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Review: Ergo Interfaces Evolution Keyboard
The keyboard itself, as seen in this older photo, is split and angled, with the touch pad in the upper-left corner of the right-hand section. As you can see from the image, it's a full size keyboard -- complete with numkey area, real function keys, and all that.
The primary difference between the version I tested and this older one is that rather then being mounted on arms of the user's chair, a la the older Evolution, the new keyboard sits on the desk.
There's a whole steel/metal mounting system that you have to install on the underside of your desk. Luckily enough, I use the TJ series desk from Herman Miller, which came with the appropriate mounting system already installed. Otherwise, it'd be a remove-everything-from-desk, flip-over (because the mounting system is heavy) and careful-work ordeal. You need to hold the mount perfectly still while you drill in the eight screws that hold it in place.
However, since I already had a keyboard/mouse mounting tray installed, the tray for the new keyboard fit right in place -- no fuss, no muss. I suspect that it's a standard size, so if you have an average-looking mounting system in place, you may be able to just use that.
Again, the only big difference between this and the other Evolution keyboard is that it's made for the desktop, rather than chair mount. Doesn't sound like much, does it? Believe me, it is. One my big complaints with the chairmounted Evolution was that you couldn't roll your chair over to another part of the room, because of the length of the cables hooked to the computer. And moving the arms of your chair loosened the screws holding the keyboard in place. Over the six months or so of Rob using it, the screws slowly stripped till they could barely hold the keyboard up. The desk mount with this version makes a big difference in this department -- far less hassle.
My other big complaint about the keyboard, though, hasn't gone away: the mouse sucks. It's a small touchpad surface, and the mouse buttons are horribly non-responsive. It's also a two-button mouse, so you have to chord for the 3rd button, and having non-responsive buttons means that cutting and paste becomes a difficult process, under any *nix. And because the pad is so small, you really have to turn up the sensitivity to be able to move around at 1024 x 768. There was software included with it, but for Win9X only, so that didn't really help out much.
So, the mouse is frustrating. The desk-mount fix is good, but I'm switching back to a more regular setup, until the mouse situation gets better. But if you have do wrist problems, or want to take an ergonomic approach before they appear, this keyboard is well suited for that. And if you are running mostly Windows, then the mouse issues become less of any issue -- no need for the 3rd mouse button, and the software on the disks will mean better support.
You can find more information out from:
ErgoInterfaces
Evolution
Keyboard
You might note that these keyboards are made by Kinesis, and can be purchased from them online. I use a Kinesis contoured keyboard, which is great. There is a lot more information on kinesis' site than on the site mentioned in the story.. go there, fool
I tried this. When I tried this I ended up with a control key that I'd need to hit twice to use/unuse. Kind of awkward to describe, but most keys (abcde) are "on" when you hit them, and "off" when you release. the caps lock key is on when you hit it, and off when you hit it a second time. How'd you get around this?
Here's what you're looking for
Simple..put your rig in a Faraday cage, you get the added bonus of secutiy form those who you don't really want listening to the emf's your wired keyboard produces already!!!
I think every programming language should have its own keyboard layout. :)
better link, the author's is too general Not a karma whore!
I can think of a few...
win + e: Runs Windows Explorer, great when you need to access the file system fast.
win + r: Does what you can do keeping my hands near the home row.
win + d: Minimizes/Restores all visible windows. Good for clearing screen clutter.
win + f: Opens the Find dialog. Hell, that's just convenient.
win + m: Minimizes all visible windows. (I never use this one.)
win + break: System Properties sheet. Good for a quick peek at system resources, manipulating hardware, etc.
All I need now is something like win + c for a command prompt or something... =)
I sometimes use the context menu key as well, usually to make new folders in explorer:
context, w, f.
While not useful for everyone, they make life that little bit easier. When I was in the middle of cleaning my MSNatural (say what you want about their software, but their hardware kicks ass.) I was using my good 'ol IBM klunker. The lack of those keys tooks seconds off my life!
Seriously though, they do have their uses, and I'd rather have them than not.
Beyond that, can't we capture the key codes and map them to something in *NIX? Maybe make it another meta key?
Create new win-key shorcuts with this: http://www.copernic.com/winkey/
- My girlfriend hates it. She never uses it enough to really learn it, so it's just annoying to her
- It really feels best when I type with it on my lap. I don't know if you'd get the same benefit if you have it sitting on your desk.
- It has a really wimpy Escape key. I find this really annoying. And I don't know what it is about xmodmap, but every attempt to map the Insert key or other not-so-useful key to Escape ends up failing.
- The function keys are all little and wimpy, but that's pretty appropriate since I use almost no function keys during the day. The windows keys are almost inaccessible (some random keys when in keypad mode), which would be annoying on Windows since you won't be able to use all the keyboard shortcuts that will make your hands happier. But I'm sure there's some xmodmap-like program for Windows you could use to fix this.
- You still have to hit shift with your pinkies, and so my pinkies are the first fingers to get tired. But Control, Alt, space, delete, backspace, and enter are all done with the thumbs, so it's still a lot better.
- While there is a button to put the keyboard in keypad mode (where the right side acts like arrow keys or a number pad), it's rather lame. Worst part, the space becomes a zero, so if you want to type spaces with your arrows or numbers, you'll have to switch back and forth (which would be too annoying to bother). This usually isn't a problem, but when using certain games that don't allow you to remap keys it is very very annoying (I have another normal keyboard sitting around, though).
- OTOH, with games that do allow you to remap keys (first person shooters, particularly), it's really nice -- you have reliable access to quite a few keys from one hand, much better than a normal keyboard (especially because of the numerous thumb keys).
Still, highly recommended. I think it's definately a step up from the MS Natural-style keyboards, and is fairly non-intrusive. While it takes a little while to learn (less if you already practice proper touch typing), it's entirely worth it if you type a lot (and who here doesn't?) I'd choose the Essential over the Maxim or similar conservative split-keyboard design any day, and it's entirely worth the money.The keyboard is pretty good quality, but after several years mine is starting to have some problems with some keys repeating too much (like I hit the backspace once and the computer gets two signals). Still, good quality.
What I would love is some place that has a large number of these setup and for a modest fee you could go try them all. The problem is that what is perfect for me may suck for you and vice versa. It would be very nice to be able to test drive keyboards first.
Erlang Developer and podcaster
Why is it everybody assumes that mice are only used right-handed? Although designed right-handed, my MSFT IntelliMouse (not the one with the thumb button) works quite well with the left hand, but this keyboard doesn't even offer the option of using with the other hand. I'm actually right-handed, but use the mouse with the left hand living the other free to type or write. This keyboard would just annoying me as I would be constantly moving my hand from the mouse to the navigation keys (which I generally find are much faster and accurate).
WARNING: using arm rests while typing can cause severe injury! I actually would rest my arms on them while typing and this led to tendonitis at both of my elbows. This is a very common injury and incredibly easy to avoid. If you have arm rests, just be sure to lower them to a point that they will not even brush your elbows/arms while typing.
A good source of more info would be It's not carpal tunnel syndrome or the typing injury faq.
I thought that it was because I have abused the keyboard a bit, but my e's are repeating sometimes now. Might be a design flaw.
Also, one thing I forgot to mention is that the shift gets 'stuck' sometimes. It always has from the time I first had the keyboard. I have gotten so used to it that I have forgotten it, but it does still irritate me sometimes. Apparently this is not normal behavior and Kinesis offered to fix it for free, but I never bothered to send it in to them.
Your other comments are quite accurate. I also keep a 'normal' keyboard around for the games that don't remap keys well.
Based on recommendations from a prior Slashdot article, I bought a Kinesis Ergo. At the time they were in Fry's for about $200 (the cheapest model). Fry's doesn't seem to have them anymore; you may have to order them from Kinesis.
The Ergo is shaped like a Microsoft Ergo keyboard in reverse; instead of a RAISED section for each hand, it has two SUNKEN sections, a bit like you took an ice cream scoop to a regular keyboard. Each key is at a slightly different angle and height. This makes it very difficult to type on at first. It took me probably about a week and a half before I was back up to acceptable speed with it, and probably most of a month before I was back to 100%. But, I kept improving -- the design of the keyboard makes it easy to feel mistakes. At this point, I make fewer typos, type faster, and experience much less wrist discomfort. It is a thoroughly superior solution. And I have no problem at all switching between standard 'flatties' and the Ergo. I don't even notice it.
I bought mine two years ago. At the time they still all used the older, large keyboard plug. I don't know whether or not they have been updated.... if not, you will need an adapter cable to use it with any machine that is less than 3 years old.
Yes, $200 is a lot to spend on a keyboard, but it's a lot less than it costs to fix your wrists. And these seem very well built.
Well, it's actually not as simple as that. What's "ergonomics"? There's a ton of definitions, but basically, it's the science that studies how people work. How does being aware of that science prevent injury?
I think what you're getting at is that more people need to go out and buy "ergonomic furniture," but really there is no such thing in the sense that you imply. That is, no one chair is going to be perfect for everybody to prevent injury. The real key to ergonomic furniture is to find furniture that will let you adjust its positioning in as many ways as possible. That's about it.
Yes folks, what I'm saying is that you can buy a Herman Miller chair and still end up with RSI. Awareness of ergonomics is not so much the issue. Awareness of the potential for injury is. Far and away the #1 factor in preventing RSI, and even in reversing some level of RSI, is not new furniture -- it's change in work habits.
And, in the event you feel like reading about some folks who probably aren't much older than you (and may be younger) who have indeed already developed what may be permanent injuries, read on.
--
Breakfast served all day!
Yes. RSI affects many occupations. Any task that involves repetative body motion that the body was not designed for can result in repetative stress injuries. Tennis elbow is another common example of an RSI. I don't believe that piano players suffer from carpal tunnel syndrom specifically. I am not a pianist. If you compare how you play a piano to your typeing I believe that you will find that typeing requires a lot more little finger movements. Playing a piano looks like it uses more arm and hand movements. Also pianos have been around for a longer time and the injuries, and how to prevent them are better understood.
The studies you are refering to are really economic studies. These studies do not refute the ERGOnomics of the Dvorak layout which is superior to qwerty keyboards. That is not a hard claim to make. The keypress frequency numbers speak for themselves.
I have used a dvorak keyboard. My typeing speed never increased but I can type for longer on a Dvorak keybord before my hands and wrists get tired. You should try one.
Check this out... But I don't think it's available sealed against liquid "spills"..
Your Working Boy,
- Otis (GAIM: OtisWild)
It's a really cool kybd, but there are some pretty big caveats IMHO and I would definitely not recommend it except in very particular circumstances..
HTH, HAND... (omigod, Tube Tunes strikes again.. The Punky Brewster theme just popped up in iTunes...
Your Working Boy,
- Otis (GAIM: OtisWild)
Okay, this may, or may not be relevant, but it DOES deal with on-call pay.
I work for a major hospital in the Chicago-land area. There are several units (like the OR) that have nurses on-call.
They have specific days that they're on-call. And during those days, they get paid a piddling sum-per hour (don't remember how much), simply because they have to be ready to come in on a moment's notice.
Once they come in, they're paid at full hourly wage. And if it's more than their standard 40-hour week, they make overtime pay off it.
Now, this may not be completely germane to your situation. If you're supposed to be available 24/7/365, you REALLY should be a salaried employee. In addition to this, you should have an employee contract in place stating compensation (either monetary or time off) for any time you put in over a given period (usually anything over a 48-hour week).
You need to sit down with your employer and work this out. Because, not only will it protect you, and make YOUR life/job easier/more lucrative, it should save your employer money as well.
And if your employer isn't amenable to fair compensation (I said FAIR, not avaricious), begin looking for an employer who actually values their work force.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
On Windows NT, try this:
:)
ctrl2cap from SysInternals
I install this on every NT machine I have to use. It's wonderful! Works great. Patches things at the kernel level so you never have to worry about that pesky control key being in the wrong place, or capslock wrecking your code.
mmmm. It's an amazing piece of 'ware.
Answer: Dvorak layout.
Dvorak International
Makes you wonder why we even bother with QWERTY anymore..
The way I got around having to use the mousepad for cut-n-paste was to just select the text and use SHIFT-Insert instead. It takes a little while to get used to, but works great.
So, your keyboard radios your keystrokes to your PC, and your PC is connected to the internet thru a firewall. how exactly does the firewall prevent me from standing outside your window listening to your keystrokes with another reciever?
>>Learn to type by typing in MUDs or chat-rooms; the need for speed to do or say something in a timely fashion will force your hands to train themselves, in a way that conscious effort never will.
Agreed entirely. I learned where all the keys on the keyboard are by playing Angband (uses all the letter keys) without looking at the keyboard, and then built speed by playing PK muds (player versus player - needs faster typing than player versus monster).
I'm now able to touch-type accurately at around 80wpm, although because I'm a programmer I tend not to sustain it for long (because I don't need to).
~Cederic
AMEN! :-)
I use a Microsoft Natural Elite keyboard, and believe me, after you're used to that keyboard going back to a regular keyboard is totally not fun at all.
I think the reason why is because on the Natural keyboard you type without angling the wrist, and when you go back to a regular keyboard the need to angle the wrist makes a regular keyboard feel very uncomfortable and cramped in comparsion.
By the way, another thing that really helps to cut down wrist problems is to get yourself a chair that has adjustable height. It makes a huge difference in terms of proper wrist position, too.
Raymond in Mountain View, CA
What I find interesting is that while everyone gripes about Microsoft software, they all love Microsoft-branded mouse pointers and keyboards. The latest MS Intellimouse and Intellimouse Explorer standard mice and their latest trackball pointers are flat-out excellent units, in my opinion.
I use a MS Natural Elite keyboard, and after getting used to it going back to a regular keyboard was totally no fun: it felt unnatural and cramped in comparison.
Raymond in Mountain View, CA
From what I know, most large computer manufacturers either use Mitsumi or KeyTronic keyboards.
But most of them offer the option to upgrade to a Microsoft keyboard at a pretty low price.
Raymond in Mountain View, CA
If you're an X11 user, look up some of the functions of xmodmap. This will enable you to bind the ever-annoying "Caps Lock" into another "Control" key. I have my own laptop keyboard altered this way and it should work on any keyboard that doesn't implement the "Caps Lock" in pure hardware.
Ita erat quando hic adveni.
These guys make non-Windows keyboards with pride. And the best IBM ThinkPad lines ship without Windows keys to this day. So yes, fortunately for all of us, somebody still produces MS-free keyboards :)
Ita erat quando hic adveni.
What keeps my wrists from hurting
1) swapping between different kinds of keyboards every couple of months. I have a regular rectangular one and a MS Natural one that I use alternatingly.
and 2) riding my bike. My hands feel totally restored for several days after a bike ride. Get out and do something besides typing.
At one time I was experiencing pretty severe wrist paint that would last for days or weeks at a time.
I tried wrist rests, had ergonomic keyboards (which I still use) etc. etc. but to no avail.
After experimenting for quite awhile I was talking to one of my coworkers who had had similar problems. She had went to her doctor who had suggested she try making sure she had a good chair and was sitting up straight rather than slouching.
Worked like a charm for her and for me. I normally don't experience computer related wrist pain at all anymore unless I let myself start slouching - then within hours I'll notice the pain start up again.
Just kind of figured I would throw it out there for everyone who slouches in their computer chair and experiences wrist pain..
-Alan
You need to get a clip arm for your monitor to hold the mags/printouts/etc. for you. They're cheap and work great for this.
Cheers,
It's not claustrophobia, but that's the way they make me feel having to keep my hands and arms in the same position all the time. I've got to switch up at times and put my feet up with the keyboard in my lap, or other things which vary it up every now and then. I do use the big one-piece split keyboards, like the Microsoft Natural keyboards, because the finger positioning is so comfortable, but when they're stuck in one place, it drives me nuts.
Cheers,
My room contains boxen with the following keyboard layouts: :P
Sun Type 5c
Old IBM XT/AT (F-keys on side, good ctrl key, etc)
NeXT non-ADB
Standard 101-key with big backspace and little \
Standard 101-key with little backspace and big enter
Old Mac (pre-PPC) PowerBook
Oddball PC laptop
Apple Extended II
And you think -you- have problems?
-- Veni, vidi, dormivi
(with apologies to Jack Burton)
One of the biggest problems I've seen are people who type while resting the heels of their hands ON the damn wrist wrest things! That's the exact opposite of what you're supposed to do!
While I miss my recently-departed Apple Ergonomic Keyboard, the two biggest things I've done to help prevent this sort of thing from happening are:
a) get a Tensor bandage for my right wrist for mousing, and
b) type correctly! Your hands should not be resting on anything while you type, but in a neutral position with the fingers bending down.
You can spend a fortune on fancy keyboards and desks, but learning how to type properly is cheaper and more effective in the long run.
Hell, take a typing class.
Pope
Freedom is Slavery! Ignorance is Strength! Monopolies offer Choice!
It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
While the angled, split keyboard may be "ergonomic", that only works if you're a fully-functional typist. I never really did learn the "proper" way to type, and for me that turned out to be a good thing, too.
After I came down with multiple sclerosis, my whole right side stopped working, and now I'm typing everything left-handed only. It's hard enough using a "normal" keyboard, but anything like this, especially with the mouse-equivalent touchpad on the right side, would be very hard for me to use, carpal tunnel or not.
I rather suspect the unit would be equally annoying to anybody who is left-handed, too. *sigh* Until the designers start to realise that we're not all 6' tall, fully able-bodied right-handed people, we'll keep seeing these gadgets touted as "easy-to-use", when for quite a few people, they really are a step backwards on that front.
Lemon curry?
Anyone with half a clue has already used the Windows key as "Meta4", to complement Alt, Shift and Ctrl. So now you can get close to a Quadruple Bucky on a commercial-off-the-shelf keyboard!
But seriously, I use the Windows key for changing workspaces (Windows+1..9), cycling windows (Windows+Tab), Iconising/Restoring windows (Windows+'-'/Windows+'='), etc.
I used to work for that company way back in the beginning. I've got the left one mapped as an "alt" and the others simply turned off. (as I recall) It works quite well that way. Of course, the keys still *look* like windows keys, but they're black, and this can be solved quite easily with the little help of a Sharpie marker.
I went the other way: got more HHKB's for other computers.
I don't see how you all can use the command line with CTRL being all the way down there on "regular" keyboards.
The Logitech trackman Marble FX was my favorite pointing device until the the Microsoft Optical trackball came out. It has more buttons, it's black, I have less wrist pain, and it's only $32 at buy.com. It has better response than the Logitech one too, you can actually use it for Quake.
Ever since I switched to the Microsoft one, my wrists have been pain free. Previously, after a day of work, it felt like someone smashed my wrist with a hammer.
Need Free Juniper/NetScreen Support? JuniperForum
I tried that keyboard awhile back - while it was still the chair-mounted version. Apart from the hushed oohs and aahs of my visiting friends, it was terrible. I was constantly rolling too far from the computer and snatching the cables out of the machine.
Live and learn...
My solution to wrist problems has been to get up and walk away every 15 minutes or so. I don't code at 10hrs at a stretch like I used to.
www.HearMySoulSpeak.com
I had some pretty bad numbness in my left arm, culminating in shooting pain from my elbow all the way up to my shoulder. After going through an evaluation of my workspace by an engineer, I did some research on the net and decided I needed a better keyboard.
This keyboard, while not perfect, has been the primary reason that I have not had any numbness or pain in my arm for about two years now, I believe.
Yes, the mouse is kind of annoying. But I don't find that it has the lack of sensitivity that the original poster mentioned. The lack of a middle mouse button is very annoying. On a Linux box it's not so bad, since I can chord. But on an SGI it's just a royal pain. Luckily I can use a combination of tools to map a middle mouse button to the "Windows" key. Heck, with the right window manager, I even move the mouse around using VI keys plus a modifier!
I haven't experienced the problem that the original poster did about the range of the chair. My experience has been that the cable is pretty darn long. I haven't had it constrain my chair at all when wheeling around my office. The two portions of the keyboard swing down next to the arms of the chair, and hitting the Scroll Lock key four times makes accidental hits of the keyboard not get sent to the computer.
Hooked up to a KVM switch so I can run 2 or 3 computers makes this thing a blast to use.
As for cost...a couple hundred dollars is chump change compared to the cost of physical therapy. If your employer is serious about ergonomics, he shouldn't even blink about getting you something like this. The seriousness of repetitive stress injuries and the shortage of computer scientists means that he should jump at the chance to keep you happy and healthy.
-Sean
Let me know. I'll buy it off you. As a CTS sufferer, I'm always looking for alternatives, and the mouse thing wouldn't bother me so much. (Plus I use Windows for most of my type-intensive stuff, I'm sad to say.)
What's your damage, Heather?
RF is not that bad. I myself am much more concerned about the relatively high energy visible-spectrum radiation in my office. Has it been conclusively shown that I will not get rabies from this constant dose of radiation? I'm concerned.
This joystick-shaped mouse is the most comfortable pointing device I've ever used—better than the Marble FX Trackball or the Wacom pen tablet. It was formerly sold as the Anir Mouse until 3M bought the rights. I hope they sell millions of them. They are about $45.
This book has useful things to say about workspace design, posture, stretching and breaks.
Here, the "Windows" keys function as Meta (as opposed to Alt) and the menu key is my Çømposé key =) Works like a charm, wouldn't want to go without it.
A few years ago my hands also started to hurt. It was about that time that this article (I believe that's the one) came out here. After reading a bunch about all the keyboards and looking into them I also picked up a kinesis ergo. It was the best money I've ever spent on my computer and close to some of the best money I've ever spent. I would glady pay again in an instant.
I love it. I also started to use xwrits. I find that I don't need it anymore but if things start to hurt it comes back in a hurry. If you're hurting I'd recommend a kinesis without reservation.
I actually got a qwerty/dvorak but haven't switched to dvorak. Unix seems to be just too optimized for qwerty. If I really started to hurt again I'm sure that I might try though.
Yep. You could also go all the way and buy a Sun. Now there's a nice keyboard!
After all, the Happy Hacking keyboards are modeled after the Sun keyboards. Using xmodmap, you can set all the funny function keys to do useful stuff too. You've got keys like COPY, CUT, PASTE, OPEN, FIND, etc...
Who could wish for more?
Sigmentation fault - core dumped
And if you were to investigate the options, you'd stop using a QWERTY keyboard immediately, because the RSI is caused by non-home-row stretching.
I'm actually surprised that a lawyer hasn't won a large class-action using OSHA laws - since the DVORAK keyboard has been proven to be a safer keyboard to use over the long term.
Linux - Because Mommy taught me to Share.
All you need is a foot pedal to type Perl code quickly and easily. I have a bunch of macros set so that I can type most "programming punctuation" without moving my fingers off the home row (or at least using a strong finger when I do). One post above said that the foot pedal was a waste of money, but I totally disagree. I have two, and as a result I have no trouble typing most punctuation, and I never have to use more than a single finger (and potentially both feet) to type a character. They also keep me sitting up straight as an ergonomic side-benefit.
I use a Logitech Trackman Marble (pre-scroll-wheel annoyance), and I've found it to be far more comfortable than the Marble FX over long usage... better for twitch games than a mouse, too, though I haven't had time for those in a year or two. In general, I agree that a trackball saves a lot of wear and tear on an arm/wrist.
--
"It's tough to be bilingual when you get hit in the head."
This keyboard is made by Kinesis Corporation, maker of other excellent ergonomic products like the Maxim keyboard I'm using right now. I've coveted the Evolution for some time now, but as the reviewer says, the trackpad sucks, and because the keyboard is so wide, your mouse is far enough away to become an ergo issue in itself. My Maxim doesn't have a pesky numeric keypad, so my trackball can snug in close where I don't have to reach to far for it.
http://www.keyboardco.com/ do refurbished original IBM PC's - the ones with the satisfying klunkiness that a really nice keyboard has.
Actually I believe those are the original IBM PC/AT keyboards. The PC (model 5150) version didn't have F11/F12, or the separate cursor keys.
Ok, I'll switch off the old fogey pedantry now... hey, wow, they have left handed keyboards! I might want to try one of those...
The guy in the picture has his hands far apart, a good foot and a half or two. So why would you want to take this split keyboard and just stick it together again by forcing both pieces to live in the typical one-piece keyboard tray?
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
ErgoInterfaces didn't make that keyboard. Kinesis did. Give them the credit. Kinesis Made it, ErgoInterfaces is just distributing it. Kinesis is the King of countour keyboards. You shouldn't be surprised that they made this one.
long durations of time, usually when I have to go to the bathroom.
That should clear up if you get more fiber in your diet.
Well, you couldn't really put an ergonomic keyboard in a laptop, since they take up so much space.
I'm skeptical that you could do a folding ergonomic keyboard, but I suppose it's theoretically possible. Wouldn't save you much space though.
For some reason, reading this article reminded me of the NewsRadio episode where Dave berates Bill for putting off work on his "Real Deal with Bill McNeil" commentaries until the last minute, whereupon he always ends up complaining about the inadequacies of various objects in the booth....
Bill: Well, I for one thought last week's piece, "Microphones, Why Do They Have To Be So Close To Your Head?" helped a lot of people!
I probably have that quote all wrong, though....
Nate
-- Watch the REAL Jon Katz.
i found that my qwerty typing did not seriously suffer after learning dvorak. there's about 1 min. of lots of backspacing when i first try to switch over, then i'm fine. I have a mouse binding on my background to switch maps for admins, and nt even has a button on the taskbar.
For anyone looking for GOOD wrist rests check out the 3M ones. Not the cheap ones you see in stores though. I have to order these and now have them at work and home, and have gotten many others to order them after using them.
:)
I know buy.com sells them. The part number for the keyboard rest is WR510 and the mouse is WR511. These are the gel type rests, but not the cheap feeling/looking ones you normally see. I've used the set at home for several years now, and only need to replace it because I busted the cover with a pen.
I started getting dull wrist pains before using these and now I don't. Another good change I made was going to a good trackball. Yeah, they take a week or two to really get used to, but my wrists feel MUCH better now and I'm just as accurate and fast on the trackball as a mouse. I went with a good optical Logitech with the thumb roller.
I started having some issues with wrist pain about a year ago. I did some reading on the different types of wrist problems you can get and came to the conclusion that my problems were mostly realated to muscle fatigue in the wrists.
I went out and bought a Microsoft Natural Elite (USB without the extra idiot buttons) and started using it at work 100% of the time. My problem actually became worse for a couple weeks, I had to take more breaks in order to shake out my wrists and relax. After I got used to it though, wow. Not only do I rarely get sore from typing but my speed and acuracy has increased quite a bit as well.
Anyone having trouble with this type of thing should really give one of the MS keyboards a try first. They're not for everyone but compared to the other stuff on the market they are really cheap.
One thing you might want to keep in mind, once you get used to one of these keyboards you will absolutely hate anything else. I can't type on a standard keyboard at all anymore, it just doesn't feel right. I had to buy one for home and I also bought an extra one a little while ago because the the ones without the idiot buttons are getting harder to find.
Why did this get modded as "Funny"... I am being completely serious... Oh well, It is worth checking out IMHO. Yes, learning a new layout can be a real pain, but after a few weeks I was really glad that I switched. I am not saying it is a solution, but it is an option...
When I started to get the mentioned wrist/hand pains, instead of buying a funky keyboard, I just switched layouts. DVORAK as worked wonders for me, typing is no longer painful and is actually easier....
But then, the learning curve is greater than just buying a new keyboard. Hm.
Just remember that even if the Dvorak layout helps, you still need things like good posture, not resting your wrists on hand-rests, taking breaks, stretching your wrists, not resting your hands on the keyboard.
The Dvorak layout is nice (I use it), but is only part of a complete solution.
Andrew.
My previous post seems to have been lost so:
http://www.mwbrooks.com/dvorak/dissent.html
Here's a link that looks at some of the arguments
against the Dvorak layout.
Andrew.
I, personally, found the article interesting, and having recently bought a (used) MS Natural Keyboard (only $10!) and seeing the benefit of proper ergonomics, I have to say I wish I had bought it sooner. Unfortunately, my workplace still uses the old style, and it's hurting my wrists as I speak...
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That's just the way it is
I'm surprised nobody's mentioned <A>HREF="http://www.dragonsys.com/products/d ragondict ate">Dragon Dictate</A>. I tried it a year ago and was really impressed at how it kept up with normal-paced speech. No linux version yet, sadly, that's why I'm not using it every day. Maybe ViaVoice will fill this void?
Think of the amount of typing you could just NOT DO at all if you could speak your e-mails. Not sure if the product's useful for coding.
One trick I use is not capitalizing (except when something's going to be widely read). By not making your hands do the awkward and strenuous reach-for-the-shift-while-hitting-another-key, I think strain is cut way down.
all of the articles i've seen that dismiss claims of Dvorak keyboards are only dimissing the claimed speed benefits, and the legends of "puposeful inefficiencies" of the QWERTY. they say nothing of the benefits of Dvorak with regards to RSI, which is the topic of this article. the bottomline is that Dvorak is no faster than QWERTY, but it sure seems a lot better on the wrists.
- j
What about folding/portable/travel ergo keyboards?
J
Who moderates the meta-moderators?
DataDesk Technologies make a keyboard with keys in straight lines. They also make the more distant keys larger, so they're easier to hit. Check out the 'SmartBoard' at http://www.datadesktech.com/products.htm
http://www.keyboardco.com/ do refurbished original IBM PC's - the ones with the satisfying klunkiness that a really nice keyboard has.
~~~~~ BigLig2? You mean there's another one of me?
What about security? I know the range is short but those logictech's use radio frequencies. No need for the key copy program, just pluck the keystrokes from the air!
--
Free Mac Mini
As someone who suffers on and off from RSI, I find that the pointing device is really the thing that causes my wrists, arms, and fingers to act up.
That's why I use (and swear by) a trackball. I don't have to move my wrists at all while using it. I can spend hours at a computer, as long as I have a good quality wrist rest and a trackball. However, if I have to do any significant amount of work on a computer with a mouse and no wrist rest, guaranteed within an hour I'll be experiencing a fair amount of physical discomfort.
BTW, the trackball I use is Microsoft's IntelliTrackball, and I swear by it. (Microsoft did something right for a change!)
Another big thing is the movement from the keyboard to the pointing device... to minimize the movements, I force myself to use pointing devices with my left hand (I'm right handed - it doesn't take long to become proficient though - this might sound awkward, considering that the MS IntelliTrackball is specifically designed for right hand use, but I use my two outer fingers to move the ball, and my first finger to press the buttons).
The problem with using the pointing device with your right hand is that to reach the pointing device, you're always forced to reach all the way across the numberpad, which is a considerable distance. By using the pointing device with my left hand, my hand has a much smaller distance to travel.
Using emacs for many tasks is another thing which helps, especially on Windows running computers. I find that I can minimize, if not eliminate my interactions with a pointing device by using a tool with which I know all of the keyboard combinations for the actions I wish to perform.
Microsoft's original "Natural keyboard" tilted back, not forward. I had one of those at my previous employer. Best KB I've used. I'm currently using the v2.0 "improved" one, that will fit in a KB drawer, and tilts forward... @#$@%#. Needless to say, I left it flat. But I've managed to setup my office so I have minimal wrist bend. Now if I could just cure my hunching over the desk..... And I even have a Herman Miller chair. Aaron
I had the same problem as well, didn't go away until I switched KBs... Never did figure out the cause. However, the char only showed up in the console once I had X11 going, so it didn't seem to do any damage, just cause the occaisional beep from the speaker. Aaron
The windows keys are terribly useful under windows (which I'm assuming you don't use) so I like having them. They save a ton of time over switching to the mouse and going through the menus. I use window-r all the time.
"You can now flame me, I am full of love,"
I recommend highly against the Natural Elite because they tried to make it smaller and so use a non-standard layout of the arrow keys and edit keys that always slows me down.
I must say that the newest MS Natural Pro with the media keys is cool. Almost the same size and shape as the original MS Natural keyboard, the keys are fairly "clicky", and it has media keys which if I ever remember to use them speed things up alot. Not to mention that it is a USB hub (and USB keyboard if you lack a PS/2 keyboard port).
"You can now flame me, I am full of love,"
The other way is you hold down window key and press r which is much easier. Now I wouldn't at all mind putting the windows key somewhere else on the keyboard (maybe between the arrow keys and the edit keys, or above the edit keys by pause or something), but I do want the key. I think my most used shortcut keys on windows are win-r, win-m and win-e and when I go to a computer without that key I am much slower.
<whine>Go ahead and move the key but please don't take it away from me.</whine>
"You can now flame me, I am full of love,"
Not necessarily. I started working with computers in 1981. In 1992, I tried a trackball out at home, and quickly developed RSI, and I've had it ever since. Reason being that moving the ball, for me anyway, involves more finger actuation than the mouse, since positioning the mouse can use arm motions in addition to finger motion. Using arm motion to move a trackball means your hands are then in a different position relative to the trackball, which could make using the buttons awkward.
--
If R is the set of all sets which don't contain themselves, does R contain itself?
That should clear up if you get more fiber in your diet.
Sooo... If you light up your shit, do you get fiber-optics then?
If you open yourself to the foo, You and foo become one.
Hi there, my name is Hemos. Many of you know me from my roles as slashdot afficiando and employee. I'm not a computer-user, but I play one on TV. And I'd like to take this moment (and use my ability to post) to speak to you about my new discovery. The "Wampom Band-dangle super-chute fruit dispenser". I have been using this wonderful invention exclusively for the last several months(*1) and have to tell you how absolutely pleased I am with it! In fact, I'm so pleased, I bought one for each of my friends! It's that simple!
The "Wampom Band-dangle super-chute fruit dispenser" is one of today's most modern and efficient fruit cutters. I often wonder how I could have lived without it!!! I bought one for each of my friends! Buy your's today by calling 1-900-212-WAMP or by ordering with the toll-free service(*2) listed below. This offer is not availabile in stores!!! Act now!
Prices may vary see actual store photo for details this has been a paid advertisement and actors involved may(*3) have been awarded monetary compensation.
After I came down with multiple sclerosis, my whole right side stopped working, and now I'm typing everything left-handed only.
You might want to look at the Half Keyboard, where the space bar doubles as a shift key to access the keys that would normally be on the other side.
Will I retire or break 10K?
I have bought two Interfaces keyboards from the company (both chair-mount). I bought a full chair and keyboard system from them for home and then just the keyboard (and mounted it to a standard chair) at work. I have been using the keyboards for 2 years and haven't experienced the screw-stripping problem. However, one of my mice got screwed up and the company won't fix it. The buttons are so hard to press in that the mouse just isn't useable. I wouldn't ever buy from that company again :(
I cannot stress this enough... BYOK. Ever since I've started using an Ergo kbd several years ago, I made sure that any serious programming I did was on one. I have 4 or so ergo kbds at home, and I keep one in my suitcase at all times. As a programmer, my two greatest assets are my hands. Take care of them. :-)
Although spreading the keyboard helps, most folks could improve the situation by not cocking their wrists back. In the old days, when typing was taught on manual typewriters, there was something called proper 'technique' which involved arching the wrists. Same technique that pianists learn and concert pianists practice as many hours as many of us keyboard. They have the added advantage of a keyboard that is spread out so that they aren't stuck with their index fingers one inch apart all day.
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As a matter of fact, I am a lawyer. But I play an actor on TV.
Takes a couple days/weeks to really get used to it, but once you do it's difficult to go back to the 'standard' keyboard. I would like one in the chair that is IR run instead of wire run, that would eliminate all of the stopppage due to cable running out at other side of room stuff.
Now I'm going to have to try the Cpt Kirk chair with keyboard installed.
DanH
Cav Pilot's Reference Page
Cav Pilot's Reference Page
UNIX - Not just for Vestal Virgins anymore
I use an original model MS natural keyboard and it works great for me. I can do 16+ hr's of typing without issue.
I got it in 1995 or 1996 and it was so dirty by the begining of 2001 that I had to clean it myself. Unfortuantly it is not quite the same after my, err, putting it back together again, hehe. On the other hand, it is worlds better then the logitec wireless keyboard, my hands ache after using it. Oddly enough, I just broke the wireless keyboard (fell off of my lap, SERIOUS problem with those wireless keyboards, I start trying to type while my legs are raised at a 30degree or so incline and tend to forget that indeed, gravity exists and the keyboard has PISS POOR rubber feet, so. . . . the last drop wipped out a good number of keys, GRR, shit!)
Hehe, well. . . . Ugh, I wish somebody still made the original natural keyboards! Damn, why did M$ have to stop making them! My hands are so large that this model is the only one that I can use comfterably. . . . Hehe, None homerow typing? With my hands EVERY row is the homerow. . . .
Need help treating your acne? Come here!
The main problem is the positioning of the keyboard, mouse, display, and chair. I became afflicted with tendinitis while use the MS Natural keyboard.
Taking breaks and icing will help more than a $300 keyboard.
BTW - I use Northgate and Avant Stellar keyboards.
Fight Spammers!
I would tend to agree - when I used to work on laptops with touch pads I always found them poorly positioned in the middle of the area beneath the keyboard. This makes very little sense as you would have to bend your wrist a lot to reach them.
On a side issue, does anyone else despise the MS Natural keyboards that put the arrow keys at about a 45 degree angle from the control key? Seemed like it was very difficult to have to bend my wrist to the right to use a arrow key when combined with using the control key in some first person shooter.
I'm a great believer in luck. The harder I work the more I have of it. - Thomas Jefferson
Actually, I got a cramp in my hand a couple weeks ago, it was aching pretty badly and for a little while I thought I may have gotten CTS. Personally, I don't think a better keyboard is going to solve the problem, I think we need to focus on getting RID of the keyboard. Voice operated software is kind of an in-between, but I think the best idea would be to hook electrodes up to your head (might look goofy in version 1.0) and translate brain patterns to output (mouse as well as keyboard). I think there was a /. story not too long ago about being able to interpret brain waves as actions (remote control for TV, etc), so why couldn't they make a KB/mouse with this same concept?
---
Hammer of Truth
No way I'm spending $300+ for a friggin keyboard, I'll hire someone to type for me first.
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Hammer of Truth
This is exactly what Bluetooth is for: standardized radio communication between small devices with the encryption built in to the standard. Wires that tie you to an unhealthy position should be removed.
1) 10-key number entry (done by accountants, office secretaries, etc. All day, every day.)
2) Mouse control. An astounding number of mouse and trackball set-ups are horridly un-ergonomic, including most varieties of the beloved 3-button mouse. Many of the gadgets sold to help with this problem (like wrist rests) actually make it worse.
3) Games. No matter what your keyboard layout, serious shooter masters know that you need some form of forward-back under your middle finger, and strafe left & right under your index and ring fingers.
Personally, I don't think we will have the RSI problem solved entirely until the technolody for brain-operated data entry is developped. Experiments in this area are still in the primative stages, but I think the goal merits the occational grant to univerisities willing to do the needed biofeedback and brain-mapping research.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
I'm not surprised to see good feedback about the Kinesis keyboards. I got my first (of three, all working still) about ten years ago when tendonitis spreading up my right arm threatened to keep me from working. It's never reappeared. But I did find (when I started using Windows extensively) that mousing could get quite painful. I switched to a trackball, but even the most comfortable for me, the original Logitech Marble, hurt after a while. After a little experimentation (and after reading the discussion of pronation in the Kinesis manual) I built a bracket that lifts my trackball about 30 degrees above the horizontal, tilting it clockwise as I face it. (The "marble" side is lifted about 5 cm.) Hold your hands in the air in front of you and you'll see that they settle at about that angle. The result is not perfect -- the "marble" still demands a fair amount of thumb movement and my fingers are a little more extended than I'd like -- but it's far better for me than any mouse. If my fingers do tire, I often find curling my hand a bit (cupping my hand around the trackball) helps. Of devices I've tried, only the more recent (and more radical) "Marble FX" is nearly as comfortable. I made my first bracket out of a few of the thin steel "knockouts" from computer drive bays, but wood or the odd piece of plastic works well too. Double-stick foam core tape or velcro holds the trackball in place. I've made my contraptions with the old three-button Marbles; they're great for Linux. I suspect the scroll-wheel middle button on the newer ones might be harder to press than the old kind, but I've never used the newer model for long. For me the most comfortable place for the trackball is well forward of the keyboard so I can rest my arm on the table, but I'm sure a little experimenting will show what's best for you.
There is a wonderful FAQ at www.tifaq.com which has a lot of info about alternative keyboards and such. There are lots to choose from, including chording keyboards (a la Infogrip's BAT) and split keyboards etc. One thing to keep in mid is that the keyboard alone is not a solution. You need to practice good overall ergonomics, and this includes a good desk and chair, as well as taking breaks and repositioning yourself.
I use Windows all the time, and I can't remember ever using the Windows key or the other one that looks like a menu.
I use window-r all the time.
What's wrong with ctrl-esc-r? I'd trade the Windows keys in a second for the alt keys in the right place and a wider spacebar.
It's not being in shape or not. I'm by most standards in shape (6 miles every other day at a medium fast pace, recumbant bike and weight training on the offdays). Yet, my wrists still bothered me at the beginning of the year. When I got an ergo keyboard, the pain stopped.
Humorless sig goes here.
I started using a kinesis contoured keyboard about 4 months ago. it was a little difficult to get used to the layout, and yes, it is kinda pricey. However, since I do so much typing, my wrists were starting to really bother me on the standard keyboard. Especially when I was writing non-stop for a couple of hours or so. This keyboard allows me to type incessantly for long durations of time, usually when I have to go to the bathroom. :-)
Humorless sig goes here.
Surprisingly, on the same website for this keyboard, at top of the page, was an interesting link to a brief about Bush signing a law that repeals the OSHA ergonomics standards.
Dumbya must never really get off his knees, probably why he also cancelled press conferences forever... I feel so good knowing he truly cares about people.
Here is the blurb from the website:
Bush Signs Repeal of Ergonomics Program Rule into Law
March 21, 2001, marked the end of the present battle over ergonomics regulations as President Bush privately signed into law the repeal of OSHA's Ergonomics Program Standard. In a public statement the President wrote, "The safety and health of our nation's workforce is a priority for my administration. Together, we will pursue a comprehensive approach to ergonomics that addresses the concerns surrounding the ergonomics rule repealed today." The statement also said that Bush felt the rules imposed by his predecessor were "unduly burdensome and overly broad."
Talk of a new set of rules, friendlier to business, immediately emerged. Elaine Choa, the new Secretary of Labor stated that she would consider drafting a new set of ergonomics rules.
Many political observers believe that Bush must address this issue before the mid-term election cycle two years from now if he is going to gain the support of organized labor, a strong supporter of ergonomic workplace protections.
Basically the debate is between labor and business groups, where business reports that it would cost $100 Billion to comply, and labor feels it would force business to focus on reducing musculoskeletal disorders.
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https://www.accountkiller.com/removal-requested
www.dvorakint.org
www.catskill.net/evolution/typing
http://www.cs.rpi.edu/~whuang/misc/dvorak.html
My recent fave post, A Tribute to the Greats, saved 29m, also 38%. So the savings are pretty consistent!
However, I must note that I don't truly touch-type, and most of the people I know don't - we look at the keyboard and frequently use the wrong fingers to type stuff. I don't use the "home" row at all! So I'm sure MMMV with Dvorak. Still, I will try it when I've got some time.
sulli
RTFJ.
I use only laptops (one at work, one at home) since I'm one of those marketroids. For me the Apple PB G3 (Bronze) is super comfy; my Toshiba Portege is only okay; and my previous Toshiba Satellite was a disaster. I actually prefer the slightly smaller size of a laptop keyboard (I hate the MS Natural Keyboard and others that split the hands), but I really prefer the extra springiness and depth that the Apple has.
(Not to turn this into a "Buy a Mac" post, but...)
sulli
RTFJ.
I just got the Logitech TrackMan (wireless) and it is VERY comfortable. BTW, anyone else have a problem with their (split) keyboards (the natural keyboards which come with Dell systems) where they keep generating backtick characters once in a while in Linux. I am afraid that one day I'll inadvertantly execute something I didn't mean to by having backquotes where they weren't intended. This quote thing happens every minute or so.
See page in my .sig for lots of other things I did to conquer my repetitive strain injuries.
Sorry but I couldn't resist. :-)
I've got a laptop with a UK keyboard as well but I just set it to standard US layout. It's easy enough to remember that @ is " and vice versa since you're actually pressing the shift-2 key like you're used to to get a @, it just says shift-", that's all. There are some other keys like #, ~ and | that are in different places as well but it's the same story as with the @" swap.
I think the best thing is to set a keyboard to the language/layout you're used to, then remembering the "swapped" keys is easy anough because your fingers are used to your own language/layout.
for windows there's a program that forces you to take small breaks. I have suffered from RSI and really find that this program helps me to reduce some muscle tension.
I recently learnt to touch-type, in the beginning I hated the fact that I was having to type slower than I was used to. Now that I'm used to it I really love it and I can type faster than I could before. I find that it has been worth the effort learning.
I like the Dual 6 key feature; while being compliant with typing standards, it also gives former users/victims of Microsoft's split keyboard line a better chance. However, this probably wouldn't be my ideal choice for a first-person shooter keyboard (on single-player games, I use the left half primarily, and bind unimportant things (view menu) to the right side.
"Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world." --U.S. Circuit Judge Harry Edwards, speaking to the FCC's lawyer
But you need that menu key for when you finish building up that new computer only to find that windows with all its power and dedicated keyboard keys can't see the friggin mouse.
</SARCASM>
But I'm not bitter.
What's amazing to me isn't Microsoft's decision, it was just a part of the Win95 marketing. But why does the whole keyboard industry follow and show their Win95 ads for free?
Great, now I can use the Tux keyboard and curse Penguin Computing instead of Microsoft. Maybe I wasn't clear enough: I don't want anybody's ads on my keyboard. I use it to work.
Does anybody produce MS-free keyboards any longer?
I used to surf at least once a day for at least 2 hours, lift weights every other day and bike back and forth to school. I was in great shape. I still got RSI...who would have guessed MUDding 16 hours a day could be so hard on your body.
The pain around my knuckles and center of the top part of my hand got bad enough that I had to have an intern read/write e-mails for me at work. And rather then being a senior systems admin, I did staff training for various technical topics. Yippy. I took two weeks off of typing, and did a lot of research. This is what I ended up doing:
1) Kinesis Contour Keyboard . I was highly skeptical of this keyboard, being $250... but my hand pains were enough that I would try anything. I got it for home, the one with dual-dvorak/qwerty caps. I now swear by this keyboard so much that I would rather give up my Athlon and go back to a 486/33 if it was the only way to keep this keyboard. I then had work buy me one. It's hard to learn a new keyboard if it changes depending on where you are :) The primary advantage of this keyboard is no matter what keys you hit, your hands never move. Things that don't move, don't get stressed. I've also got some good photos of it's inards and some closeups.
2) Dvorak Keyboard Layout . I took the dive when I bought my Kinesis and immediately began learning Dvorak. Having my keyboard labeled with dual-dvorak/qwerty keys helped me a lot. Un-learning 12 years of QWERTY was by no means easy, but worth it. It was very rough to learn (took about 3 weeks to get back to normal speed), but because your fingers don't have to move as much for english words, my fingers are under a lot less stress. Doesn't help much with perl though, but Ruby's nicer syntax means my hands contort less anyways. Oh, you don't lose your qwerty skills. Whenever I type on a normal keyboard, my hand things qwerty. It associated Dvorak with the Kinesis keyboard.
3) Contour Systems Perfit Mouse . This was almost as important as the keyboard. It amazed me what a difference this made. These mice are custom to your hands. I got two 3-button mice for 7-inch hands, one lefty and one righty. I use the left handed mouse at home (my natural hand), and the right handed at work. It took some training on my right hand, but the balance makes it much less hurtful. I still get pains going to Microsoft mice or trackballs. I can't stress how excellently designed these are for your hands. Rather then pushing the end of your finger to click, you apply a very light pressure in the middle of your fingers. Less movement is less stress is less pain.
4) xwrits . This is software to remind you to take keyboard breaks. You can install it straight from /usr/ports/deskutils/xwrits in FreeBSD. This is the .xsession command line I use:
xwrits typetime=50 +finger=japanese +clock +mouse +beep +breakclock +multiply +top &
I'm going to have to set it so that locks me out of my workstation soon. I often will type "killall xwrits". Anyways, that's what I ended up doing for my situation. I can now type again quite happily, though I still get pains on normal qwerty keyboards like the one I'm on ATM at a friends house. Hand damage really sucks, I miss being able to use laptops without pain. Now I have to drag this Kinesis around.
IF YOU FEEL PAIN - STOP - TAKE BREAKS - FIX YOUR SITUATION! SEE A DOCTOR!. I cannot stress this enough. Not fixing this earlier has cost me.
Did it occurr to you to buy a seperate mouse? Most PCs have 2 PS/2 ports. Unless this is a fudged up keyboard it should only take up one of those ports. So you can easily call up logitech and order a sweet ass optical ergonomic mouse, which works excellent in any *nix system. I mean if you're willing to pay 300$ for a keyboard you can buy a seperate mouse if the mouse on the keyboard stinks. Besides, you can't play Tribes 2 with a touchpad!
The GeekNights podcast is going strong. Listen!
Since i started using Dvorak (a few weeks ago) i have noticed a significant increase in comfort and a reduction in motion. I've been doing quite a bit of programming, too and it's really nice for that. (Good semi-colon placement!) Just something to think about if you feel that you're not getting all possible performance from your keyboard, or from your wrists and fingers for that matter.
I happen to suffer from serious wrist pain and being an input freak I decided to take it all the way. Yes, I'm convinced that the Evolution keyboard is better than an old clickety-clack keyboard, but if you want to see some real damage reduction, you have to go extreme.
/.) from Eyecontrol, but it still hasn't arrived.
I decided to go for a Datahand, and at around 1500 bux I think it's the most expensive keyboard out there. I'm very happy about it, but I only type at max. 95% of my old typing speed. A little bit frustrating, but worth it. If I use a regular keyboard for more than 20 mins, it's hell. I have also tried the Kinesis Essential keyboard, which is much cheaper, but a very good ergonomic keyboard.
For a while I used a Foot switch, also from Kinesis, but this was a real waste of money. You have to always have your feet in the same place to use it, and it's waaaay too small - I kept hitting two buttons at the same time.
Since I still have some problems with my arms, I decided to go for some armrests. These are movable and kinda cool looking together with the datahand, and although the product is good quality, I don't really feel that they that much. They give a marginal improvement at best.
Oh, the built-in mouse on the Datahand sux, so I ordered a head tracked mouse (after seeing it on
I personally think that the mouse is the biggest culprit when it comes to wrist problems, but I am still considering using some kinda speech recognition software. Ok, I'm a bit geeky about this, but I'm 23, and I need these hands for many more years.
-Kraft
-Kraft
-Kraft
Live and let live
Of course you experience less movement with Dvorak. QWERTY was designed to foil the typists who "fig jammed" the old mechanical typewriters by typing to fast. The Dvorak was the original design.
Knowledge is like ignorance.. too much can be just as bad as not enough.
The split keyboards only work if you "touch-type" like they teach you in typing class. I've been using a QWERTY keyboard since I was 12 (I am now 33) and I have no CTS that I know of and I don't think I could ever stand the loss in productivity that it would cost for me to re-learn to touch type, using the "correct" fingers for the correct keys and correct and position.
I often times wonder if it is my wild hand movement and ingrained inability to touch type that has kept me free of RSI all these years of programming?
Knowledge is like ignorance.. too much can be just as bad as not enough.
Thanks! Sorry for being MIS-informative. What kind of keyboard layout was used prior to QWERTY?
Knowledge is like ignorance.. too much can be just as bad as not enough.
I need to be able to type single handed whilst holding manual/magazine/printout in the other.
insert joke about one-handed typing
FYI -- before flipping your desk over to install that heavy mounting hardware, take a good look at the slide rails. This heavy keyboard drawer I purchased looked like it was going to be a similar bitch to install -- until I discovered you could slide the rails completely out. Failing that, you might also try to unbolt the rails from the tray.
I'd first held that heavy assembly up, but rather than try and drill, or even mark the holes, I only marked the corners for one side. Removing that rail, I then held it up and marked the drill holes, drilled, and installed that rail.
I then slid the keyboard assembly onto that rail, and supported by the one side, I was easily able to mark the drill holes. I then removed the assembly from the side already installed (being careful not to let the weight bend the mounts on that side), removed the rail on the other side, drilled and installed the other side. The assembly finally slid onto both mounts.
apologies. It's Jef Raskin www.jefraskin.com, not with double-f!!
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yours ever, fz.
Not loaded toward Dvorak. The numbers are relative to the home row. Not a single letter in QWERTYIOP is even on the home row. Technically then, the distance is shorter in your example.
So there.
I should clarify.
Not a single letter in QWERTYIOP is on the home row on a QWERTY keyboard, whereas there are about four of those letters on the Dvorak keyboard that are on the home row, so the total finger distance travelled ends up being shorter than if typed on the QWERTY.
There's nothing in your post indicating you're a strict proponent of one layout over the other, but I get the idea you don't buy the idea of a supremely better layout in Dvorak.
There are some studies that refute the benefits of the Dvorak keyboard, sure, but any substantial studies done to date are about as outdated and unscientific as could be. What's there to refute in the fact that less finger travel equals more comfort, equals higher sustainable speeds over longer periods of time, equals higher overall speeds?
It should interest you to know that the highest ever clocked typist was tested on a Dvorak simplified keyboard. Guiness says so.
Being educated on this matter, given that I've probably read every QWERTY versus Dvorak article, including the hotly debated Fable Of the Keys, I shouldn't lose sight of the true purpose of the Dvorak layout -- comfort, not speed. Chances are, speed is a direct result of being comfortable at a keyboard, but then again when we say "superiority," what exactly are we comparing? Being specific in this case is key to being objective.
I was the one that posted the URL at the top of this sub-thread. The numbers that Java applet produce are clear; this is about as close to scientific as a test gets, despite the grey factor of individual human keyboarding potential. One can't help but see this.
For those among you not easily convinced by simple Dvorak testimontials, here's a Java applet that hands out the breakdown for any sentence or paragraph pasted in,
t ml
http://www.acm.vt.edu/~jmaxwell/dvorak/keyboard.h
I've been very happy with the Logitech Wireless Desktop package... It has the wireless ergo keyboard, which is very nice, split like my old 1st gen MS natural which died when I got the cord tangled up while using it on my laptop and tripped over it (hence, new keyboard is wireless) and the Logitech wireless mouseman. The only real complaint I have is that there is not a bundle that includes the wireless trackman. I would gladly have ponied up an extra $20 for that (wireless mouse seems stupid because you need to have it on a desktop-direction flat surface, can't run it up the wall if you're back away from the computer...)
Due to growing up in a tiny-tiny town with no money to upgrade the typewriters in the high school, I learned on a manual. The first typewriter I owned was, in fact, a manual (Smith-Corona Classic Twelve). As a consequence, I haven't had even the smallest difficulty with repetitive motion injuries, despite having recently typed a 154,000 word novel. My hands do cramp up while using the tiny keyboards on Compaq machines. This was solved by using the ErgoForce keyboard by KeyTronic; it has an added advantage of being very cheap. One problem to be noted: because of my initial training with manual typewriters, I go through keyboards with alarming regularity. The ErgoForce keyboard has lasted about a year. I figure it'll last about another six months before I pound it to pieces. For those not fortunate enough to have trained on a manual, there are exercises you can perform regularly (about every hour or so while typing) that will enable you to fend off CTS. Google came up with a few things. Here are illustrations of the exercises. There's a nice article about it here. There is even a hand-fitness guru out there, Greg Irwin, with advice and stuff to sell at www.handhealth.com.
I mean, really. Some 90% of all the computer keyboards out there tilt in the wrong direction! That's unequivocably the manufacturer's fault.
Employers have to share a lot of the blame, too. Why don't they buy ergonomic keyboards for everybody, instead of just for those that complain, when it's already too late? Is $200 too much to pay to ensure an employee's good health?
Yes, it makes a difference how you use the things - sit up straight, take regular breaks, stretch your muscles from time to time. But don't overlook the importance of having the right equipment.
If you ever do get CTS or some other RSI, you'll gladly pay whatever someone asks for a device like that. Of course, if people were a little more aware of ergonomics, maybe we could prevent the injuries in the first place.
Folks, if you spend any significant amount of your workday typing, you owe iut to yourself to investigate your options.
I figure this requires a response.
Having got used to the HHKB, including changing the left meta key to another Fn key, I can get around the Alt-Fn-Ctrl issues just fine (one fingure manages the alt and left meta key together). As I say, I became quite comfortable with the keyboard, and especially liked the close proximity of the Esc key.
The problems I had was moving to other machines (like going in to the server room and wiping a shutdown message by mistake using Caps-Lock d instead of Ctrl-D. Or getting a "`" when I want to hit escape. These things all become bugging. It simply was more inconvenient and productivity destroying to have to change my "mental state" when using keyboards on different machines, than to conform to the norm. I still maintain a trackball at my workstation though.
In response to your last comment, I suggest that you re-read my original post. I am afraid that you got the situation reversed. I have Caps-D problems when I am NOT at the HHKB, thus, I was perfectly adjusted to the HHKB.
.. if only.
Regardless, Trackballs are always in the same place, require far less movement to get accross the screen, are much more precise and accurate, and never get "lost" on the desk. Further, there is no need for a mousepad, and there is less risk of injury. Problem with some trackballs, the same as mice, is that some are right/left hand incompatible.
.. if only.
I am thr proud owner of a Happy Hacker keyboard. I must admit that got used to it in a hurry, and my productivity in most activities increased.
Unfortunately, not everyone has a HHKB, and moving from one machine to another introduced huge amounts of frustration. The unix commandline became a pain, vi is a nighmare with me regularly trying to hit ctrl-D to go down a page, but instead hit CAPS-LOCK then D and effectively delete to end of line. Issues like this are a serious drawback.
Bottom line is that I have retired my HHKB, and endure the less ergonomic but more standard full keyboards.
If you work in a closed system where you have only one computer, or all your computers have the same keyboard, then go for it. Otherwise, it may become too comfortable, and then yu will not be able to smoothly interface with other keyboards.
A further example is that I have a laptop with a UK Layout keyboard, and my desktop has a US Layout. I have hat fo install a US keyboard on the laptop otherwise I go mad with @ instead of ".
.. if only.
This may be exactly what I'm looking for! Thanks a lot! Now I have to find a local dealer so I can try one -- I showed the web page to my wife, and she's interested too. Thanks again.
If all this should have a reason, we would be the last to know.
I would have to relinquish my computer to afford this keyboard! This one (the one you bought?) is more affordable, but it doesn't look like the hands are angled to use it comfortably. Still, I'd like to try it. Thanks for the reference, and I'm glad you like yours.
If all this should have a reason, we would be the last to know.
What I'm waiting for is a keyboard where I can pull the keys off and place them back down wherever I want them. If I want "A" next to "P" that's my business! If I want the left and right halfs to mirror each other, that's my business, too, and it makes far more sense to me than any of the "ergonomic" layouts I've tried (or seen).
If all this should have a reason, we would be the last to know.
As a programmer, my two greatest assets are my hands.
Naah. Too easy. I'll wait for a less obvious straight line.
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www.lucernesys.comHorizon: Calendar-based personal finance
type mostly with one hand?
No, I have no RSI, CTS or other keyboard-induced sickness. I have 2 other problems: ALFA-LOCK and mouse switching, both giving terrible amounts of errors.
Imagine that your keyboard has a separate capslock for every Window. Now, you begin typing a phrase and see it in capital letters, though you printed in other window with small ones. You switch to small letters and press BS, then try to print - and see that menu is called instead. Terrible? Yes. But it's so: localized Windows uses ALT/SHIFT as Alphabet lock
Mouse switching is not easier: when Xerox, Apple and MICROS~1 produced their "Desktop metaphor" they forgot that we have no separate hand to keep a mouse. So, every time I switch from mouse to keyboard I must reposition hands looking at the keyboard (Or creeping with my fingers for F-J-5 tactile mark).
Both problems aren't solved with any "ergonomic" keyboard, possibly except Datahand. But Datahand's mouse looks problematic.
I've tried to find an alternative input methodology in Internet - and failed. Everything - Datahand, BAT, Wlonk, Twiddler, Keybowl, Alphagrip, DataEgg, etc - has specific deficiencies and - moreover - the interface is so based on the standard keyboard that any modifications not directly mapping the alternative keyboards to standard ones become extremely complex. And they don't solve the ALFA LOCK problems, since they are invented in English-speaking countries.
There's nothing in your post indicating you're a strict proponent of one layout over the other, but I get the idea you don't buy the idea of a supremely better layout in Dvorak.
I really was just trying to offer some alternate opinions (not an advocate either way). Personally, I believe that the dvorak is probably better--the applet you posted is pretty convincing. (Though "supremely better" seems like an overstatement to me.) Fortunately, I don't have RSI, but if you do, it seems like every little bit will help, and dvorak looks like a good thing to look into.
Slightly OT, but does RSI affect other occupations? I played piano when I was kid, 3 hours a day for 10+ years and never had a problem.
Disclaimer: I've never use a dvorak keyboard. But there are some studies that refute the superiority of the dvorak keyboard. There's an entry about the dvorak at http://www.urbanlegends.com/misc/dvorak.html. There are links at the bottom of the page to some articles. Also, for you Straight Dope fans, Cecil has handled the topic as well: http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_248.html
However, I would distrust the ergonomic judgement of a company that puts a touchpad on a system designed for RSI sufferers; I think touchpads have many problems. It seems to me that a large mouse with foot pedals for buttons would be preferable: you'd get a regular break from typing (as you move your hand to the mouse), and you give your fingers a break (as you can use your arm to move the mouse and your feet for clicking).
But if you suffer from RSI and have tried a variety of pointing devices, it would be interesting to hear your experience. It might help others avoid similar problems.
in case you didn't realize, RF is everywhere, and we have been bathed in it for millions of years. Especially now that we have radio stations broadcasting 24/7 everywhere you go, we're always bathed in it. Add in the cell phones now operating in the microwave frequencies, and, well, you get my point. In order for it to get bad though we'd have to be exposed to a few hundred times the power that we're currently exposed to.
If God gave us curiosity
as a solution to the cable problem, use wireless!
and as a solution to the screw problem, use better screws!
seriously though, I've been using a normal Logitech wireless "natural" keyboard for months, and I used to have hand problems, now I don't! It's great, I have a comfy chair and a lap-desk thing, so I can move all over the place, free of cables. I attached a gel pad to the front of the keyboard (it came with a ?! stupid hard plastic wrist wrest) and it's my saviour. Heck, I even brought it to France with me. Don't need $300USD either, this setup cost me just under $100.
However, I'm still interested in getting a lazy boy setup! Hook me up with one of those, mounted dual keyboard, computer integrated into the base and a LCD screen that can be moved (via an arm of course) to anywhere in front of my view (i.e. so if I'm laying down I can move it to be in front of me), and I'd pay $$$$$$ for that!
-- Telek
If God gave us curiosity
The Qwerty keyboard layout was designed in 1872. The Dvorak keyboard layout was designed in 1932. Since then, many people have sat around and argued which is better. But it's not clear that either one is truly the best.
I think they are both pretty good. But I'm confident that today we can do better. And this is a project that I've just started to look into.
I'm currently an SDE, but most of my graduate work was in theory. There are two reasons why I think we can do better today:
A) We have developed many algorithms that can solve or closely approximate hard optimization problems.
B) We have computers.
I've broken the problem of determining a good keyboard layout into the following steps:
1) Determine what people actually type. I'm not quite sure how to best do this. Ideally, everyone would send me a file which captured the key strokes that they've made over the past decade. Realistically, I was thinking of simply gathering data from the web, and using word frequency data.
2) Determine how to effectively model typing. There are some interesting experiments that show that, for example, your index finger is faster and stronger than your pinky. Also, you can type more efficiently if the keys you need to type alternate hands. Here are some interesting reports on typing micro-benchmarks and such. The goal of this model would be to tell you how efficient a particular keyboard layout is. Until I read otherwise, I'm assuming that maximizing efficiency also maximizes ergonomics.
3) Develop an algorithm. This is the fun part. Develop an alorithm which searches the very large search space of possible keyboard layouts and find one which is as close to optimal as possible as defined by the efficiency of the model. I may find that this optimization problem is best expressed at a semidefinite program, or such, but it will be interesting to see where the model takes me.
4) Real world test. I have no illusions of gradeur. I don't expect people to come rushing to try out the keyboard layout I design. But I'm hoping that I can convince a few people to try it out and give it a test drive.
I would like to post this as an "ask slashdot" after I make more progress and can give more specifics, but does anyone have some good suggestions at this point? I'm especially interested in information concerning (1) and (2). Can anyone point me to other keyboard research?
BTW, I currently have two Kinesis Ergo keyboards (one for work and one for home) which can switch between qwerty and dvorak. I highly recommend them. There are many reasons I prefer them over a normal keyboard, but the biggest reason is the thumb keys. When the standard computer keyboard was designed, they just took the qwerty keyboard layout and added function keys around the edges. Thus, on a standard keyboard, the pinky (the weakest finger) is completely overworked while the thumbs (the stongest "finger") hardly break a sweat.
"The only rights you have are the rights you are willing to fight for."
The Kinesis "Evolution" is not an evolutionary step for Kinesis. It's a step backwards.
I have two Kinesis Ergo keyboards, and love them. The design of these keyboards is completely new and very ergonomic. But I believe Kinesis has a hard time selling them since it takes a while to get used to them because they are so different.
Microsoft, and many other companies, took the low road: make a keyboard that is a little more ergonomic, but very easy to use if you are already accustomed to a normal keyboard. These keyboards sell very well, mainly because there is very little retraining time required.
I really repected Kinesis when it came out with the Ergo since it really is an evolutionary step in keyboard design. And my hands rejoice in its use. Every other keyboard makes my hands hurt after a full day of coding.
But the "Evolution" is basically the same keyboard design as a standard keyboard, with the exception that you can move the seperate halves around as desired. This *might* be beneficial if your cheif problem is back and neck pain, but it's likely a step in the wrong direction if your problem is with your hands.
"The only rights you have are the rights you are willing to fight for."
You make two statements. Both of them are false.
Of course you experience less movement with Dvorak. QWERTY was designed to foil the typists who "fig jammed" the old mechanical typewriters by typing to fast.
It's true that Qwerty was designed to reduce jams. However, they did this by designing the key layout so that it would maximize the amount of alternation between hands. As a small example, the keys used to type the word "flake" alternate between the left and right side perfectly. Most words, of course, do not alternate perfectly, but Qwerty does alternate better than Dvorak. The fact that Qwerty was designed to alternate is one of the reasons that it is not such a bad keyboard layout since alternation also allows more efficient typing.
The Dvorak was the original design.
This is just false. Qwerty was designed in 1872. Dvorak was designed in 1932.
Thanks for playing.
"The only rights you have are the rights you are willing to fight for."
The logitech keyboard uses wireless RF. Have there been any studies on the affect of surrounding ourselves with RF devices for most of the day?
I'm just concerned (paraniod?) that instead of getting RSI, now we'll get cancer. I would much rather have RSI.
"The only rights you have are the rights you are willing to fight for."
Qwerty was the first keyboard layout of its kind. There may have been preliminary versions, but I don't think these were ever produced in quantity.
The first full featured typewriter that was developed had one key for each symbol: no shift. Because it had so many keys, operators used the hunt and peck method because there wasn't a good way to touch-type.
I've heard that the Qwerty layout didn't have touch typing in mind when it was developed, but it didn't take long for someone to figure it out. Shortly after, the inventor of touch typing (forget his name) beat the raigning typing speed champ and the age of touch typing on the qwerty was born.
I'm not sure if that story is true. It's hard to believe that Qwerty wasn't developed for touch typing.
"The only rights you have are the rights you are willing to fight for."
What you want is a Maltron.
They make one-handed keyboards just for people like you. They're a little pricey, but you have to admit that they can't exactly spread out their development costs the same way that other companies can with more popular models.
Until the designers start to realise that we're not all 6' tall
Actually, dude, I'm 6'3", and the world is not designed for me at all. Chairs, cars, desk height, door ways, door knobs, etc. I personally think the perfect height is 5'11": tall enough to be "tall" and short enough to fit everything well.
"The only rights you have are the rights you are willing to fight for."
Do you want your environment Ergonically Adaptable to suit your computing needs?
... but do they eliminate C.V.S. (Computer Vision Syndrome). Check out our website... http://www.nite-surfer.com
These split keyboards solve one problem
Soon we hope to have these out in many varieties of keyboards.... like Standard 104, Wave/Split Ergonomic model, Laptops, PDA's , and wireless RF keyboards.
However , I am interested to try this keyboard... for experience sake if nothing else. There are some other cool keyboards and sites on how to MOD your own....
Anyway check out these pages
Half Baked --- Illuminated Laptops
Back lit Keyboards
Hardforum Site:
Topic: Lighted Keyboard Suppliers Topic:
Topic: Keyboard Mod - Part 2
Topic: laptop keyboard mod
Topic: Keyboard mod...guide to follow on VH
Topic: Where can I find??
Topic: Mod #1 - Keyboard
Illuminated Laptops ????
Panasonic Toughbook - Brochure
Says it is Backlit keyboard but not very apparent
Another Backlit Laptop No pic listed
Tracer Keyboard & Computer --- Tracer Keyboard
A Flexible Keyboard -- Flex Keyboard
A Vertical Keyboard --- Vertical Keyboard
David Byrd
CEO - 21st Century Tech., Inc.
URL: http://www.nite-surfer.com
David Byrd
CEO - 21st Century Tech., Inc.
URL: http://www.nite-surfer.com
See our Illuminated Keyboard
Keep trying, someday, something you say may actually make sense!
Fit one to a bean bag? I wouldnt do my coding from anywhere else!
I have seen one somewhere, but that was a couple years ago. The keyboard lifted up and pulled apart for the more natural layout.
Hi---I haven't had any problems with pain in my wrists, etc., but have had many friends who have developed RSIs over the years, some so bad that they had to consider changing jobs. I just bought an Interfaces keyboard (split, chair-mounted) and will install it on my Aeron tomorrow. Anyhow, one product which I can really recommend is a free-standing monitor/keyboard stand made by Ergotron (called the Mobile Workstand), www.ergotron.com. It's pretty expensive (around $1000) but it holds both your LCD monitor (in my case a SGI 1600sw) and your keyboard on separate independently adjustable arms. These arms are themselves mounted on a steel pole which is on wheels, so the whole assembly moves around freely. I think that this is a big improvement over putting a monitor on a desk and mounting a keyboard tray underneath it; without the constraint of the desk, one can easily move the whole setup around one's body, etc. I find myself crouching over a lot less. If you need to work on a desk and your computer at the same time, you can wheel it around next to your desk however you please. The Ergotron stand is extremely solidly built (I think that it is designed to be wheeled through hospital corridors), easy to self-adjust, and in every way fun to use. Best, Michael Chwe
Slightly off topic but hopefully germinal.
Recently, while perusing Jef Raskin's book "The Humane Interface", I noticed an interesting design for keyboard key repeat behavior on pages 184 and 185. Mr. Raskin attributes this idea to one John Bumgarner who worked with him at Information Appliance.
The problem is this- For a key to repeat, you have to press and *wait* for the key to start repeating. If your cat sits on the keyboard (and mine does) you will have a mess in whatever document you are using. I myself have the tendency to pause in the middle of writing as I think about changing a sentence I've already planned out. My finger is usually hovering over the next planned key while I think. As I think, my finger comes closer and closer to the key as I juggle in my head whether to change the sentence or not. Unfortunately, I generally find that I'm actually pressing the key, and have been doing for some time.
Older folks and those with neuronal problems also have difficulties in dealing with key repeat behavior so much so that recommendations are generally to *disable* the key repeat on the computer.
The solution is interesting and very simple.
Mr. Bumgarner noted that if you want to repeat something, you generally only want to use key repeat if it occurs five or more times. He also noted that in most phonetic languages, a character is almost never used three or more times in a row.
So, instead of pressing and holding a key (don't forget the 500 millisecond wait for auto repeat to kick in). You press the key *three* (or more) times and hold it down at the end of the third. You then only need a 100 millisecond wait before the repeat action starts.
In addition, pressing the same key multiple times and then holding is actually faster than pressing and holding the key as you don't have to wait for the auto repeat delay.
A very small change which very nicely sorts out all the problems.
As Mr. Raskin did not give a name to this feature, I modestly propose "Smart Repeat" so that folks can have a handle to discuss, web search for, and look for in product brochures.
Now, my question is, are there any keyboards which implement this? (As an option I assume).
Are there any software add-on's for Windows, Mac, and Unix based machines which will effect this behavior with a normal keyboard?
I've already checked for BeOS, and due to the architecture of the system in allowing input stream filters to be installed in a organized manner, I'm going to break into C++ enough to attempt to write this myself.
As I understand PC keyboard behavior when you press a key, you get a KEYDOWN, followed by a KEYPRESS, followed (after a delay) by more keyboard KEYPRESS signals as you continue to hold down a key, finally followed by a KEYUP signal when you release the key.
[Any pointers as to how a Mac works with the keyboard would be appreciated.]
It should be very simple to create a state machine which will *eat* the a keyboards self generated KEYPRESS signals, and assuming you set the auto repeat delay as short as possible you can have a software equivalent behavior of a hardware implementation of smart repeat.
This shouldn't even impact game use on your PC as I'm assuming that a game actually looks for the KEYDOWN and KEYUP signals while ignoring the KEYPRESS entirely.
Now obviously, this would be much better handled by the keyboard itself.
This is getting too long already but I would like to end this by saying that I'm a Kinesis Ergo keyboard user, and just last week I visited the Kinesis offices near me in to pick up a foot pedal and to ask for a feature request on their products firmware. I was very warmly received, and they asked if they could photocopy the cover of "The Humane Interface" book I brought with me to back me up. After hearing the advantages of this idea, I was given a whole host of reasons of why this would possibly be expensive to implement, going all the way down to OEM chip set fabrication by suppliers, which, for all I know are quite valid.
It was then suggested that I contact Intel and Microsoft and request that these changes be made part of the PC platform specification..
Ouch!
Anyway the reason I'm relating that last part to you, is so those Kinesis keyboard owners can contact Kinesis and put pressure on such a development. As an option. We know we have the best [ermmmmm..] keyboard in the world.
Anyway, thanks for reading my post. Hopefully this will cause an awareness of this idea to spread.