Slashdot Mirror
Pluto Mission Apparently Cancelled
hey! writes "This just in at space.com -- new details of the Bush NASA budget.
It looks like the Pluto-Kuiper express has been cancelled -- possibly our last chance for centuries to get a closeup look at Pluto's atmosphere. As Jupiter moves out of position for gravity assist and Pluto moves further from the Sun it's atmosphere will begin to freeze.
My favorite line in the report -- ISS will get increased "consistent with a strategy of constraining space station cost growth." OK, they're talking about being pound wise and penny foolish, but you can't pass up an Orwellian straight line like that."
I never even expected to get past Uranus!
It may sound a bit greedy, but I always hoped I'd make it into space or at the least orbit before I died. At 26, what do you think the chances are? Maybe if I get bill-gates-rich I could fund my own flight...
:)
Pluto's cool, but I'd only give up the ISS if they found some sorta gravity-locked twin planet system orbiting each other
Blar.
Honestly, why would Bush want to spend money on a lovely project like looking at Pluto, that he won't be able to take credit for?
By giving the ISS more money, He can puff up his chest/ego by stating "I helped keep the ISS afloat by giving it more money." It'll sound real nice to the sheeple in 4 years when he tries to stay in office.
Call on God, but row AWAY from the rocks!
If the Administration hadn't expressed an interest in constraining budget growth of the ISS, I'd be worried.
Anyone want to post hard numbers on exactly how many billions of dollars the ISS is over-budget? How much of our "financial aid" to Russia has really been "please, take this bribe and keep Baikonur operating a little while longer"?
The ISS is hugely, massively overbudget. The Administration's expressed interest in constraining more costs is prudence, not Visigothism. Saying "this thing is already several billion overbudget, and we don't want to see it grow one dollar moreso" is a great deal different from saying "we're not going to give this the funding it needs".
While I'm adamantly in favor of the space program and long-term habitation in space, I'm not in favor of the idea (which some Slashdotters seem to agree with) that any level of funding is acceptable, and any constraint on funding is neo-Luddism.
Aliens on pluto are reportedly unhappy with the decision, as they can now not live up to a bet they made last year with the Martians to crash the probe. The Martians are said to be joyful over the news because pluto now has to change it's name to snoopy.....
________
Does anyone actually have a Java program designed to control air traffic, or for the operation of a nuclear facility?
[B]ut you can't pass up an Orwellian straight line like that.
Sadly it looks like they can. Science or the pursuit of knowlege is usually one of the first things to go in times of trouble. I am not an American, but I would hardly call the times in the U.S. "troubled". I fear that the constant downgrading of NASA is perhaps that warning sign of trouble.
There is simply too much "lack of caring" for scientific (or more specifically skeptical) thinking in North America, things like the "outlawing" of evolutionary instruction are, like the NASA "A Blueprint for New Beginnings" dangerous. Sure, the budget is 2% greater than 2001, but with the space station all the money is put towards that.
Expect to see even more "cheaper, faster" but not "better" space exploring craft in the future.
I have a bad feeling about this.
Try to hack my 31337 firewall!
If any one of the big American sports leagues were to be suddenly disbanded, the money that was going to be spent on salaries, merchandise, stadiums, and all the other stuff could most likely pay more than enough for us to not only get to Pluto, but to hook up a bunch of tow-rockets and bring it back home.
Space station program management would also shift from Johnson Space Center, Houston to NASA Headquarters in Washington under Bush's plan.
This is a travesty. "Washington, we have a problem." How stupid is that!?
--
python -c "x='python -c %sx=%s; print x%%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))%s'; print x%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))"
Regardless of how much is spent on ISS, it's still the US government cycling money through its own econony, with only minor leakage to our ISS partners. And the space program has been pretty good at producing research and technology that makes any cost worthwhile.
The ISS is a great first step. but not only as a space park. Like Mir before it, the ISS is helping the denziens of our planet construct more reliable orbital housing for the future.
I think this post was a joke. The "search for 'knowledge'" -- what is 'knowledge' or why is it in quotes? Why was this moderated insightful? Some people take themselves too seriously.
Pluto, by contrast, has a massive bang for buck: a few hundred million to visit an obscure and beautiful place on the edge of human consciousness. People appreciate probes too: just look at Sojourner and NEAR.
[/rant]
In 200 years, president George Bush XVIII is gonna be like, "aww WTF why couldn't George Bush II just finish the job the first time around now i have to deal with this crap"
Argh, I'm so frustrated. Bad day, just need to vent a little.
... but I doubt that over that time[centuries] period the composition of Pluto's atmosphere will ever be relevant in any practical sense.
This post isn't insightful. Some moderator has mistaken this for a thoughtful, considered statement balanced between two extremes.
Just to dissect this post a little:
When considered rationally, it's obvious that funding support for the ISS is much more important than research about the atmosphere of Pluto.
I doubt anyone can rationally argue the merits of one over the merits over another. Both sides have merits, and the powerful thing about science and research is that you don't know the value of those merits until it is tied in with other bits of knowledge.
Again, this isn't something one can judge except in hindsight. I can agree with the logic that we can't afford to send a probe to Pluto, I can't agree with the logic that the knowledge gained won't 'ever be relevant in any practical sense.'
Argh, I'm just pissed. Apologies to the readers who have to see this rant ^^
Geek dating!
GPL Deconstructed
Engineers, OTOH, apply the results of pure science and produce new technology.
Besides, it's not like science has been lax in providing the engineers with discoveries... this century has only seen the greatest growth of technological development in history.
Of course, none of this has anything to do with G. W. Bush. The space station has always been a public relations operation, as has the space shuttle and most of the rest of the manned space program (the technological spin-offs were just pleasant side-effects). You can't really blame George, though- he is just following the popular conception of what the space program is supposed to be. The ISS doesn't really provide the next step toward the moon or Mars- it's more efficient for a Mars mission to head out directly to Mars, rather than stop off at the ISS, but how is a politician supposed to know that when his science advisors are probably in favor of the PR operation?
--WH--
http://www.readonly.org
Let's see, 1.3 trillion dollar tax cut over 5 years, about 250 billion per year. Get rid of the $5 billion per year you're giving Gates and Buffet in tax cuts, and voila, NASA budget problem solved.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
- Gravity
- Been there
- Less complicated system
They could come up with some sort of dome that they use and have the shuttle transport and install it (it would be of a minimal size - bed rooms..). They just launch tons and tons of air canisters (enough for a few months) and then launch construction equipment.UPS Sucks
dimator writes:
... ), which has meant fierce competition instead of cooperation. Johnson, in particular, was run by the notoriously prickly George Abbey, who has just been bumped up to a non-job in NASA headquarters, after some 20 years (interrupted) of stubborn power.
>Space station program management would also shift from Johnson Space Center, Houston
>to NASA Headquarters in Washington under Bush's plan.
This is a travesty. "Washington, we have a problem." How stupid is that!?
Of course the Mission Control rooms at Houston's Johnson Space Center will remain right where they are. What is changing is that the JSC manager will no longer be virtually independent. One of the crippling problems with NASA over he years has been the feudal independence of the various centers (Houston, Marshall, Kennedy, Dryden, JPL
All this means is that Goldin is making sure nobody gets that powerful again anytime soon.
----
lake effect weblog
{Network engineer in Chicago--looking for work!}
Hopefully the Holiday Inn or Hilton will fill this void! I can see it now...lunar golf in the morning... moon buggy in the afternoon, cap it off with freeze dried dinner during earth-rise...
We have two many nuclear submarines going around in circles that really are not needed any more. How many times over is it necessary to destroy the Planet? We have enough power to destroy *all* life on Earth.
We have enough deterrants already, no need for more, why not pout this money into things that help humanity? Further the prospects of everyone on Earth, not hinder it with the chgance of total death. Can you imagine in 65 million years a new intelligence trying to figure out killed our species out? Was it an Asteroid? Nope. Oh my, it was there own weapons, they must have been primitive.
If you think that the threat has subsided, well it has to a point, but remember that in 1995 we came to within 2 minutes of Nuclear devastation due to a Norwegian weather rocket fooling the Russians into thinking that the US had launched a first strike against Moscow.
I am not saying we should scrap all the military assests, that would be silly, but we should cut back the white elephants and put that money into something more meaningful.
We have achieved more when reaching out exploring than we have any other way, in my ever so humble opinion.
StarTux
Estimated cost of national missile defense system: $ 60 billion.
In other words: The United States develop a "missile defense" system against "rogue states" which is known not to work. For this money, they could fly man three times to Mars and back. 'nuff said.
--
This particular budget cut is a travesty of magnificent proprtions. The celestial clock happens to be perfectly in tune with our technological advancement, to offer us this rare glimpse of our environment, as a species. To decide that we can't afford to redirect a few paltry resources to the task strikes me as narrow and crude. It's almost as if, as a species, we are too lazy to bother craning our necks a little to see what's outside the crib.
But it doesn't have to be this way. NASA isn't the only agency capable of sendiing the probe. in fact, maybe this feat could be accomplished on a voluntary basis? We have theories/plans for magical technology at our disposal, commercial support services to pester, potential launch capabilities and a wide variety of legal launch facilities around the world.
Consider: we have, just here at slashdot, the ears of a number of very technically capable individuals that might be persuaded to help create a Pluto Probe in an open sourced, ameteur manner. Corporate sponsorship would be soon to follow. Perhaps I haven't thought it out too carefully, but it is apparent to me that the potential to deploy a probe exists, despite the government.
::I will not moderate my opinions for your stinking karma
Ever think that maybe government involvement in space research is a bad idea. Check out Cato's conference on Space: The Free Market Frontier. Certainly a different perspective than would you get around here.
Stuart Eichert
Stuart Eichert
... They're increasing the NASA budget. Not by a huge amount, but 2% of 14 billion dollars is still a lot. :)
While in general I don't like Bush, (acually, loathe would be a better word) his head seems to be in the right place with NASA, although this still has yet to be proven in reality.
---
"No problem. I have the capacity to do infinite work so long as you don't mind that my quality approaches zero."-Dilbert
Actually what was invented during WW2?
The Jet Engine? Nope, invented in the 30's
The Rocket? Nope, again invented in the 30's (and maybe before).
All War did was make governments actually listen to the scientists, not something they do in Peace.
So, yes scrap a Boomer (as I believe they are the most expensive).
Unfortuantly Bush has already announced he wants to cut Scientific research so that everyone can have their Tax break.
>but seriously, in todays world.. where we >are reverting to a cold war like situation
I would not call the Iraqi's that great a threat, and the Chinese do not seem to want war...So who is the Cold War threat? I see no Russia type country under Despot like Stalin.
What has the Russians ticked is his idea of making a new Star Wars type defense system, which I believe actually breaks at least one treaty. I believe its called the NDF.
However, this seems to have some good details.
More money on space-based propulsion research (solar-electric and nuclear) and 'more robust' Mars explorers, for example. These are both quite important things. A big advance in propulsion could lower the cost of all solar system exploration and open up new possibilities. I'd really like to see some more succesful Mars missions like the Pathfinder.
I think the Pluto-Kuiper mission could not give much valuable information, when compared to the Europa Mission and Solar Probe. The Solar Probe was also cancelled. IMHO the Europa Mission is the most important of these three.
Just as Pluto is largely irrelevant now in the Grand Scheme of Things. Unless, of course, you'd like to stop and pick up a bag of dusty ice for your martini on your trip to Beta Lyrae. But then again, you'd probably have scores of other bodies to choose from in the Kupier Belt.
Far too much effort is being wasted in superfluous programs that have no real chance of every producing a usable application. For centuries,
the common man has supported the scientific elite in their search for 'knowledge', and now I think its time that the debt be paid back. Rather
than focusing on theoretical work, it is time for scientists to submit to their natural social role of technology providers.</i>
<p>
Heh. It's worth noting that theoretical work is invariably useful. Because when you prove that something exists in theory, (or disprove it even, which is equally useful) it usually ends up that it exists in reality, just not quite as neatly. This is especially true of physics and mathematics. Take Einstein's theory of general relativity... seventy years later, we're *still* finding neato things that prove that his theoretical work is practical reality. A hundred years from now, we'll be doing things with it that the man on the street will be able to use. Like quantum computers or funky rocket ships and stuff.
<p>
Oh btw... science isn't about providing technology or service to the general public. It's about satisfying curiosity. It's engineering that puts science to work for the general public.
---
"No problem. I have the capacity to do infinite work so long as you don't mind that my quality approaches zero."-Dilbert
-1 flamebait. and i guess i have to bite...i believe the correct term for this comment is "bullshit"
turn up the jukebox and tell me a lie
They mention the need for more "robust Mars missions", will this mean that they are going to teach them how to calculate?
:-).
What I would love to hear is this: "We dedicate ourselves to place a permanent human colony on another World by the end of the decade". Guess I am a Space romantic
Since pluto technically isnt a planet anymore and is more of an annoying asteroid that happens to be in the right place, why are we bothering to study it? its so far away, that it is of little or no use to us, its too cold to live on feasibly (not to mention too small) and the money is better off going to other programs (like it is NOW)
turn up the jukebox and tell me a lie
To quote the document which the Slashdot reference refers to:
To support a potential, future sprint to the planet Pluto before 2020, additional funds will be directed to key propulsion technology investments.
I think this is an excellent idea: The Deep Space 1 probe has already pretty much proven that ion drive works, and more interesting propulsion technologies exist on the drawing board. Not only the Pluto-Kuiper program will benefit from this (the Kuiper belt will still be there) but other probe programs as well (except maybe Moon probes, but they ain't that interesting anyway).
The whole budget thing seems to me like GWB is shaking a stick at NASA, saying that they must start to think about the commercialization of space, and to build more reliable stuff.
It isn't all bad, IMHO. It could be a lot worse.
I agree. It is really time to pay back. Consider the following theoretical work:
quantum mechanics is completely incomprehensible to a layman. Still, it has some quite useful applications, e.g. all modern computers. Without transistors, building a coffee machine or a microwave owen would be quite a trick.
electrodynamic theory is another good example of theoretical work. Design of AC devices would be almost impossible without it.
Of course, some engineers have done a hell of a work to apply these theories to real life.
Perhaps we all should pay back to scientist and engineers. After having developed all the hardware needed for slashdot, do scientist and engineers deserve something better than trollish posts advicing how they should do their work? That they allowed the stuff to be used for internet suggest that they actually don't.
Did you miss the part where Bush called for unilateral reduction in our nuclear forces? Or the part where he wants to kill funding for an entire generation of new weapons?
Given that Bush is moving a significant part of the Houston crew to Washington, D.C., I'd argue that this is entirely unfounded.
This way of thinking is called materialistic idelectualism (i wrote it correctly?) if i remember right. Basically it says that we should do research in anything that will give back usefull results. The russians tried this (Lysenko was the head of this movement), and failed misserably. The short time benefits of this way of research seem to be great. But in the long run u loose.
It needs a lot of care and thinking in order to get out of this kind of loophole.
noone.
There is no NDF treaty (at least past a draft stage), although there is a Nonproliferation and Disarmament Fund.
The ABM treaty is subject to withdrawal at any time with six months' notice, and whether it is still legally in force since the fall of the USSR is itself debatable.
This is insanely off-topic, but it's worth mentioning, because it comes up every time someone suggests we cut the nuclear triad to save mondo buckaroos:
Nuclear Forces Cost Virtually Nothing. In comparison to the conventional infrastructure, that is. Yes, the R&D for the B2, Ohio SSBNs, and Trident D5 were very expensive, but everything except the B2 pales in comparison what we're going to spend on the F-22, F-117, SeaWolf, and JSF.
Fundamentally, about the only significant cost-savings you can squeeze out of the Nuclear forces is not to build any more B2s (I think we have 1 scheduled for FY2002, at about $2B ). Cutting anything else is a tiny savings, since we've already done the research and paid for the hardware, and there is fundamentally very little there to begin with.
Yes, I'm very much for getting rid of the B2 force, and seriously cutting the MX/Minuteman deployments. But don't be fooled. These aren't going to save any significant money (doing both of the above might save a few hundred million/year, tops). Compared to the billions it costs to keep a single Carrier task force running, or an Armored Division prepped, this is peanuts. And remember, a huge amount of the military budget is personnel (pay, medical benefits, housing, et al), consumables (new ammunition, jet fuel, etc.) and R&D, all of which have very little to do with the nuclear forces.
If you're going to cut nukes, do it for strategic reasons. Don't be an idiot and think it will save any real money, though.
-Erik
There are always four sides to every story: your side, their side, the truth, and what really happened.
> And, sorry, we *can't* kill ALL life on Earth.
Not yet, but we are working on it!
According to NASA:
2000/09/13 - A NASA stop work order has been issued for The Pluto-Kuiper Express mission as currently envisioned. Further direction from NASA has been given to develop a new mission to reach Pluto before 2020.
Note that the date is last September, which is before the US Election debacle. To you Bush haters out there, please understand the facts of the situation before you immediately jump all over Dubya.
The US nuclear arsenal is less than 3,000 megatons of explosive yield. Russia's nuclear arsenal has been estimated to have a comparable yield. While this is enough, if properly targetted, to kill a large proportion of the humans on Earth, it isn't remotely enough to "destroy all life on Earth". As a point of reference, the eruption of Mt. St. Helens has been estimated to have released 450 megatons of energy.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
Am I afraid of nuclear war? No. No one is quite insane enough to start one. We've been on the brink of a nuclear disaster dozens of times in the last 50 years and no one has had the balls to go through with it. Am I afraid of nanites? Definitely. An entire population of these things could lie dormant for years in the bodies of your population until the time is right for the war to be executed. In seconds you could kill every man, woman, and child on an entire continent without harming one building, destroying one plant, or polluting the air with any toxins. It'd be pretty neat. I mean hell.. if I can think this sick fucking shit up, think of what the people in the Pentagon are thinking up! I don't WANT to see other people killed but that's their entire purpose in life. Their job is to kill people and break things and to be the best at it in the entire world. That's some scary stuff and a sad testiment to our society. Until humans can learn to get along we're just going to find better ways of killing ourselves. How pathetic we will seem to our ancestors 1000 years from now. We're still in the dark ages for all the scientific and cultural advances we've made in the last 1000 years.
Like NMD, I hope. However, Reagan and Bush senior did spend an awful lot of money on weapons development. Bush Jr:s advisors should realize that the world has changed a lot after USSR collapsed. However, people like Ashcroft and Helms are having a hard time getting to the 20th century, let alone 21st. NMD is boosting the militaristic factions is Russia. Do you think that would lead to overseas interventions? If, it would be more like Vietnam (in a larger scale), not Kosovo.
I think overseas interventions are generating anti-US sentiment (at least in Europe they do) and should therefore be reduced. We Europeans should take care of Balkans. After all it is a part of Europe.
It's amazing how ignorant the left seems to be of what Bush has been saying for the last eighteen months.
The vocabulary of politics is a little different in Europe. When we say 'Fundamentalist' we mean someone _really_ nuts, like Ayatollah Khomeini. Not much of your American 'Conservative Christian' type. So, what do you mean with left??
Bush Jr. doesn't get much press coverage in Europe. (Yes, there are actual human beigns even outside America. Some even write to slashdot.) We are much more intrested in people like Putin, who really could become a problem. There is not much Bush Jr. actually has said about US-European relations. If you have links, I'd really like to check it.
I think the old division to 'left' and 'right' is something I can not discuss. Here in Europe most people agree that the division to 'left' and 'right' is purely artificial. We used to have real communist parties striving for pro-Soviet foreign policy and against private property. Now these former 5th cols can not be distinguished from what used to be the 'right'.
Now we have a large center (white) and very marginal wings (green, red and black). I think our 'white' corresponds to democrats and moderate republicans. The black-wingers include everything from Bible-thumping 'conservatives' to real Nazis to Islamic militants to Nationalist militants (ETA, IRA, ...).
Red-wingers include anarchist militants, many old and dying commie extremist schools (maoists, stalinists, brezhnevists, trotskians, etc.)
Green-wingers are representing the new
'Environmental NIMBY'-type, that demands a better,
cleaner world, but opposing every change.
> When considered rationally, it's obvious that funding support for ISS is much more important
> than research about the atmosphere of Pluto.
First: We don't want to go there to examine the atmosphere, we want to research Pluto's surface. Wich won't work when the atmosphere is frozen and covers pluto.
Second: We haven't been there yet, so we don't know what we might gain by the Pluto-Kuiper express.
> Rather than focusing on theoretical work, it is time for scientists to submit to their natural
> social role of technology providers.
Well, let's go back a few thousand years and imagine King Willy or Queen Sally saying to their scientist: "Stop playing with numbers and looking to the stars and invent something so that our ships can navigate at high seas."
Or think about all those great scientist of the past (Galileo, Newton, Heisenberg, Einstein to name just a few) or *any* Mathematician - nobody of those tried to work as "technology provider".
Here's another example were *much* effort was wasted by a very popular program: The Gold-making. For centuries many, many people spend their whole live while searching for a simple way to turn some cheap material into gold. Only modern science has showed, that this just can't work.
"'Tis great confidence in a friend to tell him your faults, greater to tell him his." --Poor Richard's Almanac
The effects of 'nuclear winter' after massive nuclear warfare may kill much more than just mankind, since most forests will die in few years without a summer and then ocean life will collapse, too. This leaves virtually no room for highly-organized life as we know it, because oxygen concentration in the air drops dramatically without green plants, and low temperatures make most of now-flourishing regions deserts. Anaerobic forms of life still have good chances to survive, but all of those are very primitive.
Computers make very fast, very accurate mistakes
If you read the troll FAQ (sorry, don't have the link), you'll recognize this as a classic troll. First sentence is entirely reasonable, but, as the post progesses, it becomes more and more inflammatory. The closing line, "NASA is finally doing something useful.", is the closing barb...
If you don't believe me, check qpt's user info and look at his comment history. See how many -1's qpt has posted? There are also some 3's and 4's, suggesting that he's a pretty successful troll.
Just so I don't wander too far off-topic, I'll analyze and rebut one line:
Far too much effort is being wasted in superfluous programs that have no real chance of every producing a usable application.
Yeah, like quantum mechanics. Oh, wait, about a third of all technology invented in the past 50 years involves QM (directly or indirectly). Think semiconductors, high-temp superconductors, laser diodes...
And what the hell was up with those crazy Watson and Crick guys who were playing with a double helix? And that Newton guy...
I dare you to name a single scientific theory that's at least 50 years old and hasn't been useful.
I could go on, but it's just a troll. If you fell for it (as the moderators have), you should be ashamed of yourself.
My guess is that it's really aimed at taking China's ICBM's out of the game if there's a confrontation over Taiwan, but even that doesn't make sense (smuggled-in weapons render the world's best NMD system useless).
So, can anyone point me to a well-thought-out justification for NMD that convinces me to do something other than encourage my government to tell the US government to go jump when they ask to use the Australian bases for this (not that my encouragement will make a lick of difference, but . . . )
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
The latest I hared, is that Pluto still has planet status. So yes, it is a planet.
Will work for bandwidth
I for one am disappointed. I would have never expected the Bush administration to be hostile or indifferent to science.
Who cares if the next window for Pluto exploration with late-20th-century technology opens up in 2300? In a couple of decades, we'll be able to travel through space with proper drives anyway, and by 2100 we can probably just send a manned exploration craft to Pluto and back again in no time. The planet isn't that interesting, so the data can probably wait till then.
As a state gets corrupt, its laws multiply; the most corrupt states have the most numerous laws. (Tacitus, Annales 3:27)
I work at a university that shall remain nameless, we have a person there who is paid by both NASA and the University to do computer modeling and testing. Over a year ago he was given a fairly simple project: model what this piece of equipment would do in space so we can show a panel your findings, since the prototype won't be ready for a month or two. He's been working on this ever since I started there and he just finished about a month ago. The prototype had already been built, they knew from testing what it would do in space but he still had to finish his modeling before they could go any farther.
Does this sound like something that should have happened? From what I understand the local NASA branch is a joke, sure it does some cool things but about 50% of the people there could be axed with no problems, except they can't because it's a government job. The current joke where I work is "Get a job at NASA you'll never need to work again". It's almost unheard of to fire someone, and even worse if you're asigned a project and take forever to finish it, they won't yank it from you and asign it to someone else, they'll just wait for you to finish. Half of the stuff they do there doesn't even translate to the space program at all. If you really want a good space program start by streamlining NASA. Run it like a business, you could make NASA self sufficient and profitable.
Surely this would be a good project for solar sails, the solar wind is behind you all the way to Pluto, and no need for the gravity slingshots.
Your fact completely invalidates 95% of the /. comments on this article. Glad to see that some people still know what they're talking about, instead of just taking another propagandizing opportunity to make fun of "strategery".
OK, they're talking about being pound wise and penny foolish
For some reason I am looking more forward to a tax break than I was the Pluto mission....
love is just extroverted narcissism
Why cant the ESA or Japan or some other country pick up the ball and run with it if the US is not going to Pluto? Why does this have to be USA or no earth representation at all?
Arm yourself with knowledge.
I'm still trying to figure out what people mean by 'social skills' here.
Far too much effort is being wasted in superfluous programs that have no real chance of every producing a usable application. For centuries, the common man has supported the scientific elite in their search for 'knowledge', and now I think its time that the debt be paid back. Rather than focusing on theoretical work, itis time for scientists to submit to their natural social role of technology providers.
"The common man", at least in the industrial countries where most research is funded, lives a lot better today than he did 20, 50, or 100 years ago. Technology does not grow out of thin air, it is always backed by basic research. Yes, not all of basic research has yet lead to marketable products. But we do not have a magic looking glass that will tell us just which pieces of knowledge may be useful in the future.
As an example, number theory (the "queen of mathematics") was considered to be pure research, without any useful application until about 15 years ago. Now it forms the basic of most currently used cryptographic applications.
Stephan
. . . space exploration becomes subject to the vagaries of politics, and private alternatives are crowded out of the market. All of you who are so disappointed that the Pluto mission was canceled should be in favor of a tax cut, so you can have more of your own money to donate to or invest in a private mission (assuming it's still worth it to you when others aren't involuntarily footing the bill).
The first sentence is entirely "rational". That got you the first two mods up. The second paragraph is debatable, but something a lot of people can get behind. Another mod up.
The the kicker: "For centuries, the common man has supported the scientific elite in their search for 'knowledge', and now I think its time that the debt be paid back."
Something no rational Slashdotter (or human?) would agree with, modded up to 5. Brilliant! And then the closing humorous line covering your tracks against the slightly more savvy moderator. Perfect!
--
Non-meta-modded "Overrated" mods are killing Slashdot
Non-meta-modded "Overrated" mods are killing Slashdot
(Hey Ryan! Here's your proof!)
How is this funny? He doesn't even rhyme very well.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
...you can't possibly work in DC and be this naive...right? I see their handiwork every day, right in downtown DC.
Regarding congresspeople - the statement "They're there to listen to you" is SO off the mark. What they are there for is to desperately raise money and support so they don't lose their jobs in 2 years. This is not exactly a topic that's going to win them votes in 90% of the country.
If you still believe in your government, spend your time on the senators - at least they have a little breathing room before they prostitute themselves to the public again.
Place your time, effort and money on lobbyists, if you ever want to see this go through. Or journalists - they seem to be able to drum up hype quite effectively....
I think it is if not a really great idea, at least a good compromise and to delay a Pluto probe.
While I am neither a propulsion scientist nor a molecular chemist, it does seem likely that setting themselves a tangible goal for next generation propulsion systems is good.
Likewise, it will make a lot more sense (of course, maybe too much worrying about "sense" when we should be thinking "pushing the envelope") to colonize the moon with nanoscale technology in perhaps 20 years.. this apparently passes up the human dramas that marked the world's space exploration efforts, of great adventure and risk on the bootstrap limb of history.
I'm pretty worried about cutbacks made in the first months of 2001 as it shows the new President of the United States, and his constituency by and large, do not share this sense of wonder or focus on learning as a species, of self-evolution. If they did in an organic, willful way I'd think people would feel an overwhelming urge to encompass the entire solar system and out to the Oort clouds in the sweep of an arm and say, We have been there and it is ours to give to our children.
It seems inevitable that no matter how much or little NASA may be doing, a contracting economy and provincialism require NASA to provide evidence of belt-tightening as well. My hopes are that the science and fiction on which we feed ourselves here makes itself true by realizing a manifest destiny kind of story in the first half of the twenty-first century.
It seems evident that the way we are teaching each other to think through Slashdot and similar media (well it looks that way surfing at 3..) must have a significant effect on the way this story unfolds, through philosophy, attitude to technology, political voice, and "Can do" spirit. I think some of this must be present in space entrepreneurs. They must be intent.
I'd say that in our networked lives that reach around the world to share information while at the same time, drilling down at solving the problem at one's own feet in gritty software code, we're playing an important part of building the foundation for this future and we must not imagine that we are not involved. Let intellect and vision lead our vacillating planet! How old do you intend to be when you call the Moon?
If you take a look at the budget for NASA, they do cut some aspects of the ISS.
The cost growth is offset in part by redirecting funding from remaining U.S. elements (particularly high-risk elements including the Habitation Module, Crew Return Vehicle, and Propulsion Module).
That's right... we don't want those astronauts (whose education and training also cost a pretty penny) in a safe place to live, and in case there's something wrong with it, we don't want to give them a safe ride home.
p.s. http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/usbudget/blueprint/ budtoc.html is the location of the index of the budget documents. George W must be afraid of those evil index.htm(l) files...
The phrase "... Pluto moves further from the Sun," should read "... Pluto moves farther from the Sun." Remember to use "farther" when referring to a physical distance. Now will someone please point out any errors I have just made in this reply? Thanks.
-- Boycott Shell
Pluto's not a Real Planet (tm) anyway.
-Shakespeare The Merchant of Venice
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Woah people, why is this bad? Sure if supplies and engineering talent was unlimited we should send something to pluto. They are not however. Supplies are finite, and other then it is there, there is no compelling reason to go to pluto.
Everyone has their own ideas of what to spend money on. Personally I want to spend my own money as I see fit. What will going to pluto gain us that we don't have already? What is on pluto that we need to go study? So far it just looks like a "because it is there and this is the best time for the next few hundred years" arguement. I've been looking at a new linux laptop, and a tax cut would help me get it. (Now I agree that over the all the people in the US the pluto mission isn't very significant, but a billion here and a billion there and soon you are talking real money which is significant over the population of the us.
Of course there will have to be two women for every man.
(Sorry, my evil left hand typed that).
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Several points:
- The TTAPS study has been fairly discredited as an over-simplistic analysis. .
.
- Specifically:
- It assumes far longer "hang times" for atmospheric particulates than observed reality
- It assumes far higher levels of small particulates than found in observed reality
- Worst of all, it was a one-dimensional static analysis
- In short, it was great copy, but lousy science.
- The most likely outcome of a massive nuclear conflict would approximate that of the Thera Explosion or Krakatoa: one season with a short, cold summer, primarily in the Northern Hemisphere, where, oddly enough, 90+ % of the targets are. .
.
There's an interesting page on Nuclear Winter, Nuclear Summer, and other variants here.Mind you, I saw things from two perspectives: as a student geologist from the early 1980's, and as a Strategic Air Command Bomber Crew member in the mid- and late-1980's. . .
snip
Highlights of 2002 Funding
snip
Did I read wrong, or is Bush actually INCREASING the budget for some majour programs? And privatizing space flight? There is strong support for the argument that privatizing space flight will send us forward by leaps and bounds, because of the increased funding, the increased safety requirements, and the increased interest (competition, etc).
Truth be told, NASA isn't getting enough. But when Bush actually increases their budget, rather than decreasing it like I feared he would, I think he deserves a little credit. True, some of the bazillion dollars given to military could have gone to NASA, but at least he increased spending on space stuff!
So don't be so quick to criticise Bush on this one; he seems to be doing NASA a favour this time.
Forager
student of animation and the fine arts
If science were restricted to the "practical" and "important" it would never have gotten anywhere. Look at all those mathematicians over the years who were working on brining mathematics to its current level. 90% of that had no practical application at the time. Yet all of our modern technology is based on such Mathematics. As for the common man getting his reward from the "scientific elite" what do you call the computer you used to post that peice of crap? Your TV? Modern Medicine? Automobiles? GPS? Cell Phones? If it weren't for those "scientific elites" the majority of our population would be subsistence farmers plowing their feilds with horses and iron plows. Oh yea, we'd all be doing this in Europe, cause we wouldn't have a clue the Americas were here.
Why?
Where's a mine-shaft gap when you REALLY need it ??? (evil grin)
It really saddens me to see how the space program has gotten shoved in the background over the past decade or two. Sure, it's a horrendously expensive endeavor in the short term, but I can't think of ANY better long-term investment, with returns in technology, economic wealth (I'd wager there's gold - and things even more valuable - in them there asteroids), and essential resources (stick a big array of solar panels in orbit, and you've got insane amounts of free energy, forever). And with overpopulation and global industrialization progressing at their current rate, humanity better start thinking NOW about where it's going to go as a species once things start to get truly shaky, even if that's a century or two down the road. Getting lots of people off the planet, one way or another, looks like the best long-term option from my perspective.
In the short term, too, I think the space program has many benefits. It gives people something to dream about, and a way to express the pioneer spirit now that all of available land masses on earth have been more or less spoken for. When I was growing up, in the late 70s-early 80s, the space program was one of the first things to get me REALLY fired up about learning. Following the progress of the Voyager missions, the Mars probes, and the first Space Shuttle flights was utterly mind-blowing. I suspect that these interests had plenty to do with my getting interested in computers, which has proved rewarding in all sorts of ways. But then, a few years later, between the arms race of the cold war and the explosion of the Challenger, the U.S. cooled off on the space race, and hasn't regained the same momentum since.
There are plenty of arguments that money for the space program can be better spent. Not just on increased military spending and tax cuts for the rich, but for things like food and education. How can a nation spend billions building space probes when so many of its own people are going hungry, homeless, and without medical care? That's a sticky question.
But in the long term, I think that if anything holds the keys for humanity's long-term success as a species, it's probably the space program.
Note to President Bush: if you succeed in getting me that $1600 tax cut you've talked about, you can send my share to NASA. They've got much cooler things to spend the money on than I do.
All your mp3 are belong to us.
Well...according to this headline a few days ago, he did. Using the most lienient standards btw.
w s/ herald_ballots010226.html
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/DailyNe
"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad
The Anti-Blog
Maybe the military should sponsor some space projects. They probably still get more money than they have projects to spend it on - but I doubt they are going to let on.
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
To those of you bitching and whining: Instead of depending on Uncle Sugar for everything, why don't you organize an effort to privately fund a probe? If it's that important, you shouldn't have any trouble raising the funds.
Oh, I see, it's important, not not important enough to do anything personally.
--
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
Much of today's understanding of molecular biology would not be possible without evolution.
For instance, in the human genome, only a portion is known to code for proteins. Although some of the remaining junk DNA may, in fact, have a biologically significant role, much of it does not.
It follows, from evolution, that since the biologically insignificant DNA will not code for genes, a mutation in a portion of junk DNA, will not, in general, deleteriously affect the physiological health of the resulting organism. Since no deleterious effects ensue, it follows that the reproductive success of the organism will not be affected by this mutation. One can then use data about the composition of a segment of DNA to locate putative genes.
It is well known that the amino acid composition of proteins in determined triplets of bases. It is also well known that there is considerable redundency in the genetic code-- there are 20 amino acids, and 64 possible combinations of 3 bases (A,C,G,U/T). Some amino acids are only coded for by one codon, others by two, three, four or six codons.
Take Alanine, for instance. Four possible codons exist, GCU, GCC, GCA, and GCG. The last base is esentially redundent. (This sort of redundency is a major motif of the genetic code.)
Now suppose that a protein contains alanine at a certain point. The gene will code for that specific amino acid at that point, with the codon GCG. Suppose that a mutagen comes along, and changes one base to a Thiamine.
Thus, the new gene contains either TCG, GTG, or GCT. The first codes for Serine, the second for Valine, and the third for Alanine. The first and second mutaions will cause the "wrong" amino acid to be incorporated in the protein, possibly impairing that protein's function. The third codes for the correct protein.Thus, DNA is partially third position redundant. In many cases, the third position is not contrained by evolutionary pressures, since a mutation at that point will not affect reproductive success. Hence, that mutation may be transmitted to offspring.
Now, a lingering problem in genomics, is that proteins may be coded in six different reading frames-- three different frames for the positive and negative strands of DNA. If one can incorporate the fact that the third position of some codons is not evolutionarily constrained, one can use that knowledge to devise algorithms for gene finding.
That would be "penny wise, and pound foolish" meaning that they are really careful about the cost of dixie cups, while spending a bajillion dollars on every shuttle launch to watch how bacteria and mice do in space. Which will come in handy when we start building all those space TCBY and pet stores.
"Hmmm. The mouse is *floating* and seems to be incontinent. Slight muscle atrophy.... JENKINS!!! Are you writing this down!!??"
"UUuuhhh yessiryessir... atrophy in muscles... peeing... yup got it."
Granted, not by much (about a 2% increase for each) but remember this is an increase over arch-liberal Clinton's budget numbers. If an increase over democrat-level spending isn't enough, I don't know what is.
By the way, this is consistent with both Reagan's and G.H.W.'s support for the space program...
Karma: Bored. (Thinking about resurrecting the "Anyone else is an imposter" joke.)
When I was in school I worked at the UMich Space Physics Lab. I also took a grad level Aerospace design course that was writing a paper (er.. book) in response to a JPL RFP for a Pluto mission.
We found out a lot of interesting things. Probably the most relative to this article is that we did it all with a $200 million budget cap - including the launch vehicle (Delta II - which had just suffered 2 explosions in Motorola launches).
If I remember correctly we figured a minimum mission time of 6 years to Pluto and a max of 18 with the optimal being around 14 or so. The launch date had to be before 2005 I think too. Anyway, Pluto's atmosphere is going to collapse in something like 2015 and if we don't get there before then it makes it nearly impossible to be able to do a lot of the main science objectives.
Also interesting is that our data rate using a 2.5m antenna and receiving on the deep space network (before the upgrades of the last few years) would have been about 240bps. Bits.. not kilobits. It would have taken about 9 months collect 2GB (bits or bytes... I forget what it was..)
----- obSig
I rather see all missions completed. There's enough monney on this planet to take the ISS to visit pluto ! It's just spend on the wrong things.
-- I don't need PGP, dyslexia encrypts my mail and makes it unique.
We have enough deterrants already, no need for more, why not pout this money into things that help humanity? Further the prospects of everyone on Earth, not hinder it with the chgance of total death. Can you imagine in 65 million years a new intelligence trying to figure out killed our species out? Was it an Asteroid? Nope. Oh my, it was there own weapons, they must have been primitive.
I can tell you were never in a submarine...
Before you go announcing we have too many submarines, answer me these questions:
- What is the expected number of submarines to be lost upon beginning of hostilities?
- What is the expected number of surviving subs who will recieve launch orders?
- What percentage of those subs will launch?
- For each launching sub, how many missles will it get off?
- For each launched missle, how many warheads will reach their target and detonate?
Now, based on that consider this fact: you must insure the final number is sufficient to destroy the enemy for deterance to work and insure that many missles are on station at all times. To do this you have X submarines.Right now we do that with 18 Tridents, At any given time two will be in for long term maintenace, leaving 16. Four to six of those will be inport turning over crews . That means about 11 subs cover this need. If you take away two you decrease that by nearly 20%, which will lead to about 25% longer cruises for the remaining crews.
Right now a boomer run is normally about 90 days, with my shortest having been 83 and the longest I remember any one doing being 113. You are saying we should bump this up to around 113 normally and probably move the record to 130 days. While Tridents are hotels compared to the old 616/640s I served on, I still would not want to do >100 days deployed on one (believe it or not, astronauts on the ISS have more contact with the outside world than a boomer's crew).
Unless you wish to contend that deterance is no longer needed, you should think about the issues driving the number of warheads and launch systems in place instead of just falling back on the "we can destroy the world X times" arguement about force size. It is more complex than that.
Herb
Herb
Again, feel free to sentence me to death if my questions annoy you. I'll come back in 5 minutes anyway. -Sythi
If the original poster would've looked at the article immediately below the one he's refering to, he'd see that they are talking about increasing money for propulsion programs (among many others). They specifically mentioned solar, nuclear, and other forms of propulsion that have been languishing for decades (particularly nuclear). They also specifically said that this would allow a future Pluto mission to get there quickly (arrival at Pluto happening nearly as quickly as called for by the original plan).
Justify that. Why do we lack the ability? Ending your comment with a one-liner doesn't make you smart, it makes us think your argument is probably too weak to type.
toeslikefingers.com - because
What has it got to do with energy?? Nothing! It's got to do with the after-effects of radiation that lasts for several million years (or thousands if we're lucky) and the destruction of our ability to receive sunlight on earth!
And if the entire explosion was in one place, it might not be so bad. If it's distributed over a hemisphere, which it ould be, it's far worse! The wind can't blow it away when there's nowhere for it to go.
toeslikefingers.com - because
If we take all the proceeds from the "ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US" merchandise, we could finance NASA enough to get a human on Pluto.
;-)
Sorry Ed.
Yeah, weren't they using old-fashioned liquid helium metallic superconductors?
Doing it with modern liquid nitrogen superconductors would probably be much cheaper.
---
This link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_ 1196000/1196688.stm) shows why the study & exploration of space is so important.
This meteor; which fell today on the historic city of York in the UK, was smaller than a golf ball, yet still left a crater 1 meter deep and 15cm wide.
The long term survival (and development) of the Human species is inexplicably link to the exploration of space.
food for thought A meteor the size of a football would level a house; one the size of a car would level a city; one the size of a house would level the planet.
I'm not a conspiracy theorist by any means, but do you really think they'd admit just how much firepower we have? One of the prime issues in the missle defense system is not the threat of a superpower like Russia, but rogue states like Iraq, India, or even China developing long range weapons capable of reaching and causing mass-destruction in the U.S. Never mind the merits of that, but in light of the potential threats of such nations, do you really think the *real* answer as to how much firepower we have is just going to be right there available to everyone in the world? "Hey, guys, come and get us, this is all we've got!"
Sure, "all we've got," according to those numbers is still quite a bit; I just doubt, in the interest of national security, that the actual figure is anywhere near that.
"I say consider this day seized!" -Hobbes
"Tomorrow we'll seize the day and throttle it!" -Calvin
- fact
that there are only eight planets in the Solar System.wot's this, then?
"people called Romanes, they go to the 'ouse?"
--
All those people out there talking about how disappointed they are don't offer much in the way of solutions. One person said why doesn't Japan or ESA do it? Well, money! How about that for an answer. If it was such a walk in the park why don't the techy nerds of the world unite to do it themselves!? You need money and resources. Does anyone out there have any? Come on, lets get the ball rolling. We'll do it ourselves in our free time. Does anyone have a plasma drive handy? I'm sure we could get a proton from the russians cheap! Hey, we'll write all the code in LINUX and C!!!! Woo Hoo!!!!! Hey, maybe we can convince the Lord of Darkness Bill to fund it. Although we would have to write on NT and use visual basic. We'll tell him that we can land the probe and claim it in his name. He could change the name to Little Bill! Oh, wait that one's probably already taken!
Damn, I'm tired of hearing all these ridiculous announcements! "Bush administration will cancel funding of abortion groups" "Bush administration will cancel Pluto mission" Fuck, this gets me down. People actually think these are good ideas.
-raph
Also: First FP for this calendar month, another sublime accomplishment by your humble revolutionary hero.
(How can we do this, you ask? Volume. Why do we do this, you ask? For great justice. Some people are content merely to remove "zigs", or perform main screen turnons, but not yr fearless PTADH fp guy, laws no--I go the extra mile to ensure pure quality for YOU, the reader and end user. It's my duty to please that booty, you masochistic beauty.)
props to all live homiez
props to all dead homiez
His disclaimer stated "...I THINK he stole the presidency" (emphasis mine). The man can think what he likes. I think we stole it and I'm damn glad we stole it. That's a childishly simplistic summation of my own highly biased opinion, hardly worth a fruitcake to anyone but me.
As for being fair, his fairness was highly evident. Admirably so.
I hope that when the tables are turned, I can be half as fair.
**>>BELCH
Don't we have quite a few satelites speeding through the solar system already? It would take some work and a lot of luck, but it might be possible to redirect one of those. Heck, Saturn isn't undergoing any major changes anytime soon, is it? Send Cassini! We have lots of time to watch the other planets.
NASA hasn't been thinking ahead. Why didn't they choose to hit Pluto years ago?
Remember "Bring 'em on"? *sigh
"deterrants"
"why not pout this money into things "
"chgance"
"Can you imagine in 65 million years a new intelligence trying to figure out killed our species out? "
"it was there own weapons"
"military assests"
Frankly, if the funds are diverted from NASA's excessive spending and into basic education then I have no problem with a few cut-backs. ;)
The REAL jabber has the /. user id: 13196
The REAL jabber has the user id: 13196
What you do today will cost you a day of your life
I hate President Bush we have an oppurtunity to do something monumental and he wont let us. I guess he just doesnt want us to see where he is realy from...now does he!
The Portuguese were entirely right, by their own way of looking things, to send Columbus packing. It was Spain that became the great empire.
Actually Columbus was a crackpot. His calculations had the Earth lots smaller. He intended to arrive to Japan from Europe. The scientific commitees in Castile voted rightly against the project. It's a mistery how he convinced the royals. Maybe he had a secret proof that there was earth to the West. But it's not in the official documentation.
And if you want to evaluate, Macau was returned to China in 1998. Spain lost Cuba, Puerto Rico and Guam in 1898.
The Portuguese way (small trade posts instead of resettlement colonies) was changed when they found Brazil. Then they built the empire.
__
__
Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
GW Bu
I thought it was seven taking hold of one man . . . wasn't it. I was kind of looking forward to that.
this sig is deprecated
-nt
I'm still trying to figure out what people mean by 'social skills' here.
Sculpturing, like, mount rushmore (sp?)
I'm still trying to figure out what people mean by 'social skills' here.
Here's the point: Yes, you're right. But if we're reduced to extraordinary bacteria, I don't think argyments like this well have meant much to them.
toeslikefingers.com - because