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NCR Claims Palm Infringes As "Personal Terminal"
Davis King writes: "NCR is claiming that two patents it received in 1987, for a 'portable personal terminal for use in a system for handling transactions' cover the palm pilot; it's suing Palm and Handspring for patent infringement. Yet another company trying to get ahead with lawyers instead of with engineers." According to the article, "NCR asked for a jury trial on its demands that Palm and Handspring be blocked from making any more of the products, and that NCR be awarded compensatory and actual damages." What about my patent for a "medium-sized length of rope for use in jumping"?
Dude, doesn't anyone here follow Palm. The most noise Palm has been making lately has been about using Palm devices to make financial ***transactions***. Remember that news release about the coloboration between Palm and VISA/Mastercard? Who do you think currently makes most of these point of sale terminals. Hmmm... can you spell NCR. Who do you think currently makes the portable devices that work with a lot of these terminals. Hmmm... can you spell NCR. This is a very valid patent. My belief is that NCR wanted too much, either in terms of control or money, from Palm. Therefore the resulting lawsuit. While I don't expect NCR to lose this case, I fully expect the outcome to be NCR becoming an *investor* in Palm.
Oh wait... I forgot, they don't make anything anymore...
MY BAD!
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"Don't trolls get tired?"
- A.P.
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* CmdrTaco is an idiot.
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
If only it had a power function...
I've noticed that. I've had to buy 3 in the last 8 years. (Every time the darn plastic hinge cracked and there was no way to reattach the wrist band.) The first two were identical, and the 3rd added a prominent "Light" button and a metal wrist band (but still a cheap plastic housing that will probably crack in another year.)
not to mention the fact that these would only seem to apply to a palm with specific software to handle transactions . . .
ANd even if that were so, tricorders are real
while I'm at it, this patent is running out of time, anyway . . .
I thought the reality of tricorders was common knowledge . . . why else whould Spock use them so openly?
I wish I'd kept the link for the ping-pong balls . . .
Federal rules require a jury to be demanded at every stage, or it is waived. This doesn't mean that they want a jury, just that they aren't ready to be precluded from the possibility.
hawk, esq.
They do make devices as well. Heard of the Palm Vx, Palm IIIxe, Palm M100, or Palm VIIx? In fact they also OEM devices for IBM. No really. They do. Honest. I have one right here.
They also made the OS, and license it to Sony, Handspring, Symbol, TRG, etc.
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If your map and the terrain differ,
trust the terrain.
If they were seriously after patent infringers, what about Microsoft and their gang of WinCE/PocketPC manufacturers?
Sounds like a moribund company trying to steal some free PR and possibly some settlement money, while staying away from antagonizing fish that are big enough to bite back...
Yo! And sue those scumbags Osborne and KayPro who each put out a ``portable personal terminal for use in a system for handling transactions'' in 1980! I know they did it because I personally wrote an MBASIC data-acquisition program that ran on these impertinant clones of fabulous ideas! And those Husky Hunters! ``Portable personal terminals'' that you could park a car on without damage... oh, the cheek of it!
And, oh, uhhh... you say that the patent was granted in 1987... Ooh, um, err...
I think I'd better hurry off and write an xterm that has a beep in the prompt to tell you it's ready for input, before NCR patent the idea. Anyone remember those? Nothing like a roomfull of students using an NCR machine that's so slow it has to wake you up when it wants input...
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Right. And does that mean I can start sending invoices to the men who ended up marrying my ex-girlfriends? After all, without my spectacular crash-and-burns, how would they have known what to avoid? Think of it as an inverse patent -- I come up with a way to do something badly, and then go around suing people who figured out how to do it right. That would be like Edison getting sued by the developers of gaslights.
(I am, of course, making an exception for the poor schmuck who ended up with Angela. But he paid dearly enough for emulating my bad business model.)
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Proud member of the Weirdo-American community.
I don't think NCR will sue Microsoft. After all, Microsoft has several cross-licensing deals with NCR, and that may include Personal Digital Assistants (PDA's). That's how come MS could develop Windows CE for PDA's without being sued by NCR.
Also, NCR will not sue Apple, either. Given Apple's views in regards to patent and copyright laws, I'm sure Apple may be gotten a license on the NCR patent before developing the Newton PDA in the early 1990's.
Raymond in Mountain View, CA
This patent shit is patently foolish. Of course to a lawyer, the definition of better is as good as (I'm not making this up folks!) so you have no idea what barbarisms they've committed and will continue to commit in the pursuit of legal fees.
We're talking intellectually, morally and ethically bankrupt individuals with no justification for their continued consumption of oxygen.
This suit against Palm & HandSpring is about as stupid as I can imagine but since they patent software and business methods in this country (but blessedly nowhere else on this planet,) the lawyers crawl out from behind the fridges in poor neighbourhoods and will scurry and flourish until somebody turns on the kitchen light and spray's 'em with RAID!
I think we going to have to kill a few of these civil law suits to straighten out the asses of the survivors.
And while you're up, ask Dubya if you'll have to sell (no rent) your daughter's ass to pay for your late father's credit card debts.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
You'll find it. (My old man was a marketing manager for a drug firm which is how I found out.)
Remember that there weren't any direct comparison ads on TV when you were a kid. Then that all changed when some lawyer mangled the english lanuage to come up with this piece of logic.
Now you know how come company A can't sue the ass off of company B when they company says their can of crap is better than A's can of crap.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
Lets see how much damage they can do to their rep with this piece of immoral and ultimately hopeless litigation. I'd like to just have *5 minutes* with the pointy haired bosses that came up with this business strategy.
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Life's a bitch but somebody's gotta do it.
I don't know how relevant this is, but NCR seems to have been a little late getting into the game. As if this idea is non-obvious anyway.
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Life's a bitch but somebody's gotta do it.
I don't have any examples to hand, but I have heard of companies using fleets(?) of PalmOS devices to collect transactions that are later processed on a central system. See Palm's web site, especially their Enterprise Solutions.
Just for the record, NCR isn't National Cash Register anymore. It stopped being that when AT&T bought the company and turned National Cash Register into AT&T GIS. When AT&T let NCR be it's own company again in 1997 it became NCR again, but no where is it called National Cash Register.
I think it would be fun if they changed it to NCR Causes Recursion.
Oh, and for an old-school company that can't keep up, NCR sure employs a lot of people here in Dayton Ohio, my hometown.
NCR would have a seemingly much stronger claim against the people who make software for the Palm that can be used for financial transactions and/or inventory control. My Palm doesn't have a PIN, or a financial account access application.
Although it's not related to that specific example, Heinlein did come up with the idea of a waterbed in fiction ten years before someone actually invented one and tried to patent it. Because Heinlein had already come up with the idea and placed it in the public domain by writing it into a story, the inventor was unable to get a patent. For the specifics, go to the Heinlein FAQ and text-search on "waterbed".
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Editor Emeritus and Senior Writer, TeleRead.org
I suspect the people you're talking about would be Symbol Technologies, who have for years made portable bar-code readers for use in retail and other outlets. For instance, the Toys'R'Us where I used to work and the K-mart where I work now both use gun-shaped bar-code reader/data terminals with UPC readers and keypads. At one point, I even watched a manager process a K-Mart credit card application through one, on the spot!
The really interesting thing is that Symbol makes a line of bar-code-reading devices that are essentially Palm IIIs (or VIIs?) with bar-code scanners attached. It's interesting that they apparently aren't named in the suit--could it be that they do license the NCR patent technology?
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Editor Emeritus and Senior Writer, TeleRead.org
The classic case of this is the waterbed. Someone tried to patent it in the 1960's. However, Robert Heinlein described a waterbed in "Stranger in a Strange Land", which placed it in the public domain. The patent was tossed.
-jon
Remember Amalek.
Laptop computers
Apple Newtons
Sharp Wizards
Sharp Zauruses (Zauri?)
PCS Cellphones
Commodore SX-64 (the lugable one)
Original Compaq 'portable' computers
Franklin electronic organizers
etc...
All of these fit into NCRs incredibly vague definition.
The second is patent number 4,689,478 August 25, 1987. It mentions the other patent but I can't wade through the pronouns...I think this is an interface module which would be used for transactions, whether standalone or mounted on an ATM. There's a lot of references to interfaces, a modem and a light shield to control the link to the pocket device described by the first patent.
The first one appears not to apply. The general claims are very broad, and would cover pretty much every portable device, as has been said elsewhere in this topic. The description, however, clearly describes a credit-card-sized device that plugs into the handheld for the purposes of user authentication, i.e. the handheld is not carried around with you like a palmtop, it is more like the PINpads at a checkout, only IR-connected rather than whatever goofy serial port they're using this week.
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E_NOSIG
Well they were most likely running a patent review
and came across this one and said look my Palm III
does this. Let's get them.
It is said that a child learns wisdom from the parent,
but the truly wise parent learns joy from the child
It's not their fault so many are stupid and humorless enough to believe it...
Boss of nothin. Big deal.
Son, go get daddy's hard plastic eyes.
Expanding a vast wasteland since 1996.
Just enough to hang yourself with you mean? ;)
-Omar
...I have a patent on 'claiming stupid patents on widespread, every day things as a way to point out the shortcomings in logic in the lawsuit to which the article refers.' So if you try to jest by claiming you've patented air, cuttlery or reproduction, I'll see you in court!
How 'bout an Abacus?
AdFuel
To Quote 4,689,478...
said sensor and transmitting areas being light-operated;
My Palm Pilot doesn't have any "light-operated" I/O. Modern unit do -- hell, they (can) have CDPD for that matter.
Ok, so when were the first HP calculators (with IR ports) available?
Apple?
Casio?
Franklin?
NEC?
IBM?
Sony?
HP?
TRG?
Phillips?
Compaq?
whoever it is who is making the YOPY?
The difference between Theory and Practice is greater in Practice than in Theory.
At least it beats running the suckers on SNA over Multi-Drop Private Line, and the less that can be said about running UUCP over SNA over Multi-Drop to implement service monitoring, the better
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Would a "working prototype" for a business model require that you run the system in a manner that *actually* *makes* *profits* before you could get a patent? That'd cut out most business model patents from the dot-com years....
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
So we're going to have the UNISYS/GIF patent issue all over again? Look how popular UNISYS was for doing that. I would think that NCR has better things to do than go after people on a patent infringement lawsuit that has no merit.
Oh, wait.. I remember their last attempt at making computers... maybe they don't...!
Polymorphism -- It's what you make of it.
Don't forget that NCR invented the idea of a palmtop "pen" computer in the late eighties and early ninties.
NCR, and later Apple, threw a lot of money at pen computing before Palm got it right. Did Palm learn from NCR's mistakes, or would they have gotten everything right on the first try?
What are you, dense? They're suing Palm for SELLING the products! UPS and FedEx don't sell those hand-held signature thingies, they just USE them. Jesus Christ.
Sorry if I'm a bit upset but that was one of the dumbest posts I'd read in a long time.
"Destroy science and religion. Science would re-emerge exactly the same; but not religion." - Penn Jillette, paraphrased
To be fair, recording inventory is not a transaction.
-no broken link
Give us the money or we shut down your company, is going to have far more of an impact on the executives of Palm than it is on Mr. Gates. As such, it's more likely that Palm is going to go for a settlement.
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Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
I think that the entire case will come down to this statement (of course... I am a master of the obvious). But I think it will be shot down very simply because it is way too vague. If you look at this, they have patented not only PDA's, but also laptop computers (they are portable as well) and pretty much any device that is capable of handling a transaction and isn't tied down physically for some reason or another. (for that matter, a normal old PC could be considered that as you can technically port it around)
On a further note, if NCR wins this little legal battle, they will be in a good strategic position to start collecting on any use of wireless technology. Well, not all wireless technology, but pretty much everything that deals with small, portable devices that connect to a central system.
You know, look at is this way. NCR can gain nothing from this patent anymore, and they may have some spare cash sitting around. What do they have to lose by starting this lawsuit? Nothing really besides lawyers fees and bad PR.... and what do they have to gain? Well, they have the possibility of gaining a prior patent on one of the fastest growing sectors in technology. This could be viewed almost completely as a strategic move on their part... really crappy and pathetic, but strategic...
13 years from the moment of the patent to the lawsuit -
Yeah, this was a major priority for them.
A pointy haired boss came up with this one. This is so Dilbert, it's pathetic. - A whole new way to make money off the internet...Just sue your way into the industry.
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ah honey, we're all resplendent - Bill Mallonee
I have a visor, and I have never performed a 'transaction'. I have never connected it to a communication device Other then the base to perform a backup/restore Or use the IR port to beam software. It seems this would only apply to the products that use commuincation devices such as cellphones or wireless, but even then you should have to show that a transaction occurs. Server push isnt a transaction.. several other things are not transactions. Even if they could prove they are infringing its not as wide spread as NCR would like, I also have a feeling prior art may be possible.
What about Inspector Gadget (the cartoons from the early 80's, not the MB movie)? Doesn't Penny's little computer/e-book device count as prior art? It functioned something like a PDA. I don't think you need an actual device for prior art, just the description of a device, so that should count.
The article is light on details, but wouldn't cell phones be covered by this patent as well?
As if it isn't obvious enough already that this is another lawyers-as-money-trees scheme, NCR wants a jury trial. Everyone knows, if you want a huge settlement and an easier case, you ask for a jury. It should be patently obvious (pardon me) that the jury will be wholly and permanently unqualified to render judgement on this one. (NCR isn't going to sit around and let any qualified people sit, are they?)
I'm quite sure that NCR's blood-sucking lawyers made sure that they stayed two-steps removed from the legal definition of blackmail, but the fact that they're asking for a jury trial and to have Palm and Handspring essentially blocked from doing anything to generate revenue is as plain as a "voluntary" confession at gunpoint.
(What makes me sick is that there's no legal way for us to get rid of the lawyers, and that will never change, since the lawyers make the laws.)
That was written in 1977-78!!! Eat that!
portable personal terminal for use in a system for handling transactions
It's called a checkbook
Ask BountyQuest to send me $10K
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Je t'aime Stéphanie
Portable document creator..hmmmmm A pad of paper and a pencil. As Billy Shakespeare said, "first, kill all the lawyers."
SuperDuG
Ignore the "p2p is theft" trolls, they're just uninformed
The patents are actually pretty specific about what they cover, and they cover Palm and Handspring devices pretty well.
Read them here and here.
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...or am I missing something?
Damn! There's patent on buttons laid out in a matrix?
Well, I guess it's back to the old drawing board for me then.
KFG
Star Wars not being real was of course not really prior art and I can't think of any handhelp computers in it. But what about tricorders (sp?) or anything else handheld or portable from pre 1986 SF. If not prior art this would prove that it was and is a *very* obvious idea. Which is what I think you meant in any case.
Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics. Those who live by the sword die by the arrow.
Really I would like to see a link on that one. In any case I did point out that it would prove that it was obvious and to to top it off I have another one Neuromancer was published in 1984 and if decks don't prove that this is an obvious idea then I don't know what would.
Yet another reason to love William Gibson.
Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics. Those who live by the sword die by the arrow.
Actually it seems any cell phone fits this and they were around before 1987. Seems to me everytime I make a call on my cell it is a transaction between me and Cingular and my Nokia is pretty portable.
"We were half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold."
-- Hunter S. Tolkien
NCR has a patent alright, but Palm doesn't violate it, because Palm isn't "credit card size" by any stretch of the imagination.
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
Not in claim one they don't and NCR only have to prove you've infringed on one claim to have a case.
Star Wars not being real was of course not really prior art and I can't think of any handhelp computers in it.(emphasis mine)
Hmmm. This contradiction here got me wondering. Why is it called prior art? Does it has to be artistic in any way, or at all? And does it has to be real to be successfully used against a proposed patent?
Now that I'm typing this, it sounds a bit funny, but I saw a post up there that said something about waterbeds not being patentable due to Robert Heinlein's "Stranger in a Strange Land". So, if any scientist invents, let's say, a Warp Drive, will it not be patentable due to all the Star Trek series and movies?
Tongue-tied and twisted, just an earth-bound misfit, I
Learning to fly, Pink Floyd.
"Worse, it's too general"
:)
"too general" == oxymoron, when it comes to patents.
That's how you play the game: write the patent as broadly as possible to stake out as much intellectual 'property' as possible.
As Morpheus said to Neo, "Welcome to the real world."
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D. Fischer
ShoutingMan.com
They (NCR) didn't give a crap about their patent until they realized they could possibly grift Handspring and Palm. I can just see the meeting that inspired this lawsuit (it probably involved some suit jotting a note on his PalmIII and saying "hey, wait a second guys!" NCR's really pushing it here.
I'm still trying to figure out what people mean by 'social skills' here.
I hope they are thrown out of court in much the same manner as Xerox and Apple were for waiting too damn long to try enforcing a patent (in this case the GUI interface like most of you are looking at)
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A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
At a former company we had scan-guns which had LCD-displays and button key pads, they could communicate IR, RF, or direct link, and could be hooked to small bar-code printers. They weren't NCR products, but the broad expanse of this old patent would appear to have been infringed upon many ways by that device, as well.
Now hold both Palm I and this scan-gun in your hand and you'd think, "hell, these aren't the same at all." and you'd be 90% right. It seems the 10% is where NCR's claim lies. My old TI-81 calculator would also appear to infringe as it's got memory, a display, buttons and could actually do more than just plot graphs, however, I'd expect TI and HP have that ground pretty well covered and nobody much cares anymore.
What this is, in the big picture, is Mining Old Patents & Copyrights for dollars. Considering the amount of time passed before they attempted to defend their Intellectual Property, don't expect it to go very far.
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A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
I won't say MS, that's been done to death. BUT hows about UPS and FedEx, they have "portable personal terminals for use in a system for handling transactions". Come to think of it, so does ConEd and BUG (Con Edison, Brooklyn Union Gas: gas providers in NYC, they read the gas meters on the sides of our houses and have similar devices to the UPS guys).
Now that I think about it, I've been seeing a lot more IBM cash registers around then NCRs. However NCR is a huge manufacturer of ATM machines, I know that much. I'm gonna look for their balance sheet and post it up as a reply and see what their profit margins look like. Maybe we can figure out their motives.
"Me Ted"
BOSTON SUCKS!
through ingeniuty, finding opportunities and building for them, or improving upon ideas? Good lord, this is friggin' ridiculous! Seems like lawyers must have a secret society that infiltrates the board rooms of all companies not wildly succeeding, constantly pushing for litigation. The blood sucking scum.
And that's my $0.32 (adjusted for inflation).
Apple has patented the design of flowers, spots, and certain colors. They are suing God, forcing him to stop making flora and fauna, spotted animals, and to prevent Him from displaying certain colors in rainbows. Steve Jobs is reported as saying "I'll have His ass!"
And that's my $0.32 (adjusted for inflation).
The "Medium sized length of rope used for jumping" patent is not valid, and actually infringes on my earlier patent:
"Medium sized length of rope used for hanging."
-- Judge Thomas Lynch
I mean, how long has the Palm been in existence? And NCR only just discovers it? IANAL, but waiting for an ungodly long amount of time before suing for patent infringement should count against the plaintiff...
That said, the NCR patent sounds to me like a completely different animal from the Amazon patent. This would've been non-obvious in 1987. I assume that NCR has a few of their proto-pilots floating around in their labs...
Of course they only care about the companies that have had "tremendous commercial success." It's not like they raised this lawsuit years ago when Palm made its first product. Wait for success, then sue... now that's a good business model.
Developers: We can use your help.
This is not a Fugazi
They should sue the creators of Etcha Sketch as well !
http://logd.programgeeks.net/referral.php?r=lordv
Wow patent suits seem to be all the rage. Thoughts on this may stem from the beating companies are now taking on stock markets worldwide, and the finances their losing by the millions.
This may be a turnkey business in the next few months as businesses are attempting to stay afloat amidst the dryout of funding, etc., so I predict a flurry of Patent Law classes in law schools getting a boost as did the Physical Therapy route few years back.
These are very broad claims, and its unfortunate the article didn't zoom in on specifics. Its (the article, in my opinion) as if an auto maker states: We're patenting an auto that runs on four rubber wheels for personal use.
How are we to know what kind of auto they meant, sedan, suv, sports car, etc., they (patent committees) should do more when assessing patent rights to ensure those in possession of the patent don't get abused, as well as protect others from being abused by the owners of the patent themselves, which to me might be the case here judging from the time it took to bring this to court, current market conditions, and the overwhelming popularity of Palm. (jealousy kills)
I don't think NCR knows the value of having a "jury of its peers" means they're likely to get a bunch of homemakers with little clues on what the heck is going on in all fairness to both companies. They'll become quickly bored and this may go against NCR altogether. (my experience dealing with computers and the legal system)
Theories in DoS
360 degrees of Karma
Uhhh, didn't anyone tell NCR that Star Trek:TOS (The Old Series) used what amounted to color palms as personal terminals to the ship's computers way back in the mid 60's? And that it was probably no way near the first appearance of such a device in SF.
It's a doubly good example given the story about how, when ST first came on the air, they were bombarded by 7 or 8 people who claimed patent infringement by their depiction of a hospital bed with built-in automatic sensor equipment.
I am for the complete Trantorization of Earth.
...tender flaky golden cakey out-side...
wrap the inside in the outside what you get? darn tootin!
it's the FUCKING...
...APPLE...
NEWTOOOOOOOOOOON!
(Someone tell NCR they were beaten to it by a guy in a fig-suit.)
--Blair
From the article: In papers filed on Wednesday in U.S. District Court in Delaware, NCR said, ``Palm and Handspring knew about the NCR patents, (but) chose not to seek licenses from NCR.'' The technology allows retail and consumer users access to and the ability to manage ``substantial'' amounts of information. The lawsuit cited two products, the Palm Pilot and Handspring Visor (news - web sites), as allegedly infringing devices that have had ''tremendous commercial success.''
Diplomacy is the art of letting people have your way
NCR has little ground for suing. Is keeping my datebook and playing a few games considered "transactions"? I don't think so, at least not in the sense that a company called "National Cash Register" thinks. Maybe they have a shadow case now that things like the palm XII or any unit with a Minstrel wireless modem allow you to buy stuff online wirelessly, but I still think it's a stretch. On a side note, why are they just going after the two biggest Palm OS companies? Why not go after Compaq and HP and the myriad others that make WinCE based handhelds? Maybe their lawyers don't have that kind of guts :-)
Where's my lobbyist? Right here.