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Sprint's Wireless Broadband - And What A TOS!
Xpresso85 writes "Just a few weeks ago, Sprint started offering Broadband Direct in my area , it's a $44/month wireless Internet service. Their Terms Of Service is one of the worst yet. You can not portscan, probe, run game or Webservers of any kind, upload or download viruses, use anonymous e-mail, view porno, post anything vulgar or hateful, you cant even encourage anything illegal. They also reserve the right to enter your home or property, monitor your activities, and "share" your personal info with other companies. Lastly, they restrict you from sending out spam, I guess they don't like competition. That's one service I won't be getting anytime in the near future!"
With clauses that attempt to alter the material and content of the users interaction with the internet isnt Sprint volunteering to 'censor' the material. And isnt it necessary for Sprint to maintain that they are not 'responsible for the material you transmit to any degree' in order to maintain the 'common carrier' moniker? If they push these TOS arent they asking to be liable for the material you do up/download?? Can an Honest Lawyer(TM) please explain...
Also, this TOS (POS maybe a better acronym) in one breath says "you cannot up/download any porn/copyright material in violation" and then goes on to say "the internet contains porn/copyright violations" and we are not responsible if you dload them - you are! These double talking crooks are talking out of both sides of their mouths - on one hand I am expected to be capable and diligent to exclude these things and on the other they claim they can not/will not/dont feel like being responsible to act in kind...
These bastards think they have found a way to Have Their Cake and Eat It Too(TM)®©
Random people who enter without notice are presumed to be criminals and will be treated as such.
Say hello to Mr. Mossberg.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
10.16 You grant to Sprint or any appointed subcontractors an irrevocable license to enter into or onto your Premises during normal business hours, Monday through Saturday, in order to install, repair, replace or remove Equipment. This license will survive termination or cancellation of this Agreement and will run with the land and inure to the parties' successors and assigns. (my bold)
Is that legal? You sign a contract that means when you sell your house it still applies? They can still bundle their heavies in to fiddle with equipment even though you moved out four years ago and Mr and Mrs Numbskull that moved in haven't a clue what that funny wire in the wall is for?
I'm pretty sure that over here in the UK you can't put terms and conditions like that on a contract. Isn't there something in the US constitution?
Oh, I had to look up 'inure' on www.dictionary.com.
"To habituate to something undesirable, especially by prolonged subjection; accustom"
And it still didn't make much sense...
Baz
Your response made perfect sense to me to start with. The part about refusing to pay for services or goods not rendered, I really like that. Too many companies in today's economy forget that the mainstay of good business is to provide good products and services, not to fool the customer into thinking the products or services are good when they're really not.
However, you really go downhill from there. You clearly have no conception of what is means to be a capitalist. You mispell the word, for goodness' sake. It's CAPITALISM, as in capital, as in transferable resources. Corporatism, which is the true target of your ire, is not synonymous with capitalism. The problem with the economy in the US is not that is is capitalist, but that it is less and less capitalist everyday.
In a capitalist economy, the proper function of the government is to provide and protect access to information. I should be able to find out that cigarettes are bad, Firestone tires will kill me, or whether the fruit I'm buying is genetically modified or not. Our government, however, fails to do that. I believe the failure is direct response to the entitlement mentality engendered by the government beginning with the New Deal. The government no longer protects our access to information, which means that AOL/Time Warner effectively controls what Americans believe and what information they have access to. It's a shame, really.
Corporations take advantage of that lack of information by providing shitty goods and services. That's why so many companies are intent on loading their products with new features instead of reliability. They know that more than likely, we won't be able to find out how reliable their product is before we buy it, but we sure will notice the pretty box with the big list of features.
The real answer to corporatism is not naive anti-globalism and an end to capitalism, the answer is to educate people to understand their alternatives and make reliable information freely available. End consumerism and you will end corporatism. End capitalism, and you will end freedom.
Any time you have to depend on claims of "We wouldn't really do that, it's just for our protection", wonder why the language isn't equally broad in your own favor for _your_ own protection.
AT&T@home has similar req's, but even do a better job of notifying you that if your perfectly acceptable use becomes some sort of a bandwidth hog to your neighbors, you will be limited immediately and without notice. Oh, and they just clamped down on all uploads...
But hey...it's cheap. Admit it.
--The statistical likelihood of your existence is so small as to render you impossible.
Any sufficiently well-organized Government is indistinguishable from bullshit.
I mean that seems kind of harsh.
I suppose anything can stand until it is challenged in court though, right?
BlackNova Traders
The first part says that they may limit your OS. The second part says if you happen to choose another OS or hardware device, it better not fsck up the network for others. But read carefully, it really includes any device including Windoze machines. So if someone hacks your NT box and somehow uses it for a DOS attack. Then you are violating 2.5.
Of course, that's because it's formatted for Windoze standard character assignments... which reminds me of another scary part:
So, in other words, if they decide that they want only Windoze on their network (read: Microsoft leans on them a bit...), can they just boot all MacOS/Linux/BSD/etc. users off, saying that they might "impair the Services?!"
"...the people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world are the ones who do."
If you ask me, it isn't like trying to open doors. All a portscan does is see what services a machine runs. Mail? Web? FTP? SSh?... It's like a house has doors for certain things and you're seeing what each is for.
And in reply I'd say that if you weren't explicitly told it's none of your business and you're not welcome. If a house has many doors it isn't my right to check what they're for unless there's big signs welcoming me in. What about people scanning for backdoors : They're not just checking to see what they're for...they're looking for victims.
Just because I know some Sprint Lawyers/marketroids/other evill PHB types will read this - and I have the karma to burn:
It takes real scum (like you) to foist this kind of crap on the public, just to fill the corporate coffers -- You'll First Against The Wall when the revolution comes. It may even be soon - and trust me: it will come - it always does..
Why dont you monkeys do something constructive - call the Boss(TM) right now and tell them these TOS are immoral. "Immoral you say, who cares about morals - we are trying to make money! If you dont like it -- dont buy our service, buy it from someone else! This is the Real Word(TM)®©" And you've just exactly made my point.
Fact is there is no one else - you provide a necessary public infrastructure... and again, eventually slugs like yourselves will have to answer why you spent your adult lives trying to screw your neighbours with your well funded hammer... all because you are selfish, irresponsible and greedy.
Fucking Assholes.
From the TOS
/. trolls! As long as the Religious Right(properly pronounced "Dogmatic Wrong") are in control of the lawmaking in the US and sodomy remains illegal, we can TOS people for linking to goatse.cx!
7.1.2 post or transmit any unlawful, threatening, abusive, libelous, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, indecent, profane, hateful, bigoted or otherwise objectionable information of any kind, including without limitation any transmissions, constituting or encouraging, conduct that would constitute a criminal offense, give rise to civil liability, or otherwise violate any local, state, national or international law, including without limitation U.S. export control laws and regulations;
Yea!!! Now we can TOS
Steven
-- I have marked myself unwilling to moderate-- I don't have other accounts to artificially inflate the karma of
Yup. This particular TOS is pretty much designed to make sure that they can enforce something at some time rather than everything at every time. Specifically, they mention that:
In other words, Susie runs SuSe and sshd on her home box so she can use, e.g., scp from work to home and back. Now, that *could* be seen as an illegal server (although there could be a loophole due to the fact that the TOS only bans servers used by "others"). But in fact, they would never bother with this. On the other hand, Ned is a napster user who is not only sucking up all the local bandwidth but arguably sharing MP3s in a way that could be construed to involve copyright infringement. They will probably tell him to knock it off.
The most worrisome point of this TOS is one that I haven't seen mentioned yet:
I've marked possible typos with [sic] here. One problem here is that there is arguably never any good (non-marketing) reason to collect "personal identifiable information" in the first place, since this is the kind of thing that is ripe for subpoena. Indeed, most corporations are learning the lesson that they should do things like forcibly delete email and log information pretty rapidly, just so that third parties won't have anything to go after. Now, it's possible that Sprint never really does store personal identifiable information except email, but they don't say that.
Problem two is that even if they only collect information about web-browsing behavior in the aggregate, they (or other marketers) can often have other information about you that can be used to do an alarmingly good job of determining who surfed where...and targeting you for directed marketing campaigns in the process. Now, there may be very little escape from the Database Nation these days, and you can argue that at least they are being frank, but this kind of thing still gives me the creeps.
Babar
So (if actually legal) this clause says that if any previous owner of your property has ever had Sprint, Sprint has these rights over you?
Yikes!
Shut up, be happy. The conveniences you demanded are now mandatory. -- Jello Biafra
For one thing it says "this contract which defines a customer-provider relationship lets us do something with your property in perpetuity even after you terminate our contract". That is bullshit and I don't believe it would stand up in court anywhere. It's your property, you can let them in or not as you please. If they have a problem (i.e. they are leasing you equipment that you don't own and you won't return) they can sue you for it, but that doesn't give them the legal right to break into your home and take it.
Hmm.. I wouldnt expect so. The service is provided by agreement and payment. If there are terms of service, and you accept them, then you are bound by said terms. I dont mean to be rude, but if we stop for a second (in all seriousness) and think about that phrase, it all comes back to terms. Terms of service. You may pay for it, but you also agree to abide by the rules. What I would propose is that you would/should find some form of enforcing your own privacy, such as encrypting your mail with PGP or GPG. I havent heard of a free SSL proxy out there, but that may work, although with ISPs now using enforced proxying of http/https (does proxied https requests bother anyone *else*?) requests even that may not work. But PGP/GPG mail and news would work to some extent. I'm sure that put in the situation you would find some way to guarantee your own privacy when the corporation behind you fails to do so.
---
Video meliora proboque deteriora sequor - Ovidius
For some inane reason this post was moderated as "Offtopic" when it is clearly not. It is specifically referring to section 10.16 which states:
IANAL, but this sounds like Sprint claims that once you've ever used their service, they have a permanent right to enter your property without your permission even after you cancel the service. Not good.
How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
5.1 Although Sprint will make commercially reasonable efforts to maintain the Services, you may experience service interruptions
I have a real problem with this idea. If Sprint is unable to deliver the product (the service) I do not pay. Simple. I dont care what you feel is "commercially reasonable". I have a VERY hard time with paying for something they are not providing - under any circumstance. Standard 'customer' protection laws should exist that nullify any attempt for anyone to include the above clause. How would sprint like it if I felt I was not 'commercially reasonable' for me to make my payments on time - or at all? The pizza you ordered has 2 pcs missing because delivering a full pie was "commercailly unreasonable", I get one shoe without a lace - but I have no right to ask for a discount to replace the lost lace... the TOS we are seeing with everything these days is showing one thing: American Capatalism has bread a monopoly in mostly every industry.
If it were as simple as 'making a choice to a better product' (read without these TOS) people would do it. The simple fact is the barrier to entry in most markets (of any consequence) is so high that only a few companies can try... and when they do - it is much easier to collude and exclude any possible interlopers.
The power being demonstrated in this Sprint TOS is really only an indicator of a much larger problem... unfortunatly it is systemic to the American corporate-centric economy.. power concentrates, it is easier to collude than compete once a certain state has been achieved (as it has been), Capatalism ends in Monopolistic oppression... Anti-Trust laws are intended to stop this... but the same people who run the country also own the business... fat chance of any of this power being given away freely (ie a strengthening of Anti-Trust law...).
So tell me again; Why did America elect a Republicrat instead of a Honets leader like say umm anyone except a Republicrat? Maybe Ralph Nader would run for President and put an end to this crap.(?!?!) Oh yeah, he did... and America got to watch their 'democracy' in action in Florida... A pretty nice 'play' if you ask me - almost enough to convince people their is a difference between the two parties, and that they should NEVER think of voting third party - it is obviously a wasted vote... *shudder* and this is really what people think...
Get ready world - you have not yet recieved all the TOS for your futures...
As for port scans I see port scans being used to preclude a DOS attack as being banned, but what about an innocent port scan (I occasionally do them to test security on systems I own across the internet...)? The text of the acceptable use policy makes port scans used for a DoS attack unacceptable (as well it should), but port scans in general do not appear to be outlawed.
-
I was being silly, I know they aren't going to enter your home without permission. But why would they have it in their TOS? It just looks stupid.
Finkployd
I was watching T.V. this weekend and saw an AT&T broadband commercial touting their download speeds by saying that you can download a song at lightning-fast speeds. Interestingly enough, their TOS says:
I noticed problems with this part of the TOS before this commercial and when I tried to point out the incongruity, they told me that they don't interpret legal documents. I responded that I was merely pointing out a mistake in their terms of service and that I intended to violate that specific clause by creating an .mp3 of my own (poor) musical performance that would be copyrighted (with myself as the copyright holder) and distribute the file over their service. The forwarded the e-mail to their abuse department and that was the last I heard from them.
I figure either someone got the message and the TOS hasn't been updated yet. :)
Of course, the more likely scenario is that their ad agency isn't bright enough to breathe, let alone be familiar with their TOS!
Free Mac Mini. Yes, I'm
Hey, everyone respond to the highly moderated troll! I'll join in now; otherwise what kind of successful troll would it be?
I know we love to have these "devil's advocate" sorts of posts to make us think more, but sometimes we really have trouble finding good ones, and it gets tiresome. For example, how many times do we need to see this line: I REALLY wish people woudl read posts before flaming away. Yeah, yeah, I know-- RTFA. Do you realize RTFA is NOT a sufficient rebuttal? Does it occur to you that people may indeed have the expressed opinions after reading the TOS? Every point listed is, at the very least, quite debatable:
1) attempting to send e-mail or newsgroup articles or postings using a name or address of someone other than yourself, attempting to impersonate any person or using forged headers or other identifying information.
There is a lot of "or" in that sentence. What qualifies as a forged header, or forged identifying information? Would the anonymizer count? How about in front of a tech-illiterate judge, with Sprint's lawyers vs. your small-ass pocketbook?
2) You grant to Sprint or any appointed subcontractors an irrevocable license to enter into or onto your Premises during normal business hours, Monday through Saturday, in order to install, repair, replace or remove Equipment. This license will survive termination or cancellation of this Agreement and will run with the land and inure to the parties' successors and assigns.
This goes beyond the right most service providers have. I sure haven't granted my DSL provider permission to come into my house and take the modem back, especially when I'm not home. And the whole bit about the right surviving termination of the agreement-- not likely to stand up in court, since if you no longer agree to the contract, you no longer agree to any of it, including this part. Still, with the latest legislation of business models, the courts seem remarkably anti-consumer. Are you willing to bet on him ruling your way when, a month after you cancel service, a Sprint rep walks by your window and sees a bag of weed inside on the table?
3) Their list of stuff you can't send, if you READ IT PROPERLY, explains that wehat they are saying is that you can't do anything illegal. They even SAY THAT. How hard is that to understand, hmm?
How hard is this sentence to understand: "you may not post or transmit any... objectionable information of any kind, including without limitation, any transmissions, constituting or encouraging, conduct that would constitute a criminal offense, give rise to civil liability, or otherwise violate any local, state, national or international law, including without limitation U.S. export control laws and regulations."
Notice they say, right there, right for you-- "including without limitation". Which means that all that is just clarification text, and what they've really prohibited is "objectionable information". You don't think that's a little excessive?
I REALLY wish people would read posts before flaming away.
And I see that Slashdot agrees with me:
Lameness filter encountered. Post aborted.
Reason: Junk character post.
So I had to do some editing to get it accepted.
Did you even read the thing? It states that they do NOT share your personal information, only network usage statistics in aggregate.
They can only enter your home for installation, removal, or repair, not for monitoring, this is normal as this is what your phone, cable, utility companies do also.
They don't prohibit downloading of anything, only transmission of viruses, spam, warez, etc.
The only truly objectionable thing I saw was no running servers, but that might be a good thing if their infrastructure can't handle that. Personally, if it can't, I'm not going to use it. Who would want to game on a server running on a wireless connection anyway?
AT&T @Home is the same way.
I recently moved into a @Home area. I called in advance to set up an install date -- but the system saw the phone number I was calling from, realized that I couldn't have @Home in that area, played a message and hung up on me! I eventually had to call Excite @Home's toll number and have them connect me. (And repeat this over and over while I had tech problems with them.)
That'll teach me to have a mobile phone with an LA area code while living in Seattle. I had to use a friend's land line with the proper area code/prefix when I tired of the toll charges.
I wrote a nasty letter to ATT @Home, and mentioned this insanity to everyone I talked to over there, but no one could help.
Corporations are kind of like black holes. Once you attain a certain mass, no customer service can escape.
Isn't wireless, which counts as 'public broadcast' covered by much stricter laws, in the USA, than anything going over phone/cable lines? Might explain the harsh rules. Then again, might be standard Corporate Cluelessness(tm).
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
As a lot of posters have pointed out, this is standard legalese boilerplate for a TOS. It looks a lot like the one for @Home or for any of the big telco DSL providers (SNET, Verizon, BA, PacBell, etc).
I find it interesting that most of those others try to ban multiple computers using the connection at one time. SNET in particular (I used to have their service) goes as far as to say that they don't mind you having their DSL modem hooked into a home LAN, so long as you only use the internet from one PC on that LAN at one time. They are, of course, happy to provide additional IPs for an additional fee...
Anyway, this particular TOS doesn't address that. Apparently they do offer additional IP's, but they don't forbid things like DSL routers or IP Masquerade.
So basically they're doing what all the other big ISPs are doing. Which is why I'm with a small one.
"I will gladly pay you today, sir, and eat up
Sacred cows make the best burgers.
Um, try reading the TOS. They do not ban downloading porn; they can not enter your house as they please; they actually REQUIRE you to have some form of firewall so that NOONE can monitor your computer; and they don't monitor what you do personally, just in aggregate, like every other ISP out there...
Man, people, please read the linked articles before over-reacting... It's just standard legalese. It may be worded more 'harshly', but it's the same as every major ISP out there. (Well, the requirement that you can't run a server is very @Home-like, and a little much, I do have to admit that.)
Another non-functioning site was "uncertainty.microsoft.com."
The purpose of that site was not known.
But they don't say what the equipment will do, and they don't say that that is all that they will do when the enter "to install, repair, replace, or remove equipment". So at minimum they can install arbitrary equipement, and they don't have to tell you what it is. And they get to choose when. (There doesn't seem to be any provision that requires that your, or some other responsible party, allow them entrance.)
If this thing is (or becomes) legal, then it's quite an arrangement.
Caution: Now approaching the (technological) singularity.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Argue all you want about your right to port scan but the reality is that you have no such right to probe other people's computers for vulnerabilities like that.
... climb out and hang ...
Oh yes you do.
---
Put your feet out and stop
I pledge allegiance to the flag...
of the Corporate States of America...
No it can't.
Finkployd
Too paranoid. I've had my place broken into before. Regardless of what they were doing in my apartment, they broke into it. They would certainly have a gun pulled on them until I make sure they aren't robbing the place and a potential threat to my life.
Finkployd
They've also decided to ban web browsers IRC clients, and instant messaging. And you are not allowed to receive email unless it is from a Sprint-approved SPAM provider.
They will also disconnect you if you or any of your relatives own any firearms. And you cannot get service if you are either pro-life or pro-choice. You are not allowed to have any opinion about any political or religious issues.
And if they catch you attempting connections to slashdot.org, they will send a bunch of guys to your house with Uzis to "reeducate you."
Scary service, if you ask me.
--
"May I have ten thousand marbles, please?"
i've read it in depth... and well, there isn't anything in there that isn't "boilerplate"...
"Don't do anything illegal" - and if you do, they're not liable... as for entering your premises... that's for service/installation. And you can send "anonymous" e-mail... you just can't impersonate someone else.
I think if you check your ISP's AUP - you'll find a lot of the same stuff...
BlackNova Traders
Guns for dummies must be your favourite book.
That's the best you can do? Sad really.
Finkployd
For #2, did you read the rest of the item? About how they can access your house at any time AFTER THE AGREEMENT IS CANCELLED AND THE SERVICE IS TERMINATED. Oh... there's also that small part that says THEIR ACCESS CANNOT BE REVOKED AND IT WILL PERSIST ON THE PROPETY/LAND FOR ALL FUTURE OWNERS.
their website doesn't allow you to get any information on security, pricing, and other stuff.
This may be because they intend to 'fix' the prices to various regions. Much like the MPAA demands control of the product to maximize profits in all regions - Sprint may be attempting the same. Like airlines charging more/less for the same product depending on the venue through which you shop - this practice is immoral and probably illegal (i forget but it is in some way... although Im sure they practice this in a method that is a classic method to avoid it being technicall illegal - there is a law to prevent this behaviour if I recall - could any honest laywer* please explain. (in Canada at least)).
What a shamefull mess you Yanks have gotten yourselves into that Sprint would even attempt a TOS like this...
*Go ahead and reply below with your own punchline to that 'set-up'...
You'd be surprised how many have clauses like that.
By the time of the signing ceremony, the apartment people want you to move in (they've invested time in showing you around, answering your questions, etc.). Both sides have leverage and can use it.
My routine by now is to plan on spending a good half-hour going over the rental agreement, and to be ready to walk out without having signed if it seems necessary.
If you look trustworthy there's a 90% chance they'll let you cross out the stupid clauses, initial your changes in the margin, hand it back to them, and get their signature. Voila: a contract you can live with.
Jamie McCarthy
Jamie McCarthy
jamie.mccarthy.vg
My Terms Of Service for my (UK) ISP forbid me from blesphaming.
I mean, honestly, what the hell is that?
Despite the many of us that may have strong feelings on this "freedom" thing it is really in Sprint's best interest to do what they can to make money. They need to report good earnings back to investors just like any other public firm (especially with the recent drop in telecom). The real education needs to be provided to the common at home user that will have their rights taken away by such a blatent disregard for consumer rights. Sure geeks will stay away from Sprint, but that is such a small market it will not effect Sprint unless more is done to inform the rest of the population (99.9% of the population to be more accurate).
Bingeldac denies any responsibility for the
spelling and/or grammatical errors above.
Basically, they can kick you off their service for violating their rules. Of course, it also sounds like they can send a smelly, greasy, installation guy over to your house anytime they like! That could be worse...
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
The way it is phrased (read it again), it supposedly gives them the right to enter your house even long after you have terminated service with them, and nowhere does it say that the equipment they install has to be related to your service. "Hey, Mr. Jones, you aren't a customer anymore, and you don't have any of our equipment anymore, but in accordance with your contract with us, we have come to install this little widget on your roof." They'd probably not get away with it, but that is what the letter of the contract says.
The major problem with the contract is that it doesn't let you run servers of any kind: chat servers, game servers, FTP servers, whatever. And that is clearly spelled out. Read it yourself.
I read through the TOS (albeit rather quickly). I missed the part about "No Porn", in fact it did have this in there:
7.4 The Internet contains unedited materials that may be offensive or objectionable to you. You access these materials at your own risk. Sprint has no control over and accepts no responsibility for these materials. Customer may wish to utilize software designed to limit access to certain material on the Internet.
Which basically seems to say "Don't come to us if your kiddies are viewing saggytits.com on a regular basis." Not that I really care... Sprint recently cancelled their wireless broadband offering in the metro Detroit area, and I was never applicable for it in the first place.
-This sig intentionally left blank
It isn't "their" equipment. You buy the equipment as part of the signup. If you terminate your contract, you can throw it into the trash if you like. If you terminate your contract and owe them money, they should go through the standard legal procedures in case of unpaid bills, not carry out vigilante justice themselves.
I don't see any problem with port scanning in general. Port scanning doesn't mean someone is breaking into your computer. It may just mean I'm checking one of my own machines for security holes.
Many of the "legitimate" services eat up much more bandwidth. Sprint broadband uplink speed is 256k, while downlink is 1-5Mbps. Running servers even at full capacity is barely more than listening to high quality audio or video and it's less than running a VNC connection.
For better or for worse, it's a free market. If you have a choice in providers, let them know that you will sign up with a provider that doesn't have such draconian terms of service. If they hear from a lot of people, they may change their TOS.
What a load of s**t!
Attention all planets of the Solar Federation! We have assumed control! - Neil Peart
...most of it seems pretty reasonable and it seems like they're giving themselves a clear legal mandate to boot abusive users off the service.
/. overblown response, however stating in your policy that you disallow game servers (which is a big reason many people want broadband), is pathetic. If they want to disallow these things then they should run Quake Lithium, Quake3, UT, etc servers of their own. Games seem to drive much more of the industry than most of these corporate type seem to understand... Also some of the other prohibitions seem to come from the same sort of corporate disconnect as the game one.
Up until this point I can agree with you. When I was working for a start-up, we worded our eula so that we had fairly broad mandate to kick abusive/problem users. We did this while specifically allowing usage of portscaning and other measures.
Personally I'd love if providers started kicking port scanners off their system as it is irritating, and a complete waste of bandwidth... (clip) Argue all you want about your right to port scan but the reality is that you have no such right to probe other people's computers for vulnerabilities like that. Go out at 2 in the morning and try all the door knobs in your neighbourhood and see what sort of treatment it gets you. "But I was only trying to improve security!"
Here is where you begin to come off like a M$-sheep in my eyes. Portscanning can be a very useful tool. Portscanning is your right according to the latest court precedent. And lastly, what is it with the stupid door handle analogy, it is a poor one at best.
You may as well say that every one who looks at camera layout in a bank or store is a would-be criminal. What about a person who checks out building layout, security guards attentiveness, etc before buying into a lease for their business? Are they also would be criminals? When I am consider doing business with an e-commerce site I always scan them. Always. Anyone that I am supposed to trust with my business, credit card numbers, bank account, etc I check out. Always. Going by the above logic I should listen to/read information by a companies' marketing department about how secure they are and blindly trust that they aren't as stupid as M$ is and not install patches, etc to their networked machines to protect my business/money/livelihood. This is the same sort of retarded thinking that I heard from an ISP owner I know. "As long as I keep my (unlicensed) Win 2k servers patched I am entirely secure, because M$ said so." He knows relativly nothing about security and know not much more about Win2k than the minumum required to run his business.
By the way I have not been burned by trusting a company with poor security, Have you? Are you sure that you won't be? How are you sure?
I would agree that much of their eula is to be expected, and understandable. Much of the reaction seems to be just standard
From the TOS:
The rest of the TOS, while somewhat harsh-sounding, appears to be fairly standard legalese, saying that you aren't allowed to use Sprint to break laws; the only bit that somewhat distressess me is the following. You are not allowed to
...but I suspect that this is merely to give them carte blanche to "kick ban" harrassing folk. Same with their policy of port scans and the like (as they probably don't want to have people contacting their sysadmins saying that there are script kiddies trying to break into their networks).
They also have provisions limiting bandwidth consumption and servers that you can run from home, but most broadband services limit those these days, especially by forcing lease refreshes every month or so (or sooner).
Yeah, it seems somewhat fascist, I'll agree. ...but it's broadband. It's not a T1 or even DSL. You get what you pay for, and from what I see, this isn't that bad.
Not exactly. Since you don't have a "right" to use Sprint's broadband service, anything goes. You still fall under the standard set of consumer protection and credit protection laws, however.
Similarly, many people with jobs have clauses in their contracts that restrict them from making statements about the company to the press. Since you have no "right" to a job, they can fire you for, technically, "exercising your right to free speech."
The biggest loophole seems to be that since the government (ie, "the people) regulate the airwaves, they could screw over Sprint for "not acting in the public interest".
-Dean
How on Earth is Time Warner supposed to get into your house if you aren't there? If I enter my home and find it broken into and a Time Warner exec standing in my living room, he will find a gaping hole in his chest :)
Seriously, apartment contracts are different since they are the technical owners of the apartment, but a computer service has no claim to your premises. Although if they want to enter and you refuse, they could cut your service.
Finkployd
Whenever there's packet loss on the net, you can be sure a faulty Sprint router is behind it. They've been a poor internet citizen since day 1. Too bad you can't kick a company or backbone off the network...
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Here's the section that I guess would prohibit viewing porn:
7.1.2 post or transmit any unlawful, threatening, abusive, libelous, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, indecent, profane, hateful, bigoted or otherwise objectionable information of any kind, including without limitation any transmissions, constituting or encouraging, conduct that would constitute a criminal offense, give rise to civil liability, or otherwise violate any local, state, national or international law, including without limitation U.S. export control laws and regulations;
If you request a porn page, it's being transmitted by your request. Notice it's wrong if it violates any local law, not necessarily the one for where you live.
I really hate signatures, but go to my website.
If you actually read the agreement, it says that the clause is "irrevocable" and survives termination of service. That is exactly what makes it so disturbing.
Except that in this case, the "Bad Stuff" isn't sent in the clear, it is encrytped/encoded by nature, and requires a complex set of electronics in order to view/decrypt the data. Sorta like how HBO can say "Fuck" on the Sopranos, but NBC can't say "Fuck" on Friends...(I think that *technically* I'm not supposed to say "Fuck" here, but, well, Fuck it...)
Besides, in order for some kiddie to accidentally view the Pr0n, he would've had to have violated one (or more) of these portions of the TOS:
7.1.11 make any unauthorized attempt to gain access to any account or computer resource not belonging to that user
7.1.15 obtain or attempt to obtain Services by any means or device with intent to avoid payment;
7.1.16 unauthorized access, alteration, destruction, or any attempt, of any information of any Sprint customers or end-users by any means or device;
-This sig intentionally left blank
I reserve the right to defend my home by any legal means I see fit from unwanted intruders. This includes but is not limited to firing upon Sprint employees who feel they can somehow design and enforce a TOS that gives them free reign over my property if they appear on said property without my permission.
Have fun, Sprint. You would be wise to enforce that insane part of your TOS in an area where citizens aren't allowed to defend themselves though (NY, DC, etc)
:)
Finkployd
From the TOS [you may not]post, publish, transmit, reproduce, distribute or in any way exploit any information, software or other material obtained through Services for commercial purposes What? I mean I'm not an native english speaker so I might get something wrong here but that paragraph just seems ridicilous and quite over the top.
Still I like the part about not downloaded viruses
I just can imagine the support calls right now:
USER:Ummm, my computer behaves kinda strange and Mcafee says I got a virus, and yeah some files are missing
TechSupport: Bad luck pal, I'm terminating your account right now
"Mommy, mommy! The garbage man is here!" "Well, tell him we don't want any!" -- Groucho Marx
Many people may do that with other services, but with Sprint Broadband, you buy the equipment.
10.4 Sprint's failure to enforce strict performance of any provision of this Agreement will not be construed as a waiver of any provision or right. Neither the course of conduct between parties nor trade practice will act to modify any provision of this Agreement.
Which means that "if we get a complaint, we're gonna come down on you."
So, the best solution is to start complaining about people hosting Sprint-based servers, regardless of content. "My Dog Spot's Home Page (you are visitor # 000003)" running out of a Sprint network? Complain under section 7.1.21. Someone from a Sprint address sent you an e-mail? Complain under section 7.1.9. Flood the complaint department with bogus complaints, and get Sprint users all pissed off about Sprint's AUPping them. Raise the noise level so high that they have no choice but to raise the bar.
I suppose just posting this is be a violation of sections 7.1.1 and 7.1.13, or would be if I were a Sprint customer.
John
John
Come on, Sprint. Kick 'em off and enforce your normal TOS!
--
WolfSkunks for a better Linux Kernel
$Stalag99{"URL"}="http://stalag99.keenspace.com";
--
# Canmephians for a better Linux Kernel
$Stalag99{"URL"}="http://stalag99.net";
I ain't no lawyer, but I suspect your friend has been sniffing too much gunpowder. This is a private contract, not a government regulation. In exchange for subscribing to their service, you agree to their terms of service. After all, you could view Non-Disclosure Agreements as a restriction of one's First Amendment rights - that doesn't make them illegal.
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
post or transmit any information or software that contains a virus, trojan horse, worm or other harmful component;
The interprtation of this in the origonal piece is misleading. The above is taken from the agreement and nowhere does it say 'download'. It says 'post or transmit' which is not the same as download. However, there is a difference between knowingly and unknowingly transmitting a virus.
With all these servers that you were running, were you purchasing their residential or business service?
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
While I think they've gone a bit too far (though it seems to be primarily written to legally cover their own ass for instances where countries like France try to shoot the messenger) most of it seems pretty reasonable and it seems like they're giving themselves a clear legal mandate to boot abusive users off the service. Personally I'd love if providers started kicking port scanners off their system as it is irritating, and a complete waste of bandwidth, for thousands of little script kiddies to sit there doing nmap -p 1-55000 24.0.0.0/32 all day. Argue all you want about your right to port scan but the reality is that you have no such right to probe other people's computers for vulnerabilities like that. Go out at 2 in the morning and try all the door knobs in your neighbourhood and see what sort of treatment it gets you. "But I was only trying to improve security!".
As far as the limitations on hosting it sounds very similar to most @Home TOS agreements which basically say you can't run servers for anything. Of course they're not really trying to prohibit that (and indeed they can easily block incoming port 80, etc., but they don't), they're just giving themself legal recourse. The prices that people are paying is based upon average, amateur fair use and when someone sets up a 24/7 Napster server alongside their FTP server, website, IRC server, etc., they begin unfairly consuming an inordinate and completely financially unjustified amount of bandwidth. Compare the price of an unmetered T1 which technically has less bandwidth than my cable modem. Is someone stupid to pay that much more? Not at all. One is meant to be saturated with services, the other is financially created as a burst service for the Average Joe.
Nope, sorry--I don't buy it.
They could explicitly state in their TOS that the end user is solely responsible for their behaviour, and that they refused to take any responsibility. That's the way most companies work, and it generally keeps them safe. Furthermore, a ruling a month or so ago in the US declared port scans to be legal, so why are they banning them?
Finally, "posting vulgar information" is banned. I don't think there's any legal definition of vulgar, so who the hell decides? Oops, I think I just crossed the line by saying "hell."
This policy stinks of dead fish. There are NO excuses for it!
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
Well, they'd have to do massive surveillance if they wanted to catch you viewing pr0n, but most of the other things are pretty easy to detect at the firewall level. Even if you have firewalled your own machine, you have to leave ports open if you want to run web/ftp/game servers of any kind.
Essentially what they're saying here is that they don't want to be in the business of actually selling bandwidth. That's why you get 300+kbytes/sec down and only about 15kbytes/sec upload. They don't want you to have any more 'pipe' than they can get away with, even though it doesn't really cost them (the big guys who actually own the infrastructure) any more. This is because if you actually could buy cheap bandwidth like this, it would mean that all their overpriced 'hosting' and 'broadband' solutions would look like what they really are: Big Stinking Piles of Customer Service.
The next Slashdot story will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and slashdot the links early!
These companies have better things to do, anyway - like come up with hours and hours of Muzak to numb your brain while waiting on hold...
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
Given the lack of trustworthyness of some companies and individuals, this is not unreasonable.
As an old friend of mine once said, when you see a psycho two things can be going on. Either the psycho really is psycho, or their enviroment is psycho, and they as just trying to cope.
This certainly applies to work environments, as we all know. And it goes deeper.
Over the past few years many companies have down sized, eliminating many levels of managers. These have since gone off and retired, or gone into other fields of activity, like programming, dot coms, etc. They will not go back. The very extreme example of this are overseas contractors who come to the US, ignorant of US Law, culture, and mores. They are sometimes hired by pointy haired bosses to do the things that no decent manager would do, as far as treatment of employees, customer service, etc goes.
We now come full circle, imagining this kind of manager combined with this kind of TOS agreement. It is very easy to run screaming into the hills. After all, this is for "our benefit". It is even conceivable that someone like this wrote this TOS Agreement.
Is this likely? I'm am not sure. I so much want to give people the benefit of the doubt.
But Murphy's Law certainly applies here.
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
So far they haven't complained about the stuff I'm running, and I doubt the will. It takes quite a bit of effort to police this stuff.
I was a beta tester for a similar service in Austin, TX from a company called Nobell. Their prices have gone up since they are no longer beta testing but I still would highly recommend them.
Anyway, the Sprint BBD is fast and reliable. The signal is only a couple of watts I would guess judging on the distance to the tower I'm pointing to (I have LOS to a hill in San Bruno). If anyone has questions about the service or you are contemplating getting it, email me and I'll explain wireless broadband to ya.
I had an apartment contract that said I could be evicted if I had guests after 2AM.
I then realized two things:
1) Most parts of a TOS (or lease) are an easy-escape-clause for the vendor.
2) READ ALL AGREEMENTS YOU SIGN
The question, of course, becomes "what constitutes a troublemaker."
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
There are a large number of blatant inaccuracies in the summary postedon slashdot - makes me wonder if anyone even bothered reading the TOS before whinging?
(1) There is NOTHING in the TOS to stop you using anon email - you may not impersonate OTHERS, but it does not stop you using anoon email.
(2) "Sprint can access your house at any time"?? No, Sprint,like almost every other provider of services (inc phone, gas, electricity, etc) have the right to access your premisis DURINGNORMAL WORKING HOURS in order to install, remove, upgrade or repair the equipoment - certainly not, as some paranoid posters would have you believe, to spy on you! What they aresaying is that you have to let them in, you can't tell them to piss off if they come to remove the equipment, nor can you tell them to go away if they come to install, for example. Nope, nothing there about them having the right to breakin, though. More paranoia from those not reading the post.
(3) Their list of stuff you can't send, if you READ IT PROPERLY, explains that wehat they are saying is that you can't do anything illegal. They even SAY THAT. How hard is that to understand, hmm? Doesn't sound too unreasonable to me - if they DIDN'T say you can't do that, then they have no legal means to kick you off if you break the law.
I REALLY wish people woudl read posts before flaming away - a good 50% of the posts so far are rendered irrelevant if you read the original TOS!!!
--
People should not be afraid of their governments - Governments should be afraid of their people.
Remember, all contracts are negotiable. A lot of people don't realize this. I almost never sign boilerplate TOS or leases, or anything else without making changes. Each TOS they sign is an individual contract. If you don't like something, scratch it out and initial it, and maybe even date it. Scratch out the whole freakin' contract if you want.
:)
When it comes time for them to accept it, either they will just as a matter of procedure, or they will call you and ask what the changes are. You can then negotiate with an agent of the company (like a manager) about the changes. But if they just accept it and file it away without looking at it, then set up and install your service, you are golden. If something happens months later you can go back to the modified contract that you both have a copy of as proof that you didn't agree to certain things.
I have done this dozens of times, from housing contracts with my college, to DSL service, to gas service, to apartment leases, to even ski lift ticket agreements and parachute jump liability waivers.
Don't be fooled. Absolutely everything is negotiable. This is one of those really sweet things about our legal system that everyone should learn. INAL, but check with one and they will tell you this.
You buy the equipment but if you fail to pay the termination fee (of $299) you down't own the equipment. In other words, you don't actually own the equipment, you are borrowing it. This claus allows them, however, to refute any repair or service to the device (typically if you lease or loan the equipment, repairs and replacements are gratis).
Another:
In other words: don't expect any kind of refunds for any kind of downtime.
Everything else seems pretty standard: you, the client, can't do anything except browse their homepage and they aren't required to enforce anything. Really, its all the same as everyone elses... until...
Hrmm.. I've never seen "as available" basis before. I think they've learned from the cable companies...
Nice one.. charge 'em for tech-support.. lower the monthly bill then please.
What the FUCK is that? I have never seen anything like this before. And it will survive termination or cancellation of the agreement AND, even if you move, they can still enter the premesis. I would really like to see this one get tested. That can't be right, not at all. They _should_ have reasonable access during scheduled appointments but I don't want some sprint dork on my porch demanding entry. That is unfair and plain wrong.
Oh well, maybe it's just me... But at least I know I'm not signing up for sprint...
Price, Quality, Time. Pick none. What, you thought you had a choice?
Lets have contest to see who can simulaneously violate all 21 elements of section 7.1?
:-)
I'm thinking along the lines of a virus that scans the affected system's disks, replaces the word `copyright' with `screwyou!' and forwards the files to other instances of itself on other afflicted machines. It then emails the machine owner with a forged From address and offers to remove itself if they make a payment in a particular Paypal account.
That covers all but two of the 21.
You can not portscan, probe
;-)
.jpg .gif etc that comes through their service...it would waste everyone's time and resources to do this since there is no way to tell if a file is pr0n or not through automated means...basically you would have to visually inspect each file which would be rather stupid anyway. I figure this is here to be able to kick the kiddie pr0n freaks off if they're discovered.
:-)
Uh...that's a good thing most sites will come down on you pretty hard if you are portscanning them...which you have no business doing anyway.
run game or Webservers of any kind
Well you can probably get away with running apache or something but I doubt they want you running a dot.com from their service
upload or download viruses, use anonymous e-mail
Well on the first point you shouldn't do that dum dum. If you really want to be uploading virii to plague mankind get an aol account.
view porno, post anything vulgar or hateful, you cant even encourage anything illegal.
If the first point is true then that's bad though I doubt that's true or possible to really monitor without looking at every
The hate stuff well again they could search for things like "the n word" and what not but again I doubt they'll do this...and encouraging illegal activity is against the law anyway as far as I'm aware...encouraging someone to go kill someone usually gets you in trouble...I could be wrong about this though...can someone help me out here?
Lastly, they restrict you from sending out spam,
Well good if you want to send out spam buddy then you don't deserve to be in the human community let alone the internet one...
They also reserve the right to enter your home or property, monitor your activities, and "share" your personal info with other companies.
Well, your phone company has the right to enter your home, so does your electric company, etc. The difference here is if you don't want the sprint people in your house then you cancel your service...somehow I doubt they're gonna want to come over for tea four nights a week. As far as sharing goes yeah that stinks but that's life if you don't like it complain to them and don't use it...just because a service is available doesn't mean you have to use it
Jon