Slashdot Mirror
Is Carpal Tunnel Syndrome A Hoax?
ZaMoose writes: "It seems as if all of the hoopla re: repetitive stress injury (RSI) in the high-tech sector might just be group hysteria. Canadian officials are quoted in the
following article as saying that many RSI cases have mysteriously 'gone away.'" Hard to deny that extended typing sessions can have painful after-effects, but at issue here is how serious (and permanent) those effects can be. I know plenty of painful typists complete with wrist guards and wincing who probably won't agree that their symptoms aren't genuine.
I had a start of carpal tunnel about five years ago from working way too hard and relaxing only by playing a musical instrument that also contributed to the problem. I've slowed down, and the problems have cleared up. But it was real.
OTOH, this slashdot story is a hoax.
Only in one format: the $99 combination wireless keyboard and wireless mouse. I have it. It rox.
Hmm. I thought that was a little weird myself. If you somehow interface those prostetics/cybernetics to the nervous system well enough to type like he did, why not stick a USB port or a little wireless transmitter in your hand and skip the finger-splitting step altogether. Those fingers have to be murder to maintain, a simple direct connection seems faster and more efficent.
Then again, it did look cool.
Down that path lies madness. On the other hand, the road to hell is paved with melting snowballs.
I read the internet for the articles.
It was very prevalent in the 80's but since people became aware of it and took precautions you might say it never existed unless you lived in the 80's and saw it in person. Not many slashdotters probably remember the 80's.
Even more interesting is the fact that both JWZ and RMS are (or were) both huge Emacs hackers (ever hear of Lucid Emacs).
Now, I am a huge Emacs fan, but I have seen way too many Emacs users with serious RSI problems to think that this isn't more than coincidental. So next time you need to hit some obscure key chord to get emacs to do something cool remember to take it easy, and don't put your fingers in an uncomfortable position.
I've never met anyone who had RSI of any sort who wasn't under a whole lot of stress. I suspect that people who type a lot are more likely to manifest their stress as CTS than people who don't do much with their hands. Media exposure probably also increases the chance, as the article suggests.
Whether the physical damage is real or not is questionable. Stress could either be manifested as pain or as susceptability to damage, and it could vary among people.
All in all, I think RSI is better for you than heart disease or chronic fatigue or whatever people will get when they stop getting RSI.
Agreed. I used to do a lot of typing back many years ago on the Digital Equipment LK201 keyboard.
;)
This was the standard keyboard that came with VT340 terminals, DECstations, etc. Wow was it ever a bad keyboard, very mushy plus you had to press hard to register keys. So a days worth of typing was a lot of work.
My wrists were incredibly screwed up after about two years of that. About that time I got a new machine, switched keyboards, started doing wrist excercises, etc.
Now my pains have gone away.
Actually if I recall DEC was sued over that keyboard, but convinced the judge that the pains were imaginary.
It was after using such a keyboard for two weeks that I first began to experience symptoms of CTS. I love 'em too, but I can't use them.
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-- Slashdot sucks.
It's the posture. The problem comes in when you have a hyper-extension of the wrist, which can be caused by a lot of different things. One especially common one is a seat that's too low. Another is people who slouch before their keyboards, placing their palms and wrists *below* the level of the enter key. Ever see a piano teacher? The wrists must be held straight.
The keyboard and mouse wrist rests *work* -- not because they pad the joint, but because they make it impossible to hyperextend your wrist.
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-- Slashdot sucks.
Others have already noted the biases of the interviewee and publisher, but what I want to point out is the disingenuous use of CTS.
Dr. Shorter is quite correct to note that "most [RSI sufferers] didn't have carpal tunnel syndrome", but a right bastard to then claim "hysteria" as the culprit.
I do not know Dr. Shorter, but I do know this - most RSI sufferers do not suffer from CTS, but plain old tendonitis or neuritis. Those of you complaining about elbow, shoulder, and wrist pain in the right arm due to mousing are probably (I am not a physician, this is not a medical opinion) suffering from ulnar neuritis (an inflamation of the sheath containing the ulnar nerve - this is the nerve that runs along the outside of your arm, terminating in the ring finger and pinky). This has nothing to do with CTS, other than also being a repetitive strain injury.
I do agree with the doctor that CTS as an injury is far less common than is commonly believed, and that most people who think they have CTS probably have something else. I don't belive they are hysterical.
And I think the recent moves against OSHA standards for preventing RSI are driven more by the meatpacking industry wishing to continue to do business as usual (working low-wage meat cutters until they're crippled, then discarding them) than by the white-collar sector, but that's a different rant entirely.
-Isaac
I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice. For Entertainment Purposes Only.
Yeah, that's what one of my former coworkers, a native of Lithuania, thought too. This guy had survived the Red Army and was (is) one of the hardest workers I have ever met in my life.
Then one day, after two weeks of 16 hour/day hacking, his wrists froze up and his wife found him lying on the floor screaming in pain.
Good thing he had that other American excess, health insurance. 6 months of surgery and physical therapy and he can pretty much work 4-5 hours a day now.
It's a strange kind of malingering that strikes the people who are driven to work the most, hardest.
sPh
Hmm - - BS...
I had an employee who had suffered from Carpal tunnel syndrome before he was an employee of mine. Sorta funny that he had to have surgery to get some relief??????
I think someone in Canada has been having more than an extra brewski....
Have you compiled your kernel today??
It seems they've proved that malingering is possible. I guess that means that the disease doesn't exist.
-- Truth goes out the door when rumor comes innuendo. -- Groucho Marx
The wristwrest may be helping to cause some of your problems. The best typing position for your hands is not with your wrists resting on anything, but suspended over the keyboard.
The same goes for mousing around -- no wrist rest for that either. My RSI problems come more from the mouse than the keyboard, which is why I switched to the Kensington TurboMouse trackballs.
Potato chips are a by-yourself food.
I've thought the same thing. I will never trade my IBM Keyboard of Might for some wussie ergonomic POS. I've been hacking for upwards of 12 years, and I haven't had any major problems.
But on the other hand, I really don't type for long stretches. I'll write a function or two, then I'll compile, then I'll test. If it breaks, I'll have to sift through the debugging information. Then maybe I'll type another line or two to try to fix it. Not a whole lot of continuous typing is going on.
Basically, I would expect that this whole problem would be much more pronounced among typists, secretaries, admins, etc. who actually type for hours without stopping.
The enemies of Democracy are
Take the source for what it's worth. Isn't the newspaper source a decidedly conservative press with an axe to grind against the injured, as well as every other group it sees as a threat?
After all in this country, the US, we have an adminstration that makes pronouncements on the safe level of arsenic in the water not based on safety but on the cost to do it. And it threw out the Americans with Disabilities Act as it applies to municipal facilities solely on the cost to implement? So maybe it's the same thing here - politicized science that lobbyists trot out as truth?
Next thing you know they'll dicount mental illness because it's only in your mind.
...is that the computer programming boom has fallen somewhat, so those who have only heard of HTML can no longer get work, so less people are doing less work at the computer causing less RSI?
Eeh? (Thrown in for the Canadians.)
I would like to say that RSI is definitely real, and that it definitely can be made better with heat treatments, better ergonomics, etc. Switching to an ergonomic keyboard has done wonders for my hands, but they still hurt every now and then. Hand massages seem to help, too.
Consider the facts:
1) People tend to get them at the same time. This is probably because of some kind of "mass hysteria".
2) All of the people striken with colds have had their colds "go away".
If carpal tunnel is a hoax, then so is the common cold.
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
So if the folks afflicted with carpel tunnel syndrome didn't get it from using their PCs at work, how did they get it? I suppose they got that numbness from the vibrations transmitted through the steering column on their way to and from work. Yah, that's it. Blame on poor roads and not the crappy furniture that corporations buy that (after how many years of people using PCs at work?) doesn't allow computer users to sit with a comfortable posture.
If these injuries are declining, one's gotta wonder if they've been disappearing since the use of trackballs became more widespread? I've been using one at home for several years and it seemed to help a great deal. (I still have to use a mouse at work on some systems and heavy use still is a problem.) The good thing about many RSIs, however, is that they do get better. My finger joints seemed to recover when I was on vacation and the most strenuous thing I did with my fingers was trip the shutter on my camera.
All in all, though, something about this report smells bad. As Deep Throat said: ``Follow the money.'' The article didn't mention just who funded the UofT study and I doubt the regents/board paid for it out of the goodness of their hearts. I know of too many people who have wrist, finger, and back problems that cannot be blamed on anything else but their heavy use of computers at work. Far too many people to attribute it to ``hysteria''. (What an insult that one was.) Companies that employ large numbers of computer users would certainly have an interest in seeing RSIs labeled as mass hysteria. American corporations were quite successful in killing off legislation that would have made workplaces more ergonomic. How many policies were cancelled in the past few months that would have benefitted either people or the environment because it was too expensive for corporations? (My eyes fill with tears just thinking about the horrendous expenses corporations would have to bear -- sniff) Surely some major insurance companies could've banded together to fund this study; they'd just love to claim that RSIs don't exist so they could avoid paying the medical bills of corporate employees.
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CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
While I agree with you that psychosomatic illnesses are just as real as physiological illnesses in that the suffering is no less acute, the notion the repetetive strain injuries are psychosomatic is, to put it bluntly, a crock of shit. I know several people who are suffering from this and, indeed, suffered a little from it myself before taking longer keyboard breaks and mixing up my duties enough to take myself away from the computer every so often.
Repetetive strain injuries are real and, if not taken seriously and treated properly, can become absolutely debilitating. Imagine not being able to grip a tennis ball or hold a pencil. I've seen people in that bad of shape, with swollen writsts, etc. and it was not in their heads. In one case I know for a fact that his physician agreed, pointedly ordering him away from the keyboard for several months.
This article (while not as extreme as the slashdot headline leads one to believe, nevertheless) reminds me of the idiots who were telling Gulf War who were dying from Mustard Gas exposure in Iraq (the ingredients of which were sold to the Iraqis by US companies, with US government approval, from 1985-1989) that their symptoms (passing blood, exhaustion, etc.) were psychosomatic, a result of stress.
It makes me seriously wonder if the author isn't a shill for insurance companies wanting to get out of covering the medical bills of tens of thousands of programmers now entering their thirties and beginning to reap the physical consiquences of those 80 hour weeks of repetetive typing. It certainly would not be the first time in our (very recent) history something like this has happened.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
And, as anywone familiar with repetetive stress injuries knows, if you treat it early on (and one aspect of treatment is to STOP THE REPETETIVE ACTIONS CAUSING THE INJURY) yes, the injury will heal itself. But, if it is not treated early, the injury can become very permanent. This should not be a surprise, many physical injuries share similar traits (treat it early and it heals, ignore it and the damage worsens, ultimately becoming irreversable(.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
[Business] Posted by CptBurrito on Monday, June 11, @04:20PM
from the mysterious-stories-from-ether dept.
TheSource writes: "It seems as if all of the hoopla re: economic forces in the background at Slashdot might not just be group hysteria. Andover.Net officials are quoted in the following article as saying that many Slashdot story sources have mysteriously 'gone away.'" Hard to deny that stories of dubious origin can have painful after-effects, but at issue here is how serious (and permanent) those effects can be. I know plenty of sickened readers complete with stomach pains and wincing who probably won't agree that their symptoms aren't genuine.
( Read More... | 28 of 115 comments )
Umm, aspirin has similar anti-inflammatory properties to ibuprofen (Advil). I believe that the painkiller in Aleve is also an anti-inflammatory.
Acetominaphine (Tylenol) is not a good anti-inflammatory, but it used for most pain relievers because of its perceived safety. I say perceived because acetominaphine does not have any warning signs (like aspirin's ringing in the ears) before fatal overdose, and a fatal overdose will flat out kill your liver. A dead liver is a recipe for a nasty, unpleasant death.
As for RSI being 'all in your head', I'm willing to believe it, though the article presents insufficient evidence. IMNSHO, that in no way diminishes the seriousness of the disease, or makes the pain less 'real' (since pain is a perception). It just suggests a different method of treatment. We, here in America have a strange disdain of suffering caused by some non-physical source.
Need a Python, C++, Unix, Linux develop
No, it's not the keyboard. The misbegotten microsoft keyboard doesn't work any better than any other keyboard (so far as I can tell.)
I'd argue that that the keyboard makes a huge difference, athough I'd agree that the Microsoft ergo doesn't help the real problem one bit.
I find that if I'm typing on the average "smooshy" feeling keyboard that's almost universal now days for even a couple hours, I start to feel wrist tension. However, I can use a keyboard with positive key action almost indefinately without special pads or keyboard trays or unnatural postures.
If you have problems with your wrists, I highly recommend the IBM "clickity" Model M keyboard which shipped with AT and PS/2 systems, if only because it can be found fairly easily at flea markets and thrift stores or ebay for only a couple bucks. To minimize mouse usage, I'm currently using a "TrackPoint II" model, which is standard Model M with the thinkpad nipple on it. Also, learn as many keyboard shortcuts as possible to keep your wrists in the same location.
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Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
It's probably worth noting that RSI's are not confined to "tech" industries either. My wife's father had surgery to both his wrists for carpal tunnel somewhere over a decade ago. His job? Stocker at a grocery store. I don't think he would have put himself through the pain of that surgery for a "hoax" either.
7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
As someone who suffers from RSI, i can definately tell you that you are selling yourself short with Aspirin. Ibuprophin is a much better choice. Not only does it relieve pain, but it also reduces swelling, a major helper for carpel tunnel pain. As always consult a doctor, but i take 600mg twice a day, and you can take 600mg up to every 4 hours i believe without ill effects.
Tis better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open
Tis better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt --Abraham Lincoln
Carpal tunnel syndrome isn't a disease of the rich. In fact, it took some time before it was connected with keyboard use. The first instances of diagnosis were of manual laborers, especially farm workers and most particularly slaughterhouse employees. In the US, meat processing is pretty industrialized, and it takes mass numbers of minimum-wage employees chopping away at carcasses to produce the cuts of meat we enjoy in our supermarkets. The production increases have led to people banging a cleaver through meat against a cutting board five times a minute, for eight hours a day.
Now, granted, Lithuania may have problems just getting enough jobs for people, or building democracy, but don't imagine it's a class thing or limited to developed countries.
The cynic in me will agree that RSI did not become a "big" problem that people in the US cared about, until higher-paid office workers began to be diagnosed.
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lake effect weblog
lake effect weblog
{Network engineer in Chicago--looking for work!}
I'm a fan of the Kinesis contoured models, which put all the heavy use keys under your thumbs (Ctrl, Alt, Enter, Space, BS, Delete). Also all keys are programmable, so you can fix any quirk about it that you don't like (e.g. the Caps Lock next to the A can be made to do something useful).
The Maltrox (sp?) looks interesting too. Possibly better, though more expensive (and the Kinesis ain't cheap to begin with).
By the way, I've been a heavy keyboard user for decades now, and I didn't feel any ill effects for the first 10 years or so of typing. So you slash kiddies who're feeling smug because your fingers are never sore, remember that you're just getting started...
Computer Users Not at Higher Risk of Carpal Tunnel
... Because the syndrome is a common condition in the population -- one in 10 will develop symptoms -- some computer users will develop it, Stevens said."
"'We had expected to find a much higher incidence of carpal tunnel syndrome in the heavy computer users in our study because it is a commonly held belief that computer use causes carpal tunnel syndrome,' said J. Clarke Stevens, a neurologist at the prestigious clinic.... 'The findings are contrary to popular thought but nobody has studied the problem carefully,' Stevens said. 'I'd like computer users to know that prolonged use of a computer does not seem to lead to carpal tunnel.'
(Edward Shorter -- upon whom another poster cast aspersions, perhaps rightly, perhaps not -- is not mentioned in this story. Stevens, quoted above, is the researcher mentioned in the National Post article.)
Stupid job ads, weird spam, occasional insight at
I suffered from RSI for a while, mainly in my right wrist (not being a touch typist, my typing "style" uses my right hand more than my left). It got so bad at one point, I couldn't hold my mouse. A wrist brace, heat treatments and anti-inflamatories helped, but six years later I still get a twinge when I've been typing too much.
I think the article contains its own answer to the question it raised: RSI has significantly declined in computer-related injuries mainly because of heightened awareness of ergonomics. I know in my own case, I can go a lot longer because my desk is the right height, my keyboard is at a comfortable height and angle, I chair is more comfortable and holds me at a better posture....
This whole debate reminds me of Y2K. Everyone perceived it as a huge fiasco in the making (which it was, in 1998), and dumped $millions into fixes, redesigns and contingency plans. Then, when the actual fallout was insignificant, rather than congratulating IT for averting a disaster, people asked "So what was the fuss all about? Why did we spend so much preparing for nothing?" Guess what, folks, if you didn't spend so much, it (probably) wouldn't have been "nothing".
So in response to a medical condition, let's increase awareness and knowledge about ergonomics, develop solutions, roll it out industry-wide, and perform audits check and maintain compliance. Then, when the condition declines, let's label the whole thing "hysteria".
Brilliant.
I ocasionly get numbness in my hands... usually it happens after I sleep on them for a few hours, but I'm sure it's because of the typing that I do.
/. users seem to think - rather that it is a valid personal injury that can occur. However, it is my opinion that you are responsable for ensuring that you are taking care of your own body. This may mean that you have to be responsable for your own RSI injuries. If you employer won't let you take a break from typing, go work elsewhere. I'm sure they will reconsider if they realize they will lose your skills.
I've been typing for nearly 15 years and I think my carps are suffering for that. However, there are a few things that __I__ accept as my personal responsability:
1. I chose this lifestyle. I may not have fully understood the risks, but that's my own fault.
2. It is not the fault of my employer (past, present, or future) for my career choices - if I were working in a factory, I'd wear safety shoes.
3. While I feel that my carps _are_ squished (which is what cts is), I don't seem to suffer pain from them.
Carporal(sp) Tunnels, btw, are nerve bundles that run up the arm to the hand. They are divided into two sections - half for your thumb and index finger side and half for the other side. These nerve bundels exist in a tunnel - the carporal(sp) tunnels. The positions that a lot of people take when typing - putting excess weight or pressure on the wrists - can cause the tunnels to collapse. When this happens, nerve signals are interruped from that section of the hand - causeing numbness in part (or whole) of the hand.
I do not believe it is a "made-up" illness - that some
That is all.
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Computer Science: solving today's problems tomorrow.
Price, Quality, Time. Pick none. What, you thought you had a choice?
As for myself, I never had Carpal Tunnel Syndrome, but I have developed nasty cases of tendonitis during long coding sessions. However, I've found that if I arrange my workspace in such a way that both of my elbows are resting on the desk when I type, I almost never have any problems.
Just because I've found a way to minimize chances for reducing future re-occurrances of my tendonitis doesn't mean I didn't have a real problem in the past...
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Interesting... I have always credited the fact that my wrists have always felt fine with the fact that I am also a guitarist. I play a steel string acoustic in a loose fingerpicking style; to those who aren't guitarists, this translates to stiff strings that are manipulated individually with seperate fingers (no pick, no strumming... well, not what most non-guiatrists would term strumming).
I have my guitar hanging on the side of the rack holding all my workstation (and development server, MP3 server and A/V equipment). Every couple of hours, I click over to my songbook (maintained as a PDF from chordpro files), and play a few songs. You can generally tell how my coding is going by what I play.
I've always felt that the alternate hand positions (curled right wrist, tilted left wrist) and complex finger manipulations tends to balance out my typing position. I know that without a guitar, I can feel it when I've been typing all day (actually, heavy all-day mousing seems to hit my wrist harder. Perl can work in NT too, remember... that saved my wrists in the past).
Okay... the above has rambled damn well enough. I just slept through the afternoon, and it sure shows.
--
Evan
"$30 for the One True Ring. $10 each additional ring!" -- JRR "Bob" Tolkien
So is group hysteria, and Carpal Tunnel is probably the *least* common RSI.
If we had everyone actually coming down with carpal tunnel syndrome, then we'd have a lot of *extremely* unhappy people. The surger is harsh, I believe they do both wrists at once, and you lose the use of your hands during recovery, so you can't even wipe your own ass.
Ergonomics are as important as ever; I've had debilitating wrist pains from typing before. Granted, I never blamed them on my employer, or carpal tunnel syndrome. I blame myself, for a) not exercising enough and b) not bothering to watch my posture.
In the three years that I have been suffering from this pain (usually just a slight twinge in my wrist and the palm of my hand, but occasionally reaching up to my elbow or even to my shoulder) I have not had to undergo surgery, wear a brace, or even take any kind of pain killer or anti-inflamatory drug. What I have done is obtain a host of assistive ergonomic devices (wrist support pads for keyabord and mouse, and assorted 'ergonomic' keyboards and trackballs) and pay extra attention to the position of my arms and body while I'm working at the computer.
I've spent several hundred dollars on these accomodations (all of it my own money) and I've been able to reduce the pain from the arm numbing agony I was experiencing in 1999 to slight twinges in the hand and wrist. There may be folks for whom CT, and other RSI's, are real debilitating disorders, but not for me.
That said, I wouldn't be suprised to find lots of folk exagerating the seriousness of their problems in order to get some concession out of employers in tight labor markets. Similarly, I wouldn't be suprised to find that, with the loosening of the labor market, there has also been a reduction in CT/RSI claims: the sqeaky wheel quiets down when there's less grease to be had, if it knows what's good for it.
Yeah, I get that symptom too. I get it when I rest the corner of my elbows on the edge of the table and cut off my ulnar nerve. It's a freaky feeling, non?
Lowmag.net
Ever want to know what carpal tunnel feels like?
1. Locate a friend and an 8 pound sledge hammer
2. Place your wrist on an anvil (train tracks work nicely too).
3. Have your friend bring the sledge hammer up over his head, and swing downwards allowing your wrist to stop the motion of the hammer before it hits the anvil.
Over the next few days/months, you will experience the exact same feeling that people with carpal tunnel experience. Fun isn't it?
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But yeah, emacs people seem to get hit a lot. What's more, in a group of emacs people I know, the RSI diagnosis of choice turned out to be ulnar nerve compression---and we all got the diagnosis before we found out the details of the other people. "Ulnar nerve compression---that's funny, that's what my doctor was thinking...."
I just switched the mouse to the LEFT side and I've never had problems since. I was overusing my right arm.
It took about a week of cursing, but pretty soon everything worked out.
It's quite fascinating how the body learns and how it can adapt. At first my movements were like watching a 5-year-old play a video game - lots of concentration and emotion, but a pretty low score. Little by little my fine motor skills developed and the mouse cursor ended up where it was supposed to. Now I'm pretty much ambidextrous mouse-wise.
Another side effect is in FPS games, I use a left-handed mouse, and my right hand uses the cursor keys for movement. This is a little more intuitive for me.
You take it with food. Food first; buffered analgesic afterwards. That way it doesn't attack the stomach lining so quick. Best to avoid coffee with it too.
Simon
Coming soon - pyrogyra
I have every reason to believe it is a combination of things, including stress which causes it. When people are stressed they tend to stiffen up their muscles, they tend not to relax them and I think this creates the environment for the problem to show up.
There is also the possibility it may in some cases be caused by another ilness, something similar to the flu and which simply agitates the system causing what would otherwise be ignored and quickly go away to get worse.
I had to quit playing Black & White because of it. I bet I could start playing it a few days from now (currently dehydrated a bit from a recent flu) and it wouldn't bother me much, if at all.
When I start feeling any symptoms I tend to change my posture, I change how I do tasks and, I event went so far as to remove my wristwatch. I happen to wear my watch on my right wrist, and I the same hand for the mouse. Sometimes this causes problems; and the watch restricts my movement.
Decent keyboards, realistic posture, and less stress (I expect I'll have the same job tomorrow I have today.. unlike 5 years ago... etc) are probably the main reason it has disapeared.
but it got better. It must have been a hysterical illusion, along with the 220lb linebacker who hit me.
Doctors trained with a bias towards intervention tend underestimate the body's capability to heal. I read recently of a meta-analysis study that indicated this is behind the infamous "placebo effect" -- things just get better on their own. This makes total sense to me. Medically trained researchers so underestimate the body's own healing powers that they'd sooner attribute spontaneous recovery to an almost mystical force called the "placebo effect" than thinking of including simple rest and waiting as an experimental group.
In this case, the researcher is invoking "hysteria" in a similar vein. If somebody's keyboard induced RSI gets better, it must be some kind of insidious psychological phenomenon causing the person to report a non-existent condition. <sacrasm>That's certainly a more reasonable explanation than assuming the patient just got better without some kind of heroic action on the part of the doctor.</sarcasm>
One of the worst parenting experiences I've ever had was when my daughter's pediatrician wanted to perform an invasive test for a certain condition. I asked him (a) what the prevelance of the condition was in the population; (b) how the symptoms he saw affected this baseline probability and (c) what the statistical properties of the test were (false negatives and positives). He couldn't answer any of this. It was a hunch. I went along, against my instincts, because he browbeat me into it, even though he could not justify the test on objective grounds nor did he have the statistical information necessary to interpret the test (which in the event was negative as I expected).
The point of this story is that MDs (among which I have several personal friends) practice an art rather than a science. They have to go on what the prevailing standards of practice are and their own instincts much of the time, since they lack the scientific data to make an objective judgement (and in some cases lack the mathematical sophistication, which is somewhat less forgiveable).
The less than scientific nature of medical practice is what is responsible for fads in diagnosis, not defective personalities in the patients.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
When I was at school (say about 17) I spent every break in the computer lab, and thought I was enjoying myself, but I wasn't really stretching myself - I was more in the habit of going and tinkering than actually getting on and doing something fun.
About this time I started getting pain in the back of my hands down over my fingers. I found it hard to hold a pen or type. It was painful, it was real. It wasn't happening 100% of the time - it came and went, but bouts could last all day.
Then one day, when my hands had been fine all morning, I went to the computer lab for break. At the exact instant I passed through the door of the lab, pain shot down the back of both hands. I stopped, stunned, looked down at my hands and said "You b*st*rds". For the pain to have happened at that point it could only be stress. The pain went and didn't come back until years later - at which point I realised I was stressed out and (while not typing less) took steps to organise myself and remove stress - hey presto the pain went away.
So it is painful. It is real. It can be crippling. And I am prepared to believe that for many people it's not psychological. But for me - and I'm sure many others - it is.
Peter.
(Now 29, very busy Software Engineer, RSI-free).
I'd like to see Dr. Shorter tell my wife that the pain is all in her head.
;-)
No, no, she's imagining that it's in her hands, not her head.
You'd have to surgically remove her hands from his throat.
Nope, won't help. Phantom Limb Syndrom (or Phantom Limb Phantom Pain Syndrom, in this case) would be a problem.
On the other hand, what struck me[...]
So, one hand is in pain, and she's hitting you with the other one?! Time for some serious mariage consuling, here.
The term is used as shorthand
Well, if she's already deformed, I guess she was prone to such injury. Hardly a valid sample demographic....
--
Aaron Sherman (ajs@ajs.com)
It's not that global warming doesn't exist, it's that it isn't a big problem, and that it *is* relative.
A letter to the editor in the Globe&Mail today brought up my favourite point - the Vikings were farming Greenland successfully in the Middle Ages. It obviously was a lot warmer then than it is now, and that is well before the industrial revolution.
Nevermind the dinosaurs who roamed Northern Alberta back when the climate was hot and humid.
I fucking hate environmentalists who don't research things in any more depth than is presented in the Greenpeace pamphlets. (Yes, if it gets warmer, diebacks will occur. In a word, deal.)
--
If a tree falls on an anonymous coward yelling 'first post' in the forest, does anybody hear?
Oh here are a few.
Before the election.
We will pull out our troops out of kosovo.
Soon after the election.
We will let the israelis and the palestenians settle their own disputes.
We will not bail out Turkey
We will back out of the Kyoto Treaties (global warming is not real).
Guess what the troops are staying in kosovo for a long time, turkey got something like 3 billion dollars, the US is now actively trying to broker a treaty in the occupied lands, and Bush is going to Europe to see if he can save face with the kyoto treaty.
Add to that the following whoppers.
We did not apologize to china
It's possible to drill for oil in alaska while preserving nature.
We will vigorously defend the roadless initiative.
Oh yea the arsenic thing was pretty funny too.
I guess none of that is as important as "I did not sleep with monica lewinsky" to the republicans but then again they were obsessed with the size, shape and whereabouts of Bill Clintons cock. I saw Ann Coulter describing Bill Clintons cock on Fox news or MSNBC or one of those other republican media outlets one time and I just about died laughing. She was talking about the shape of his cock and how Paula Jones was going to "kiss it". It was oddly pornographic yet hilarious at the same time.
I never understood why you guys became so obsessed with the whereabouts of Bill Clintons cock so much, I still don't.
War is necrophilia.
I, like most others, use "improper form" when typing. From what I remember of my typing class from hell in 7th grade, "proper form" consisted of raising the wrists/forearms above the level of the keyboard, so that you fingers pushed down from above, rather than "stretching" to the keys.
This does seem ideal, however, it is tiring - and we are all lazy here. It is tiring holding your arms up at that position. Building a wrist rest to that height wouldn't help matters any, because more pressure would be placed on the carpal region.
What if, instead of that, the keyboard was angled more sharply at the rear, so that the "pushing" of the keys came back and the "stretching" to the keys was lessoned - a wrist rest could still be used, but the stretching would be minimized - maybe that would help more?
Worldcom - Generation Duh!
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
Ditto here.
Most frequent problem: pain on the back of my right wrist caused by excessive mouse activity during marathon sessions (2-3 days of 6-12 hours) of real-time-strategy games, which require repetitive and accruate drag-and-drop operations.
Most effective solution: Stop when it starts to hurt. Duh. I lay off the games for a week. Pain goes away within 24 hours.
At the orkplace, my posture is atrocious - wrists resting on the desk in front of my non-ergo keyboard. Screen is dead-center at eye-level, 18 inches away from me. Seat is typically tilted backwards by about 5-10 degrees. Feet are resting on a footrest, as opposed to dangling in midair (OK, I do one thing right!). Elbows typically sit on chair arms. 8 hours a day, 10 years, no problems. Lighting? I'm a cave-dweller, yanking out fluorescents on sight. The 21" screen provides most of the light for my workspace. 1280x1024 and small fonts, woo-hoo! More stuff to read on each screenful of information. (OK, I do one other thing right - rather than reading screens in landscape mode, e.g. 80x24, I read in portrait, e.g. 80x80 strips. Eyes scan down the screen, not across. Feels like reading a book.)
Conclusion: RSI and other ergo problems are real. They are also entirely preventable.
What was important about my atrocious posture at work was that (for me), it's comfortable.
If it ceases to be comfortable, I change it or rejig my workspace until it is comfortable.
I'd also like to modify my conclusion somewhat. I'd originally written:
> Conclusion: RSI and other ergo problems are real. They are also entirely preventable.
I'd like to add one thing -- RSI is entirely preventable in my office.
A few posts ago, someone made a comment to the effect that many RSI sufferers were just lookin' for a settlement. While I somewhat sympathize with the sentiment, I'd like to take issue with it.
While I have no doubt that some RSI sufferers are (I'm using the stereotype for a reason, bear with me) lazy, good-fer-nuthin' civil-servant clerks or other data entry drones just lookin' for a fat disability check or settlement, I'd point out that it's precisely those low-skill, high-stress, Dilbertian-work-environment jobs where the workers are the least likely to be able to fix their ergonomic problems.
At my office, I'll ask a few cubemates if they hate fluorescents. If enough of us in a given cube-grouping agree they suck, we come to a consensus about which bulbs we can yank without disturbing those who do like lots of light, and we yank the offending bulbs. Likewise, if there's glare from a nearby window making it hard to read the monitor, we block the window. Or we move the gear around the cube so the window's no longer a factor. Presto-changeo, no more eyestrain.
Doing either of these things at a government workplace would probably be grounds for termination.
I have a hunch that for RSI, it's the same deal. My posture sux0rz, but I feel more comfortable that way than The Right Way? My employer doesn't care. I get tired and want to walk away from the desk for a while? I will.
If I worked for the government, I'd probably have the Ergo Police writing me up for violations and forcing me to configure my workspace in a way that would give me an RSI, and my manager writing me up for taking 10.5 minutes, rather than 4.2 minutes, whenever I take a dump.
The next time you think most RSI complainants are BSing, consider the working environment of the typical RSI complainant.
If the typical low-level gummint data entry drone is more likely (by virtue of being $STEREOTYPICAL) to exaggerate their symptoms, keep in mind that (by virtue of being supervised by equally-$STEREOTYPICAL managers!) they're also more likely to have the symptoms as a direct result of their employer's poor working environment.
Blaming the Western Diet for all that ails you sets off my quackometer ;-)
> I've changed my diet, and my tendonitis has gone down considerably. Typing less would eliminate the problem, but hey...0 0.html
> > http://www.drweil.com/database/display/0,1412,72,
You mean this Dr. Andrew Weil, as featured on Quackwatch.
Stephen Barret (operator of Quackwatch) on Weil in an interview is particularly caustic:
Color me skeptical.
(I don't dispute that your symptoms went away after you changed your diet. I do dispute that this implies a causal relationship between your dietary change and your tendonitis relief.)
Me? I had RSI in my right hand from wanking far too often. I tried my left hand, but it wasn't the same. So I got a g/f who'd give me head six times a day while I reconditioned the muscles in my right hand by repeatedly lifting 12-oz weights (usually Guinness, but sometimes Murphy's Stout), and the pain went away after a few weeks. Alcohol consumption and blowjobs are the obvious cure for RSI. (Just don't tell her I'm cured!)
He's NOT SAYING THE PAIN ISN'T REAL. So get off your high horses and read the damned article.
He's saying that for some people, the pain, WHICH IS REAL, does not necessarily have an entirely physiological cause. Namely, nothing is wrong in the arm, but they still hurt because they've heard about RSI.
Is it still debilitating? yes. Should they still be treated? yes. But the point is that the enormous media coverage itself may be causing the problem in many people.
If so, it's important to discuss this as a possible problem, instead of blindly bashing the author.
He's right when he says that pain perception is a very complicated issue and the brain has alot of control in what it perceives as pain.
So can we stop flaming and start thinking for a second?
-Brad
Don't underestimate the power of the mind. It's a well-documented fact that, for instance, people will report feeling hot more often and estimate the temperature in the room to be much higher if accompanied by someone complaining that "it's hot in here!"
Pain is notoriously subjective, and while tendonitis is a real condition, many people who have heard of the problem and have an unhappy workplace might focus their feelings of dissatisfaction on their hands and wrists even if they don't have tendonitis. I know mine are twinging more as I write this because I'm thinking about it.
So to say that sometimes disease sufferers are suffering from a psychosomatic rather than a physical condition does not suggest that the disease doesn't exist or that people who report problems are "faking it." Psychosomatic most emphatically does NOT suggest it's being faked (i.e. someone who is pain free is reporting pain to gain sympathy in a court trial) but that its origin is in the mind.
Mass hysteria is a fascinating subject--witness the fainting spells that would communicate through suggestion in Vienna during Freud's time. Witness the waking dreams accredited to UFO abduction now versus demonic possession in the 1600s versus not at all in Japan. Suggestibility is also a fascinating subject: it is notoriously easy to suggest an alternate version of events to an eyewitness and get them to swear that something happened that didn't happen ("Now, did the man with the green sweater cross the street in front of or behind the car wreck?" when in fact there was no man in a green sweater).
So someone who studies these phenomena is not, ipso facto, out to prove they don't exist.
In related news, the moon landing was a hoax, the holocaust never happened, and the American Indians are actually the long lost 12 tribes of Israel.
People can call anything a hoax and drag up enough circumstancial "evidence" to "prove" their point. More often than not, it's a case of people not wanting to believe the truth, or creating controversy.
-Ted
Stand up. Put your hands at your sides, so your palms are touching the outside of your thighs. (e.g. as if you were lining up for the drill sergeant.) Notice how your thumb points towards your front, and your pinky points toward your back. This is position #1.
e.g.
Now keeping your elbow beside your body, raise your hands up 90 degrees so your arms form a L and your thumbs are pointing upwards. (Think of shaking someone's hand.) Now rotate your hands inwards so your thumbs are pointing towards each other. And finally, move your hands together so your thumbs are touching. This is position #2.
Notice the "unnatural" angle your wrists are making in position #2, while the "natural" position of shaking someone's hand doesn't put your wrist in constrained positions.
RSI is real. I have personally noticed symptons over the last few years. After typing all week, I would get a inflamation in my wrists while driving on the weekend. Hurts like hell, and nothing you can do makes it go away. Fortunately it would only as 30 mins.
I switched over to M$ natural keyboard, since there is more space between the TGB and YHN keys versus the traditional keyboard. It is certainly not the best ergonomic keyboard, but I notice that if I go back to a normal keyboard, my wrists tend to get sore.
Interestinly enough I haven't had any symptons of RSI since I started taking Aikido and doing the standard wrist stretches. e.g. Ikkajo, Nikajo, Sankojo, and Kote-gaeshi.
Disclaimer: Consult a qualified doctor before doing any stretches, etc.
Cheers
but probably more complex than just "my keyboard made my wrists hurt" - I know I was typing for 15 years before my tendonitis kicked in and I had to wear a wrist brace for 5 years more. On the other hand I'm pretty sure that the thing that kicked off my pain was not typing - but having kids and all the lifting and bouncing etc involved .... getting a laptop seemed to be the thing that finally fixed it for me - maybe not just because of the less stressfull angle that I hold my wrists at but also because I use a traditional keyboard a bit as well which means I have lots of different ways to work
Tried several other trackballs but unfortunately they just didn't quite compare to the one signed with the mark of the beast hehe.
Seriously though, Microsoft makes outstanding hardware. Maybe it's because I've used them for so long, bu Microsoft mouses (mice?) just *feel* right. When I have to use some custom mouse from Compaq or something, I really notice how crappy other people's designs are.
I also got me one of them split-down-the-middle Microsoft keyboards (why can't I remember their name?) and DAMN it feels good to have the wrists in straight angles to the keys! There's also this cool little proggy that will let you assign any command you want to the round blue shortcut buttons along the top of the keyboard.
(Even more OT: It seems to me that when Microsoft wants to extend a tentacle into a new market, the pretty much always know how to do it right. Evidence: hardware, the upcoming Windows Messenger in WinXP, the upcoming Xbox, web browsers, etc. The list goes on. Just thinkin' out loud...)
---
python -c "x='python -c %sx=%s; print x%%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))%s'; print x%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))"
Often, real RSI sufferers are reluctant to seek the help that goes along with a government check. We love our machines too much. I for one, suffer through the aches, stiff joints, numbness, and keep a-typin.
I've a very rapid typer. Quite fast, in fact. I've been typing since I was 9 years old, and around the age of 21, I started to feel sharp pains in the back of my shoulders, in my elbows, in my wrists, and sometimes even tingling in my finger tips.
I assumed forever that this sensation was carple tunnel syndrom, and that it would only get worse in time. In fact, it did get worse for a very long time until one day I moved my computer desk and bought a new chair.
Oddly enough, I didn't ever feel uncomfortable in my previous chair, and my new one never really felt any more or less comfortable. But the pains vanished none the less. I've been pain free now for about 5 years.
And to think, I was actually considering surgery.
"Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"
"Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"
Moderation Totals: Wrong=2, Stupid=3, Total=5.
I think I agree about the "faking," but not for the causes you site. Not to dismiss the suffering of people who are genuinely afflicted, but I've noticed a strange pattern of RSI among friends of mine.
It seems that many of them are conveniently stricken when they want to get out of the computing industry anyway, but can't seem to admit it to themselves. One guy I knew took an early retirement when he was diagnosed with RSI, and another friend was starting to question what he really wanted to do with his life when he "came down" with it. It's like they're subconciously looking for a way out without having a concrete plan of what they'd rather do, and this malaise gives them cause to quit. They do, and bam, symptoms go away. But of course they can't return to work because it would lead to a flare up of symptoms.
I don't know. Again, I don't mean to dis anyone's particular situation. It's just kind of shady sometimes, from what I've seen.
---
1) Repeated repetitive movements cause pain in both my wrists. I tend to avoid the activities that cause the pain, so I have avoided CTS to date.
2) A friend of mine has this condition, and I am sorry, but seeing her struggle to pick up a fucking cup of coffee is no hoax.
Feed the need: Digitaladdiction.net
That's not Advil, that's Tylenol. The massive liver damage is very specific to acetaminophen. The other drugs bother your liver *far* less; the real problem is that they decrease the secretion of protective mucus in your stomach and can lead to bleeding gastric ulcers (hint: bad).
And as several other people pointed out, acetaminophen has no anti-inflammatory effect, only anti-pain, so you don't want to take it for RSI anyway.
Comment: Repetitive stress injuries are real. Even if they are a matter of "hysteria", the pain is real. If a person thinks they are in pain, then they are actually in pain. Pain is subjective. Perception is reality...
Resource: The Facts About Repetitive Strain Injuries
How to Download YouTube Videos
Edward Shorter is the history of medicine chairman at the University of Toronto that is quoted in the article. Here is a page that seems like a review of his work on RSI. Mildly useful.
From Paralysis to Fatigue: A History of Psychosomatic Illness in the Modern Era
The Kennedy Family and the Story of Mental Retardation
Bedside Manners
So, the point of these links is this: This dude's whole career is based on bashing illness. He seems to think that almost any illness or disease is in the mind.
The pain in your wrist, elbow, arm, and back is fake. Do you hear me? Fake! Just ask Edward...
How to Download YouTube Videos
#611: People on Slashdot assuming they are more intelligent on a particular topic than the "world's leading" authority. A person in this position does not state things at random, duh!
It's a well known fact that dealing with repetitively stupid questions on tech support leads to a near constant pain in the ass. In fact, I only have to read a story like this and my ass starts hurting in sympathy for all the tech support people who had to deal with questions relating to it.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
How about if RSI has been an occupational hazard since the 19th century.
Telegraph operators spent their working lives pounding out dots and dashes on a vertical up and down key. And many developed a condition that was then called "Glass Arm", but is now called RSI.
In fact there were many designs for ergonomic keys that worked sideways instead vertical, the most popular and effective was the Bug (invented in 1904) which would make a dash when held in one direction and a series of dots when held in the other, requiring far less movement to operate.
It has been known for over a century that repetative up and down movements of the fingers and wrist, similar to that involved in typing, can cause a longterm painful injury to the wrists.
We've had typewriters since at least 1868, but 'RSI' and 'carpel tunnel' only became news in the last few years... what has changed?
Perhaps there is something unnatural not just with the 'correct' way of touch typing, but also due to the way the computer keyboard and monitor are placed on the desk and operated as oppposed to the way a typewriter is operated.
I do not deploy Linux. Ever.
What typing method do you use?
Have you read the article on Dvorak keyboards in the latest 'The Perl Journal' ?
I do not deploy Linux. Ever.
Be that good, bad, or indifferent -- It's infotainment -- After all, if you really want scientific information, you'd read a scientific journal.
Advil (along with other over-the-counter painkillers) is also well known for causing liver damage, including acute hepatic failure in rare cases. Large doses and alcohol exacerbate this effect.
"Although the majority of ibuprofen overdosages are not very serious, acute renal failure, hepatic failure, and hypotension and coma have been described" "Tissue levels of ibuprofen after fatal overdosage of ibuprofen and acetaminophen." Steinmetz JC, Lee CY, Wu AY.
"In the group of propionic acid derivatives, ibuprofen, pirprofen and naproxen have been implicated in hepatitis of various types" "[Hepatitis due to nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory agents]" Furet Y, Metman EH, Breteau M, Bertrand J.
"Ninety years ago aspirin was discovered, and within the last forty years phenylbutazone, indomethacin, ibuprofen, the oxicams and many others were discovered. All of these drugs are acidic. They inhibit the prostaglandin synthetase, combine analgesic and anti-inflammatory activity and show side-effects mainly in the GI-tract, liver, bone-marrow, and kidney...Intensive hepatic metabolisation may be related to enhanced hepatic damage...These observations indicate that certain pharmacokinetic characteristics of distinct nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs) are responsible, at least in part, for well-known side-effects." "Towards safer nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs." Brune K, Beck WS.
This could also be interesting reading:
"Drug-induced hepatic injury: an analysis of 1100 cases reported to the Danish Committee on Adverse Drug Reactions between 1978 and 1987." Friis H, Andreasen PB.
The article is not about whether they hurt, it's about whether they are a permanaent injury, or something that magically goes away if people can get away from their keyboards for a while.
Got Rhinos?
I'm tired of all these Karma whores writing "insightful" and "informative" responses to articles they haven't read.
Got Rhinos?
Doesn't Alex Chiu have something to combat repetitive stress injuries?
Got Rhinos?
I agree with you 100% -- In fact, I think for me it was the mousewheel that did it. Since I shut that off, and started using the keyboard for everything but web browsing, my wrist has gotten a lot better. I second your comment!
BTW: If you have tendonitis, a lot of doctors will tell you to take Advil (or a generic version of it). That's because Advil is an anti-inflamitory drug that actually reduces the swelling in your wrist. Since the swolen tendons is what is causign all the friction (which causes more pain and more swelling), reducing it is a Good Thing. Other pain killers will 1: not reduce the swelling, and 2: ease the pain, allowing you to cheerfully type away and hurt yourself more.
Yep! Advil is an NSAID (Non-Steroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug). Any NSAID will have the same (or similar) effect.
However, be warned that NSAIDs are not a magic bullet; constant use of them has been shown to cause stomach ulcers/bleeding.
If you type a lot, get an ergonomic keyboard (the Microsoft Natural Keyboard Pro is a great piece of hardware) and a decent chair (I highly recommend the Aeron Chair if you can afford it -- it's like floating on air, even after sitting it for hours on end!). Your body will thank you!
--
Actually, this is explained by Masamune Shirow in his notes for the manga (upon which the movie is based).
According to Shirow, the typist in that scene belonged to an older generation that reached maturity before the advent of reliable commercial direct-to-brain electronic interfaces.
As a result, he was typically uncomfortable with the idea of some "newfangled cyber-doctor" shoving wires into his brain, but was willing to accept older and more proven surgery on his hands to radically increase his data input rate.
On a side note, Shirow is generally pretty obsessive about documenting the technical concepts in his work. He often includes fairly large appendices containing a wealth of background philosophical, mystical, and technical information - most of it apparently to justify the "look and feel" of his characters and equipment.
Shirow regularly acknowledges the maintenance costs of high-tech solutions, and suggests that this is the main challenge facing gov't and military purchasers when selecing new hardware.
Any sufficiently well-organized community is indistinguishable from Government.
Tendonitis is far more common, in my experience -- I'd like to have seen that discussed in this context.
Agreed. I was recently diagnosed with DeQuervain's Tenosynovitis, a painful inflamation of the tendons that move the thumb and its tendon sheath. In my case, it started without apparent reason as a general soreness around the bone that sticks out as a bump at the base of the thumb, combined with nasty sharp pains with certain movements of my hand. My first thought was "Carpal Tunnel Syndrome?" since a friend in the IT industry had been diagnosed with this. As you say, CTS is "the flu" of hand injuries.
A word of warning: After my doctor told me what I had I, naturally I checked the web to find out more about it. Many of the pages (but not this one) describe "Finkelstein's test" along the lines of: "form a fist with the thumb inside, then move sharply outwards." DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME! - I did, and was in extreme pain for some time afterwards (and made some rather pointed remarks about Finkelstein's parentage...) I also made the overall problem several times worse that it was and set the healing back at least a week. As the link above explains, this description is wrong and can cause pain even in normal hands. The correct test as described in the link is what my doctor used.
"Curiosity killed the cat."
Besides switching to an ergonomic keyboard, I started practising Aikido (Japanese martial art) a year ago. I've never had major problems since then. Aikido puts a lot of controlled stress on the wrists so my guess is that this helps keeping them elastic. Go find a DoJo in your vicinity at: http://www.aikiweb.com/search/ ;-)
DI Robert Lichtenberger effad@gmx.at
I'm a Unix Admin and C/Perl coder/scripter ... I have had various degrees of these types of pains. They way I could remove them is taking three golf balls into the palms of my hands (palms up) and rotate the balls around for a few minutes each day. The pains went away with in weeks and have not had pains for quite some time now.
.. i'll get the ol' three golf balls out for a few minutes ....
Every once in a while if I feel the pains to even start to come back
Ryan
Once you have a genuine RSI injury, you never recover - you live with it. I had wrist, hand and shoulder pain and went through two months of physical therapy, and now work at an ergonomic bi-level table. I'm fine most of the time, but pain can come back if I use my PC improperly (particularly with mousing) or I stop doing certain flexing exercises. A healthy person can do all sorts of "improper" things with their PC use and think RSI is a hoax, but after you sustain an RSI injury it makes all those simple things much more prone to pain. I relish the old days of 6+ hour sessions at the computer, not giving a damn what angle my arm was at, where my wrist was sitting, etc.
But, many people clump all RSIs are CTS. Some doctors will either decide Carpal tunnel or tendinitis. If it's CTS they cut, if it's tendinitis, they use drugs and tell you to change careers.
What you have to keep in mind is that if you rest, there will be reocvery. If you correct the ergonomics, and rest it won't be a problem after you recover. If you put your hand in a fire, take it out, then let it heal, your hand won't hurt.
Fight Spammers!
I sued Mattel for trying to shut me up by using illegal litigation. Just like they did with others.
Keep in mind, if you say something they don't like, they may try to bankrupt you with litigation. And as a condition of settlement, they would require you to only say nice things about them.
Fight Spammers!
I spent three weeks in Hoboken, NJ and don't have lung cancer, so lung cancer must not exist.
They have shown that people with CTS have denervations in the median nerve that are relieved with surgery. I find that to be convincing evidence of a condition.
You don't need a 1:1 correlation on cause and effect to establish an existence of a condition. Things besides typing cause CTS and other RSIs.
Fight Spammers!
However, my wife DOES have CTS, due to many employers refusing to deal with ergonomics. One even fired her for it, right after they refused to to get her an ergo keyboard. I don't want to say who it was or anything, but if you live in Arizona, it's the utility company with "The Power to Make it Happen.(disappear)"
Know what helped that? Not surgery, thats for damn sure. Weekly massage therapy and an hour a night with her arms up to the shoulders in ice water. That is true pain, really. I would definitely suggest holistic methods for getting rid of it thought, you will keep the use of your hands during recovery, and if it doesnt work, at least you don't have 6" scars in your wrists and no use of your arms below the elbows.
"See, we plan ahead! That way, we never have to do anything now."
Seems to me that most "discoveries" in medicine nowadays (at least in America) follow a similar pattern:
- Medical journal makes announcement of new breakthrough treatment/drug/cause/prevention technique. Rest of medical community hails this as a major breakthrough.
- American public spends billions of dollars, either their own or their insurance companies, on said breakthrough.
- Fast forward 2-3 years, when another medical journal reports findings that are the exact opposite of what the original journal found.
- Repeat until public is paranoid of everything, and quite willing to pay any amount of money to cure the "affliction of the month".
Wow, that's cynical even for me. Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of doctors, researchers, etc out there doing some great work. Mostly I blame the media I guess (yeah, there's an easy target). Every disease is a death sentence, every cure a life saver on the 10:00 news.
I mean if it takes over a hundred years to discover that most stomach ulcers are caused by a bacteria; perhaps all these diseases are symptoms of a viruses that spread and only very occasionally cause these symptoms in some of the affected people.
;-)
After all, most diseases that we hear of are the nasty ones. But nasty diseases don't tend to last as well as the (mostly) innocuous ones.
Perhaps CTS is caused by a virus that has passed its epidemic! Just because they can't find a cause, doesn't mean that there isn't one. If there was a virus that weakens the nerves in hands or something, how would we know? Who would look for it?
Maybe there was a virus that caused low blood sugar in the 70s too.
Or perhaps not...
-WolfWithoutAClause
"Gravity is only a theory, not a fact!"I don't know why I'm saying this, because /. is perpetually misrepresenting the articles it links to, but the article in question DOES NOT say that Carpal Tunnel Syndrome doesn't exist. Rather it says that there does not appear to be a link between keyboard use and carpal tunnel syndrome. (i.e. Office workers using regular keyboards, have the same incidence of carpal tunnel as the rest of society).
/. were told that they were not infected with HIV, they would conclude that AIDS is a big hoax...
I suppose that if the editors of
. --- If you're looking for free e-mail you won't find it here! http://www.noemailhere.com
Nearly every office, the government ones included, have learned that it is much cheaper to address pain before it becomes injury than after. Ignore the problem, and you end up with a very expensive workers' comp. claim on your hands.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
If you have pain in your wrist that doesn't go away after a day away from the keyboard, it does not mean you have permanent RSI damage yet. Change your ergonomics and/or work habits, and you may be back to being your old self. Or you could ignore the pain, pop a couple asprin, and end up crippling yourself. Your call.
BTW: If you have tendonitis, a lot of doctors will tell you to take Advil (or a generic version of it). That's because Advil is an anti-inflamitory drug that actually reduces the swelling in your wrist. Since the swolen tendons is what is causign all the friction (which causes more pain and more swelling), reducing it is a Good Thing. Other pain killers will 1: not reduce the swelling, and 2: ease the pain, allowing you to cheerfully type away and hurt yourself more.
In spite of articles like this... take care of your hands. Getting along without them would be tough.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
Here's a URL link to the article I just posted:
l
http://www.mayo.edu/comm/mcs/news/news_1633.htm
moo
for example, with hypnotism you can cause someone to experience and displayed the most amazing and diverse display of medical symptoms, all of which when examined by a doctor would be completely convincing.
Under such a situation, you could even have surgury ordered. But since the original cause would have been a hypnotic session, the symptoms would always return.
I do not recommend this as a personal experiment.
Under such a situation, the symptoms would be drastically real, regardless of the source. The problem is, of course, if you say to some one that it is "all in their mind" that the immediate reaction is that it is not real, that it is a fantasy. What that critic would need would be to live with a hynotically induced headache or toothache for a few days. This would be convincing as far was how much a fantasy it is. It would, of course, be under-helpful to criticise the person all along that they were imagining it all. The pain is real.
What all this seems to indicate is that there are multiple causes for the set of symptoms for Carpal Tunnel. And that mental conditions can contribute to the medical condition
and that the medical condition is quite quite real. Of course, do they know what it really is?
The list of hysterical diseases in the article is fascinating, but does not make even those conditions less real. Mis-diagnosed, maybe, but still real.
Of course, how are they going to treat this? just shout at everyone that they are hoaxing?
feh.
Check out the Vinny the Vampire comic strip
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
I started using computers around age 9/10 (a ZX81). Through the years I've progressed from machine to machine, and now it's my job - I'm a consultant. In the past few years I had been more careful about workstation setup (I helped do a workstation assesment at a 500 user site), but prior to this it was all sorts of fucked postures and ways of typing.
/. very much now, so it's unlikely that I'll see any replies to this post - I just thought it might be useful to someone.
Until just over 3 months ago, I'd never had a single problem - not even so much as a twitch, no aches, weird pains, numbness - NOTHING. Then one night my right arm just felt 'tense'. By morning it was mostly unusable and I couldn't comfortably lift a can of coke. Typing for greater than about 60 seconds led to severe pins+needles and burning pain in my lower arms and wrist, lasting for hours, calming back down to its normal ache after. I had to stop driving the car, I couldn't carry groceries or do the dishes, turning the front door key in the lock hurt. The left arm followed a few days later. I had to leave the contract I was on and go into sick leave, after being given some very good advice by a friend who has been in recovery now for 2 years. He suffers from Carpel Tunnel, but mine appears to be a different kind of RSI (note - in the UK this has now been renamed to "Overuse Syndrome" - I can see insurance companies using this definition to avoid claims...).
3 months on, and I can do 'about' an hour a day (it varies), and have had to give up gaming more or less entirely - thankfully they do recover after about 20 minutes now. I can't write on paper either because it causes the same problems, even channel surfing for about the same time will cause it to fire up again. Slowly, they ARE getting better, but that's with physiotherapy sessions (ultrasound, laser, massage) twice weekly , flexing exercises, and lots and lots of time to reflect at home, while I'm bored out of my skull. I don't know when I'll be truly able to work full time again.
I'd like the above to be advice for all you non sufferers. It doesn't always build up over time with noticable symtoms, it can just attack all in one go and without warning. If you get ANY issues at all that 'feel' more serious than just a tired wrist, for god sake SEE A DOCTOR and stop doing whatever causes it IMMEDIATELY. You might just end up with a week or so to recover. You might like me have a recovery time of months (if ever in terms of intensive working), you might end up like my friend with your arms in plastercast and unable to work without speech recognition software for a few years, or you might never recover to a usable level at all. It's career threatening, and the *really* scary thing is you might not get a warning. If I'd known how serious and real forms of RSI can be - I'd have found something else to do.
I'm afraid I don't read
james
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ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US!
Funny, same thing for me: I'm 29, been typing on computers since I was 10. Never had a problem 'till a year ago. First I noticed my wrists hurt from being turned in with normal keyboards. Then I switched to MS ergo. Shortly after, in between my finger started to hurt really bad b/c of longer reach to get to some keys. Now my company gave me a Goldtouch keyboard, and I keep it dialed out to ~30 horizontal AND vertical. It looks wacky, but damned if my fingers/wrists feel way better.
;)
But sadly, I think it's just old age.
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I am coming to believe that after many years of working in the computer field, working on an oil rig, or on a deep-sea trawler in the north Atlantic might be a bit safer. The dangers are understood, the safty regulations are in place and injuries are tangible.
Now that would give you RSI!
sulli
RTFJ.
Definitely some people claim RSI to make their jobs easier unfairly, but I can assure you that this shit is real.
So: Don't overwork your hands, you won't get any new ones!
sulli
RTFJ.
well stop doing that. the reason repetitive stress syndrome is on the wane is simple, people have changed their habits, and started using more ergonomic equipment. because therapy works doesn't mean the disease never existed. their example of the lady who was in so much pain that she had to stop typing for 4 years is silly, she stopped typing, so yes the pain went away, as if it was never there. how long did she type before it developed? given her rated typing speed, a long time, so it will take a long time before it shows up again, assuming she hasn't improved the way she works, but less time than it did the first time. if canada continues to deny the existence of repetitive stress syndrome then they'll probably have a rise in cases in a few years.
It seems to me that there is a lot of confusion about RSI...
I think that anyone that has used a keyboard for a serious amount of time has noticed those angry red areas that tend to show up on one's wrists, especially after a long day of typing.
This is NOT to be confused with ACTUAL repetitive strain injuries! This is like the difference between getting a headache, and having migranes...
"If at first you don't succeed, lower your standards."
Sure, my pain "just went away"...
After I quit working on the Macintosh keyboards, the puck mouse, and the picnic table "desk" that was up way too high.
Shooting pains are not just imagined. I couldn't write at home because my hand would freak at the slightest exertion of effort. My life is code and paper is my primary resource. I was crippled while working with the Macs. (OS X Server, incidentally, not that the OS matters too much, save with respect to how fast it lets you set your mouse speed.)
This reminds me of an experience with a coworker. He, a staunch republican, noted just how phony environmentalist concerns were. "A while ago, everyone was complaining about how CFC's would destroy the world by now. But see? Everything is perfectly fine." I said, "Well, yah; That's because you are forbidden to produce CFC's now, save in a few developing countries who's time is almost up." I suspect the same sort of thing going on here. We've learned to work around Carpal Tunnel, so well, that people think it's just a myth.
I was out stacking hay in my barn last night (no, really, I was!) and today my shoulders were a little sore. That's what a computer guy gets for doing physical labor, but I'm not going out saying I have hay-bailing shoulder syndrome. I simply overworked myself. Now, it would be possible to overwork myself to the point of doing damage, but just because there's a little pain doesn't mean that any real, permanent damage has been done. Same with CTS. Pain in the wrists doesn't mean you have carperal tunnel syndrome. That doesn't mean that CTS doesn't exist. But I think a lot of ergo companies made a lot of money selling ergo stuff that they wouldn't have been able to sell without all the hype, or as the article put it, "hysteria".
I'm glad that that pain in my wrist is not for real. I can feel it going away already... If it was not for this article, I would still think I am in pain. :)
I don't think Carpal Tunnel is a hoax, however I do think it's been way over used. I think for one thing that a number of people claiming carpal tunnel are just going after benefits, and that the massive number of people claiming injury are probably are fine. They might even believe it, one of those mind over matter things. I've felt pain at times, nothing bad mind you, but enough that I'm not willing to discount everyone.
The other thing I will say is that in MOST (not all, but most) of the cases of Carpal Tunnel I've seen, the people who get it and talk about it the most are people who need to get out more! And by get out more I mean walk further than from the computer to the mcdonalds dinner. If you're unhealthy and out of shape in general, it should come as no surprise that sitting around and using computers all day isn't going to make you a physically better peerson.
Scott
On the other hand, what struck me about the article was the emphasis on carpal tunnel syndrome. My impression is that very few people have that. The term is used as shorthand for RSI injuries in general, much as people talk about having "the flu" when they get a cold. Tendonitis is far more common, in my experience -- I'd like to have seen that discussed in this context.
Unsettling MOTD at my ISP.
is this.....is this for REAL?
great comedy company.
Hoax or not, I know my S*#$ hurts from time to time, but I dont know if its all keyboard involved.
*squirt*
EOU
Even though I am a techie who suffers from CTS, I can confirm that meat packers in particular are subject to RSI. Living in Northwest Texas, I reside within commuting distance of one of the largest beef-packing factories in the nation and know many people who work there. Any one 'on the cutting line' who does not eventually complain about arm, wrist, and hand pains from repetive use of electric knives and saws is an oddity.
Of course, with that many elective knives and saws, quite a few of these people also complain of missing appendages and nightmares about body parts in the ground beef...
The next Slashdot story will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and slashdot the links early!
Okay, i will avoid the WAY TOO EASY crack on "Canadian Officials", and simply point to the fact that many people, especially those responsible for large chunks of digital life as we know it, including Richar Stallman, emacs guru, and Jamie Zawinsky, mozilla guru, suffer from something, whatever you want to call it. You should really take a look at Jamie Zawinski's excellent page dealing with this fact, and only expect it to get more and more important as we progress into the age where people are typing starting at age 5.
Carpal tunnel, IMO, is one of those ailments largely invented by the ambulance chasing plantiffs lawyers.
I've never known anyone to have it, and I've worked with computers and people who work with and on computers for 9 years now.
I'm 29. I've had a computer ever since I was 8 years old (Commodore Vic-20). I've spent an EXCESSIVE amount of time using standard keyboards, many MANY hours a day, throught childhood, adolescence, and adulthood. No evidence of carpal tunnel for me. Surely, if it were to affect anyone, it would be me.
I've used nothing but standard QWERTY keyboards, I never cared for the strange "ergonomic" Microsoft keyboard or it's many clones, as I don't care to abandon 20 years of typing expertise and re-learn a skill that is vital to my job and recreation.
IMO, as the article implied, RSI is nothing more than a "fad" condition that lawyers and "labor groups" have used as a way to go after wallets.
=== The price of freedom is eternal vigilance
I think it's worth noting that this article cuts a very big swath through a complicated issue without much apparent justification. The evidence that there's "no such thing" as SRIs is basically anectdotal, with the exception of the one rather small and unscientific study at Mayo. I think it's a little irresponsible to then go and attribute it all to "hysteria." Yes, some impressive names and titles express the same opinion. But this is not real data, not real science. On the other hand, I have witnessed first hand, with conditions from tinnitis to panic attacks, how incredibly resistant people are to the idea that their ailments stem from their neorological physiology, rather than some more esoteric doohickey in the elbow, ear or heart. So all of you writing in to say "it is TOO real!" aren't demonstrating anything either.
It Is the Nature of Information to Transgress Artificial Boundaries
I find this question a little silly since the effects of RSIs can be measured quantifiably. I actually don't have carpal tunnel (gasp), but I do have ulnar entrapment, which is the same thing on a different nerve. I was tested for it, and the medical test involves measuring a certain length on your arm and sending currents through the nerve to see how well it works. The output is a numerical measurement of how well/poorly your nerve is working. Am I missing something here? Sure, there are fakers who haven't been tested, but faking the RSI nerve tests seems almost as difficult/absurd as faking an MRI or EEG. Or am I missing something here?
Well, i do not know what the fuss was about. It seems that the only people that were worried with this kind of thing came from developed countries, and here in Lithuania noone seems to care. I don't even know if there is a direct translation for RSI in Lithuanian. Maybe it is just because we have other more important problems.
Certain positions strain my wrists and hands; certain other positions don't.
Given that I can spend upwards of 100 hours a week on a keyboard, it's obvious I spend most of that time in positions that don't.
Some people may not be able to find such positions on available hardware and workspaces. OSHA rules meant to encourage employers to correct that problem were, predictably, turfed by the current administration.
Should everyone pay for that in terms of higher keyboard prices to cover lawsuits? I don't think we do. Fry's Electronics in San Jose has a big stack of keyboards priced at $2.99 each. (Ironically, they had the best sound and feel of any of the dozen models on the shelf; except the Enter key, which clanked like a Daihatsu trunk lid...)
The two phrases that best describe this issue are "IANAL" and "YMMV".
--Blair
Speaking as a sufferer of carpal tunnel and other repetitive-stress-injuries, aggravated by a genetic predisposition to arthritis, RSIs are -not- a hoax. However, for every one true RSI sufferer, there're probably a dozen fakers who smell a big lawsuit/government check, and claim mysterious pains here and there. These cases up and disappear whenever someone bothers to scruntinize them.. "What? See a doctor? Oh, I, uh, feel much better now. My wrists have healed! It's a miracle!". Often, real RSI sufferers are reluctant to seek the help that goes along with a government check. We love our machines too much. I for one, suffer through the aches, stiff joints, numbness, and keep a-typin. I use a wristwrest and try to keep my wrists/arms/hands at happy 90 degree angles like in those oh-so-nifty ergo diagrams, and I may as well own stock in Bayer for all the asprin I consume. And one day, when the arthritis sets in full force, I hope somebody's perfected cybernetics to the point I can buy new hands from Wal Mart. ;)
- Turq - "That's TRON, he fights for the users."
The National Post, the source for this article, is well known as an unashamedly pro-business newspaper. They frequently publish articles which defend existing business practices regardless of their cost - as an example, one of their regular columnists, Terrence Corcoran, is famous for his articles denying the existence of global warming.
In this case, it's likely that the article is intended to reduce the perception of employers' liability for their employees' carpal tunnel injuries, and thereby to dissuade those who are possibly suffering from seeking redress.
Toronto-area transit rider? Rate your ride.
I do not suffer from CTS (but I play someone who does on tv? sorry, mandatory joke 8-). The simple fact is that a neurologist can measure the neurologcal "static" associated with CTS. That means that it can't be "faked" in the presence of an honest and well-informed practitioner. This makes it "not a good candidate" for false claims. The test stings like a bitch if you aren't under general anestetic. A fact that alone could be responsible for the fakers taking a powder.
Factoid #1: There are exercises that can almost completely releive/remove the phenominia if started before the inflamation reaches the point of no return and a good sports-medicine doctor should be able to teach them to you. If you have reached the aforementioned point the exercises *can* bring you back but they are agonizing and so the sufferer usually can't stick to the regimine(sp?)
Factoid #2: The medical community sucks. A family friend (doctor) commited suicide after taking years abbuse from his coleagues in the AMA because he was trying to get general approval for a procedure where the neurologist would be in the opperating room taking measurements durring CTS surgery. Cutting to proceed until, and only until, the "static" was gone. His success rate was near 100%. Operating times were drastically lowered. Nobody had to come back for a second opperation. Virtually no complications. Recovery rates were usually 1/3 the time of the "normal" proceedure. In short it was faster _CHEAPER_ and better.
He was hounded to death.
Frankly there are a lot of things like this happening all around you, medically speaking. If you are male go to your doctor and tell him you have the symptoms of "Fibromyalgia" and you will get dismissed outright. "It only happens to women, men never get it." (and it's not like prostate cancer where there is some gender-unique feature of the body involved). With the predisposition of doctors to their views I wouldn't be surprised if cancer whent away "statistically" if it were declared financially unprofitable, and all those people were suddenly rediagnosed as having an imbalance of green and yellow bile...
Don't get me wrong. I am a great fan of doctors. At least the ones who will pay attention to you and work for you instead of an HMO or otherwise try to keep themselves "up stat". A truely good doctor combined with a good insurance carrier can be a breathtakingly positive and useful experience. If you are poor, uninsured, or not used to standing up to authority to get yourself heard-out your medical experience will, of course, suck.
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Innocent people shouldn't be forced to pay for inferior software development.
--"Code Complete" Microsoft Press
I thought as long as you take breaks from typing every 45 minutes or so with a pr0n break, your wrists should be okay. Or at least one of them.
This doctor is a moron. Of course the pain is something that shows up in the brain. That does not mean that the injury is bogus. It's because we have a central nervous system. I'd have thought that such a celebrated researcher of medicine had heard about the central nerveous system. The purpose of that is to send and receive signals to and from the brain. Damaged nerves is just as serious injury as other things. There's many documented examples of excellent piano players and golf players who get the "jips", which is a nerve injury.
I am not buying that this is hysteria. Instead I'd say that many of the common cures to the problem are bogus and snakeoil.
-- Another senseless waste of fine bytes.
b (owie) u (ouch) l (ah) l (yikes) s (medic!) h (arg) i (doh) t (uuhhhh)
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"i was saying gnu-rd"