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Alpha Station: Grumps In Space
aldheorte writes: "The extolled virtues of polite multinational cooperation and goodwill allegedly exemplifed by Space Station Alpha are giving way to practical difficulties. CNN is carrying a story entitled "Life aboard the space station: long days, sarcasm and swearing" highlighted by ground controllers pleading with belligerent, swearing astronauts; certainly not the 'Gee shucks, darnit' family-values-and-apple-pie team image NASA likes to create." Well, at least they got the solar panels fixed.
All of those space-based projects require experience that there is only one way to gather - spend a lot of time in space. Right now, that's expensive. MIR helped, this will help more.
...phil
...phil
"For a list of the ways which technology has failed to improve our quality of life, press 3."
Are you sure you want the competition? What if she likes him more then you? -- Michael Of course, you _could_ expand your sexuality then what if *you* like him more then her?...
I don't read ACs: If a post isn't worth so much as a nom de plume to its author then I wont bother either.
Man, that Kibo guy gets around.
Laugh while you can, monkey boy!
After reading Bryan Burrough's "Dragonfly", about the tensions on board the Mir-Shuttle missions, I can understand this story better. First of all, there was a great friction between the astronauts and the ground controllers. Because of poor integration between Russian and US controllers, the ground crew was not always as well prepared as they could have been. Also compounded by this is the fact that cosmonauts get paid "bonuses" for work accomplished -- a successful manual Progress docking gets you $2k or so -- so there is more animosity toward the ground when they can't solve a problem.
MSK
They should make a sitcom out of this. Couple guys bickering about in a space station(er, ship).
Wait, they already did. It's called Red Dwarf.
I believe that was Apollo 7, in 1968. It effectively ended the careers of the three astronauts on board. No big deal for Wally Schirra, he was going to retire anyways, but it really screwed over the other two: Don Eisele and Walt Cunningham.
General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
Imagine all of the engineering time, the decades of training and preperation, the pressure and danger, just to get up into orbit, get on the space station and just grow Broccoli and feed lab rats .
Someone you trust is one of us.
Slightly OT, is it just me or will the media report ANYTHING that has to do with space? I mean, I like the fact that we have space probes and all, but they seem to report it every time a shuttle lifts off, or a space walk is conducted, or NASA decides to publish the photos they've been collecting. It strikes me as bizarre, given how often people talk about the public lack of interest in space that everything related to NASA is considered important enough to report.
"The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
The only reason the idea of an international space station may be "stupid" is that there are multiple ground control groups with conflicting authority.
Go Badgers! -- #include "std/disclaimer.h"
The following is the content of an email I received from someone who I am assuming wouldn't want their identity published. It sums up the media frenzy quite nicely:
I was listening to that conversation over NASA TV and the "don't swear at me" line was, as usual, taken out of context and distorted by the media to indicate conflict where none was actually there.
The "Don't swear at me" was used as a preface to some additional tasks that the russian mission control were trying to lay on the ISS crew.... and they knew that the crew had already requested a reduction in work load. So the controller said (in Russian, translated by NASA) OK, now, guys...... don't swear at me now; but I've got a few extra tasks you need to do today.
Isn't is amazing that the CNN crew latched onto that ONE phrase and billowed it up to imply that the crew were cursing at the mission controllers?.... which never happened.
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It's not a joke. Those guys are overworked and in a tough environment. They need the sort of labor protections the workers on drilling platforms and remote oil exploration sites need.
From what I know, mir translates as "world", "peace", and "community"/"community property." Sort of like, in the "mir" all is right/"mir" (peaceful) when everything is "mir" (belong by everybody). In the mir --> our town/place/world/existence. Very peasant-like.
Or something. At least that's what one of my prof's said. Like many russian-isms, it is a very compact lingusitic structure that sort of depends on context how it expands into English, which can be a much more verbose language at times I think.
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News for Geeks in Austin, TX
As I see it, the real problem with the ISS is the huge amount of money that it is sucking up, to essentially just provide an international good-will playground for military trained rocketboys. If the resources devoted to the ISS were instead diverted to substantial research on practical, conceivably -profitable- projects, such as space mining and manufacturing , there might concievably be some real non-beuracratized development of space where private citizens could have the oppurtunity to finally have a new frontier to expand into.
After all, the sun is more then halfway through it's usefull life. If intelligent civilization dosen't manage to establish a self-sustaining foothold in space while it has the chance [say, before it destroys itself, or is wrecked by natural disaster/cataclysm (perhaps, ironically enough by said very same insteller rocks)], then all of the glorious complexity and marvelous achievements of evolution [up to and including mankind] will have been for nothing.
What a waste that would be... "I am ozymandius, king of kings, look upon my works, ye mighty, and dispair"...
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man sig
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the pen is mightier then the sword. the sword is mightier then the court. the court is mightier then the pen.
It's been obvious to anyone who's listened in during the past week. It's been very embarrassing for the Russians. I didn't hear the swearing incident but I did hear two others. Yesterday, a ground controller ask Bill Shepherd to do a short video piece for the media and he snapped back at them, "Why are you telling me this now!?" It was very funny because he was very annoyed and said it in Russian, and the female translator just repeated it in this deadpan voice like it was nothing :-)
Later on, the crew were even slagging off the designers because a component didn't fit it's bracket. LOL! :-)
It seems to me like they are intentionally annoying the controllers by not answering their calls right away. Then agan, it may just be their terrible radio link, cause it is really stinks compared to the one the Americans use.
Politeness doesn't come into it when the situation is desperate. But that does not mean the mission is doomed to failure.
Nekros
That's because it's fscking Greek.
It means both "world" and "peace", thus the saying "miru mir", "Peace to the world".
-- Sigs are for losers
From what it sounds like in the article, the Russian crew and the American Commander seem to be getting along about as well as can be expected. It sounds more like the Russian crew and the Russian ground-control people are being catty with one another.
This is likely because the crew on the ISS has been suffering an astonishing lack of Good Russian Vodka (tm).
"Oo vas yest Vodka, tovarishchi? Nyet? HAHAHAHAHA!"
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I *invented* pants!
It sounds to me like the Alpha astro/cosmonauts are working together pretty well, considering that they are still alive and that there are no hastily-scheduled crew exchanges. If there is a problem, it should be alleviated in a few years when Alpha is capable of housing a larger crew.
science is a religion
It was named Alpha when it first became an international space station in the late 1980's or early 1990's.
Alpha was dropped in NASA literature in the mid 1990's, about when Russia joined, possibly due to the fact that Russia had operated the first space station back in the 1970's.
It became Alpha again after Bill Shepard arrived as the first commander, despite protests from top NASA administration (who probably wanted to name it to score some political points or have some big ceremony). Shepard had probably trained under the Alpha name for a while and decided to stick with it, since it was ok with the rest of his crew (Alpha is also Alpha in Russian).
science is a religion
What kind of agenda was the author of the article pushing? I suspect he was trying to say something on the order of "See these people are just as big pieces of shit as the rest of us are." I suspect he was attempting to denigrate something he couldn't do in a million years so that he would feel better about himself; it is the same rational in back of someone who 'keys' a new car "maybe I can't have one of these - but I'll make sure you aren't happy about it either".
Wouldn't it be cool if the ISS were equipped with lots of webcams, ala Big Brother.
I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
You fail to consider the single most important thing.
Slashdot nerds can get laid anytime, while your options in space range from none to.... well, probably, none.
Ooops... just realized. I said Slashdot, and nerds. Nevermind about the getting laid part. That's probably why nerds on slashdot are as ill tempered as the nerds in space.
I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
These people are under pressures that nobody still on earth can feel. They're going to do whatever makes them more comfortable while doing what they need to do. Who can blame them?
... it has everything to do with just how much three people are being asked to accomplish, while at the same time dealing with all the glitches and bugs of a brand new space station. If they were three Americans, and the parts were all American, the first visitors would be under the same stress and would likely lose their temper just as easily as Alpha's crew is. In fact, we should be thanking our lucky stars that Russia are the people training our astronauts for long duration spaceflight. They have a long history of space stations, and their training programs specifically focus on preparing a person for the intense pressure of living with other people in a can in orbit. Without that training, I'd wager things would be much worse than a little hissy fit about a carbon dioxide removal unit.
Go Lakers!
Atleast they can look out the windows and see the earth!
BZZZZzzzzzttt! Thank you for playing, try again.
(I really hate it when some armchair theorist starts spouting their latest theory prefaced with "Everyone knows" then procedes to publically drool)
In reality NASA spent a great deal of time researching the optimal crew size for high-stress envirinments and determined that 3 is the optimal number. All of the material is publically availiable & applied in a wide range of disciplines from physchiatry to business management.
Moderators: It was harsh but this fellow was trying to pull a fast one. Making up information is *not* cool and folks *should* get called on it.
I don't read ACs: If a post isn't worth so much as a nom de plume to its author then I wont bother either.
Seems I recally that the 70's skylab had an incident when the astronaughts (funny speeling on purpose) went on strike and refusted to do what ground control asked, felt they we're being pushed too hard. Too lazy to look up referances ... ok, here's an easy referance right here.
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
What these "science" jounalists need is a trip on Mir or ISS. But not as tourists but to keep sending space news for a year... In the end we will only hear: Well, this *BEEP* space station *BEEP* working as usual ... Today *BEEEEEEEP* solar panels and ***BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP*** rest. *BEEP* Ground "discontrol" is ****BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBEEEEEEEEEEEEEEPPPPPPP* about us...
For nearly 20 years, Soviet Union/Russia had people on Space. And it becomes clear that the longer you stay there, the worse you get tired and nervous. They start getting sarcastic, nervous, sometimes quite ordinary. With longlivers, talks with ground control become 90% "not for children's ears". And this is not due to bad conditions or lack of air. The problem is on the huge amount of work, the lack of time and all this in an enclosed space on not very familiar conditions (lack of gravity is not as funny as it may seem). Besides there is a psychological problem with ground control that causes serous problems. You're working for monthes in a cage, swetting and having lots of things to do, troubles, glitches and features. You don't see your family or friends and it was monthes before you had be in a party or soemthing. And this damn lack of gravity to help. Now you see that ground controller who just came from home, had just seen his wife, had been in a party last week and tells you that you are doing something wrong... Can't you imagine the reaction? Well I haven't been in Space but I was in one quite remote place once. For several monthes. When someone started to tell me I was wrong through the sattelite phone I could only say:
Ok you damn fat swine, take your ass from your hot seat and come here to the frost telling "I'm wrong" in your f**** sweet tone"
Wait till it becomes at least Beta.
...Nasa may be the next site found in the Smart Filter.
Ceci n'est pas une sig.
You'd think they'd try to be extra nice to these guys...
With all the concern about the Iridium satellites coming down unguided, I'd hate to think about what would happen if one of these guys got really mad and decided to give the ISS a shove towards Earth. Bet mom in Nebraska wouldn't be too happy to see the world's largest Erector set come flying into her backyard and mess up the flowers...
(and yes for you physicists out there, I know it doesn't quite work that way...)
brianboruI assume that you're talking about adding a female third person, rather than a male third person (which would be much more fun, IMO).
Things brings up the interesting question...
Is 3 really the optimum crew size in a mixed sex environment, or is it for a single sex environment? Hmmmm? Three alpha males? (Yum!) Or three dominatrix, or a mixture thereof.
there is no unauthorized breeding in Jurrasic Park
I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
pitr [alpha]: i am thinkink you might try turnink the wrench clockwise, da?
stef [alpha]: wrench! clockwise! can't you geeks speak in plain !@#$ing english?!
My .02,
My .02,
zencode
iactivist.org/jason
Tension between ground controllers and the astronauts reached a point where the crew actually mutinied, refused to obey ground instructions and took a day off. Can't find any info on this on nasa.gov ... go figure ;) Some generic info
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If the good lord had meant me to live in Los Angeles
The NASA PR engine has long pandered to the US's puritanical values. One doesn't have to dig too deep to discover that Astronauts have been cursing since the Mercury program. More interesting is the relationship between ground controllers in US and Russia. As stated in the article, US ground control carefully plans and simulates every activity to make the Astronauts' difficult tasks as easy as possible. Russian policy is to train the crew well enough that they can improvise in any situation, which makes the 'you could have broke it' comment from the Russian ground control interesting. Were they talking to Shepard? Or was the crew not trained to repair the CO2 scrubber? Anyway, its no surprise to see a space project requiring more than twice the time and effort envisioned by the big heads.
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... from the article's description the friction exists primarily between the ground controllers (American and Russian) and the ISS crew, not among the ISS crew as most previous posts seem to speculate. These three guys have had quite a while to train together on the ground and are working closely together under adverse circumstances, so I'd bet that they get along pretty well given where they are and what they're doing (how much stress would you be under in a tin can that makes a submarine look roomy, surrounded by hard vacuum, and you only have 48 hours worth of O2 upon setting foot therein?).
Now add to that stress some jerkoff piloting a chair on the ground being pissy at you. I'd swear and be sarcastic too. Note also that the Russian language, and particularly their military slang, has a rich oral tradition when it comes to profanity (English absolutely pales by comparison, from my experience as a native English speaker and university-educated Russian speaker[1]), so the two Russian crewmen no doubt have a large palette with which to paint the situation and ground crews unflatteringly.
[1] My fianceé is trilingual in English, German, and Russian, and in her opinion Russian is by far the most profane in terms of common usage. Just an additional point of reference... :-)
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News for Geeks in Austin, TX
...that groups of three are the most unstable small grouping. There is always potential to form dynamic, shifting 1-against-2 conflicts. With the present crew, American-vs-Russian, commander-vs-other 2 crew (both of which coincide w/ the current command rotation), or minor shit like 2-guys-who-like-coffee vs 1-guy-who-likes-tea or something equally inane. Emotional conflicts as described are expected w/ a group of three.
(btw, IANAPsychiatrist)
My other sig is also a
NASA has made available flight data and radio exchange transcripts of previous space missions. I'd sure like to see what's in the logs in these latest missions.
The article on CNN and MSNBC both sound like the stories told by the American astronaunts in Burrough's book Dragonfly. The problem seems that ground control (russian and US) doesn't seem to be able to come up with realistic timelines. reasons in Dragonfly why it was difficult. a)what is up there doesn't match the ground inventory b) the task was not simulated properly so the estimate was off. c) the crew is isolated and if they using russian ground control they only have comms for 10 minutes out of every 90 minute orbit. So the normal back and forth conversation between a astronaunt and ground control wasn't present on Mir. It was more like 80 minutes later 80 minutes later This goes on and on for days. Solution: Experience and communication. The US has a lot of experience training for short-term mission. Now we need to learn what to do for long-term mission. As long as they don't try to critize the astronaunts we should get the kinks worked. The good news is that next month US Ground Control will take over the station.
...they can't hear you swear.
Unless the mike is on.
Hmm. I think given that data that it may not be intentional that the Americans felt the Russians were hacked off at them. Russian body language and linguistic habits can seem really gruff and cold to people not familiar with them (e.g. Russians very, very, very, veryrarely smile in public, to them it's a subconcious sign of sugar-coated, goody-two-shoes insincerity (now think about how Americans tend to smile first and ask questions later, is it any wonder most Russians think Americans are a bunch of twits?)). So the Russians may have just been in normal operating mode and the Americans misinterpreted it (magnified by the fact they have the personal space of a veal calf up there). Russian culture and American culture have grown much more accustomed to each other than they were in the 1970s, though, so this may not be as big a deal as it might have been then.
(This is not to imply that Russians are actually cold and gruff, they just might seem that way to strangers. My experience with them personally has been 180 degrees opposite in that you couldn't hope for warmer friends once they get to know you and you become accustomed to their body language.)
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News for Geeks in Austin, TX
Kinda makes me think of MTV's Real World(TM) (shiny thing network), Survivor(TM) and Big Brother(TM).
Bill Shepherd: "I'm sorry Sergei, the tribe, er crew, has decided to vote you off the ISS"
Yuri Gidzenko: "We are thinkink you are takink up too much oxygen and not workink hard enough on da solar array"
NASA Ground Crew: "Sergei, the crew has spoken, please remove your helmet and step out of the ISS"
Hammer of Truth