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Whole Slew Of Commercial Linux Apps?
Rannos sent us a somewhat strange ZD story talking about chilliware and their "100 Linux Applications" that they are releasing to retail this year. They claim to be releasing a Linux office suite, too. All closed source. Also talks about the Corel/Microsoft thing a bit.
I wouldn't mind it. They're not talking about subverting the OS here; just producing a Linux office suite. Fine for ppl who like Office. If you're alluding to the scripting vulnerabilities in Office, I'll have to say again: Fine for ppl who like Office.
On the other hand I don't like the line drawn here between open and closed source. It's perfectly possible to sell open source software and even GPL'd stuff. Prolly see a better discussion of that further down somewhere though.
Yet Another Office Suite?
So what does that bring us now? StarOffice, the bloated hungry pig of an app (haven't checked the opensource release, hopefully that changes and they REMOVE THAT FUCKING MDI SCHEME or at least make it an option), KOffice and Gnome-Office, Applix, Corel Office, iOffice2000, Siag Office, and who else have I missed?
I love Open Source. I love selection. None of these guys get it right though; they all stop short of giving a fully integrated system which at least matches MS Office, let alone beat it. I realize that some of these aren't quite done yet but some have also been a work in progress since they've been released. Come on... If you're gonna do something, go whole hog, don't do a half-assed job about it!
"but most of the cool ones I am interested in have been going on for YEARS and look no closer to completion than they did a few years ago."
Software(that is used) is never complete or finished, it evolves over time to fit the users changing needs. This is the fundamental beauty of open source software, the user is allowed to take part in this evolution. I like this ability and don't want to lose it.
Time is Change. Get used to it.
I've always found it interesting that many of the posters in these forums sound like religious zealots rather than REAL sysadmins or coders
/.
I would guess that's because REAL sysadmins and coders are busy with REAL stuff, while 12 year old (in actual time or just mental maturity time) zealots have lots of time to post to
No, that's chilisoft.com - I wonder if these guys are just trying to rip off their name (since chilisoft's ASP solution is fairly well known)
Wow - I was marked as flamebait! Sheesh!
What was it? The fact that I mentioned I'd support a company that charged for apps? Or perhaps the notion that 'not everything needs to be open source'?
I'll modify my point some - not everyone WANTS things for free. Regardless of quality, many end users want to pay - they might think it buys them security, or peace of mind, or continued development, or whatever. And perhaps that's the only way some people CAN contribute. We can't all code new kernel hacks. But many of us could contribute to the development of Linux by financially supporting those who can and do develop new Linux apps.
By capitalizing on this premise, I think Chilliware will do good for themselves AND just possibly demonstrate to other companies that there is a viable opportunity in porting other Apps to Linux. I'd love to see Quicken or Quickbooks for Linux. I might end up using some other package later, but I'm drawn to the brand. Not everyone wants just a car - even if it functions the same - some people want a specific *brand* of car. Same thing with many end-users, imo.
creation science book
Depends. Newbie user who doesn't like compiling and find free software intimidating - yes. Stick-in-the-mud companies that want 'support' - yes. Linux is entering the mainstream now, so don't expect these new users to make the rational choice.
KTB:Lover, Poet, Artiste, Aesthete, Programmer.
There is no
For the canadians in the audience, Compusmart carrys boxed Linux software from Loki.
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With a name like that, perhaps they are hoping to be bought out by a hardware company who will eventually end up being bought out by Sun.
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In addition I do not see any specifications or screenshots on their web site. Its one thing to come up with shots of the boxes, another to come up with competetive software.
Sorry, but this news looks more like a trap targeted for investors. On the web site you can see that the guy responsible for press releases is also responsible for investor relations. This is pathetic.
I see at least one poster who has lost the plot and started off on a ramble about how great Chili!Soft are. This ain't them.
I've always advocated that operating systems should be open, in order to facilitate a level playing field for application developers. I see the OS as a sort of super-specification for how to write applications; while most OSs also provide a lot of services above and beyond that, I think their primary role is that of an application running environment. Having a free and open OS is akin to having openly published specs for public utilities. Imagine having secret electrical specs, known only to the people at your local electricity board. They'll come and wire your house for you, but there's no way in hell they'll disclose them to third party contractors.
In this light I view Linux as that open spec OS, the level playing field. Now whether "third party" application developers choose to follow the same economic model with their apps is an entirely different thing. StarOffice or Kylix or what have you provide none of the critical services of the OS, and whether you use them or not is entirely up to you, but not using them does not cripple your ability to use Linux in any way.
Not everybody is convinced by the economic viability of the Open Source way of life. Or--to put another spin on it--not everybody is as the same level of enlightenment regarding Open Source. But by providing an open source operating system and a mechanism for keeping it that way, at least we prevent closed source developers from forcing dependence on them on the rest of the community. After all, for a long time that was the biggest complaint about Microsoft: not that their software wasn't freely available, but that Windows was an opaque environment at the whims of its parent company, deliberately used to gain a competitive advantage by keeping its inner workings obscure, or even changing them periodically to break existing software. Linux as a widespread desktop OS would change all that.
Companies that make it are going to be the ones that provide a real service using the best available software. That software will be increasingly Free . They will provide the funds for others to continue writing software. Part of that service might even be a shrink wraped box with paper documents, as a "reasonable" price.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
There are already a good sized variety of closed source Linux applications...
Jeremy
Personally, I believe that people are more likely to use Open source software, simply it is adaptable, (usually) well maintained and (usually) free. However; if people wish to use the software, then that's up to them. It will probably fill the needs of those who aren't so technically adept. New Linux-converts for instance.
It is also worth noting that a lot of Linuxes offer real-time support (over IRC), and due to different time zones, this constitutes 24 hour (free) support.
Consider beer. Your competitors brand is outselling you. Solution? Release 100 inferior brands of beer. You will take the market by sheer bandwidth.
KTB:Lover, Poet, Artiste, Aesthete, Programmer.
There is no
It seems to me that these guys are trying to follow in M$ footsteps so to speak. I'm not terribly fond of the idea of running closed-source apps in my open-source OS, seeing as how there are plenty of alternatives.
Joshua
When in danger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout!
It simply makes no sense year after year to keep on paying again for that same app that would have suited you well enough 10 years ago.
If you don't need any of the new features of a given piece of software, you don't need to upgrade it (Y2K aside...). That's something that's often forgotten. If your company is happy with Windows 95 and Office 97, Microsoft doesn't show up at the door and say "excuse us, but did you realize that we've got new versions out that you MUST buy?"
that this is an x86 Linux only thing? I mean, after using Linux on x86 exclusively the last few years, I have now branched out and seen what Linux on Sparc and PPC can do for me. With open source software, I can of course port the stuff with little difficulty. However, this Chillisoft business being closed source, do I then have to wait to be able to buy a different platform version? That was why I quit using closed source crap in the first place!
Windows is going the way of phlogiston...
I am going to guess that in both of the second cases you mentioned, the user will be able to help themselves more than the company could. Anybody who can gather together all of the stuff needed to run their own Linux setup can probably figure out if they are running something incompatable with Product X. In the same way, if you went to the effort of compiling your own 2.4 kernel and X setup, you should know what is going on. Of course, that isn't 100% guarenteed, but it seems reasonable to me...
Posted from the wireless couch.
... does anyone seriously think that the linux os will bloom into a viable, end-user-oriented platform?
and also, does any one expect the manufacturers of closed source software to port their offerings to linux as open source?
Closed source is better than no source at all.. isnt it?? well???
It's sad to see the market is capitalizing on linux... It's provided free of charge, donated code by programmers aiming for a better NOS. Not for games, not for "productivity apps"...
http://siokaos.org/
See my detailed article on supporting Linux end-users and their needs at Advogato. I also give the weaknesses and strengths of setting up a "cooperative" to support these needs.
I think the limitation is that not much is really known about GNU/Linux end-users and what they expect. With all of the VC injected into the Linux server market, large entities really don't care about the end-users because the margins are very tight. There is not enough money to satisfy their VC obligations with a return of 15%. Server margins are upwards of 400%.
Lucas
But if you make a rock solid, easy to use software package for linux, where's the money going to come from if not for sales of binaries. Well written and small/simple apps typically won't require much support to get running, and right now, support is where all the linux companys claim to want to make their money from.
It's not sad, it's expected. Developers of various stripes (FSF, Open Source, public domain, et.al.) who contribute to the free Unixes have created a collection of platforms that are low cost/free, stable, relatively easy to develop for, and available on commodity hardware. Given this, the next wave to wash ashore is certain to be the strictly commercial applications, many of whom have suffered difficulty and setback on that other OS. Surprised? Don't be. It's as if we built a public highway using private donations along side the original dirt path, everyone is going to use it if they can and their uses may not be the same as those of the original supporters.
- technik
So what! People make bad decisions every day of their lives. I for one don't want to hand hold anybody. Hell, if someone wants to start paying for software, then perhaps there's money to be made out of it ;-)
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I agree. Also, why so many ad banners on a commercial software site?
Trying to make a few pennies are we?
Maybe it's just a traffic trick.
Lame.
-... ---
Um...but those boxes of 'just the OS itself' usually come with a stack of apps as well...
I personally think that boxed software is becoming an increasingly unfeasible software distribution mechanism now that the 'net is widely accessible - how much money is wasted in binning boxed software when newer versions come out?
[Happosai]
At least with reference to contact management, desktop apps are dead. Anyone who needs to actually manage their contacts is likely mobile enough to need the contact data available on the road, which makes a web-based solution natural.
As for office apps, this is a dead business. Anyone who needs Office already has it. Why people even bother with this is beyond me - you'd think the lukewarm response to Applix, KOffice, StarOffice, etc. would demonstrate how little demand there actually is for office suites on linux.
Its web application developers who have the opportunities in front of them - why address one platform when you can address all of them? Look at salesforce.com to see where apps are heading - people want this stuff on the network.
Outside of web browsing, the desktop app is dead, RIP.
Whaddaya mean it's been done allready? :D
KTB:Lover, Poet, Artiste, Aesthete, Programmer.
There is no
More likely they'll take the current open source applications, put thier own name and slightly modified GUI on them, and claim they wrote them from scratch.
Who will know? If they compile them slightly diferently so the binaries aren't bit-for-bit exactly the same would it be possible to determine if they've 'highjacked' some free software and made it thier own?
Sure, with similer functionality I know I won't buy them, but MS and other established software companies are doing a good job of scaring people about Free Software. They want someone they can call and yell at when it doesn't work quite right.
-AndyThey are trying yo use MS's model then.
They're taking an idea that's already popular(man pages). Then they make some trivial cosmetic change. And put out a 'better' but non-compatable version. They'll play fair and nice until the majority of the people are using 'better-then-man pages' and every programer must use this format or his program will be deamed 'hard to use' and 'poorly documented' and then they'll jack up the price and start squezing competing suites out of business.
That's why they have investors, because they hope to claw thier way into a monopoly.
Explain GNOME. Explain KDE. Explain the rest of the UI's currently in development. These are desktop environments that a LOT of open source development is going into SPECIFICALLY to compete with Windows in the desktop arena.
Yes, Linux is competing with NT & 9x.
Linux on the server side doesn't need easy to use interfaces like the aforementioned environments. Linux on the desktop does. Windows 9x is currently dominant on the desktop.
Consider the facts:
The Linux kernel is increasing support for desktop user space applications. USB, Firewire, DRI (for 3d/fx thus far), etc.
One of the main focii of the XFree86 project is to deliver better 3D accelleration. This is for the desktop, not servers.
Projects like GNOME, KDE, and other desktop environments are burning up community efforts like wildfire. These are for the desktop.
Office suites are being released like mad. Why do you need office productivity server on the server? You don't. This is for the desktop.
I could continue this tirade, but I'm irritated at the apathy in thinking like that. To say that Linux doesn't compete with Windows 9x is absurd. We need to feel as competetive as possible against Windows on server AND desktop - because I promise you, Microsoft feels the same about Linux (do you remember the post the other day? - M$ are directly attacking Linux in their ads!)
You mentioned that most users don't consider between Windows and Linux when choosing a desktop. This is the whole problem! Users NEED to have a strong pull towards Linux, otherwise, users in mass will not move away from Microsoft... and M$ will continue their monopoly.
Repeat after me: Linux is competing with Windows 98.
Of course, real tech support, on hearing that the application regularly crashes every ten minutes will ask questions like,
..., free, df, ..." will tell support enough to know if they are within support boundaries or not. Most applications won't care where files are as long as expected binaries are in the path and libraries are found the usual way. Most of this would be checked at install time. Heck, I think I'd rather support unix (not just linux) over the phone than windows or MacOS.
"Does it always crash after 10 minutes, for example even if you just start it and walk away?"
"How many times has it done this so far?"
"Can you make it crash at will?"
"is there anything else you or your computer does every ten minutes?"
"How much ram do you have?"
"Run it from the command line and tell me if you get any messages from the program while you're using it"
Then if none of that is enlightening, the tech support would probably ask a number of questions having to more directly with Product X.
I've done various kinds of support, and I don't believe the distribution or other differences are as important as everyone seems to think. If the user knows enough to customize their computer a lot, they will know enough to know what they've changed and what it's about. Otherwise, simple commands like "vmstat, ldconfig -v | grep
Allow me to introduce myself. My name is Scott McDaniel. I am the 'Technical Development Manager' at Chilliware, Inc. (Chilliware.net) Essentially, this means that I am in charge of making sure the code is fresh, clean and efficient. (Also, as I am kinda a geek, I am the one that answers questions like the ones posed here today.)
What I would like to do is let you guys know a few things about us, and correct a few mistakes I have seen. If anyone wants to ask further questions or discuss anything, please feel free to email me. (Oh yeah, please excuse any typos. I am the worlds worst typist..yes, even worse that Taco.[heh heh])
Ok, let's start here:
We aren't the typical Linux company. We aren't riding the coattails of anyone else's work. We are not trying to corner the market on anything.
That's the beauty of Linux. The CHOICE. If someone doesn't want to use our software, that's fine. We're sorry to hear it, but, I understand your position.
The whole concept of our company is that we want to bring Linux home.
I really want my wife to be able to design a Christmas card on my Linux desktop machine, without having to run WINE or VMWare to use PrintShop.
I want my Mom to be able to write a letter, do a mail merge, and print said letters out, without having to use a word processor that uses 90% of available memory.
I want my daughter to be able to use an encyclopedia or web browser for her homework, and I want all of this to happen on my Linux Desktop. And I do not want to wait a couple of years for Microsoft to provide this "service" to us.
I know that it is hard to accept this kind of change to what we already know and expect. But remember that we are just trying to put Linux onto as many desktops as possible.
I would like to close now, but first I want to cordially invite you to pop into our offices in L.A..
Send me an email, and we'll make arrangements. Come in, talk to us, maybe join the team...
I'll be keeping an eye on the threads, but I probably won't post any more responses here. I have alot of work to do this week...and I would much rather SHOW you what we can do than just talk about it.
Thanks for your comments everyone.
Scott McDaniel
Technical Development Manager
Chilliware, Inc.
http://www.chilliware.net
213-365-8700
www.Chilliware.net
www.Chilliware.net
I try to remain patient, but it is very hard sometimes. Some users require me to repeat explainations over and over and over and they still don't get it. Often users start yelling when they don't understand. And sometimes you get to the point where there is no way to dumb it down any further. Also when people have trouble speaking and understanding English it becomes even more difficult for me to explain to them what needs to be done. I really don't think I could do Linux software support. There are just too many things for the user to not know (i.e. distro, Window Manager, Desktop Enviroment, version numbers). Each Linux installation is so unique that supporting software would require too many questions that the users simply wouldn't be able to answer.
(i bet this is marked as flamebair)
Do you think anyone would buy it?
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Why not? If it worked for Bill Gates, it'll work for me.
KTB:Lover, Poet, Artiste, Aesthete, Programmer.
There is no
You're basically talking about the open-source equivalent of industrial espionage, ripping off opensource code and putting it in a closed source project. I don't think that would be happening in this case, and I don't think it's fair to ask to see their code on the off chance they are using the same speadsheet algorithms as Gnumeric. After all a lot of opensource code is realtively platform independent and you don't see people asking for the source to MS Works 2000 because of it has some the same features as AbiWord. I'm not expert but if you are really worried you could try running the likes of strings or a disassembler on their binary and see if they have left anything obvious in plain sight.
my blog: good times, man, good times
Oh, and umm...in a business sense ChiliWare makes the software that lets you run a website using .asp on linux...yeah...that's it. See? I did learn something from ChingaWare.
Mas vale cholo, que mal acompañado.
I agree with you in some respects. I am SOOOOO not the typical open source zealot.. but I must say having to rely on one company for patches, not being able to do it yourself and just buggy software in general... closed source sorta bothers me. BUT it is released a LOT quicker than opensource. I have been enjoying Internet Explorer over netscape for a long time because that opensource model for mozilla failed a long time ago. Just my opinion. But it has taken too long and I have stopped thinking of netscape as a solution. So many cool open source projects going on out there... but most of the cool ones I am interested in have been going on for YEARS and look no closer to completion than they did a few years ago. So on one hand you have slow to finish open source with publicly viewable code.. faster to fix. On the other you have closed source... its a companies ass if they don't produce it quick enough.. so it comes out quick... is for the most part quite usable... however sometimes buggy... Too bad there can't be an inbetween... where it comes out quick and can be fixed by the public. I guess it all has to do with the amount of people willing to work for free associated with open source.
I don't think that the corporate world is uncomfortable with open source. For custom work clients often demand (and get) source code. Even if they don't know what to do with it at the time they know that they can hire someone to maintain/enhance the product if the company creating the software disappears. There is a prevailing perception that FREE=INFERIOR though.
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As a matter of fact, I am a lawyer. But I play an actor on TV.
So, John Q. Public doesn't want to have to compile his own apps, but he doesn't mind using a command-line OS? huh? So now Slashdot isn't even pro-Open Source? Now Slashdot is only geared at anti-MS stuff? That's pretty damn silly.
Linux has suffered similar problems to the Macintosh: people avoid buying them because "there just isn't enough software for them." They proceed to then buy Windows boxes.
I'm sure this is probably true, but I think there is a fundamental shift going on in what people use their computers for today. The number of apps people are needing is dropping, because people are doing more and more on the web. I think this trend is even true for non-geeks as well as geeks, and that means that less and less software will be needed. We don't need lots of Office apps, we just need good ones.
Joshua
When in danger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout!
A good sysadmin also has time to find out what others in the profession think; hence the differentiation between zealot posters and those with some insight and logic.
The "News Courtesy of Slashdot" link goes to www.slashdot.org. We all know not to go there, right?
I hope they're paying royalties to Walter Lantz's estate for use of Chilly Willy as their penguin! One would expect a commercial software company to honor the Intellectual Property of others ;-)
Note that IBM is also opening up a large number of proprietary software technologies for Linux programmers, and I think that this is a good business move for them because it enables them to cut their costs.
Open source software may take over and force cooperation between corporations simply because of the fact that you can save money by NOT paying your developers-- you let some other company pay them.
I am looking at starting up a company which aims at Linux implimentation and support. I have done research into the market implications of the OS, and I think that it has potential.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
"The one common thread in all of the varying OS/hardware/networking/cabling crap I've dealt with through the years is the fact that CEOs, CIOs, CFOs and CXXXOOOs don't care what wonderful/demon organization brought the systems to you, they want it running 24X7 with only minimal scheduled maintenance. Laugh if you want, but I've stayed employed doing just that (yes, even with NT). Barring perfect uptime, (which is a myth), the way these management knuckleheads get their warm fuzzies is if you can show them a company that you can yell at if things go wrong."
This is exactly what Linux needs. And some companies are going to get rich when they figure this one out. Linux is on the rise in the corporate server world but will only become more than just another important NOS when companies give them someone to yell at in the middle of the night.
Linux will florish because there is a lot of money to be saved in it by vendors, and a penny saved is a penny earned, especially in a competative industry.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
Cheap knockoffs a decade too late to save unix.
Are you seriously comparing Gnome and KDE to the Mac? Try some missing featues like, uhm, drag and drop, application-aware documents, and other standbys that have been on Windows and the Mac for the better part of a decade.
Its hubris to think that KDE is even the equivalent of Windows, let alone OSX.
The Linux kernel is increasing support for desktop user space applications. USB, Firewire, DRI (for 3d/fx thus far), etc.
Yawn - who cares if none of the device vendors support linux out of the box? For example, consider the logitech USB webcam. It has a nice little applet included for taking photos and movies...on Windows. When is the linux version expected...never?
Projects like GNOME, KDE, and other desktop environments are burning up community efforts like wildfire.....Office suites are being released like mad.
AND NONE OF THESE PRODUCTS IS REMOTELY COMPETITIVE WITH MS OFFICE.
Thats my entire goddam point - these toys are still years behind the current crap you like to deride on Windows, and is at least five years behind what OSX will bring to the desktop.
I could continue this tirade,
Please don't, we've already conlcuded that you're a fanboy.
This market was locked up by Quark and Adobe years ago, and no one is interested in getting invloved with a new vendor at this point, particularly on a platform that has no color support, no support for high-end printing and lithography equipment.
Ugh! Is there ONE person/company in the linux world who is actually trying to build something that someone else didn't build five years ago???
Oh, I see there is.
Chilliware is marketing shovelware, the rip-off-at-half-the-price crap that screams at you pitifully from the bargain bin with the garish colors of laundry detergent boxes. Why would I pay "$79 or less" for a contact manager or a desktop publisher. A 117-person company with a hundred apps.? I dare you to call Support with a question on app. #42.
I bought DeScribe for OS/2 almost ten years ago, because it was a native app. That was probably its only marketable feature. I didn't buy StarOffice when it was proprietary. I didn't buy Applix Office. I'm not going to buy Chilli Office. Will I buy Corel Office? Yes, maybe. My experience with proprietary software is that you should buy big. Buy from the company that's going to be around tomorrow. Bend over when it's time to upgrade.
Why does Chilli see an opportunity? Because free software projects rarely compete for users. They're big on "scratch an itch" development, decent on "all bugs are shallow" development, but really weak on testing, release engineering, and documentation. There are some potential solutions:
Or hey, how about packaging a basic distro with the app? Maybe even something like phatware, that can be installed straight from windows. Taking an app-centric approach might attract more home users to trying linux out for the first time.
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CPAN rules. - Guido van Rossum
Awesome AC post, as usual.
1. Not all platforms support 'binary RPMs'. Many platforms I still gotta get the source and compile. Lord help me if one damn file is not where the package expects it to be, as I'll get cryptic error messages. If one more person tells me to read the 'man' page, I'll scream. The 'man' page was written by someone who ate/slept and breathed the project back in 1996 and isn't around any more (not 100% true, but I've seen it enough to bother me). 2. If you READ the article, it says 100% Linux apps, not 100 Linux apps. Someone got it wrong above. 3. I was talking about MS support. I've had decent support with open source stuff, but it's not universal. Open source (OS) is not a cure-all for all types of apps. Trying getting support from an OS project - if you get a response, *often* (not always) you get 50 'rtfm's from people who don't bother to read your inquiry, then you get people who bitch at you that your platform is wrong (get debian, not redhat, etc.) and that, just as you said, you're 'too stupid'. Excellent way to build a user base.
If by paying $79 I can occasionally get someone on the phone who can tell me how to get an app working with a beta of XR1146-whatever, excellent. I'll pay. My time is more valuable doing real work than poring over some crap docs written by someone whose attitude is they don't give a rat's ass if I use their product or not.
Back to RPMs for a moment - why, if I'm too stupid to use them, are graphic RPM front-ends being written at all? Is everyone else too stupid to use RPM as well?
creation science book
It's not a good idea to salvage parts from a moped to put into your hot-rod. So why salvage code from a word processor for that next big project of yours?
"Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world." --U.S. Circuit Judge Harry Edwards, speaking to the FCC's lawyer
Think about it. In true Wayne's World fashion I will provide three different endings to this question.
User: I am using Product X and it crashes after about ten minutes.
Tech support: Which Linux distribution are you using?
Response #1
U: Yggdrasil (sp?)
TS: Eggdrawhat??
Response #2
U: I rolled my own distro.
TS: *dial tone*
Response #3
U: Debian 2.2
TS: Ok, so your using kernel version 2.2.16?
U: Well, not exactly. I compiled a 2.4 pre release. I also built my own XFree86 4.0.1.
TS: *dial tone*
But most distributions provide the software in a pre-compiled, and often pre-configured, form.
SuSE 6.2, for instance, included a noncommercial personal-use license for StarOffice if memory serves; now they can have fewer restrictions on it.
Compilers, et al -- check the box, select the package, and often there's no setup time afterwards.
Support's the dodgier issue -- how's Linuxcare doing, or their ilk? ISTR also that RHAT has some higher-end expensive distros... hopefully they provide something a bit more than basic 30-day installation support for those.
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
Did anyone else notice that on their site, http://www.chilliware.net/, they have a news column on the left that just links to news stories on this site? This obviously won't fool any savvy linux users, but it makes it appear that they are connected and a solid part of the community. I guess they feel its ok to take other people's work and include it in your own. Let's just hope that they haven't done this for their upcoming apps as well.
Email reading is no longer necessarily a desktop-bound app - in fact, I use Yahoo Mail because I want my email available wherever I go - not just wherever I can find someone running Mutt who is willing to let me create and edit a fetchmailrc file so I can access my POP account.
I think email is one of those applications where your argument is weakest - web based email services have improved dramatically, and some even offer encryption.
What if you don't want your contact list on someone else's server where they can see it (opinion piece in e-week on this)?
Uh, most desktop apps these days (in a corporate setting at least), store data on the network, so its a little late for those conerns. I don't know of any major corporation where user data is solely on the local drive. Its simply an issue of whether that network is a closed corporate network or one that is accesible anywhere. Of course some data is sensitive enough that you do not want it openly available on the web - in those cases you can employ security measures or keep it on a closed network (although arguable this is still insecure).
I would argue that for most data, the convenience of having it accesible everywhere (with reasonable security provided by SSL) is preferrable to closed internal networks (where users break the closure of the network daily by copying data insecurely to palm pilots or x-drive or i-drive, etc).
Taking data off the local net and putting it on your palm pilot is not good security. So far I have found three palm pilots in airports, one belonging to a Sun exec who shall remain nameless.
"All closed source"
So what? Does it have to matter that something isn't open source??? Man this drives me crazy! A new app for Linux is a new app for linux. It gives Linux more exposure and greater expansion into areas it lacks, namely desktop apps. Linux can't survive with the big boys purely on little, noddy apps. The more, the better I say, even if they're closed source.
I dunno...Something here doesn't smell quite right. Maybe I am just paranoid, but I usually think of new software companies starting with one app and gettign it out the door before doing 4 at once. I may just pick up one of these to compare it to what's already out there. I am sure there will be an outrage if someone does "diff `strings ` `strings `" and there is not much difference
-- Who is the bigger fool? The fool or the fool who follows him? --
Of course this depends on the quality and usefulness of the applications!
Probably just the NSA trying to corner the market on Linux applications before open-source alternatives become too standard among the masses, making things difficult for getting their spyware onto people's systems.
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
Surely its more important to have the best software tool for a given job, even if its closed source rather than open?
For example, hands up everyone who would rather not have Photoshop ported to Linux as closed source, and would rather use Gimp? Keep those hands up, so I know who to avoid giving professional work to later...
Game dev and music blog
From what I've seen, as soon as Linux gets close enough, Windows will go the way of MS-DOS. Single-user and bad graphic abilities just will not hack it.
How many new desktop application vendors have you noticed in the windows market lately???
Um, lots? What about all those file sharing programs? Media players/encoders? Lots of client software for the internet. Tons of sound tools. Zillions of art tools. Reams of screen savers, winamp plugins. Games galore. Just to name a few. Anyone who works in the creative industry can always find a new toy to learn, there are more than you could ever even try.
While I agree that a number of apps have moved to the web for some people, there will be a cutoff point for both speed and security which people aren't willing to use the web for. A perceptually realtime interface is often a requirement.
Ugh!!! I had programs to do that on the Amiga in the 80s!!
ChilliWare is doomed. There is no demand for a linux program to print community fliers.
It certainly is a step in the right direction to have off-the-shelf, high quality, end-user-ready applications for Linux. What would be better is a new killer-app (new application so powerful and obviously necessary that everyone wants it NOW) for Linux. Why not marry the convergence of these two trends: The move to Linux, and the move from desktop-to-laptop-to-wearable PC? Someone ought to be aiming at writing the ultimately integratable (sp?) software for wearables, now, for a Linux machine of the near future.
Hey, maybe that's why Transmeta hired Linus? (I never really believed it was just for PR, myself. Why would he have accepted the gig, if it were?)
>>Oh, and umm...in a business sense ChiliWare makes the software that lets you run a website using .asp on linux...yeah...that's it. See? I did learn something from ChingaWare
Actually, no. ChiliSoft (as in Chili pepper) develops the open ASP interfaces.
Chilliware (a loose reference to Chilly the Penguin I imagine) is what this story is about.
Apparently their trinkets weren't only cheap - they didn't do their job.
Marc
Interesting angle on some things, too -
Ok... so what is this, a proprietary help format? Is something like that gonna catch on?
Also, their own distro - "tightly integrated with our products" - does that mean the browser will be built into the kernel?
---
Who said you can't demand payment for your open source application? Who said it has to has bsd or gpl license? I'd really like to have applications with source even if I'm not allowed to distribute my changes and fixes. But I could, for example, use it on a not officially supported platform...
Szo
Red Leader Standing By!
If he does end up foisting a braindamaged distro, well, then, we can Just Say No(tm). I mean, this is the realm of Free Software; it's our perogative to choose, ja/nein?
--Jo Hunter
--Jo Hunter
Smile! It makes them wonder what you're up to.
Um, show me the money, or at least the software ?
LinuxOne, the second coming? Perhaps it could be dubbed, "LinuxTwo" ?
I've always found it interesting that many of the posters in these forums sound like religious zealots rather than REAL sysadmins or coders. Some responses to this parent will fall under the same category. Sure, we all have our favorites and experiences. I cut my teeth on Sun and HP platforms well before Solaris and CDE in the UNIX world. I loaded some of the first NT back when only primary M$ partners could get it (scary). But most systems are are owned by companies that are capitalist in nature.
The one common thread in all of the varying OS/hardware/networking/cabling crap I've dealt with through the years is the fact that CEOs, CIOs, CFOs and CXXXOOOs don't care what wonderful/demon organization brought the systems to you, they want it running 24X7 with only minimal scheduled maintenance. Laugh if you want, but I've stayed employed doing just that (yes, even with NT). Barring perfect uptime, (which is a myth), the way these management knuckleheads get their warm fuzzies is if you can show them a company that you can yell at if things go wrong.
Linux hasn't had that. I don't care what utopian OSzealot induced nirvana you live in, most of the real world has investors and managers that (no matter how much they may praise you and depend on you) really want as many people on a problem as they can get. And before you say it, the legions of dedicated opensource/freesource coders don't count because they can't be held accountable. No matter how much we believe in the cooperative model, the fact remains that Linux is having a hard time getting through the bonehead fence of "free must mean no one to yell at". Software distributed via more traditional means will help to continue the mainstreaming of Linux because it fills in the gaps between old methods and new ones. I don't care if there isn't really someone capable on the other end of the phone (my teams fix most of our own problems because the support geeks are usually 7 steps behind us), but the perception of support in the management mind is real.
Also, when you're running a mainstream OS (read HPUX, Solaris, NT, AIX, Novell), you have the chance to start slipping in shareware/freeware/homegrown utilities and apps as you deem appropriate. The management weenies only see the good results and think they're running from the native systems. Once you have them dependant upon the product, then you let them in on the background (if you have to). This will be one more method of getting the best products on our systems and keep our pagers from going off in the middle of the night.
Funnily enough, I think they could succeed in their proposed business, not because the category of products that they want to produce are particularly useful, but because the corporate machine requires employees to have them on their desktops. Yes, a large and lucrative market may exist for them, despite costing good money and despite lacking the freedom benefits of Free Software.
Note that these kinds of applications are not thought of very highly by tech individuals, otherwise they'd have been created by the community already. There has never been much of an itch to scratch for program developers in this area, but the PHBs probably think that they are essential, and no doubt are willing to pay for their belief.
"The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
Based on some limited investigation of chiliware, I agree with bruce here. I don't think they're capable of writing 100 useable applications in the next year. I think they may be capable of packaging other people's software, though.
Note the slew of sites that chilliware wants to use to drive its name - none of which have anything on them. Chilliware looks like it's another internet play with linux as it's hole card.
If you want a good commercial application suite, I'd say it's not chilliware you'll be getting it from.
-Peter
== Just my opinion(s)
I'm suprised how uninformed the /. community
has become concerning the differences between
software licenses. I for one hope that this
damn company goes bankrupt immediately. I for
one do NOT want to be using crappy, proprietary
software on my desktop. Not as long as it acts to
deny me of basic freedoms (use/copy/modify). This company can go to hell, to be blunt. They said
it loud and clear, they want to capitalize on the
good nature of others work, while in no way contributing back to the free software community.
Bah!
scott olsson
j. scott olsson
Oh come on, this is ridiculous. There is not a significant market of people who seriously consider linux and windows simultaneously when making purchase decisions.
Most linux users want nothing to do with windows (or have a windows box available for the things they need it for), and most windows users only have a vague idea what linux actually is.
Linux is only a mass consumer product insofar as Solaris or FreeBSD are mass consumer markets, and the markets these products actually compete in has almost nothing to do with the windows/mac market.
Gorkman
We use Linux for development and hosting, but most of the people here still use Windows as their main desktop for day-to-day apps. I'd love to be able to have apps like what they're talking about - contact management, for one, and don't mind paying a reasonable price for them, as long as they're (1) usable and (2) supported should we need that.
Not EVERYTHING needs to be open source! This is precisely the kind of options I think the Linux community needs. We don't all feel like downloading RPMs or source code, make install, etc. If this company makes a distro that they'll make apps for that look good, install easily and have good functionality and decent prices, these guys will do well!
creation science book
Oh Goddess, I hope not.
There are two kinds of sysadmins: paranoids and losers. I'm both kinds.
I am going to tell you that John Q. Public who is out browsing the store shelves is going to see have his attention caught rather quickly.
Wow, there are applications for Linux?
Linux has suffered similar problems to the Macintosh: people avoid buying them because "there just isn't enough software for them." They proceed to then buy Windows boxes.
For the mainstream, the subrelease quality of most software on Freshmeat is not sufficient - and Mr. Public does not want to compile his own software. Just so long as ChilliWare produces a good product (aren't they they the ones who produce that software to run ASP on Linux - and looking at their four new products, things are looking good) this will produce many exciting benefits.
And in the long run, there's always the possibility of ChilliSoft opening its software up once they become successful. Hey, look at what Sun did with Star Office (it didn't take that long either).
One Window at a time...
With the increasingly large popularity of Linux, is anyone surprised at this?
Linux has been growing trememndously in the public eye in the past year or 2, and its time that companies begin bringing the old closed-source apps over onto linux.
While probably not something you will see on the rabid GPL-lovers system, for the casual linux user,the person whos grown tired of Window's blue screens, he's bound to try out linux, and once getting comfortable with it, and getting a casual understanding with it, chances are that he's gonna want to use some comercial programs, since in his mind, "shrinkwrap=better/easier to deal with"
Just part of the inevitable with a lot of popularity, i guess
-Joel
Stop over-analyzing your analizations
But, this is an unknown company, and their products might be crap. Then the nay-sayers would just love to hold them up as an example if they fail, proclaiming "Selling retail software for linux won't work!" and discouraging other companies from trying the same thing.
Will be interesting to watch. I hope the benefits end up outweighing the potential costs.
________
...as we are about to witness another rant by RMS.
Let's face it, the corporate world is not comfortable with open source and free (as in beer) software. Commercial products that are not open source, selling them, and supporting them, may be the kick-in-the-pants that the Linux-on-the-Desktop movement needs to really take off....
If for one, would love a choice in Browsers. Something that has the support of Macromedia, Real, (and maybe even QuickTime!) and etc. and all the other things that make web-browsing 'fun'...
-- You can't idiot-proof anything, because they're always coming out with better idiots.
This is absolutely a good thing for Linux, but I hope they can resist the temptation of only supporting their own distribution. ...And it can be that they turn out as vaporware aswell.
Great, now all we need is a "Linux Country"! Seriously, think about it! It's great and all that Linux is really starting to move up in the popularity, and that there are commercial apps coming out, but it's not good enough yet.
Hear me out . . . Microsoft's Windows is only popular because its ease of use, its dominance in the market and its number of available titles. Walk into a Best Buy or a CompUSA, you see aisle after aisle of commerical Windows product.
Linux? Well, all I really see at these places are the OS distros and maybe a couple utilities or Corel WordPerfect Office Suite. The Best Buy here has only one four-foot (just over a metre for the Non-American-System people) section with five shelves for Linux, and probably twelve aisles of Windows products (mainly games).
For Linux really to have some power in the same market as Windows, and make it more popular, it has to be the three things Windows already is. Ease of use: Well, last I saw, Debian and Red Hat were fairly easy to use. Maybe there are more already. Dominance? Well, as a server OS, it does fairly well. As a desktop or business solution, it's still got a little while to go. And number of available titles? Sure, Open Source is great, and free software is better, but the only people who are developing these are developing them because they want to, not to really make a living.
How do we remedy these? Well, open a dedicated store! Linux Country! Really. Walk inside, have nice black cases all around with white spots (not those stores with the white boxes and black spots), notebooks which are preinstalled with your favourite distribution, software as far as the eye can see . . .
Well, it's a dream. But if someone really wanted to invest in it, would it be that difficult of a dream? If people could make money off Linux developing the games, software and utilities, they would. Though people on slashdot often don't think software should be commercialised, it's one of the only ways to feasibly make Linux and Linux software more dominant.
In this fantasy store, we'd have all these titles. We'd have pretty plush penguin Tuxes. We'd have training courses so even the computer-illiterate will be untarring and bashing and telnetting!
It's feasible. But then again, it was feasible fifty years ago we'd have flying cars. It's 2000, and the only flying my car will be doing is if I get tired of it breaking down and I drive it down to the local gorge.
Just a little daydreaming on my part. Don't mind me.
Dragon Magic
Human nature is the same everywhere; the modes only are different. -- Earl of Chesterfield
Huh? Am I a communist? Why? For realizing that most people aren't fit and would not gain from using Linux? Or more importantly, because I'll lose if they do?
/Helge
Well, I don't see what the big deal is. I paid 79.95 for my copy of Corel Linux at CompUSA!
What's this Open Source thing?
EOM
OK... so I made most of it up. Sorry. :)
It's been "on the drawing board" and in development since shortly after the announcement of TkApache, which was October 15th, 1998.
Exactly what in my comment can be attributed to communists? Communists aren't elitistic as myself, indeed they want EVERYONE to adapt to what they decide is right. I believe that certain things (such as Linux) are best left alone by certain people (such as clueless Wintendo users). Is this a communist attitude? Not likely...
/Helge
I'm not covered by the DCMA, so it wouldn't affect me personally. Then again there is probably some arcane British or New Zealand law that would screw me just as equally.
my blog: good times, man, good times
The type of software that desktop linux desperately needs is a counterpart to MS's Outlook/Outlook Express and the IE browser. Netscape and its lack of multiple pop mail account support doesn't cut it. (su'ing to another user to open a separate e.mail account doesn't count)
If you use linux as your desktop OS, then you definitely want to see someone offer something like MS Office. Staroffice and Corel are almost there though. Also, NS6pr3 is almost there too.
If I could pay to get Illustrator and Photoshop on my linux box...Hell Yes. Gimp is not there, tho it is free. Not everything sold is of poor quality. Sometimed the !free stuff is just better.
Cheers,
Tom
Reality does not happen until you analyze the dots. -Don DeLillo (Underworld)
So is it 3-alarm, 4-alarm, or 5 alarm? Any jalapeños? And don't forget the milk and bread; gotta offset the acid in there!
"Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world." --U.S. Circuit Judge Harry Edwards, speaking to the FCC's lawyer
I'm sorry... but the gimp "is there".
Too true... Maybe, in my morning haze, I should have phrased, "The vocal opinionated slashdotters". Then it would be more precise.
Not all, just it's so overwhelming it's become a stereotype.
Dragon Magic
Human nature is the same everywhere; the modes only are different. -- Earl of Chesterfield
(Please note that we are not talking reality here, we're talking legality. Subtle yet important difference :) )
--Jo Hunter
--Jo Hunter
Smile! It makes them wonder what you're up to.
They have already proven that they are capable of borrowing from other sources with their mascot. Anyone remember Chilly Willy?
i cant believe most of you take them seriously!
his arguments were full of it. you can see software for linux on shelves of many stores, even office supply stores (staples etc)and there will only be more of it as time goes on. if linux users really needed a propriatary closed source office suite, what happend to applixware?
and then that bit about trying to become the microsoft for linux...
helix-gnome,abi-source, etc. will do a better job what they claim they are trying to do, if not the distributions themselves...
Impostor!
The part of the interview with their CEO reminds me of the old Borland/Microsoft days when Kahn came out with some over the top comment every other day. I suppose that it really is the only way a small company can get in the ring with MS. 16 new apps this year? New office suite next year....sure. Throw enough shit against the wall and hopefully something will stick.
While I'm all for people producing closed source apps if they want (sorry, RMS - I believe people can be secretive if they so desire ;), I don't think these guys Get It. Open Source isn't just about releasing source code. It also represents a different business model: the possibility to make dough without sequestering the man-behind-the-curtain.
On the other hand, I hope they succeed in bolstering the desktop app market. ;)
--- --- --- --- ---
--- --- --- --- ---
Santa tells me you're bad. That makes you good in my book.
Another futile effort to try and make Linux a mainstream desktop OS... Who needs it, and more importantly who wants it. Linux should stay as UNIX-like as possible instead of being turned into a windows-lookalike for clueless newbies who think they are 31337 if they run it. Today I tell most people not to run Linux if they ask me about it and I will continue. Most people haven't got the interest it takes to be able to use, understand and administer a complex system like Linux. I'd rather see them sit with windows and winnuke eachother instead of fucking up a perfectly good OS with demands such as user-friendly GUIs and such integrated into kernel-space.
/Helge
:-)
Personally I hope this effort goes straight down the drain and scares off other companies from trying the same. Long live 31337 3v|1 h3xX0RZ!@#
Just my $0.02
PS. For those who can't see it, I write this with great irony and little seriousness
Does anyone have access to the source code to truly check that they're not reusing someone else's licensed code and breaking the license agreements at the same time? I don't want to poo-poo the idea of closed cource off-the-shelf linux apps but I'd like to know that my money is going to the true developers of those apps and that the company offering them is not riding on the backs of open source developers.
Matt Thompson - Actuality - Insert product here.
They'll be releaseing 4 next week.
They plan to release 16 next year (read: maybe 10)
They speak of 100 percent Linux-for-desktop applications, not 100 Linux-for-desktop applications
The journalist speaks of more than 100 desktop Linux apps, without any time frame. I beleive journalists even less than lawers.
And their website is nearly empty. Who said vaporware?
____________________
Ni!
Maybe the guys from LinuxOne started a new company? It looks like LinuxOne went under in a non-blaze of non-glory... somebody has to carry the non-flame. Haven't heard anything about them on /. for a while, did they die?
Moe
...too bad I beat them with a product called Mohawk...
... hence hey won't make it into the Debian 2.3 official ISOs. :)
--
1% APY, No fees, Online Bank https://captl1.co/2uIErYq Don't let your $$$ sit in a no-interest acct.
This is where the quality/experience of the support people you employ factors in.
...
TS: See the icon on the desktop that looks like a clam shell?
U: Yes.
TS: That brings up the Unix Shell window, sort of like Microsofts Command Prompt window, so Click It.
U: Done.
TS: Now in that window, type the following, "procinfo" then press Return and read back to me what the first line says!
U: Blah blah
i.e. You assume the person on the other end of the phone is merely an extension of your eyes and ears. You tell 'em what to type, roughly what to expect, and then they read back to you what they see. You make a mental adjustment each time based on the information you get back, and keep going until you have a handle on the problem. It's a skill, just like any other.
If your user can't even handle this, then ask them to put the secretary on the phone so you're dealing with someone who can actually type. I've actually had to do this in a past life when I came across someone who kept typing "lsSPACE-l".
Macka
Seriously
What's the point??
Linux is a hacker's OS.. i honestly don't care if it takes off as a 'desktop OS' for a bunch of lame assholes.
The people that made linux what it is today didn't do it for the money, they did it for the love of programming.
I dont see why everyone's so overjoyed to see linux gain popularity..
The linux hackers aren't going to stop making kick ass programs just because your boss and your grandma aren't using it on their home PC's.
Ok, i'm done ranting now, flame away.
How do you know if any commercial company does this? MS uses BSD code for certain programs and utilities. Whats to stop them from using GPL code?
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
16 apps in a year from 117 engineers.
Either the apps are simple desktop "applets", or they will be low quality knock-offs of good software.
Designing, developing, and testing a robust, feature-rich application takes a lot of time. He gives a total of 8 man-years per product. My experience says this is plenty for the 'developer' quality software you see on freshmeat (ie, the software does its job if you treat it right), but will not cut the mustard of what consumers expect from a CompUSA shelf box.
My gut feeling is that they will be hawking the type of software that you find in those big 'bargain boxes' at CompUSA. First there are the cheap knock-offs: "Heh, look. $10 for a CAD program!! I gotta have this." Unfortunately, trying to do anything but the tutorial crashes program. Then there are the useless extension to outdated shareware: "Look. 1001 Card Games. Only $10. And here is 101 Arcade Games That We All Wish We Could Forget. Still only $10."
It's nice to have 117 more developers on board, but since they're closed source I don't see them contributing much to the community other than some exposure on store shelves. Even then, if they're software is as sub-standard as I expect it to be, it may prove to be negative exposure.
Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
Just like the one person who thought I said "Open Sores", was looking at me like I had just belched during church. She couldn't figure out why I'd support lepracy or something.
Just a second chain of weird humour based on this. Maybe it's been said too often already?
Dragon Magic
Human nature is the same everywhere; the modes only are different. -- Earl of Chesterfield
Someone needs to read the moderation guidelines.
- In Capitalist America, law violates YOU!
Most good free software (and a lot of bad) is included in the main Linux Distributions. Do you really see someone paying good money to buy something they already have for free?
Find funky gifts
Cool, so he wants to completely break Linux (but Microsoft had a head-start - their OS was broken to begin with!), force all Linux users that load his apps to re-boot once every couple of hours, and charge an arm-and-a-leg for half-ass apps that require several service patches before they're even minimally functional because they were too cheap to fix the bugs BEFORE they shipped? Oh, that's EXACTLY what Linux needs. Why didn't WE all think of that?!?!?
Sombody PLEASE wonk this guy several dozen times with the ClueBat(tm)!
... 11084 apps and increasing each day. Now who says Linux doesn't have any apps? :)