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Mozilla 0.9 Out
Malicose writes: "Mozilla 0.9 is out. Improvements include Automatic Proxy Configuration, Personal Security Manager 2.0 with improved performance and UI, and rewritten from scratch image rendering library." Someday this may very well be the best browser in the world. I write this in konqueror, and hope Moz 0.9 uses half the RAM and is twice as fast and convinces me to switch back.
This is a well-known bug with Citibank's site.
7 4
It is not a Mozilla problem.
For details:
http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=570
In a related note, when are X509 Certs for signing/encrypting mail going to be used? This is something that I feel should be in before 1.0, and is the last thing that is keeping me using "Fucking Netscape 4 point X" (as it is known to the guys at work).
IE *really* doesn't handle memory properly. When I have moderator status I go to any /. discussion with > 100 or so comments (nested mode) and scroll a bit, and laugh as IE dies, and suddenly all my other programs start to die or give me the standard "out of memory" errors.
:)
Mozilla under windows doesn't have this problem
Copying software that is not licensed that way is theft.
Nope. It's still just copyright infringement. It's an artificial legal construct to try to give some incentive for creators to continue to create stuff. Not to give them absolute ownership over what they create. They don't actually own the work that they create, they simply own a copyright over that work.
If you want to argue that infringing on a copyright is immoral, I would agree. However, I would also insist that the copyright term extensions that have been bought by the copyright industry are also immoral (especially retroactive extensions as there is no possible way they could provide incentive to create works that have already been created). They don't have any compunctions about using their power to screw the public out of works that should have become public domain by now. I think that the public is starting to lose its compunctions about infringing on copyrights. What goes around comes around I guess.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Remember, the copyright laws allow the GPL to exist just as much as they allow proprietary software to exist.
I'm well aware of this. I'm not against Copyright per se. I'm against the seemingly endless term extensions and further restrictions of our fair use rights. Roll the law back to something more reasonable (such as a term that is shorter thna a human lifespan, preferably much shorter), then get rid of the more onerous portions of the DMCA, and I'd be willing to support copyright. As it exists today, it does nothing but screw people.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
You're also forgetting the "They should give up because IE is the best; why NS tries to compete with IE I'll never know, and Windows 2K never crashes for me" trolls.
Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
It's free (libre and gratis) software.
It's multi platform (something konq will never be (and should never be)).
STOP COMPLAINING!
I've only tried it on this linux box (amd 700, 128 megs) but it seems really fast. After clicking around a good bit, it's using some ram, but significantly less than X (according to top, which is known to lie without shame, particularly with memory).
Try it. You'll like it. And if you don't, try konq, or better yet, help the developers make it (either one) better. Even if you just submit bug reports, it helps greatly.
Zapman
Yea baby :)
Novel theory: Modern Man evolved from psychopath
I'll second this, Opera has become my primary Windows browser. I tried (and keep trying) Mozilla but the issues others keep ragging on kept me from adopting it. Opera does have its share of problems, including ones similar to IE with lots of dropdown listboxes on many open windows but overall it is more stable than IE (I still crash it, but not as often) and best of all, it remembers the websites you have open when it crashes. The key to getting used to Opera is in the prerferences, it will seem very strange freshly installed. But a few miniutes checking out various options will get you a browser that isn't very much different from IE or Netscape. Every Netscape 4.x user on windows owes it to themselves to spend some time with it, they just might find they have been missing out on something good.
Chris Cothrun
Curator of Chaos
Bleh!
MTBF For these builds is estimated at 2.168467 hours, based on 1976 reports and 4284.890000 hours of user testing from testers that have crashed and reported problems. (dev. builds tend to have low MTBF)
Hey, thats pretty good, considering the status of the product and the fact that everyone complains about it so much. Those are cold hard numbers that shout "NO, It doesn't crash that often!"
Of course, thats unacceptable for a production release. Any talkback MTBF numbers available for Netscape 4.x? What are the goals for MTBF?
Oh, and BTW, I do have serious reasons for asking, I'm working on a Kiosk style project where we're considering moving from a custom app to a browser based product and need to consider this kind of thing.
Chris Cothrun
Curator of Chaos
Bleh!
Part of the problem is that Mozilla chose to write a good amount of the browser in Javascript. Another part of the problem is that they basically implemented their own distributed component model from scratch, as well as their own widgets, instead of using platform libraries and widgets. I understand the decision to use custom widgets (especially for the HTML), but the custom distributed component model was quite silly. Mozilla is basically GNOME re-implemented running one application. Personally, I find running Mozilla embedded in Galeon to be much, much better. This way Galeon handles all of the non-HTML stuff through GNOME, while Mozilla just does the HTML rendering.
Engineering and the Ultimate
Well, they could have used CORBA, since it does exist everywhere. Or they could have done it the AbiWord way, and use each platform's own component model.
Engineering and the Ultimate
Why is it any more insecure to include the root CAs in Mozilla than to include the SSL code in the first place? Surely that is equally open to tampering?
(Ie, not very, given that all changes to the code must be from known developers or reviewed by known developers.)
-- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
It seems that the major roadblock is legal review of the crypto-in-main policy amendment. But of course, this proposal is 117 days old as of this writing... with no new news that I've been able to detect.
Does anyone have a clue what the holdup is?
Who's going to see that besides people logging in right at the console anyway? I'd be more worried about them stealing the machine than portscanning me. Even issue.net should never get displayed. I mean, what security-conscious person is running Telnet?
-Vic
Well, I have been running the nightly builds of Mozilla for quite some time now, and I am very happy with the speed improvements that have been landed over the past few weeks.
Mozilla stopped feeling slugish for me about two weeks ago, and ever since it has kept on improving. Great work everyone!
miguel.
there is java support.
Javascript support is pretty good too. Not everything is supported with javascript, but most is.
It gets better by the day.
-- Thrakkerzog
I started using Linux because I couldn't afford software (Photoshop, Visual Studio, etc.) for Windows (not to mention being sick of rebooting and curious about Unix). I was unwilling to use illegal copies of software as it is stealing and I have moral standards to live by.
Believe it or not, many GNU/Linux/BSD users do not consider stealing "not that bad of a solution"...
Point.
I should have said copyright violation. Abiding by copyrights is important if you want to use the GPL and don't want to be a hypocrite.
Abiding by the law is also important. Consider Aristotle who drank the belladonna despite knowing he was innocent and being given plenty of opportunity to escape. He honored the decision of the Senate because he believed that without law there is no civilization and without civilization man is little more than an animal. Of course there is the counter argument that unjust laws should not be followed, but who decides what is just and what is unjust? That is what Congress is for. Congress is corrupt you say? Then we must work to improve it, because a better system has yet to be implemented.
Did I say Aristotle? Doh! I'm an idiot.
It's been ages since I read Plato... please excuse my ignorance.
Socrates, not Aristotle.
Yeah, its called libpr0n, although then its called something else for the public, imglib2 or something?
I think they should have just stuck with libpr0n for the public too, anyone who would find that distasteful probably wouldn't even know what pr0n refers to to get the joke anyways. They'd just think it was some computer mumbo-jumbo.
FiGZ.COM - A waste of perfectly good web space
I'm using a ver that was built back in febuary... I have like 192 megs of ram, plus 30 megs of swap in use at the moment... and mozilla is only using at most 20% of memory... thats after its been up for two or three days, with atleast two windows at any given time.
---
I tried Opera and found that it did not handle plugins that well. I find konq to handle the plugins a little better. I still use Netscape 4 to visit Cnet and watch cnet tv, as mozzilla .8 didn't work at that site and neither did opera, or konq.
I think that when mozilla reaches its 1.0 release it may be worth a second look at, but if they just rewrote the image rendering again, then doesn't it beg the question of how many bugs that introduced?
I then look at the system requirements of mozilla and have to say that you are better off with opera, netscape 4.x even. konq is good, and would do fine with those requirements, but it is a little bit of a beast itself too.
Oh and watch out when converting profiles from netscape to mozilla. When .8 did the conversion on mine it too the .netscape directory and grew it emensly, from 7Meg to almost 100 Meg. Why I don't know, but it did. Not sure if this is a bug or what, but I suspect that they are storing the data differently. Besides, why do I have to create a profile for a browser? yes there should be preferences, but not a profile when you start it up. That is really obnoxious. Maybe a prompt "would you like to create a profile" rather than forcing me to create a default profile.
It would be so nice if you could just install just the browser, with NO references to anything else, no composer, no mail, just the browser, AND then configure the browser to use an external mail app, unlike netscape 4.
Can you say.. scope creap / feature creap???
I don't want a lot, I just want it all!
Flame away, I have a hose!
Only 'flamers' flame!
Opera is available for Linux as well, I use it at work and it works very well.
-- Remember: Wherever you go, there you are!
http://www.kmeleon.org/
Warning: This is a REALLY basic browser. But it exists.
Caution: Now approaching the (technological) singularity.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
This was on my RedHat 6.2 box.
Not only would it not read SSL pages for me (it just showed a blank page), it crashed on me while I was trying to poke around in the menus to see if there was a toggle to turn on SSL.
PeterM
I don't know about 0.9 but nightly builds used to have this bug still two weeks ago. SSL through proxy didn't work at all. It's fixed in the nightly builds.
...is the non-existance of a tabbed browsing feature/chrome. Look at http://www.netcaptor.com/ (browser I use on the winbox now, uses IE engine) for an example of that.
It's just so much easier to have every new window be a tab...popups never annoy me, taskbar buttons don't get unmanagably small, and so on, and so forth.
-Is- anyone working on something like this for Mozilla? I'd love to know.
-- Veni, vidi, dormivi
I'm speaking with regards to my Win32 box; I'm already using mozilla on the Linux one
(Why do I have a win32 box? Games. That is why that box exists, why it will continue to exist until WINE becomes perfect or a lot of games get ported (and old ones backported) to Linux; don't try to persude me to switch on that machine).
-- Veni, vidi, dormivi
Yes, but will it make Julianne Fries?
--
--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
I must say that I agree with everyone who talks about how good konq has become. I used to use Netscape 4.x all the time. Then when my GlibC libs didn't want to work with netscape I was forced to used konq. Two weeks later when I had everything sorted out I found konq to be so much more then netscape had been. Faster loading, less memory, faster rendering. I couldn't see myself going back. One of the best parts is that because I run kde the entire enviorment has 1 theme. The browser looks and acts the same as the rest of my desktop. And libs that are used in konq are used in other applications making the total memory usage of my system less. That in itself is worth quite a bit (common ui accross my desktop). I have tried Mozzilla a number of times over the past year, but each time it was less then what I needed. Who knows if this is better then my current konq (kde 2.1.1) , but at this point I havn't found a page (for me personally) that my current konq can't handle and konq looks the same as everything else. When I try out mozzilla I am sure that it will load 30 extra mb of xml, ui, and the backend portable libraries. I know that these are good and all, but I don't really care for all that. All I want it a simple clean browser and so far konq does that for me. I will await the .9 reviews. (and take a look at it myself)
Do you changes clothes while making the "chee-chee-cha-cha-choh" transformation sound?
I'll use nothing else nowadays. If the banner ad at the top dosent bother you, its the fastest browser out there, and quite standards compliant. They even have a native flash plug-in now.
http://www.opera.com/
my other penis is a vagina
Opera.
Fast, light, solid. Not free, but worth the bucks. A fine example of what Windows software ought to be. Cheap, good, AND fast.
Yeah, yeah, call me a heretic for recommending something that ain't free, much less not berating her for not running Linux.... fsck it, I yearn for the old days when you had to know a few things to get on the 'net. But I'm not gonna be a sourpuss about it. If they figure out the Linux guys are helpful, just maybe we'll get a few converts. :)
For some reason, I always have to login twice. The first time nothing happens and the page just reloads, the second time I'm logged in properly. This is not a mozilla problem since I have this problem with any browser (I tried konq, opera, ie). Also it happens on any computer I tried (so it is not a connection issue either). My guess is that the login scripts are a bit messy (probably due to the use of perl), not in the last place beacause slashdot seems to be the only site where I have this problem.
Jilles
++ Say to Elrond "Hello.".
Elrond says "No.". Elrond gives you some lunch.
I was just going to ask that very question, if using talkback helped at all - I've been trying to use Talkback the whole time and have the .9 Talkback build installed now. It just caught a nasty bug dealing with a odd SSL certificate...
One thing I was wondering though is if it made any difefrence adding in comments and URL's. I add them anyway figuring it might help, but wasn't sure people ever read them.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Here's a sample crash analysis page. Watch out, this page is 2+ MB.
>After for first two or three crashes, I stop :-)
>sending them because I fear my duplicate
>Talkback bug reports are causing some Netscape
>employee to curse my name.. "damn! it's that
>same guy sending in a dozen bug reports for the
>same silly crash!"
Heh. Not quite. The crash reports go to a database, not to people. If Mozilla crashes for you during normal everyday use, then you should report each crash. The most common crashes are the ones that tend to get the most attention so if you neglect to report all your crashes, then you're just making them look less common. I'm not sure exactly how the data is tabulated but it can't hurt to report each crash.
On the other hand if you crash in the same place over and over to just spam talkback then yes, you'll be cursed at.
Javascript is supported more than just "pretty good". If you're talking about DOM support this statement makes a little more sense. Mozilla does not support all of the Communicator 4.x and IE proprietary DOM stuff. Layers implemented using the Comm. 4.x or IE methods will not work in Mozilla but Layers implemented using W3C standards should work, for example.
--Asa
Mozilla is getting really nice. I know it's come slow, but it's here, and think about where it was a year ago. The advancement is stunning. I've only been using it everyday for like 5 months now but gaah it's awesome.
I've just been playing with .9 a bit, and it appears that the Junkbuster proxy actually works with it! Woo hoo!
--
Are you building yourself? Or using the nightlys?
It runs on the operating systems people use... I need a browser that runs on Linux, Irix, and Solaris for my day-to-day browsing. I want one that also runs on Windows/Mac for those special occasions when I use them. What are my options exactly?
That remains to be seen, as the debian packages of 0.9 have not yet been created....
Pretty well. For one thing it runs on the OSes I need a browser on....
On large mailboxes the front end is up to 20 times faster than the old one when scrolling and the like.
Er... What exactly is supposed to be fixed about the site?
Linux is fine with 32M of RAM... as a server. There is no way to comfortably run X in 32M of RAM and expect to run anything else and not swap. Such is life.
There is something to say about page designers whose sense of "how pages were meant to appear" is based on how IE renders those pages.....
That said, they were compiled with gcc 2.91 and -O1, and gcc 2.91 sucks. Moving to 2.95 just now made a significant performance difference.
The bug exists to convince citibank to fix their script. And a user-agent-spoofing panel is going to be in prefs in the near future most likely.
Right. :) The guy who wrote the site is the head of the standards-compliance group for Mozilla...
Huh? If I grab the soda the store does not have it anymore and can't sell it to anybody. that's stealing. If I go to the store and take picture of the soda, or videotape it or magically copy it and drink it then the store still has the same soda.
War is necrophilia.
You, or possibly your machine, are on serious crack. 0.9 is way faster than 0.8.1 on Unix for most people.
BTW 0.9.1 will be a LOT faster and smaller than 0.9. Some major pieces of work have already landed or are about to land:
-- XPCDOM (slightly faster across the board, >2MB space saved on startup)
-- "Paint throttling" (~10% speedup on page loads)
-- HTTP rework (~10% page load speedup, sometimes more)
-- gcc -O2 on Linux (~10% page load speedup)
But only in certain use cases. Such as: not using it. In Windows, just minimize Mozilla, and watch the RAM usage drop from, in my one experiment, 25MB to 5MB. Maximizing it brings it back up to 15MB.
--
Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
Indeed, check out libpr0n.com
http://www.talknerdy.org
I hope Mozilla will have good external program support (mutt, tin, et al.). ... What's a stack?
------
I'm an assembly guru
The Javascript and XML engines still load, which means I'm still waiting for a browser to start. ... What's a stack?
------
I'm an assembly guru
I think there's a RFE for slicing and dicing, but it does make chop suey in five different ways.
-- "So, what's the deal with Auntie Gerschwitz et all?"
The things I've read said that currently the Mac port is the worst of the three main ones in terms of stability/performance (not a dis on Macs, but just the way Mozilla is). However, I'm suprised to hear its that bad.
BTW, the interface is pretty much fixed. You can add and remove some of the buttons, but if you want real change get new themes. New themes are available thru the view, apply themes, get new themes menu (which takes you to x.themes.org's theme site). The Lopburi flat theme is great, if the guy ever gets around to removing the text labels from the buttons.
There should be a nice performance gain when they move to gcc 2.95.3 and start using -O2 to optimize as well.
.9 release.
See http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=53486 for details.
The only reason this hasn't happened yet is they didn't want to introduce potential compiler and optimization issues right before the
Finally, there's no reason to keep using Netscape 4.7x
Hopefully this means it's DNS problems have been fixed. A bug that at least existed 3 days ago was that certain web sites could not load because Mozilla couldn't resolve an IP from the name. While every other network application installed on my machine could.
If you want a version of Mozilla which was rushed out the door, use Netscape 6.0. If you feel masochistic, that is.
--
Win dain a lotica, en vai tu ri silota
It's in the latest nightlies and will be in 0.9.1
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I believe that the reason you feel the menus are are so slow on mozilla is not actually do to mozilla's design be rather how linux handles thread context switching.... try reading the thread around my post on it in a separate discussion. I noticed mozilla menus felt much better after this change.. just as fast if not faster than netscape.
Ian
It has the following
* slicing
* dicing
* an XML term you'll never use
* a 100% cross platform XML GUI, which would be a cool development tool if there was any interest in the browser part of the equation, which still doesn't work
However, it lacks the following features:
* A responsive GUI. I don't care of its runs faster with a different timeslicing value, other apps are responsive without tuning my kernel.
* The ability to save web pages intact. IE has this. Opera has this. Konq will hopefully get it soon.
* Stability, in any nightly or milestone or beta build I have ever tried
Wake up people. Mozilla is a text book case of how NOT to manage an Open Source project. Konq and Opera have a very bright future, as does gecko, sans all the XMS stuff that's been holding up the project forever.
I'm hoping my perpetual lack stable mozilla, across multiple machines, OSs, and stable / nighly / beta builds, is some bizzarre coincidence. I'd like to find out. Could you do the following:
1. Click a menu item. Eg, 'Tasks'
2. Hit the left arrow ten times
Doe the web browser fail to provide any response whatsoever for you too?
Mike
* You compare it to other browsers in your advocacy, so we have the right to respond
,evaluating Mozilla in a negative way (if this is how you truly feel) helps Open Source by eliminating wasted effort into what seems a black hole of `wouldn't it be cool if' technologies. It also allows OSS to avoid the pitfalls of this project - ie, trying to design pixel for pixel perfect XML based cross platform GUIs for *all* applications before the web browser that's at the center of the project has been finished.
* Open Source software should be held up to the same quality standards as closed source software. They way it can improve.
* It replaced something that was being actively maintained and improved, and after 2 years has not seen a major release.
* Netscape users pay for the browser with their eyeballs and the chance that the qality of the clients will make them pay for Netscape servers. Currently that is not the case.
* AOL users (who pay for their browsers directly via sibscriptions) might end up having a modified version of this as their web browser. Their money pays Netscape engineers to work on Mozilla.
Even if you just submit bug reports, it helps greatly.
Basically
I'm posting this from Mozilla 0.9. There's no `up button' at the top of this entry form. I can't save this page and keep it intact. The file -> open dialog box displays my files as being in 1970,and takes three seconds to leave my screen when I click `cancel'.
he packagers WANT to change the directory layout - it provides additional support for them.
Bullshit conspiracy theory. The distro's want to chaneg the directory stucture for logic and consistently - ie, to meet the File Heirarchy System (which is used on Linux and Open Source BSD Unix-like OS)s.
Qmail might be great according to some people. Qmail might have source available. Like Windows in both respects. Neither conforms to the Open Soure Definition. The only distribution that includes Qmail packages is Debian, which applies a giant diff as a hack to get around the licensing issue.
I have to ensure the user has a copy of djbdns installed just so that I can make use of a small part of the program.
I'm not sure about that part, but you do have to make sure the user has installed DJBDNSd, in a way that is different than every other piece of software instlled on their system and which is in violation of the Linux Standards Base.
But he who writes the software gets to choose the license,
Agreed 100%
DJB makes things as free as his own sense of what is right in software allows.
Fine. The problem people have with Qmail is that many users claim that is Open Source, when it is not.
Ditto. This happens with *every* browser, on *every* platform, on *every* machine, until the cookie gets installed.
Anyone else? Are any of the Slashcode guys aware of this?
If I was in bugzilla, this one would be labelled 'WORKSFORME'
Basically, using 0.9 on a Athlon 900 w/ 128Mb, this takes an extraordinary amount of time, and doesn't respond at all if I tap the keys fast enough (ie, at my regular speed)until I stop. In the mentime, the mouse cursor sort of twiches as it, bizzarrely, changes my mouse cursor.
If I hold it down, its much worse.
Dude, Edit->Preferences->Appearance->
and I quote:
When Mozilla starts up, open
_ Navigator
_ Composer
X Mozilla Mail
end quote.
--
python -c "x='python -c %sx=%s; print x%%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))%s'; print x%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))"
Try Galeon for Linux - it's based off of mozilla and does tabbing.
The login thing with knoq si the only thing that stops me from using it 100% of the time right now. Doesn't only happen with ebay, slashdot k5 and a bunch of others mess up too. Can't figure it out for the life of me.
So when some company comes along and grabs linux, makes a bunch of proprietary extensions, and sells it for a bunch of money without releasing the source, what then? That's "just" copyright infringement. What goes around comes around, and most linux-users have been stealing software (eg NT) for a long time, right?
Remember, the copyright laws allow the GPL to exist just as much as they allow proprietary software to exist.
---
Welllllllll if you don't want graphics. (it can't render correctly transperancey in either .gif or .png files) Don't feel the need to use PHP or CSS. Avoid Java and Javascript.... it works pretty well. I'd say in a year or two they could have a browser as good as Netscape 1.0 maybe even IE 3.0 I'm sorry but I'm sticking with Konqueror.... it works. AND it fits on a 20 gig drive *grin*.
I'm sorry, I'm to tired to be witty at the moment so this message will have to do.
Should I wait or uninstall old v0.8 and then install 0.9? Sorry if this sounds like a dumb question (Linux newbie). Thanks! :)
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
Can someone please repost how to do this? I think it was posted in discussion of an earlier release, but I can't find it. I think it's a line in prefs.js
--
"that's not encryption - it's a new perl script that I'm working on..." - from some Matrix parody
Well, the biggest one is to prevent stupid sites from refusing to serve you just because you're not using browser X. They're almost always wrong. I'll take my chances, thank you, I don't need you playing Mommy.
If you're paranoid, there are certain browser-specific bugs that a malicious website can take advantage of if they know your exact version. Better to keep them guessing. (You have cleaned out your /etc/issue file so it doesn't say exactly what version of what OS you're running... right?! If you do, you might as well as change it to "PORTSCAN ME NOW, WORLD!")
And, it's always a good thing to throw some entropy into to some marketroid's demographics.
Plus, I hope I give some admins a good laugh now and then. If you ever see this in your server logs, you'll know it's me:
Mozilla/6.666 (Atari 2600)
I like the images that this conjures.
I can explanate how to administrate your network. You must configurate and segmentate it, so it can computate.
whattafuck are you using for a command line? Howabout just sticking to cd 'mozilla dir';./mozilla or ./run-mozilla.sh. Hasn't crashed not once.. Not even the latest version..
p.s. try memtest..
What are you using, a 286? Jeez, my dns servers don't even resolve "slashdot.org" that quickly.
Try djbdns on your local box. The answer to the broken bloated security risk that is BIND. Install it and never think about your DNS again. If you are not a DNS box, install it anyway to resolve local queries only.
DJBDNS
Hmm. Unlikely at best. But the fact is that this browser is very stable (java has not crashed my browser since a nightly DL'd a week ago) It's quite fast on a 450 PII with 128MB of ram, and the rendering engine rocks my world. Finally, there's no reason to keep using Netscape 4.7x
Konq under linux has mozilla beat no question for speed and font handling.
I am seeing about a 10 MByte difference in RAM for the process (explaining the loading time difference).
Konq is a GREAT example of the power of open source. Mozilla is a GREAT example how maintaining a cross-platform application can slow development to a crawl. Konq seems to have been written in half the time, and yet people who have honestly given both a try recently are quite fond of konq. (Abiword is another example of how cross-platform development can make open source move as fast as Microsoft). To add to that, my perception is that about 1/10th the programming time was placed into konqueror (of course, konqueror doesn't come with a free xmlterm...)
License smicense. Bernstein is quite a good programmer. His license basically says you can use it, but you cannot distribute changes to it. You can freely distribute binaries AS LONG AS the binary dist make the installation EXACTLY the way the tarball build would do it. It is definitely free as in free beer.
If you use BIND, every few months you need to upgrade to avoid an exploit. BIND is responsible for more remote root exploits over the last 10 years than almost any other piece of software. The configuration is a total mess. If you use sendmail, the configuration is a mess, and it used to be the case that there was a remote root exploit of the month.
Now, if you use djbdns, it builds trivially. It is easy to set up. It is 100% secure. You have the source, and you can freely modify it FOR YOUR OWN NEEDS. The same is true of qmail. You can even send your changes back to Bernstein - he may incorporate them. He is NOT making $$ off the programs. His rationale for not allowing distributions of modification (I think) is that he is totally anal about details for security, and wants to oversee ANY distribution of his source.
So don't start barking about licensing issues unless you were one of the people browsing the web with lynx instead of netscape when lynx was the only opeen source option. Bernstein's code is very good software. And secure. And fast.
1. You will never see qmail included as the default MTA in any free OS. Whoever is doing the packaging/migration into the distribution is going to want to make patches at some point or perhaps change the directory layout. Not to mention that it interferes with certain goals of some projects to provide completely free as in speech software.
DJB absolutely does not want any changes made to the directory structure. That is the principal reason he gives for being so anal about distribution. The packagers WANT to change the directory layout - it provides additional support for them. Having a package install in exactly the same place everywhere makes it easy to admin everywhere.
2. I can't use his libraries for my own projects. One point that he raises on his web page is that he's got a much more efficient dns resolver than the one that ships in BIND. Great, he gets to use that in qmail and his programs, but if I want to use it, I have to ensure the user has a copy of djbdns installed just so that I can make use of a small part of the program. Is linking against his libraries even allowed under his license?
Sure it is. You can link against any software on your machine. He states quite explicitly "So I promise I won't sue you for copyright violation for downloading documents from my server. " You should also read his statements that you own the copy of the software you download, and read
http://cr.yp.to/softwarelaw.html
The other thing that really peaves me is that he ships what I consider incomplete versions. djbdns does not include installation instructions or man pages in the tarball (the latest from his webpage). Instead, he expects you to read them off his website.
The rationale is that there are frequency upgrades to documentation, and the website will always be up to date.
OK. Bernstein is a little quirky. It often comes with being an academic. However, he has done a lot for free software even in just considering his cryptography court battle. And he has written a lot of software as free as QT 1.0 if not free-er
http://cr.yp.to/software.html
In a perfect world, it would be nice if his license loosened up a little. But he who writes the software gets to choose the license, and DJB makes things as free as his own sense of what is right in software allows. If he were to GPL his programs, then all the distributors would alter directory structures. And he thinks that is bad. So he allows unrestricted binary distribution with the exception that the distribution has to occur EXACTLY as the tarball build would make it.
Heck, I run a box at home, and I sleep a little better knowing I am running djbdns and qmail instead of sendmail and BIND. And I find his licensing free enough and rational enough for me.
So get off your soap box, I value freedom more than the security garuntee of 1 man who can write decent applications, but has no sense of freedom. And I've used that word alot, More than I like to, but price is not the issue, Thats not what the GPL is all about. If DJB would put his stuff under the GPL, I might just use it. But whatever you do, regardless, Dont get on the soapbox saying sendmail and bind are bad, and we should take away our current freedoms to use it. Theres a reason sendmail handles an estimated 80% of all email traffic. Its good, Its popular, And its free (as in speech)
Sendmail is responsible for the majority of remote root exploits in the 80s. Some of us didn't forget all the pleasant re-installs.
Sendmail is a bloated slow pig of a piece of software. It is so difficult to configure that Allman wrote another program just to write sendmail.conf files - creating the m4 format.
Qmail is small, fast, and easy to configure.
But let us consider whether djb produces free software. Quoting from the Debian Free Software Guidelines.
1) Free distribution - djb passes
2) Provide source - djb passes
3) Derived works - djb passes - he allows anyone to distribute patches - the same as QT 1.0.
4) Allowing distribution of modified source or patches. djb fails. Patches should be distributed separately,
5-9) Discrimination, contamination... djb passes.
So when you say it is not Free Software, and if we consider the Debian sense of free software, the argument is really about allowing patches to be distributed with the source.
And if you go to GNU, and make the same arguments, you find it has ALL of the freedoms associated with free software. GNU lists those freedoms as
1) The freedom to run the program, for any purpose
2) The freedom to study how the program works, and adapt it to your needs. Access to the source code is a precondition for this.
3) The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor
4) The freedom to improve the program, and release your improvements to the public, so that the whole community benefits.
Again, the only potential stopping point is that you may not distribute patches with the source - they must be distributed separately. And if you are going to get on some moral soapbox about distribution of patches separately for someone whose principal concern is preserving directory structure of his software across distributions, maybe you should take a long hard look in the mirror and see who is concerned about freedom. I am MUCH more concerned about licensing issues surrounding QT, where they require you to pay if you incorporate QT in commercial software. DJB software is ALWAYS free as in free beer, and the only way in which it is not Free Software is that patches must be distributely separately.
Besides, you gotta love a programmer who offers his own money for anyone finding a security bug in his program. If Allman offered $500 for each security bug in Sendmail, he would have declared bankruptcy in 1985.
The other advantage Microsoft enjoys in this regard, besides being able to hire 50% of the most highly paid C++ developers in the world, is that whatever path they beat down through the forest of complexity becomes The Standard.
Meanwhile, Mozilla's Shoot for the Moon in terms of cool features, rendering speed, stability, cross platform portability, low memory footprint have produced a Procrustean bed that is taking about as long to implement as you might expect. (And here I though my company held a lock on this kind of development model. Many the local ego has been comforted with a retort of
Absolute conformance to the latest complicated W3C standards just sets the high bar at 32 feet instead of just 28 feet for the Mozilla programmers.
I really admire the great effort that's gone into Mozilla thus far. There are really some impressive designs, ideas and programming in that pile of code. I only hope that their slow steady progress eventually wins out, even after all the spectators get tired and go home.
The cool doodads like Mail/News readers, etc. have been beaten like a dead horse by many previous posters as being too peripheral to the mission of a web browser.
My question is this:
"Provided by the management for your protection."
This will be the best open-source browser, and will win favor in the embedded market. Mozilla will live on -- I, and many others, want something that's done right rather than first.
I have a feeling we'll all be in for a real treat once 1.0 hits the net.
Alright, alright. I have been looking forward for Mozilla 1.0 for a long time, wanting to get rid of Netscape Crashigator 4.x and finally have a weapon to shoot at MS Internet Integrator from my desktop.
Too bad I've been waiting too long.
Listen, I'm big into bashing IE, because I hate internet integration, hate the MS behemoth, and want some competition, just like most others here on the board (yes, we all love Linux, but the majority of us STILL use Windows on AT LEAST one desktop). But Mozilla is REALLY PUSHING its time frame here. Before any flame throwers come around telling me that I'm not patient enough, just try and think about it for a second...
...Slashdot just ran an article a couple articles back about a satire of a company who kept telling investors that it has a kick-ass piece of software that will take the market by storm. Only problem was that they were never able to produce their product. What happened to the company? It kicked the bucket.
Now, granted, Mozilla has kept showing us its improvements, its great abilities, its scarce use of resources, its stablility, etc. But for crying out loud,
PRODUCE THE PRODUCT!!!
Although I'm sure the final product is going to be great,
1) These three years of waiting have caused Microsoft to nearly win out 85% of the browsing market by now.
2) The latency has caused AOL to release "Netscape 6.0" with a beta version of Mozilla and Gecko which is a piece of crap and unstable with all the bogus utilities included in it. Yes, it means nothing to the geek community, but to the real world community (aka business and consumer), it makes Netscape (the name most are familiar with) look like a has-been, while Mozilla (the name no one is familiar with) is not known by anyone.
3) Since this is "open-source" software, that means that there will be no promotion on the product whatsoever, meaning Microsoft will still have the competitive edge by far.
Argue what you want, but the fact of the matter is that the team has taken way too much time striving for perfection. Even though this is open-source, its superiority alone will not take the web (heck, if the superior product always won, we would have never used 3.5" floppy disk drives and Rambus would never have survived this long). Time is an enemy, no matter what kind of software it is. This product needs to get out there now. It needed to get out there two years before now.
No, I own both a copy of Windows and a "license" to use it. Do you see Microsoft giving out free copies of Windows to people who already bought licenses? M$ demands money for both.
You had to before?!
If a corporation is a personhood, is owning stock slavery?
Steal, v. - to take another person's property without right or permission.
Now, since one takes a copy of the original and the author of the original owns the copy, hasn't one just stolen something? Here's a good hint: the answer is three letters long and begins with the letters Y-e-s.
If a corporation is a personhood, is owning stock slavery?
I'm hoping my perpetual lack stable mozilla, across multiple machines, OSs, and stable / nighly / beta builds, is some bizzarre coincidence. I'd like to find out. Could you do the following:
1. Click a menu item. Eg, 'Tasks'
2. Hit the left arrow ten times
Does the web browser fail to provide any response whatsoever for you too?
Hmm. Click 'Tasks'. Menu drops down. Press left 10 times. Menus drop down for each item on the left, cycling round and finishing at Tasks menu again. Click on 'Tools->History'. History page pops up.
If I was in bugzilla, this one would be labelled 'WORKSFORME'.
Current build 2001050521 on Linux - that was one of the last 0.9 branch before the release.
Cheers,
Toby Haynes
Anything I post is strictly my own thoughts and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the opinions of IBM.
I have been using mozilla for almost a year and a half now. (It renders much like IE, so debugging web pages is easy using Moz + Netscape) This release is far and away the best release I have seen. I was very impressed at the speed improvements made to the browser and the JVM as well. I haven't used Konq yet ( I'll try it now that my DSL is back up) but this mozilla is surely going to replace Netscape for me. (That is if the frames navigation bug has been fixed).
It's that good.
_underSCORE
"This is not a company that appears to be bothered by ethical boundaries."
Attorney General Mike Hatch on Microsoft
The ideal solution would be to convince Citibank to change their scripts. An alternate "solution" would be to somehow put an idiot-proof spoofing function into the program. (Special_128_bit_mode, which changes the user agent string to something that's not 100% dishonest, but munged enough to get by most browser detection scripts... The user only activates this "mode" in case of problems with secure sites.)
My intention is certainly not flaimbait, but people like to flame so there's not much that can be done about it...
Why can't Mozilla be more like Opera? Only open source rather than commercial. I don't want a bloated, slow, unstable browser. What I want it basically Opera with a better configuration interface (and better bookmark system which netscape has). Why not cut down the code to the bare essentials and get it right?
I don't want to sound insulting to the developers but after working with the code on several different platforms I can safely say it is nasty stuff. I personally think that it was Netscape's influence that made bad code okay, and rushed integration of bloated, untested code.
While my approach may seem shocking, I think the only way to make mozilla into a decent browser is to start with the base code and get a sourceforge product going. That way it would be the community's desires that would drive the project, not Netscape's.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
Most online banking requires https support for java. This is not included in the standard java distributions for free browsers.
You need JSSE classes which you can download from here, information about getting them to with konqueror is here although personally I found you just need to pub the classes in your javahome/lib/ext/ directory and all works fine.
Your first link is almost a year old, the second link is about NS 4.x, not Mozilla.
Are you on the M$ payroll or something?
A Friend of mine frequented the Mozilla.org newsgroups and IRC channels since was embedding JavaScript into his RPG engine.
One day he mentioned a new image library they were working on, and I swore to god he told me it was called lib pr0n, now he might have been joking (though he isn't really the type), and it might have just been an internal name. But it was funny as hell.
And really, I'm not making this up.
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"and dear god does this website suck now." -- CmdrTaco
I had this problem to in ie on windows 9x. Using kuro5hin is really bad, since everyone gets to moderate. But the problem is non-existent in 2k/NT (Gives you a pretty good idea of what OS M$ uses for testing/development, eh)
It's not that bad of a solution, either, since those OSs are so easy to pirate. Even in the US a lot of people don't bother to pay : )
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"and dear god does this website suck now." -- CmdrTaco
What the hell? I'm not even Korean! (I'm Chinese). I know Americans sometimes have trouble telling Asian people apart, but goddamn.
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"and dear god does this website suck now." -- CmdrTaco
And I doubt RMS would either, if we didn't have opressive copyright laws on the book. the GPL, or copyleft is an attempt to twist the law into something good. If the bad laws were not there to begin with, there wouldn't even be a need.
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"and dear god does this website suck now." -- CmdrTaco
but who decides what is just and what is unjust
I do.
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"and dear god does this website suck now." -- CmdrTaco
Very well, I'm glad to see that we now have three excellent libre software browsers (Konqueror, Galeon, Mozilla), and that they are improving very quickly, but... for the moment I'm still forced to use Netscape 4.* to do online banking (I think it's 128-bit encryption, I'm at Citibank). Even with PSM, even with https support activated... don't ask me why, I'm not an expert at crypto, all I know is that the problem is here.
So, can anyone tell me is this changes with Mozilla 0.9? If not, does anyone have an idea of when we will have a solution for this?
Moz 0.9 is rock solid. The recent nightlies are iffy, but getting there. One thing that's in the nightlies is a much-needed improvement to the "Modern" theme; it's now a much sleeker gray color with cooler looking buttons. :) I have a feeling we'll all be in for a real treat once 1.0 hits the net.
N4st0r, trixx0r h0bb1tz0rz! Th3y st0l3 0ur pr3c10uzz!
Which option is this? I can't see it anywhere in that file...
Guess what browser was used to post this comment?
--
Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
I still use a few computers with Windows (including my main home computer). 2 of the 4 computers I own run Linux (including one small server), and my laptop (old) dual-boots.
Konqueror seems nice, but it's (obviously) not available for win32.
I don't particularly like how Internet Explorer renders pages (seems choppy, jerks while rendering tables and images without prespecified sizes), so I only use it under MacOS. Netscape 6 is far too slow and unstable to be used seriously (yes, I know it's based off of Mozilla, but they really messed with it before releasing it).
So what do I do? I end up using Netscape 4.76 on almost all computers, Linux included. It's reasonably fast, mostly stable (except in win2000 is seems), and actually renders nicely (IMO). I've tried recent milestones of Mozilla (not including this one), and it seems to have a fair amount of potential - but still is kinda slow for a browser (probably 'cause it's not built into the OS =). Also, their development seems to be taking a whole lot longer than applications like Konqueror, but perhaps in the end Mozilla will set the standard for high-quality browsers.
I'm off to try out this milestone to see how it runs, and maybe begin to replace my almost-obsolete Netscape 4.76. Good luck to the Mozilla team.
"The universe seems neither benign nor hostile, merely indifferent." --Carl Sagan
FYI: I used Linux as my primary operating system for about 8 hours a day for 9 months, using Netscape 4.7x the entire time. Yes, it crashed, but only about once a week.
I still use Netscape under Linux EVERY DAY on two different Linux machines, and it crashes no more or less than IE or Konqueror. Also, Netscape under Linux is the only close-to-fully-featured browser that can run on older pentiums (like my laptop) with any sort of usability. It's not perfect, and it does crash on occasion - but it's still very usuable. I can't speak for other ports of Netscape, only Linux and Windows.
Perhaps my experience on 4 separate Linux boxes is unique, but besides clunky widgets, it's a very viable browser for me.
Yes, even with Konqueror Netscape is still useful? Why? Older computers can't run KDE 2.1 worth a crap (trust me, it's horrible), and many of us prefer the GNOME/GTK environment and would rather not load up the whole host of kde libraries just for konqueror. I would agree that someone running KDE 2.x has no reason to use Netscape, but even my short experience with Konqueror produced more crashes than I normally receive with Netscape.
Perhaps you should consider that having a different experience with a program under an OS is different than having little experience.
"The universe seems neither benign nor hostile, merely indifferent." --Carl Sagan
My laptop is a P150 with 48 megs of RAM. I run WindowMaker (not with GNOME, not with KDE). KDE 2.1.1 was so slow it was unusable - thought Konqueror does load faster under KDE than Netscape does (obviously because the libraries and widgets are already loaded, kinda like IE in Windows). GNOME (1.2) runs at a decent pace, but it still seems lagging (when I'm used to the responsiveness of a 700 Mhz computer w/ 196 megs of RAM as my primary). WindowMaker, by contrast, runs very, very quickly and responsively.
I only use a few non-console programs under X on my laptop, so WindowMaker is ideal. Basically XEmacs, Netscape, and the Gimp are the three biggest X applications I run.
Like I've said before - my experiences may be different that the average user. If I was running Linux on my primary desktop (I'm not because of a long list of necessary proprietary programs), I would be running KDE 2 with Konqueror as my primary browser, in all likelihood. But, I look to Linux as a primary development platform (with XEmacs), and my server operating system (I own one Linux server and maintain 4 Cobalts).
I just tried Mozilla 0.9 under Windows on my 700 Mhz machine - it's quickly approaching the point at which I can switch from my standby Netscape 4.76.
From reading the other posts, though, it would appear that my good experience with Netscape in both Linux and Windows is a rare thing to encounter. The only stability problem I've had with Netscape 4.7x is under Windows 2000, but Win9x works great (1 crash per week on average, like I said).
"The universe seems neither benign nor hostile, merely indifferent." --Carl Sagan
but does it slice and dice? I won't get it unless it slices and dices.
The anti-salmon
whoa..those percentages are way wrong. You are forgetting the percentage of goatse.cx posts, the percentage of spork posts and the percentage of DIE BILL GATES DIE!! posts. Just to screw up your percentages even more, I will add a DIE BILL GATES DIE!! post right here for your inconveniance.
DIE BILL GATES DIE!!!
The anti-salmon
I dunno why, but this story reminded me of a question i had for the slashdot community. I was looking through some server logs the other day, and it has logs of different browsers and whatnot that are used to access our site. One of the browsers showed up as "Netscape 8." anyone know what's up with that?
The anti-salmon
Actually, Konqueror has turned out to be a huge surprise. It runs fast, displays a majority of pages well, and boots quickly. There are a few times where I have to whip out Netscape (most notably at eBay, which sometimes seems to forget I've logged on), but other than that Konqueror has become my browser of choice on the Linux side. IE 5.0 is unabashedly for my Windows side.
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
Actually, I remember doing a problem recently in OS class that said twice as much memory only yielded a 25% gain, on average. I don't know if it would work in reverse (25% loss)?
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
Konqueror is faster than Netscape on mine.
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
Actually, it's an OS independent study. And some of us like to hear the "shit" they teach us before we make opinions on the subject.
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
Just installed in on MacOS 8.6. Moz has managed to crash within 5 minutes each time I've opened it (4 times so far). I'm posting this from Moz .9 tho.
I had to set some of the options and now it seems okay (for now at least).
But I really like it! Better interface (still some weird issues, like size of objects, 1 pixel misalignment, etc. I'm also getting odd lines around some images, and other graphical glitches.
I would like the ability to make the back buttons, etc smaller... didn't see a prefs option for that.
But, wow is it fast! Nice work.
Hmm. Unlikely at best. But the fact is that this browser is very stable (java has not crashed my browser since a nightly DL'd a week ago) It's quite fast on a 450 PII with 128MB of ram, and the rendering engine rocks my world. Finally, there's no reason to keep using Netscape 4.7x
Regards,
Hoarycripple
--
the new image rendering library was known as libpr0n to all of the developers.
Keeping
It must leave all sorts of pre-cached data lying around when it's active, and tosses it when minimized. Pretty cool.
--
"Open source is good." - Steve Jobs
"Open source is evil." - Microsoft
I just tried out the Linux version on my Glibc 2.2.3/Kernel 2.4.4 system, and the performance still does not hold a candle to Netscape 4.77.
Navigating the menus still feels like a java app with large delays in action.Opening new windows and bringing up preferences is still slow.
Until I get *instantaneous* response like NS 4.77, I will never switch to mozilla.
I am a new user of Linux, at least as a desktop/workstation (pentiun II 350 + 384MB RAM). I have mandrake 8.0, so I have pretty much the bleeding edge browsers of linux installed. Konqueror is good but not as good as IE, and I have been getting annoyed with the display and the fonts, etc. I is definitely close to being good enough but not yet. Mozilla 0.81 (also galleon, nautilus, etc) is also installed and unfortunately it is too slow and also buggy, at least people didn't test their webpages on mozilla. It just doesn't feel right for day to day frequent usage. After fighting for a while what to use, I remembered opera. I have been using opera for a long while on windows and I use it 50% of the time and I use IE for the other 50%. Opera has been missing some javascript functionality but 99% of the time it is fine. It has a great gui which is very customizable.
I installed the linux version and I love it. It is consistant with the windows version and it is very fast to start on linux. After starting opera, all of us know how fast it is to render pages.
How do you define stealing? Do I have to physically remove property from your possession? Well, how do you define property? I've got a substantial amount of money in different accounts, none of which corresponds to actual, tangible property. I still own it.
Property is based on the right to exclude. I own a house, and a yard. Why are they mine? Because I decide who cannot stand on it. (Well, more or less - the meter reader guy still has to walk on my grass, but you get the idea.) I also decide who can and cannot build on it. I have exclusive rights. The more exclusive rights I have, the more it is considered my property.
Under this definition of property (which is the same definition used in U.S. law), stealing is defined as an action that removes the rights or ability of someone to exclude. If someone "steals" my money that I have in one of my accounts, I don't actually lose physical possession of it, do I? I just lose the ability to exclude others from using it.
IP law gives authors and inventors exclusive rights (read: "rights to exclude") over their works. If I remove from someone the ability or right to exclude, I have stolen. I have removed their property (or a portion of it) from them.
In short, here's the line of reasoning:
1) Property is defined by the rights of someone to exclude;
2) Intangible things may be property;
3) IP law makes ideas into property by granting exclusive rights over them to the author;
4) "Stealing" is removing the rights or ability to exclude;
5) IP infringement removes some of the rights and/or abilities of the author to exclude;
6) Therefore, IP infringement is stealing.
Morally, you can see it however you wish. Legally, this is reality. You do have to give a definition of the word "stealing" before you can give good reasons not to use it. Your stance insults people who have been victims of IP theft - and that's not just huge corporations.
I got my Linux laptop at System76.
Now, i find it irresistible to reply on this... I use OmniWeb on my PowerBook. It's a very standards compliant browser, hence same problems as with Opera. However, I can view most pages just fine, and flash, quicktime etc. plugins work 100%. Now you might find it annoying, but Omni is a 100% OpenStep developer, therefore you don't get the chance to run this neat piece of s/w unless you run MacOS X or NeXTstep :-)
of course, when i boot to linux, i prefer mozilla. it's not too slow for my machine, and it's very close to displaying correctly every web page out there.
still running a x86? dinosaurs do exist!
On the other hand some developers are real open source developers, meaning they do it in their spare time. For those (like me), the only and best reward is to watch the software evolve and become better and better.
I'm not sure about the CD's etc, but I would say yes, at first sight.
Fabian.
...Besides Netscape/Mozilla?
I should switch. I'm running explorer pretty much by default, and it won't even let me moderate! All my dropdown boxes blur together, the windows begin to freeze, and the little girl's head begins to spin. (this also happens when I get too many form elements in *total* windows. Sigh.)
It's no wonder that any other browser has a hard time catching up with the current W3C standards. The needs of web users would be better served with a much simpler set of standards. And previous multimedia and hypertext systems have shown that much simpler systems are possible.
The 0.9 branch is known as the performance branch (though more performance stuff is still being checked in) and to that end a lot of stuff has been rewritten for speed: For example, Mail/News now uses Outliner which has at least doubled the speed which I use to have using Mozilla Mail/News. Then there's PSM 2.0 which was totally rewritten from the ground up so that SSL pages are now blazzingly fast. ImageLib (LibPr0n) also was completely rewritten so that it renders images 2x as fast as it did before. This is not to say that this is the end of the performance fixes. In addition to the ones mentioned above, the latest nightlies have a very big speed increase loading pages (which was checked in right after 0.9 branched). In addition were working on getting the startup time down, with among other things the ability on (Winblows computers) to load Mozilla at Startup just as you would IE. bug 76004, (I know some people won't like this idea but some will, and you will have a choice) If you want to help out you can join the channel #mozillazine on irc.mozilla.org. We need Linux coders to help optimize the speed on Linux so that its just as fast as on Windows, were getting there but were still a bit behind. A while ago I stopped b*tching about Mozilla and its slowness and decided to get involved and I have found you can make a lot of difference if you do. Even if you can't devote lots of time to it, even filing bugs, helping sort and duplicate bugs or creating testcases for those bugs is sorely needed. If you have any questions feel free to email me or check out Mozillazine.