He only stopped after people wised up and stopped moderating his comments up, and then concocted a story about it being all a personal game of his. It might have been, but he certainly did not quit when he was on top.

That was over a year ago, and since then most the stuff he's posted here has been average drool. Yet now, he's the self-appointed expert on moderation issues, despite the fact that his "insightful" days have long passed. Oh well, the regular Signal 11 wasn't that bad, but he certainly couldn't back up the posturing found in his farewell speech or his IRC comments.

Re:Why does eveyone hate Signal 11?

[Trespass]

Signal 11 fooled a lot of people who thought they were too smart for it. Too many brittle egos and narrow intelligences. This was quite an illuminating this to witness, and well...

Re:Why does eveyone hate Signal 11?

[grappler]

Signal 11 got in trouble by manipulating the moderation system. He basically did an endeavour in social engineering or social hacking.

He discovered that there were a number of ways of increasing the probability that your posts would be moderated up. All of the methods were based on pretty sound judgements of how people think and react. I've got no idea what his karma is, but I'll bet its insanely high unless its been modified by the slashdot crew.

I bet that's exactly what Mr. 11 tells himself, too, as he sits there holed up in the basement spending day after day on Slashdot, engrossed in his "penetrating", "important" "social engineering".

There's just one thing wrong with that: nobody but Signal 11 gives a flying fuck about Karma points (I sincerely hope). I've been here a while and I got the +1 a long time ago, and ever since then my posts have started at level 2. Why should I keep trying to up the Karma? Taco said it best: it's not penis size.

So when you say these people were "pissed off" that he was "manipulating them" it kinda leaves the impression that the stakes are high or something. People don't care if Sig11 trys to get a bunch of Karma, they care about his overdeveloped sense of self-importance. Anyone who spends as much time here as Sig11 does has the ability to be just as annoying.

Re:Why does eveyone hate Signal 11?

[SweenyTod]

I think Signal11 has shown the moderation system for what it really is, and he's quite successful at it.

I don't mind the guy. Yeah he does the karma whore routine, but I was under the impression that was his aim.

Up until a few weeks ago, I was a member of a local linux user group mailing list, but left when keeping up with it got in the way of work (too much fun arguing). This mailling list is a card carring member of the "Everything Microsoft does is bad, Everything "open source" is good/better/more efficient". Well, that's not true, but if I would point this out, there would be a sense of moral outrage. They had their points in what they said, of course, but most of them refused to see the possibility they *could* be wrong.

/. is a bit like that too, and Sig's outragious karma demonstrates it in how the moderation is done.

unprofessionalism

[dboyles]

This really surprised me:

CmdrTaco: Signal 11 is an idiot.

I think it's pretty clear to /. readers that Signal 11 is not an idiot. A karma whore? Sure, but I'm certain there are people who enjoy reading his comments occasionally. After all, they do get moderated up quite frequently (I suppose this is where you could argue that the moderation system is broken).

CmdrTaco: I am not a corporate drone (despite what the conspiracy theorists think).

I think it's pretty clear that Rob is saying what he feels. But I think it's gotten to the point where it's unprofessional. Why attack one person with name-calling in a public forum? As others have said, Slashdot has entered the "big time" - much more so now with the aquisition by Andover. I think one thing that needs to stop is the unprofessional behavior by some of the Slashdot staff. Calling your posters idiots or interjecting unfounded opinions while reporting a news story is truly a black eye on this forum.

I'm not trying to defend Signal 11, I'm just saying that CmdrTaco and the /. team really have bigger fish to fry. So what if Sig is a karma whore? There are much bigger problems in the moderation system and with trolls (although I don't think the moderation system is irrepairably broken).

Since I don't want to be one of those people who complains about a problem but doesn't offer a solution, I'll say this: I think Kuro5hin's moderation system is pretty good. Instead of me giving a comment an extra point with a +1 moderation, I'd like to be able to say, "this comment deserves a +3." I do get the feeling, though, that /. doesn't want to move to that kind of moderation system in part because of pride. But pride shouldn't stand in the way of a better system.

Re:unprofessionalism

[MadCamel]

What do you want from the guy? I think you are expecting too much of him. He's just a guy, with opinions, and wants to express them, much as you have in your post.

Re:unprofessionalism

[dboyles]

What do you want from the guy? I think you are expecting too much of him. He's just a guy, with opinions, and wants to express them, much as you have in your post.

I don't think it's expecting too much to ask a little professionalism and journalistic integrity. Rob certainly has a right to express his opinions, but (1) there are more constructive ways to do it than "Signal 11 is an idiot" and (2) he is running a for-profit website here.

Had Rob said, "Signal 11 incorrectly believes that I implemented the karma cap to spite him. He's spreading false information that it's only applied to certain accounts." it would have been much different. Not only is it more informative than "Signal 11 is an idiot," it would also make Rob look like the better man.

Re:unprofessionalism

[swinge]

I don't want to defend Taco's professionalism, and I agree with the above's perception of Sig11, but it does occur to me that Taco has a longer history with Siggy with perhaps more emails and stuff that we don't know about. I suggest it because there are surely people on Slashdot who are more publicly irritating, so he must be basing his opinion on something more.

Re:unprofessionalism

[Caine]

What you must realize is this; CmdrTaco and Slashdot aren't, have never been and at least at the moment don't appear to aspire of being journalistic and bigtime. Slashdot is basically what it's always been, a playground for CmdrTaco and his friends to post news. The fact that alot of other people also enjoyed reading it, and the fact that CmdrTaco and c:o has gone to great lengths to make it more enjoyable for those other people doesn't change the fact that it's HIS site and it's without any promises of journalistic integrity (not thereby saying they have none). Bascially he can do whatever the fuck he wants.

And the standard: If you don't like it. Go somehwere else.

Re:unprofessionalism

[jellicle]

Slashdot has more journalistic integrity than most places which claim they do. As for professionalism, heh. People have honest beliefs about others. If Dubya thinks a NYTimes reporter is an asshole, he says it under his breath, and if you asked him, he'd tell you the guy was his best friend in the world. So "professionalism" apparently means "Lying to you". I'd prefer honesty. Ask yourself: would you really rather have someone who gave you PR answers to your questions?
--
Michael Sims-michael at slashdot.org

Re:unprofessionalism

[Tuxedo Mask]

This is incorrect. They don't aspire to be unprofessional, but they do honestly believe that this is a grand experiment in a new kind of journalism. They want slashdot to be a relevant news and discussion site read by thousands. They also want it to be some site thrown together and tightly controlled by CmdrTaco and Hemos. But these goals are turning out to be somewhat incompatible.

Re:unprofessionalism

[Hemos]

Caine,

Thanks. That's what I was going to say. We try our best, but people have this mistaken idea that we are the Wall Street Journal. We're not. We never will be.

Re:unprofessionalism

[Tuxedo Mask]

You've misinterpreted what dboyles said.

Professionalism means treating people in a civil manner, when possible.

Journalistic integrity means making a reasonable effort to tell the truth, to represent others' opinions fairly, and most importantly, to own up for the mistakes that you do make. It is also vitally important to separate fact from opinion.

The "places" which do have journalistic integrity do not go on about how much or little they have.

They show by example.

Re:unprofessionalism

[Pentagram]

Who gives a fuck? The day Taco & /. stops being irreverent is the day I leave. Professionalism == bland. At least, that's the way I see it.

---

Re:unprofessionalism

[MrBogus]

If you read that log, and the Kuro5hin log from a few days before it's pretty clear what Taco is talking about.

Signal 11 is not an idiot for what he's posted on Slashdot. Signal 11 is an idiot (from Taco's viewpoint) because he appointed himself as some sort of expert in topics having to do with moderation and then began to hound Taco about it, post essays on K5, etc.

Basically it boils down to this:
Signal 11: Slashdot is broken
CmdrTaco: Is Not
Signal 11: Is Too
CmdrTaco: Is Not
Signal 11: Is Too
CmdrTaco: You are an idiot.

Re: unprofessionalism

[Tuxedo Mask]

Hmm... Ok, that clears things up a bit. I was misled a bit by this chat log that's been going round:

[22:04] <Signal_11> CmdrTaco: Is slashdot trying to become a respected news source, or is this just purely for fun and

you don't care how many people read it?

[22:04] *** Iron_SpermWhale (ronwalf@cloaked.umd.edu) has joined #kuro5hin

[22:05] <CmdrTaco> a really nice guy emailed me and said 'I miss how you used to talk about hurrying cuz youre late

for class'

[22:05] <drdink> CmdrTaco: can I start flaming you about not updating tacohell?

[22:05] <CmdrTaco> Sig:Yes.

[22:05] <CmdrTaco> Sig:All of the above. And none.

[22:05] <hemos_> Sig: Both.

Anyway, you don't need to reply to this. I suppose I was just misinterpreting something that had been said hurriedly on IRC. I ought to take more to heart what that judge said about the delete key.

Re:unprofessionalism

[Emil Brink]

[...] it would also make Rob look like the better man
Um, but it would also make Rob sound like pretty much like a "corporate drone", right? ;^)

Re:unprofessionalism

[Understudy]

hemos: karma doesn't matter.
Read it people. You are getting worked up over B.S. You place so much emphasis on getting karma. People tend to look at this as the source for the latest and greatest information. Think about that \. is your source for serious news. And a place for your opinion to be taken seriously. Get a grip. If Cmdr Taco or Hemos call Sig 11 an idiot it's because that is how they feel. Sig 11 placed all this importance on moderation scores, when the two people responsibile for the sight place almost none on it. In the log it says contribute your opinion and move on.(paraphrased quote). You want high karma scores so you can moderate the rating of a post? And you take this so seriously that you are willing to scream and shout when it doesn't go just the way you want? And this is your version of professionalism? Slashdot is fun, accidentaly informative, and not to be taken as seriously as real news media. Come to slashdot and learn to enjoy and have fun. Post a comment with a nice link so Hemos can wallpaper his house with another Cease and Desist order.
DeCSS Here

Re:unprofessionalism

[Otter]

Thanks. That's what I was going to say. We try our best, but people have this mistaken idea that we are the Wall Street Journal. We're not. We never will be.

Hemos, I understand that you and CmdrTaco still view yourselves as just two guys with a web site. I admire your modesty, and your not imagining yourselves as Leaders Of Geeks like Jon Katz does. And a lot of the things we complain about weren't a big deal when Slashdot was a couple thousand of us reading articles you guys posted between class.

But you have to recognize that you're running a large media outlet now. (That's why you're millionaires, remember?) Before the NASADAQ collapse, a stake in Andover proportionate to /.'s share of its traffic was valued at more than the New York Yankees franchise! You guys need to recognize that you're in the big time, and either accept that responsibility or pay somebody else to do it. When you reach millions of people, an egregious error every other day just isn't acceptable.

Re:unprofessionalism

[Jburkholder]

>I think one thing that needs to stop is the unprofessional behavior by some of the Slashdot staff.

I think this is where you are damned if you do, damned if you don't. Rob is Rob, he has rough edges, a properly inflated ego and a potty mouth. So what?

One of the big questions when Andover bought /. that I remember was if things were going to change a lot. Was Rob going to take a back seat and a bunch of suits come in to run the site. IIRC, we were told that /. would remain somewhat autonomous and Rob and Jeff would pretty much keep on doing what they were doing (which, afterall is what made /. successful in the first place, why screw with it?)

Seeing Rob on IRC blasting Signal 11 and making other "unprofessional" remarks serves, if nothing else, to demonstrate that Rob is pretty much Rob and he doesn't filter himself for Andover or PR or anything.

If Rob were to 'go straight' and start being "professional" there would no doubt be a howl from the readers that Rob had become a corp drone. For my money, /. is a very colorful place, reflecting Rob's personality to a degree -- I don't really see any reason for it to be otherwise.

Re:unprofessionalism

[tealover]

Shut the fuck up, idiot.

Running a large media outlet my ass. They're running a website that some people deemed worthy enough of giving them bucket loads of money. They haven't changed one thing and I'm glad.

If you want responsible journalism, whatever that means today, then go read Salon or Slate. But whatever you do, please take your sanctimonious bullshit elsewhere.

Re:unprofessionalism

[tlovelace]

I am glad that CmdrTaco is able to say what anyone else would say. I have no problem calling people idiots that I think deserve it. Right on Malda.. keep up the good work

Re:unprofessionalism

[Wiggin]

Also, one tends to get tired of having the same discussion for *years*. there just comes a point where it is just easier and takes lots less time to just say "Signal 11 is an idiot"

Re:unprofessionalism

[Goonie]

I think it's pretty clear that Rob is saying what he feels. But I think it's gotten to the point where it's unprofessional. Why attack one person with name-calling in a public forum?

I think Rob has earned the right to get snaky occasionally, with all the crap he has to deal with. How would you feel if you were a lightning rod for the bruised egos of a bunch of people with so little else in their lives that they get a thrill out of spoiling everybody else's party? In any case, it's probably good to let the world know you're human occasionally. As well as making Rob feel better, if the trollers, karma whores, and other assorted idiots know that there's a real person who gets hurt feelings when they get abused, they might think a bit more about doing so.

Re:unprofessionalism

[elbobo]

oh stop whining ya big baby.

it's just a website, for god's sake.

if rob wants to call someone an idiot, he can damn well do that. since when did it become kosher to censor the editors, but not to censor the posts? it's an open forum, which goes for the users goes for the creators too.

Re:unprofessionalism

[finkployd]

Hemos,
Slashdot is popular. It's popular because people like it. The ones who are vocal and bitch about everything are the minority. There are many more of us who like this site and have visited it for years but do so quietly.

Finkployd

Re:unprofessionalism

[JWhitlock]

Had Rob said, "Signal 11 incorrectly believes that I implemented the karma cap to spite him. He's spreading false information that it's only applied to certain accounts." it would have been much different. Not only is it more informative than "Signal 11 is an idiot," it would also make Rob look like the better man.

If Rob was publishing some official statement on the "Signal 11 controversy", then perhaps I would expect him to use this language. However, this was an online chat, and, to a certain extent, I would expect it to follow the rules of regular conversations - always try to say things diplomatically, but a slip of the tongue or an outburst of emotion is regrettable but forgivable.

I find it disturbing that, even here, everyone's words are being used against them, like a court of law. I remember, back when I first discovered the Internet, I loved that you could put your best foot forward. I could think overnight about a response on a newsgroup, and really put my idea into the best words possible. I silently agreed with the flames against misspellers and those who didn't research the facts, not because I thought they were idiots, but because they didn't take full advantage of the medium, didn't use a spell checker, and didn't search on the web for 5 minutes to do a sanity check on their idea.

Even today, when a well-meaning co-worker sends out a virus alert or get-rich-quick-scheme, I quickly put out a rebuttal with the proper web site link, but then send a slightly longer personal message telling the originator how I found it was a hoax - I feel it's a duty of mine, to instruct others in the power of these new tools, rather to insult them as newbies and idiots.

However, I see more and more people trying to make others eat their words, simply because technology allows them to become etched in silicon. Al Gore is constantly harassed about saying he "created the Internet", while what he said was slightly different ("During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet"), and lots of folks have defended him since then, including Vinton Cerf. George Bush, Jr. gets his own ribbing for various slips of the tongue (including my favorite non-event from the campaign, the so-called "RATS" subliminal message). Indeed, most of politics seems to be an endurance race, to see who can go the longest without saying something wrong and/or stupid. Which may explain why so little gets said these days...

I guess it goes back to Nixon, when he was caught on tape saying some truly awful things. It had a dual political purpose - on one hand, it gave some evidence to the Watergate investigators, but on the other hand, it gave a window into the man's personal life, highlighting some deep flaws.

This may be where the problem is - the press has gotten the impression that it's in the slips of the tongue and the political mistakes that we find the true character of a person, and are constantly trying to get past the "surface" and find the flaws of the "true" person. We have bought into the idea, and are berating Rob for one statement, which may be damning out of context, but completely human if taken in context.

Stop playing the "I caught you!" game, and start treating people like humans, flawed but forgivable. (And sorry, dboyles, for a comment more directed to the community than your comment).

Re:unprofessionalism

[ckedge]

> I think it's pretty clear to /. readers that Signal 11 is not an idiot.

Yes he is. I concurr with CmdrTaco and Hemos' opinions on Signal11 100%. If I were either of them, I would have banned him and his ilk long ago. It's people like Signal11 who have destroyed Slashdot, it's the reason I gave up my sub-80,000 account in frustration a while ago, it's the reason I and others like me may continue to stay away. It's the reason that the current discussions are full of such idiots and pathetic comments, and yes I'm talking about even the stuff that's modded up. In fact, it's quite clear that the IQ of the mass of moderators (let alone posters) has fallen below 100.

Perhaps you didn't notice a lot of what went on with siggy, but basically it can be summarized like this:

Siggy thinks he's so smart, and he has to prove it, just like all immature people feel they need to prove themselves, *bar nothing*. Thus when he came across something that he thought was *leet*, something he thought was broken or could be used as a weapon, he had to prove that it was broken or that it could be used as a weapon.

As a result he became the very thing he now claims that he was trying to prove 'could exist'. What kind of idiot picks up a knife and says "gosh, this could hurt some one, I'd better prove it and knife the next kid I see".

It's a pathetic world when hundreds of newsgroups, sites, and public parks get destroyed or made generally useless because of the morons like Signal11, when we have to spend any effort at all 'bomb proofing' our things and our world against such morons.

> I do get the feeling, though, that /. doesn't want to move to that
> kind of moderation system in part because of pride.

Umm, no, it's CPU horsepower that's preventing it. And coding. Can't just wish it into existence. Didn't you read the logs?

This is another thing that pisses me off. All these whiny people bitching about how the moderation system is "broken" because the trolls can find a way to fuck with you. The trolls wouldn't be able to do it if you weren't so ill informed that you regarded Signal11 as 'not an idiot'.

Goal of the Forum?

[discore]

At the begining of it Taco said that the goal of the forum was to update the FAQ!
From reading the logs (well skimming through before I goto work) it doesn't seem that goal was met too well.
Most of the questions are either about:
Opinions on things (napster, etc)
Questions about how /. works (logging, etc)
Complaints

Maybe in the future you guys should ask for questions a day early, let them get moderated around a little, and choose ones that would fulfill your goal.
Still though, thanks a lot for doing this, I appreciated it =)

Re:Goal of the Forum?

[fReNeTiK]

Questions about how /. works (logging, etc)

Well but that's precisely the kind of questions which should go into the FAQ, no? I think overall the Q&A was ontopic and quite a success.

As for the other kind of questions (complaints, etc.). There is a serious need for improved communication between the /. crew and us readers/comment posters. Much of the distrust and general flames stem from this imho.

That's why I asked the following question...


&#60Questions&#62 frenetik asks: I think the reason alot of people have conspiracy theories or are generally angry at /. is because there's not enough meta-discussion about the site. What do you think about a (perhaps permanent) meta thread, where people could discuss /., trolls etc. without being marked offtopic (yes I know about the sids, I check them regularly, and I know you do too, but something more official would be nice)
&#60CmdrTaco&#62 meta thread is fine, but who runs it?
&#60hemos&#62 That's was talked about the other night.
&#60CmdrTaco&#62 I don't have time to run Slashdot and *talk* about running slashdot.
&#60CmdrTaco&#62 people don't understand that.
&#60hemos&#62 If I had more time I'd be in there more. We'll see - but the constraint is authors time.
&#60CmdrTaco&#62 hopefully we can do these chat things more often. maybe that'll help.
&#60CmdrTaco&#62 Stories about Slashdot on Slashdot bore me.
&#60CmdrTaco&#62 I wanna read about legos dammit.
&#60CmdrTaco&#62 next


(Emphasis mine)

Now I can understand his statement since slashdot is all he does all day long. Me, I'm not fanatic enough to download and read the code or to learn how moderation works in all it's glory. However, when something like bitchslapping seems to appear out of nowhere, I get suspicious.

Also, there have been quite a few changes which should have been announced but weren't, like the karma-cap. Of course such stuff shouldn't appear on the front-page, and naturally I don't expect Taco to scour heaps and heaps of comments each day to make me happy. But something like an "inside slashdot" section or some sort of a changelog would be nice. (No, slashcode.com doesn't do it for me yet since afaik they're not fully synchronized). More Lego stories would be fine btw.

Sorry this generated into a rant...

Re:Goal of the Forum?

[atrowe]

"Most of the questions are either about: Opinions on things (napster, etc) Questions about how /. works (logging, etc) Complaints "

I believe all of the above DO qualify as Frequently Asked Questions. So it looks like Taco & Hemos met their goals.

Re:Goal of the Forum?

[drdink]

FAQ stands for "Frequently Asked Question". As an admin on SlashNET, I can tell you that there were many duplicate questiosn we had to weed out as people were asking them. It was obvious we (not including me, as I did not maintain the question queue) missed some. Because of teh nature of the acronym FAQ, I think that it doesn't matter what the question is about, but the fact that it is a question that is asked a lot. Is it wrong to have questions in the Slashdot FAQ which cover views and thoughts of the people behind the Slashdot website itself?

Re:No, no, not you.

[AFCArchvile]

I didn't mean your company, I meant the term, propaganda, as in the incredibly one-sided advertisements made primarily to sway opinions and maintain loyalty.

Re:No, no, not you.

[Bowie J. Poag]

Heh..Go get another cup of coffee, you completely missed my attempt at humor. :)
Bowie J. Poag

Re:Anyone else think this was rigged?

[Anonymous Coward]

The questions wern't moderated by the slashdot staff, they were handled by the slashnet crew, only the best made it through to the forum, as over 1000 questions were submited.

Worst IRC log HTML design I've seen

[acumen]

Couldn't they put the questions and answers in different colors? pshy.

Re:Worst IRC log HTML design I've seen

[drwiii]

Complain to jwz, he's the one who wrote it. ;>

Re:Worst IRC log HTML design I've seen

[GigsVT]

OK OK, maybe I am just in a Simpson's mood, but doesn't this guy remind you of the comic shop guys that is always muttering "Worst episode ever?"
-

Re:Worst IRC log HTML design I've seen

[drdink]

Feel free to make a new one that can take the input of the text log and output something in HTML. The current script was given to me by jwz. I am happy with it so I have no incentive to update it. If you can present something better, I'd be interrested to see it and possibly use it.

Re:The problem with /.

[AFCArchvile]

That's like slipping the dagger into your own chest. Sure, no one would abuse that, but no one would want to even use it, either.

Correction...

[fReNeTiK]

WHat I actually wanted to emphasize was the line Stories about Slashdot on Slashdot bore me. by Rob. It somehow got lost...

What did I miss?

[Sebbo]

Where can I see this famous CT vs. S11 slapfest IRC log? It sounds like some jolly campfire reading.

Re:What did I miss?

[Anonymous Coward]

have fun.

SlashTrolls

[citizenc]

I've had an epiffinay.. what if the so-called 'trolls' are nothing more then users who don't have the experience/knowledge that we do, and therefore have to ask questions/post comments that, to us, appear to be nothing more then an attempt to goad us into an argument, but for them is a legitimate comment?

Or, maybe they're just this guy. =)


------------
CitizenC

Re:SlashTrolls

[Anonymous Coward]

The trolls are at least intelligent enough to spell epiphany right, as opposed to you. Do you even know what this word means?

In addition I think you misunderstand what a troll really is.

Is this a troll?

No, but this is. (Mad props to him btw)

Rest assured that most quality trolls are actually long-standing members of the slashdot readership and know very well how this place works. If it weren't for trolls, this place would long ago have degenerated into a meeting place for drooling linux-r00lz-m$-sucks-gimme-warez wankers.

Face it, we keep this place alive. You need us.

...Uh, IHBT, right?

Re:The most enjoyable thing...

[shonson]

not to mention their join/part floods, abusive wallops and other things, there was something like a 1/20 troll/ok person ratio in the channel.

Re:Oh Dear, Hemos.

[diamondc]

I'm probably using and enjoying some of his tiles and graphics, but Jesus, that Poag guy is one ugly motherfucker.

Signal 11 personifies everything that is wrong...

[FallLine]

Though I'm not exactly sure why CmdrTaco and company dislike Signal 11 now, Signal 11 personifies everything that is wrong with slashdot. He was the most effective and the most vocal personality for, what I call, the slashdot junior crowd. Everything he said was a targeted populism, designed to strike a cord with this crowd. To see that sort of idiocy, the lack of questioning, elevated as "journalism" really turns me (and i'm sure many others) off. It's not that I can't tolerate idiots--I know there will always be plenty of them out there. But to see it gain acceptance, to see everything being painted in broad strokes of black and white, and to see it be swallowed by a significant majority sickens me.

That being said, I sincerely doubt this is the reason why slashdot dislikes him now. In fact, the longer I stay here, the more it becomes apparent to me that this style of slashdot is what they love. Whether they admit it, or not, I know they profit from the lack of balanced and reasonable discussion. While an effective moderation system that could attain both balance and reason would be worthwhile, I don't believe it could ever draw the kinds of crowds that slashdot does, or can. Put simply, people don't come here for balanced journalism; they come here to argue and/or bitch. Balanced journalism is never going to draw people the way it does now, where they hit reload and literally spend hours a day here.

Slashdot is basically a necessarily niche product/service. It draws a certain audience, its loyal reloading 24-7 audience, in alarming proportions (i.e., young/techie/sub-professional/passionate/malconten ts). Slashdot knows on some level that they risk alienating this crowd, and this crowd is exclusively what slashdot has managed to capitalize on. Thus they will continue to insure that the flames are fanned, even if they could design effective moderation.

It's a real shame too. Although I'm skeptical, if any open system could ever attain real journalistic quality, the potential benefits of anything even approaching that are too great to ignore. Slashdot, the one place that has the visibility and credibility (misplaced though it may be), refuses to make a real effort towards that goal. My hope is that a significant percentage of the audience grows tired of this routine, and demands a more mature discussion....

My thoughts

[vanguard]

• CmdrTaco is not unprofessional. He's just uncensored. If I start getting crap for being honest and on target at work I'll move on to another job.
  
• Where can I find the IRC log of CmdrTaco's conversation with Signal_11?
  
• This is one of the best sites on the net. Let's not kill the people who brought it to us by bashing them every chance we get.
  

Vanguard

Re:My thoughts

[fReNeTiK]

Here. Altough it's not nearly as nasty as some people would make it appear.

If you want the unedited version of what went on in #forum and a couple of other channels, I put my irc logs up here (have a look at the trollish /quit messages in forum, they're just too funny).

Moderators.

[TheReverand]

It is patently impossible for the above post to read as redundant. It is post #12, and none of the first 11 posts say anything of the kind. You are abusing your moderator status, and you WILL be knocked down in M2.

Thank You.

TheReverand

Re:Moderators.

[_xeno_]

Highly unlikely. It's not worth my time to verify "Redundant" mods in M2.

Actually, it's not worth my time to participate in M2 at all.

Besides, CID 12 really shouldn't be modded down since it is quite true. CmdrTaco seemed to rationalize it by "I've taken enough shit from others, I can give it to Signal."

Re:Moderators.

[Syberghost]

It's only barely even theoretically possible to verify redundancy in a moderation, especially since the poster names were removed.

Redundant probably needs to go away. I don't recall ever marking a "redundant" moderation as unfair, except on the occasions when I've marked everything as unfair to underscore the need for metamoderation-averaging.

Redundant is damn near as good as Overrated for preserving your karma when moderating.

-

after the forum

[osm]

[22:58] ùíù CmdrTaco [~malda@0.0.0.0] has joined #trolls
[22:59] <TheReverand> yeah
[22:59] <TheReverand> hell yeah
[22:59] ùíù mode/#trolls [+v CmdrTaco] by ater
[22:59] <CmdrTaco> not done yet ;)
[22:59] <CmdrTaco> gimme a bit.
[22:59] <OOG_THE_CAVEMAN> TACO!!!
[22:59] <TheReverand> that's coolk
[22:59] <Trollmastah> Hey bud, Nice Job, Thanks
[22:59] <Trollmastah> See I told you we'd be good.
[23:00] <Trollmastah> See if We can get Jeff for a few
minutes
[23:00] <ater> yeah that would 0wn
[23:01] <ater> brb
[23:01] <Trollmastah> osm, You still in Kansas?
[23:01] ùíù SignOff ater: #trolls (Quit: Leaving)
[23:01] <CmdrTaco> jeff needs to go to bed.
[23:01] <osm> missouri, actually
[23:01] <CmdrTaco> he has a kid and shit ;)
[23:01] <Trollmastah> Thanks Rob, That was pretty good
[23:02] <timothy> I think he'd be a fun dad.
[23:02] <OOG_THE_CAVEMAN> heh
[23:02] <OOG_THE_CAVEMAN> wow
[23:02] <Trollmastah> His Mrs. Is pregnant? How'd that
happen??
[23:02] ùíù ater [ater@cloaked.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has
joined #trolls
[23:03] <timothy> I think I'd be a fun dad, too.
[23:03] ùíù mode/#trolls [+o ater] by OOG_THE_CAVEMAN
[23:03] <osm> my boss's wife recently had a baby who she is
breastfeeding.
[23:03] <Trollmastah> How old are you?? I'm a dad 4 times
over
[23:03] <osm> i saw it puke up mother's milk yesterday
[23:03] <Trollmastah> Yuk
[23:03] <osm> i have been turned off kids forever
[23:03] <ater> wow
[23:04] <Trollmastah> How did it taste?
[23:04] <ater> im still a friggin kid
[23:04] <osm> that was emotionally scarring
[23:04] <em> ouch, just got out of #forum... heheh
[23:04] <Trollmastah> I think you were pretty scarred
already
[23:04] <osm> you're probably right.
[23:04] <AOC> so taco, how many emails / day do you get
complaining about trolls?
[23:05] <CmdrTaco> not that many.
[23:05] <timothy> breastfeeding is amazing.
[23:05] <Trollmastah> Your pretty good about responding to
ours.
[23:05] <CmdrTaco> most email just says "Slashdot is broken"
[23:05] <ater> yeah
[23:05] <CmdrTaco> and they use the acts of a dozen trolls
as proof.
[23:06] <TheReverand> heh
[23:06] <Trollmastah> But it's not. Don't they get it. It's
worknig just fine. Don't fic it if it isnt broken
[23:06] <CmdrTaco> I don't mind some of trolls. Some of them
are uncool.
[23:06] <osm> timothy: you just have to see that mucousy
white fluid one time... it'll make your spine crawl.
[23:06] <em> well, it's working better now with the cap,
IMHO...
[23:06] <AOC> jesus, it's like bnet's channel=trade over in
#forum
[23:06] <OOG_THE_CAVEMAN> yeah i seriously dont have an
issue with it
[23:06] <CmdrTaco> Like the ones that post hundreds of
comments.
[23:06] <TheReverand> So taco what was up with michael
today? That was really not cool
[23:06] <Trollmastah> Sorry
[23:06] <OOG_THE_CAVEMAN> i just like trolling :)
[23:07] <Trollmastah> Good thread today all in all though.
Quite spirited
[23:07] <TheReverand> Yeah I had a blast
[23:07] <timothy> I dunno, I think he was speaking honestly.
There are a lot of destructive posts, the equivalent of
earpoking, my new favorite analogy.
[23:07] <TheReverand> heh
[23:07] <timothy> Look ...
[23:07] <OOG_THE_CAVEMAN> well
[23:07] <Trollmastah> Rob, Who was the first Bitchslap? Was
it a bot we never heard about?
[23:07] <em> but he was addressing it at the wrong people...
[23:08] <timothy> when I walk around a town with kids, I
tell them funny stories, most of which aren't true.
[23:08] <timothy> That's trolling, maybe, in the idealized,
"just another voice sense."
[23:08] <OOG_THE_CAVEMAN> yeah, i dont think he should have
called that random poster a troll
[23:08] <CmdrTaco> only a couple dozen folks were ever bitch
slapped.
[23:08] ð ater/#trolls coughs at osm :)
[23:08] <TheReverand> Seriously, 99% of the stuff I post I
really believe, it is just considered trolling around here
[23:08] <CmdrTaco> conspiracy theorists just used it as
their random complaint.
[23:08] <timothy> If I told them pornographic stories, threw
a few down manholes, and got some lost on purpose just to
make them cry, that's the usual trolling reality.
[23:08] <ater> yeah
[23:08] <TheReverand> I am NOT slashdot correct
[23:09] <Trollmastah> Does that include some of our doubles?
*Grin*
[23:09] <osm> thanks, ater... i'm proud of my bitchslapping
[23:09] <em> same for me...
[23:09] <ater> all my Emerson Willowick stuff is just a
scary bigot version of myself
[23:09] <em> yup. me too
[23:09] <CmdrTaco> we know who is doubles.
[23:09] <Trollmastah> Me Too! Sort of a -two crew.
[23:09] <CmdrTaco> thats the sad thing.
[23:09] <ater> yeah i guessed
[23:09] <CmdrTaco> you guys are a lot less numerous then you
pretend to be.
[23:09] <em> Estanislao is me, but with a huge ego and no
compassion
[23:09] <TheReverand> ha
[23:09] <timothy> I am probably the most likely of the
slashdot authors (well, cliff and me both) to defent MS on
certain points ... that's gotten me marked as a troll /
flamebait.
[23:09] <CmdrTaco> thats the thing that makes it so
frustering.
[23:09] <Trollmastah> Yeah, but in the long run ""It's all
good"
[23:10] <ater> why so
[23:10] <CmdrTaco> if 25 people shut up, trolling Slashdot
would be virtually non existant.
[23:10] <Trollmastah> Yup
[23:10] <ater> fair
[23:10] <TheReverand> Hey Taco, any doubles WE don't know
about ?
[23:10] <AOC> which would be a shame, in my opinion
[23:10] <CmdrTaco> I could work 8 hour days.
[23:10] <Trollmastah> Actually it's more like 12
[23:10] <CmdrTaco> I would get 1/2 the flame.
[23:10] <CmdrTaco> I could take a day off occasionally.
[23:10] <ater> hm
[23:10] <CmdrTaco> maybe see my girlfriend.
[23:11] <TheReverand> Yeah but you drive a BMW
[23:11] <timothy> speaking of day off, have a good tomorrow.
[23:11] <CmdrTaco> not have sore wrists 3 out of 5 days.
[23:11] <CmdrTaco> a *leased* BMW ;)
[23:11] <Trollmastah> You don't get real flame from us do
you? Most of our correspondence with you has been very on
the level.
[23:11] <TheReverand> heh
[23:11] <CmdrTaco> I don't get flame *from* you.
[23:11] <TheReverand> about us I think
[23:11] <CmdrTaco> I get flame because slashdots moderation
system is evil and corrupt.
[23:11] <Trollmastah> I get it.
[23:11] <ater> i honestly think most of the vocal people
would always be finding some shit to complain about
[23:11] <timothy> keybaords don't hurt wrists ... mice and
trackballs hurt wrists.
[23:11] <CmdrTaco> and about 25 people are the whole reason.
[23:11] <AOC> do away with moderation then :)
[23:11] <CmdrTaco> oh yeah, that'd help.
[23:11] <timothy> CmdrTaco: on your special chair keyboard,
what is the pointing device?
[23:12] <CmdrTaco> I don't have that anymore, but it was a
touch pad.
[23:12] <osm> have you bitchslapped all of the 25?
[23:12] <CmdrTaco> nah.
[23:12] <ater> just you osm :)
[23:12] <CmdrTaco> I bet only like 5 non-bots were ever
bitchslapped.
[23:12] <CmdrTaco> maybe 10.
[23:12] <ater> think of it as a gift to natalie
[23:12] <TheReverand> Slashdot-Terminal!!!
[23:12] <AOC> true... trolling maybe an easy route for the
whiners to take, but it wouldn't stop there... there's
always another siggy
[23:12] <Trollmastah> Complaining. what a bunch u\of
professional victims. Those guys have nothing better to do
thankn complan\in about the forum.
[23:12] <CmdrTaco> thats the sad part.
[23:12] <osm> maybe you should... i think it's fair.
[23:12] <em> osm, kp, /.-term, who else?
[23:12] <osm> i'm perfectly happy posting at -1
[23:12] <ater> pbg
[23:12] <ater> syringe
[23:12] <TheReverand> ttm
[23:13] <em> but pbg and syring are bots, right?
[23:13] <Trollmastah> Your management of siggy was great.
[23:13] <ater> basically
[23:13] <CmdrTaco> several of those were bots.
[23:13] <AOC> and your management of vlad was great
[23:13] <CmdrTaco> I don't even remember these guys.
[23:13] <em> except for when you had to take back the "no
code for one person" bit...
[23:13] <Trollmastah> me
[23:13] <ater> well aside from oog
[23:13] <CmdrTaco> thats the thing, I don't keep track.
Usually I don't even read names.
[23:13] <ater> if i did most of my posts as normally how i
felt
[23:13] <osm> signal 11... god, i wish i'd flamed him more.
[23:13] <CmdrTaco> I just read the comments from a single
person.
[23:13] <ater> id still be branded a troll
[23:14] <ater> and im sure the same goes for the rest of us
here
[23:14] <timothy> signal11 did send in some good posts
sometimes. But he also acted rudely, far more often.
[23:14] <Trollmastah> He shot me a \note, you got to him
pretty good.
[23:14] <CmdrTaco> go after him on k5.
[23:14] <CmdrTaco> :)
[23:14] <TheReverand> same here
[23:14] <osm> i wish i could
[23:14] <CmdrTaco> He's a self righteous twit.
[23:14] <CmdrTaco> He thinks he's *so* important.
[23:14] <Trollmastah> You have a mean streak
[23:14] <em> the problem with siggy is he had so much karma
he could just do mental diarrhea...
[23:14] <CmdrTaco> It only rears its head once in a great
while.
[23:14] <CmdrTaco> :)
[23:14] <ater> heh
[23:14] <CmdrTaco> I'm very huggable :)
[23:14] <osm> i didn't realize how much so til i read his
little farewell speech... what an ass.
[23:14] <CmdrTaco> but sig11 pushed me to far.
[23:14] <Trollmastah> What happened to the fastdoc account?
[23:14] <timothy> why does that phrase keep coming up?!
[23:14] <CmdrTaco> he wrote me email like that all the time.
[23:15] <CmdrTaco> he was a pest.
[23:15] <CmdrTaco> he bitched about me every chance he got.
he thought he was so important to me.
[23:15] <timothy> ("I'm very huggable"?)
[23:15] <CmdrTaco> so I told him off.
[23:15] <AOC> fascdotkilledmypr started back around the same
time as MEEPT
[23:15] <ater> yeah i heard some fascdot references on
#forum but didnt see them
[23:15] <Trollmastah> Tim, not here dude.
[23:15] <ater> was fascdot a joke account too
[23:15] <AOC> no
[23:16] <Trollmastah> Sure it was
[23:16] <ater> so that guy really was a prick :)
[23:16] <TheReverand> Who's Joke was it?
[23:16] <TheReverand> That's the Question
[23:16] <AOC> if I recall correctly, he had a bunch of
"SlashdotSucksMyNuts" accounts and spammed all over the
place with them
[23:16] <Trollmastah> Rob, Did you really think the
Trollmastah account was a bot? That's flattering in sick
sort of way.
[23:16] <ater> ahh back before my times
[23:16] <ater> im a friggin youngin
[23:17] <CmdrTaco> I don't usually attach nicknames to
posters.
[23:17] <TheReverand> AOC that was me as "fascdot licks mah
ba" and IO only folwed him around
[23:17] <ater> lol i remember that
[23:17] <CmdrTaco> I don't think "I think user Bob is a
Troll"
[23:17] <AOC> no, this was before he showed up as fascdot
[23:17] <CmdrTaco> I find a user who is a bot.
[23:17] <TheReverand> aah
[23:17] <CmdrTaco> then I look.
[23:17] <CmdrTaco> I usually don't even check who it is.
[23:17] <CmdrTaco> thats the thing.
[23:17] <ater> aside from the spammers i dont see how trolls
could be a problem here
[23:18] <timothy> there's no policy against multi accounts,
right?
[23:18] <Trollmastah> Cool. I saw that on your K5 thread
with Siggy and got a kick out of it/
[23:18] <CmdrTaco> Folks think that I had "User Y" and user
Y gets a stick up his ass. Then he bitches. But I've never
*heard* of user Y.
[23:18] <ater> oh
[23:18] <CmdrTaco> Multi-accounts are fine as long as they
aren't abused.
[23:18] -Global(services@services.slashnet.org)- A log of
the Slashdot forum can be obtained from
http://www.slashnet.org/forums/Slashdot-05Oct00. txt
[23:18] <Trollmastah> Did you post that troll on the 10
grams sid?
[23:18] <CmdrTaco> if I see script behavior, they get
banned.
[23:18] <CmdrTaco> yeah.
[23:18] <CmdrTaco> I did ;)
[23:18] <TheReverand> HA
[23:18] <CmdrTaco> suckers ;)
[23:18] <ater> cool
[23:18] <TheReverand> THat RULED
[23:18] <TheReverand> It was all over the mailing list
[23:18] <AOC> that was excellent indeed
[23:19] <TheReverand> for about a week
[23:19] <Trollmastah> Thought so. Very funny, you had us
goin' for a while.
[23:19] <CmdrTaco> I got tons of mail from people who
thought it was real.
[23:19] <ater> i cant believe people fell for it :)
[23:19] <CmdrTaco> "You should know that someone haxx0red
you" :)
[23:19] <Trollmastah> I did
[23:19] <CmdrTaco> it was great.
[23:19] ð CmdrTaco/#trolls is the king of trolls.
[23:19] <ater> heh
[23:19] <Trollmastah> LMAO! Yup
[23:19] <ater> he's one of us
[23:19] <CmdrTaco> the difference is I doing once every
couple months instead of 100 comments per day.
[23:19] <timothy> I have a separate account because
sometimes I want to say something that is eitherless
diplomatic ... but not usually. Usually it's just nice to be
associated only witth previous posts made by a particular
account.
[23:19] <AOC> we have more free time
[23:20] <ater> oh yes
[23:20] <Trollmastah> WaNNA BE ADDED TO THE MAILING LIST? ..
.. uMM eRRN nEVERMIND
[23:20] <CmdrTaco> I'd have more if you shut up a little.
[23:20] <Trollmastah> Understood
[23:20] <CmdrTaco> 25 people suck hundreds of hours of my
life.
[23:20] <ater> what exactly do you mean though... like spam,
offtopic shit, or Jon Erikson type trolls
[23:20] <timothy> I wonder if there are full-time trolls for
things like forums on the MS site, etc
[23:21] <TheReverand> I don't know I don't think that's
really fair, If people didn't know we were trolling they
wouldn't complain
[23:21] <osm> that's an idea, timothy!
[23:21] <timothy> ZDNet?
[23:21] <CmdrTaco> I WANT TO PRACTICE MY POWER CHORDS!
[23:21] <Trollmastah> What about the legal meta troll? Did
we have you going or just enable spam?
[23:21] <ater> the first 2 are things i try to limit from
time to time (except for OOG shit)
[23:21] <timothy> play Sweet Jane
[23:21] <TheReverand> I don't have time for this idiots"
[23:21] <ater> but if you mean like RWM trolls and stuff
like that i think its more an issue with the users :/
[23:21] <CmdrTaco> I don't typically fall for trolls.
[23:21] <timothy> I want to spend my free time with the
beautiful girls at the library who I can't even talk to ...
[23:21] <AOC> If people aren't complaining about trolls,
they'd be complaining about something else
[23:21] <CmdrTaco> but other people do, and they email me
and bitch.
[23:22] <CmdrTaco> like the troll that was 'Slashdot banned
me'
[23:22] <TheReverand> CmdrTaco YOu want some guitar lessons?
Nex Time I'm in Grand Rapids
[23:22] <Trollmastah> Not the effect we were looking for.
[23:22] <CmdrTaco> the cease and desist one.
[23:22] ð CmdrTaco/#trolls loves lessons.
[23:22] <ater> you mean the osm thing, heh
[23:22] <ater> ?
[23:22] <TheReverand> Give me some karma
[23:22] <osm> teehee
[23:22] <TheReverand> heh
[23:22] <CmdrTaco> I got hundreds of emails from angry
people.
[23:22] <AOC> you need an automated responder, rob: "YHBT
YHL HAND"
[23:22] <Trollmastah> Would you be interested in seeing the
troll demographics? We have 'em arround here somewhaere
[23:22] <CmdrTaco> "YOU FUCKING SUCK! HOW DARE YOU! YOU
HYPOCRIT!"
[23:22] <em> http://www.io.com/~zikzak/troll_thesis.html
[23:22] <osm> sorry about that man... i really didn't expect
it would get that much of a response.
[23:22] <TheReverand> ttm which demo's you talking about?
[23:23] <CmdrTaco> you have any idea how much shit that put
me through?
[23:23] <TheReverand> heh
[23:23] <CmdrTaco> I'm just a guy here, nobody deserves
that.
[23:23] <timothy> em - you in Austin?
[23:23] <ater> CmdrTaco: how bout the more usual stuff, like
Jon Erikson, Estanislao Martinez, Emerson Wilowick, etc?
[23:23] <em> no
[23:23] <em> timothy: no
[23:23] <CmdrTaco> I don't know nicks.
[23:23] <CmdrTaco> unless they look like bots, I don't care.
[23:23] <em> timothy: that was ZikZak
[23:23] <ater> CmdrTaco: ok, well im referring to the
"extremist" type trolls
[23:23] <timothy> em - ok, I just see the io link, and
they're in Tx, right.
[23:23] <CmdrTaco> I don't know them by name.
[23:23] <Trollmastah> The generic ones with
age/location/married etc. the list we started when we
started the mail list
[23:23] <em> yep
[23:23] <timothy> I was timothy@io.com for a bit ...
[23:24] <TheReverand> troll aha
[23:24] <TheReverand> I have that list
[23:24] <ater> the classic definition of troll if you will,
like posting flamebait
[23:24] <CmdrTaco> I don't care about the flamebait so much.
[23:24] <Trollmastah> It'd even tha playing field a little.
[23:24] <CmdrTaco> I care about intentionally lying to cause
someone else shit.
[23:24] <CmdrTaco> "Slashdot Did Lie X"
[23:24] <ater> ahh
[23:24] <CmdrTaco> thats the worst.
[23:24] <ater> i can understand that, i just avoid that shit
[23:24] <CmdrTaco> Or liable/slander stuffs.
[23:25] <CmdrTaco> like the bot posting Kathleen's home
phone number.
[23:25] <Trollmastah> It was all in fun, just got a little
out of hand
[23:25] <CmdrTaco> You know you can go to /jail/ for that if
I wasn't a good person.
[23:25] <CmdrTaco> not a joke.
[23:25] <osm> i don't think anyone here would do that
[23:25] <TheReverand> To be fair though, we only planned
that lawsuiot thing once, and we never actually named names
[23:25] ð timothy/#trolls is going to watch some TV now and
post from the couch.
[23:25] <ater> i was thinking of doing an "OOG_THE_CAVEMAN
gets sued my the producers of the Super Mario Brothers
cartoon" thing :)
[23:25] <CmdrTaco> you cna have the fucking FBI in your
house.
[23:25] <Trollmastah> The legal got out of hand, the phone
number was not us. We dont play like that
[23:25] <CmdrTaco> its *scary*
[23:25] <osm> i was getting death threats myself for a while
[23:25] <TheReverand> none of us would post personal info
that's just wrong
[23:25] <CmdrTaco> the phone number was syringe.
[23:25] <ater> yeah were good little trolls
[23:26] <AOC> goddam syringe
[23:26] <ater> ugh
[23:26] <timothy> someone post *my* girlfriend's number,
that's OK.
[23:26] <Trollmastah> Honestly, this is fun for us, we would
never intentionally screw with someone like that.
[23:26] <TheReverand> ha
[23:26] <osm> WE get screwed with like that.
[23:26] <CmdrTaco> I just wish you'd do it... less ;)
[23:26] <TheReverand> Well we also wish you would have
posted Natalies Birthday!
[23:26] <CmdrTaco> the thing is that the slashdot moderation
system works really well.
[23:26] <Trollmastah> My wife posted my grlfriends number.
That sucked.
[23:27] <CmdrTaco> fuck natalies birthday.
[23:27] <CmdrTaco> that was retarted.
[23:27] <ater> damn
[23:27] <AOC> son of a bitch!
[23:27] <ater> we have married trolls?
[23:27] <osm> retarted?
[23:27] <osm> what does that mean?
[23:27] <ater> heh
[23:27] ð em/#trolls ducks
[23:27] <TheReverand> lol
[23:27] ð timothy/#trolls says goodnight to you all
[23:27] <ater> cya timothy
[23:27] ùíù timothy [~timothy@cloaked.dialup.mindspring.com]
has left #trolls []
[23:27] <em> night
[23:27] <CmdrTaco> but 25 or so users represent 75% of the
"Brokenness" in it.
[23:27] <osm> later, timothy
[23:27] <AOC> TIMMMMAH!
[23:27] <ater> hm
[23:27] <Trollmastah> Don't fuck with moderation, it does
work well. I say remove the cap. Part of the draw is the
gamesmanship.
[23:27] <em> nah, leave the cap op
[23:27] <em> nah, leave the cap on
[23:28] <TheReverand> Well have you seen the Fantasy Karma
Whore Game?
[23:28] <ater> in fairness id say that the trolls get lumped
with the troublemakers
[23:28] <Trollmastah> Ater, Dude, I'm 41, 4 kids adn a dog.
My life is over.
[23:28] <CmdrTaco> the cap works.
[23:28] <em> rev, you're just self-promoting right? you're
winning it
[23:28] <em> ;)
[23:28] <CmdrTaco> wait till you see the next generation of
anti whoring code ;)
[23:28] <TheReverand> em exactly
[23:28] <ater> i dont think ive seen rev, spiralx, and em do
something wrong
[23:28] <osm> lol, ttm
[23:28] <ater> Trollmastah: holy shit
[23:28] <ater> im just a 17 year old with no life :/
[23:28] <TheReverand> I find it hard to believe thast
everything PB says is so damned insightful
[23:29] <Trollmastah> PB LOL
[23:29] <em> he's user #1020, he's got 4-digit insights ;)
[23:29] <TheReverand> or carnage4life
[23:29] <TheReverand> exactly
[23:29] <ater> heh
[23:29] <TheReverand> it's a game
[23:29] <TheReverand> Hell my astroturfin ass can stay at +2
all the damn time
[23:30] <ater> i found the best way to troll slashdot is to
post anything conservative :)
[23:30] <Trollmastah> It is a game. And trolling is just a
twist. Even the bitchslap was just another volly. Ag good
one too I might add. But it keeps us coming back.
[23:30] <AOC> taco voting for gore should provide some good
material :)
[23:30] <ater> dont vote gore, vote OOG!
[23:30] <Trollmastah> Go OOG go
[23:30] <ater> hellz yeah
[23:31] <ater> OOGs accepting the nomination tomorrow
[23:31] <TheReverand> I hope we don't all wake up
bitchslapped tomorrow morning ;)
[23:31] <Trollmastah> Seriously Rob, Thanks for being so
sporting. We know you get spammed with crap, and we
understand. You've got a cool thing going here.
[23:31] <ater> true
[23:32] <TheReverand> Yeah and feel free to send all flames
you get about us to me
[23:32] <Trollmastah> Where's james Tonight? Changing Jobs
again?
[23:32] <ater> glad youre being a good guy about it
[23:32] <CmdrTaco> I just want you guys to understand
something.
[23:32] <Trollmastah> What?
[23:32] <CmdrTaco> You guys have caused me more shit then
any other thousand slashdot readers.
[23:32] <em> actually, send them to
k22320inchfan@methlab.nothing.org
[23:32] <TheReverand> there you go
[23:32] <CmdrTaco> I'm a human being and you're making my
life shittier.
[23:33] <AOC> there's a thousand trolls?
[23:33] <CmdrTaco> So at least be clever.
[23:33] <TheReverand> no AOC you idiot
[23:33] <CmdrTaco> Don't post fucking lame crap.
[23:33] <ater> if ive caused anything, then my aplogies
[23:33] <CmdrTaco> Don't post so often.
[23:33] <CmdrTaco> 1/2 the trolling, twice the brains.
[23:33] <Trollmastah> Not intended, we don't want to fsck up
you life, again it's just in fun. We'll try to be more
suble.
[23:33] <CmdrTaco> You'd make my life a helluva lot easier.
[23:33] <TheReverand> Hey I never even get up to 50 posts in
my history
[23:33] <ater> all right, but I am going through with oog
for president before i retire him :)
[23:34] <em> I'm in retirement myself...
[23:34] <ater> yeah im too lazy to get 50 posts
[23:34] <TheReverand> same here
[23:34] <CmdrTaco> oog is so lame.
[23:34] <TheReverand> It's more of just a reading kind of
thing now
[23:34] <TheReverand> NOOOOOOO
[23:34] <CmdrTaco> thats the worst of them.
[23:34] <Trollmastah> I only post about twice a week.
Although I used to post a little bit more
[23:34] <CmdrTaco> creativeity of a chimp.
[23:34] <osm> i have a job in the mortgage business, i can't
post as much
[23:34] <ater> heh i agree
[23:34] <CmdrTaco> used to post fucking way to much.
[23:34] <ater> im wondering how the fuck people liked it :/
[23:34] <CmdrTaco> oog is like a poop joke.
[23:34] <CmdrTaco> 3rd graders could do it.
[23:34] <ater> yes
[23:34] <CmdrTaco> thats the lamest kind of troll.
[23:34] <CmdrTaco> its not a troll, its spam.
[23:35] <CmdrTaco> its being a pest just to be a pest.
[23:35] <AOC> but "BREAK HEAD WITH OPENSOURCE CD" is just...
classy
[23:35] <CmdrTaco> *so* lame.
[23:35] <Trollmastah> Just for reference are you interested
in what we actually do for a living?
[23:35] <CmdrTaco> understand that I get email once a week
that says
[23:35] <CmdrTaco> "Accounts like Ooog are proof that
Slashdot doesn't work"
[23:35] <CmdrTaco> think about that when you do lame trolls.
[23:35] <ater> the funny thing is oog got whored up to 70
karma
[23:35] <AOC> andover needs to hire you an email secretary
[23:35] <ater> k
[23:35] <CmdrTaco> "You should ban oogs IP"
[23:36] <Trollmastah> We know the differene between spam and
trolling.
[23:36] <ater> ok fair enough
[23:36] <CmdrTaco> I have a guy who may become my email
secretary.
[23:36] <CmdrTaco> he's gonna be tech support.
[23:36] <CmdrTaco> but he may start reading
malda@slashdot.org
[23:36] <CmdrTaco> that makes me cry.
[23:36] <ater> i wanna do one last thing and then oog's
retiring
[23:36] <Trollmastah> Vote OOG!!
[23:36] <ater> i havent used him in months anyway
[23:36] <CmdrTaco> You fuckers stole my email address.
[23:36] <CmdrTaco> bitches!
[23:36] ð CmdrTaco/#trolls grins.
[23:36] <Trollmastah> Huh?
[23:37] <CmdrTaco> because of crap like you, I can't even
read my own email without help!
[23:37] <TheReverand> heh
[23:37] ð CmdrTaco/#trolls sighs.
[23:37] <AOC> "Trolling makes baby Jesus^H^H^H^H^HRob cry"
[23:37] <CmdrTaco> Jesus does NOT have wheels ralph.
[23:37] <TheReverand> I want Cmdr on the mailing list
[23:37] <osm> yes
[23:37] <osm> join our mailing list, rob
[23:37] <CmdrTaco> enough for tonight.
[23:37] <CmdrTaco> tired.
[23:37] <Trollmastah> Would you participate?
[23:37] <CmdrTaco> 16 hours without a break.
[23:37] <ater> all right, perhaps we could continue this
some other time
[23:38] <CmdrTaco> I don't want to be on another list.
[23:38] <CmdrTaco> to much email already.
[23:38] <osm> we don't want you on it anyway
[23:38] <CmdrTaco> I already have a hundred lines of
filters.
[23:38] <Trollmastah> Agreed. Thanks Rob. And We heard what
you said.
[23:38] <ater> thanks for your time, ill take your advice
into consideration
[23:38] <CmdrTaco> right ;)
[23:38] <CmdrTaco> sure ya will ;)
[23:38] ùíù CmdrTaco [~malda@0.0.0.0] has left #trolls []

Re:after the forum

[Teancom]

This (being the more interesting of the "interviews" by far) has no replies????? wtf? Where are all the people saying that he act's unprofessionaly here? Where are the people accusing cmdrtaco of "colluding" with the enemy? I mean, right there, he tells them to keep trolling!! Sure, he also says to cut their trolls in 1/2, but the point remains. Is it possible because people are starting to realize that Rob is human and needs to be cut a bit of slack just like the rest of us? Or maybe, just maybe, that flaming somebody to hell and gone *doesn't* generally produce the desired result? Come on, people, where's the flames????

Re:after the forum

[Anonymous Coward]

This is going to make me cut down. A lot. I think it's a very good thing that this was posted, osm.

Re:after the forum

[Teancom]

Reread my comment with . In particular, reread the part where I say "he needs to be cut some slack" and "he's a person too". I was just pointing out the fact that it seems very popular to flame rob for his "unprofessionalism" and propose theories that "he likes the trolls cuz it drives page counts, that's why he doesn't change moderation", and that that is stupid beyond belief. Sorry if it came across wrong, but what you said is exactly what I was going for.

Re:after the forum

[Teancom]

for once I didn't preview, and it swallowed my <sarcastic> </sarcastic> tags. oh well

Re:Wow..

[Hemos]

I'm not sure who gave you the impressions that we are ZD-Net, or C|net. We've NEVER EVER said that we are - and never will. I'm biased, and proud of it. We're here so that you can think on your own, and make your own decisions.

And we're also human - so when someone like Sig11 pushes us too far, we respond.

Re:OMFG!

[Hemos]

Uh...since selling your ID is illegal under the DMCA (I don't agree with it, but it is), I doubt it.

Re:Hmmmmm......(Not a troll! I promise.)

[Hemos]

I was a bit tired that night - and distracted. I'm hoping we do it again more often, and we can more sides of things.

Rob and I have different personalties - that's why we work so well together. But Rob also has to deal with more stress of things, so I think that he gets a little more stressed out about things. And he's pretty much always like that.

What I got from the chat

[duncan]

I was there "listening" to what was being said. What I got out of the chat was this:

CmdrTaco and Hemos like doing what they are doing but are sick of getting bashed at every turn. Well while I don't think they should be bashed as much as they are, I see where it comes from. Slashdot has changed from what it started out as. Those that have been around for years have one idea of what Slashdot should be. The new comers have a different idea of what Slashdot is.

So people have a few choices.

1. Make a site to be what you want it to be. If you like the look and feel of Slashdot, use Slashcode. If you don't, make your own.

2. Make suggestions. If they are good and possible, they will be implemented. If they are not implemented, see #1. "taco is a fag" is not a suggestion.

3. Accept what Slashdot is. If you don't like it, no one is forcing you to type http://slashdot.org. Find somewhere else that has what you want or see #1.

4. Don't bash the guys for being succusful. They worked hard for what they got. We helped alot but with them making donations to EFF and the like, I think that is thier payback to us.

Now taking my own advice on #2, I would like to suggest a complaint section on Slashdot. Now the first thing that will happen to it will be abuse. This can be handled by moderation down to -1. Maybe come up with a script to delete 0's and -1's once a week or something, and others after 1 month. That way everone has time to view what is posted there, at whatever moderation level, and we can comment on them. Taco, Hemos and the rest can see what is being said and the arguments for and against. Maybe we can change thier minds on some things.

Duncan

Re:I was kind of frustrated....

[Hemos]

Sorry about that - we tried to help out with people, but the lusers were out of control.

The most depressing thing?

[Evangelion]

...a vote for Nader is a vote for Bush...

For fuck's sake. If you're not going to vote for what you belive in, fine. But then don't be bitching and whine when Al (and Tipper 'protect the children') Gore, not to mention 'Media Violence is Evil' Lieberman turn out to be more opressive than Bush would have been.

By voting for Nader, you stand a chance getting his parties viewpoints discussed. He wasn't allowed in the presidential debate because the Green party didn't yet have a poll rating of 15%. What if they did? Even breaking that, and actually getting him in a debate would do wonders for the political landscape.

To quote Homer, 'Don't blame me, I voted for Kang'.

--

Re:The most depressing thing?

[Trevor Goodchild]

That "A vote for X is a vote for Y" is one of the best headfuck games the politicians have ever laid on people. I am continually amazed at how many people spout it off and think it means something.

A vote for a 3rd party candadite is a VOTE AGAINST A 2 PARTY SYSTEM, and as such it is very meaningful.

Re:The most depressing thing?

[ChopChopMasterOnion]

Wake up and smell the Electoral College coffee.

Re:The most depressing thing?

[cburley]

Wake up and smell the Electoral College coffee.

Tactics vs. strategy, first of all, suggests that while one might vote Bush rather than Harry Browne because one decides this would more likely lead to a less intrusive/oppressive gov't tactically, one might go ahead and vote Browne to implement a longer-term strategy.

Further, the electoral college just changes the specifics of tactics.

For example, I live in Massachusetts. Let's say I'd prefer Harry Browne, or even the Constitutional candidate (whose name I forget), but would (as in the example above) much prefer Bush over Gore.

Now, a close race on a purely national-democracy level would suggest I'd better vote Bush, because my vote might make "the" difference (especially assuming I'm one of many, though obviously a small minority, who holds these beliefs).

But, being in Mass., I could reason this way:

If Massachusetts would go Bush if I voted for Bush, but would go Gore if I voted for Gore, then Bush will win the national election, because Mass. is a state with Democrat leanings. I.e. it's well off the "mound" of the "bell curve" for electoral college votes. Therefore my vote for Bush [or Gore] will not matter, so I might as well vote my "conscience" as well as my strategy.

So it's not black-and-white that one must vote for one of the two parties to get an outcome that reflects an incremental move towards one's ideal, even if that is the practical reality for the nation at this time (i.e. either Gore or Bush will win; nobody else will; or so goes the reasoning).

Oh, and the other thing that bugs me: if you don't vote but are eligible to, you are voting either for the ultimate winner, or, if you'd prefer to think of it this way, the ultimate winner of your local electoral college vote. Please don't think you can escape responsibility for whoever got elected by not voting -- that responsibility was thrust upon you, you chose to sidestep it, just as looking up at a skyscraper and seeing a baby falling towards you makes you responsible such that your simply stepping aside and saying "not my baby, I didn't throw it out the window, therefore [SPLAT!!] I am in no way responsible for its death" does not absolve you of its death.

And, by the way, Mr. Big Non Voter, whoever you might be, voting in the USA is much less risky than catching falling babies. I know! I've done experiments! (I'd post the pics, but my ISP won't let me. ;-)

Re:The most depressing thing?

[Mr. Piccolo]

A vote for Browne is a vote for Microsoft... but I'm voing that way anyway!

Re:Anyone else think this was rigged?

[Hemos]

Dude,

Check your background first - neither Rob and I nor "picked" any of the questions. The question bot moderated, and the Slashnet people moderated it. So, paranoia aside, Rob and I did not "pick" our questions.

Then Write It

[Hemos]

and we'll look at putting it in. Remember - there's one database server. Any sort of suggestions has to be weighed against whether or not it's realistic to actually run it. If it works, then great! But we're kinda occupied getting 2.0 ready...

And no, we can't get another database server right now. Trust me on this.

Re:Then Write It

[_xeno_]

Uh, it would be kinda nice for those of us who would like to try hacking new stuff into Slash to be able to get a beta of 2.0. Release early and release often, remember that? Right now I have serveral things I wanted to see if I could get Slash to do, but I don't want to fool around with 1.0.8 because 2.0 is coming out "soon."

Re:Hmmmmm......(Not a troll! I promise.)

[GigsVT]

Hemos,

Now this is something I would like to see more often. I think you guys that run this site should jump in here and respond every now and then. Of course you shouldn't reply to the obvious flames, but who said that you all can't participate in relevant conversation. After all, you guys are nerds too, probably some of the most up to date nerds in regard to the issues we talk about on here, and the best part is, you all don't give a fuck about your Karma!
-

Hitting the nail on the head

[Tuxedo Mask]

That is a quite accurate summary. Sig11 is a reasonably intelligent guy who happens to have a slightly skewed view of reality.

Sig11's posts really are admired by a great deal of the slashdot crowd. Sig11 misinterprets this. He thinks his karma means he personally is important. What is really means is that his style is acceptable and his opinions appealing to a sizable demographic.

Now, both Taco and Sig11 keep expressing this idea that slashdot somehow "means something" because of its numerous and persistent readership. But what this really means is that a number of people like to gossip, flame, and troll. That's it. As far as maintaining reader goes, all that matters about the stories is that they keep the conversation moving.

So Rob's almost, but not quite right. Karma is not meaningless. But it is worthless. And these is this fearful symmetry between Sig11's karma and the popularity of slashdot itself. A lot of people do read slashdot. Many are obsessed by it. It does mean something. But it is really quite worthless.


Whoa.. I am pretty pretentious myself. Time to abandon structure. Random disjoint comments for the rest of this post.
Rob doesn't want to run a "meta" section, since only he could run it and he doesn't have time. This is why executive structure was invented. Done right, it multiplies a single person's effectiveness tenfold by subordinating tasks. It doesn't mean surrendering all creative control, unless you are a lousy manager. But if he doesn't learn to subordinate tasks to different people, of course he won't have time to do the essential things. What he's doing is really fine for slashdot as it is anyway. People don't mind so much the rules changing on them, retractions being clumsy to nonexistent, a general level of paranoia, and so on. These things are fine for a gossip and flaming site. But no one is going to respect slashdot as a credible source of information or informed discussion so long as these problems exist. But since Taco wants the site to remain his toy, and not run it in a professional manner, it will remain basically as it is. I'm not saying that's wrong. That just happens to be the way it is.

And anyway, gossip and flames are more interesting to people like me than informed and thoughtful discussion could ever be. It got me to write this long-winded crappy post, didn't it?

Re:Hitting the nail on the head

[duffbeer703]

Your point makes alot of sense, except for one problem -- Slashdot groupthink believes that management is for losers, and the perl hacker is the most noble of men.

Taco boy is a product of this group mentality, and will allow his creation to eventually wither and die.

Re:Hitting the nail on the head

[cburley]

You hit the nail on the head! An impression I have is that Signal 11 wrote well and was rewarded for that as much as for anything else, although I don't really know all the ins and outs of /. articles, comments, etc. (I read only the ones that interest me.)

For Signal 11 to believe that his ability to gain tons of karma by posting "with the crowd" means the /. system is broken is to a) mistakenly believe it matters, as if more than 1% of the Internet population could write as well and clearly as he, and b) focus on the wrong system -- it's not /. that's "broken", it's humanity, in the sense that we have yet to build a "meta-system" that individual humans cannot outwit (and I don't mean "isolated humans" -- they're allowed to team up, as individuals, that's the system, man ;-).

As I was explaining to my wife, human nature (especially nerd nature) is that when a system experiences, say, 100,000 "failures" per month as defined by its audience, there'll be a groundswell of sentiment to "modify" it (almost always this complicates, i.e. extends, the system) via a means that everyone agrees will fix 90% or more of the failures, and therefore be "worth it".

Fine, so the extension is made, and now there are only 10,000 failures.

At that point, even if there is no growth, someone like Signal 11 can come along, discern a pattern in those failures, reproduce them as a demonstration of the failures, thereby increasing their frequency...

...and then claim that the extended system is "broken" because it now has 20,000 failures per month, thanks to his poking a sharp stick in the wound, so to speak.

Add the reality that this system is growing, so the failures are now back to 100,000 (in my hypothetical example, if it grew like /.), and that "the people", the audience who applauded the extended system, are now much more sensitive to its failure, so they see the 100,000 failures as indicating a failure of the modified system...

...and you suddenly have a much larger audience consisting of roughly the same percentage of people who claim the system is "broken", could be fixed by this or that tweak, which, lo and behold, is claimed it'd take care of at least 90% of the current failures!

Oh, except now they can blame the previous extension ("moderation is broken" -- yeah, try using /. without it, if possible), since it was someone else who designed and/or implemented it.

Not that there aren't a lot of correct viewpoints or actions taken here, but the big picture is, no "system" ever proposed, other than extermination of the human species, would solve the problem of humans behaving as humans. If it did, humanity would have effectively created a system that enslaved it -- hardly a prospect worth looking forward to.

Believe me, if we can't keep cockroaches, mice, viruses, etc. out of areas inhabited by humans -- all these having highly distinct genetic characteristics, the equivalent of every /. troll voluntarily having a nick that begins "troll_" -- we aren't close to keeping out "unwelcome" human behavior. (And, yes, I believe the ecological concerns regarding handling pests do map pretty well to handling human pests.)

Ultimately /. chose to do what it chose to do (which I don't know enough to say was wise or unwise, other than suggesting CmdrTaco telling Sig11 he was being singled out when he wasn't and calling him an idiot in public was unwise) regarding Sig11 and other peoples' proposals vis-a-vis moderation.

And Sig11 chose to leave, which I can't disagree with (it's his decision), but am sorry I won't see his well-written comments, even if they are designed to proclaim the party line.

Whether I'll bother to go to another forum Sig11 occupies, given the extra time and effort that'd take me, is my decision, ditto for everyone else, of course.

Re:Signal 11 personifies everything that is wrong.

[_xeno_]

Signal 11 personifies everything that is wrong with slashdot. He was the most effective and the most vocal personality for, what I call, the slashdot junior crowd. Everything he said was a targeted populism, designed to strike a cord with this crowd.

Actually, that was the entire point of Signal 11. He created the account, at least according to what he said, to see what would happen if he basically posted toting the party line. I think we all know the end result. In the end, Signal basically showed one problem with the moderation system - it's done by the "elite" Slashdotters.

Moderators are chosen based on karma. According to the IRC log, that's the only reason for karma. The higher your karma, the more likely you can moderate. Think about this for a moment - the people who are most likely to moderate are those who have been moderated up in the past. That means those that follow Signal 11's "groupthink" ideal are more likely to be moderated up. These people are then most likely to moderate up people who agree. The system perpetuates "groupthink." There needs to be a way to allow dissenters to moderate. (Problem with that is that most people who go against the grain wind up being modded down; then again, those that don't are usually the most level-headed, and probably more deserving. The real problem is that it's impossible to distinguish between "disagrees with groupthink" and "is being a troll.")

Personally, I think that everyone should have moderator access, all the time. Everyone can vote on a comment, and the average of all the votes becomes the score. There are enough people reading Slashdot so that the troll moderators would be filtered out. Plus, since one person voting on something would be enough to send it to +5 or whatever, then posts lost in later discussion have a chance to be seen. You can then also elliminate +1 scoring.

There's only one problem with my purposed solution - it'll beat up servers. (Repeatedly doing averages would take a lot of CPU power.) So I dunno.

My hope is that a significant percentage of the audience grows tired of this routine, and demands a more mature discussion....

Unfortunately, that's not going to happen. Slashdot frequently manages to post stories that someone, somewhere, can be emotional about. And when someone emmotional about some topic, he or she isn't as logical, and not as mature. Which is why there even are distro flame wars. If you think about it, that's a pretty dumb thing to get all worked up against.

There will always be losers. There will always be trolls. Some days, I'm a troll. It gets stress out, and allows me to participate in real discussions. We all have our bad days - some people take them out on Slashdot.

Signal 11 doesn't really personify the problems, but he does demonstrate them. With any discussion, there must have those who disagree. Otherwise, it's not really a discussion, it's simply a bunch of people patting their own backs. That's what Signal 11's real point was. I can't think of a real solution to it - but hopefully, someone else can.

164 Questions ?

[Anonymous Coward]

[23:03:26] how many did we answer?
[Crunch]
[23:03:58] <drwiii> grep on a 486 is agony.
[23:04:01] <drwiii> 164.

[kiri:/tmp] fred% grep '<Questions>' Slashdot-05Oct00.txt | wc -l
111

Cheers,

--fred

Re:164 Questions ?

[drwiii]

I know, I know.. I was a quick grep and I miscounted. I was doing some of the question moderating and did a few /lastlog commands on certain keywords during the forum to see if there were any duplicate questions being asked. The /lastlog results wound up being added to my log and, thus, in the quick count as well.

Re:Signal 11 personifies everything that is wrong.

[GigsVT]

It's a real shame too. Although I'm skeptical, if any open system could ever attain real journalistic quality,

And you think that ABC (Disney), CBS (?), and NBC (GE), are "real journalistic quality"?

One thing we have here is truth. Sometimes opinions that are not well thought out get modded up, but oh well. When ABC runs a story that is bullshit, they generally do it for financial gain of one sort or the other. Slashdot of course can run stories that are popular for financial gain, but the posts will refute it if it is BS. That is the great thing about /.

You will never see scaremongering stories about the latest "nightmare drug" on slashdot, because slashdot isn't tied to big corporate interests.

We don't give a fuck about Jon Benet Ramsey, or care much about OJ simpson, and most of the US never gave much of a fuck either. Slashdot gives us stuff we care about, for the most part. Just because there are more Linux stories than you care to see, or maybe you hate Anime, doesn't mean that Slashdot won't eventually cover most of what is important to you.

Here is the bottom line. Have you seen much of anything about Carnivore on any major news outlet? Don't think think this is important to all of our collective futures? Yeah thats right. I thought so. Its a choice, truth or happiness, and I would give up liking everything I see on my news, for a little truth.
-

Worst reply I ever got to a comment

[acumen]

Just for you, I'll say that this is probably the worst reply I ever got to any of my comments. Feel free to (-1) Off Topic, I have *way* enough Karma to spare.

Uncensored for sure.

[arcade]

I was kinda surprised reading the logs. Cmdrtaco sounded a lot more like a scriptkiddie than I really liked. Comments like:

bob_jones_iii is being an annoying prick. can we kill him? someone dos him ;)

Really really disappointed me. Sure, he's got a smiley there, but still. I wouldn't be surprised if someone actually DoS'ed the sucker because "o allmighty Taco told them to".

Also, the "fuckings" , "sucks", the signal_11 bashing, and so forth was kinda surprising. It sure shows that some people act much more freely on IRC, than on web.

On the other hand, I do understand the frustration of someone constantly nagging at you, flaming you, and so forth. I really hope Malda keeps reading his mailbox himself, instead of getting someone else to read it.

Another thing I began thinking about. They don't link to the stories they throw away. There's no recylcle bin we may look in. Personally I would love it if there were some sort of reason when disapproving a story - and that they would be thrown into some bins. If they have, say four throwaway bins. One that is just 'garbage' that noone get to read, and three, like.. 'posted before', 'not interesting enough', and say 'Cool, but not cool enough'. (or whatever categories they want) - then that wouldn't be to prone to abuse.. I think .. (but I don't KNOW :-). As it is more, most of the interesting stuff at slashdot (the most interesting links and so forth) is almost always to be found in the comments. If more of them made the garbage-bins, I think that would be cool :)

Also, the different bins would satisfy the demand for "why the story was rejected" a bit more. If it was trashed into 'garbage' they considered it garbage, and so forth. And, I can't see why this would take ANY more time. I don't know how the slashdot system works, but at the moment, there are two things that can happen. They approve it, or they don't. Two buttons / a menu or whatever. They could just make some more buttons. No need for a comment, and .. wellwell Just an idea. It has probably already been considered.

hmf. this got a bit long, with nothing but mine opionions and stuff. Ohwell :-)


--

CmdrTaco, Hemos and Open Source

[Otter]

[22:48:32] Otter asks: CmdrTaco: If you're so bitter about your experiences opening source, why do you keep leading lynch mobs against Apple, TrollTech, Corel, Be and anyone else who isn't on the /. approved list?

First, I apologize for the bitchiness of the question (I posted it with about 20 minutes left and didn't think it would possibly be asked) and thank Rob for replying graciously.

That said, I thought the most interesting thing about the forum was how unenthusiastic CmdrTaco and Hemos were about the Open Source process as it relates to their own work. It was obvious when they released Slash that they were doing it grudgingly. And it seems clear to me from the forum that:

• They released their code because of pressure and criticism, not out of any sense of moral responsibility.
• They're very much underwhelmed by the power of opening code to improve software. They may have incorporated some patches but they're certainly not saying that Slash was significantly enhanced by outside coders.
• Rob very much resents the criticism he took and it makes him even less enthusiastic about continuing to release code.

Fair enough -- but these guys are the editors of freakin' Slashdot! The site that:

• Insists that releasing code is a moral and business necessity.
• Launches a jihad against Be, Corel, Interix, Compaq and anyone else who accidentally makes the slightest error in distributing code according to its license.
• Berated Apple for its licensing terms without any acknowledgement that it's the one company that has opened code on which it is currently making a profit, not some legacy code they no longer care about.

So what's up? And I don't get their response that the people who complain aren't the ones who code. Well, yeah. And isn't that more reason not to keep sending an army of screaming wannabes after the target of the day? And for that matter, isn't Slashdot's image based on the premise that the nitwits shirieking, "KDE developers are CRIMINALS! They're enemies of free software!" are in fact Geeks and Members Of The Community?

Rob -- again, if angry mobs of loudmouths don't encourage you to keep participating as a free software developer, what makes you think KDE, Darwin, Be developers don't respond the same way?

Re:CmdrTaco, Hemos and Open Source

[Teancom]

Before I answer your question, I would like to ask one: where had slashdot *ever* "released a jihad" on a closed-source company for not opening their source? Before you start spluttering and calling me an idiot (not that you wouldn't be right) let me clarify: the position I think /. (as in the editors, they have no control over the comments) projects is this: open source projects are really good; closed-source projects have their place; companies who release "open source" projects under non-DFSG licenses for the express purpose of getting a few free bug-checkers and controlling a segment of the market *cough* sun *cough* suck; projects that choose licenses that conflict in subtle and not-so-subtle ways with the GPL and BSD licenses thus making it hard on distrobutions to include them, suck. I have *never* seen a post by a /. editor that says anything even *close* to "BeOS sucks cuz it's closed source", let alone "everyone flame Be 'till they give up and GPL everything, d00d". I am using BeOS as an example because that's what I use on a daily basis for my workstation, and I always pay more attention to Be stories. Even with KDE, the *main* problem has always been that a major open source project was being based on software that was under control of one company, under terms that make distributing binaries of that project *illegal*. The push to open-source QT was made because that was the easiest way to resolve the issue for good.

p.s. sorry if this rant comes out wrong. 1) I'm sick and on some pretty good cold medicine and 2) I'm tired and I get cranky when people don't make the distinction between /.-the-editors and /.-the-posters. Blaming the editors for all the looser script kiddies that hang around would be like blaming them for OOG or TrollMastah (both of whom I respect, btw). OOG for being funny and TrollMastah for actually making sense (some of the time).

p.p.s My spelling really sucks. deal with it.

Re:CmdrTaco, Hemos and Open Source

[cburley]

There's a difference between "opening" /. and the other examples you describe.

/. isn't distributing its software as binaries to others.

The other cases, software is being distributed, so withholding source can have negative consequences for the recipients. (Also, you mention cases where license violations are occurring -- that's a matter of legality and honoring the ethical and societal concerns of our society. I don't see /. violating those by not releasing the code for its web site per se.)

In other words, your business or home doesn't get "burned" because of bugs in /. -- /. gets burned, you might get inconvenienced, but the nature of /. is such that you don't lose big.

Before worrying about /. opening the source for its web site (which, strictly speaking, it has not done, I gather, although it's released earlier versions of it), I'd worry about E*Trade, Ameritrade, Schwab, banks, online retail outlets, etc. opening up the source code for their web sites...

...because bugs in those sites are much more likely to hurt users of those sites than is the case for /..

Think of it this way. If you use a combination of scripts you've hacked together to cope with and respond to various sorts of emails (such as detecting and responding to spam), that set of scripts is not much different, conceptually, from the code that runs /. -- sure, it's behavior (just like your own behavior) is "visible" to others, but the code itself isn't distributed to others in any form, certainly not in an obfuscated form (a general class of which binary executables, as a form, are an instance).

Should you therefore feel morally required to open it up?

I say not necessarily, unless you're convincing others to depend on the correct operation of your scripts for their business or personal use, and bugs in your implementation (or your going out of business, going down for a week, etc.) would seriously impinge on their ability to continue crucial aspects of their operation.

Remember, OSS is not a magic bullet for developers. It is only so for end users of software, who can do things with source they couldn't do without it, but not vice versa.

Since /. end users don't receive software, they aren't even in the "target zone" of the GPL. And since they can't (as a class) be said to "depend" on /. correctly operating, their status as end users is less critical than users of web sites that invite users to place substantially sensitive or critical information on those sites.

And since packaging up and distributing software as OSS is a significant undertaking beyond writing and deploying it in-house (there are plenty of legal and other ramifications of taking such a step)...

...I just don't see it as a black-and-white case of hypocrisy that /. doesn't constantly distribute the exact software it's running while it (as a forum, generally) advocates nearly exactly that for software distributed in binary form, such as Microsoft's offerings.

Still, I think it'd be great if /. distributed exactly what it was running, especially if that could be done easily (and making distributing OSS, dealing with patches, etc. "easy" is something of a holy grail for me).

Re:CmdrTaco, Hemos and Open Source

[Otter]

Regarding license violations: I wasn't suggesting that Slashdot has violated anyone's license. But the cases I mentioned all involved companies who were clearly trying to comply with the relevant license (in Compaq's case, it was their own code) and made an innocent error in putting files on a server or in wording a web page. That deserves an email pointing out a problem, not a full-blown call to arms. Given Rob's own frustration with angry letters, and how it's affected his feelings towards distributing his software, I'm surprised he's so unsympathetic towards the others he sics his mob on.

As for the distinction between back-end scripts and binaries, I see what you're saying. But Slashdot consistently advocates the idea that open development is the best way to produce quality code of any type. And yet the bosses clearly had little interest in having "The Community" tweak their code and it sounds like their low expectations have been confirmed. If you read the forum, it sounds like they're describing Slash as a cathedral, not a bazaar. It's that mismatch that I find hypocritical.

Re:CmdrTaco, Hemos and Open Source

[Otter]

The reference to Be wasn't about the OS, it was about the incident where they forgot to include the source for ElectricFence with the rest of the sources for the GPL apps they ship. Bruce Perens and the Slashdot editors called everyone to battle stations before anyone thought to send a polite email to Be asking them to fix it. The other companies listed in that line had similar experiences.

As far as distinguishing between the actions of the editors and the readers: of course, I don't blame the editors for every stupid comment from a reader. But when Compaq voluntarily releases their software under the GPL and a web developer forgets to remove the standard license from the download page and Slashdot posts an article claiming that Compaq is redistributing Linux kernel code under a proprietary license without even looking at the page in question -- yes, I think the editors know full well the response that will generate and are responsible for it.

Re:CmdrTaco, Hemos and Open Source

[cburley]

You're right, everyone, including /. folk, should exercise a little more Golden Rule -- if you don't like having your mistakes publically aired before you're privately informed of, and given an opportunity to correct, them, don't publically air other peoples' problems before pointing them out in private!

As far as /. advocating the idea that OSS is the best way to produce quality code of any type, I'm not sure I see that notion being forwarded by the /. creators/editors per se, but it's one with which I disagree in a very persnickety way.

OSS doesn't ensure quality. It does allow a wider audience to participate in vetting and improving its quality than would be able to otherwise.

That's often simplified to "OSS == quality code", but that simplification is so easily shown to be wrong without even resorting to examples (e.g. one could create a bot that continuously grabs OSS software from the net, introduces random bugs into it, and distributes it, thus assuredly lowering the overall quality of all OSS software) that I like to think most thoughtful people see through the hype-like statement to the truth of the matter.

I'd prefer people say "OSS gives the end user more control over the quality of the software than any other distribution mechanism".

And note that'd go for /. too, since "no distribution" (or "only occasional distribution of what we were running a month ago", if you like) counts as "any other distribution mechanism".

Argued that way, it becomes more pertinent that /. considers whether its end users need that degree of control over the quality, and compares that to the "pain" of keeping up-to-date with OSS releases of its site's software.

And as far as cathedral vs. bazaar, that represents a continuum within the overall OSS model. I took a very strong cathedral approach to g77, which helped in many ways (especially initially, when I had basically no choice), but hurt in many others.

In the long run, the areas in which g77 could be easily hacked by outsiders were those in which it was usefully hacked to provide new features, fix bugs, etc.

But the poorer aspects of its design and architecture (and maybe the fact that some of these areas, e.g. lexing/parsing Fortran, are just plain hard) meant that there was precious little utility in having those chunks of code available as source, other than making it easier for others to compile and port, and for me to distribute along with the source to the rest of the front end (and, later, compiler as a whole, via the EGCS project).

My point is that the utility of opening up slashcode depends not only on the interest level in the code itself (which I'd guess is higher than that for g77) but on the hackability of that code -- the ability for people to learn, review, and modify small sections of code without having to learn how the whole thing works.

My impression, having not looked at /. code at all but only at discussions of it, is that even its authors recognize that it isn't architected to be easy for outsiders to hack as "quickie" projects.

That lowers the benefits of opening it up.

In the end, though, I do think not opening it up is worse for /. as well as the community, which is why I get the impression they're working towards opening it up more rather than less, sooner rather than later, I did not have sex with that woman, ... wait, got off track there....

Anyway, the bazaar model for OSS development, to date, has struck me as a nice ideal that's hard to really achieve in a way that's anywhere near as efficient, for a programmer like myself, as is being an "insider" in a cathedral-model project, for many sorts of projects.

I mean, if you could see some of the vast changes I made to g77 over the years, including during its "alpha test" period as well as before it ever saw the light of day, you'd probably see why it'd be so much harder for me to have made those sweeping changes while having to check in and out modules, notify other developers that major things were changing, etc.

So, cathedral-style development has its necessities. It's the projects that are well-architected up front, and have decent tools in place to support bazaar-style development, that benefit most from them.

g77 wasn't as good an example of that as it could have been (by a longshot). If /code isn't either, they might be making the right decision for now, and I'd be very hesitant to call them "hypocritical" without seeing some very clear statements from them indicating they really believe others should distribute code for their "entertainment" web sites even if it's convoluted or whatever.

Accusations of hypocrisy are very strong ones to make, and should thus be made only when very clear evidence illustrated the hypocrisy can be provided. Again, it's a matter of applying the Golden Rule.

Re:CmdrTaco, Hemos and Open Source

[Teancom]

Heh. I had forgotten about that. Well, yes. You are right. Those were pretty stupid examples of demagogourey (told you my spelling sucks). I retract any and all objections I had to you lamblasting the editors. Fire away :-)

ps. i and i are going to sleep now. down with babylon. cold medicine is cool. peace, out

Re:CmdrTaco, Hemos and Open Source

[swb]

I wonder if there isn't some desire to see Slashdot the site more "community controlled" -- ie, an "Open Sourced" web site that anyone could make contributions to. Making changes and even getting them accepted to the code base of Slashcode doesn't quite accomplish changing the way that Slashdot the site works.

I think a lot of people see Slashdot as not the hobby/occupation of Taco and Hemos, but as a community resource that ought to be more open to community control.

Unfortunately that's not going to happen, partly because you're not managing the direct cause-effect relationship of code to output, you're managing the highly diffuse cause-effect relationship of user to code.

And also because Taco and Hemos have so much of themselves tied up with the site that it can't ever happen.

Personally I'd like to see a 1 through 5 scoring of articles. I think this would help immensely -- the editors could focus on stories that were popular, which I think would keep trolls and others bored interested in the reading not the trolling.

Balance

[FallLine]

And you think that ABC (Disney), CBS (?), and NBC (GE), are "real journalistic quality"?

Well, yes and no. First, let me be clear, those 3 are basically bottom of the barrel, despite their broad appeal. Second, I think most of the stories they run are sensationalistic crap, but in a much different way than slashdot is. It lacks a particular skew, and instead simply aims a large swath of people in with some common themes. ...In short, I have many complaints about them too.

I regard The Economist as being a good example of journalism. They may not be entirely without bias, and they're certainly not perfect, but they're willing to ask tough and important questions. They critize both sides, and they're evidently willing to call a spade a spade. It is my opinion that this kind of "discussion" offers real benefit to society, if nothing else because it eliminates radicalism and better informs society. A better informed society is better able to legislate effectively.

You will never see scaremongering stories about the latest "nightmare drug" on slashdot, because slashdot isn't tied to big corporate interests.

So because they're not tied to a "big corporate" interest they can't be manipulative? That is foolish, I think the results show otherwise. Instead of "big", they're "small". Instead of "nightmare drugs" that scare the mainstream, they publish the "nightmare patent", or what have you, that scares this particular niche audience (i.e., geeks). At best, they're the flipside of the coin. At worst, they thrive, as I suggested, on lots of shouting and screaming as a result of their "articles".

We don't give a fuck about Jon Benet Ramsey, or care much about OJ simpson, and most of the US never gave much of a fuck either. Slashdot gives us stuff we care about, for the most part. Just because there are more Linux stories than you care to see, or maybe you hate Anime, doesn't mean that Slashdot won't eventually cover most of what is important to you.

Though I conceed Linux isn't foremost of my concerns, even towards that end it fails to produce anything meaningfull. If you claim it is "linux" that you are interested in, then you want not only "linux" articles, you want articles that drive at the truth, not irrationality, invective, dogma, etc. It all leads to a misdirection of resources and energy that is better spend elsewhere.

Here is the bottom line. Have you seen much of anything about Carnivore on any major news outlet? Don't think think this is important to all of our collective futures? Yeah thats right. I thought so. Its a choice, truth or happiness, and I would give up liking everything I see on my news, for a little truth.

Actually I have. I listened to NPR discussing it just the other day. In fact, they provided a much more balanced take on the matter than any visible comment on slashdot. For instance, they pointed out that while it was true that one particular lawyer on the Carnivore review team once worked for the government, he also, even more recently, had sued the government multiple times, and wrote hostile articles against the same hand that supposedly feeds him. That's the verifiable truth. Ok, so you can argue that maybe they're biased, but why couldn't slashdot bring this point up? It is more truthful to not include such facts? I don't think so. All I heard on slashdot was paranoia and rage. What significant end does that accomplish other then titillate slashdot geeks?

The bottom line:
A) Rarely ever is there balance in any of slashdot's upwardly moderated comments. It's pretty much exclusively popularistic crap.
B) Slashdot could do a lot better, yet they don't...

Re:Balance

[GigsVT]

Actually I have. I listened to NPR discussing it just the other day. In fact, they provided a much more balanced take on the matter than any visible comment on slashdot.

NPR is great. But it isn't a major news outlet. It may have the highest percentage of intelligent listeners, but it isn't where most get their news.
-

Slashdot broken? Wha...?

[MrProgrammer]

I've been hearing a lot of people say that they think Slashdot is broken in one way or another. I am relatively new to Slashdot, timewise, but I do read almost every story. I don't post a whole lot, just read the comments. I browse at +1. And I almost never see a troll comment.

I'm not trying to say moderation is perfect, but it is relatively easy to view the well thought out posts and not the garbage.

I've also seen posts moderated up both in favor of MS and against it. I just don't see the groupthink.

I really enjoy Slashdot. Sure, there is probably more that can be done to improve it, but I think that Rob and Co. have done a great job.

Re:Signal 11 personifies everything that is wrong.

[levendis]

Moderators are chosen based on karma. According to the IRC log, that's the only reason for karma. The higher your karma, the more likely you can moderate. Think about this for a moment - the people who are most likely to moderate are those who have been moderated up in the past. That means those that follow Signal 11's "groupthink" ideal are more likely to be moderated up. These people are then most likely to moderate up people who agree

I see your point here, but the flip side of the coin is that people who get moderated up consistently are clearly contributing something to slashdot. Joe Average Lurker, who read /. religiously but never posts, may be a great moderator but how is the system ever supposed to know that? Perhaps tracking how often a given user reads each page (how often they drill down into discussions, etc) would be a nice way to do this.

Personally, I think that everyone should have moderator access, all the time. Everyone can vote on a comment, and the average of all the votes becomes the score. There are enough people reading Slashdot so that the troll moderators would be filtered out.

I doubt that.. some troll(s) would just abuse the hell out of that too (how hard would it be to write a script to autmatically moderate up every post that was previously modded down?).
----

Re:Signal 11 personifies everything that is wrong.

[Tuxedo Mask]

"Repeatedly doing averages" does not take a lot of CPU power.

One way to do it is to store n, the number of people moderating the comment, and S, the sum of the assessed scores contributed by moderators. When a new moderator comes along and gives the post a score of A, you increment n->n+1, S->S+A. The average is S/n.

Another way is to store a histogram. This is a vector A[i], i=1..5 When a person gives the post a score s, you take A[s]++, and take a weighted average of A[i].

CPU use is trivial either way. It only gets expensive if everyone moderates. Then the expensive part is the database. Since everyone will be moderating, you presumably need to record for each person which posts have already been moderated.

I repeat: doing averages is trivial. Letting everyone moderate may not be, but that is an entirely separate matter.


I believe the real reason Rob does not seriously consider doing averages is because the sheer volume of email he would get bitching and moaning about the changes. I sympathise with him about that, and I actually think it is a good and valid reason not to change moderation in that way.

However, to claim that it is that much harder to compute a running average than to increment a number is incredibly ignorant. Either operation pales in comparison to the cost of a single database query.

Re:Signal 11 personifies everything that is wrong.

[MrBogus]

I believe the real reason Rob does not seriously consider doing averages

The big problem with an averaging system is that it makes the job of moderating much more complicated and less fun. Under Slashdot's system, it's pure instinct - good +1 , bad -1.

Compare this to kuro5hin, where the burden is on you to decide if a particular post is a "5" or "4" or a "3". Was a post unfaily rated at "3.62", so should you try to push the average up to "4.03"? Boring. You would have to be seriously anal about your webboard experience to get involved in that morass. I like reading there but I couldn't be bothered to moderate. Besides, if Slashdot had that system, 99% of moderators would vote either "1" or "5", and it would work out to the about the same thing anyway.

Moderation is not supposed to be some objective ranking of posts. It's just a rough mechanism that allows readers to tune the S/N ratio. There is no such thing as a post ranked at 3 that should have been ranked at 4 or 5. There is no such thing as a 5 post that should have been a 3 (some should be -1 Troll though). Worrying about these things is pretty uptight.

(Which is not to say there aren't some things that couldn't be tuned. Certain good AC posts never get moderated up and don't get archived. People also blow their mod points too early on a thread and get bitten by trolls.)

Re:Signal 11 personifies everything that is wrong.

[pingflood]

The big problem with an averaging system is that it makes the job of moderating much more complicated and less fun. Under Slashdot's system, it's pure instinct - good +1 , bad -1.

INSIGHTFUL -- GOOD!
FLAMEBAIT -- BAD!

Re:Signal 11 personifies everything that is wrong.

[_xeno_]

But doing averages on a system that's receiving over 100,000 pageviews a day isn't. That's the problem - it's adding in several extra steps, that'll increase the load on an already burdened system.

The current system works by reducing the burden by allowing only a few to moderate, and preventing people from posting more often than once a minute.

Adding another level (and by repeatedly doing averages, I was counting ALL the load, including the load of getting the numbers off the DB, the fact that Slashdot would then need something capable of transactions since people attempting to do this at the same time is much more likely, and all the other fun things that come into play when the system must scale to Slashdot sizes) you greatly increase what the server is doing. There's still a massive amount of load simply because Slashdot is incredibly dynamic. Simply put, it's easier for me to say "ooo, that should be 5" and so I could do it much more often than I could post a comment. Allowing everyone to moderate would greatly increase the load, simply because most of the system time would be doing the average - pulling the score from the table, doing the math, putting it back. Then you'd have to keep track of who did what - ugh.

Besides, I can bring a system to a near halt if all it's doing is repeatedly computing an average. It won't be able to do anything useful! Try running while(1) { } for a while - it'll take up all your CPU, but it's not doing anything useful! The act of doing one average may be small, but the act of doing it over and over and over and over again isn't.

That's why moderators get 5 points - it greatly reduces the amount of crap the system must worry about. Slashdot's moderation scheme isn't the way it is simply to remove trolls - it also takes load into account.

Adding my moderation scheme just wouldn't scale. So it's not really a solution. As pointed out in the IRC logs, Kuro5hin's solution also won't scale. But it's a nice thought. That's one of the reason Slashdot uses the current system - it scales rather nicely.

Re:Signal 11 personifies everything that is wrong.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Yeah, I don't think averages are any better (or worse) than the slashdot increment style. I'm just appalled when someone suggests that computing an average is technically difficult. Apparently CmdrTaco said something like that in the irc log.

Anyway, maybe moderation is not supposed to be an objective ranking, but it is a very visible ranking, and directly influences the way people read and post. If it's job is to limit spam and extremely insulting remarks, it has done a good job.

I don't think it promotes intelligent discussion (whatever that may be), but I think to have that requires a certain amount of elitism and censorship. And who really wants to read intelligent discussion anyway?

Re:Signal 11 personifies everything that is wrong.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Shit, I used the wrong form of "its."

Ok, now I'm quitting slashdot for good. My brain has been damaged enough.

What is the Slashdot Cruiser?

[Sloppy]

Sometimes I've seen references to it in posts, but I thought it was just a troll invention, like the penis bird. Now I see that it's really a Slashdot Marketing(?) thing. What is it?

---

Re:What is the Slashdot Cruiser?

[Mr. Piccolo]

Watch the banner ads sometimes.

It's the biggest waste of sheet metal since the Pikachu Beetle.

Re:What is the Slashdot Cruiser?

[Osty]

banner ads? What are those? Oh, you must mean that blank rectangle above the actual content. Gotta love squid and adzap!

Re:What is the Slashdot Cruiser?

[FSK]

The Slashdot cruiser is much worse then a Pikachu Beetle.

Re:What is the Slashdot Cruiser?

[Sloppy]

Ah, that's why I missed it. Squid and SleezeBall, here. :-)
---

Find something better to worry about

[suitcase]

All I wanna do is read interesting comments on cool stories. I don't give a shit about a poster's reputation, karma, +1 bonus, or whatever else it is you guys worry about. Just read the fucking story and enjoy the extra information you get from the comments.

Re:Signal 11 personifies everything that is wrong.

[MrBogus]

Not like I'd notice.

I was arguing against the idea of averaging because it would generate complaints -- I think Taco has thought it through a little more than that. Don't quit BTW -- your take on Sig11 and moderation/karma is pretty much right on as far as I'm concerned. Far too many people here who take this stuff far too seriously.

I Was Unfairly Banned from #Forum

[Cheshire Cat]

I got a +b for changing my nick from HotGrits to CMDR_TACO_SMELLS_LIKE_FEET. Unfair, I say! Unfair!

Is what he did so different from real life?

[drsoran]

Sure, if you believe his explanation, he did it as an experiment. He posted comments that he knew were specifically targeted at the "group" mindset around here and that would be moderated up. He did a masterful job of it too. If he hadn't been doing it as an experiment on why the moderation system is broken then no one would have complained now would they? He would have been touted as the ideal slashdot reader and held in very high esteem for his intellect and knowledge of the topic at hand.

Isn't this what people do in high school? Whether you believe in what the people there do or say or not, you generally have to spout the popular line or you get blacklisted by the social elite of the community. When you say what the group wants you to hear you become popular and well-liked. When you dare to be different and post messages that the group don't like, you are derided and moderated down. Slashdot is exactly like high school, only instead of the jocks and cheerleaders being the popular sheep, you have blind linux advocates, anti-Microsoft people, and generally young liberal minded people.

Essentially Slashdot is what comp.os.linux.advocacy was becoming when it began to go downhill 4-5 years ago. Once the newbies and the flamers started coming in and doing nothing but bash Microsoft, you either had to tow the party line or get flamed yourself for daring to be different in your opinions.
So, go ahead.. moderate me down for "flamebait" or "troll". I couldn't care less. I like Slashdot and I like the articles, but the constant bantering and bitching and the poor moderation have soured my view of it.

Re:Is what he did so different from real life?

[substrate]

Well stated. One thing that hasn't been really stated before is that what he did was a hack. It was a social-engineering hack. Not only that, but on top of everything he revealed what he did and offered fixes. Maybe the fixes were hogwash, I can't comment on that. But by revealing the how's of what he did he fit into the definition of a 'white-hat hacker'. Yet he's still ostricized - by the same people who would would come down hard on CmdrTaco and co. if they ostricized a white-hat hacker who intruded on their systems.

In fact recently somebody did expose a back door in the slashdot code, rather than vilifying the persons responsible they referred to them as "good guys".

Re:Anyone else think this was rigged?

[drdink]

As Hemos states in a comment further down, the Slashdot crew had no selection over the questions that they were presented. The best they could do was say "ask a real question, next." There were hundreds of questiosn being submitted, and there were two to three (depending on the time) people going through them trying to weed out spam and duplicates. You can not expect the outcome to be perfect, as that is not a perfect way to do such things. We are working on newer and better ways to filter the queue of questions, but until then this is what we have. The goal was to get questions that would have more than a 'yes' or 'no' answer and would promote further talking from the guests. Similar and duplicate questions were deleted, as were spam. You have to remember that 'spam' is based on somebody's point of view. What one thinks of as spam, another might not. There were three people managing the queue, and they could have considered something spam that you would not.

Not any more

[Skim123]

Bascially [CmdrTaco] can do whatever the fuck he wants

Before Andover.net bought them out, I'd agree with you, but now CmdrTaco's words are representing that of a company's. While CmdrTaco may not think so, imagine if he started posting blatantly racist or sexist articles on slashdot, offending many. How do you think those advertisers that pay to be on /. would feel? I don't know the specifics of CmdrTaco's contract with Andover.net, but I assume he is an employee, and could be fired in such a case.

Re:irrationality

[Karmageddon]

karma doesn't matter

I feel like the kid in the Emperor's New Clothes, or Gallileo on the way out of the Inquisition:

"...but, karma does matter.

beyond that it really matters for the +1 bonus or the right to moderate, it's nice to have people say "good job". Did you ever have an employee? You need to reward them for doing good work. Did you ever have a girl or boy friend? You need to say nice things to them. I'm not taking Siggy's side, but Hemos and Cmdr Taco are Pure-D wrong:

Karma is fun to get and worth striving for. Karma matters.

No.

[Trespass]

No matter how cool Linux is, it doesn't make the users any cooler.

Re:Anyone else think this was rigged?

[drdink]

[10/05/00 @ 22:03:58] [new/912] what irc client ya using now? (nd)
Actually, there were 912 questions submitted to the queue.
That is just shy of 1000. There were 111 that made it through.

I had no idea.

[ndnet]

I had no idea. Sorry if I seemed Pagan or such there.

The worst part is it came to politics. Just one manipulator trying to get mass support. Is there anywhere that's safe? I guess that's the problem with moderation; you can block everything, block nothing, or play favorites.

I admit that it was a bit offtopic, but I didn't know. It wasn't in the Slashdot FAQ last time I checked.

Re:shutup

[King of the World]

keh?

Re:Big WOW!

[Beg4Mercy]

Actually, I love hearing CmdrTaco talk :)

Re:Signal 11 personifies everything that is wrong.

[FallLine]

Just feel like spatting off a few comments off the hip for some reason now...

First, i'm a little skeptical that proving this "groupthink" theory right was his real motivation. Put simply, I find it difficult to believe that a reasonably intelligent person (which I believe Signal 11 probably is) would beat a dead horse like that. He just did it way too often, and it consumed way too much of his time to be some sort of casual theory. I believe, perhaps unfairly, that he truely believed most of the things he posted. At some point, and in some instances, I'm sure he tweaked his comments and added on, what I would call, "slashdot wings" i.e., key words or phrases designed to grab slashdot's attention.

Perhaps Signal 11 got bored with it at some point, or perhaps he simply realized it was ruining his life, or perhaps he simply couldn't handle losing his karma. In any event, I think his basic summary of "groupthink", what I've been complaining about for a long time, is right.

Slashdot's moderation system is basically broken. CmdrTaco knows that. Signal 11 knows that. You know that, and I certainly know that. The problem is, as I mentioned in my previos comment, slashdot is effectively incentivized to be anything but be professional.

Though I suppose it is fine if a couple people want to gather on the internet and bitch and wax ecstatic. But if so, they should name it appropriately. "Arguments for Zealots", "Whines for Idiots", or something to that effect, would be a more appropriate name if Slashdot wishes to wash their hands of any and all responsibility under the name of being casual. When they command as much attention as they do, I think they should expect increased criticism. Especially when the popular direction of this forum is often libelous. It's funny how quickly slashdot will lash out at any other news source for being biased, unfair, or inaccurate. They're hypocritical at best....

In terms of solutions. I certainly think there are many improvements that could be made to slashdot for any particular objective. Certainly your idea would not be that taxing of their existing hardware. I could easily code such a thing into a number of DBs...even MySQL. Compared to the load due to bad design (an entirely seperate complaint) with MySQL and/or their use of perl, it's quite trivial.

...anyways, my complaint isn't so much the trolls and spammer types, as it is slashdot's own tendencies. it seems as if not only is their central code inadequate, but they _intentionally_ promote and "publish" material that they know to be inflammatory and meaningless.

...though I'm skeptical of the "perfect" moderation system, slashdot could do a lot to balance things out without a great deal of energy. Also, I'm working on a few ideas myself, hopefully i'll make time to code them out once i've decided on the exact structure of the system. One conclusion that I've drawn though, is to intentionally not try to be slashdot-like. I'm aiming for somethinger larger, and hopefully more sustainable that to be a bunch of peoples' instantaneous gratification for a couple years. Though this hyperactive reloading thing may be a thrill for some people, it only detracts from the quality of the material and the tone of the crowd. My goal is to create something that in the upper end vaguely nears the quality of magazines such as the Economist, but provide lower barriers to entry... This does not mean that any and everyone would have open access to high visibility, that's obviously an impossibility. Rather, I mean allow people to cut their teeth first. Give everyone a chance to be heard. And collect the benefits on reaping on a truely diverse pool of writers that are interacting directly with one another. I also realize that at least half the trick to such a forum could not be done exclusively in code, but in "training" the crowd if you will. There will always be human factor....but enough for now. good night

/END BLURB

Re:Slashcode

[_xeno_]

Nope. Because there's a huge difference between multiple reads, and multiple writes.

I really should have gone into that originally, but left it out. My bad. First of all, a lot of Slashdot is cached - the front page is cached, and most of the articles are cached. If you ever run Slash, you'll have to start "slashd," the Slash daemon that basically proves that Rob doesn't know what cron is for :). Actually, slashd is a better solution, but basically it periodically creates new cached copies.

The other thing is your database server. It'll cache whatever it can. If 10,000 people want to read the stories, it'll cache the realitive rows/columns in memory so that it can return them faster. Plus, you can do multiple reads on multiple threads.

It's the classic reader/writer synchronization problem - where you can have any number of readers looking at the data, but those writers must go through one at a time. So, one pageview can be done during another pageview, but as soon as someone moderates, or posts a comment, everyone else has to wait for them to finish. Imagine this takes 1 millisecond to update a moderation, including CPU time. Multiply by 10 comments moderated, 100 page views, and you're up to 1 second, not counting anything else the system is doing. I'm not sure how fast Slashdot's database server can go, but many many table updates will definately slow it down. (And since MySQL doesn't support transactions, it increases the chance of two processes clobbering each other.)

I'm not exactly sure how well Slashdot scales, but keep in mind, writing data is harder than reading data, simply because multiple people can read data at the same time. They have to take a turn when they wish to write.

Signal to noise

[ichimunki]

Okay. I still don't follow what Sig11 actually proved, by posting things that people will like he proved that people will moderate them up? Isn't that a bit like proving the assumption? Where is the conclusion, I mean, thanks for the evidence to support the obvious: people will say they like things that they like. If Sig11's point is different than that, please let me know. Otherwise the whole "engineering" thing is a lot of noise.

Furthermore, and far more importantly, I think the Slashdot Cruiser is an awesome machine! I love those PT Cruisers. They are great economy cars, semi-stylish with lots of interior action. So leave the marketroids alone! The only mistake they made was not understanding how doing something pop-culturish like the Slashdot Cruiser would just upset the geeks.

Re:Hmmmmm......(Not a troll! I promise.)

[Karmageddon]

I'm posting this Anonymously, because I don't feel like being labelled as someone who hates the Slashdot people.

now, from reading the transcript of that session, do you think that they don't keep track of IP addresses or look at the logs when the mood strikes them? unless you DHCP or proxy with a significant number of other slashdotters, they'll know who you are if they want. Who knows, they may have it automated by now.

That's not the end of the world, of course, they do a pretty good job of letting the 1000 flowers blossom, but I doubt they do it anonymously. Otherwise, Signal 11 could get away by just changing his name.

Re:Wow..

[Karmageddon]

I'm biased, and proud of it ... And we're also human - so when someone like Sig11 pushes us too far, we respond.

Actually, you are missing what I think is the point of the criticism. There's nothing wrong with bias, opinion, emotion, etc. To many of us reading that log, the problem is that you guys were surprisingly lacking in wit/taste/cleverness... the criticisms of Signal 11 were artless and not illuminating. Nobody's saying that you ever claimed otherwise, but with Slashdot you've created a somewhat enchanting "Oz" (at least by internet standards) and it's as shocking to us as if the curtain were pulled back at the end, and the Three Stooges were exposed instead of the Wizard.

You can tone that down a bit, the analogy was exaggerated. I'm not trying to be insulting, just trying to put the right spin on the criticism to make the point that hasn't been made yet.

A couple points...

[FallLine]

mistakenly believe it matters, as if more than 1% of the Internet population could write as well and clearly as he...

This may well be true, but what does that really mean? Ok, so only 1% of internet users are decent writers, and maybe only .005% are good writers. That's still a couple thousand that _could_ write meaningfull stuff. Instead, we almost always have a few people with nominal skill at bating slashdot's sycophants.

b) focus on the wrong system -- it's not /. that's "broken", it's humanity, in the sense that we have yet to build a "meta-system" that individual humans cannot outwit (and I don't mean "isolated humans" -- they're allowed to team up, as individuals, that's the system, man ;-).

I both agree, and disagree, with this statement. There is a world of difference between creating a system that is _impossible_ to exploit, and creating one that at least encourages quality some reasonable percentage of the time. Slashdot's system, conversely, apparently aims to do the exact opposite. They incite riot. They award zealots with karma. And they refuse to call anyone within the so-called 'groupthink' on anything.

Frankly, I think active conspiracies amongst groups of individuals are the least of slashdot's problems. Rather, it's the totalility of the entire system that allows people like Signal 11 to flourish.

A few qualities/suggestions off the hip:

a) Slashdot awards quantity, not quality. It awards haste, not well thought out comments. People who have this refresh bug, naturally are the most likely ones to post first to articles. And people who post earlier than others (even in the space of a few minutes) get the most visibility. Thus they get upwardly moderated first. To add to this problem, slashdot's moderation system is so trivial and small, that they're leveraged even more. Because it only takes a differential of 3 positive moderations to put you at the top, these same articles, generally the most inflamatory ones remain near the top, soak up most of the mindshare, and recieve the most comments.

b) Slashdot's "editorial" staff, if you could call it that, all comes from one tightly clustered mindset that "just happens" to agree with groupthink. Either they shaped groupthink, or they set out to cultivate groupthink. In either case, it's not balanced. It's, at best, suboptimal for productive conversation when the tone is set with a shreik to begin with, especially when it comes from a supposedly "respected" and "well researched" source.

c) Not only do they feed groupthink, but they refuse anyone the chance to directly address groupthink with anything to the contrary. For instance, I've submitted a number of articles, both under my handle and as A.C., to slashdot. Some are overall coverage of the problem, others are empirical examples. Likewise, I've known many other capable individuals who have had the same problem too. I find it very hard to believe that there simply aren't any worthwhile opposing articles....and no, I don't mean those stupid flames where they quote some schmoe from Microsoft on open source (or whatever), and begin by begging for flames.

d) They exert little to no social pressure or consequences for biased moderation. I've yet to hear them speak up about any of the issues, or take any responsibility whatsoever for being wrong.

...anyways, I've got more than a few ideas that I'm sure would be dramatic improvement over slashdot. Perhaps later when I have time....

Re:A couple points...

[cburley]

I guess I don't have enough experience with /. to know, but your complaints seem valid, at least on their face.

One thing that occurred to me a few days ago is perhaps /. needs to hire an ombudsman. That person would then be the one to post stories about /. itself ("meta-stories"), for example.

Don't know much more about the ombudsman role exactly, but my impression is that it's a job often created to provide a news outlet with a way to hear, and reach, those who feel the outlet itself is failing them, without them having to appeal to the exact people who are failing them.

I grepped the entire transcript

[PD]

and I wasn't even mentioned once! Can you imagine that?

So what IS karma?

[Hard_Code]

So Hemos and Taco are saying that karma is not "worth"...that it is some factor to do with how good a moderator you are. Well, I haven't moderated in a long time, but my karma still fluctuates, so that seems to blow that theory away. The fact is, that if you want to foster a decent disussion community, you have to give people *incentive* to post insightfully. My karma was 150 before this cap (yeah, I'll brag, I was proud). But now because of the cap it doesn't *matter* what I post...it will eventually radioactively decay back down. So I'm ending up posting less valuable, off-the cuff remarks. Because there is no incentive NOT to. It's sort of like saying if you behave bad we'll smack you. But if you behave good, we'll also smack you. So...what're you going to do?

Perhaps you guys (Taco/Hemos) don't think karma is the correct measure of worth. Well, come up with one! Or (the valuable) people will just migrate to kuro5hin or other weblogs which actually reward their contributions. Saying that people who worry about karma should "get a life" is so inflammatory. Hey, wake up! This whole Open Source geek thing is all about ego feeding! Perhaps all those Linux hackers should just "get a life" instead of looking for peer esteem, right? Sheesh. So throw some ego crumbs to those who *make* your site guys...or Slashdot will just end up another web has-been.